“America is Going Downhill Fast” . . . and Other Stupid Statements

Is America in a state of moral decline? Are we teetering on the edge of judgement from the angry hands of God? Maybe, but I am not as convinced as some are. What I do know is that nostalgia is a common condition among us politically conservative Christians. “If we could only get back to the way things used to be.” If we could only see how America is going downhill fast. If we could only see how far we are fallen in our morality. Divorce, gay marriage, socialism, abortion, and the like are often used to raise the big red flag and dictate our marching orders.

Fear. That is the word. Fear calls us to action. Fear, it could be argued, is as great a motivator as hope. And with the elections coming up, fear tactics seem to be used to take away hope. For years I have heard comparisons to the great civilizations of the past and how they fell. America, we are told, is not far behind. Once this type of fear begins to sterilize hope, the guns come out of the closet.

Now, don’t get me wrong. I have often admitted that I am a one-issue voter. Regardless of the importance of the myriad issues facing our society, abortion is the one my mind and conscience simply cannot overlook.  I pride myself in being able to see all sides of an issue, but this is one where I have never been able to see the “pro-choice” side and I don’t suppose I ever will.

However, that aside, I am not so sure that yesteryear looks much better than today. Getting back to the “glory days” of early America seems like a bit of wishful thinking where we are not fond of wearing our historians’ caps. Do we really want to get back there? Do we really think that we are in the death valley of American history? For me, it is hard to see how, excluding abortion, America was not worse then than it is now (or at least on equal footing). Here is a list of things that goes through my mind:

1. Over half a century ago, blacks were thought to be inferior to whites. In many cases they had to use separate restrooms, ride separate school buses, drink from separate water fountains, and a host of other unconscionable things.

Let that sink in for a bit.

2. I don’t think women were better off. Back in the “good ol’ days,” it was culturally acceptable for husbands to beat their wives. It took activists nearly 100 years to win women the right to vote in 1920.

3. Going back a bit further, we had people who fought and died to keep slavery a part of the American “dream.” Not only this, but they did it with a gun in one hand and a Bible in the other.

4. How about the glory days of child labor?

5. What about eugenics? You know, the evolution-based sanction upon those who the courts decided were so mentally  unstable that they should not be able to have kids that might inherit the same dysfunction. In all, 60,000 Americans were sterilized in the name of hope for mankind. We were one step away from being Nazis.

Maybe we should go back even further.

6. In the 19th century, prostitution was ingrained within the culture to such a degree that there were over 200 brothels in lower Manhattan alone. It is estimated that nearly seventy-five percent of men in New York had a sexually transmitted disease. And that is uphill from today when we talk about sexual ethics.

I could go on.

Am I missing something about the glory days?

I don’t mean to say that the moral climate of our world today is not terrible. The breakdown of the family, the killing of the unborn, homosexual marriage, and the intellectual persecution of Christians are terrible. In many ways we have become a lot worse. But in many ways we have become much, much better.

I don’t think America is going downhill morally. We have always been in the valley of depravity. Is our moral climate today THAT bad? Yes. But it is not THAT much worse than before, is it?  God’s judgement was as deserved then as it is now. I just don’t like all the talk about how bad things have “become.” God’s grace sustains us now as it did then. Let’s keep improving and fighting for human rights, the family unity, sexual morality, and all these things. But let us also realize that we live in a broken world. No matter where you go in history, I don’t see it being too far “uphill.” And maybe we should tone down the fear propaganda in the church. It might get some donations here and there, sell some books, preach some good sermons, and get people fired up, but it also fails to take its cue from history.

57 Responses to ““America is Going Downhill Fast” . . . and Other Stupid Statements”

  1. Good points! You made an early comment about being driven by fear, but you’re right – are we “worse” now than before, or just morally corrupt in a new way?

    What will the moral bankruptcy look like 150 years from now? Can we even imagine it? 150 years ago, could *they* imagine *this*? Are we worse now? Maybe maybe not. Will we be worse in 150 years? Maybe maybe not. But should the Lord tarry, one thing we do know is that we will still probably be morally bankrupt. And the followers of Christ will live in that world, too.

  2. I appreciate your mindset on so many issues Michael. Often I find myself saying, especially in posts such as this, that this is exactly what I was thinking. Thank you.

  3. Michael, where did you get your statistics from? I’d like to do some reading in this area? Thank you.

  4. CMP,

    We could get lost in all of the sea of social statistics if we wanted to.

    10 people EACH NIGHT are getting shot in my hometown of Chicago. Is that “better” or “worse” than domestic abuse?

    You brought up slavery, which was indeed horrible. Can anything be worse than that? Well, how about the 50 MILLION aborted babies in this country since Roe vs. Wade?

    If we debate this we risk turning the back-and-forth exchange into a show like Crossfire or Hannity.

    As Christians, we should make 1 question the most important question; answer it; and then decide if this is indeed a “stupid statement”.

    For example, my #1 most important question would be: in the last 60 years, has the USA become more God-centered, or more secular?

    To me, this would be the truest barometer of a society going “to hell in a hand basket” or not.

    In other words:

    1) Has God been more and more removed from the average American’s life by our democratically elected Government in the last 60 years?

    2) Secular does NOT mean that people do not belief in God at all; rather, it means that God simply has no place in society. For example, public prayer: was their more public prayer in 1952, or 2012?

    Were more Bible stories taught in society, such as public schools, back in 1952, or 2012?

    “Does the United State revolve more around – or less around – the Holy Trinity?” is, for me, the question that matters most. All other comparisons degenerate into a Sociology 101 squabble at the local community college.

    And I think we all know what the answer to my question is: America truly has gone downhill in the past 60 years, no question about it. It is time for repentance, praying and fasting. Lord have mercy on us.

  5. It has always disturbed me not only the blind eye to things that have happened in this country (extermination of Indians, say the genocide in California during the gold rush), but a willful Pollyanna attitude of the good times in the past, a kind of Laura Ingalls Wilderazation of how perfect things were for the family, and then using those rose color glasses/blinders to then make proscriptions for how families should be run today.

  6. @pete again

    Exactly when did this country ever revolve around the Holy Trinity?

    How has our Gov’t removed God from the average american’s life?

  7. Hi Michael,

    You make interesting and I think valid points about the relative state of morality in America today vs. past generations. The thing that troubles me today though, is 1) it seems in the past the way people thought about morality and truth was at least in relation to a Judeo-Christian framework– but this framework seems to be eroding; and, 2) the conceptual determination of “truth” (if they it can be even agreed there is such a thing) is heavily influenced by postmodern thinking (what you have called “soft postmodernism”, in the church). And I think the waning influence of the Judeo-Christian worldview is correlated with a postmodern way of thinking about truth. Contrary to some who would embrace these developments as progress for the church and the cause of Christ, I believe this postmodern approach has had, and is having, an undermining effect on the Church’s ability to know and proclaim truth faithfully.

  8. Btw these two rather new books by D.A. Carson would be right in this area:

    The Intolerance of Tolerance, Eerdmans, 2012; and Christ and Culture Revisited, Eerdmans, 2008/12..paperback.

  9. @david carlson

    OK, if you are a Christian, than the Holy Trinity = God. God is being slowly but gradually removed from the public square.

    Check out references to God and the Almighty in the Declaration of Independance and the Bill of Rights.

    In the last 60 years, we have experienced a slew of secular legislative changes by our government: laws against public prayer, removing the 10 Commandments from government buildings, churches not being able to meet in in public schools on Sundays, “In God we Trust” being removed from our money, “Freedom of Worship” replacing “Freedome of Religion”, gay issues, etc.

  10. @Pete Again, you ask a lot of good questions, but I think you’re giving the government too much power over a spiritual thing.

    Has the USA become more god-cenered or more secular? More secular, to be sure. But things will always cycle. If America was more god-centered before than it is today, what was it before it was more god-centered? More secular. it’s a cycle.

    Has God been more and more removed from the average american family by our democratically elected government? Absolutely not! The average american family has, drifted away from god, but the government didn’t take Him from us. Blame the church if you like, or blame the families themselves, but you can’t blame the government. If the average American family has left God, it wasn’t because the government took him from them.

    My family lives under the same democratic government yours does. Yet the government didn’t take God from my family. And it hasn’t taken him from yours or theirs, either.

    And no, I’m not a democrat. I just happen to agree that God ordains authority. He puts it in place and he takes it down. The soveriegnty of God does not make sense to me, but what is clear to me is that the children of God will always have to live within a morally bankrupt world. That’s what Grace is. Have you read Ecclesiastes? it doesn’t all make sense, and it doesn’t all add up. But it does all happen under God’s watchful eye.

    Given that God has placed those in power that he has, how will you, as a child of God, respond? Rosa parks rightfully responded the way she did and changed America. I, on the other hand, am no Rosa Parks. I am just me. living the life God has called me to live in the environment he has ordained.

  11. i think the biggest moral decline has been in the church itself. Now there are some Christians who are pro-abortion, pro-same sex marriage, and anti-creationism, even though the Bible very strongly speaks against those things.

    We Christians need to re-examine ourselves before we accuse anyone else of causing a moral decline.

  12. right on, @mbaker! Nobody can or has changed God’s word. Or, for that matter, God. If we have slipped, it’s not any government’s fault.

  13. The visible and historical churches have been in something of a slow but certain downgrade biblically and theologically for years really. Now we can see apostasy in even the Evangelical Churches (so-called). And certainly the postmodern culture has been part of this, and now we have a full-blown culture of postmodernity! Now it is, as the culture goes, so goes the Church!

  14. I agree with both of you. Easy to say it is society’s fault but we Christians should be leading the way, not following, or fighting against cultural trends per se, because Jesus never did that, but instead pressed on to lead folks to God, even though he lived in one of the worst political climates ever.

  15. @mbaker: I am not saying that this is all the culture’s fault, but there was a time when the Judeo-Christian culture greatly effected the culture. But, since this world is ever evil and fallen, we will never completely change this, but indeed those days are gone now, when we Christians were really affecting the culture, and indeed it is our loss as Christians. But, this is a time, a much more real time, of apostasy in the Christian Church!

  16. Fr. Robert,

    I know you didn’t mean to imply that. Yet just because this a time of greater apostasy, should we give up on the gospel and throw up our hands? No, I think it is even greater a time than we have have had to give folks some hope,and proclaim it is as an antedote. If we just say that apostasy is winning we deny the power of Christ to overcome all. But I , unfortunately, think many Christians do this nowadays.

  17. To borrow from Chesterton, the Church has been declared dead many times, but we have a Lord who knows the way out of the grave.

    No, society is not “worse” than the old days. As when dealing with women, don’t assume that people who sin differently from you are more virtuous than you are. Even Solomon tells us, “there is no new thing under the sun.”

    That said, the people of the Church need to engage the culture instead of always being seen to be throwing stones. Jesus reserved his harshest condemnation for those religious leaders who placed burdens on others but wouldn’t raise a finger to help them carry them.

    It isn’t the job of Christians to maintain the culture. It is the job of Christians to build the kingdom of God. Jesus’ didn’t teach “do unto others,” that was simply summarizing the Jewish law as teachers like Hillel had already done. Jesus said “love your enemies,” and America would be a better place if his followers remembered that.

  18. I am convinced that one of the problems with the American church is we need to let go of the past. Whether it was or was not that much better, we need to evaluate where we are and build from there. But I find that when we emphasize the past we produce a sense of entitlement (people ought to respect us) which leads to fear and anger. We need rather to recognize that we are Christians in a fallen world and can expect that world to oppose us and go forth with confidence in God to make an impact on it.

  19. I don’t think it’s such a “stupid statement”.

    To me, and many others, we are coming apart faster than any other time in the last hundred years. Basic American ideals are under attack from large segments of our society and from the highest levels of political office down through the public school systems of this country.

    We may not be able to survive it.

  20. Speaking as an Irish Brit, we find it hard to let go of the past, but then we have Henry the VIII, the English Reformation, the Elizabethan Settlement (Anglican), not to mention Scotland, as to the Irish Reformed Protestants, Ireland. And of course the great Evangelical Revival! Not to mention the English Civil War! All of which religion played such a central part. And I wonder how many Americans know and care that George Whitefield is buried in Boston, Mass? And that early, of course before the American Revolution John Wesley had visited America!

    I find it sad too, that America has jettisoned its religious history, from Quakertown, to the South! Though at least in some of the South, they seem to be trying to hold to something of a Judeo-Christian reality. Note, I have been in America for over almost the last four years now. If America can get rid of Obama, and the liberal Dem’s, they might have a chance again? (Sorry the last line is political, and I am something of an Edmund Burke conservative! ;)

  21. “Civilization hangs suspended, from generation to generation, by the gossamer strand of memory. If only one cohort of mothers and fathers fails to convey to its children what it has learned from its parents, then the great chain of learning and wisdom snaps. If the guardians of human knowledge stumble only one time, in their fall collapses the whole edifice of knowledge and understanding….And the generation that will go down through time bearing the burden of disgrace is not the one that has said nothing new—for not much new marks the mind of any age—but the one that has not said what is true.”—Rabbi Jacob Neusner (Of course this is a Jewish quote, but none-the-less, right on the money!

  22. The church has much to learn from history about how to deal with heresy, which never dies but keeps resurfacing in new forms.

    Above, Mike Erich wrote, “But I find that when we emphasize the past we produce a sense of entitlement (people ought to respect us) which leads to fear and anger.”

    This is not a clear statement at all. Perhaps you mean that if the Church speaks of how it was once strong and influential but now is not as dominant in Western culture, that this will produce a sense of entitlement in believers? But I don’t see how emphasizing the past in this way would produce the sense of entitlement. If perhaps the Church feels it ought to be respected today because of its past authority, then it might speak as if it was entitled to respect. But then the sense of entitlement would already exist– it would not be produced merely by speaking of the past in this way.

    “Which leads to fear and anger” Whose fear and anger? What kind of fear and anger?

    I agree with Mike’s last statement that “we are Christians in a fallen world and can expect that world to oppose us and go forth with confidence in God to make an impact on it.” But one of the key reasons we can expect the world to oppose us is because it always has, so we ought to learn from history how to most effectively fight the battles we’ll face by using the methods that worked in the past and recognizing the old attacks that have arisen in new forms.

  23. Ecclesiastes 7:10 ‘Say not, “Why were the former days better than these?” For it is not from wisdom that you ask this.’

  24. Btw, just a side note, I am myself pro-Israel, i.e. “Biblical” Israel…Salvation History, Covenant & covenants, (Rom. 9:3-5 ; 11: 28-29 ; 15:8)…And too, we Gentiles have been “grafted into”, the the promises and Covenant/covenants to “Israel” (Rom. 15:9-10, etc.), but the Gentile Apostasy is quite under way, as “the times of the Gentiles” are being fulfilled, (Lk. 21:24-28, etc.). Noting also, Matt. 25:1-13!

    WE must be aware of the Signs of the Times & Seasons! Modern/Postmodern Man/Humanity is at the End of the Age! (Rom. 13: 11-14)…the moral signs also! (Which have always been there, but press us more even now!)

    That’s the way I see it anyway! ;)

  25. Obama and his ilk are definitely part of the problem, but it does go much deeper than that.

    Nothing lasts forever, and I’m afraid that those who think our country was meant to be a Democracy (wrong – it was founded as a republic) will vote themselves money and goods and will break this place and then it will morph into something else…but not the America that we knew.

  26. For those whould would blame liberal governmental policies for the decline in morality, how do you explain the fact that the majority of our leadership since 1853 (when the two major parties have been republican and democrat) has been republican? if government can be blamed, why haven’t things *improved* given that more than 1/2 of the governmental terms since 1853 have been held by republicans?

    Or even look in the nearer term. Since Nixon took office in 1969, we’ve had 7 republican terms and only 4 democrat terms. Yet we blame the decline on liberal policies??

    I’m not saying liberal policies are right, or that they aren’t a problem. I’m just saying they aren’t the *cause* of the problem. They’re the *effect* of a spiritual decline in individuals.

    And I say that as a political conservative.

  27. @Steve: I agree, and I am a Brit! ;)

    @Mike O: We must see the doctrine of sin here, and the long slide (since Paul’s time), of “the mystery of iniquity” (2 Thess. 2:7, etc.) Indeed the answer is always biblical and theological!

    But surely, in my opinion, America, as Great Britain (so-called), will fall…at least as we know them! Lord, I wish I were wrong, but I really doubt it! :(

  28. I don’t think we’ve gotten rid of slavery. I’ve read in numerous places that there are in fact, more slaves in the world today that there have ever been. What we’ve done is that we’ve shoved slavery (or unfree labor or whatever you call it) into 3rd world countries and patted ourselves on the back for being so good. But there is still slavery, and we still benefit from it. Why do you think “Made in China” products are so cheap?

    Most people view war as a necessary evil. As a price for human civilization. I suspect that before the industrial revolution, most people viewed a coerced underclass the same way, and it may have been so. I don’t think we really make moral progress, we just change our sins.

    I think Mark Twain may have said this, but it’s a good quote…

    “A conservative is someone who wants to keep the current evils in society… and liberal is someone who wants to replace them with new ones.”

  29. I think Alex Jordan in comment #9 hit the nail on the head. If you compare yesteryear with today by looking at various ethical issues, some have improved while others have deteriorated, and you could argue ad infinitum about whether it’s better or worse overall. But I think the worrying aspect of today’s society in the UK (and I suspect the USA will probably follow suit) is that the very concept of right & wrong is disappearing. The boundary between truth & error is blurred. What’s right and true for me is not necessarily right and true for you. Each person may do whatever he feels is right for himself personally, and there are no objective standards to live up to. No one has the right to criticise or resist anyone else. So people tolerate everyone else’s views and behaviour regardless of how unreasonable, gross, or wicked. I think this abondonment of any kind of moral framework is a sure sign of society’s decline.

    Plus I observe in the UK that people are becoming more dysfunctional. The bulldog spirit that spurred ordinary people to perform heroic deeds in the two world wars is disappearing. Self-discipline, self-sacrifice, valour, stickability, and moral integrity are waning. Instead I notice an increasing spinelessness, obsession with self, and a sense of entitlement which makes people less able to cope with life’s hard knocks and less able to form stable relationships with other people, leading to the breakdown of family life and hence the crumbling of the fabric of society.

  30. Hi Michael – I enjoy your work. However, for the life of me I can’t figure out how giving women the right to vote has been a ‘good thing’ Western society has done. I know this sort of equality ‘feels good’ and all that jazz, but when the majority of women have, consistently throughout history, voted for liberals for attributes that have nothing to do with their ability to govern (studies show a significant percentage of women voted for Clinton, for example, because they thought he was good looking), I don’t see how giving them the ‘vote’ has contributed to anything but the collapse of our culture and civilization.

    I’m talking percentages here – of course a percentage of men vote ‘stupid’ and a percentage of women vote ‘smart’ (stupid being liberal and smart being conservative – remember this is from a conservative’s pov). But the general trend cannot be denied – the majority of women are unfit to ‘rule’ or have a say in who rules.

    I understand there’s no going back, but women’s suffrage has been a complete unmitigated disaster. The vote should be decided per family, with a woman’s input being considered by her husband.

  31. I don’t visit this blog often, but I am frequently impressed by Michael’s thoughts when I do. And this post is no exception. What is exceptional, is how few of the regular commenters agree with the post!

    I think Michael nails it here, and in a way that needs to be heard as we Christians begin to be formed, yet again and more deeply, by waves of political ads and other media we put into our heads and hearts. I’m glad Michael specifically asked that we let at least one of his points sink in. We should let them all sink in, and it will take time. It will take time because most of us have heard, if not repeated, the opposite for so long and so often. Preachers and pols alike use fear repeatedly when they really want us to move. The sky has been falling for so long and so hard now that we should all be in deep space, and when I see how we allow the pols to shape and move us, I think we might be.

    And FWIW, Michael, I have been and might continue to be a one-issue voter if I thought that my many votes would have any impact at all on abortion. I have 20 years of pro-life votes that have done next to nothing on that issue. At this stage, if I think about how few of the people I vote for will have any say at all about abortion, it’s hard to justify using my vote on that basis. I might as well hire and fire my secretaries based on their pro-life stance for all the good it will do.

  32. After re-reading the post and the comments, I am even more convinced of the post! Amen, Michael. I pray it gets a wide and deep hearing.

    Scott (31), I really hope you’re an expert satirist; if so, you’ve got skill. If not, God bless; I wish you the best.

  33. T, no it’s not satire brother. Unfortunately it’s the truth. Uncomfortable, yes, but the truth. As a nation we’re declining in every way morally, but we’re supposed to believe that all these social ‘gains’ we’ve had over the past hundred years are for the best. Really? All of them? Don’t get me wrong – Nobody is for slavery or any sort of maltreatment or inequality under the law, but the cultural marxist state that these ‘gains’ have put us under doesn’t result in good government, period.

    Apparently you disagree. Fine, show me where I am wrong. How has women’s suffrage helped this country’s political state? Without women, most of the ‘liberal’ presidents, possibly every one, would not have been elected.

    After all, liberalism is basically ‘woman think’ put into public policy. Let’s ‘help’ the helpless and all that, with YOUR taxpayer money.

    Again, there are exceptions, but the numbers have always trended this way. So, I suppose I agree with the spirit of Michael’s post, insofar as things have always run in cycles and just because we are in a downward cycle right now doesn’t mean it can’t get better (or, I might add, that the ‘rapture’ is imminent). I just don’t agree with using all of these social ‘gains’ as an example. Quite the contrary – they often contribute to the problem!

  34. Scott.

    Don’t think God is going to fall for that old tired argument. He sure didn’t in the first place.

    So let’s get past that, and preach the Good News of the gospel for all, if we want if really make a genuine change in our society, and that means being for something bigger, rather than against it our own personal beliefs.

  35. Scott,

    World’s worst typist, and really wish this site still had the edit function.

    To make corrections in what I meant:

    “So let’s get past that, if we really want to make a genuine change in our society and that means being for something bigger than our own personal beliefs.”

    The church needs to get going on that, rather than complaining how put upon we are by society, because we’ve got the power of Christ against sin in the gospel, man or woman.

  36. Yeah, so true – it’s just like how sometimes people idealise one culture over another, think one culture is perfect or better and another is the devil. We always need to remember that every people, place and time is fallen, yet also contains the remnants of God’s good creative work.

  37. Scott,

    We do disagree. Honestly, the disagreements are so fundamental it will be beyond a comment section to explore with depth. Firstly, if you don’t see the disrespectful nature of your comment toward women, I doubt that I will be able to help you see it. You may have women in your church that you respect who will be honest with you. You may want to ask them if you are being disrespectful to women, and they may convince you. I can tell you as a father of two girls, your comments reveal a kind of disrespect for women that I would encourage my girls to avoid, though they would likely see that clearly on their own.

    Secondly, saying that liberal and/or redistributive policies are “basically ‘woman think'” has many problems. One is that we have in our scriptures a set of laws that God himself designed for his people, and they included all kinds of legally mandated ways of giving help to those that needed it, some of which are far more aggressive than anything we’ve attempted in this country, even though our bankruptcy shows their influence. The point is that laws requiring help to the poor, while often unpopular among men and women, especially those who have wealth, is something that God himself implemented when he set up laws for a nation. Regardless of what you may think about the wisdom, purpose or applicability of what God mandated for Israel economically, God’s example as a lawmaker, even for economic policy, is forever present in the scriptures. As a result, there is a much, much better biblical argument that legally required sharing/redistribution is “God-think” rather than “woman-think.” This (recent) libertarian idea that God himself is opposed to legally mandated help for the poor is counter to God’s own conduct. If you want to disagree (as I often do) with how America does this or that or the degree, good. But your comments as they stand are more insulting to God and to women than helpfully engaging with either.

  38. I would most certainly agree with “T” here! And I am a Complementarian (though not hard). Of course see Gal. 3:28 here! I am a Brit right now in America (last several years), and I see and know some fine conservative women! Funny, I know and have seen some simply overt liberal men too, so-called Christians. WE are simply in an age of so-called ‘The Intolerance of Tolerance’ (see D.A. Carson’s new book title here, – Eerdmans, 2012). ;)

  39. It’s been my observation that blaming one race or gender or economic group, or for that matter anyone who doesn’t agree with our beliefs has always been the popular thing to do. The trouble is it puts a too narrow focus on ‘them’ and what we see as ‘their’ inadequacies, while denying our own share in the causing or correcting the ills of the country.

  40. Well-said.

    In fact, what exactly is new under the sun? At what point were we humans ever better off since the initial fall from grace?

    The human race will continue its path until the end days, whenever that may be.

    Nonetheless, I’m still a (relatively speaking) liberal. :D

  41. T – Yes our differences are indeed fundamental in this area, but really, that’s OK. My main point is that, a generation from now, people who say gays never should have been allowed to be married will be met with the same incredulity and ‘righteous indignation’ as I am met with today by saying the simple, truthful things above. The cultural marxists are incrementalists – one societal change after another and pretty soon you have a globalist one-world Babelist tyranny… pretty close to what we have today.

    I know anti-suffrage puts me in a tough position in the eyes of many – the camp of those who would be oppressive or disrespecful to women. They couldn’t be more wrong. Women’s suffrage has nothing to do with disrespect toward women, only differences in what works. It’s just not been a good move, and nobody who has commented on this topic has brought up a good reason to think otherwise.

    By the way some folks react to this idea, one would think that prior to the 20’s women lived in caves, allowed to come out only when dragged by the hair to cook and clean. Need I remind those folks that chivalry is a much older concept than women’s suffrage.

  42. I won’t be here in another generation (40 years) I am almost 63, and only God knows if Christ will not have come by then? But, this position and idea is simply a personal one, so the issue is really mute, and certainly does not involve or see the providence and will of God! Women are equals before the throne of grace and God! It is true however, that if Romney does not get some more women’s votes, he will perhaps not win the American election? But again, that’s up to God! Note I am a conservative Brit myself, and pray Romney/Ryan do win! ;)

  43. Looking back to Scott’s 1st comment #31, it seems he is saying the reason women’s suffrage was a mistake was that women tend to vote liberal. And history may, in fact, prove that out. But Scott’s agrument leads him down down one of three logical paths …

    1) Because women tend to vote liberally, women’s suffrage was a mistake. If that is the case, then by extension Scott is implying that people who tend to vote liberally (or, “not like Scott”) should not be allowed to vote, or …

    2) If women had tended to vote conservatively, women’s suffrage would not have been a mistake. If that is the case, then by extension Scott is implying that people who vote conservatively (or, “like Scott”) should be allowed to vote.

    The only logical conclusion to draw from these 1st two paths is that Scott thinks only people who think like Scott should be allowed to vote.

    3) Regardless of how women would have voted, they should not have been given the right to vote. If this is the case, Scott, how is that *not* disrespectful or oppressive towards women?

    Unless I’m missing some 4th alternative??

  44. Mike O – challenging post – love it! :)

    First of all, let’s drop the ‘like Scott.’ Sure all parties and candidates are flawed, but if anyone on this forum wants to make the case for Carter, Clinton, or Obama I’m all ears, but I doubt that will be forthcoming. Most of us are evangelical and, by tradition, politically conservative.

    Good questions though! My choice is #3. The WAY women have voted would not have been a surprise by the opponents of suffrage back then, and is not a surprise to me and those who would oppose it now. Women THINK differently. Sure, they are just as smart, just as valuable in the eyes of God, but their talents, overall, do not shine in the area of public policy. (Of course, again, there are exceptions.)

    Just as women should not lead in the home, they should not lead in government. It’s quite logical, and the opposite of disrespectful. AFter all, the ‘vote’ is only one of a plethora of societal ‘gains’ women have made that have taken them out of hearth and home and God’s proper role and into the belly of a vicious cycle. Would anyone here really make the case that generations of children haven’t suffered as a result?

    Think about it – with the advent of women’s suffrage and every other ‘gain’ that has led to most women joining the workforce, the influx of labor makes it nearly impossible for the average man to make a living for his family. And now, most women who would like to stay home almost have no choice but to throw themselves into this system, a system we have created under the name of ‘equality.’

  45. Disagreements aside, one thing I do have to say for you, Scott, is at least you are intellectually honest.

  46. Gee whiz Scott!

    I guess giving African-Americans the right to vote was a huge mistake too, because they vote liberal just like them women-folk!

    Honestly…you scare me.

    Anyone who has bothered to really study Christian history understands that Jesus’ attitude, treatment and interaction with women was REVOLUTIONARY. Up until that time, in all societies, women were considered little more than property. What Jesus left for his Apostles, and what they taught to the historical Church was pretty radical and it included addressing the wives of deacons as “deaconess” in many cases.

    And then there is Mary the Theotokos, a woman, and the first Christian to accept Jesus Christ into her heart. Who is the only human being to give God something that He didn’t already have? It was Mary, who have Him His humarity. Who is the only human being to “overide” Jesus Christ? It was Mary, at Cana. Mary, and a group of other women, were present at almost every major event in Jesus’ life.

    It is inconcievable to imagine Christianity without key, strong Christian women.

    Except during the celebration of the liturgies, in the early Chruch, women achieved an almost equal status to men. It came pretty close, albeing with differnt roles. Again, it is hard to over-state the importance of this. Look at Islam, look at the Hindi religions (i.e. satee), and the differences are plain. Christian women have been the bedrock of the Church from the beginning.

    Glory to God for all things

  47. Youve all missed Scotts point whether intentionally or not. He is not saying women are not equal in essence. He is only saying that women are not good voters and have proved it. Each of you have seemed to dodge his argument with non arguments proficiently.

    “It [feminism] is mixed up with a muddled idea that women are free when they serve their employers but slaves when they help their husbands.”
    ― G.K. Chesterton

  48. I don’t think Scott’s point was missed at all. And I too am bothered by his comment, echoing what Pete said in comment #48 (at least the first 1/2).

    If someone’s perceived or presumed capability to judge what is good for the society (i.e. someone else) is what qualifies them to vote or not to vote, that would probably rule out a significant chunk of the society, and essentially render the word “democracy” or “equality” meaningless. And politically speaking, that indeed is injustice.

    And I do get what he said about “lack of right to vote =/= disrespect toward so and so”. I have sometimes argued along similar lines that slavery of old is perhaps not that much worse than what we have today, which is arguably a more covert form of mass slavery. But in reality, those who had no right politically had little protection socially — because the majority in the “other” groups often have little or no interest in watching out for them — a well attested fact by history.

    That said, I think the best that Christians can do is to go where our conscience takes us. Where it would take me (if I were to vote), politically speaking, is to side with the liberals; but if it takes you to Romney’s side, then kudos to you too.

  49. I have not read much the comments but I am glad to hear someone finally say the truth about the fear the body of Christ has succumbed to. The fear is so substantial that our faith seen by our actions in the face of social and political conflicts seem to be under trial. I have wondered now for many months, “Where is our faith in God collectively?” It concerns me to think body of Christ tends put our trust in political candidates more that the confidence that God has it all under control….. is appalling. Sure we are to play an active in role in society as a model for Christ-like character in all that we do. Even though the fear of the future is what some of us experience, our focus should be that the Lord will complete His will in our lives even on a national level. We shouldn’t forget our focus to be missional especially to those that are not believers. I find myself more on my knees than bantering and complaining about the state of the circumstances. It should be obvious to us, that God is a prayer answering God. Grave mistakes have been made in the past but look as what has transpired. I believe it was due to the prayers those that remained faithful to God’s purposes and plans for humanity. I pray that after this election regardless of the outcome that our faith and focus will be on plans of God will be a the forefront not on our fears. Fear maybe a motivator but it can produce negative as well as positive outcomes. We overcome our fears by our faith. If I am afraid I check my trust barometer.


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