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Are Roman Catholics Saved?
by C Michael PattonMarch 28th, 2012
192 Comments
First, some fun:
- What is an Evangelical? A nice fundamentalist.
- How do you tell the difference between an Evangelical and a Fundamentalist? Ask them if they like Billy Graham. If they do, they are Evangelical. If they don’t, they are Fundamentalist (Fundamentalists believe he has compromised).
- Finally . . . How do you tell the difference between an Evangelical and a Fundamentalist? Ask if Roman Catholics are going to heaven. If they say “no,” they are Fundamentalists. If they say “maybe,” they are Evangelical.
Are Roman Catholics Saved? Short answer: I don’t know. However, don’t read to much into that. I don’t know if Protestants are Christian. I don’t know if many who go to my evangelical church are Christian. By “Christian” I mean someone who has truly been regenerated by God and is, as a result, a genuine disciple of Christ.
Of course, a better question that people are getting at is this: Do I believe that someone who is a committed member of the Roman Catholic Church can be a true Christian? To this I answer “yes.” Now, to be fair, I do not feel that the majority of Roman Catholics with whom I have come in contact are true believers. But, to be fairer, I don’t believe that the majority of Protestants (and Eastern Orthodox for that matter) with whom I have come in contact are true believers either! It is the problem of nominalism. Simply confessing to be a part of any Christian tradition does not mean that one truly embraces the ideals of said tradition. Christians are those who truly believe in who Christ is and do their best to follow him.
I think the most important question that has ever been asked in the history of the world is, “Who do you say that I am?” (Matt. 16:15). The confession of Roman Catholicism, along with that of Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy, has been united concerning this for two thousand years: “Jesus Christ is the God-Man who died for our sins and rose from the grave.” Getting that right is no small thing. In fact, I would say that to have a true belief in such a creed requires the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Roman Catholicism is to be commended, in my opinion, for being an ardent defender of the Trinity, the resurrection of Christ, and the necessity of belief in such. Though there are many passages I could turn to, I think 1 John 4:2 says more than we often give it credit for. In fact, I would say that this is one of the most neglected passages which could be used to defend the deity of Christ. Notice:
1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
Without getting too much into this (as it deserves its own blog post!), this passage teaches that a true belief that Christ is man and God is an indication that someone is “from God.” You may say that it only talks about his humanity (“in the flesh”) and not his deity. But I believe that implied within this is an assumption of Christ’s deity. Why? Because there would be no reason to deny that Christ had come in the flesh were it not assumed that he was God. I mean, how hard is it to deny that someone has come “in the flesh”, if they were only thought of as being human? It is a foregone conclusion that they have ”come in the flesh”! This passage makes no sense, unless it is assumed that a person believes that Christ is God. But the point that I want to make right now is that it is a big deal to believe in the humanity and deity of Christ. Think about how rare this really is outside of Christianity. Obviously, atheists do not confess this, but what about Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Hindus, and agnostics? They don’t have as an essential core to their confession (to say the least) that Christ is the God-man. The best of Catholics do. The best of Protestants do. The best of Eastern Orthodox do. It is because of this that I don’t easily dismiss Roman Catholics’ status before God. They get the “Who do you say that I am?” question right.
Not only this, but Catholics believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that we are sinners in need of grace. Even though they lean toward inclusivism since Vatican II, they still believe that there is no other name by which we must be saved. Again, this is significant stuff which, if truly believed, I don’t see how an unregenerate person can confess without salvific implications. All of this can be said about Eastern Orthodoxy as well.
Having said all of this, I am sure that many of my Protestant brothers and sisters are getting hot under the collar right now. I understand. Many of you are saying, “What about their worship of Mary?” “What about their acceptance of Purgatory?” “What about the Apocrypha?” “What about the Pope?” And, most importantly, “What about their denial of justification by faith alone?”
All of these are good questions and significant differences (some more so than others). I don’t want to undermine the importance of doctrine by saying that Roman Catholics can be saved. I hope you don’t see me doing this (though some will inevitably think I am). I am simply saying that the most central question in Christianity is, “Who do you say that I am?”, and they get this right.
So the question becomes, “How can someone believe and confess that their works contribute to their salvation and be saved?” (as Roman Catholics do). My answer is this: perfect doctrine does not save anyone. Sufficient doctrine is an indication that someone is saved. I believe deeply that justification is by faith alone (sola fide). However, I don’t think that justification comes through a belief in justification by faith alone. Put it this way: Heaven will not be inhabited by anyone who contributed to their justification. Some will get to heaven and they will find out how radical grace really was. In fact, I think all Christians will be overwhelmed by grace. The sanctification process, in some ways, can be summed up as this: the progressive realization that grace (undeserved and unmerited favor) is our only hope. I don’t think any of us really grasp this. Therefore, both Protestants and Roman Catholics will stand before God with a greater realization and confidence that our works had nothing to do with our present state of eternal blessedness. Roman Catholics will have a bigger learning curve than Protestants, in my opinion, but both of us will be overwhelmed by what grace really is. Most Roman Catholics will have a sudden realization that it truly was their faith in Christ alone that justified (Eph. 2:8-9).
So, where does that leave us? Does this mean that the doctrine of justification by faith alone is not important? Most definitely not. Paul exhorted the Galatians (who were justified, yet were replacing grace with the burden of law and works) not to “get saved,” but to live out the benefits of their salvation. The degree to which we are preaching justification without works is the degree to which we are preaching the grace of God. So we continue, as Paul did, to encourage people to take the burden off their backs…it is not ours to carry. I encourage Roman Catholics to do the same: realize how crazy, insane, radical, and beyond belief grace really is.
Protestantism is not perfect by any means. I believe we have a “fuller” Gospel understanding than Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (otherwise, I would not be Protestant!), but this does not mean we have a perfect understanding of the Gospel. However, we need to continue to spread the message of the Gospel that grace is only realized once we see that it is completely undeserved.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Similar Posts:
- First Things Blogcast #4: Catholics vs. Evangelicals on Justification
- An Emerging Understanding of “Orthodox” – Part 4: Are Catholics Orthodox?
- Does the Roman Catholic Gospel Save? or “Getting the Gospel ‘Righter’”
- The Reformation in a Nutshell
- 51% Protestant
192 Comments
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Just to throw it in there – no one (at that time) was denying that ‘Jesus’ came in the flesh. That Jesus was ‘the Messiah from God’ was more the point that was getting stuck in the throat of the Pharisees. ‘Christ’ isn’t a surname
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Ooh, You hit the nail right on the head!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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The answer is “no”.
By praying to Mary (the mother of the Lord Jesus) as well as the other “saints” they are engaging in idolatry. Ephesians 5:5 strictly warns against this. In fact, Revelation 21:8 teaches that those who do so will have their part in the lake of fire.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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In the end, it doesn’t matter what we say about others’ salvation. It isn’t our judgment. As such I have stopped asking that question about anyone. I don’t see it as a biblical question. If anyone leaves this life claiming they belong to the resurrection because Matt A. said so, there will be a lot of heavenly raised eyebrows and comments of “He’s lucky he’s here.” Now I may look for spiritual fruit and growth, because God did give us that responsibility with one another. And our conversation should always be filled with grace, and then it is the Holy Spirit’s job to convict and regenerate.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Great Post Michael! You have covered all the bases well! In the end, Christ and Christology, which includes the Incarnation, and His redemptive Death, Resurrection & Ascension are Salvation. Thank God for such mercy, grace and love, ‘In Christ’! And here lives the entire Body of Christ Redemptive: Catholic, Protestant & Orthodox; and all those true Christians in between.
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Here is a wrinkle for @Marc Taylor, does 2 Tim. 1:16-18 refer to praying for the dead Onesiphorus? Many Christians, say yes! Of course R. Catholic, Orthodox, and some Anglicans, etc. I will not comment myself now.
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I think that the most important question that has ever been asked in the history of the world is this: “Who do you say that I am?” (Matt. 16:15).
I think you are right on here. However, rightly discerning Christ’s person is not the only defining factor of redemptive truth. The second most important question is “How can I, a sinner, escape the judgment of the holy God and receive a place in His heavenly kingdom?” Roman Catholicism fails to give the Biblical answer. And in so doing fails in understanding who He really is.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Marc, Catholics don’t “pray to Mary.” We ask her to pray for us. That’s a really, really important distinction that most Protestants get wrong over and over again. Neither Mary nor the saints answer our prayers – God answers our prayers. Mary and the saints intercede for us, just as my pastor or my friend might intercede for me. That’s all there is to it.
To suggest that asking others to pray for us means that we are not “saved” is completely baseless.
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Catholics are saved by the waters of Baptism. But it doesn’t end there. We are saved, we are being saved and we hope to be saved. It is a past, present and future reality.
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Michael,
Thank you so much for posting this. Just last night my husband and I were discussing this very subject! I have a good friend who is as Catholic as the pope! I have made her aware a few times of the serious issues in Catholic doctrine. I want to make sure she knows the truth and experiences the freedom in Christ that I do. She loves the Lord, and believes, but she also works very hard to be a “good Catholic”. So last night I asked my husband if he thinks Catholics are saved if they have faith PLUS works.
Thanks for the timely post. I tend to agree with you.
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Editing to say…I asked my husband if he thinks Catholics are saved if they ARE TRUSTING IN THEIR WORKS along with their belief in what Christ has done.
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We are saved by grace, but what about those scriptures that say we shall be judged and rewared according to our works? Also do Catholics “worship” Mary, as distinct from merely asking her to intercede on their behalf?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Begging your pardon, Mr. Patton, I don’t think you understand Catholic theology quite as well as you ought if you are to comment about the validity of our Church. Nor do many others here. We do NOT worship Mary, nor do we practice idolatry. We afford Mary the honor that is due to the woman who had such faith and trust in Jesus that she willingly laid down her body and soul to be used in bringing the Christ into the world for salvation. Purgatory is widely misrepresented in non-Catholic circles as a “second chance” or a “chance to work for salvation.” Neither is true. Purgatory is only the final and ultimate removal of all sin from our souls by the blood of Jesus, a necessary thing since we are all sinners (Rom 3:23) and nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev 21:27). If we die as sinners and enter heaven as saints, there *must* be some process to change us from one to the other. Purgatory is Jesus’ work, not ours. Catholics added *all* the New Testament books to the Bible, which you seem to use without qualms. As for our use of the Septuagint for the Old Testament, Jesus used it as Scripture, too, and I’d much rather follow His lead on this than use the Hebrew canon determined by anti-Christians in 91 A.D. We only deny justification by faith alone because Jesus did (Matt 7:20), and when every other Christian denomination has a human leader speaking for them and issuing doctrine – sometimes with no accountability in non-Denominational churches – why object to the pope?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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@Matt Anthony & @Fr. Robert, AMEN!!!
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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I did not mean to imply that Roman Catholicism worships Mary. It was just meant to comprise on of the common Protestant objections. Catholics just ask Mary and the Saints to pray for them (not unlike we ask others to pray for us). However, it must be admitted that some do elevate her status to a place reserved for God as Protestants sometimes elevate the Bible as an object of worship. Hopefully there can be some internal discipleship in both traditions so that straw men are not retained in these discussions on either side.
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Ah this will be a lively debate and fill my In Box.
I come from a Russian Molokan family. Sometimes called Spiritual Jumpers. I never got into their beliefs, kind of hard to since all the services were in Russian. As I poke around and pick up tidbits here and there I’m surprised what I find, but they explain a comment my mother would occasionally make, “He or she (an individual) knows Christ.” She meant that despite being Molokan or Catholic or whatever denomination, they were saved.
Very few are “as Catholic as the Pope.” I’ll bet even the Pope isn’t that Catholic. Few actually agree, follow and know every bit of doctrine and practice of the denomination or organization they are a member of. Very few.
And outsiders often have misconceptions. It was fairly recently that I discovered that the Immaculate Conception was about Mary’s conception, not Jesus’.
As I said, this will be a lively one.
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This topic is on my mind almost every day. I worry about relatives who go to church, but have never read their Bibles or barely have ever mentioned Jesus in any conversation. They go to church because of tradition. My wife once told one of her family members Jesus is God and the family member who had been going to church for 50 plus years didn’t know Jesus is deity. I have come to the conclusion we don’t need to go outside of the church to evangelize we can evangelize to people sitting around us in church!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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“I am sure that there are many of my Protestant brothers and sisters are getting hot under the collar right now. I understand. Many of you are saying, “What about their worship of Mary?” “What about their acceptance of Purgatory?” “What about their other books they add to the Bible?”’
Michael, what jumped out at me from your article was this quote and how ignorant so many of your Protestant brothers & sisters are of Roman Catholic doctrine (or at least, that is how you are portraying them).
Other commenters have addressed these issues well, but the most egregious to me is the “added books to the Bible” argument, which is indeed the belief by the vast majority of American Protestants. In fact, the 2nd generation Reformers REMOVED books that Christians had used for 1500 years, not the other way around.
Jesus Christ read from the Greek Septuagint Old Testament in Luke 4. (If this is news to anyone, please look it up!) Most of the quotes in the New Testament (at least 2/3) can be traced back to the Old Testament that the Roman Catholic Church uses. The churches of Antioch, Phillippi, Ephasus, Crete, Thessalonica, etc. used the Greek Septuagint Old Testament in all of their readings and worship!
For American Protestant folks who consider their churches to be “based upon the Bible”, you would think that they would want to learn the basic facts about where their Bible came from. The hard truth is that the RCC uses the Bible of the Early Church, not them!
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P.S. the family member was going to a Protestant church. Terribly sad and frightening to think about the awful surprise some people will receive after death who have been going to church most of their lives.
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Hello Robert,
Please explain more about 1 Timothy 1:16-18. I don’t see anything about praying for the dead.
————————-
Julie,
By asking Mary anything you are praying to her. RC theology has no qualms in praying to her as long as she isn’t receiving latria. Furthermore, the fact that RC’s believe she can hear and properly respond to all what is asked of her would mean that she knows the hearts. Kardiognwstes (heart-knower in Greek) is the same thing as being omniscient. Thus RC theology has placed her on equality with God in this area which is indeed frightening.
The false dichotomy between prayer and worship as seen in 1 Kings 18:26.
O Baal, answer us – prayer/worship
O Mary, answer us – prayer/worship
Praying to Baal is worshiping Baal and praying to Mary is worshiping Mary.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Mr. Taylor, to be more accurate, Catholics do NOT believe that Mary can hear our prayers on her own. We believe that God enables her to know our prayers somehow. Being God, you know, He is perfectly capable of enabling Mary to know our prayers just like He is perfectly capable of equipping somebody on earth with the gift of prophesy. As for her response, it’s only prayer. Catholics do not believe that Mary can generate miracles independently. We only believe she can take our needs before the Lord, much as she did in John 2. Above all, please know that Catholics DO NOT put her on an equal plane with God. We do not believe that Mary is our Lord, our God, our Savior. We do not believe she is a deity of any kind. If you don’t believe me, please take the time to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (you can find it free on line) and then you can read it for yourself.
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But why would we need a dead person to intercede for us when we have Jesus and why would a man or woman’s intercession carry more weight than God’s only begotten Son?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Sparki,
I love the fire and conviction behind your posts but I just wanted something straightened out for me. You said that Catholics don’t pray to Mary, but she’s just an intercession from us to God. In other words, you ask her (for example) to heal a friend, she then takes that request to God for him to do with it as he pleases. Correct? You then defended your position saying that God enables her to hear our prayers since she doesn’t know our hearts and she’s not omniscient. But tell me this, if God can hear us and needs to, in a way, tell Mary what we asked for, then why is she needed? Before Christ, sacrifices were needed as an intercession. Christ was the ultimate intercession for us so that we have direct access to him and longer need a sacrifice or a veil in the temple. Because Christ died for us, the veil was torn down and there is no need for intercession from us to him, so Mary has a no job when you think about it. Matthew 12:47-50 makes a really good point.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Mr. J. David, Jesus came to save us and give us eternal life. Mary’s not dead, nor is anybody else who resides in heaven. Jesus Himself said that a “good and faithful servant” is “put in charge of many things” (Matt 25). The saints who have left this world LIVE with Jesus, and they are still part of the Church and still praying for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Mary’s intercession does not replace Jesus as mediator. Her prayers are merely added to our own. Now, I am sure you are a follower of the teachings found in the New Testament. There, we read that we are to pray for one another and carry each others burdens. Do you say that this idea is wrong? Do you say there is no need to pray for each other because we have Jesus and no man or woman’s intercession carries more weight than His? I hope not! So it is with the prayers of Mary and the saints in heaven, except they have been made perfectly righteous by the Blood of Christ. The Bible says that the prayers of the righteous are extra-good (James 5:17). It never hurts to have as much prayer as you can get for any need you take before the Lord.
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This blog gets more ecumenical by the day! Throw out the whole Reformation while you’re at it. 400+ martyrs were burned at the stake to reclaim the gospel, not to get a “fuller understanding” of it.
What is saving faith? Can a person really have saving faith if they are trusting in their own works for salvation? Does Satan believe God became a man?
What’s next, a denial of the need for full repentance of known sins at conversion?
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Michael you said:
“….Paul exhorted the Galatians who were justified yet were replacing grace with the burden of law and works not to get saved, but to live out the benefits of their salvation. To the degree that we are preaching justification without works is the degree that we are preaching the grace of God. So we continue, as Paul did, to encourage people to take the burden off their backs…it is not ours to carry. I encourage Roman Catholics to do the same: realize how crazy, insane, radical, and beyond belief grace really is.”
Paul did not merely exhort the Galatians. He questioned whether or not they were even regenerate. He questioned if he had given them the Gospel in vain. And to those bringing the false Gospel of works? He called accursed.
People who were under the impression that their works contribute to their justification were somehow suspect in Paul’s mind. And those who propagated a system that encouraged such thinking … well it would seem he had no doubt as to what they were. He certainly didn’t think them to be bearer of a true Gospel. He didn’t suggest they didn’t have a full Gospel, he said they had a false one.
But this is nothing different than I have said for years now.
I was wondering what was up today when you and Tim were joking about what my reaction would be to this post. You got off easy… I didn’t read it earlier!
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Sparki,
So God created an omniscient being (Mary) who knows our prayers? Only God is omniscient.
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Michael,
Good to see you. How would you explain that the church for nearly 1600 years believed that works contributed to their salvation? We’re all those who believed in baptismal regeneration not saved? If so, does this mean that for 1500 years people did not have justification?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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M. Adriel, thanks. I answered part of your question above in my response to Mr. David. I think I define “intercessor” and “mediator” differently than you do. Christ is the sole Mediator, meaning He is the One who repairs our individual relationships with God, which we compromise with sin. An intercessor is not somebody who can repair a relationship. An intercessor stands beside you and speaks on your behalf. So I don’t think that Mary or anybody else is “out of a job” because Jesus died for our sins. In fact, as I pointed out above, the NT has plenty of exhortations to pray for each other well after the veil was torn. So there is obviously still a need to intercede for each other. And remember, we Catholics do not believe that Mary replaces Jesus in any way. Rather, Mary (and any other saint, living on earth or living in heaven), stands beside us and prays to Jesus with us and for us, and Jesus mediates on our behalf to the Father. Two very different roles. I also want to point out that Catholics and non-Catholics typically have a different definition of sanctification. Most non-Catholics tend to think that sanctification is being readied for heaven, while Catholics look at sanctification as God’s invitation to us to become participants in His Divine Will, meaning that He will use us to further His Kingdom on earth and in heaven, as we offer ourselves to Him for that purpose. (I was evangelical once and I find the Catholic definition far more appealing and Biblical.)
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Michael, the issue is whether works contribute to our justification. I, as a Protestant, do believe works contribute to my salvation (in respects to sanctification.)
I don’t know enough of church history to speak to whether people fully held to a works based justification, but I do know enough of history that for 1600 years, you can’t find anyone repudiating the doctrine of sola Fide. No, we only see that at Trent with a formal anathema proclaimed against justification by faith alone and anyone holding to it.
There is a difference in embracing error out of ignorance and embracing error out of willful rebellion. The early church I believe did the former where as a post-Trent Roman church did the latter.
Another thing, there is a difference between saying belief in the doctrine of sola Fide is required for justification and stating that a system which repudiates the doctrine is corrupt. There is a huge difference.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Mr. Taylor, I already answered your question above. We do NOT believe that Mary is omniscient or equal to God. We believe that God enables Mary to know our prayers, much like He enables a person on earth to know things through the gift of prophesy. Do you not believe that God has given certain people a gift of prophesy? It’s in the Bible.
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Also Satan cannot trust in Christ as there is nothing for him to trust in Christ for. Christ did not become the God-angel who died on a cross for the sins of angels. He became the God-man.
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Also, we don’t get more ecumenical all the time. In fact, one of the first ever blog posts on this site made this same argument in 2007. The is why I was on James White’s Dividing Line. He did not agree with me then. I figure he still does not agree.
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BTW: I just had a professor from John MacArthurs seminary write me and say he agreed with this post. So, I suppose, it can’t be TOO far out in Protestant left field.
Remember, our roots as Protestant go *through* the Reformation. They are not *in* the Reformation.
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CMP,
Works salvation was not present in every “Christian” for the first 1600 years. The doctrines of the RCC were developed mostly from 500 to 1500, and are still changing today. Even during that time there was a remnant: pre-reformers, Waldensians, etc.
Baptismal regeneration does not save. If some believed their baptism saves them, then by default they do not has faith ALONE in Christ ALONE. A person is not saved by their belief in sola fide, but by actually exercising sola fide.
To be clear, the discussion is not whether an attendee of a RC church can be saved, but whether a person who actually follows RCC teaching can be saved.
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Our roots are ultimately in Scripture. So when history departs from that, we have to go with the measuring rod God has deemed to be worthy.
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Carrie, it is unlike you to call into question your own tradition.
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Michael,
I gave that line of thinking up when I started reading the Church fathers. It is hard to miss that the church and the members therein believed that, at least, baptism was necessary. This was more assumed than developed. And there were not many pre-reformers that I know of who disputed this. They mainly disputed the papacy. So unless you want to say that the Gospel was completeltly lost for nearly 1600 yrs (a problem which would be much more significant in my opinion (not to mention placement with the likes of Joseph Smith) I think it is best to say the Gospel was obscured, though not enough that Gods saving power was not found.
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Yes my Lordship position is just dripping with Roman Catholicism.
I am glad you are around to remind me that I am the token Roman Catholic here at Credo otherwise I would be under the delusion you and Tim were!
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Mr. Michael, Catholics believe that baptism is Jesus’ work, not our own. So when a Catholic says they were saved from sin at baptism, they are not referring to the work of human hands, but the work that Jesus performs at baptism.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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As a Roman Catholic by birth, baptism, education and upbringing; and an Evangelical Protestant by choice, I would just like to say that some of these comments remind me that balance, moderation and Christian love are paramount to many of these discussions.
To Sparki: I didn’t read where CMP said RC’s worship Mary as you accuse him of doing. I know RC’s don’t… CMP is educated enough to know this as well.
To Mark Taylor: Please be kind to your fellow Christians. And yes, you do not get to decide who they are. God does. Just give them the benefit of the doubt. And read up a bit before commenting. It serves us all well.
To CMP: Thank you for writing this.
As I get older, I tend to realize more and more that many of these discussions unfortunately have a tendency to become accusatory and vitriolic even amongst Christian Brothers and Sisters.
May I ask all to re-read what you just wrote before you hit the “submit” button and wonder… would I say this to this particular person face-to-face if Christ was physically standing next to me. If you wouldn’t say it, ask yourself this: isn’t He here, present in the Spirit and reading over your shoulder anyway ? If you don’t believe that… we’ve got a bigger issue.
I will now do as CMP said in his FB post… run and hide
In Him
Mick
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CMP,
The question is not whether the gospel could be found or not. Of course it could, the Bible was still around wasnt it. Setting the tangent on church history aside (see Calvin, et. al.), are you saying that a person can believe that they are justified by faith plus works, and that qualifies for having faith alone? Doesn’t “alone” mean without anything else? I’m not talking about being justified by belief in sola fide (so no NT Wright doublespeak).
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Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
What was the gospel the Galatians received? If it was faith alone in Christ alone, then it was not faith + works, which is a contrary gospel, and those who preach it are accursed, anathematized. Can one be considered anathema by Paul and still be saved?
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It is unfortunate for a person to have faith in Christ and believe that this faith somehow energizes their works which play a role in their justification, but some people do. I wish we all had perfect faith, pure and undefined by doubt and pride, but I am afraid that this is reserved for glory. So can people be saved who believe they can lose their salvation, that obtaining from suicide will add a “just in case” work, or thinking that baptism contributes to their justification? Of course. We all have imperfect faith due to a chronic inability to accept Gods grace for what it really is. Some say “Christ saves me . . . I don’t know how exactly he saves me, I just know he does.” these may think Christ works through our works. But ignorance about how Christ saves will not de facto keep people from being Children of God. And it does not Always amount to a rejection of Christ.
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I think the Curse that Paul put them under (not just the teachers is further stated here:
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated by Christ; you have fallen away from grace” (Gal 5:4).
This, IMO, does not mean that they had lost their salvation but that they were rejecting the very power by which they were saved: grace. Hence, so lOng as one tries to live by works, they are not living by the Grace which they were saved by. The Gospel is not just an initial message about justification, but, as Paul argues, the means by which the entire Christian life is lived. Christians can be alianated from Christ and “fall from grace” to the degree that we don’t live out by means of the grace by which we have been saved. This is to be accursed.
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Sparki,
Having the gift of prophecy is far different from knowing the entire sum of thoughts of all the hearts. Tell me any prophet (besides Christ) who is able to know the hearts of all?
Do you believe that by praying to Baal (1 Kings 18:26) the prophets of Ball worshiping Baal?
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Mick,
The Bible makes clear that those who commit idolatry are not saved. I pointed this out in post #3.
Read up a bit? Yeah nice when you didn’t address that issue that I raised.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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RC has half of Christ: “Who do you say that I am?” It is a damnable heresy to get the other half wrong: What has Jesus done/is doing? If the reality of His perfect life imputed wholly as the only righteousness needed and available is denied, then you begin to have people trusting in their own contribution to salvation. This is a fruit of darkness, and it is ensconced firmly in the RC catechism. I love my RC friends, and indeed some may be saved in spite of all they are taught, (just as some evangelicals may be saved in spite of how poorly they are taught), but the RC Church and her doctrine are so twisted so as to be beyond orthodoxy… high Christology is only a part of the right and saving Jesus.
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CMP: “Now, to be fair, the majority of Roman Catholics with whom I have come in contact I do not feel are true believers. But, to be fairer, the majority of Protestants (and Eastern Orthodox for that matter) with whom I have come in contact I don’t believe are true believers!”
Dear CMP, you have impeccable judgment as a fruit-inspector. This is surely helpful to you in fulfilling the Great Commission that Jesus gave His disciples.
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CMP: “BTW: I just had a professor from John MacArthurs seminary write me and say he agreed with this post.”
That’s huge.
Not sure whether John MacArthur would agree with his professor, but that’s huge nonetheless.
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CMP’s post reminds me of this post that I just read the other day:
Why All Christians Are Actually Non-Denominational
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Truth unites,
That depends on what part of the post the professor agrees with and who it is. One rogue professor does not represent the whole seminary or The church or Johnny. He has been clear he does not hold to this view as evidenced in his sermons on RCC. In fact, most Reformed theologians, pastors and seminaries do not hold to CMP’s view here, which is rather rather modern.
Now many would hold that a Catholic could be saved by having fath alone by reading their Bible and still remain for a time in the church, but they clearly say it’s in spite of RCC dogma and not as a result of it.
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“Are Roman Catholics Saved?”
Some are…and some aren’t.
Just like every other batch of people sitting in the pews under the cross.
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CMP,
Accursed (anathema) does not mean they lost their salvation, but rather they never had it in the first place. Paul is very clear what anathema means, NET translates “let him be condemned to hell!”
Rom. 9:3 –
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
To be separated from Christ is clearly not a lack of living “by means of the grace by which we have been saved.” See 1 Cor. 12:3 and 16:22.
“To be anathematized then means far more than to be excommunicated. It means nothing less than to suffer the eternal retribution and judgment of God. The GNB comes close to capturing the essence of Paul’s tone in this passage, “Let him be condemned to hell!” We can gauge something of what this curse must have meant to Paul’s readers by looking at a curse in one of the documents found among the Dead Sea Scrolls…” – Timothy George (NAC), so Bruce, MacArthur, Lightfoot, Kittel’s,
Also realize that this condemnation is given on these teachers not only because they have changed the gospel, but also because of the damage it does to those who believe it. Those who believe this false gospel are also lost, which is why Paul so strongly condemns the teachers. “If men are taught a false gospel, they are being led from the one thing that can save them and are being turned to destruction” – Boice (EBC).
CMP, is there any evangelical scholar who takes anathema to mean what you say…
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Interesting post. Here is a related and important topic that I find very interesting: the certainty of salvation in the Church at Rome:
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/08/st-thomas-aquinas-on-assurance-of-salvation/
I’m getting ready to respond to this gentleman again, who seems to have some good points, but overall I think is simply wrong (I’m a serious Lutheran by the way)
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Who held and taught the fullness of the truth of Christianity for 1500 years after Christ? Protestants? Oh right, they didn’t exist.
“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?…So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” James 2: 14, 17
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Thank you, Michael. I very much agree with this post and appreciate it. I made very similar arguments to one of the pastors at my church after a sermon in which the argument was made that “if you believe you are justified by good deeds that Christ helps you perform, then you don’t belong to Christ, you belong to the Judaizer party, which Paul calls enemies.”
My challenge to the pastor was “So, imputed righteousness is absolutely necessary to salvation but it is not necessary that it be understood for one to be saved, though understanding it will help me know and praise God as I ought. I may even be deceived about how God goes about saving me and yet, if I repent of my sins, trusting in Christ and him crucified, I will be saved.”
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Michael,
I don’t know of many, other than a few popular Evangelical and Fundamentalist preachers who take the position that anyone who believes that works contribute anything to their salvation are *de facto* not saved.
Again, the issue is tremendous. To say that anyone who believes such is to anathematize the majority of Church history before the reformation, including St. Augustine! You dismiss this too easily and I don’t think you are wrestling with the implications. To say that people still read their Bibles fails to understand that people did not have Bibles. They were not easy to come by (to say the least). The mass majority could not even read. They had to rely on the teaching of the church and just about everyone at least assumed some sort of baptismal regeneration.
Concerning anathema. This word is used six times in the NT. It is never theological, but rhetorical. Yes, it means “burn in hell” but it functions not unlike our “burn in hell.” It does not carry prophetic value in the sense that the curse itself has the intrinsic value to accomplish its vocative in an actual way. It is hyperbolic rhetoric. This should be obvious as Paul says that if we “or an Angel from heaven . . . Let him be anathema.” Paul is not suggesting from this that it is actually possible for an angel “from heaven” to go to hell. Admittedly, we don’t know much about angels, but I would look with suspicion upon someone who had this verse in support of an angelology that said angels can actually be accursed.
We find this same type of usage in the other occurrences in the NT. For example, in Acts 23:14 the enemies of Paul *put themselves* under an “anathema” until the killed Paul. Of course, we do not take this as literal. They did not have the authority to do so and they did not believe they did either. As well, in Romans 9:3 Paul uses the same rhetoric as he wishes himself anathema for the sake of his brothers and sisters. In 1 Cor. 16:22 it says “If no one has love for the Lord, let him be anathema.” Again, rhetoric pronouncing the seriousness of the issue, but not to be made to walk on all fours theologically. Angels from heaven cannot be accursed.
This is why I say that the best we can get from the context is to see how serious it is (which I have said in the OP). To believe and teach that works contribute to our salvation is to “fall from grace.” This is the context that I would keep anathema in. And I do believe that Roman Catholics, Protestants, and any others of us who attempt to add to the grace of God fail because we are not living according to the Gospel (which then becomes living according to a different Gospel which has no hope, for the believer or unbeliever). And let all who believe and teach such be (in the vocative sense!) anathema.
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In 1 John 4 it states
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Now I am quite sure every one here is acquainted with these verses but examine it carefully. Literally we can easily overlook and say all those that confessed Jesus coming in the flesh would certainly passed this test. For example, catholics, oneness pentecostals and heck even Jehovah Witnesses! However, what does Jesus coming in the flesh mean other than literally confessing him coming in the flesh? Well,Jesus we know is the Word of God and if we acknowledge and understand this then when we read anyone who doesn’t confess him coming in the flesh is anti-christ its referring to obscuring his Deity as the Word of God. In other words, those who truly confess him coming in the flesh will glorify him for who he is THE WORD OF GOD. Those who only confess in the literal sense like catholics, jehovah witnesses etc. are obscuring his Deity by their doctrines that do not coincide with the Word of God, hence, a different Gospel and different Jesus who is not the Word of God but an impostor.
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The phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24.
2 Cor. 10:15 – Faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.
2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.
As for Mary … Even Martin Luther had a special devotion to Mary. Luke 1:28 – “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.
As far as the comment made before about praying to the dead, Mary and the other Saints in Heaven are more alive than you and I. If you ask your friends on earth to pray for you, why not your friends in Heaven? Let us unite the whole Communion of Saints in prayer to fight the wickedness and snares of the devil.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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Mr. Taylor, I most certainly agree that having the gift of prophecy is far different from knowing the entire sum of thoughts of all the hearts. When did I ever say that Mary knows the entire sum of thoughts of all the hearts? I don’t think that’s true at all, nor have I ever read or heard anything from the Catholic Church that states such a thing. Mary’s ability to know our prayers is on the level of any prophet’s ability to know something in the heart of another person – it is NOT omniscience. I don’t know how to say it any plainer. Catholics do NOT believe that Mary is omniscient or equal to God in any way.
If you would care to tell me why you prefer to persist in believing something about us that isn’t true instead of believing what is true, I would love to understand. I find it perplexing.
You asked me if I believed that by praying to Baal (1 Kings 18:26) the prophets of Ball worshiping Baal. Well, they WERE actually worshiping Baal, and so yes, they were worshiping Baal whether they did that through prayer or some other means (say, sacrifice, dancing, whatever).
But the act of prayer itself is not necessarily equivalent to worship. Christians say prayers to Jesus all the time that are NOT worship. Prayers of repentance or supplication or intercession (“I need…”) are not worship (“I adore You, God”). So it’s perfectly possible to pray to Mary without worshiping her. We save our worship for the Lord God Almighty and Him alone. We don’t worship…
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“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16
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J David: “But why would we need a dead person to intercede for us”
@ J David, the departed saints are NOT DEAD! If anything, they are more alive than us. “I am not the God of the dead, but the God of the living”.
Do we get kicked out of the Church when we fall asleep in the Lord? Of course not. The saints are alive and part of the Church. Asking for them to pray for us is what Christians have done for 2,000 years.
Written on the walls of 1st century catacombs in Rome are: “Peter and Paul, pray for us!”
http://www.oocities.org/athens/Atrium/8410/catacombs.html
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CMP, I must exegete the Scripture first, then filter church history through that lens. If a certain age of the church was darkened via a corruption of the gospel, and this can be proven from Scripture, so be it (see reformers, et. al.)
But let us go to the primary argument first, that of what the Scripture itself teaches. In the writings of Paul, anathema clearly means to be eternally condemned to hell. As you know context is the first rule of interpretation, and Acts is a different usage by a different author (see the etymology of anthema and it’s relation to Heb. herem in BDAG or TDNT.) While Gal. 1:8 might be taken as somewhat rhetorical since because he uses himself and angels as an example, Paul’s repetition in v. 9 and his use of “if any man” makes it clear he is not being rhetorical there. Also, check out the verb, it’s a present, active, IMPERATIVE, ἀνάθεμα ἔστω, he is TO BE accursed.
Paul is not just concerned that they have “fallen from grace”, but that these false teachers will actually cause the condemnation of others, if others believe and follow a works salvation teaching. Also in ch. 2 some said you must do a work (in addition to faith) to be saved. Paul calls them “false brethren”! If Paul had done what they said, this would have effected the “truth of the Gospel.” (v.5).
Again, do you have any evangelical scholar or commentary to support your view of “anathema” in Gal. 1?
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As my church history prof at seminary would probably say: 381
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[...] Credo House Ministries: Are Roman Catholics Saved? [...]
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Anathema is more properly “a handing over to the disciplinary wrath of God”. To say “hell” is a bit much, but I understand why translators put it there.
I think you just ignored everything I said without dealing with it either historically or Scripturally.
It is a very difficult issue, but I encourage you to think contextually, canonically, AND historically.
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Mr. Episito, your comments flummoxed me. For you to say that Catholics don’t understand what Jesus has done and is doing is such a strange, strange thing. Every single day, every hour of every single day, somewhere in the world, Catholics gather to celebrate the fact that Jesus died for our sins and rose again to give us eternal life and equips us with the saving grace to be God’s children. We Catholics agree that His is the only righteousness necessary for salvation. How can you say we deny it? You say it’s in the Catechism that we deny it, but that’s not true at all. Please refer to this section: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm
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A book that has some good articles on the Evangelical and Catholic conversation is Your Word is Truth: A Project of Evangelicals and Catholics Together; ed. Colson & Neuhaus (Eerdmans, 2002).
Two very good essays are by Timothy George and Avery Dulles on the two perspectives regarding Scripture and Tradition.
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CMP is warmed-up good now, with “Anathema”! Indeed we must take the “Figures of Speech” in the Bible seriously! I would agree with Michael somewhat here! And literally “Anathema” was an offering (see the LXX or Sept.), and later as in the NT, “a thing” devoted to destruction or given up to the curse. But in Galatians, it is to the “Gospel” itself, that St. Paul states in the strongest language that the Gospel he preached was the one and only way of salvation, and any other way was to devoid the Death of Christ! But, even the grace of God reaches beyond the curse, but we can only leave this to God, Himself! For there is a “biblical” Gospel and Revelation of God alone! And here is the depth of Grace & Glory! But always in the “face” of Christ, (2 Cor. 4:6). Here is the Pauline and Apostolic Gospel!
However, none of us understands or perfects this Gospel of Grace & Glory. But hopefully by faith partake of such! It is surely beyond all of us!
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And Amen to MCP’s #14! Listen up my theolog friends! Again God’s grace & glory reaches well past our best of thought & thinking!
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*CMP’s
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Btw, for my Roman Catholic Brethren, we simply must read and stand upon the biblical revelation-text (theology) of 1 Tim. 2: 5.. “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” And following Calvin, only here is the relationship between the Person and Work of Christ, and here alone also is Christ as Prophet-Priest-King! He shares this “office/s” with no one!
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Fr. Robert, I and every other Catholic I know heartily agrees with 1 Tim. 2: 5. Please see my comments in #29 on page one of this discussion to understand how we delineate between a human intercessor and Christ as mediator.
Another way to put it would be to picture a courtroom, where God is the judge and you are the accused. An intercessor would be a witness called on your behalf. Christ would be who speaks to the judge to plead your case, ultimately offering to serve your just sentence Himself. Just as a witness in a court case doesn’t take over the role of the lawyer, neither does a human intercessor usurp the role of Christ as our one-and-only Mediator.
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I will be addressing this article on the Dividing Line today (3/29) starting at 6:30pm EDT.
James White
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Hello, Mr. Patton. I just learned that James White is planning on commenting on your article today on his Dividing Line broadcast, in case you didn’t know by now.
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=5039
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In 1 John 4 it states
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Now I am quite sure every one here is acquainted with these verses but examine it carefully. Literally we can easily overlook and say all those that confessed Jesus coming in the flesh would certainly passed this test. For example, catholics, oneness pentecostals and heck even Jehovah Witnesses! However, what does Jesus coming in the flesh mean other than literally confessing him coming in the flesh? Well,Jesus we know is the Word of God and if we acknowledge and understand this then when we read anyone who doesn’t confess him coming in the flesh is anti-christ its referring to obscuring his Deity as the Word of God. In other words, those who truly confess him coming in the flesh will glorify him for who he is THE WORD OF GOD. Those who only confess in the literal sense like catholics, jehovah witnesses etc. are obscuring his Deity by their doctrines that do not coincide with the Word of God, hence, a different Gospel and different Jesus who is not the Word of God but an impostor.
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Sparki: The grave problem, as I see it anyway, is that the Offices and “Secessions” that Christ does on the Throne of God above – in the glory, HE does as the ONE & ONLY Mediator between God & Men. There is only One Who is both God & Man, in reality ‘One Incarnate Nature of God the Logos’ (Cyril of Alexandria). Christ thus has ONE united nature out of two: divinity and humanity. And as the Body of Christ we can share in something of His “humanity” (The Mystical Body of Christ), but certainly not His divinity. Indeed “Christ Jesus” alone is the Mediator!
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Fr. Robert, were you under the impression that Catholics think that they are somehow part of Jesus’ divinity? We don’t. We agree that Jesus is the ONE & ONLY Mediator between God & Men. We agree that there is only ONE Who is both God & Man. Why do you think we think otherwise?
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Michael writes: “So the question becomes “How can someone believe and confess that their works contribute to their salvation and be saved?” (as Roman Catholics do).”
The question is confused, since Catholic reject exclusive forensic justification to begin with, and thus “works” cannot in principle play the same role in Catholic soteriology as they would in a Protestant understanding. Click my name to read my Catholic Thing article on the matter.
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Sparki: My point was the loss, or no real connection with CHRIST’s Medatorship, thus human arguments just don’t matter for our prayers, at best we can only pray in Jesus Name! Note, I was raised Irish Roman Catholic in Dublin Ireland, in the 50′s and early 60′s. And I was also an English Benedictine in my 20′s for a few years. I am over 60 now. So I am at least somewhat aware of Roman Catholicism. And I don’t see it as all negative, either. I still have extended family who are Roman Catholic, and I think we get on quite nicely still!
Indeed, these are “theological” and “biblical” disagreements, but not necessarily fully salvific (though they can be certainlly). I mean, none of us has this all figured-out! Though St. Paul saw much more than we do! (Note, 1 Cor. 13: 11-13)
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“Christians are those who truly believe in who Christ is and do their best to follow him.”
That seems like a rather…poorly qualified statement given the aim of the article.
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Fr. Robert, sorry for persisting, but I really don’t see this “loss” or “no real connection” with Christ as Mediator. It’s a constant theme throughout the Liturgy of the Eucharist in every Mass and in every other Sacrament as well. I can’t see how you have concluded that Catholics miss it when it’s so evident that we believe in it!
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“BTW: I just had a professor from John MacArthurs seminary write me and say he agreed with this post. So, I suppose, it can’t be TOO far out in Protestant left field. ”
CMP: Who was it? I would like to know.
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CMP: If a new believer who never attended church before were to ask you what church he should attend, would you ever recommend a RCC?
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I have lurked on this site for a long time and never commented but I want to make an observation: Some years back I read an article in either Time or Newsweek about a movement within the Catholic Church to make Mary “Co-Redemptrix” with Jesus…..just sayin’
I have Catholic relatives and appreciate CMP’s view on this issue.
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@Sparki: Simply, all of the Offices of Christ, are tied together to HIS Person and Work! Note for us Reformed Christians, His “Sessions” above on the Throne of God, are HIS Mediatorship! And we don’t enter a wit into HIS saving grace and soteriology – salvation! It is here I part company with both Roman Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox! As I have pressed my EO friends, WE really cannot, since the doctrine of Imputation still is dependent upon our forensic Justfication of God In Christ!
So in the end product, CHRIST’s Mediatorial Work is His alone!
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No, I would not suggest a Roman Catholic church unless there were only liberal churches to choose from (or overtly legalistic fundamentalist church—then it is a toss-up).
I cannot tell who it was. I am not saying he is agreeing in secret, but I would not want to say what he can say himself.
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I respect that you want him to speak for himself, but if you can’t say who it is, then you shouldn’t mention that he was a”professor from John MacArthurs seminary.” You are making a point that can’t be confirmed or refuted, yet you use it to show you are within the mainstream.
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CMP: Thanks for your response. In regard to church attendance: so if there were only “liberal churches to choose from” then you would recommend a Roman Catholic Church? There could be a time where you would recommend to the catholic church to someone?
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Just a note, but I am thankful – in the providence of God – that I was raised Roman Catholic! The doctrine of the Virgin Birth, the doctrine of Christ as God & Man, the Vicarious suffering and Death of Christ, and the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ! Yes, here is what Michael was saying that Rome has right! Note we had a Reformation, and not a reformulation! Just a point.
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And of yes, how could I forget the great doctrine of the Trinity of God! Though now I am closer to the EO here, no “filioque”!
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*oh
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Sparki: This is for you mate!
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 6:23
It may however be hence inferred with certainty, that our salvation is altogether through the grace and mere beneficence of God. He might indeed have used other words — that the wages of righteousness is eternal life; and then the two clauses would correspond: but he knew that it is through God’s gift we obtain it, and not through our own merits; and that it is not one or a single gift; for being clothed with the righteousness of the Son, we are reconciled to God, and we are by the power of the Spirit renewed unto holiness. And he adds, in Christ Jesus, and for this reason, that he might call us away from every conceit respecting our own worthiness.” (Calvin, from his Romans)
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Using 1 John 4:2 as support for the deity of Christ is a pretty huge stretch. But using the doctrine of the deity of Christ as a measuring stick for determining salvation may be an even bigger stretch. Criticizing Catholics over a belief that works matter is also questionable. I never cease to wonder at how willing we evangelicals are to strain out gnats and swallow camels. It is regarded as of utmost importance to accept that Jesus is God, yet often not emphasized what he commanded.
In Matthew 25:34-45 Jesus talks about separating the sheep from the goats. Presumably he is talking about salvation. But he only mentions works and never mentions his deity. In Mark 10:18-25, Jesus is specifically asked what is required for salvation. Again, he doesn’t talk about his deity. He talks about works, keeping the law. He talks about following him. In Revelation 20, we see the final judgment. All those are judged according to works, not on the basis of their view of Jesus’ divinity. James has plenty to say about works and salvation. What does he say about the divinity of Christ?
There was a time when I would have dismissed any who didn’t profess the deity of Christ. Now I am not so sure. I accept the doctrine as orthodoxy, but I am not willing to so easily dismiss those who don’t. There are many, many, many people out there who accept the divinity of Christ but who don’t actually follow him. How much will their view of Christ’s divinity matter in the end?
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CMP,
I miss a few days of your blog and look what happens!
Generally, I appreciated your post. Martin Luther was helped to realize justification by faith alone by another, older monk who was still in the RCC. There are many Catholics who are saved and exhibit the signs of salvation. We should receive all those whom God receives (Romans 14). The fact that we receive genuine believers who are Catholics does not mean that we receive and approve of the RCC, its teachings, and its practices just as receiving genuine Protestant believers does not mean we receive all of Protestantism. Other titles could be substituted for “Prostestant” like evangelical, charismatic, Pentecostal, Arminian, Calvinist, etc.
Thanks again. I apologize for coming in so late.
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I remember going to Campus Crusade for Christ when I went to a Catholic church. I might as well have had leprosy. When people found out I attended a Catholic church, the stares, and talk stuned me. But as I leanred later no one was exempt because many fundagelcials didn’t consider Lutherans to be Christian, main line Protestant to be Christian, Assembly of God, differing Baptist denominations, etc…
I guess the end state of fundementalism is a million plus denominations each one convinced they have a corner on truth while each other one lives in heresy.
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Quote:
Hello Sparki. To boil it down, no, Romanists do not have the gospel. Your religion has the right Jesus doing part of the work which He really accomplished. Of course my comment cannot address all of the errors of RC – and indeed there are probably more points of contact within your religion than what I am familiar with; however, RC lost the true gospel long ago.
E.g. baptismal regeneration, mortal and venial sins, priests as alter christus, repeating the bloodless sacrifice of the mass, and more etc. None of these things enhance or reveal the gospel, they obscure and hide it, thus leading billions to hell. It would be unloving of me to say anything else. Too bad this is a comment box and not a coffee shop discussion. Much to say. I’ll read the link – thanks.
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Busy making Calvin Capicchinos, Luther Lattes, and teaching. No way to keep up on things here. Getting dozens and dozens of emails about this. I wish I had more time. But, really quick:
*Read the Rules*…go out of your way to be kind and gracious to each other. As far as I can tell, this has been happening, so I thank you very much.
I will just delete posts, no matter what tradition you are from, if I don’t sense you are going out of your way to be kind.
Carry on…
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BTW: Lots of posts got auto-filtered and are/were in spam. I think I got most of them out, but some did not fit in with the rules of engagement and remain forever in Purgatory.
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Michael writes: “So the question becomes `How can someone believe and confess that their works contribute to their salvation and be saved?’ (as Roman Catholics do). My answer is this: perfect doctrine does not save anyone.”
I agree with your last sentence. Thus, even if we Catholics are wrong about forensic justification it does not mean that we are not forensically justified.
Having said that, though, I must say the question you raise presupposes something about Catholic soteriology that is not the case. It may seem to be the case if one accepts exclusive forensic justification. But Catholicism rejects that notion. Thus, “works” do not play the role in Catholicism as they would in a system that accepts the Protestant understanding.
If you click my name, it will take to an article I published on this matter in The Catholic Thing, “Was Aquinas a Proto-Protestant?”
Thank you for your thoughtful work, Michael.
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Michael writes: “BTW: Lots of posts got auto-filtered and are/were in spam. I think I got most of them out, but some did not fit in with the rules of engagement and remain forever in Purgatory.”
May I have an indulgence?
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I must admit I find it terribly frustrating to say the same things over and over and over again and to have the same people on this forum refuse to accept what is true. Catholics believe that Jesus is the ONLY Mediator and that His Grace is sufficient. The fact that He invites us to participate in furthering His Kingdom is a separate issue entirely from who is the Savior and who is not. No Catholic believes that he/she could save him/herself or save any other person (unlike some evangelicals I know who believe it’s there duty to “save” people). If Fr. Robert wishes to believe what is not true about us, what can any of us say? Likewise, Mr. Taylor chooses to persist in the false belief that Catholics think that Mary is omniscient. I can’t think of any other way to tell him the truth other than the plain and exact words I’ve used already, but it’s like I’ve said nothing. And those are just two examples. I don’t understand why it’s so important for so many of you to hold on to falsehoods about Catholicism. Would you not be happy to know that the Catholic Church teaches that only Jesus saves and no Catholic believes that we can earn or deserve salvation? Would it not make your hearts glad to know that God’s family of Christians on earth is bigger than you thought it was?
Apparently not.
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Indeed the Deity and Divinity of Christ is certainly salvific, and without this there is certainly no salvation! (John 8: 24)…literally, it is “For if you do not believe that ‘I am’ – HE”. Here of course the Jewish leaders purposely reject the great nature of Jesus own statement of equality with God! For this was one of the reasons He was crucified, as “King of the Jews”! And btw, it here that the Incarnation is so central also. As Luther maintained, the divinity of Christ is ‘hidden’ (abscondita) in His humanity! Here is the theologian of the Cross, the one who speaks of God crucified and hidden. Here again is Luther’s ‘hidden God’.
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?” …”But who do you say I am?” …. “And Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
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Granted my son. It should have been released.
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Sparki, I would love it if all people who say “Jesus” were saved and in the family of God… but the Scripture is just too plain in condemning in no uncertain terms anyone who trusts in themselves for salvation – and that is meant to say anyone who even says God is saving me but somehow He is basing it on my works. Semantics won’t change the fact that in RC people are taught to work the works of justification. Sorry – that is legalism, error, heresy, and a damnable lie. Again, I’m not angry or in any way a Catholic basher. I say these things out of fidelity to Christ and love for you. Forgive me if you believe me in ignorance.
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Soooooo, Mr. Esposito, you haven’t followed my link? You haven’t read what the Church teaches on justification? Because if you had read it, you would see that you are misrepresenting Catholic teaching in your statement. I forgive you, of course. I just don’t understand.
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Frank, I don’t know why, but your post automatically go to spam. There is no reason for this from a settings standpoint. All I can figure is that God does not like your comments as much as mine. Just saying…
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Mike: It has to do with the fact that my URL was too long. But both my comments are up, and I’m happy!
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One interesting irony is how hard it is to interpret Catholic dogma. So trusting when someone says that another is not interpreting such and such Catholic teaching right is (and always has been) very interesting to me. Who says that it is not being interpreted right? I suppose that in all cases we have to personally do the best we can to research, argue, and justify out fallible interpretations, whether from the Church (Roman Catholic) or from the Scriptures (Protestant).
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I have the very good fortune of having background in both catholic and protestant branches of Christianity. From infancy I was brought up as a Roman Catholic, received my education, became a senior altar boy, won an award for religious life, and seriously contemplated the priesthood. I fell away from the faith in my late teens, but returned to God through the ministry of a pentecostal church. Although God has met me many times since my reconversion, some of the most significant spiritual moments were within the catholic framework. In fact, some of the most truly spiritual individuals I have met are catholic. Now, when asked if I am catholic or protestant; my answer is ‘neither’.
Thank you ALL for your posts.
Let me leave you with this thought; perhaps neither of us really understands the mind of Christ in these matters. The penitent thief on the cross did not address Jesus as anything other that “this man” yet was promised paradise. Just sayin…
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First of all great article. Second great defense of Roman Catholism to Sparki.
Third a few verses,to refelct on the varied comments, these aren’t quotes, I am RC, I read the Bible, not memorize it: judge not lest ye be judged… comes to mind first…
secondly: brother why are you concerned with sliver in your brother’s eye, when there is a plank in your own, first remove the plank in your own eye and then you’ll be able to see correctly to help remove the sliver from your neighbor
third: Jesus rebuking the Pharisees for forgetting mercy and only holding the law…
Old Testament: regards to Mary; fifth commandment: Honor your father and MOTHER … so do you really believe that Mary doesn’t have Jesus’s ear for intercetions? I’m thinking of this wedding at Canaan? Mary interceding on behalf of the groom, about the wine? Now I don’t have a degree in this but that is pressed into my heart. As for dead, isn’t it written that I AM the God of Abraham? How can that be true if Abraham is dead?
I believe that God judges our hearts, what is in the depths of us, so I question whether we should really get on line and truly judge another’s hearts for them? I don’t think so.
I think this is a great topic, and I have learned so much about my own faith, and God, and always enjoy reading the posts here. I will end with this: Come to me those are weary and I shall give you rest ( Jesus speaking)… faith like this child here… Blessings.
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Michael: There is a Catechism, and it is fairly easy to follow. However, if one reads it with certain preconceptions or expectations of what Catholics believe–let’s say, if one has been fed a steady diet of Lorraine Boettner, R. C. Sproul, John Gerstner, and others for virtually all of one’s adult life–then one will get much of it wrong. And when one is corrected for getting it wrong, one will seem frustrated that Catholic theology is so hard to interpret.
(I am not saying, by the way, that is what you are doing. I am saying that that has been my own experience, having been one of those intellectually formed by anti-Catholic tomes. My piece in tomorrow’s Catholic Thing—http://catholicthing.org–addresses this question, by the way)
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Sparki, I did read it through – but furthermore am fairly well-read in comparative religions. Even furthermore, I care about representing other people’s faiths with dignity and accuracy. From sec 2010:
I’m sorry, but no matter how many words we all speak and write to fill the universe with our debates, that there above says we can merit the grace needed for eternal life. What does it matter if it says that God was the initiator of the salvation if in the end we can and indeed must merit it – even a part of it. Love you guys, for real, I wish I were wrong, but that Bible is just too clear:
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This is the perspective of a burned out fundagelcial. Catholics may have their quirks…but frankly evangelicals have their issues as well. Can the
just admit it ?
In the 10 years I was a fundy I saw and cringed at more evangelicals getting sexually excited at a tornado, natural disaster, earthquake, war, etc..
Because it means a preaching opportunity to declare:
A. This tornado, earthquake etc.. is God’s punishment for sin.
Or…
B. This war/terrorist attack means we’re in the End Times and the rapture is going to happen any moment!!
I was horrified to be an evangelical Christian because so many Christians almost took this perverse pleasure in the pain and suffering
of others. Christians couldn’t empathize…they had to use a tornado hitting a locations in Minneapolis or Indiana. As I said I just cringe.
So when people rage or dismiss Catholics because of certain doctrine, I just think of the quirks that fundagelcials have.
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Oops I typed to fast.. edit above “they use a tornado hitting locations in Minneapolsi or Indiana to gloat and salivate over God’s punishment. Kind of like Jonah at Ninevah…
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Eagle: very true, and very unrepresentative of Christ. Let me say it this way: many a Roman Catholic may live well above his theology, but no evangelical will ever reach the bar of theirs (if they indeed hold to biblical gospel).
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Mr. Esposito, Catholics do not equate the words “salvation” and “sanctification” as I have said in a previous post. If you’re interested, please consider OUR definition of the word “sanctification” as you read OUR Catechism, because OUR definition is more likely the one that applies.
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Friends, here are the bits that Mr. Esposito left out from the link I sent him to. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.
Do you see how it says that our justification comes from Christ?
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
Do you see how it says that we get it from God and that it’s a free and undeserved gift?
2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
Do you see how it says that we have no merit but receive everything from God?
Please try. Jesus prayed that we would all be ONE (John 17), not thousands of factions condemning one another.
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Catholics are not saved nor Baptists or any other religious members, as we are not saved by blood ancestry, the proclaimation of others,nor by declaring ourselves so, but, are saved by responding positively to the soul voice of God.
“Take your cross and follow Me.”
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Sparki,
Like the Pharisee in the Temple, the RCC teaching gives God credit for producing merit in its people, by which they alledgedly may qualify for a right standing with Him.
“God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.”
So what if Rome teaches that men have “no strict right to any merit”? The self-righteous Pharisee would agree! He recognized that the merit he was counting on to justify him was something worked in him by the grace of God.
Yet, he stood comdemned.
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To me, asking if those from historical churches (RCs, EOs) are saved is akin to asking if Christians from before the Great Schism was saved. If we deny that they are saved, we are denying historical continuity of the Body of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit to build and preserve the Church. If they are nit saved, then I’d seriously doubt that the Protestants are saved.
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surely the simple answer as to who is/isn’t a Christian is:
are you born again.
if the answer is yes, then you is.
if the answer is no then you ain’t.
‘doing your best to follow Jesus’ has precious little to do with it – remember Judas?
there are born again believers in every denomination just as there are those who haven’t been in every denomination.
last I checked Jesus was not describing an optional extra but a ‘must’
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+
salvation is a process (ongoing) and not a one-time event
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Sparki,
To know our prayers is to know our hearts….what we are thinking and expressing as well as our motivation(s) behind them. The heart is the seat of emotions and thinking. To be able to know that (by all people in all times) necessitates omniscience
You can not differentiate the two.
Lord Jesus I am sorry for my sins. Please forgive me…….That isn’t worshiping the Lord Jesus? Are you serious?
Every true prayer is a form of worship.
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@Sparki: I am not trying to be negative at all, but there really is a difference here as to the reformational and reformed belief, espeically the latter. As I have noted with Calvin, btw, even Chrysostum teaches the same: “Also Christ was to have three dignities: King, Prophet, Priest..” The great difference between us, is of course that no one else can really stand in or with that place of Mediator, not the Theotokos, nor the Saints, etc. This is really the issue! And here the Cross of Christ becomes not only a priestly sacrifice but a regal victory over Satan, sin and death. It is alone from this victory that Christ is the One and only Mediator. And simply there is no place for Christ sharing this once expiation, even after as He Himself is the “expiation” (propitiatory sacrifice) sitting on the Throne! (1 John 2: 1-2 / Heb. 1:3) And this also, breaks down the whole effort of a sacerdotal priesthood beyond or beside Christ! It is here that we can note, that the Anglican Communion does not have “sacerdotal” priests, but only presbyter’s.
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Rather disappointing. I have no doubt that many Catholics are saved (and many Protestants lost).The ability or possibility of Catholics being saved, however, is something distinct from if the official RCC doctrine is true. The comments here alone are sufficient to demonstrate the huge gulf in the way that Protestants and Catholics define terms related to the identity and work of Christ. The RCC doctrine is not salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone which is what the Bible teaches.
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Though much could be said of the great theological chasms between Roman Catholicism and biblical Christianity, one which needs to be emphasized in my estimation is the Catholic church’s shameful history of keeping the Bible out of the hands of ordinary people. The RC’s entire history is one of doing its dead-level best to keep the Word of God AWAY from people. This speaks volumes. The RC church has persecuted and executed untold millions for the crime of wanting to read the Bible for themselves. In parts of the world this continues to this day. I was in Ecuador last summer and went into a heavily Catholic town and was told by the missionary I was with that if I was to get out and open-air preach or even witness to someone I would likely be stoned. Keeping the Bible away from people is the work of Satan. This is not to say that there are not nice, sincere, giving Catholics – there certainly are. however, Catholic doctrine does not lead one to a saving knowledge of Christ and the history of the church is not a good one to say the least.
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@Sparki: Btw, you might want to quote some of the Catholic theologians in your arguments, you have not done so? And I, as I hopefully you know, consider many Roman Catholic’s as “Brethren”! Again, in the end.. grace is much bigger than we can all conceive! And yes, I am a Calvinist, but more of a classic Anglican one.
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I have given the only real “Catholic” verses I know of for a defense of praying for the dead, with 2 Tim. 1:16-18. Though of course these verses must be exegeted! And no one has sought to do so, so far? I stated I would not make an effort either way, though I don’t see it as clearly giving this defense of praying for the dead. (Though I have in my long past!) This is usually the problem with the RCC, they simply don’t exegete the scriptures, save making their own dogmatic efforts, on subjects and texts they choose.
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One thing the Catholic Church taught me was that only God was Omniscient – they then turned around and taught us to pray to Mary: “Hail! Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To you do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, O most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy towards us; and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus.”
This violates what Jesus said – He is our “Life” – and our hope is to be in Him. When the disciples asked how they should pray, Jesus told them “Our Father” – not “Hail Mary” – there is one Mediator between God and Man – there is no “Mediatrix of all graces” – Mary said “Do what He tells you”; Jesus says “Come to Me” – and Catholics keep going back to Mary and the saints. As an ex-Catholic I find it rather maddening they can’t see how wrong this is. They nullify the Commandments of God by their tradition.
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The Lord Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead!
“Marc, Catholics don’t “pray to Mary.” We ask her to pray for us. That’s a really, really important distinction that most Protestants get wrong over and over again.” The Christian objection is not actually based on ignorance – God alone knows the hearts of men, and when I ask someone to pray for me I am NOT asking for prayer like the RC do — Christ is our Righteousness and Advocate. You actually insult and dishonor the mother of my Lord by rejecting what she actually believed about her all-powerful Son, Jesus Christ, the Lord of Glory, Who blessed her, so that all generations will call her blessed. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritiual blessing in Christ! And the Lord ‘whoever does the will of God is my brother, sister and mother’!
Whether through, to, with, (the distinction) you are dishonoring the mother of my Lord and dishonoring the Lord of Glory, Who is our Rightousness, Mediator.
The RC direct us to the online Catechism which says “2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.” Turn from…
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Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) says,
“This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly…until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by
her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.”
This is idolatry!
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The Catholic church teaches that Mary was conceived w/o sin – another serious error. She did not get to become the mother of the Messiah because she was so holy (although I am sure she was a Godly woman); she was able to become the mother of the Messiah because of her family history – all one has to do is read the prophecies which Luke and Matthew back up on both Mary’s and Joseph’s family trees.
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Frank, the Catecism does help but it still fails to overcome some things from what I understand:
1. While approved it does not have infallibility. It just represents infallibility. Therefore it is a fallible summary and interpretation of Catholic dogma and practice. At least that is how I understand it.
2. More importantly, while it has perspicuity to some degree (maybe even a large degree), it still has to be interpreted as the individual reads and attempts to understand it. The final product is always going to be ones fallible interpretation.
Now, obviously I don’t have a problem with this as I don’t think infallibility is necessary for true understanding or relative unity. But when it comes to so many Protestant/Catholic issues so many will appeal to the “you don’t *really* understand it (at least until one accepts it!). Not calling into question your grasp of Catholic theology necessarily…
Zachary is out of swim lessons. Got to go.
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Justin Peters is absolutely correct about the Catholic church keeping the Bible out of the hands of the people – they taught us that we were not to read it – and the “family Bible” we had stayed on a shelf in a closet in my parent’s bedroom.
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Leslie @ page 2, #36:
Here is a good example of Catholic teaching being misunderstood. The possibility of “Co-Redemtrix” becoming dogma has pretty much been shot down, for the very reason that the term itself is too misleading. Here is a case in point….someone hears a blip about it in the news and thinks they know the theological concept behind it. It is indeed easy to be misled by it, and then to misunderstand Catholic doctrine.
“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
― Fulton J. Sheen
People really should look into Catholicism through a Catholic source, instead of just reading what others say about it.
Good job, Sparki.
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Let me clarify that I am an Anglican. I wanted to point out one misrepresentation to start with. That is, Mormons do NOT deny that Jesus is the God-man who died for our sins and rose again. They affirm all those points explicitly. And I see no reason to deny that many devoted followers of Christ can be found within the ranks of the LDS church.
Of course Roman Catholics are being saved! (I think it is better to put it that way and to say “is saved”.) Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, who believes in Christ, and “abides” in his body (through divinely appointed channels of grace) is being saved. The notion that God would exclude a person from heaven because they formally deny that faith is the “sole” instrument of their justification is absurd, and turns God into some sort of petty cosmic theology professor, who is more concerned with a person’s lexicon than the state of their heart. Anyone who can read the rich devotional writings of Pope Benedict XVI and conclude that this is not a true follower of Christ is spiritually tone deaf.
Ultimately none of us knows the inner secrets of a person’s soul and walk with Christ. We can only judge them by their fruit (and yes, heresy and false teachings can enter into that judgment). But any definition of “Christian” which would exclude the vast majority of Christians prior to the formalization of the Reformation slogans and definitions of justification is obviously short-sighted!
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I would be the first to say, that Mary the Mother of our Lord, is the Theotokos – the God-bearer, following the Council of Ephesus. And as the top tier-Reformers (Luther, Calvin, etc.) believed she was ever-virgin, for the solemnity of the Incarnation. (As too the Wesley brothers)And she was herself an elect-vessel of grace, and was or became sinless at the Annunciation, for of course the Incarnation, and birth of Christ.
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Please, turn from you sins and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. God commands all men everywhere to repent because He has apppointed a Day in which He will judge the righteousness by the Man Jesus Christ (God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ), whereof He has given assurance unto all men by raising Him from the dead. I pray unto my all powerful Lord, the Son of the Father, eternal Creator, that He would open your eyes to see that we are justified by His blood, made righteous by His obedience, justified apart from the works of the law, justified by faith and peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, our sins blotted out! As a former follower of the organization headed by Mr. Ratzinger, who used to pray to “Mary” and “Michael the Archangel,” I praise the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that He opened my eyes to see the glorious Savior, who bore our sins in His body on the tree, the just for the unjust, to bring us toGod! He said ‘He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already.’
I understand that many RC don’t believe even the truth the RC officially affirms and I understand that some Christians are not familiar with RC teachings that affirm true things (even the Watchtower affirms some truth). But Jesus said ‘unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins’ and the Spirit says :not by works of righteousness. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Faith without…
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By asking her you are praying to her. Millions of Catholics can ask/pray to her at the same time and Catholics believe she has the ability to hear and act accordingly that is far far different than simply asking someone to pray for me. Now if I met my friend and asked him to pray for me and at the same time 100 million other people asked him as well and he was able to understand what was said (and the motivation behind what was said) by all these people that would demand omniscience.
The fact that RC’s deny in word what they really believe in practice is really deception in its highest order.
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Fr. Robert, re: your question on other Biblical examples of prayers for the dead.
2 Maccabees Chapter 12: “And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers’ graves. Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain. All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain.”
“And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection: For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.”
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@Pete: Of course I was talking about NT texts and scripture. Of course most Protestants, even Anglicans don’t see the Apocrypha as Canon. Another debate!
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(my PART 2 response, when the inevitable attacks upon the book of 2 Maccabees start flying) (not from you, Fr. Robert, from others)
2 Timothy 3:14-16 “But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”
Paul was talking about the OLD TESTAMENT in this passage.
Timothy was from Galatia, so he was brought up speaking Greek. Paul used the GREEK SEPTUAGINT OLD TESTAMENT to refer to “the Sciptures” multiple times in the following epistles: Romans; 1 & 2 Corinthians; Galatians; 2 Timothy; and Hebrews (!).
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Irene, if they don’t believe that then the church should renounce the teaching because they still teach this dogma or not: “Mary’s Great Promise at Fatima -
The Five First Saturdays are intended to honor and to make reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for all the blasphemes and ingratitude of men.
This devotion and the wonderful promises connected with it were revealed by the Blessed Virgin at Fatima, a small village in Portugal. Our lady appeared to three children there in 1917, and one of the little girls, Lucy, tells us that Our Lady said:
I promise to help at the hour of death, with the graces needed for salvation, whoever on the First Saturday of five consecutive months shall:
1. Confess and Receive Communion.
2. Recite five decades of the Rosary (Joyful, Luminous, Sorrowful, or Glorious Mysteries)
3. Keep me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen Mysteries of the Rosary, with the intention of making reparation to me.”
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To Mr. Ratzinger’s supporters: faith without works is dead. Whoever keeps the whole law and yet offends in one point is guilty of all. Don’t you know the unrightous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Neither adulterers nor fornicators nor drunkards nor homosexuals nor idolaters nor thieves will inherit the kingdom of God. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Those in the flesh cannot please God. You who preach don’t commit adultery, do you commit adultery? Whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, whoever is angry with his brother without a just cause is in danger of hell fire. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off it is better for you to enter life maimed, then have to two hands to go into hell, the lake of fire. “He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the in the presence of the Lamb.” (Rev 10:14b) I write because I pray for you before the throne of grace to turn from your sins and trust in the Lord Jesus ‘ -I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by Me. Come to Me all you are heavey laden and I will give you rest. Repent, trust Jesus Christ right now to save you from your Sin, confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead! all prophets bear witness to…
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Amen about the Septuagint (LXX), Pete! Btw, I have my copy of the Orthodox Bible. But also Paul liked to quote the Hebrew text too, and just sort of free-wheel with it also. Yes, St. Paul is our “Theological” Man!
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I used to believe Catholics were saved, and I do believe that some/many may be due to missing the teaching of their church and not being devout enough in their teaching to miss the Jesus Christ. That said, the Jesus Christ they believe came ‘in the flesh’ didn’t come from an imperfect and human Mary, unless I misunderstand the teaching of the church. This would make Jesus Christ not really God in the flesh in the same way as we understand when we accept Mary’s humanness. This to me, is crucial, to the reality of the true Jesus Christ who was the perfect sacrifice for sins and able to be the true Saviour. The Catholics miss this Christ by purifying Mary to the point of having a Jesus Christ who was sinless due to not really being in human flesh in the way all are. It just doesn’t work.
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Mr. Mazzotta, you have thoroughly misrepresented Catholic teaching here. I understand that you think Catholics are pharisees so I have absolute zero expectation that you will listen to me. Nonetheless, I am called to speak the truth, and so I will say this: Catholics do not believe that we can be saved by tithing or going to Mass or fasting or anything of the kind. We believe that we are only saved by Jesus. I can’t understand why you and everybody else here isn’t overjoyed to learn this. I should think you would be ecstatic to know that Catholics trust Jesus and Him alone for our salvation, same as you.
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Hi Justin Peters. Are you the one I was acquainted with in Nashville? Mary Jo Cleaver Toso
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Michael writes: “But when it comes to so many Protestant/Catholic issues so many will appeal to the “you don’t *really* understand it (at least until one accepts it!).”
I think that’s because the Christian life can’t be reduced to an instruction manual or a textbook on systematic theology, which is true of any tradition in which you may find yourself.
Also, theology–serious theology–is tough stuff. Not everyone can understand it or do it, but that’s okay. This is why in the Catholic Church it is more important that one is in communion with the Church than that one can give the right answers on a theology test. The Church, rather than the individual, is the custodian of doctrine.
It’s quite liberating as a Catholic to know that I don’t have to figure everything out in order to participate in the fullness of the Christian life. I, of course, enjoy reading, studying, and wrestling with theological issues. But they are not the focus of my relationship to Christ and His Church.
I find myself as a Catholic no longer read the Bible as if I were a detective trying to extract evidence for my favorite theological school of thought–i.e., Am I a dispensationalist, young-earth creationist, non-cessationist, Calvinist, non-sacramental congregationalist, blah, blah, blah? Such exercises trivialize Scripture, turning it into just a big Hebrew fortune cookie.
Reading the Bible with the Church avoids that problem and best honors the Scripture as the Word of God…
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My heart breaks that the Body of Christ remains fragmented. In all these things I look to the character of my Father rather than to doubtful disputations.
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@Sparki: I was, as I mentioned born, baptised and raised Irish Roman Catholic in Dublin Ireland, in the 50′s and early 60′s. And I am thankful overall for it, but in those days just before Vatican II, (started in 1962), there was plenty of Catholic works righteousness going around! Not always a bad thing, but certainly not always good either! In those days the RCC taught faith & works!
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Augustine : “We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place” (On the Care That Should be Taken for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]).
And I gently disagree that this is “another debate”. Seems to me that these discussions ALWAYS come down to differing interpretations of the Sciptures. It always comes back to sola scriptura.
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Indeed some places of the American Reformed simply stink! I am friendly with the FV (Federal Vision), and man I get hell for it too! Man or humanity is such a sinful mess, without God’s grace we would all be done for!
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I was a Roman Catholic for two years after I got saved, yet I didn’t worship Mary during those two years, nor even venerate her in any special way anymore, like I had done before I got saved. Eventually, the conflicts I saw between RCC doctrine and biblical Christianity led me away from the RCC. This doesn’t change the fact that I was saved and a Catholic at the same time. Other RCC may be saved, but haven’t yet come to the point of seeing the conflicts so clearly, or perhaps are decided to live with conflict between what they believe and what their community believes or practices. Fair enough.
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Mr. Taylor, a prophet can know a person’s heart when God enables him to do so without making him omniscient. Please see 2 Sam 12. Just as God can enable a prophet to have a limited knowledge about a person’s heart, so God can enable a saint in heaven to have a limited knowledge about a person’s heart. I can indeed differentiate between the two, and the Bible backs me up.
You said: “Lord Jesus I am sorry for my sins. Please forgive me…….That isn’t worshiping the Lord Jesus? Are you serious?”
Yes, sir, very serious. I can understand how you might have missed this if you go to one of many evangelical churches that don’t teach what actual worship is. They fill their so-called “worship” services with songs that are focused on themselves (“I’ll Fly Away” — great song, but nothing about Jesus in it. It’s totally about the person singing it), with only a few songs that are actually directed to Christ (“Lord, I Lift Your Name On High” or “I know that My Redeemer Lives” or many other excellent songs).
When you are praying, “Jesus, I adore You…Jesus, I give my all to You,” and other similar statements, that’s worship because you are focused on Him without any thought of yourself. When you are praying, “Jesus, help me” or “Jesus, I need X” or “Jesus, I am sorry,” you are focused on yourself, so it can’t be worship. Worship is always about Him. At least it should be. So, all worship is prayer but not all prayer is worship. The prayers we say to…
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Fr. Robert, I have repeatedly stated that Catholics believe that Jesus is the only Mediator and that nobody shares in that role. So I think you must be directing your statements to somebody else’s post(s). I hope you can figure out who you are trying to connect with.
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You are very right that the issue does always come to ultimate authority. I wish that we could all be more comfortable with our own smallness and fallibility. Protestants fallibly interpret the Bible. Catholics fallibly interpret the Church. We all ultimately end up in the same place. The solution for me is to look at what is clearly taught in the Bible (and there are many things) and to the regula fide of the church. It is a fairly safe and comfortable venture so long as people don’t lean too heavily on their own interpretation or too heavily on the church. God likes some tension in our lives. Solving it by punting to the church or a burning in the bosom is easy, but, in my opinion, less than the best.
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@Pete: Indeed sola Scriptura is a “fault-line” for sure, but a very important one! I can myself not get around it! Check out Luther’s statements here, he simply had learned he could not trust (fully) the historic Church Catholic! And he actually loved the Church Catholic, see The Schmalkald Articles sometime! I love the true Church Catholic myself, but it is always a Pilgrim Church in this life and world!
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To KG: The Catholic Church most certainly teaches that salvation comes by grace through faith in Christ alone, just like the Bible. Here it is from the Catechism:
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life
Furthermore:
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. ***We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.*** (emphasis mine)
I hope this sets your mind at ease.
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Saying, “Lord Jesus I am sorry” is focusing in on yourself? On the contrary, it focuses in on Him as Lord (not you as Lord). To deny this is worship of the Lord Jesus simply reveals the pathetic lengths a Catholic will go.
Your example about the prophet in 2 Sam. 12 won’t work because you have to prove that the prophet knew the TOTALITY of another’s heart – that you can not prove. But to be the heart-knower of all (kardiognwstes) does prove all of the heart by all people is FULLY known.
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@Sparki: Don’t go ad hom on my now! Quote some Catholic theological authority, try Aquinas perhaps?
But you have simply lost so far! Holy Scripture is the hammer, not me! 
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*me
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I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one. I don’t see the issues to be any different than what Paul was addressing in Galatians. His point seems clear: if you are adding to the gospel, it is no longer the gospel; and if you no longer have the gospel, you are severed from Christ. I think the 1John passage is addressing a specific issue, that of false teachers teaching that Jesus had not come in the flesh. They were most likely precursors to gnosticism and/or docetism. In any event, I don’t think John would have suggested that as long as someone gets Christ’s deity/humanity right, then their salvation is secure regardless of their beliefs about salvation and the atonement, as that would seem to be in disagreement with Paul. At least that’s how I see it. Anyway, interesting post and keep me posted on your PhD stuff!
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Mr. Peters, I am afraid that you are repeating an “old chestnut” from the days of the early protestant movement that is not true. The Catholic Church never sought to keep the Bible out of the hands of ordinary people. Rather, as I am sure you have learned in history, there was a problem in that the printing press was not invented until the 15th century. For 15 centuries, the Church painstakingly copied the Scriptures *by hand* and made it available to churches throughout the settled world where it was read aloud at every Mass (daily when possible). You also might remember from history that most of the world was illiterate and couldn’t have read the Bible even if they each owned copies. It was the Catholic Church that taught Scriptures to ordinary people. Go to Mass every day for 3 years, and you will hear the Scriptures almost in entirety. I know of few Evangelical preachers who ever do more than teach a little out of the OT, focusing on the NT. I’ve got a good friend from Ecuador who is Nazarene – her dad was a preacher and was never once stoned during his open-air preaching for 25 years, so I’m afraid there might have been something lost in translation when you were there. Or you were being teased. Anyway, Catholics read and love the Scriptures. In fact, the Mass is about 90% word-for-word out of Scripture, which I find very fulfilling after years as an evangelical, where our 90-minute “worship” services were mostly about the pastor’s intellectual discourses.
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Michael,
LOL
“God likes some tension in our lives”? Jesus Christ said “Peace be with you” at least 26 times in the Gospel, not “tension be with you”.
“Solving it by punting to the church”? Have you gotten Tebow-fever or something? Matthew 18:17: “Tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen”.
Peace be with you!
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Theology is not “tough stuff”: “what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” “Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and … To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction”
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Mr. Samuel, We Catholics (who follow Jesus, thanks) know that faith without works is dead. and who fully trust the Lord Jesus Christ alone for our salvation. We believe in turning away from our sins (we have a whole Sacrament devoted to it). We do confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe with all our hearts that God raised Him from the dead. We’re just as Christian as you are.
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Pete, you either took me out of context, the Scripture, or both. But I am not sure that those passages apply to what I said.
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Sparki, you said “Go to Mass every day for 3 years, and you will hear the Scriptures almost in entirety. ” Have you read http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/Statistics.htm?
“However, since many parts of the Bible (esp. the Old Testament) are still not included in the Lectionary, one must go beyond the readings used at Mass to cover the entire Bible.”
What percentage RC go to Mass daily? I looked at CARA, it said 3.3% go more then once a week. (http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/FRStats/massattendweek.pdf) And yet this “sacrifice” still leaves you without true peace with God. The chart has Current Lectionary 71.5% of NT for Sundays and Weekdays and 13.5% of OT without Psalms. The pre-Vatican is only 1% OT without Psalms and 16.5% of NT for Sundays Major Feasts.
When I was young, we went weekly. From the Lectionary chart, 1 Chronciles is 0%, Obadiah is 0%, Judith is 0%. The chart has Current Lectionary 71.5% of NT for Sundays and Weekdays and 13.5% of OT without Psalms. The pre-Vatican is only 1% OT without Psalms and 16.5% of NT for Sundays Major Feasts.
I am thankful that you hear God’s Word with your ears, but not the hearers of the Law are just, do not be a hearer only, but a doer of the Word. I repeat, “”However, since many parts of the Bible (esp. the Old Testament) are still not included in the Lectionary, one must go beyond the readings used at Mass to cover the entire Bible.”
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Mary was baptised in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2 – she was there)
Mary is now dead – or asleep in the Lord if you will – awaiting the resurrection upon Christ’s return.
Jesus is alive!
some Catholics pray to / ask intercession from Mary – dead prayers since she can’t hear them.
others do not, and go solely thru Jesus – live prayers
bottom line as I mentioned before – are you born again?
are you now going on in faith (John 20.31 et al)
and note that the present continuous tense is used
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Sparki, so is this what you believe
“O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the goods which God grants to us miserable sinners, and for this reason he has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinnerswho have recourse to thee. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it isenough for me. For, if thou protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou are more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge himself, because by one prayer from thee he will be appeased. But one thing I fear, that in the hour of temptation I may neglect to call on thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, then, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace always to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.”? Will you not listen to God’s Word to you instead? Acts 4:12, John 14:6, Come to Me and I will give you rest. Everyone who believes in Him is justified, all the Prophets bear witness that whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins, He who believes in Him is not condemned, expect you drink this Blood you have no life in you.
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Mr. Taylor,
Yes, saying, “Lord Jesus, I am sorry” is focused on the self. I have done wrong. I am sorry. I need forgiveness from the Lord. Everything is directed toward gaining something for the self, rather than giving to the Lord, which is what worship is. There is nothing wrong with the “I’m sorry” prayers, of course. They simply are not worship. Worship is always 100% giving to Jesus, not receiving anything for ourselves. If our worship is about getting something for ourselves, then we would be worshiping ourselves, wouldn’t we?
Continuing on, I’m not the one who has EVER said that a prophet or Mary or anybody else knows the totality of anybody’s heart. I have consistently maintained that prophets and saints in heaven only have a partial knowledge, such that God enables them to have. If you care to address that point, I’m all ears. 2 Sam 12 still stands as my example of how the Bible proves that God can enable a human to know something (a limited something) that another human being holds inside, and that’s the type of gift He gives to Mary to allow her to know when we are asking her to pray with us and for us.
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May the Lord guide us all in your life and death to be like Stephen the Martyr who called on the Lord Jesus:
““You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”
When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.” (Acts 7)
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Fr. Robert, how on earth have you concluded that I have “gone ad hom on you” in any way? I am so confused by the messages you address toward me, because if they are for me, they ignore what I have posted here. Naturally, I think you must have me mixed up with somebody else.
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May the Lord make us like the wise men in our life,
“After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.” (Matthew 2). If you walk into a room with two statues, one of Mary and one of Jesus, what do you do? When the wise saw the child with his mother Mary, what did they do?
And like this “Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk from the city. When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.” (Acts 1). Who were they praying to, ‘along with’? What would you have done? “As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” What is Peter…
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Mr. Samuel:
Yes, as I said in my last message to you, MOST of the Scriptures are read at Mass over 3 years time, not all. And yes, I know that Bible study outside of Mass is very important.
My husband and children are able to go to Mass daily. I used to, but now I have a long commute for work that interferes with the early Mass times where I live. In the city where I work, there is no Catholic church near enough for me to go to noon Mass, so I content myself with Scripture reading and prayer for now.
I wonder why you assume that I don’t have true peace with God. How would you even know that? I’ve been more at peace since becoming Catholic than I ever was as an evangelical. I’ve found more victory over sin, more help in times of trouble, more joy, more of everything.
Thanks for your attention to the Catholic lectionary, but I think you’re missing something. And have you bothered to check on how evangelicals and fundamentalists are doing with their coverage of Scripture? As I said earlier, my experience in such churches is that they taught LESS Scripture than Catholic churches do.
You go on to suggest that I must not be a “doer” of the Word. Again, I have no idea how you would know that. I assure you that you are quite wrong. I live to follow Jesus. I realize that will never be good enough for you and many others here, but Jesus knows my heart is focused on Him and He knows I trust Him and Him alone for everything.
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Sparki, thank you for your response. I’m sorry that you were in churches that taught less scripture than catholic churches do. Of course I agree the scriptures that are read in the RC -that’s God Word – compare it to the Homily. Where was this and what did you do to fix it? Clearly this is not my experience – of course faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Jehovah’ Witnesses study a lot, but do not have faith in Christ. search the scriptures, but come to Christ. I meant what I said only in pointing you to the Lord Jesus Christ, our righteousness, our peace. I only know what you think from the arguments you put foward on this board. Romans 5:1 Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace through our Lord Jesus Christ. If you have peace with God, are you talking about an objective peace or a feeling of peace? What is your peace based on? My peace is based solely on the imputed righteousness of Christ, as taught in the Letter of Romans. It only takes an hour or so to read it, may I urge you to take some time and read it carefully?
I grew up RC, all my family is RC, – my wife and I trust in Lord Jesus Christ, May He bless you and your family with His Word.
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Mr. Samuel, the peace in Christ that I speak of is not a feeling of peace. It’s different from that. It’s a stillness of mind, a laser-like focus on Him throughout the usual trials and tribulations of life. It’s complete trust in Him, even if it means going against societal norms. I guess I would say it’s a supernatural peace – hard to explain. It wells up from within me but it doesn’t come from me, and it grows with each passing year. Is that what you mean by “objective” peace?
I do not understand what you meant by writing, “Where was this and what did you do to fix it?”
If you knew about my faith from what I wrote on this thread, you would know that I trust Jesus and Him alone for my salvation. And yet you seem to think I don’t.
I grew up atheist. My husband grew up holy roller evangelical. We trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, and so do our children. We pray together as a family to the Lord. We give thanks to the Lord for all we have. We all read the Scriptures every single day. Still, we’re not “Christian” to certain people. When I was an evangelical, I was taught that Catholics are not Christian. But when I actually sat down and read what Catholic really believe, I learned that Catholics are indeed Christian. God called my husband and I to convert. We were shunned by family and friends, but we obediently followed the Lord’s guidance, and it has only borne good fruit. How could anybody say it was wrong when we are to judge by the fruit?
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Sparki,
Wrong. You are agreeing that He is Lord. Too bad you refuse to see that. Maybe one day He will be your Lord too.
Worship is 100% giving to Jesus? Yes, and properly claiming Him as Lord (agreeing that no others are Lord) is giving Him His due is it not?
Still like to know how she can hear 500 million or even a billion prayers at the same time without being omniscient.
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“Wrong. You are agreeing that He is Lord. Too bad you refuse to see that.”
I don’t think I follow. How am I wrong for agreeing that Jesus is Lord? And how am I refusing to see that Jesus is Lord when I am simultaneously agreeing that Jesus is Lord? I am confused.
“Maybe one day He will be your Lord too.”
Jesus is already my Lord, thanks. I trust Him for my salvation and everything else.
“Worship is 100% giving to Jesus? Yes, and properly claiming Him as Lord (agreeing that no others are Lord) is giving Him His due is it not?”
Um, I never said that “properly claiming Jesus as Lord and agreeing that no others are Lord is giving Him His due.” Of COURSE it’s giving Him His due.
Still, asking for something for oneself is not worshiping Jesus. Worship of Jesus is 100% about Jesus without any thought of oneself. So the “I’m sorry” prayer is still a good prayer, but it’s not a prayer of worship. It’s a prayer of repentance.
“Still like to know how she can hear 500 million or even a billion prayers at the same time without being omniscient.”
I’ve already answered this several times. Mary knows our prayers only because God enables her to know our prayers. She is not omnicient. She doesn’t know EVERYthing, only what God enables her to know. Exactly like a prophet only knows what God enables him to know. Do you not agree that God can enable one human to know something about another human? The Bible says He can do this. Don’t you believe in…
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@ thrufaithalone #46 page 3,
Our Lady of Fatima is really here nor there when it comes to Co-Redemtrix. They cover different issues.
I should explain also that Our Lady of Fatima is nowhere near dogma. A dogma is what is declared infallibly. Fatima is what is known as private revelation, as opposed to public revelation which ended with the age of the apostles. Public revelation is what the Church guards, interprets, and teaches. The faithful are not obliged to believe or follow private revelations. So, hypothetically, I could believe that Fatima is a giant hoax and still be a Catholic in good standing. Sometimes, the Church will give its approval to a private revelation –I think the terminology is “worthy of pious belief.”
Anyway, the idea behind Fatima (repentance) is not the same as the idea behind Co-Redemtrix (Mary’s special role in the Body of Christ).
As you can see, there’s more than first meets the eye to Catholic doctrine and teaching, and it’s best to believe Catholics when they try to explain what their teachings mean, rather than interpret their Church’s writings for them.
I used to be a Protestant, and I know all you’re doing is trying to protect “pure” doctrine. You love God and you think you’re being loyal to him by pointing out “flaws” in Catholic doctrine. You probably wonder why Catholics can’t see these”outrageous” problems in their practice. I used to do that too. it’s just that you have on Protestant-colored glasses,…
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And you don’t know it yet. (:
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Whoops, I should have just trusted my spelling instinct…it should be Co-Redemptrix.
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Though I think that these comments have been very good and productive, things seem to be taking a bad turn. Thanks for all the comment, but this thread is now closed.
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