“Watch Dog ministries” that gets to me also! Its crazy…what we need is God’s grace. Thanks for the post…amazing

Actually any knowledge of Heaven and hell cannot come from any natural observation, for these are of the spiritual realm.

Actually what we know of heaven and hell can come from two sources, comparative religion and modern scientific knowledge. The combination of the two suggests that heaven is a realm of fully dynamic electro-magnetic fields, thus far brighter than we have ever experienced, while hell is a realm of totally static electro-magnetic fields, thus colder and darker than we have ever experienced. Plus to try to hold our identity in hell would destroy us due to its nature.

To understand hell, one must first know something of Heaven, for hell is the opposite of Heaven. The fear and misunderstanding of hell comes from the absence of knowing its nature, which opposes Heaven’s nature in every aspect.

In Heaven, we face the Light, while in hell the back is turned to the Lord. All in Heaven are in Good and Truth derived from love to the Lord and to the neighbor, while all who are in hell are in evils and in falsities derived from the loves of self and of the world.

For those seeking truth for truth’s sake itself, may find the following helpful:

http://smallcanonsearch.com/read.php?book=hh&section=536

Hmm. Things I have come to hate about Christianity. I agree with the lack of intellectualism within the church. Luckily this led me to seek out people like C.S. Lewis and G.K.Chesterton to name a few. I couldn’t imagine my life without their work. This also goes for song lyrics. How simple can you get? How many times do we have to repeat the chorus? This is actually kinda freaky because if you’re unsaved it sounds like chanting which in turn sounds a bit brainwash-y.

While we’re at it, as a musician I HATE it when great musicians (namely guitarists) purposely hold back because they’re afraid the more conservative of the congregation may feel they’re showing off. “ARE you showing off?” “No, but…” “Alright then. Melt my freakin’ face. You don’t mind doing it when you’re playing a Van Halen song. You think King David played barre chords?”

These are a few that came to my mind. Thank you for letting me rant…

To William #92.

Like ‘darkness’ which is not an entity by itself but simply absence of light, hell is, sort of, absence of heaven. It’s not a separate entity of human creation. Moreover, hell is not a location or place, when some go after death.

The condition one has to endure (who knows how long) IS one’s own creation. It is going to be hot as like a place burning with sulfur (if one got consumed with hate and anger) or be cold as absolute zero (if one was unconcerned with others and reject aloof).

No one, even God, sends them to ‘hell’; it is the condition that some will get sent because they choose to go. Don’t blame God or blame the Bible for what they bring on their own destiny. The believers are the ones who refuse to go to ‘hell’ and choose instead to go to ‘heaven’.

I buy your notion that (some of) Muslims go to heaven. Yeah so do Buddhists (though they call it nirvana) and atheists. It is like this: Everyone believes God. What matters is which god they believe. What matters here is which heaven they know and are talking about. When all go to heaven, don’t expect to see them there. Their heaven is at the opposite address which is the address of our hell. I remember an ABC news magazine 20/20 ‘Is there heaven’ a few years ago: Barbara Walter gathered up a few different people to talk, such as Dali Lama, a protestant Pastor, a Catholic priest, a Jewish Rabbi (I believe an Islamic imam was there. Not sure of any atheist). Nice try it was as it was entertaining but with no real substance. Everyone talking about ‘heaven’, but no one was actually talking about same thing.

Likewise, here, each of us are talking about ‘hell’ while all may not be talking about same thing. I believe CMP better make another topic ‘what the hell is to each of us’

William,

You said:

“Further, we do not escape hell by mouthing the magic words of “I believe in Jesus” or whatever other similar form you wish, but rather by living the belief that Jesus lived the right way, whether one is aware of living such an expressed belief or not. Thus the devote Muslim or Hindu might live the necessary life and go to heaven while never vocally acknowledging Jesus, while the Christian who professes belief loudly, but fails to live it does not.”

If you are Christian, how do you explain the scripture where Jesus says “No one comes to the Father except through me”, or “It is by grace we are saved through faith, not works, so that no man may boast.”

It sounds as if you are promoting a form of universalism rather than Christianity. I’m wondering how you see the difference.

Also wondering how mere mortal human beings with a limited life span, and who cannot save themselves, would then would be capable of creating an eternal hell.

Just doesn’t compute.

Emily,

As one who firmly supports the concept of “hell” but also agrees that it does not make sense that God “chooses” who goes there, might I suggest that part of the solution is to understand that “hell” is a creation of fallen humanity, not God. I don’t have time to post the physics of such a belief, nor the biblical support, but I believe that humanity created hell when we fell. Further, we do not escape hell by mouthing the magic words of “I believe in Jesus” or whatever other similar form you wish, but rather by living the belief that Jesus lived the right way, whether one is aware of living such an expressed belief or not. Thus the devote Muslim or Hindu might live the necessary life and go to heaven while never vocally acknowledging Jesus, while the Christian who professes belief loudly, but fails to live it does not.

I felt the same way you did about Hell. Knowing that I am saved despite (in spite of, perhaps) the things I do– even the good I attempt– made me question how anyone could be sent to Hell. Simply because my best friends grew up in China, Vietnam or the Middle East?

As someone who has questioned many “traditional” positions of the Church I have to say that I know how hard it can be to question your own religious beliefs, if you think that God is truly behind them. How can I ask a Muslim to just leave behind his faith “because Christianity is better” if he truly and completly is committed to his belief in Islam? To do so would go against his own concience, if he believes that God is truly to be found in Islam.

“I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him” –Small Catechism. Any faith in Christianity I have is only because of God, not because I have reasoned my way there, or because of the “evidence” of Christianity or any such thing. Therefore, I believe that my friend leaving Islam (or atheism, buddhism, ba’hai, ect.) would be because God called them, not because I pushed them.

And yet I can’t believe that God would come to the world and endure the suffering he did only to save the few he might choose to be saved. There is nothing about me that is inherently better or more worthy of God and love and forgiveness than my roommates, my best friends and even those that I really hate. I can’t believe God chooses some to be saved and others not.

What of the parables of the Prodigal Son? Or where Jesus is not happy with the 99 sheep until that last one has been found? Or the constant appeal to love your enemies, pray for those who hurt you and to always forgive? Does God hold us to a higher standard than he has for himself?

I don’t intend the above to be an “appologetic” for Universalism in any way, only to point out the inherent contradiction that an eternal hell throws into…

I agree that you can’t really know if a stranger is “Going to Hell”, as so many embarrassingly tell others, sometines in public venues. The scriptures clearly tell us not to use God’s Word as a “cloak of malice”, but as an encouragement to seek God personally, even intimately. There is a difference between warning someone with a genuine concern, and blasting someone with all kinds of guilt-producing speech, etc.
Also, in both the OT and NT, there are all kinds of encouragements to get wisdom and understanding in all things, which in today’s language can mean to get an education; nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to blindly believe anything someone tells us. In fact, even Jesus Himself said that if His words are the only evidence of who He is, don’t believe Him! But if the prophets and the Holy Spirit testify about Him, then all is well.
Also, when you realize that you are saved by grace, you can relax the attitudes about the sins of others. It’s OK, I think, to just love someone without being offended by their behavior, because true spiritual love will look beyong the surface to the person’s innate value, both to ohters, and to God.
As far as I know, Jesus didn’t mention homosexuality specifically, but He did warn us that we are all in the same boat, and He is the only way to shore!