Parchment & Pen Blog

1. Michael Davis says:

   July 13, 2012 at 2:10 pm

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   Nice discussion guys.

   I’m surprised Acts 2:27 was not mentioned:
   “For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.”

   A distinction needs to be made between Hell and Hades – between the ANE view of the underworld (Hades, Sheol) and the eternal lake of fire (what we think of hell today). There seems to be different sections of Hades – place of torment, Abraham’s bosom, and Tartarus (prison for the fallen sons of god)

   2 Peter and Jude draw from wording used in the Book of Enoch – which deals with the fallen sons of god. So I agree with Sam that 1 Peter spirits refers to those sons of god.

   Ephesians is dealing with a variation of docetism – that Jesus and Christ were 2 different persons (1 human, 1 spirit). False teachers were saying that Jesus descended into Hades and Christ into heaven. That’s why Paul says “the same one”. Obviously I can’t go into detail about that here but the context of Ephesians and the Psalm it’s based on supports the idea.
2. Irene says:

   July 14, 2012 at 8:15 am

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   Very interesting!  I have a few questions now…

   1) You all were pretty much in agreement that Jesus didn’t go to THE hell. (I don’t think he did either.). But I didn’t hear any specific reason for this other than the “lake of fire” hell is still not “open for business”.  So is there a reason I missed?

   2) I’ll show my ignorance here–if Jesus didn’t go to capital “H” Hell, what does this mean for the substitution atonement theory?  I ask because that would mean sinners would have an eternity in a place Jesus never even was—that Jesus didn’t experience their entire punishment.

   3) So, your best guess interpretation you arrived at by the end of the discussion is incompatible with the corresponding clause in the Apostles Creed, and I didn’t hear any resolution regarding this aspect of your interpretation. You are ok with dropping or changing this clause of the creed?

   4). Come on, now!  (:  Not even a mention of the Limbo of the Fathers??  As the most traditional, probably most widely held interpretation population wise, doesn’t it deserve a mention?  
   You mentioned “spirits” not meaning human spirits because the word is no where else used like that, but is that alone a strong enough reason to jettison the traditional meaning? And a related question:  Is the Limbo of the Fathers, distinct from the Catholic Purgatory, incompatible with Calvinism?  If so, why?

   5) How you arrived at your conclusion seems a little “iffy” to me. You took one obscure passage in Genesis 6 and used it heavily to derive meaning from another obscure passage in 1 Peter 3 (at the same time dismissing out of hand the traditional meaning of 1 Peter 3.) You all are the trained theology guys, but this throws up red flags in my mind. In retrospect, are you really satisfied with interpreting like that?  Is it ok to do that? And a related question:  are you really that confident in your interpretation of Gen 6?

   6) Other related verses I wish you would have touched…
3. tory says:

   July 15, 2012 at 1:52 am

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   I have a question concerning the location of the spirits in prison. Peter describes it as being hell, I’m aware that this in the greek is tarturus , which from what I understand is borrowed from greek mythology and refers to bottomless pit. Where is this place? Is it in heaven? Next I just want to throw out a thought here that is connected with this verse and the one in genesis 6. If the sons of God are infact demonized humans who lived before the flood, and there sins with women brought about the flood. The flood would have killed the humans these demons were inhabitig so these demons would be flushed out, like a forced exorciscim. So with these demons removed from their human hosts they would be confined to hell? Which is where? The upper atmosphere maybe? if it is in the heavenly sphere then would it mean that just by jesus ascending up through their territory invading it so to speak he was showing his triumph over them?
4. Irene says:

   July 15, 2012 at 6:01 am

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   6) Other related verses I wish you would have touched on:

   Zechariah 9:11
   Thou also by the blood of Thy Testament hast sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit.

   Acts 2:24–Peter again!
   God hath raised up Christ, having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He should be holden by it.

   Psalm 89:49
   What is man, that he should live and not see death?  Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?

   Revelation 2:18 (prisoner/key motif)
   And I hold the keys of death and Hades. 

   I think that 1 Peter 3 passage would support a Part 2 podcast!  Thanks for the discussion. 

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