Why I don’t like Christian music
Well, the title gives away my lack of passion for Christian music, so I am not going to do an inductive blog. There, I got it out. I don’t like Christian music. In fact, I think Christian music is wrong. I know that some of you are not going to agree with me, but I am right. You should simply concede your mind to me on this one. Okay, this may be an overstatement, but allow me to express my odd passion here anyway 
Why don’t I like Christian music? That is a good question. I have often asked this of myself. What happens is this. I am driving down the road, listening to talk radio. The Renewing Your Mind broadcast ends, and is replaced by an hour of Christian music. I immediately change the station. I look for other music. Maybe something in the 90’s. The 90’s was a great decade for music. Here is my order of preference:
1. U2
2. Lifehouse
3. Creed
4. Cranberries
5. Alanis Morresette
6. Smashing Pumkins
7. Matchbox 20
8. Nickleback
9. REM
10. Pearl Jam
That is my list. In fact, you can check my Mp3 player and see the same list. I know what you are thinking. None of these are Christian groups. In fact, some have been thought of as anti-Christian. Even U2, Lifehouse, and Creed, although they have Christian members, are not Christian bands. I like that. In fact, if they were to change and exist under the title of “Christian rock” I would probably bow my head in sadness and cease to listen to them. I would think to myself “They have caved to the pressure of the Christian sub-culture network.
It would take much more than one blog to explain my reasonings for this (especially since I do not completely understand them myself), but let give you some thoughts.
Broadly speaking, I don’t like the Christian mentality that Christians must create Christian sub-cultures in order to be truly Christian. We have a sub-culture for everything. When people come into Church they have to learn a different language, change the way they dress, only read Christian books, start liking the organ (God help me), and limit their cinematic entertainment to The Passion of the Christ and Left Behind. Why? Because we must conform to the sub-culture that says everything outside the Christian sub-culture is evil at worst and dangerous at best.
I especially don’t like a sub-culture in a genera that is a human genera - music. What does this mean? I believe that the Church is to exist as the Church, representing Christ in culture. This does not simply mean that we are out giving the Gospel to every person we see (as important as evangelism is), but representing Christ by being human. We are part of the culture, we are not a sub-culture. If a person feels musically inclined, he or she can honor God with their music, but this does not necessarily mean that every song they sing contains the words ”Jesus, “God,” or “saved.” Why is it that when people become Christian in the music business they feel pressured to only sing songs about Christ?
Let me just say it. I think that most Christian music is fake. I would much rather hear about people’s real lives, real struggles, and real passions than the shallow stuff that I hear coming out of the Christian music industry. Transparency is the key. I would rather hear someone honestly wrestling with the difficulties of life than listen to those who act like they have all the answers when I know this is not really the case. I would rather hear someone honestly cursing God than hypocritically praising His name. Music is about touching the deepest part of the human soul, grabbing a hold of the passions in a way that no other form of communication can. One Greek philosopher once said, “You can have the government and education, but give me the music and I control the people.” Music is about meeting people where they are. For example, Disarm by Smashing Pumpkins asks more questions than it answers. Cumbersome by Seven Mary Three, while depressing, speaks to real situations where life is overwhelming and sad. This is an essential component in music. It enters you struggles, joys, angers, frustrations and says ”This is life.” It should never put on a veneer of a sub-culture, but speak to people where they are. Didn’t David do this in the Psalms? Aren’t the Psalms music? Yet the Psalms are real. Some cry out to God in real anger, some praise his creation. Even the Song of Songs is about real life. It is about sex and it does not need to mention God once to honor him.
I am not saying that music should seek to normalize or glorify sin, but neither should it seek to avoid the problems of sin. Neither am I saying that the music that I have listed above necessarily honors God, but at least it is real. U2 sings real songs. Bono, the Edge, Larry Mullin, and Adam Clayton are all Christians, but they are not a Christian band. Why? Because they want to make an impact in the real world, speaking about real issues with honesty, openness, and transparency. If they were to enter into the “Christian music” genera, they would have to wear the same mask as all the others. They know this and they wisely stay out of the Christian music sub-culture.
There is no reason for Christians to create sub-cultures. In fact, this is a concession. God created music. He does not require you to mention His name in every song any more than He requires it in every email or conversation that you have. Real life can honor God without mentioning His name. I am not against mentioning Him, but let your music reflect the real world.  He should be honored in all things. The same thing can be said about all entertainment. I don’t like the Christian movie industry for the same reasons, but that is another blog.Â
Okay, let the roasting begin.
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- None Found
JoanieD on 25 May 2007 at 3:47 am #
You won’t get any roasting from me, Michael! I agree with you wholeheartedly. My list of favorite musicians would be different though. I like:
Bob Dylan
Bruce Cockburn
Bruce Springsteen
Mark Knopfler
Eva Cassidy - she died
Taj Mahal
Santana
Jimmy Buffet
John Prine
Townes Van Zandt
Van Morrison
and lots more. The above list may reveal my age to an extent. I am 53. I also listened to a lot of Moody Blues growing up and Cat Stevens and Carol King. Oh and Rod Stewart. And The Band.
Have a good weekend!
Joanie
richards on 25 May 2007 at 7:37 am #
I don’t believe this. You don’t have Michael W. Smith on your iPod. He’s Reformed, you know. When he sings “Friends are friends forever,” he’s talking about perseverance of the saints.
Sheesh, Michael. I thought you were saved.
Ed Kratz on 25 May 2007 at 9:17 am #
Michael, it seems to me that you are holding back on some very inside information here, perhaps some ‘secret knowledge’ that you aren’t sharing with the rest of the world. I think other did that in the past, can you say Gnostics???
How is it that you have such keen insight into the hearts and minds of Christian musicians that you know their motivation? And the same should be asked for secular musicians whether they are Christian or not, what makes them writing about their own struggles or lusts, or greed better than a Christian worship band? Do the secular artists have a purer heart, or are they better in touch with reality?
Why is it that if you use your gift of teaching to make a living teaching theology that it is so difficult for you to see that those with a musical gift who wish to glorify God through their music should be able to without their integrity being questioned?
Maybe what you are calling fake is really just them writing about certain things they have gone through, are going through, or are feeling at the time they wrote it? Just because a song may seem too happy or too holy doesn’t mean the artist feels that way all the time, it’s a permanent record of a temporary event, I don’t think anyone really thinks the artists just walk around all day singing ‘How great is our God’ and smiling all the time.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t love all Christian music and I don’t hate all secular music, Jimmy Buffett was probably my favorite artist for years because of the stories he tells through his music, and the apparent 24/7 vacation style life he leads. However, Buffett’s lyrics and topics of many songs are contrary to what we should do and think, and certainly not in line with what we should glorify. Being in the world doesn’t mean we have to bow to culture just to be relevant, let’s face it, you don’t go to a Buffett concert to drink margaritas, smoke pot, and witness.
I just think it’s easier to ‘pray continuously’ listening to Christian music than to secular music, there are exceptions from both camps, but as a general rule I believe it’s true. Plus there are lots of great Christian groups now, not like in the 70’s when there were only a few.
Michael, your disdain for Christian music is unreasonable, and with all the fence sitting you do on other much more important issues I can’t believe you can be so one sided on something like this. Irenic on Soteriology, Polemic on music hmmmm….
stpattykid on 25 May 2007 at 11:30 am #
Michael-
I predict that this post will receive more heated responses than just about anything else you’ve put on the blog. I think that’s awfully sad. And I think that’s the underlying point you are trying to make (Forgive me if I seem to be putting words in your mouth). Let me just say for the record that I too don’t care for Christian Rock. I don’t like praise songs. I love sacred choral music. And I will take a kicking pipe organ to a jam band any day of the week. My musical taste ranges from Radiohead and Queens of the Stone Age to Hank Williams Sr. and Joe Ely.
When my Dad became a Christian the FIRST thing he did was throw out all of his old records. And he had some great stuff. The SECOND thing he did was restrict what I could listen to. That was fine until I hit my teen years and all I wanted to do was listen to that filthy rock and roll.
I think there are many in the institutional church that believe that once you become a Christian you must denounce secular music…or alcohol…or dancing, etc, etc. It becomes an essential component of faith. I say that based on my own experience of youth group where anybody who didn’t have every Amy Grant album was looked at sideways. So what happens to the person who throws out the old tunes, memorizes every praise song, sings with uplifted hands…what happens to that person when things don’t go right? What happens to that person who goes down the checklist of things they’ve changed in their lives and yet they are still struggling? Their experience is telling them something is wrong. That’s where the disaster happens. They have put their faith in externals and not the essential aspects of faith in Christ. So, in the final analysis, it is not about an artist choosing to use their gifts to glorify God through Christian music. It’s also not about praising God through music. That is a part of the experience of worshipping God. It’s about a culture that exerts a pressure on all believers that says, you MUST do this to be an authentic believer.
So the fact that you will receive a beating in this post saddens me. The church has so many disappointed people who either sit in their pew silently dying and hoping it gets better or who just chuck the whole thing all together (see any Leavers post to date). I believe that that’s the crucial issue facing the church. What are we doing to reach those people?
That’s all I’ve got. All the best.
B.A. Hill
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 12:37 pm #
Ed, thanks for the comments. I think you are misunderstanding two things. 1) the tongue-in-check tone of this some of this post and 2) the real subject of the post.
The subject is not simply whether or not every individual song is sincere, but the sub-culture that necessitate insincerity. The best illustration is this. In our culture, we expect people to treat us with respect and dignity. If we are walking down the street and you make eye contact with a stranger, you are expected to say “How are you doing.” The person is expected to say “fine” or “good” whether that is the case or not. It is a insincere question and everyone should know that. Small talk is not supposed to be transparent and open.
Well, this is the same that I have seen in the Christian music sub-culture. And my main point is that there should not be any Christian sub-cultures. The Church is not a sub-culture. Yet the Christian music industry has created one and in order to go under their labels you have to speak a certain language and say “I am doing good” when someone passes you on the street.
I am not saying that all of them are not being sincere any more than I am saying that the person who passes you on the road is not being sincere. But let’s just allow them to speak to all humanity and speak as the Psalmist did.
Christian’s can just do music and do it better than anyone else. They don’t have to become “Christian musicians any more that someone has to become a Christian plumber, landscape engineer, lawyer, or doctor. There is nothing wrong with having certain people who just sing or perform in Christian venues with songs that are praise songs, but there is something wrong with feeling the pressure that this is your only avenue once you become a Christian.
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 12:40 pm #
Joanne, great list (I think) :). Thanks for the post.
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 12:46 pm #
Brain, you understood my post well (as usual). I think we were separated at birth. . Often, once you become a Christian, everything that goes on outside the Christian sub-culture is denounced. And that is my point. Not only is the Church not a sub-culture, but everything in the culture and everything that those outside the church do is not evil.
In answer to your question: “So what happens to the person who throws out the old tunes, memorizes every praise song, sings with uplifted hands…what happens to that person when things don’t go right? What happens to that person who goes down the checklist of things they’ve changed in their lives and yet they are still struggling? Their experience is telling them something is wrong.”
They get a U2 album! Preferably Pop. That was a particularly Ecclesiastical year for Bono and the body.
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 12:54 pm #
Richard, lol. I actually like that sound.
Ed Kratz on 25 May 2007 at 2:02 pm #
Michael, I didn’t misunderstand either point. Tongue in cheek is a disguise for your real feelings, and the music industry whether secular or Christian is a sub-culture. But guess what? so is the scholarly realm that you run in, and that is my point in the irenic/polemic point, you will easily show grace and make attempts to justify something like Francis Beckwith’s move to Roman Catholicism but bash Christian artists as fake or insincere.
I know you well enough that it would take a real curve ball for me to misunderstand your intent, I just totally disagree with you. I also think the picture you included is offensive in light of what you wrote and what others commented; the only difference between that person and someone at a U2 concert is she is not holding a beer and a joint.
tnahas on 25 May 2007 at 2:16 pm #
Ed, amen bro!!
I have been biting my tongue all day. Its about time we call a spade a spade.
Michael, I got rid of all my CDs and booze when I got saved and thank the Lord for that
You can dive into whatever culture you want Michael. Scripture is clear. The Christian is to be separate of the world but we are in the world till glory. Until then for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Ed, I totally agree with you. We have to draw the lines and make a stand.
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 2:17 pm #
Come on Ed. You just said the same thing you said before without dealing with my comments.
My profession is the same. If to speak as a theologian you have to say things a certain way and agree with the status quo, then I am against it. There is a Christian theological sub-culture that says you must believe in an insincere way, accepting things simply because they are part of the norm for Christian belief. But as you know, that is what RMM is about, overcoming this sub-culture of folk-lore in theology, dealing with issue honestly and with integrity.
Christian musicians can do the same, but the way the Christian music industry is run, they cannot do it within the established Christian music industry sub-culture.
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 2:23 pm #
Taffy, do you believe that when a Christian artist becomes a Christian they must leave the industry or become a part of the Christian sub-set of that industry? Why not just stay in the industry and represent Christ. My point is that this does NOT amount to compromise. Christ did not call us out of the world and God is in the process of redeeming the world. We are to be separate in the sense that we deal with issues with honesty and integrity. But these issues are the same issues as they were before.
Take for instance the difference between Vince Gill and Randy Travis. Both were very successful country singers. Vince Gill begins to to follow the Lord and he stays in the main stream Country music industry and remains successful. His songs are real and have integrity. But at the same time, he still sings about divorce, hurt, pain, and Christ (Christian’s still deal with these issues-we are just not supposed to speak about them). He does not have to mention Christ in every song. Randy Travis, on the other hand, becomes a Christian and leaves the main stream Country music industry and only sings Gospel songs. He is no longer popular being associated only with the Christian music sub-culture. Why did he have to do that? He could have continued to spread him message in the main stream which is neither Christian or non-Christian, but speaks to both.
I don’t know why Randy Travis did it, and I am not necessarily saying it was wrong in and of itself to make the change. But if he made the change because of the pressures to speak a new language determined by the Christian music sub-culture, than I believe this is wrong. There does not need to be this type of pressure. We greatly limit our outreach as we leave the culture and go sit on a mountain singing kum by ya. I never saw Christ creating any Christian sub-cultures in such a way.
Ed Kratz on 25 May 2007 at 2:43 pm #
Thanks Mr. Green!! Michael, you took an entire industry and grouped them all together, and what you seem to not be realizing that is that you are in your own theological/philosophical sub-culture that sits in judgment of those who follow what leads them to worship the Lord in their own way.
You will defend Francis Beckwith and try to build a scenario for his benefit where his ‘conversion’ to Roman Catholicism is a good thing because it may bring about more dialog, but you take a whole group of individuals and say that what they write is rubbish and they are insincere.
Sorry, if you would like to believe that the post was so profound or I am so ignorant that I missed the deeper meaning of it, that’s fine, incorrect, but fine.
I’m also sorry you or anyone else feels ‘pressured’ to listen to Christian music, but I’ve never felt pressured to do so. I enjoy much of the music, I like the fact that I don’t have to worry about the lyrics when my young children are listening, and I like the messages a lot of the songs are giving.
Do you actually have personal data to back what you’re purporting? Do the artists actually feel pressured to write Christian songs? I thought not, maybe, just maybe they feel led to write and perform these songs, maybe they actually enjoy stopping in the middle of their concerts to give their testimony and lead people to the Lord, I am sure you think that is fake too, but my wife would disagree completely. She was saved at a ‘Christian’ concert about 11 years ago, and it was not staged, fake, or insincere. Our lives where changed by Christian artists who have a genuine love of the Lord, and are doing what they feel led to do. Glad they didn’t check with you first.
I’ll let you have the last word as I just flat out disagree with you, and don’t feel the need to go on, I mean, hey, this isn’t the forum ïŠ
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 3:00 pm #
Ed, read my responses above. They deal with what you are saying.
Listen folks, this is a blog and a dialogue. This is NOT the biggest issue in Christianity. But it is something to think about. Let’s see if we can discuss, understand, and learn.
I certainly don’t mind if you disagree with me. But I would say for you to first listen to what is being said and not have a knee jerk reaction to what I am saying.
tnahas on 25 May 2007 at 3:56 pm #
Michael, when the world is overhearing us singing “kum ba ya”, let’s hope they get the message of Christ and Christ only. The point is Michael, God did create music and everything else for that matter but how as Christians are we to represent Christ with it. As for the Travis and Gill example, I don’t where they stand. But when the world is coming in to buy music by “Christians”, as they did for the Jabez and Purpose Life books then we know there is a problem.
Again Mr. Black, I agree with you. I have the Christian CDs in the car so I don’t have to have my kids humming f this, son of b that, that b***tard, etc etc etc.
Michael turn to the Book of Revelation and see what saints sing when we all get to heaven.
Where is the witness of the Christian when the Christian is in the world. He is no longer a witness to the lost but has blended into the world and lost his ability to be a witness.
Ed, when are we going to start roasting Michael?
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 4:06 pm #
Taffy, I don’t think that people should listen to the music with all the profanity either. I f that is the impression that I have given, I am sorry. Most of that type of Rap does not represent the real world but is a sub-culture in its self.
Also, I am not saying that people should not sing songs with a Christian message. Once again, this blog has to do with the Christian sub-culture.
Another example you can study is the break up of Creed. You will see the pressure of the Christian music sub-culture cause the lead singer to make a decision that he did not have to.
BTW: The happenings in the book of Revelation are not indicative of the actions that we should be taking every moment of our lives (otherwise you would not be a work, but simply on your face before God 24/7). They are however prescriptive of our attitudes that we should have in all things. You can have the attitude of praise and worship at your job, in emails, watching the news, or singing songs that don’t mention Christ.
I am starting to believe that I would not have written this blog
Ed Komo warned me.
Let the roasting continue.
stevemoore on 25 May 2007 at 4:22 pm #
And me without my marshmallow’s and graham crackers… ;^)
Irrespective of the subject of music or not, there is a sub-culture found (and I’d argue more than one) within modern Christianity. There are probably some positive aspects that come from it, but I think the points you bring forth are relevant and we ought be on the lookout. Why? What’s the danger?
I think part of the attractiveness of the sub-culture is that people do wish to associate themselves with something and “belong.” A sub-culture provides more than ample boundaries detailing how to “belong” for those interested and satisfies that desire. However, as believer’s we’re to associate ourselves with Christ and find our “belonging” in Him, not in a set of rules or boundaries, whether they be good or bad. If people gain (or seek to gain) a sense of righteousness before God by participating in a sub-culture, rather than from their unity with Christ by His grace, that’s where I start to worry.
I’d argue that today’s sub-culture is tomorrow’s folk theology.
-steve (smoore get it? marshmallow, graham… Michael’s roast? ok, not funny… but I tried to add some levity)
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 4:27 pm #
Great comments Steve. This statement is really good:
“I’d argue that today’s sub-culture is tomorrow’s folk theology.”
You nailed it there.
tnahas on 25 May 2007 at 4:56 pm #
Oh yeah, you nailed it alright. If the Church continues at this pace then it will itself be folk theology.
The Church has been a sub-culture since its inception. Take a look at Acts and Church history, I mean the true Church history. It has always kept a safe distance from the world. Sadly those lines are becoming too blurred to keep that distinction. A cry that has bemoaned each passing generation.
Jill on 25 May 2007 at 5:05 pm #
Michael, my husband came to Christ at the age of 40. He has been a musician all his life and when he did come to Christ the “Christian” music flowed out of him. He had had 40 years of what the culture offered but it didn’t offer the answer. After 40 years of pain and darkness, he wants and needs to write and sing about the light and hope. He still writes about the pain but now he can write about so much more. The impact it has had on others, especially those who have come to Christ later in life, has been humbling to him as a man and a musician. I just ask that you give grace to those who choose to go “Christian”.
Jill
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 5:08 pm #
Thanks Jill. Great testimony. I am sorry if what I have said is offensive to you. I really don’t mean for it to be.
Again, the issues is not Christian music, but the legitimacy of a sub-culture music industry that goes by the name “Christian.” Especially when the genres cross already established genres. As well, it is about the pressure that people feel that they must leave the main stream in order to honor Christ. I don’t doubt that your husband made the right decision so long as it is not based upon the belief that it was necessary for him to do so in order to honor Christ.
stevemoore on 25 May 2007 at 5:10 pm #
Interesting view Taffy, though I’m not sure how to read some of your comments. Some of them seem to agree, others not.
Questions:
What distance would you define as “safe”?
You say the Church has always kept a safe distance - how did it arrive at the conclusion of what “safe” was? Is there a passage that helps us understand “safe distance”?
And, whatever distance is a good distance, why not double it? Wouldn’t that be better?
thanks,
-steve
Jill on 25 May 2007 at 5:31 pm #
Michael, what you are saying is not offensive to me. I just wanted you to understand the other side. If they are being led by the Lord, then neither Vince Gill nor Randy Travis is wrong in the way they are using their music.
sellison on 25 May 2007 at 5:33 pm #
“I am starting to believe that I would not have written this blog”
Thank you for writing this blog - somebody had to.
So I’ll add fuel to the fire with this one, but it’s sincere:
I was working on a picture slideshow/DVD for our (church) Upward Soccer league the other day - one to show at the end of the year awards show, with pictures of the kids playing soccer. I had all the pictures in so I started to look for some songs to put them to. Now, this is going to sound horrible, but please try and see my point: Almost every song was about Jesus. (roast away). What I wanted was some songs about running around in the springtime, seeing the joy on children’s faces, the smell of the freshly cut grass, etc… , but it was very difficult to find anything like this in the ‘Christian’ genre. Unfortunately I didn’t have the guts to reach over to the secular side to grab any one of the plethora of songs with these themes - so I settled on a few that really didn’t work for the slideshow, but at least were upbeat and good songs.
To me, this simply opened my eyes even more to something I’ve ‘felt’ but never conciously realized - It’s Michael’s point of Christian music ‘not asking the hard questions’ (if that’s a fair viewpoint of your post)
I have, however, enjoyed listening to Casting Crowns. They have a number of songs that I can really relate to.
tnahas on 25 May 2007 at 6:09 pm #
Well Steve,
I like what you said: “However, as believer’s we’re to associate ourselves with Christ and find our “belonging†in Him, not in a set of rules or boundaries, whether they be good or bad.”
That is what I mean by safe distance. Paul gives us many exhortations as a guide book for the Christian especially in the letters to the Corinthians.
Could we double it? Amen let’s do that. But sadly most of the responses here
are we are to embrace the ways, style of the world and whatever sells. We measure by popularity not by how many came to the Lord like Jill’s wonderful testimony.
Its not about right and wrong but honoring the Lord. The bands listed above just doesn’t do it for me especially the “Christian” ones.
Hope that helps Steve.
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 7:57 pm #
Here is a list of some other people who are saying the same thing in different ways.
Matt Farina: Death to the Christian Sub-Culture
Ben Rushlo: Separate: A critique of Christian subculture
John Ed Robertson review of Fearless Faith
They are worth the read.
kolabok21 on 25 May 2007 at 8:24 pm #
Michael,
Where to think this stuff up! I can agree with you mostly on everything you have said. I still find myself listening to stuff once in a while, while flipping the channel or my kid digs up some cassette out of the glove compartment. I’m afraid to mention what I listen to, you named a few I like which was about the time I got away from that music and embraced Christianity.
I really think you solved a dilemma for me, I have noticed how the record industry really has pushed the envelope on this one.
I’ll stick with my blue grass gospel, ain’t notin like a fiddle and banjo to praise the Lord with, try some you might just like it, it’s real stuff, try Reno & Smiley !!!
Bryant
stpattykid on 25 May 2007 at 11:04 pm #
Michael-
Here’s some numbers to back up my earlier prediction regarding the beating you are enduring…
This post on Christian Music…28 responses(including this one)
The next highest? What is the best bible software at 11. Kirk Cameron battling atheists came in at a respectable 8 responses.
However, An Evangelical’s Lament brought in 5, and The Book of Job & the problem of pain has zero. (Pause) Now I’m not suggesting that some valid points haven’t been brought up (there have been) but what does this say about what we claim as important? An observation. All the best.
B.A. Hill
C Michael Patton on 25 May 2007 at 11:10 pm #
Is it just me or do I hear the Rocky theme playing in the background?
stevemoore on 26 May 2007 at 6:18 am #
Taffy,
Thanks for your thoughts, that does help me understand where you’re coming from I think.
I’m glad that my comments struck a chord with you. And, I would affirm that there is a lot of excellent moral instruction within the New Testament. Like a seed, in the context of God’s grace and His sanctifying us through faith, the moral instruction can take root and grow - He’s writing it on our hearts.
On the other hand, I don’t see quite as much instruction on the gray areas, a lot of which fall into the cultural realm and would deal directly with where the lines ought to be drawn, such as movies, music, even alcohol, meat sacrificed to idols. I have heard someone often say, and I agree, that “It’s a lot easier to not ____ (fill in the blank) than it is for you to love your wife.” Meaning, we often times give something up that we’re not required to, Biblical speaking, and it gives us a warm righteous feeling. We keep going, and start to feel that this is sanctifying us, and that we’re improving our standing before God by _not_ doing this thing. Meanwhile, we ignore the fact that we are called to do things like love our wives that are nowhere near as glamorous nor sacrificial sounding. It doesnt give us that “feeling” of righteousness Our standing and righteousness before God comes from our association with Christ, not ourselves.
If moving ourselves away from the culture is good, and doubling it is better, where do we stop? Do we go as far as the monks? I don’t want to put any words in your mouth, but for me I personally feel the monks have gone too far. They have removed themselves entirely and I think this is passive and escapist, ultimately. Though wrapped up in noble sounding motives, they have relegated their participation in the world by being neither in in it nor of it.
Perhaps you think the monks haven’t gone too far, or far enough. But again, for me, they have. So where then is the line? Is it different for different people? Is this an area where we must exercise Biblical wisdom and extend grace to others who are employing the liberty that Christ has purchased for them?
thanks again,
-steve
tnahas on 26 May 2007 at 8:11 am #
Brian,
I have chose not to respond to some of the other posts even though there was lots of material to bash there to. But as you can see this is more than just about music.
Besides I like jumping in when Ed does.
BTW, we haven’t even started beating Michael up and he knows it. Just look at his last response, the Rocky theme, more non-Christian music he is promoting.
Also I believe that the sub-culture issue is what is wrong with evangelicalism. We don’t know who we are because we have lost our commitment to doctrine and have blended with the world.
Steve,
I agree with you that we must continue to have a relationship in the world and yes the monks went too far but they did have some good ideas just misapplied them.
But Steve, really it comes down to this: What makes Christians different than the world? When I got saved my whole world was turned upside down literally. Besides getting rid of old habits my whole outlook on life changed dramatically. But I look at the Christian world and the dying world and see no difference externally.
But see, as Michael spoke of the troubles that musicians write about of everyday life, while commendable, it should not apply to the Christian on the macro level since we have won. We have the victory in Jesus. This life is just passing by and our focus should be on eternal things. Let go of our old man and put on the new man.
My passion is evangelism and when I witness to the lost, what is going to show to the lost than there is something different about me? The Holy Spirirt witness? My own testimony? Or maybe what they see in my life (as pathetic as it is, although I do try)?
If I am just doing what everyone in the world is doing what’s the difference?
Steve, I agree with you again when you said: “Is this an area where we must exercise Biblical wisdom and extend grace to others who are employing the liberty that Christ has purchased for them?”
I do believe that we have to within the Church show love and grace but just
not to Michael.
stevemoore on 26 May 2007 at 5:56 pm #
Taffy,
You make some good points. Allow me to address your questions, though not in the order you asked.
1) We agree the Monks went too far. Ok, common ground. ;^)
2) I think that’s great you have such a passion for evangelism and a burden for the lost. Let me ask this - how many folks do you think you could share with at the South Pole? Would it be better for you to live there (far fewer temptations and sin and being clearly set apart from society) or in the city where you currently reside? Could you reach more people there? (Maybe you do live at the South Pole, I dont know. ;^). I think the answer is self-evident. Removing oneself from society to the point where there is no witness, there is no common ground with real people, is not what Christ did nor instructed us to do.
I could be wrong, but I believe the point Michael was making was more about our exiting the culture around us and handing over neutral things to the lost. If we do that, we are irrelevant, like the Monks, and we lose that opportunity to witness that you love so dearly. [Michael, correct me if I've mis-stated your position here.] Creating a virtual world (sub cultures) that co-exists but does not intersect the rest of the world, is just as bad as completely checking out and heading to the South Pole. It accomplishes the same thing - we create our clubs and cliques and we create the “fences” so that we’re sure to be distinct, and then we tell a believer that if they do not build the same “fences” then they cannot play in the club. Even when these fences are not Biblical requirements in any way. (Gotta dress a certain way, gotta listen to certain music, gotta use a certain translation… the list goes on and on.) When we do this, we call into question their standing before God, and when we do so, we call into question the grace of God and work of Christ.
I’ve not seen Michael suggest to anyone that we sin, or participate in the vices that are noted in the New Testament (or Old for that matter). Would you agree or disagree on that he has not done this? Then the question moves to, why do you feel that living in the world, but not of the world, is not what he’s suggesting? Why do you feel he’s suggesting something sinful? Perhaps you’ve drawn a different line as to what “being in but not of” is? I dont know that’s what I’m hoping to understand from you.
3) As for what’s different between us and the world: Christ. That’s what we should point to as He is the one worthy of the honor and glory. Since you and I, (ok, maybe just me), still sin apparently that isnt different between us and the world. I know, that is a scandalous statement, though it is true. Although, in contrast, I do have a progressive desire for holiness and the world is in rebellion against it.
And as for how they will know there is something different - well, what does the Bible say? It does not say that they will know us by our music, or the list of things we don’t do. It doesn’t even say that they will know us by our complete lack of sin. It does not say that they will know us by our sub-culture that we humans have created as a means to feel good about our standing before God and our efforts to sanctify ourselves. It says they will know us by our love.
4) If you’re doing what everyone in the world is doing, what’s the difference? Well, for one, you’re a new creation in Christ. I’d say that’s the biggest difference and should be the focus. Let me turn the question around? If the emphasis should be on being different, do you say that you do NOTHING at all that the world does? You dont grocery shop, or go to the bank, or work, or have a certain haircut? I think you see my point. We are going to do things that the world does. We’re not to waste our time with sin, as it will never satisfy and is destruction. It is not profitable, as Paul reminds us. But, for those things that are not clearly noted as sin - why must those be different from everyone else? What purpose and merit before God does that have?
I still don’t know when you’re joking or being serious - it’s hard for me to tell. (referring to your comment about grace and Michael). I don’t know either of you so maybe y’all are best buds and I’m looking in from the outside. ;^)
thanks,
-steve
tnahas on 26 May 2007 at 8:18 pm #
Steve,
Thanks for the comments and yeah I was joking about Michael (he’s an easy target).
I agree with you too Steve. When fishing you have to go where the fish are. But as a fisherman I don’t want to be seen as a fish so that other fishermen believe I need to be saved.
We do a lot of things the world does, like blogging and typing for that matter. But Scripture has a number of examples where it is not a sin to do something but it would not be honoring to the Lord. Given the choices then (not freely of course) I would rather choose to do things that focus on the Lord and not on self or other things. And yes I do fail miserably in trying to make the right choices not in a legalistic way like a Pharisee but just doing things that seem right.
Here is the standard I try to hold to. What if you invited the Lord Jesus to your activity? Would He smile, frown or throw lightning bolts at you? What you want to be doing when the rapture comes? The choices, not free of course, are endless. Scripture talks clearly of separation and we as Christians must make a stand that we are not to conform to the world.
I know we have gotten way off topic but I believe again that we must draw lines in the sand and say I’m going to try and cross it. Nations, cultures, races all have borders and limits. What is the Christian border? We are a remnant, have been and always will be. We don’t war against the flesh or satisfy it for that matter. Our war is on a spiritual level and in the heavenly realms. Satan is the prince of the power of this world. Let’s take as many with us as we can.
JoanieD on 26 May 2007 at 8:27 pm #
Michael, thanks for those URLs for the additional reading about this matter. They were good reading.
From http://www.next-wave.org/mar01/highway2.htm I liked:
“All this congregating in the subculture alone puts our eyes on one another, rather than the world that so desperately needs to be reached.” and
“Jesus had no illusion of a sacred and secular world. He lived in the “world” without conforming to it.”
From
http://www.navigators.org/us/ministries/metro/Metro_Tools/items/Book%20Reviews/items/Fearless%20Faith
the writer is talking about John Fischer’s book, Fearless Faith,
and writes, “The author bases much of his argument on Jesus’ high priestly prayer in John 17 in which He prayed not that God would take us out of the world, but that He would protect us from evil. He believes that the “separation verses,” such as 2 Corinthians 6:17, 18, have been taken out of context to justify abandoning the “high road of involvement, interaction, and mutual respect in favor of the low road of disengagement, isolation, and scorn.” ”
I particularly like that phrase “…the high road of involvement, interaction and mutual respect…”
In Jesus’ time, many Pharisees saw themselves as more “holy” than people around them because they kept the law so well. But Jesus complained that it was the religious leaders who were preventing people from entering the Kingdom of God and that the Pharisees themselves were not entering the kingdom. I did like seeing in the Bible, though, that some Pharisees supported Jesus. Some warned him that his life was in danger and I think it says Joseph of Arametha (I can’t remember the spelling) was a Pharisee, doesn’t it? I may remember that wrong. I read Jesus as telling us that God FREES us to love and to be happy. God doesn’t put such burdens on us that we are afraid to be near people who are not “Godly.” Our God is not a God of fear. It’s our “duty” as Christians to tell people that God does not want people to fear. Fear is the exact opposite of of God. Fear is opposed to Faith. The Holy Spirit cannot work through us when we are filled with fear, whether it is fear or the world, fear of death, fear of isolation or whatever. I catch myself over and over again stuck in fear. I need to let go of that and trust God that all is well and all will be well. That doesn’t mean there won’t be difficult times though. It just means that there is a Person and a place beyond though difficult times.
stevemoore on 27 May 2007 at 7:33 am #
Taffy,
Thanks for your thoughts, I’ve enjoyed the discussion.
I think we’re agreeing/disagreeing on a constant struggle of the Church - even from the inception of the early Church:
“What does it really look like to be in the world but not of the world?”
They struggled with finding the balance, and there were disagreements about it even back then. Even before the Church began, Jesus himself was accused of being worldly and not set far enough apart.
In conclusion, I can completely affirm your point that we got way off topic. ;^) But hey, it was good to chew on this nonetheless.
-steve
Chad Winters on 27 May 2007 at 11:15 am #
I think Michael has a valid point about the danger of anything becoming an “industry” and the danger of corruption and insincerity. But this goes too far. The same attack can be labeled against the Christian book industry. How many published academic books actually needed to be published? Were they sincerely thinking they were edifying the body or trying to sell books?
I like contemporary Christian music at times. I have some on my iPod as well as some U2 and Lifehouse. But still CMP tends to give Bono a pass and attack someone like Mark Schultz or Derek Webb who I have much more respect for, simply because they focus on writing Christian lyrics? It’s not right and I disagree
“tongue in cheek” as CMP was for something that is not that vital.
Truth is if I go to a contemporary service and sing “God of Wonders”, I worship God more than in a traditional service where I fight to stay awake until the sermon (the real meat of the service for me anyway).
In the end to paraphrase Koukl you are arguing over flavors of ice cream. Just because you like chocolate, doesn’t mean you should attack someone for liking strawberry. It is not theologically vital.
And I would challenge you to listen to Derek Webb’s She Must and Shall Go Free CD. His lyrics are not light and fluffy. Although possibly because he bucks the industry more than follows it
from Wikipedia:
She Must and Shall Go Free is the first solo studio album from Derek Webb following his 2003 departure from Caedmon’s Call. It is notable for causing controversy in Contemporary Christian Music circles; some Christian retailers refused to stock the album for its use of “strong” language.
One of the songs that was the basis for controversy was Wedding Dress where Webb compares Christians who seek fulfillment in things outside of Christ to a person committing adultery. An introspective tune, Webb writes that “I am a whore I do confess / I put you on just like a wedding dress”.
Another song that generated controversy was Saint and Sinner where Webb wrote” “I used to be a damned mess but now I look just fine, ‘Cause you dressed me up and we drank the finest wine”. The word ‘damned’ was removed from the final version of the album, at the request of two major Christian retailers[1].
–in fact this post may fit under the Cussing Pastor post too!!
tnahas on 27 May 2007 at 12:31 pm #
Steve,
I agree with you however one comment about when our Lord was here on
earth. He came to turn the world upside down and He did so with His ministry and His life and in so doing turned over every conventional Jewish thought, far from being a conformist.
He has handed the torch to us to bring the same message to the culture
we live in, so let’s take it to them at whatever cost.
As we all struggle together let’s keep our dialogue open to share our thoughts.
Thanks Steve.
Carrie Hunter on 28 May 2007 at 11:36 am #
Just back spaced a reply. So nevermind.
mjfreshoil on 29 May 2007 at 12:35 pm #
Wow!!
Again, you have done a terrible thing. You have challenged the minds of traditionalists. I couldnt agree with you more. I think the best way for Christians to to engage culture, is to be a part of it. As evangelical protestants, we have isolated ourselves from the world in much the same way monks of old have by living in monastaries. It is sad that we have become isolationists in virtually every relevant area of culture except on such pressing social issues ( I hope my sarcasm is showing) as abortion and homosexuality. Music of all genres hisorically has expressed the human condition. It is the way we communicate our frustrations and can to some degree feel a little better about it. In worship it is the way we can communicate our hearts to God. The problem is, most Christian music is idealistic, and really has no culture relevence even in our “evangelical sub-culture”. Most christian music is sort of Mr Rogers-esque, and fails to truely minister to us.
Lets face it, Christian music is played mostly on christian stations, which unless you are already a christian is probably not going to be listened to. It is the same problem christian ministries have. The message of the gospel is reaching us… not the person who needs to be touched by God’s Amazing Grace. Maybe if many radio and televangelists would pay to broadcast on “secular” stations instead of paying to drive a Bentley, the gospel would reach a greater audience.
If I felt that the power of the gospel message was demonstrated by the music that we call Christian, I might be forced to disagree with you, but it seems to more for entertainment of people who are weak, and on milk, rather than having any real impact on a society that is in desparate need for answers in a world that is out of balance.
With all that said, I believe that most artist who call themselves Christian, and most radio and TV ministers are sincere about what they are trying to do; I do think like the saying goes ” the devil is in the details”. Thank you for letting me rant.
Miles
C Michael Patton on 29 May 2007 at 2:49 pm #
Great comments Miles. I agree.
Here is a list of things we have in the Christian subculture:
1. Christian Music
2. Christian radio stations
3. Christian newspapers
4. Christian Universities
5. Christian book stores
6. Christian language
7. Christian YouTube (godtube.com)
8. Christian movies
9. Christian TV stations
10. Christian candy (Yes, look at Mardel)
I am sure there is more. The point is that each one of these isolates us and the Gospel from those people who engage in culture who’s elements are part of the common human experience. It is no wonder we don’t know how to communicate to those outside the faith. It is no wonder the average Christian loses all unbelieving friends after three years. (and that is not because they become believers.)
Thanks for the post. Gives me more fodder for another blog on this.
Parchment and Pen » The Rise of the Christian Sub-culture on 29 May 2007 at 4:25 pm #
[...] my post on Christian music got me in such hot water, I thought I would clarify some of the issues that need to be thought [...]
Well, there you have it... « Changing Direction, Moving Forward on 30 May 2007 at 11:04 am #
[...] Well, there you have it… I just had to share this post with you. Someone explaining why they don’t like Christian music. [...]
Vance on 01 Jun 2007 at 12:25 pm #
Michael, I agree with your original post 100%. I did not read all the dialogue since, but I have one thing to add (sorry if it has already been covered).
Why is it that if a movie or television star becomes a Christian, they are not expected to do only “Christian” movies or television from that time forward? Why are *they* allowed to be Christians doing “secular” entertainment, but musicians are not? For that matter, why am I allowed to be a Christian attorney, and still have clients that are not Christian? Should I not be limiting my profession to service of other Christians?
There is a crying need in our society for a moral and “clean”, if not overtly Christian, alternative to the negative side WITHIN mainstream media. By relegating all Christian artists to the “Christian” sub-culture, then we are REMOVING them from the mainstream media and effectively handing that mainstream media over to non-Christians by default. Much the way we did to academia.
Can U2 reach a wider audience with their positive message (as well as the KNOWLEDGE that they are Christian, which is a witness in itself) by being part of the mainstream media, or the Christian sub-culture.
As for my list, I am more a product of the 80’s, so I listen to:
U2
Police/Sting
Talking Heads
REM
Clapton
Beatles
Van Morrison
And proud of it!
What's this about Christian Music? « Changing Direction, Moving Forward on 01 Jun 2007 at 8:46 pm #
[...] the most interesting post the other day on the Parchment and Pen blog. C. Michael Patton explained why he doesn’t like Christian music. A few days later he elaborated in another entry. I had to laugh when I read these posts, and [...]
C Michael Patton on 01 Jun 2007 at 8:58 pm #
Thanks to you all. While this type of thinking is very difficult, it is necessary. If nothing else, it helps us to reevaluate the validity of our presuppositions.
Parchment and Pen » Now I am in trouble on 01 Jun 2007 at 9:08 pm #
[...] the controversy of the Christian Music and Christian Sub-culture posts, I thought that I would just let this issue go . . . Nah! You got [...]
jabbrim on 03 Jun 2007 at 8:58 pm #
Michael,
I’m getting into this late. I do think we have Christian ghettos, as I like to call them. But I do think that maybe (tongue in cheek or not) you perhaps overstated your point.
When I first became a believer I needed something different to listen to then the stuff I was listening to. In fact, in 1985 somebody gave me a Petra cassette (remember them?) and Degarmo and Key. I heard Petra sing, “God gave Rock and Roll…” and it was a blast. Suffice to say that I heard the gospel through these songs and in a way they were a good witnessing tool.
However, I don’t listen to a lot of Christian music today. I still like it and occasionally will listen, but lately I’ve been listening to U2, James Taylor, and lots of Jazz. But I think there is a need for people to express their thoughts to God.
As far as the industry side of it…I don’t know if its bad or not. There seems to be an industry side to lots of things. Even theology! I get a CBD Academic catalogue in the mail and love it! THere’s a thin line and sometimes it’s hard to see.
jabbrim
Andreadavisphd on 14 Jun 2007 at 4:03 pm #
I see the good in your critique but really disagree. The same problem with rejecting non-Christian music resides in rejecting Christian music because it creates a sub-culture of insincerity. What we need is Christian music which is authentic and sincere. Have you heard Brian Webb? Sara Groves? Chris Rice? Derek Webb? or others who try to be honest in their Christian music?
I think we need a subculture of Christian music because as a parent of young teens, I am concerned about the vulnerability of teens to the parenting-via-pop-culture phenomenon so prevalent. I am glad that I became a Christian at age 11 and could choose an inspiring/reorienting sub-culture to raise me spiritually in contrast to the in-my-face pop-culture inadequate values which also raised me…….
Alternatively, I just spent a bunch of time and money to take my teen to a Christian rock concert of 4 bands in Rock the Boat at Universal Studios amphitheatre and it was almost not worth it because we couldn’t hear any of the words at all, so while it was interesting, our faith was not strengthened by the message because we couldn’t hear it, and some of the bands were indistinguishable from other bands in their lyrics……
Would you please find some contemporary Christian music you think is really helpful/corrective/prophetic/inspiring and share it with us on your blog and have us discuss that stuff. So we know what we are critiquing. Saying we don’t like Christian music is almost as specific as saying we don’t like non-Christian music…….Your post on this issue got me fired up enough to register and respond, so……this is a hot topic.
C Michael Patton on 14 Jun 2007 at 4:25 pm #
Well, one thing you are right about is that this is obviously a hot topic. I certainly did not expect to receive this type of response.
My intention with this post was to say something that needed to be said and use overstatement to do so. I agree with you that not all Christian music is bad and, most certainly, not all secular music is bad. My main point in the end is that we need to be careful with the creation of any sub-culture that either keeps Christians from engaging in and enjoying the world or makes the world feel as if in order to be Christian you have to listen to this type of music.
As a parent, I applaud your desire to protect your children and encourage you to continue. At the same time, I hope that we don’t make our children buy into this sub-culture mentality that makes them unable to discern what is truly evil and keeps them from having a sincere and relevant witness.
Thanks for the post and the interest. Maybe we can do this again as I continue to ponder what you and others have said.
I hope you continue to post!
Todd on 06 Sep 2007 at 11:33 pm #
Hey Michael,
I just stumbled across this entry and thought you might enjoy this video: http://www.revveduptv.com/?p=8
A kindred brother who has very similar feelings toward Christian music.
Not to bring this back up, but . . . : The Submerging Influence on 15 Sep 2007 at 11:55 pm #
[...] would seem that someone agrees with me about the current state of contemporary Christian [...]
Eric Stephens on 18 Sep 2007 at 6:26 am #
The whole sub-culture thread in your post speaks volumes of truth. While our hearts must be separate/consecrated towards Christ, we as individuals have never been called to create a Christian ghetto. I imagine my life a few years ago when it was Christian everything. School, church, even the Boy Scout troop.
And what makes music Christian anyway???
rm on 10 Nov 2008 at 12:20 am #
I haven’t read the whole article and I haven’t read the comments, but you already contradicted yourself in the second paragraph. U2 and Lifehouse may not have a Christian Label however must not listen to their lyrics dude. Um…. both proclaim Christ. For a Christian to claim that they don’t listen to Christian music and worship our King, it’s people like you that give us a bad rap and call us hypocrites. you get no sympathy from me. what do you think Christ will say to you when you reach his throne? …. and all awhile all you can do is bow is in glory/
Jabes on 19 Nov 2008 at 4:18 pm #
“What happens to that person who goes down the checklist of things they’ve changed in their lives and yet they are still struggling? Their experience is telling them something is wrong. That’s where the disaster happens. They have put their faith in externals and not the essential aspects of faith in Christ. ”
This stood out to me while I was reading the comments.
All I can say is: AMEN! That’s my life right there. So many Christians have “checklists” for their Christian walk, but it just felt pointless. Like Paul said, “I was the Jewish of the Jews…but I count it all lost” compared to Christ. It’s not the externals but the internal and Eternal.
Truly, God bless you for this incredible blog. I have learned so much and God has challenged me to think. May God bless you!
Jabes