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Why I Don’t Like “Once-Saved-Aways-Saved”
by C Michael PattonMarch 29th, 2010
89 Comments
I have often said that it is easier to tell when someone is a true Christian than to tell if they are not. In other words, some people wear their conviction on their shoulder. The power of the Holy Spirit could not be clearer. Their passion, understanding, grace, humility, and faith are clearly evident in everything they do. I know and can state with a great degree of confidence that they trust in Christ and are saved. They are in the race and they are running. Others, however, it is hard to tell. They may say they are saved, but I am not convinced with the same degree of conviction. They may be convinced, but I am not. I am not saying they are not saved, I just don’t know. Some live in a perpetual state of doubt, failure, and terrible sin. They may be in the race, but they are not running. However, even when they are at their worst, I cannot say with the same degree of confidence that they are not saved than when I can say someone is saved.
I have a lot of people contact me because they are scared they are not saved. They want assurance and they want me to provide it. My background, training and tradition all push me to attempt to alleviate people’s doubts and fears, assuring them that they are secure in their salvation and can never lose this security. After all, I believe that without security, we have never really embraced the fullness of the Gospel message.
But there is another side to this coin. And it is this other side that I wish to address.
I have someone who I can’t figure out. Conversations with him are always very frustrating. I just want to crack his head open and see what is inside. I want to gaze where only God can see. What I want to know is does he really know Christ? My heart says “I hope” but my mind says “I don’t know. I doubt it.”
If you were to look at the life of this friend, you would not suspect that he has ever broached the throne room of God. You would not expect that he has ever humbly bowed at the cross, understanding his own condition and asking for mercy. I have never seen him read his Bible and I have never heard him honor Christ with his words. His life is one of constant pursuit of what the world has to offer and it completely controls his emotional state. Comforting him with spiritual talk is useless as you will get the gaze of ridicule and quickly share in the humility of having your conversation cut short by awkward silence.
Yet, when push comes to shove, this guy will give you his testimony. Every once in a while he will tell you why you don’t need to be worried about his spiritual condition. He will confidently tell you of the time when he was twelve years old and walked the aisle at Church to accept the Gospel. Once his tale is complete, he has exhausted his ability to have a spiritual conversation and the awkward silence ensues.
Is this guy saved? Can it be that he truly walked the aisle so long ago and has not flexed a spiritual muscle since? Why is he so secure in his salvation?
In his office, there is one spiritual relic. It is an old piece of paper that hangs prominently by his desk entitled “The Believer’s Security.” On it are listed all of the passages of Scripture that give assurance that a believer cannot lose their salvation. This unqualified doctrine was something that he was taught immediately after his saving experience. This is what he banks on every day.
I have changed quite a bit over the years with regards to the doctrine often called “eternal security” or “once-saved-always-saved.” Don’t start squirming fellow Calvinists, there are not many things I believe in stronger than the ultimate security of salvation. But I believe that there are some people who do need to squirm. I believe that there are some people whose eternal destiny depends on their own insecurity.
I am going to tell the “Parable of the Race.” You may have heard it before, but I am going to modify it quite a bit for our purposes.
“In a town of ultimate boredom called Mundane, there was a great announcement. It was the announcement of a race. A great race that all could enter. A race that would rescue them from boredom. Most people did not believe that such an event would be held in Mundane so they scoffed. Others immediately prepared with great enthusiasm and joy.
Both the scoffers and the enthusiasts arrived at the appointed place on the day of the race. The scoffers sat and watched while the others prepared to run by stretching and making sure their shoes were tied. They lined up looking ahead with the intensity, fear, and excitement that accompanied such an event.
The gun sounded and off they went. Yet something very curious and unexplainable happened. They all stopped running after they had passed the starting line. Not only this, but they acted very peculiar. One person fell on his knees crying, thanking God that he crossed the starting line. Others gave each other high fives and hugs shouting, “Hooray, we are now race runners, we are now race runners.” Some shook hands and congratulated each other. One group relaxed and complemented one another on how well they crossed the starting line. Five or six others all gathered together and formed a prayer circle. They prayed that others would cross the starting line as they had.
Many others wanted to experience this joy so they decided to start the race as well. They were immediately stopped by the well-wishers who had started before them. They decided to stay as well. After a few days, there were people handing out pamphlets along with a certificate to all those who crossed the starting line. The pamphlet told them that once they had started the race they were guaranteed to finish. The certificate was to recognize their achievement in finishing the race even before they finished. It became very high on the agenda of all the race runners to make sure that people who had started knew of their assurance of completion. So much so that there was a printing press built right at the starting gate which produced millions of the pamphlets.
After a few months, there were so many who had crossed the starting line that they decided to build a town right there. They called this town “Starting Line Village.”
The spectators were confused. “I thought a race had to be finished,” they said to one another. They interviewed the people of Starting Line Village. “Why did you start the race and not continue?” they would ask. This made the people of Starting Line Village very uncomfortable. They would immediately show their certificate saying that they were guaranteed to finish. When people would encourage them to run the rest of the race, they would be ridiculed for not trusting the pamphlet. They were called legalists and were accused of trusting too much in their own ability to finish the race rather than the words on the pamphlet.
Finally, many of the watchers in the crowd became fed up with those in Starting Line Village and decided to run the race themselves with the intent to finish. They refused the certificates and left the people of Starting Line Village to hand out the pamphlets alone.”
This parable illustrates a problem that we have in the church today. There are many people who are very comfortable in their profession of faith they made so long ago. So comfortable are these people that they never make any further moves in their walk with God. Like my friend, they rely upon the “once-saved-always-saved” doctrine that they were taught immediately upon conversion. They have crossed the starting line, but are not running the race.
I don’t have a problem with teaching once-saved-always-saved, but I think we need to qualify it a great deal. I know, qualifying our own security seems very counterproductive. Let me be plain and clear. The doctrine of God’s grace is radical. It is absolutely radical. It is unbelievably radical. God gives us an unspeakable gift free of charge. We don’t owe God anything for it. Neither is it on lay-away. In fact, it would be very offensive to God for us to even try to pay for it. It is priceless. Yet this gift, from a human point of view, is received by faith. Faith is the evidence of our salvation. It is the instrumental cause of our salvation. Faith is the evidence that we have entered into the race. But what we fail to emphasize is often more destructive to the Christian faith than not telling the Gospel at all. We fail to tell people that there is a false kind of faith. There is a faith that crosses the starting line, but never completes the race. There is a faith that does not save.
Paul encourages the Corinthians:
“Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you– unless indeed you fail the test?” (2 Cor. 13:5)
The author of Hebrews says:
“Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.” (Heb. 4:1)
In Revelation, it is only those who overcome who are promised eternal life:
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” (Rev. 2:7; emphasis mine)
James speaks about a faith that does not save:
“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” (Jam. 2:14)
Remember in the parable of the soils in Matthew 13, there are three types of seeds that sprout (start the race), but only one truly takes root (finishes the race).
And time will fail us if we are to recount all the false prophets of false hope in the Old Testament. These are the ones who were continually telling the Israelites of their own security when destruction was right around the corner.
I believe that once a person is truly saved, he or she will never lose that salvation. Yet I think we need to warn people that not all faith is true faith.
If you have crossed the starting line, great! Bravo, hooray, and congrats. But, from a human point of view, this is no guarantee that you will cross the finish line. I am sorry, but I do no service to you by trying to immediately tell you that your faith is true. I don’t know if it is. The doctrine is not really called “Once-Saved-Always-Saved,” but “Perseverance of the Saints.” I think that we need to get away from calling it “once-saved-always-saved.” I don’t like it. From God’s point of view, your salvation is protected. You are his child, elect of God, and nothing can change that. But from our perspective, you are his child if you are trusting in him. Is your faith persevering? It is not about whether you can recount a time in the past when you trusted him once. It is about whether or not you are in his family and are trusting him now. We are called believers, not because we believed, but because we believe.
We all need to question whether or not our faith is the kind of faith that saves. We do a great disservice to the Gospel to make it a priority to immediately alleviate any anxiety or doubt of salvation in those who profess faith. We may be giving them a false sense of security that they will take to their grave. This may be what happens to my friend. I fear the worst. On the day of judgment they will say “Lord, Lord, didn’t I cross the starting line? Wasn’t I a race runner?” He will respond, “Depart from me. I never knew you.”
There is a healthy tension concerning our salvation that should follow us our entire Christian walk.
If you are saved, part of the Gospel message is that you can be assured of your salvation (1 John 5:13). God wants you to know it. However, I don’t want anyone to be assured of something that is not true. And I believe that there are a lot of people who are.
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89 Comments
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I’ve never really subscribed to OSAS. A weakness I see is the default answer to the objection of those who end up turning their backs on God: “They were never saved in the first place.” People who believe it’s in the bag have to spend their lives proving that they’re saved.
Personally, I know God will never forsake me. His love and grace are and always will be extended to me. I believe I’m free to walk away, but that only becomes a danger when I live a life devoid of repentance, searing my conscience and leading to a place where I reject the gift.
CMP, I’m aware we have different viewpoints on this (largely as a result of the whole Calvinism bit), but I appreciate you wrestling with issues like this and acknowledging the other side of the coin.
Btw, I wasn’t trying to start a debate with my first two paragraphs. I was just letting you know where I’m coming from.
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Is this guy putting his hope in walking an aisle or is he putting his hope in Jesus? That makes all the difference in the world.
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Michael, I fully agree with you. In fact, I wrote a similar post in my Blog sometime back. And I need one clarification: How do you think one can test herself or examine himself if they are in the faith, as Paul exhorted the Corinth Christians? Thanks!
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Perhaps once saved always saved is not true?
A related question, even if true, why the imperative to teach it immediately someone says a salvation prayer?
It is important to note that those who deny OSAS also believe we are secure in God. I am secure God will never leave me.
*****
On an unrelated note Michael, how does one generally respond to your nanoblog (Hapax Legomenon)?
I have something I want to say (though I would prefer via email so will do that)
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Michael, the running race metaphor is thought provoking and easy to understand a confusion that strikes me once a while after I read the following verses quoted by someone on ‘forfeiting salvation’
All these verses insist me to ‘do’ certain things.
Matt. 10:22: “And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.”
Matt. 7:7-8: “Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened.”
Matt. 12:31-32:”Therefore, I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.”
Luke 8:13: “And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
John 15:5-6: “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
2 Pet 1:10,11:Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.”
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“It is important to note that those who deny OSAS also believe we are secure in God. I am secure God will never leave me.”
Very true Beth.
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Continued from the previous
2 Pet. 2:20-22: “For if after they have escaped the defilement’s of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, ‘a dog returns to its own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.’”
I endorse your statement that there is a question whether or not our faith is the kind of faith that saves. I think it’s difficult to define a Christian by how he appears. Every individual knows about where he is in the sight of God despite his outward claiming on verses those prove ‘once saved, always saved’
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Interesting post.
I have a couple of questions for you. What about the poor people who come into the “starting line village” and never understand that there is a race to be run because of all of the pamphlets telling them that they have already won the race? It was not their fault that they didn’t run, but rather the fault of those who told them not to run….that they didn’t have to. Is Jesus going to tell those poor latecomers who received the bad instructions “Depart from me, I never knew you.” simply because they received bad theological instruction?
This is highly personal to me because I struggled for fifteen years after my initial Baptism (in a Baptist Church) with ‘serious sin’ because I too received ‘bad theology.’ It has only been in the last two years that I have come to the place where I realized that I had to run the race and began to understand what running the race consisted of. My life transformation in the last two years has finally become what I hoped for seventeen years ago.
Sometime back I asked my pastor if he thought that I had been saved those many years ago or if it in fact was much more recent. He assured me that my salvation was secure way back then but that I had been suffering from ‘bad theology and various addictions’. At first I thought that he was just trying to say that to make me feel better, but I’m not so sure anymore. I think that he was right.
I know that when I first professed faith in Christ (I was 24) that I seriously meant it. The more that I study soteriology, the more that I believe that I was simply like my pastor said, suffering from bad theology and various addictions that God through His power and grace is helping me to overcome.
N.T. Wrights latest book on Justification kind of convinced me that my pastor was right along with a lot of other readings.
BTW, I’m not a Calvinist but am Wesleyan with an Anglican streak in me, although I have nothing against Calvinism, just can’t quite buy into the whole TULIP.
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I like the analogy of the race. I think many Christians start the race but never try to finish. I’m probably guilty of it myself.
I’m no fan of the terms “Once Saved, Always Saved”. I do believe in Eternal Security, or Perseverance of the Saints. I think Once Saved, Always Saved is more of a strawman. The term evokes an emotional reaction that is easy to rail against. I often hear it coming from non-Calvanists.
I think it’s easy to confuse the loss of salvation with the loss of inheritance. Those who start the race and camp out just past the starting line will find all of their works burned up at the Bema Seat judgement.
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‘Once saved always saved’ is dangerous b/c of its tendency to blur the line between the assurance of salvation which is based on our works (I John 2:13) and the notion of eternal security which is based on God’s work (Rom. 8:29-30).
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“Every individual knows about where he is in the sight of God despite his outward claiming on verses those prove ‘once saved, always saved’”
But I think that’s the detriment of the altar call. It creates a false sense of security of where that person is with God especially if they are assured that taking that step puts them in. I think a BIG problem also is how we present the invitation to the gospel. The altar call has to be qualified with an exhortation to have a life of testing and trusting.
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Michael,
Thanks for this post. Being Wesleyan/Arminian, I’ve always had a major problem with OSAS (but I also have some major problems with some of our theology as well). My wife grew up independent Baptist, so we’ve had a lot of good conversations about the differences in our doctrinal upbringing. When we began discussing OSAS, it turned out she didn’t really believe it, after all. She just said she did because that’s what she’s been taught. When it’s put to the test, especially in real life and not the dusty halls of academia, I just don’t see it as having a leg to stand on. But even for Calvinists, I don’t see how it can be considered so essential. I always appreciate your thought provoking ideas and your spirit of humility. God bless you!
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If the point of the analogy is that a person can choose to “walk away” from God’s salvation, that is not scriptural. The believer’s security, as testified to by the pice of paper on your friends’s desk, has nothing to do with whether your friend is saved. Either he is or he isn’t. And if he is not, he never was. You are mixing apples and oranges.
Have you asked him on what basis he is saved other than a walk down the aisle? It would be no great shock to find out at the end of time that your friend is one of the many who will cry out, “Lord, Lord!” and yet be sent away. But you will not likely know, if you ever know, until then.
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Interesting post, Michael. I pretty much agree with you. In your analogy, crossing the starting line is like justification – solely the work of God. Getting from the starting line to the finish line on the other hand is like sanctification – both the work of God and man. Problem seems to be that some Christians fail to recognize their role after crossing the starting line. While I’m reformed in my theological understanding, I encounter quite a few Christians who fail to recognize that synergism is required in getting to the finish line.
If one’s faith is genuine, they WILL make it to the finish line.
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In Philippians 2:12-13 Paul encourages the believers to work out their salvation because God is working through them. I believe that verse 13 is a base for the Perseverance of the Saints doctrine. “Confessing believers” that show no fruit are usually not interested in growing in Christ.
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
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Michael,
I have the same questions with friends and family who say they are believers, but you wouldn’t know it by looking at the way they live. People that rarely go to church, have no regret for their sins (or don’t know what sin is), live for the things in this world (money, material things, etc..), don’t have much evidence going for them to have security of salvation.
I once did the sinners prayer, actually more than once, starting when I was in my early 20′s. After that prayer, nothing changed as far as my sinful lifestyle. Never felt convicted of doing my sins. I wasn’t convicted of my sinful state until a couple years ago, and now I’m 37. Heck, I used to think Jesus died for everyone and all I had to do is acknowledge that I believed He was real and I was going to Heaven. Then He called me and opened my heart to the gospel and I’ve never been the same, glory to God!
The altar call that so many pastors do is not Biblical in my opinion. Where is there a sinners prayer in the Bible? Doesn’t the Bible teach faith by hearing the word and not a prayer? Isn’t it the Holy Spirit who does the work in us, not anything of ourselves so know one can boast? I’m mean really, God knows our heart better than we do, and if we do a sinners prayer and don’t mean it, He has no reason to give us his grace. A person has to be truly convicted of their sin, God needs to open our heart and make it receptive to His calling.
Only God decides who gets his Grace, and nothing we do matters. I never knew what being a Calvinist meant, but I would have to say after reading the Bible the last couple years, I am a Calvinist for the most part. Once a person is “truly saved”, you don’t loose your salvation.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joy in Christ,
Brandon
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This is quite the complicated issue. What I’m about to say may be dangerous, but I think that it might be on the right track to resolving the issue.
Jesus told us that if we are His then we will bare His fruit. He was careful to make sure that we didn’t take this to mean that 100% of the fruit we bare will be His; He prunes us constantly. If we are in Christ, then we will consistently bare His fruit. Sin will not be the norm; it is not consistently found in our list of fruits.
I want to clarify that I am talking about our actions specifically when I’m talking about fruits here.
The Bible teaches that what a man’s heart is and what a man truly believes will display in his actions. It is true that only God knows the heart, but man can see another man’s actions. The Corinthian church was told that they are to hold their “brothers and sisters” responsible for their actions. This does not mean that we are to pass an “eternal judgment” (“You’re going to Hell”)- that is God’s job alone. But as Christians we were commanded to guide each other and pass judgments that convict the person for their actions in an effort to help the other grow.
Unfortunately, the bad stuff is what gets all the attention in today’s Church. A person may be “on fire for Christ”, but make one mistake, then everyone assumes that that sin is the norm for that person. Even though we may only see the bad stuff, we may not be aware of the rest of the person’s fruits. This is how “only God knows the heart” can be a solace for those who are not the person.
Each person knows his own heart. Many are in denial, and use the OSAS “doctrine” to justify their continued rebellion against God, to themselves and others.
Michael, what you state sounds scripturally consistent. I’d like to see even more detail in the future.
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There are actually two issues at work here: the question of “perseverance of the saints,” and the question of the means of assurance. My Wesleyan friends have as much assurance as I do, though we differ on perseverance.
The Bible maintains a nice balance between objective and subjective means of assurance: the historical fact of your repentance and faith, and the ongoing growth of fruit in the believer’s life. A student of mine recently wrote a dissertation on the subject which has just been published:
http://www.amazon.com/Assurance-Salvation-Implications-Testament-Theology/dp/1606820443/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269873525&sr=8-1
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Michael,
Perhaps both the Arminians and the Calvinists are correct. The Arminian looks at things from man’s point of view; while the Calvinist looks at things from God’s point of view. From man’s point of view, it is certainly possible to fall away and many do. From the Calvinist’s point of view, a truly saved person cannot fall away. The problem, is that man does not know for certain that he is “really” saved (or part of the elect) until he perseveres to the end. Thus, you have all the warning passages which you mention in your post and there are many others. Calvinists tend to “explain away” these verses, thus taking away their significance.
Obviously, this is all academic for me now as I no longer believe the Bible is a revelation from God. I think its man’s attempt to explain his notions about God and how God interacts with the world. Thus, to me its not suprising at all that you have this conflict in the Scripture.
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Ah, the issue of assurance! CMP, are you going to instruct us on the use of the practical syllogism? What “tests” are we to use? How about the differences between passive and active faith?
“We all need to question whether or not our faith is the kind of faith that saves.”
I couldn’t disagree more.
We don’t need to question our faith, we need to excercise it on the object, Christ Jesus.
I doubt your friend ever thinks about Christ or his relationship to Him. It’s not so much that his faith is “false”, but that it is nonexistant.
I assume you are aware of the counterarguments to the “false” faith doctrine (Kendall, Hodges, etc.) within the Calvinistic tradition, but I’m unsure whether you want the discussion to go there. So I’ll just stop for now.
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Excellent, and well-put!
Lisa, I agree. I’m not entirely convinced that alter calls are a mistake, but if given there needs to be much qualification and even warning that ‘going forward’ to such a call does not in itself secure ones salvation. I know people who have come to a point of true conversion in such a situation. Dan Wallace is one. A neighbor of mine went forward at a Billy Graham crusade years ago. The benefit of an alter call is that once the gospel has been preached to a large audience (a good thing), there is an opportunity for people to respond and be counseled (hopefully by well-trained individuals). Sometimes the Spirit moves in a person’s heart to bring them to a point of true conviction over their sin right then and there. That is what absolutely must be the case in order for someone to be truly saved. If a person goes forward…or responds to the gospel in any way which does not involve a Spirit-induced remorse over their sinfulness they will not be converted at that time.
Randy, I would not be so convinced, as your pastor was, that you were saved during those years in question. I have heard a number of testimonies such as yours, where a person responds to the gospel in some way followed by an extended time of much persistent sin…..only coming to a place of true conviction over their sin (and repentance) years later. I would say that you were like one of the soils/seeds in the parable of the sower who sprouted up but did not take root because the conversion was not real. You are not the first person I’ve heard say that their pastor tried to give them assurance of their salvation even though they had nagging doubts to the contrary.
Luke (above) has addressed an important element in this conversation. The proof is in the pudding. A believer WILL bear fruit evidencing that they are attached to the vine.
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Our own pastor has twice preached about doubting. Neither time did he say that sometimes our doubts are well-founded and are possibly a warning from God’s Spirit. He essentially said , “You have to first believe something before you can doubt it.” I think he does doubters a disservice to leave it at that. I think that every pastor should periodically preach a strong sermon of warning that it is entirely possible that one might think they are saved, be a regular (and possibly ministering) participant in church and YET not be a true child of God. We can be self-deceived. It is ever-so-posible to be convinced that we are saved…and others around us also think we are saved, and yet as far as God is concerned, He knows that we are NOT. My husband and I providentially heard such a sermon during a period of time when he was coming to realize that despite going forward to an alter call years earlier (because he was ‘scared to death to go to Hell”)…that he might not be a true convert. Upon hearing that sermon my husband confessed to me that he felt very convicted. Months later my husband, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit over his sin, “gave himself completely to Jesus” (in his words). Although he too wondered for awhile if he’d been saved all along, it is all quite clear to me, and increasingly so to him as he sees the Spirit indwelt transformation of his life and heart…that he was NOT a child of God, but now IS!
Randy, you may think, “Well, it doesn’t matter much one way of the other now what your understanding of my past condition is.” I would say that it matters a great deal. Think of the testimony you might have, and the unique ability to reach others who might be false-converts. You might have better insight in this area than many pastors do!
Randy, as to N.T.Wright’s view of justification I would warn you not to be so quick to buy into that. Please take a look at Dan Wallace’s article: http://bible.org/node/17773
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I have always thought that the doctrine of “perseverance of the saints” is a better way to define this issue. It suggests (as Paul does in Phil 1:6) that the saints will persevere. They will continue the work God started. The flip side is that if someone doesn’t persevere, they are not a saint.
Seems that this clears up a lot of the confusion.
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In reading the gospels I always notice that as often as Jesus says “believe in me” he says “follow me.” I often ponder the different implications of those words. I do think the 4 soils are an illustration of the difference.
I “went forward” as a child but in my teens and early 20′s rebelled with all that was in me. Then at 23 or so, faced with a crisis, I prayed to the God of my youth and a process of surrender and repentance began. For a long time i wondered if I was only truly saved after that repentance and surrender, but over the years have become convinced that I was truly saved throughout my rebellion. One thing that weighed heavily is that I was able to look back and see that even during my rebellion, God was ordering my steps and putting into place things that made possible the ministry he eventually gave me.
All this has pushed me towards the Calvinist camp, although my “surrender” came in a staunchly Arminian church, and I argued earnestly for that position for many years. But in retrospect, I feel almost as if my spiritual life is something that has happened to me, not something that I have done. IOW, the movement came from God, not from me. And if God has done all that, he’ll finish it, otherwise everything he has done so far would end in futility, and God’s acts are never futile. If salvation is an act of God, it will be completed – it cannot be lost or rejected. God is good at what he does.
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Great parable. I, too, believe that the saints will persevere in God’s grace. But, the tension of Scripture is that we must persevere. If we don’t, then we will not attain the prize. I want to keep running and remember the words in Scripture where the righteous falls seven times and rise again (Prov 24:16).
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I’ve been struggling greatly with assurance for over six months. It seems that the more I read or hear about it, the more confused and hopeless I become.
I mentioned my story in a comment for another post. Basically, I became a Christian about ten years ago. After two or three solid years of apparently “bearing fruit”, I slowly fell into a particular sin, at first periodically, and then regularly. Then a few years later there was a personal tragedy in my life and my heart grew very cold towards God. It’s interesting– during all this time I never once doubted my salvation.
Then six months ago I repented and started seeking God again. that’s when I was flooded with doubts about my salvation– so much so that I developed major anxiety and depression. The basic doubt is “If you truly were His, then how could you be so far for so long?”
I’m at the point where I don’t know where to go. I examine myself and feel like I fail at every point. Why am I so angry? Why do I not feel more “conviction” over my sin? Why don’t I have more victory over sin? I’ve “surrendered” myself to God so many times– but wait, maybe I’m deceiving myself and I’m not “fully surrendered” (à la Susan’s comments about her husband). Maybe I’m just doing it because I fear hell, which according to John Piper isn’t legitimate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OJ4Ysp5l98). Why am I so full of fear? Doesn’t Paul say we weren’t given a spirit of fear, but of adoption as sons?
I hear certain stories that just completely shatter any hope of assurance– like people who after apparently being Christians for many years hear a sermon or something and say “I just realized, I haven’t truly been saved all these years!”, or people who were by all appearances in love with God, but fell away to never come back “well, I guess they weren’t truly saved to begin with!”
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“For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it.”
So… what are you trying to save? What do you want to gain “assurance of salvation” for? What part or how much of what Jesus says you have to lose do you want to have “assurance of salvation” for? What part of that which you must lose do you instead want to be securely saved and not lost? What part of you or your life do you want to keep or want to be “saved”?
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EricW, are those questions directed at me?
If so, I sincerely appreciate your trying to help, but they make little sense to me.
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Ron:
No, they’re not directed at or to you.
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Ron, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that it isn’t possible for a Christian to be quite badly sidetracked into sin. I wouldn’t want my comments to further confuse you. You might want to read the biography of John Wesley. He thought he was saved for many years and devoted his life to piety and ministry. It took years for him to come to the realization that he wasn’t ‘in Christ’. It’s a worthwhile read I think. I wish I knew (as only God does) what your spiritual condition is so I would know what to say to you. On the one hand I would say that there are two essentials for true conversion: 1) correct belief in Jesus (as the son of God/divine who died and rose again in order to pay the price for our sin which we cannot pay), and the other essential is 2) repentance. As I said in my previous post this repentance (true repentance) will be a product of the conviction over one’s sinfulness which only God’s Spirit can bring. It’s not something we can manufacture on our own. Scripture tells us that God resists the proud but gives grace to those who are humble (as illustrated by the story of the tax collector and the Pharisee at the temple). The tax collector, who had lead a very sinful life, was forgiven because he recognized before God what a wretched sinner he was and begged for God’s mercy (which he knew he didn’t deserve). The Pharisee lived a ‘good, rule-following’ life and said, “I’m glad I’m not like that sinner” (about the Tax Collector). The Pharisee wasn’t forgiven.
On the other hand, the question would be: what do I do if I am a Christian who is entrenched in sin? I would say that it would be a good idea to get counseling. It can be very difficult to break away from the powerful force that sin can become. Most importantly, you need to repent. If you are having a hard time at this point even feeling convicted about your sin (weather or not you are saved) ask God to help you see your sin as He sees it.
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OSAS is a contradiction to Free Will and a misunderstanding of Predestination. Only Theologians and Philosophers who hold to the Adamic Nature tend to preach once saved always saved.
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Ron, I just reread your comment and realize that I may not have addressed all that you said appropriately, as I didn’t look back until after I had posted. I think that it’s good that you have openly stated your concerns here..but it would probably be even better to get some good counseling. Send your comments to Michael Patton via email (he doesn’t always see these comments). He would be a good one to talk to for starters and he might be able to direct you to a pastor who could appropriately help you sort this out.
Maybe my thoughts will not be helpful to you but there are others here (within Michael’s circle who can help you). I will pray for you. The concerns you have are very important issues.
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Thanks Susan. I’m currently meeting with my pastor about this– I know this sounds terrible, but I feel like a burden by continuing to raise the same issues with him (he has NEVER given me the impression that I am– he’s a wonderful pastor)– but at the same time, I’m not sure what else there is to say, or what else there is he can tell me.
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Michael,
I enjoyed your post and the parable. I do agree with you but I need a little clarification. Therefore, I have a few questions.
What are the fruits that a Christian are to bare? Now, I know the standard answer; fruits of the Spirit. But what happens to a Christian struggling in sin who is baring no fruits of the Spirit during this struggle? Are we going to say that if a Christian is struggling with sin that Christ is going to reject him? Does a Christian always struggles with sin or does he get a break from sin every now an then, and therefore, we know he is baring fruit because he got a break?
Forgive me if I am being difficult, but the scripture says “we know them by their fruits.” But “Fruits” may be a little vague to a struggling Christian.
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Great post and parable. Thank you!
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Ron:
I hesitate to counsel over the internet since I don’t know your situation personally and it is too easy to provide a glib answer. I would take what I say to another believer, preferably a mature one like a pastor or church leader and let him look at it as well. Please don’t assume I know what I’m talking about!
That said, I am confident that scripture teaches us that God does not desire that you doubt the salvation he offers you through Christ (1 John 5:13, John 5:24). He desires our faith in Himself to be steadfast and assurance is an integral part of that faith (Heb 11:1). Therefore I am convinced that you can and should be assured of your position before God.
Practically, faith needs to be excercised and fed in order to grow. As faith grows so will assurance.
I would suggest the following activities help our faith grow:
1. Remember that the focus of our faith is Christ himself. He is wonderful, even though we are not.
2. Remind yourself that God is a perfect Heavenly Father. He wants what is best for you.
3. Spend time with Christ. This is mostly done through time in the Word or in prayer. But it also includes service and worship among other things. Doing reinforces believing. Praying is an act of faith. Serving allows you to experience Christ’s love in and through you.
4. Spend time with other believers. God uses believers to encourage our faith and faithfulness (Heb 10:24-25) and through this our assurance will grow as well.
5. Finally, don’t let the past determine your present. Guilt is good to bring us to repentance but it is not to be the prevailing attitude of a believer. We are no longer condemened (Rom 8:1) instead we are dearly loved children (Eph 5:1).
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Susan: I’m not in the habit of challenging people who are trying to help me, but I do want to give a little push-back about something you’ve mentioned here and in another thread, if you don’t mind.
You’ve mentioned more than once that feeling real conviction and remorse over sin seems to be a necessary indicator of true conversion (feel free to correct me if I’m misrepresenting you). I recall once, a few months after I started to turn back to God I just broke down and sobbed over my rebellion. Prior to that, I distinctly remember thinking “why don’t I feel more sorry over what I did?”
Of course, nothing like that has happened since then, which makes me think things like “oh, I was just being emotional that day– I wasn’t TRULY remorseful.” But then I ask myself, and I ask you: where does the Bible indicate that having a strong feeling of remorse is a necessary precursor or consequence of true conversion?
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Thanks for the advice, Jim.
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Hi Ron…
I read your posts and thought I was reading my own story. Trust me…I have walked down that long long road of doubt that your feet are firmly planted on. I am the husband Susan referred to. I feel less than qualified to address your concerns, but felt compelled to do so because of the frighteningly similar circumstances. Susan told my story so I won’t say more at this point. I’m not a blogger and am very uncomfortable putting myself out there in such a public fashion so bear with me. I struggled with doubts about my salvation for 20 years. When we married, both Susan and I thought I was a Christian. Trust me…she wouldn’t have married me if she had any doubts. We attended church regularly and were involved in ministry at various points prior to being married and after. For years, I had little interest in spiritual things or reading my bible. I was never moved to action in my faith or growing spiritually. I too walked the aisle after an alter call and was always told that OSAS. That was always my biggest concern. Was I saved and secure or not? My focus was not on spiritual things or growing in my faith, but on my security. At times the answer was yes and at times no. I can’t count the number of times I asked Jesus to be my savior. I can see now that this focus was a sign that things were not right. I sat in church on countless Sundays after hearing messages about faith in Jesus that moves us to act. I always walked out thinking to myself, “that’s not me.” One Sunday our pastor preached on Matthew 7:13-29. To make a long story short, I realized I was the one who had heard the words of Jesus but had not done them or acted upon them v.26. Jesus warns his disciples that the wise man hears his words and does them v. 24. I knew that was not me. There was no action in my faith. The tension in my life got to a point that I could not take it any more. I used to think that the evil one was always the source of my doubts…
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Ron: Cont’d from Susan’s Husband. Sorry…my first post got cut off. Here’s the rest of it. A rookie mistake.
I sense now looking back that it was probably the HS at work calling me to repentance. That night I went home and got on my knees and asked God to take control of my life and things have never been the same since. I asked God to confirm to me if I was a true believer or show me what I must do if I was not.
He honored my prayers. God promises that if we draw near to Him that He will draw near to us. I would encourage you to seek Him and draw near to Him and He will show you what you must do. Jim is right. We must exercise our faith, which produces assurance and helps it to grow and be strengthened. If we fail to do that, it will only lead to more doubts about where we stand. To this day I’m still not sure about the true timing of my conversion, but the important thing is I’m sure. I would not ignore the doubts you have. I hope this helps.
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i guess what I struggle for in all this: is Jesus a liar when He says if we believe on Him we are saved? I was once in the hyper-charismatic church, i,e. it was what we believed in rather than what Jesus says. I have often wondered if I was going to heaven afterward, despite my deception during those years.
I still have to wonder, hearing dicsussions such as this, which trumps there, our belief or His promise to us?
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Ron, you have ask me a good question. I guess one thing which would first need to be answered is: how should we define conviction? I think conviction involves deep remorse over sin. Contrition would be a good synonym, which means :”the state of feeling remorseful and penitent.
This would be a good discussion to have with your pastor, as he could probably answer you better than I can. It would seem to me that you could not repent of sin if you were not sorry for it, if you didn’t see it as the offense to God that it is. I’m sure that sometimes when I sin, as a believer, I don’t feel remorseful about it. If I don’t, I’m not at all likely to repent of that sin, and will most likely continue in it. Sometimes it is while I am reading God’s word that I feel the prick of conviction over something that I have ignored. I don’t think that it’s possible to separate conviction and repentance from remorse over ones sinfulness.
Perhaps you have become hardened in your lack of repentance. This was very true of my husband for many years. He was prideful and would never admit to any wrong-doing. He felt no remorse over sin.
As for scriptural support I will let you have that discussion with your pastor. I have two sick kids at home tonight so I must depart for now. I do know that scripture tells us that it is the kindness of God which leads us to repentance.
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I love that parable, CMP!!!
BTW, have you shared this blog post with your dad?
Hope that was not an overly intrusive, prying question. Feel free not to respond.
Pax,
Truth Unites… and Divides
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Susan,
You said “You may think, “Well, it doesn’t matter much one way of the other now what your understanding of my past condition is.” I would say that it matters a great deal”
I agree wholeheartedly with you. It is of vital importance to me to gain a full understanding of the nature of my salvation in order to help others to hopefully avoid going through the long years of struggle that I did.
From the blog post that I wrote on my blog last night before I read Micheal’s post:
“If my pastor was right, and I was simply suffering from bad theology and various addictions but was in the meantime a Christian after all, then there are a whole lot of people out there who are Christians but are similarly suffering, and suffering needlessly. They have the power of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit available to them right now but are not living up to their potential in the family of God because of bad theology. Conversely, if my pastor was wrong, then there are a whole lot of people out there who think that they are Christians but are lost even now and headed straight for Hell..”
I’ve have complete assurance that I am “In Christ” now because of the miraculous transformation that has occurred in my life. I simply want to gain a full understanding of how it happened and why it happened two years ago instead of seventeen years ago. I am not looking for assurance anymore…I have found that….finally. What I want is now is understanding.
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PIPER PRIDE STOPS JOHN FROM PREACHING …?
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Randy, I think it’s good that you are grappling with this and see the gravity of what might flow from a correct understanding of your past. I do believe that there are many false-converts and self-decieved people within the church. Jesus told the parable of the tares to illustrate this. I think we need to be cautious about assuming that people whom we see every week at church, even those who are ministry involved, are saved. Years ago I was a leader in the high school department at our church. Since then I have observed the ‘falling away’ of at least three of the other leaders who I knew at that time. One guy was planning on becoming a youth pastor at the time. He married one of the girls who lead with us. They had three kids. While she was pregnant with the third he was involved in an affair. He left his wife and never repented, although she remained open to his return for many years.
One of the best ways to assess whether or not you were in Christ (and I’m sure you’ve given much thought to this) is the evidence of ‘fruit’. A good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree bears bad fruit. In my husband’s case I can say as a 21 year first-hand observer, the fruit of the Spirit was absent from his life. Instead, his tendency was to be very angry and unloving. He lacked peace, joy, patience etc.. Since his true conversion, I have seen the fruit of the Spirit developing in his life. What a change from who he used to be! It’s an incredible shot in the arm to see the transforming work of the Spirit in the life of a once hardened person. He had attended church every Sunday with me throughout those years (which will increase the hardening if one is unrepentant) but lived with a self-righteous mindset (comparing himself with others in order to satisfy himself that he was doing OK, rather than seeing how far short he was of God’s standard and recognizing God’s grace). In our marriage this meant he was always attempting to find fault with me.
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I think a person’s psychological make-up has a huge bearing on all this.
For example, I’m a worrier. I’m a thinker. I’m an analyzer. So as a Christian, I would most likely worry about whether I’m saved or if God’s happy with me, etc.
More happy-go-lucky people would feel quite sure of their salvation because that’s their natural bent to do so-to NOT worry, to NOT over-analyze,etc.
The Bible never seems to take these things into consideration. So you have Christians who seem very different from each other. Some love church because they are very social.
Some love to read and study so ofcourse they never miss their devotions. Others hate reading and consider Bible reading a chore.
Yet the pastor would make the non-reader feel guilty. And the reader would feel quite proud of his daily reading.
It’s these things not being taken into account that make the Bible suspect to me.
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CMP,
Listening to some MP3 lectures from Covenant Theological Seminary (www.worldwide-classroom.org) I heard one of the profs say that OSAS as it is commonly understood and taught would be better named “one professed always saved.”
The problem arises due to the fact that not all professions of faith are genuine. Not everyone who walks an aisle and repeats a prayer is truly converted – converted meaning changed, born again, a new creation.
On the other side of the coin, I’ve dealt with people who grew up in Christian homes who had been living faithfully all their lives, who were concerned they weren’t really saved because they couldn’t remember a “crisis moment” of conversion. This type of person needs to understand that it’s not a “sinner’s prayer” that saves them, but faith in Christ and His redemptive work. If they are living a life of faith then they’re “running the race,” even if they can’t recall crossing a starting line.
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Fruit-bearing will occur in the life of all believers because we are attached to the vine, which is Jesus (John 15: 1-5). Those who don’t bear fruit are cut away and ‘thrown into the fire’, because the lack of fruit is the outward evidence that they are not properly attached to the vine (they are not ‘in Christ’ although they might have appeared to be to others). Those participants in the church today who are self-decieved, false-converts are essentially just like the Pharisees of the NT.
Ron, I’ve given some thought to your ‘push-back’, and I think that I overstated the necessity of sorrow or remorse over sin. It’s hard to see that one could repent over sin they felt no conviction over, but that is not to say that we have to be ‘emotional’ in order for true repentance to take place. Incidentally, Judas was remorseful but did not repent. Thanks for your question. I needed to rethink that.
As far as your own questions about your life go, I do think that unrepentant sin in the life a believer can become a crisis of faith. It can cause a believer to have a lot of doubt, and to question all that they have believed. I’m happy to know that you are meeting with your pastor. Being in a place of openly confessing your sin and seeking help is key. Don’t assume you are not saved just because you have not broken down crying over your recent struggle with sin. I too once went through such a period of time as a believer. It became a ‘crisis of faith’ for me. It caused me to realize that to continue on my destructive path I would have to divorce myself from all that I had always believed about God and my relationship with Him. It took quite awhile before I was really crushed over my sin. One morning as I was reading God’s word I suddenly had this picture in my mind of the golden calf (Exodus). At that moment I realized that essentially I was guilty of idolatry. I was very humbled by that realization….and deeply remorseful.
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[...] C. Michael Patton: Why I Don’t Like “Once-Saved-Aways-Saved” I have often said that it is easier to tell when someone is a true Christian than to tell if they are not…Others, however, it is hard to tell. They may say they are saved, but I am not convinced with the same degree of conviction. They may be convinced, but I am not. I am not saying they are not saved, I just don’t know. Some live in a perpetual state of doubt, failure, and terrible sin. They may be in the race, but they are not running. MORE [...]
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