Eight Things I Hate About Christianity
Most certainly, there are many more things I love about Christianity than what I hate. However, I thought I would spend a bit of time here and open up the conversation in a different direction. These are the top eight things I “hate” about Christianity, in order.
(Oh, and since we have thousands of first-time visitors here everyday, let me be clear…I am a very committed Evangelical Christian.)
8. Unanswered prayer = God’s “no”. Prayer in general is hard. It is hard to keep up with someone whose relationship techniques do not mirror anything we practice on earth. The though-you-do-not-see-him-now-but-believe-in-him” (1 Pet. 1:8) thing is really bizarre. And when it comes to prayer (i.e. talking to God) it culminates in some frustrations. When I pray for something that does not get answered (i.e. my request does not happen), people often say, “that is God’s ways of saying “no” or “not now.” So, in Christianity, God’s ignoring is another way of rejecting a request? I don’t like that. I am not saying it is not true, its just I would prefer something else.
7. Testimonies, BC and AD. No, it is not the testimonies themselves, but the burden of what a testimony must bear. There has to be a former way of life before Christ (BC) and what you have become after Christ (AD). The burden is that in order to have a “great” testimony, pressure is placed upon you to present yourself in a nice and polished way that says, “Look what God has done with me: Can you believe it? You can be like me too.” Testimonies are more valid (not to mention more believable and inspiring) when the “finished product” (the AD) is never really finished at all, but still broken. I don’t like the shallow “now and then” of the Christian testimony format.
6. Watchdog ministries. Watchdog ministries. Lighthouse ministries. Appraisal ministries. They go by many names. They are full-time Christian snipers. Let me back up. There are certain ministries that exist to find and expose false teaching. I have no problem with exposing false teaching. Indeed, it is part of what we are to do as teachers…correct false doctrine. However, it is very rare to find a ministry or a person who does this well. Most of the ministries and people who do this are arrogant, ungracious, and counter-productive and themselves need to be exposed. I have worked for one of these ministries (a long time ago). After a while, the ministry becomes obsessed, concerning itself with nothing else other than beating someone up in the name of the Lord. When there is no controversy, like a drug addict in withdrawals, they begin to create controversy ex nihilo or go back to dead horses and kick them. Their goal soon loses the priority of truth, learning, and understanding. I think that many people would have nothing to talk about if there was not someone to kick.
5. Seeker-driven Churchianity. (“Churchianity: a term a took from my friend Michael Spencer). That’s not really the best way to put it. A better way might be “compromised Christianity.” The reason why it is often called “seeker churchianity” is based on its primary desire to fulfill the “Great Commission” through reaching the lost. But there is a line crossed. I cannot always tell you where it is, but I will go out on a limb here and say that the majority of Evangelical Churches today have crossed that line a long time ago. I carry I poker chip in my pocket. Written on it are the words “Leaving Lust Vegas.” It was taken from a church that was doing a sermon series about lust and decided to use a modern Hollywood and Las Vegas theme to communicate their message. I can’t imagine how much it cost to have these chips made (not to mention how little practical effect they really have). I also have a flier from a sermon series called, “Girls Gone Wild, Bible Style.” This was from a different church who was attempting to reach its audience in a relevant way. I understand why they do this and even admire their intentions. However, I hate it when the Church so much wants to reach the world that one can hardly tell the difference between the culture of the Church and the culture of Hollywood. The church is different and we should do things a particular way. Wal-Mart is different. Disney World is different. The movie theater is different. Fraternities at the University of Oklahoma are different. Congress is different. Just because one is different does not mean they cannot be relevant in accomplishing that which their purpose demands. Why is the church so scared of being different?
4. Christian subculture. I understand that in every discipline, career, or fellowship, there is going to be a unique vocabulary and way to communicate. I make a living teaching theology, a discipline in which people have to learn a new technical language if they expect engage in an effective way. Therefore, I have no problem with communication barriers that need to be overcome. As well, I understand that each culture has its own unique ways of life including family matters, music, education, entertainment, and the like. Therefore, I don’t have any problem with cultural barriers. However, in Christianity, I find that most Christians (especially Evangelical Christians) feel pressured to enter and live within a subculture which, in-and-of-itself, does not necessarily represent Christianity, but becomes the primary avenue through which those on the outside view the Church. The problem is that Christianity is not a culture or a sub-culture (a culture within a culture). Christianity is a belief and a relationship with God that expresses itself in very adaptive ways, with the ability to see the image of God in may cultural expressions that are not unique only to Christians. “Christian” music, education, fiction novels, language, sports, bumper stickers, t-shirts and the like often serve a purpose to distance Christianity from those whom we are ambassadors to and obscures our message. That is why I hate the Christian subculture.
3. Legalism. All religions breed legalism, but Christianity is a religion founded on grace. Legalism cancels out grace. Therefore, legalism cancels out Christianity. Ironically, Christianity has so many legalists. Legalism is essentially an attitude shared by many Christians (especially the immature) that exists to make people feel more in control and comfortable. It is a list of dos and don’ts that one has to follow to be accepted. However, Christianity only exists because God was not legalistic with us. We broke all his rules and he stooped to forgive us. He continues to stoop to forgive us. Legalists, ironically, will not stoop. I hate legalistic Christianity, especially since I can be the primary representative of this legalistic mutation.
2. Anti-intellectual mentality. I was reading a Christian author earlier today who said that the number one thing he hates about Christianity is that “there is no evidence for what we believe.” He goes on to define this as “faith.” I hate that a Christian could ever make such a statement with a straight face. If what he said is true, it is tragic. If there is no evidence for Christianity, I am leaving (quietly, out the back door). I hate that our current Christian culture has so far distanced the intellect from faith that a belief that there is no evidence for Christianity is assumed. I don’t hate it simply because I am embarrassed by it (which I am), but because it is not true and gives so much ammunition to those who reject Christianity. I hate the lack of the mind in the Christian church today.
1. Hell. This is hands down the most difficult doctrine in the Christian faith. We believe in a loving God who sees fit to allow his creation (his children) to suffer in a place we call hell—a place, by the way, that affords more suffering than anything imaginable. A place, by the way, that is never-ending. It is not as though I don’t believe it. I do. It is not as though I look at God in judgment. I don’t. It is simply something that confuses me. While I completely disagree with any form of “Christian” universalism (i.e. all people are going to make it to heaven), second-chance theories (i.e. unbelievers will experience a second chance to escape hell in the after life), or the idea of annihilationalism (i.e. the belief that hell, along with all its inhabitants, will eventually be annihilated forever), I understand and sympathize with the reason why they go in this direction. If I could find some sort of loop-hole to get out of believing in the doctrine of an eternal hell, I would. If there was such a thing as a Christianity that did not necessitate a belief in hell, I would submit my resume. (And believe me, I have tried). Oh, closely connected to this are the cliché answers Christians give about hell. Many Christians I have encountered act as if hell does not bother them in the least. Of all the things you can be cliché about, don’t be so here.
What about you?
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- Does Christian Activism Actually Encourage Immorality?
- Needs of Reclaiming the Mind Update
- A Word About Hell
- How bad can a Christian’s theology be?
- The Premature Funeral of the “L” Word
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davidbmc on 15 Mar 2010 at 7:37 pm #
I hate you michael patton. hate you hate you hate you.
you are one reason i gave up my strictly christian blog. what’s the point when you do it so well here.
dm
Josh on 15 Mar 2010 at 7:52 pm #
I’ll admit, I am a Christian of the immature variety. Only recently have I become a Christian.
With that said, I’m still having trouble coming to terms with legalism vs. “faith that produces good works.” I understand that one cannot do good things and get a ticket into Heaven. We are only able to enter into the presence of God because of the grace of Jesus Christ.
However, the book of James (and 1 John leans in this direction, and I’m sure it’s all over the Bible as well) says that one who has faith will produce good works. So you don’t have to do good things to get into Heaven, but in order to have an assurance of salvation, you should know that you’re doing good things.
Do I have that right? Obviously I want to do good things. And despite your testimony comment, I want to do good things more now than when I wasn’t a Christian! But this could still spiral into the same “legalistic” type thinking: am I doing enough to know that I have “real faith?” What if I’m just fooling myself and at the end of my life, I’ll learn that I never had “true faith” to begin with?
You see the confusion?
Stephen Collins on 15 Mar 2010 at 8:16 pm #
Don’t worry, Michael Patton. I still love you. Just, you know, not in that way.
John English on 15 Mar 2010 at 8:37 pm #
When you said “Why is the church so scared of being different.” I thought this – how is it that we so embrace fear when God so often tells us not to be afraid? I is really puzzling. I know that I really don’t want to tell someone the wrong thing about God perhaps to the point of fear.
Maybe the Church, though seriously wants to gain believers and sees getting along as the way to get this done.
I read an article in Christian Post that said the fastest growing group of Christians in the young adult range is the Eastern Orthodox Church and they are different, and apparently the young, at least, are looking for what they have to offer. Yet it is Christian and evangelical and liturgical at the same time.
The Episcopal Church could offer much of the same, but seems to have decided to mold its self after the society and is reducing in size.
Numbers aren’t everything, but it is important to reach everyone. This is an interesting question.
Mike the Mad Theologian on 15 Mar 2010 at 9:00 pm #
One thing I see in a lot though certainly not all of the things you hate is a tendency to depend on ourselves rather then God. Whether its legalism or watchdog behavior or an reliance on relevance or hiding in our own subculture to protect ourselves all of these put the focus on our behavior rather God’s grace and power.
Lisa Robinson on 15 Mar 2010 at 9:04 pm #
Josh,
I read James that same way for many years. However, what James is really getting at is that genuine faith will produce good works rather than we must do good works as a demonstration of faith. That seems to be a subtle difference but it is significant in terms of the source of the works. Genuine faith is sourced in God, then our works follow not as a result of self effort but as a result of response to an inward renewal. Good works are sourced in us to show that we can do things God’s way. This ultimately results in legalism. Does that make sense?
Gary Simmons on 15 Mar 2010 at 9:05 pm #
Ugh. I am with you, especially on your number two. 62 people claimed to be Messiah. They all had large cult followings, claimed to do miracles, and all 62 were killed by the Romans. 61 of those religions died when their founders did. Only one did not. That’s us.
joanne on 15 Mar 2010 at 9:23 pm #
I’m convinced that the draw to Eastern Orthodox-sm is dual: it is intensely spiritual, and it is intensely experiential, two things that are often gapingly missing from other forms of Christianity.
The added fascination of ancient organically interwoven with now is as exotic and compelling as quantum physics, where the universe has an endpoint and all that is was determined by that endpoint yet in our future, so that we are all connected, reticulating splines, from the past to the future. Wouldn’t you want to part of that? The supernatural makes the paranormal seem pretty hohum in comparison.
I guess what I’ve grown tired of in our current iteration of Christianity is the endless theology arguments tha can only be won by the person with the biggest words and the most pristine Greek logic. Every time I see the accusation of “eisegesis” these days I have an immediate physical reaction of immense weariness. I can’t read another word. “Heresy” is another favorite.
Studying John 17 this week and I am struck by what Jesus thought was really, really important. With only hours left before the cross He prayed about glory, love and unity. Anybody seen that around here, lately, in American evangelicalism?
I’ve also grown tired of the church competitions, advertizing and outdoing each other like cereal brands in the grocery store. It takes an awful lot of money, time and energy to keep that going, and….I guess I am wondering why we’re willing to keep all this up. Institutions have their benefits, I will be the first to agree. But there comes a point when we worship and glorify the denomination / catechism / church / pastor and forget that it is our Lord Jesus Christ Who is King, we His body, and all the world are meeting place.
thanks for listening
Brad on 15 Mar 2010 at 11:39 pm #
As for the whole “saved by grace…but you still need to do good works” thing, I will admit i’m often confused by it to.
The illustration I always like is the idea of the tree that bears good fruit. The point is not that “you’re the tree, the fruit is your good works. Your tree needs to make good fruit or you’re getting chopped down”. But you need to realize- trees don’t TRY to produce fruit. There is no willpower to determine whether or not a tree bears fruit. However, a well planted, well cared for tree will automatically produce good fruit, merely as a reaction, not as a decision.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 16 Mar 2010 at 12:02 am #
What about you?
In no particular order:
Errantists
Egalitarians
Evolution – Theistic
Wow. Seems like a lot of LibProts and Emergers subscribe to one or more of those listed above.
Michael T. on 16 Mar 2010 at 12:21 am #
/begin sarcasm
In no particular order
Inerrantists
Complementarians
Young Earthers
/end sarcasm
Stephen on 16 Mar 2010 at 12:36 am #
I’m a Christian, but I’m plagued by intense doubts, so this is good chance for me to vent.
1. The way the Bible was written- why the heck did God allow so many apparent (not necessarily actual) errors/contradictions in His holy book? Why didn’t he make the doctrines clearer, if doctrine is so important?
2. The complication of the theology debates. Some will say it isn’t complicated, but I simply can’t agree. Totally stuck in the catholic-protestant divide, and it bothers me.
3. Building off the the last two… hell as a consequence for incorrect doctrine. Makes it feel impossible to actually know whether I’m forgiven or not.
bethyada on 16 Mar 2010 at 3:59 am #
Okay, so I was expecting a list of difficult things within Christian truth, but it is predominantly issues about how Church often but doesn’t have to work. #1 and #8 you will have to deal with, but the other 6 can theoretically be removed from the church, or modified to a correct expression.
bethyada on 16 Mar 2010 at 4:17 am #
Stephen I’m a Christian, but I’m plagued by intense doubts, so this is good chance for me to vent.
This can be okay, you seem to have some insight. Ask questions and keep asking.
1. The way the Bible was written- why the heck did God allow so many apparent (not necessarily actual) errors/contradictions in His holy book? Why didn’t he make the doctrines clearer, if doctrine is so important?
Main answer. Because he used people. The desire for God to involve his creatures in his purposes is frankly amazing.
But 3 other comments: 1. the apparent contradictions are not as many as some would suggest, I think the sceptical tend to exaggerate; 2. this leads us to search the Scriptures harder and can greater insight into the ways of God; 3. It gives enough room for belief for those who desire God and enough room for disbelief for those who would mock him.
2. The complication of the theology debates. Some will say it isn’t complicated, but I simply can’t agree. Totally stuck in the catholic-protestant divide, and it bothers me.
We are trying to gain understanding about God here! It is not going to be simple. But the basics are not that hard. Love God, love your neighbour, love justice and mercy and goodness and right behaviour. The Nicean creed is agreed to by pretty much all Christians and it is not too long.
I think the Protestants are closer to the truth, but there are many Catholics who are going to heaven and many Protestants who are not. Find people who love Jesus, Catholic or Protestant or both, and be encouraged by them; and read the Bible.
3. Building off the the last two… hell as a consequence for incorrect doctrine. Makes it feel impossible to actually know whether I’m forgiven or not.
Unlikely. Right doctrine is good and important, but it does not get us into heaven. Following Jesus is the way to heaven.
Josh on 16 Mar 2010 at 5:01 am #
Lisa: Thanks. That does make sense.
Brad: But what does that mean for however many Christians who feel like they have to try to do good things? They might be lazy, envious, angry, apathetic, etc. and don’t want to work at a soup kitchen, donate money, comfort the mourning, build a well in Africa, teach Sunday school to little kids, etc. etc.? What if all that feels like effort to them? Should they be concerned for their faith?
That’s what I was getting at.
Bob Spencer on 16 Mar 2010 at 5:14 am #
In answer to your question, “What about you?”
http://intheclearing.blogspot.com/2010/03/christian-positive-thinking.html
Dale on 16 Mar 2010 at 5:18 am #
In my experience #4 feeds #3. Adherence to Christian culture is the sign to others about how Christ like and pious one is.
Eric S. Mueller on 16 Mar 2010 at 6:45 am #
I hate the whole “God’s will” thing. Some people talk as if every single moment of your life is planned out by God and directed by God. It’s starting to seem to me that God turns us loose with His book and lets us make at least some of our own decisions. But the line between which ones we make and which ones God handles is confusing to me.
I’m not a fan of the well meaning but completely untrue “I guess God needed another angel” comment that people give to families grieving the loss of a child.
I also hate how believers, who are supposed to bear each other’s burdens, will ask each other how they are doing on Sunday morning. They don’t ask because they care. They just ask because it’s polite. Even if you’re not doing well, they won’t take a second out of their own lives to come alongside and offer assistance.
Michael, I agree with you on the sniper ministry comment. It doesn’t make sense to me that some ministries seem to exist for no reason other than to sling mud at other ministries.
jim on 16 Mar 2010 at 7:14 am #
Eric S. I agree, Is God meticously sovereign in everything we do or do we have some sort of free will. I lean toward free will but certainly understand that God is in control but allows things to happen in our lives. People spend so much time searchng for his will in our lives when scripture is clear that we are to love, obey and spread the news about our Saviour in all aspects of our life, so why get so difinitive.
My second hated aspect of Christianity is whether or not Prayer changes God’s mind………..or is prayer really just for US….our benefit …..doesn’t change the outcome. I pray as we are told bibically to do…..I just don’t always see corelation to answers which I guess is a mystery though probably not to God.
Lastly, CMP and this blog site, My wife is getting Jealous….with all the time I spend here. (LOL)
Oh Yea! Lisa Robinson: I hate having to repeat to myself” That’s what I was trying to say after reading her comments.
Blessings:
Lisa Robinson on 16 Mar 2010 at 7:20 am #
“Oh Yea! Lisa Robinson: I hate having to repeat to myself” That’s what I was trying to say after reading her comments.”
Jim, can you clarify? I’m confused.
jim on 16 Mar 2010 at 7:29 am #
Did I say Lastly, I mean it now:(really)
Jesus Christ , superstar (the movie)
My wife saw it at a theatre so went out and rented it to watch at home…(I must become more of a complementarim)
Brendt Waters on 16 Mar 2010 at 8:03 am #
Michael, you’re gonna get your glutes “discerned” for #6.
Sam on 16 Mar 2010 at 8:45 am #
Hey Michael… aren’t #4 and #5 a bit contradictory? we need to be different, but we need to look like the world…? perhaps #4 should be about “artificiality”..? or external trappings..? what do you think?
Dave on 16 Mar 2010 at 8:48 am #
1. Fideistic, rationalistic or postmodern theology (This could probably fall under number two).
2. Culture-driven Christianity. How some evangelicals grovel at the feet of celebrities such as John and Kate Gosselin, Carrie Prejean, that guy from Korn who just wrote a book, Stephen Baldwin, Mel Gibson and Bono etc.
Intellectually this includes those who bow before the “secular” academy in humble surrender as the ultimate authority. That is the fascination by some to integrate ideas that are totally alien to the Christian worldview with Christianity. We’re really cool (and smart) when we don’t make any appeal to God’s revelation in apologetics or interpret God’s revelation according to alien frameworks built on autonomous (and irrational) assumptions. The idea seems to be that the argument that carries more weight is one built on “secular” assumptions. “The fear of the Culture is the beginning of wisdom.”
3. My own fear and failure when it comes to evangelizing and defending the faith.
4. Process theology
5. Church names that include words like “Porch”
6. Anti-intellectualism: When Christians call themselves Christians, but show no evidence whatsoever of submission to Christ’s lordship. That is they have no desire to grow in the Knowledge of God, learn to articulate their worldview to others, or have the slightest idea as to why it’s true.
7. Fundamentalist isolation
8. Blogs that talk about what they hate about Christianity . . .wait
9. Cheesy hymns from the 1920s to 1940s
jim on 16 Mar 2010 at 9:12 am #
Lisa: Sorry!! I simply meant that you always give clear thought and word in your posts, You always say what I want to say but I seem to be not so clear!! Such as you not understanding my last comment (LOL) ……
You write well and I enjoy your dialogue on the many things we discuss on this site!!! Thanks
Don Maurer on 16 Mar 2010 at 9:54 am #
“This is hands down the most difficult doctrine in the Christian faith…. If I could find some sort of loop-hole to get out of believing in the doctrine of an eternal hell, I would. If there was such a thing as a Christianity that did not necessitate a belief in hell, I would submit my resume.”
I am aware that I have cut out the parts of your statement in which you recognize that hell is an exegetical fact. Thank you for including those statement. I think you are being very introspective in thinkin you do not like your thoughts about hell. However, you seem to be suggesting (correct me if I am reading you wrong) that while you believe in hell, that doctrine is not where your heart lies.
I am not one that will not be sympathetic with you on your feelings. I appreciate what is in your head, but not what you feel. The distance between my sin and the holiness of God is something I feel. I feel the fear and reverence for the sovereignty of God. I feel Gods holiness. As RCSproul said, Gods holiness is the only attribute mentioned in triplicate in the scripture. He is “holy holy holy,” but nowhere is he “love love love.” I know that God loves me, but I do feel everyone should have an equal chance to be loved by God. I feel no one deserves that love at all. I does not amaze me that God hated Esau, but that God loves Jacob. I dont see any faults in God even if he were to send all to hell.
Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Mark on 16 Mar 2010 at 9:59 am #
Josh,
I’m also new to Christianity and the thing that I have had to do is ask God for a heart of servant hood and remove the sense of obligation that comes from a heart of servitude. I think Matt Chandler said it well when he stated that (and I’m paraphrasing),
” Our growing knowledge of God will produce good works but good works do not bring us into a right relationship with God”. Basically good works are the product of knowing Him and spending time in His Word and reading books than increase your knowledge of who he is.
Susan on 16 Mar 2010 at 11:03 am #
Josh, “But what does that mean for however many Christians who feel like they have to try to do good things? They might be lazy, envious, angry, apathetic, etc. and don’t want to work at a soup kitchen, donate money, comfort the mourning, build a well in Africa, teach Sunday school to little kids, etc. etc.? What if all that feels like effort to them? Should they be concerned for their faith?”
My thought would be that you shouldn’t worry about that now. Don’t force yourself to do these things. Making yourself do them isn’t going to bring the assurance of salvation you are perhaps hoping for. Take a look instead at the fruit of the Spirit in Gal. 5: 22-23 : love, joy, peace, patience (long-suffering), kindness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control. These are qualities, or fruit, that God works in us….not that we work in ourselves. If one is a true convert then God’s indwelling Holy Spirit begins a work of sanctification from the inside out. The fruit of the Spirit does not come about in one’s life by self-effort….nor should you expect to be ‘accomplished’ in these things on short-order. As Lisa has said, the good thing to do is to focus on getting to know Jesus. Cultivate a love for God’s Word; spend time there.
While it is true that a believer will bear good fruit, and a non-convert will bear bad fruit, be careful about thinking that if you, or someone else, is not teaching SS or giving to the poor (and doesn’t really desire to do so)…such a person (or yourself) might not be saved. Relax about that! Invest in your relationship with the Lord. Talk to Him a lot, listen, by reading His word, and you will see Him working the fruit of the Spirit into your life. Be encouraged by that! And someday you might find yourself having a strong desire to serve God outwardly in some way, or really caring about some hurting person you know. Don’t force the works. Ask God to change your heart to desire what He desires for you.
Dan on 16 Mar 2010 at 11:36 am #
#s 2 and 5 Michael are spot on! I truly hate it when those who have an intellectual basis of understanding, i.e. they have been trained, deny or lessen that understanding to pander to the “culture, for the sake of appealing to a certain demographic. To me it it seems when this happens we are saying ” the ideas and understandings of Christianity are so complex and difficult for you to understand, that we are going to ignore them for the sake of getting you in the door. THEN we will have a chance to “get you saved.”
We in evangelical churches it seems struggle to portray the truth of the doctrines we claim, to those who we are attempting to reach. Its almost as if we are embarrassed and afraid that they may not come back unless we dumb down what we know and present it in a way that they will say, “hey THATS what IM talking about! and want to return next Sunday. Why, instead of dumbing down our message to appeal, do we not raise the expectation. The message of grace and truth appeals and the doctrines of our belief appeal. Yet I am sad that we continue to reach for the low understanding rather than raise to the higher.
Josh on 16 Mar 2010 at 11:51 am #
Susan: Thank you! That makes such wonderful sense.
R.Guyton on 16 Mar 2010 at 11:52 am #
That the main message of the Bible, ie: salvation through Jesus Christ alone, gets all but forgotten in the things we hate or love about “Christianity”.
The separation of the masses by giving ourselves a name different from anyone else. Can’t we just spread the Good News about Christ without all the mess of other stuff. I get the whole understanding God’s Word and have a personal passion for the deep study, but the message of the Atonement is the reason, period. We need to keep that in the forfront. God is able and willing to do the rest for us poor inept souls that think we have anything to do after accepting Him. I know all you Calvanist/Armenians out there, just forget commenting I already know all the arguments. Thanks.
Jeremy on 16 Mar 2010 at 11:59 am #
Great post Michael…now if I can just get my hands on this “girls gone wild bible study” ahaha…oh man some churches just don’t know when to stop.
Rick on 16 Mar 2010 at 12:52 pm #
I have difficulty with those who constantly/regularly preach (usually in a series) on “How to be a better….(parent, spouse, steward, etc…).” They seem to leave out the centrality of the gospel, overlook deeper theological truths, and focus in on only one or two applications.
It eventually becomes a form of “Moralistic Therapeutic Deism”.
Brian Roden on 16 Mar 2010 at 2:23 pm #
On #2, anyone who claims there isn’t any evidence for what we believe needs to read some good British authors like C.S. and N.T.
liZard on 16 Mar 2010 at 2:25 pm #
I read this blog almost every day and very rarely say something, but with this post you have hit a nerve. Number 1 is something I have struggled with since I first became a christian 10 years ago. My whole faith and understanding of God (or, more accurately, my ability to love God) is severely shaken every time this issue comes to mind. I’ve tried picturing God as “holyholyholy” and thus free to do whatever he pleases (and it would be Good just because He does it) but I just can’t wrap my mind around it. Are we depraved? Sure. But God isn’t. To me, forgiveness, not punishment, is the ultimate demonstration of his holiness. Furthermore, it seems bizarre that I, a mere human portal of God’s love, would feel such repulsion at the thought of hell but He, having infinitely more love, would allow it to exist. It’s one thing when we think of serial killers, rapists, tyrants. But a whole different story when I think of my grandmother, who as an atheist demonstrates more love and has more of a servant’s heart than any christian I know. The concept of a God who would allow her to suffer eternal punishment because of her unbelief is….unfathomable. it fills me with mind-numbing hatred and fear. Terror, that this is the sort of entity running our universe. It just seems so different from the God I know. The one who wants us to take care of orphans and widows and love the unlovable.
Pardon the rant. In short, I agree with number 1, except that I can no longer believe in Hell as such (eternal punishment for all who don’t believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God) and continue to love God. I am at an impasse.
Stephen on 16 Mar 2010 at 2:44 pm #
Bethyada,
I appreciate your points. I would agree entirely with your response to #1, and some aspects of #2.
However, when you responded to my third point you said…
“Right doctrine is good and important, but it does not get us into heaven. Following Jesus is the way to heaven.”
I believe that in a sense… and wish I could more adamantly affirm it, but details get in the way. When you say “right doctrine is good and important, but it does not get us into heaven”, that is a doctrinal judgment in itself, which must be defended just like other doctrinal judgments. At which point we are back to my 2nd point about the difficulty of theological debates.
In addition, almost every Christian I know of would say that certain doctrines (the deity of Christ, His physical incarnation, death, and resurrection, for example) are absolutely necessary to a relationship with the “real Jesus”. If I decided to follow Jesus as a Mormon or Jehovah’s witness, many Christians would say I’m on a path to hell (since they deny the Trinity). Others would add Catholicism and many versions of Protestantism to that list. They may say that I will begin to accept right doctrine if I’m truly saved, rather than say that I need right doctrine TO be saved, but the practical result is the same.
The point is that saying “just follow Jesus” is loaded with unsaid doctrinal judgments, and thus doesn’t get around the difficulty of doctrinal debates, their importance to the state of my soul, or the fear of hell that these two previous points bring out.
lynn on 16 Mar 2010 at 3:23 pm #
There’s no such thing as hell. Feel better.
warren on 16 Mar 2010 at 3:52 pm #
On your #2, anyone who thinks there are no “reasons” for Christianity must not have read Paul’s trip to Thessalonica and Athens recently: “And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures” “So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.” [Acts 17:2,17]
Logic and reason are intertwined and spread throughout the Bible.
warren on 16 Mar 2010 at 3:58 pm #
I’d also venture to address your item #1: Hell.
Specifically, Hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels because they rebelled against God. It was designed to punish beings for whom there would never be a chance of redemption.
When we, through Adam, rebelled against God by eating form the tree we were told not to, should there not have been punishment for us as well? There was a very simple consequence given by God to Adam: eat and you shall die.
He ate, he introduced death to creation. Yes, God *did* have a plan of salvation available from before the creation knowing that His perfect creation would not remain such, but if the law was broken, the consequences should be paid.
warren on 16 Mar 2010 at 4:01 pm #
Lastly, your point #7: testimonies.
When I was younger, I used to envy folks who had been radically converted from gross sin to faith in Jesus. *THEY* had a story. *THEY* could really show forth God’s love, grace, and mercy.
But when I was converted, I realized that a) I had done things just as bad (just less public), and b) because I *DIDN’T* have those “major” sins in my past, I didn’t have to suffer the consequences of those specifically.
God’s grace, love, and mercy is just as faithfully shown in saving a “church kid” as it is in rescuing a Hitler.
Jim W. on 16 Mar 2010 at 4:40 pm #
#1 is definitely the hardest for me, too.
liZard, I understand where you are and feel similar. That said, I know I’m fallible in my own reasoning and I trust God’s character, so I accept Hell as not only real but “necessary”. I hope and pray you will be able to get beyond your impasse and accept the clear teaching of scripture.
Don Maurer, I think I get what you are saying, though the wording seemed a little unclear so forgive me if I get it wrong. My experience with my own sinfulness alternately makes me a) want to excuse/hide it b) fall on my knees in gratitude to God. I’ve never had it lead me to “feel” Hell as right or proper even though I understand (at least I think I do) it to be so.
GoldCityDance on 16 Mar 2010 at 5:56 pm #
Josh wrote: With that said, I’m still having trouble coming to terms with legalism vs. “faith that produces good works.”
I think the primary difference between legalism and sanctification is the attitude as well as the motivation behind the works. The former is man-centered; the latter is God-centered.
Legalists want to perform good deeds so that they can feel good about themselves, especially after comparing themselves to other “less holy” Christians around them. Hence the focus is on an outward appearance of holiness. Consequently, legalists love to create new rules which are hard to follow and have little to do with loving God and loving our neighbors. Legalists spend most of their time judging others in the church, rather than examining their own works to see if their faith is real. You will notice that the legalists’ motivation for doing good actually has little to do with God.
On the other hand, Christians who are in the process of sanctification seek to perform good works because they WANT to love God and love others. For such Christians, the transformation to become like Christ is as much inwardly as it is outwardly. Sanctifying Christians do not seek to exhibit their religiosity publicly and do not itch to be known. When such Christians judge other Christians, the motivation isn’t to feel good about themselves. Rather, the intent is to build up the church as a community of saints, helping one another to become more like Christ.
Also, legalists are PROUD of their good works. Sanctifying Christians continually mourn their wretched sinfulness and do not think much of their good works.
I would say it is the nature of sinners to be legalists. Until we appear in our glorified bodies, none of us are entirely free of having a legalistic mindset. Our hearts can be very deceitful. It is part of the process of sanctification to learn to discern our true motivations – when are we being legalistic and when are we truly seeking to love Christ our Lord.
8 Things I hate About Christianity, Condensed | Athanatos Christian Apologetics Ministry on 16 Mar 2010 at 8:04 pm #
[...] just read a very fine blog entry from a person detailing 8 things he hates about Christianity. I thought I would follow [...]
Richard on 16 Mar 2010 at 8:09 pm #
Michael P. …And Y’all,
I’m a bit at a loss for words (despite appearances
, partly because during the past week I’ve had to deal with the death of one person, the slow dying from cancer of two other friends, questions from non-believers about hell, a “proud Deist” who refuses Christ but puts most Christians I know (including myself) to shame by her selfless loving and giving, and, to top it all off, I’ve had to “cringe” around wonderful Christian friends who would, very unfortunately, only pretend to agree with your post here, Michael. I’m not exactly sure how to proceed, because I don’t want any misunderstandings or hurt feelings, but…here goes: 1. I agree with every word you’ve written in this article, Michael; 2. I don’t understand why an honest Christian (Yes, I said “honest Christian” on purpose) would not understand and agree with you–perhaps with the exception of a “younger” Christian like Josh (and BTW, thanks for your candidness, Josh! Appreciated and very important!). 3. My harshest (hopefully not arrogant) comment/question: Can any one of you who has posted a disagreement with this article (fortunately still your freedom!) really, really–honestly–pass through your day tomorrow without thinking that, perhaps, you’ve rationalized away ideas that you don’t want to accept, because you think they are “wrong thoughts”, thoughts that God might “get you for”? Again, I know this sounds somewhat condescending. Apologies! But really, really and truly, truly the reality of real life that the personal and loving “I Am” created is mostly wonderful and beautiful, hopeful and faith inspiring…and evil beyond most of our experience. But–BUT–God thinks this is best! Go figure–as long as you first consult Job, Jonah and Judas first. I’m just say’n….
pleximus on 16 Mar 2010 at 8:45 pm #
its all GOD… if there is one…. so whatever
Truth Unites... and Divides on 16 Mar 2010 at 9:22 pm #
Eight Things I Hate About Christianity
I hate people who hate things about Christianity.
Ron on 16 Mar 2010 at 9:36 pm #
Ditto to number one. After 11 years in the faith my revulsion to the idea has only grown stronger. I think the biblical case for annihilationism is quite good– but the consequences of being wrong about this when speaking to others prevents me from fully embracing the view.
Oh, in before the watchbloggers flood the comments
mbaker on 16 Mar 2010 at 10:11 pm #
TUAD says:
“Eight Things I Hate About Christianity
I hate people who hate things about Christianity”
Then you must hate CMP. This is, after all, his post! I thought we were supposed to hate that which came against Christ, not the people themselves.
Minnow on 17 Mar 2010 at 12:38 am #
Well, one of the things that frustrate me most are doctrines that paint God’s character as being bipolar at best and sadomasochistic at worst, such as the traditional hell doctrine.
jim on 17 Mar 2010 at 7:03 am #
LiZard:
Thanks for your honesty! I too have loved ones (Mother & Father) who passed when I was 6 years old & raised in the United Church (salvation unknown) I live each day in denial of Hell, the thought of them perhaps being eternally punished I give bibical consent to but not my heart and soul. Try thinking about that every day and continue to find Joy in any human pleasure. There are worst things than death.
Having said this, I do believe that I struggle worshiping that side of God who would set this up as part of his plan. Except, maybe he has to!!!
Perhaps his character which is sooo holy or at least some attribute of himself demands a separation of the wheat and chaff.
I agree that the problem for me too lies in the idea that separation from God is not enough but he would knowingly cause pain and suffering eternally with no possible conclusion or outcome except the eternal torment. As one writer stated, maybe it’s just our feeble minds or our concept of Love in human standards that is causing this struggle from within. We are sin marred humans.
In him,
The Culture War is Over and We Lost? So… guerrilla warfare… | Athanatos Christian Apologetics Ministry on 17 Mar 2010 at 10:52 am #
[...] said that the Church could use this ‘hard break’ as well. Yesterday I read a post that was pretty good but reflected some sentiments I don’t agree with that were implied about [...]
Tom D on 17 Mar 2010 at 11:57 am #
Josh,
Sorry, I tuned in late. James describes what your faith looks like acted out in the world, Paul describes it as it looks in Heaven.
Regarding the guttermost to uttermost portion of Michael’s blog, (I are one) after you have been a believer for a long time, you’ll realize he’s right, because you’ll still be battling your flesh every day, and like Paul and Tom D, will not have yet “arrived”
The more you understand about God and his Word the more it will reveal your nature to you. Don’t lose heart though, keep chasing the carrot, it’s worth it.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 18 Mar 2010 at 1:37 am #
CMP: “There are certain ministries that exist to find and expose false teaching. I have no problem with exposing false teaching. Indeed, it is part of what we are to do as teachers…correct false doctrine.”
In agreement with CMP, there is this recent article titled: “Discernment Ministry: A Biblical Defense.”
bethyada on 18 Mar 2010 at 3:02 am #
Stephen, Point taken about my comment being a doctrinal position. But I think that God is able to bring people closer to his truth if they seek to follow him, so that however far away they start, over time the honest follower will tend toward true doctrine, whatever that may be.
ODM exposed : Apologetik.dk on 18 Mar 2010 at 11:41 pm #
[...] jeg i nogle af disse forhold oplever et personligt ansvar. Jeg er så absolut ikke alene om dette. Michael C. Patton fra Reclaiming The Mind siger således i et indlæg om 8 ting han heder ved kristendommen: “Watchdog ministries. [...]
Pax2 on 19 Mar 2010 at 11:46 am #
“Leaving Lust Vegas.” Ha! My personal favorite:
“There’s Something About the Virgin Mary.”
P
A Character Issue #2 « Minnowspeaks Weblog on 20 Mar 2010 at 3:02 am #
[...] some old territory on this blog. Over on Parchment and Pen CMP has written a post entitled “Eight Things I Hate about Christianity“. In it he lists the number 1 thing he hates as the doctrine of Hell. I too HATE this [...]
Keith Brenton on 20 Mar 2010 at 8:47 pm #
I believe there’s good reason to hate hell. It wasn’t created for us; it was created for the devil and his angels … the one ultimately responsible for all the sin and death and associated misery in this world. For them, it should last forever. For us temporal beings, I’m not so sure.
So I’ve had to come to agree with the annihilation view. (Sorry. I know you disagree.) Scripture teaches that the place lasts forever. The punishment – eternal death – lasts forever. But people don’t last forever there. God gives immortality as the free gift of His grace through Christ, and destroys with a fire that consumes those who hate Him and others and do everything possible in their lives to glorify self; to perpetuate sin and death and misery just like the devil and his angels.
And I don’t believe hell is a place that God sends people to lightly, even for the moment of flashing extermination that it takes to protect his children from the evil of those who absolutely would not consent to be His children.
Wolf Paul on 21 Mar 2010 at 1:14 am #
On Testimonies, BC and AD:
Here is a slightly humourous story on that subject I heard while a Bible School student in France:
There was this American missionary who had just finished language school and now, for the first time, was called upon to give his testimony in French.
True to the pattern which Michael describes he wanted to talk about his life before Christ and how it had changed since, and as he prepared he tried to remember the French for “past”, which he, not entirely without reason, thought might be “arriere”. What he wanted to say was, “My past can be seen divided in two parts, before Christ, and since I met Christ.”
When he actually got to the point of giving his testimony however, he got muddled about his French vocabulary, and used the word “derriere” instead: “Mon derriere est divise en deux parties …”
His audience just about cracked up at his announcement, “My backside is divided in two parts …”
david gibbs on 21 Mar 2010 at 6:25 pm #
I love it. Except that I would add one more thing I hate:
The attempt by some to equate christianity with conservative republican politics or anglo saxon culture.
Links to Make You Go Hmmm - In The Agora on 21 Mar 2010 at 8:20 pm #
[...] evangelical Christian writes about eight things he hates about Christianity. I agree with six of [...]
Links to Make You Go Hmmm « Olde Frothingblog on 21 Mar 2010 at 8:28 pm #
[...] evangelical Christian writes about eight things he hates about Christianity. I agree with six of [...]
William Mayor on 22 Mar 2010 at 9:58 am #
What I hate most about Christianity is a theology that requires me to separate faith and science. Nicene theology, which Christians traditionally follow, originally applied only within the Roman Empire, and assumes a worldview that contradicts both modern science and itself. I don’t know about anyone else, but it seems to me that modern science has a fairly good track record when it comes to understanding the world we live in. How can we consistently claim to believe in a theology that contradicts the benefits we enoy from a different worldview?
C. Barton on 22 Mar 2010 at 10:02 am #
Yeah, “Chirstian” culture can be goofy. I mean, putting “Jesus Rocks” in gothic script on a T-shirt doesn’t make it a “Christian” T-shirt! And it doesn’t make Jesus an alternative rocker.
I can’t quite get over the eternal hell concept, either. How can I be joyful in Heaven, when “The smoke of their torment rises forever . . .”?
Except for one thing I remember in scripture: the wicked will call to the rocks to fall on them to hide them from Christ when He returns. An unregenerate soul cannot stand in the presence of God without absolute conviction and terror, or so it seems. The alternative is to flee to a place farthest from His presence, and this is precisely what Hell is. This offers a little more understanding, I think.
Paul on 22 Mar 2010 at 1:01 pm #
Yes, Hell is a tough belief to live with. However, concepts of Hell such as C.S. Lewis’ do help somewhat.
Quote of the Day: Discernment Ministries « Thinking Out Loud on 23 Mar 2010 at 4:02 am #
[...] Quote of the Day: Discernment Ministries Filed under: cults — Tags: appraisal ministries, C. Michael Patton, Christianity, discernment ministries, doctrine, Faith, false teaching, lighthouse ministries, theology, watchdog ministries — paulthinkingoutloud @ 5:01 am This is from C. Michael Patton at the theology blog, Parchment and Pen. [...]
Truth Unites... and Divides on 23 Mar 2010 at 8:23 am #
Eight Things I Hate About Christianity
I’m not particularly keen about LibProt Wolves prowling and devouring the flock.
“”The Religious Left, from “social justice” Catholic nuns and Protestant ministers to the Democratic Speaker of the House and president of the United States, have been incessantly claiming God’s advocacy of their healthcare reform. That’s no surprise, just as it’s no surprise that the press is not only not outraged but silently supportive. There’s nary a whimper, let alone howls, of “separation of church and state!”
Last August, President Obama addressed a virtual gathering of 140,000 Religious Left individuals. He told them he was “going to need your help” in passing healthcare. Obama penitently invoked a period of “40 Days,” a trial of deliverance from conservative tormentors, from temptation by evildoers. He lifted up the brethren, assuring them, “We are God’s partner in matters of life and death.”
Like a great commissioning, in the 40 Days that followed the Religious Left was filled with the spirit, confidently spreading the word, pushing for—among other things—abortion funding as part of an eternally widening “social justice” agenda. The Religious Institute, which represents 4,800 clergy, urged Congress to include abortion funding in “healthcare” reform, adamantly rejecting amendments that prohibited funding. To not help poor women secure their reproductive rights was unjust, declared the progressive pastors. As the Rev. Debra Hafner, executive director of the Religious Institute, complained, federal policy already “unfairly prevents low-income women and federal employees from receiving subsidized” abortions.”
Excerpted from here.
Susan on 23 Mar 2010 at 9:05 am #
I hate that a church can go from a strong history of being evangelistic…to being absorbed with ‘redeeming culture’ and promoting ‘human flourishing’….(without the verbal proclamation of the gospel) in the course of 10 years……and the congregation is slowly lulled to sleep over what has been lost. When are our pastors going to wake up and smell the New Testament coffee (Acts maybe!)….rather than dwelling in the cultural mandate and the Abrahamic covenant. After all, if people are going to receive the blessing of the Abrahamic covenant they need to know Jesus!
Scott on 23 Mar 2010 at 11:54 am #
Is the seeker-sensitive movement really concerned about the lost? Or with attendance to fill the nice buildings they build in order to pay for the nice buildings they build?
Who will build His church?
What is sacrificed? True fellowship? A place for believers to gather? Equipping of the saints?
C. Barton on 23 Mar 2010 at 2:24 pm #
Paul, post #65:
I agree that CS Lewis is good at explaining stuff. He’s been almost as influential in my early years as Bible commentaries, etc.
I don’t mean to get spooky, but I remember a dream I had as a teen; I was before God and felt so naked and exposed – I still had a dark “core” of sin at the exact center of my soul and was desperately trying to cover it up and hide it from God, which is absurd, because God is total and unconditional love – but all I could feel is fear and shame; I began to understand the story of the Fall, when Adam & Eve “knew they were naked . . .”.
And so, it might be that those without the clean robes of salvation simply cannot dwell in Heaven?
Grady Patterson on 24 Mar 2010 at 4:57 pm #
Hell certainly seems to be a list-topper!
I have had long discussions with an annihilationist, and have come to some conclusions that may be worth considering:
1: Hell – of some sort – is clearly referred to in Scripture: to simply say it doesn’t exist at all is to step outside the bounds of Biblical support.
2: Hell cannot be a punishment in the normal sense – where the intent and hope is of rehabilitation. It must be, then, either retribution or simple consequence.
3: The most consistent property of hell (not merely the grave that I can find in Scripture is that *God doesn’t seem to be there*: the Spirit does not draw souls to repentance in hell – the story of Lazarus and the rich man illustrates this with the lack of water on the “wrong” side of the Chasm.
4: If God is not there, then there is no life there – yet there is clearly existence: if one wanted to describe an eternal torment, I’m not sure how they could do any better! The mental picture I get is of an Alka-Seltzer dissolving in a glass of water – yet never completing its decay – a continual and eternal dissolution. Decay, burning, melting – even being eaten by worms – all carry this same connotation of dissolution.
5: There is no need – although it is not excluded – to see hell as retributive – those who go there go as a direct result of their rejection of Christ: they want no God, and that is what they get.
Every Scriptural description of hell as a “lake of fire” can be seen as a figurative or metaphoric – while it may be literally true, there is no need for it to be: using the smoking fires of the valley of Hinnom would certainly have gotten the idea of eternal death and unending destruction across.
I am a completely self-taught student of the Word and follower of Christ – so don’t by any means take my word for much of anything: test it by your own study (I don’t think that is much of a problem here
)
C. Barton on 25 Mar 2010 at 9:34 am #
I think that it is safe to say that metaphor and simile were used in scripture because there is really no vocabulary for us to speak of heavenly things; when Apostle Paul told of a vision of Heaven, he spoke of an ineffable and transcendent experience which could not be described.
So, “what is the Kingdom of Heaven like?”: Jesus used the examples He saw every day to explain things. Also, metaphor is used in beautiful ways, such as , “the water of the Word”, “fire of the Holy Spirit”, etc.
Interesting that the fires of Hell dissolve, but the fire of the Holy Spirit empowers – the presence and intimate fellowship of God seems to be the difference.
KevinR on 25 Mar 2010 at 3:30 pm #
The single thing most disturbing to me about what many call christianity today is the lack of emphasis on forgiveness. Few teach forgiveness accurately. Fewer Protestants require forgiveness as a proof of salvation. Seldom do I see actual forgiveness within the ranks of Protestant christianity. This is less apparent to me, ironically, in Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
For example, the divorce rate is just as high among people who call themselves christians as the world. Broken families are the norm. Church splits are epidemic (and we’re not talking about legitimate disputes over doctrine/orthodoxy/heresy – we’re talking about the kinds of music and church governance issues).
These things in and of themselves just speak to sick hearts who need reconciliation with God and transformation by his spirit. But they also reveal a christianity that no longer talks about true forgiveness. Sure, we talk about how God forgives us – but that same God requires we forgive each other, to the same extent and in the same way that he forgives us.
The most popular teaching I’ve been exposed to in the church on forgiveness is “Forgive, but never forget” What?!? Is that how God forgives us? It’s a sickness – an epidemic.
KevinR on 25 Mar 2010 at 3:37 pm #
And just when I thought I had made my point, I remember something else.
I also hate the shift into extreme evangelicalism. Before I get too far into this, let me preface my comments by noting that I witness to unbelievers often. I believe in what has been called the “great commission.”
However, some are called to be evangelists. We are ALL called to be brothers and sisters. We are never called to love the world or the things of the world. We are called to love our brothers and sisters more than anyone except Christ himself. To love a brother or sister is to love Christ.
Church discipline, as described by Jesus and Paul both, requires that we ultimately treat a brother or sister who is unrepentant as what? Yep – that’s right – an UNBELIEVER!!!! Remarkably, for most churches this would mean we treat them better than we ever have – for we love unbelievers more than we love ourselves.
And so I hate that either Jesus was wrong: the world will not know us by our love for one another; or christianity is more wrong than ever and is filled with world-loving convert-making proselytizing seeker-finder false christians.
So my two “hates” are really one. For if we really do love our brother and sister as Christ – then we will forgive them, no? And if we love the world more than we love the family of God, then we will spend LOTS of money and energy trying to convert the world all in the name of the ‘great commission’ instead of doing what we are ALL called to do – namely, love. And not the world.
Spiritual sobriety « Perennial Student on 06 Apr 2010 at 10:45 pm #
[...] I find it somewhat of a relief that the (primary) writer of the blog Parchment and Pen admits that prayer is hard for him also. “It is hard to keep up with someone whose relationship techniques do not mirror [...]
Darryl Flood on 06 Apr 2010 at 11:18 pm #
1. Fred Phelps
He’s a minister who believes all kinds of cruel and inhumane things that people sin because God hates them. Where in the Bible do we find a Jesus Christ who died for only a select group of people or a god who arbitrarily picked people before they were born to burn for all eternity? What kind of twisted Christianity teaches that all sinners are on a conveyor belt to Hell that they cannot get off? People have a choice in the matter of their salvation! We can get off the sinful track by believing in Christ, which leads us to repentance and servanthood to God- I am proof of that.
And then Phelps has the unmitigated gall to parade his offensive signs while the family of a dead soldier mourns their loss, under the assumption that a man must bear the weight of all the country’s sins. I wish there were some theologian-warriors in the world to forever bury Phelps’ theology of a god who doesn’t give us a choice in salvation.
Michelle on 11 Apr 2010 at 8:58 pm #
To William, #63– I just want to mention two well-made DVDs that have helped me to see how science and faith can go beautifully together– in fact, it helped me to realize that God gave us science to make discoveries that could point us to Him. The DVDs are “Unlocking the Mystery of Life ” and “The Privileged Planet.” They can both be found on amazon. I hope this helps… I’m not disagreeing that there are some hard things to work through with faith and science, but these DVDs helped me to see much more clearly the Truth behind what we know.
mike on 13 Apr 2010 at 7:30 am #
I am a hopeful universalist and believe every word of the Bible. Hell is my number one problem with Christianity. We need to do something about it.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 13 Apr 2010 at 2:47 pm #
Mike: “Hell is my number one problem with Christianity. We need to do something about it.”
Jesus spoke about Hell and on Hell more than anyone else in the New Testament.
What we need to do is to heed what Jesus said about Hell.
William Mayor on 13 Apr 2010 at 11:53 pm #
Michelle, #77, I fully agree that science and theology are able to work together. However, theology makes it harder then it needs to be with its insistence that ancient philosophy was correct. The Council of Nicea was not the best representation of the church of its day, not even just the church in the Roman Empire. Yet it survived and we now hold its positions as almost sacred.
Andrew on 11 May 2010 at 8:09 pm #
I know that the Christadelphians are a christian denomination that rejects the popular doctrine of hell, based on scripture. Before rejecting this notion outright, it’s quite interesting to view their argumentation. Are there other such groups?
Jason on 07 Jun 2010 at 4:08 pm #
William, I am sorry that you feel that science makes faith difficult. For me, my study of science (as a layman) has only encouraged me in my belief that Christianity is absolutely true! If I may, I would recommend that you read “Signature in the Cell” by Stephen Meyer. It’s a fantastic book that lays out an extremely convincing case for the view that only a Designer could create the world and universe we know.
William Mayor on 07 Jun 2010 at 11:28 pm #
Jason, I find that science makes traditional theology hard to accept. My PhD thesis is using science to support the biblical world view, while trashing traditional theology. These are different positions.
C. Barton on 08 Jun 2010 at 2:25 pm #
This whole campaign that “science is opposed to religion” is a bunch of nonsense that the Illuminati used, somewhat successfully, to obfuscate matters of spiritual importance, such as the authority of Scriptures, etc.
Their standard operating strategy is THESIS + ANTITHESIS = SYNTHESIS, meaning that they create a false opposite to faith, call it “rationalism”, and then try to create a new paradigm by reconciling the two. Pretty clever, if you ask me.
Teluog on 15 Jun 2010 at 4:51 pm #
Amen to much of what Patton said. Here are some of my peeves:
*Mysticism–Feelings, promptings, experience, “listening for God’s voice,” the newest wave of the Spirit, etc. have become the creed for much of the church, even though no such things are taught in the Bible as a part of the Christian life. The whole listen to His voice thing reeks of gnostic psychicism or Eastern Hindu meditation.
*Narcissism–God always seems to focus especially on you, tells you who to marry, gives you a poem to write or a song (which seems to usually be of poor quality compared to secular media), prompts you to do such-and-such, tells you what to buy, calls you for a ministry that you just so happen to love because of how it benefits YOU (I doubt Paul was looking forward to being chased out of town by mobs), alwasy micromanaging your thoughts & feelings & steps, Satan is always attacking you, etc. Many Christians just have to be at the center of the spiritual realm, which sounds like pride and idolatry to me.
*eisegesis–the inability of the vast majority of Christians to fundamentally interpret their source of faith and life is just tragic, and has lead to so many divisions over theological and life application matters, shallow sermons that usually focus on the same basic topics (e.g., being nice to people–Mr. Roger’s Neighbourhood did a better job teaching this.)
*youth ministry–it’s just a bunch of games, extreme sports, movies, pizza, weekend events that are all about the latest hip bands, although there is nothing in the Bible teaching that fun is necessary for spiritual growth. Then they get to college-age and dropout because they have little or no real faith.
I think Paul Washer says it all better than I can: http://www.tenindictments.com/
Oun on 17 Jun 2010 at 4:27 pm #
Have you read ‘Why I am not a Christian’ by B. Russell? If so, would you give us a rundown?
I did in fact read it from page 1 to last page (absorbing and underlining) just a few years after I had a Bible into my hand first time (more than 50 years ago) and I am going to read it once more (to recall what the hell he said) at the same time I am trying to pick up to read once more a small old 1974 book ‘Who is a Christian?’ by Loyal R. Ringenberg. – Then I may be able to finally articulate my answer to ‘who I am’ and ‘why and how I can say I am a Christian’, now that my days on earth are numbered.
What I hate about Christianity? For a moment, here is one:
that it has become a RELIGION, a belief,
- a denomination, something being hawked as useful gadget ‘as seen on TV’, in books
- with people of church-freak, program-freak, purpose-driven freak, spirit-freak, tongue-freak, emergent-freak, KJB worshipers, Mary worshipers, wish-wash deists, everything ok tolerantists, gay-bishops, selling his third-rate sermon notes as a Bible translation (Message – by Peterson), prayer chanters (rosary, Lord’s of prayer, etc.), etc.
- full gospels according to ___ (‘pure or full Gospel’ of Cho Yonggi; Warren, Roberts, Schuller, Hinn, Eddy, Copeland, William Seymour, Ellen White, Wilkins, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, randomly collected from a helluva hall of fame; hoping your favorite is not one them to upset you; you may put any name from myriads here, it would be too wrong. Hint – no one died for Yeshua Himself.)
Historically what was built on the foundation Yeshua (aka Jesus) was Apostolic Biblical Community (ABC) has been usurped by Constantine Catholic Church (CCC) in the early 4th A.D. Apostolic authority was taken over by Papal Authority and then comes Pretesting authorities, with everyone is in his own authority. Only the small remnant with flickering of its spirit among so-called Christians or Messianists may here and there found.
Oun on 17 Jun 2010 at 4:59 pm #
Here is another gadfly comment I’m going to spend time and post in your wonderful blog:
Your reason #1 ‘hell’ is inaccurate.
‘hell’ itself is a concept/idea people had in the history for long long time. It predates English translation of the Bible, which borrowed the word to translate various words in Greek (as far as New Testament goes). Many different cultures/languages have something corresponding to it. E.g. in Kanji the word means ‘(under)ground dungeon’
I don’t think we can label ‘hell’ as a ‘doctrine of christianity’. To do it, you have to define ‘christianity’ as some thing like ‘what so-called Christians or people connected to Churches, Denominations, etc.’ and you have to define ‘hell’ specifically.
I admit that you may rightfully hate Christianity because so-called Christians use and apply ‘hell’ wrong way.
As far as I am concerned ‘hell’ is a reality where people ARE in, as used in secular expressions or in religious tones, but not the place one GOES after death. A word or phrase corresponding this concept or picture is aplenty in the Bible, but it would do great disservice to translate it in the Bible as ‘hell’ for both bible-believers or non-believers in particular.
No, for the millions and millions it is not a place to go waiting until after they die. Myriads and myriads are in hell now. Many living in ‘hellish’ condition, but this is distinct from ‘living in hell’.
In other words, ‘living in hell’ means ‘living in sin’, whether one is in ghetto, having kids scrounge a city garbage mount to find something to feed on, or luxuriating in the White-washed House in our D.C., enjoying power game. All the same, whether or not they have put on a great (?) sounding label ‘christian’ – a very dangerous one for those Christ-followers as in Arab world.
Amaranth on 01 Jul 2010 at 12:18 pm #
From the perspective of a former Christian who is still involved in Christianity (for better or worse), if anyone is interested:
1. Treating the Gospel as a sales pitch. “You’re worthless! Get Jesus and he’ll make you not worthless anymore!” Thanks, but I’m bombarded with advertisements for crap I don’t need all day, every day. I don’t need to hear yet another one from the pulpit.
2. Obsession over hell and being saved. Closely related to the Christianity sales pitch.
3. Superiority disguised as righteousness. Belief that it is morally required to turn one’s nose up at Others. Belief that inequality is God’s will for the world.
4. The tendency to blame reprehensible doctrine on God, for the purpose of absolving oneself from the moral responsibility for effects of said doctrine on people. “Well, *I* don’t like the idea of you going to hell either, and I’m sorry it’s completely shattered your faith in God’s love…but don’t blame *me*, GOD’s the one who set it up that way.”
5. The tendency to equate doubts and questioning with rebellion against God. “Who are you to question the Almighty?” Sorry, but I won’t follow a God whose morals are so alien that they seem downright wrong, and who can’t handle it when I call him on it.
6. Refusal to consider anything outside of the Bible as containing any truth at all. Refusal to employ basic reading comprehension skills when reading the Bible. Treating the Bible as a rulebook. Denial of obvious reality if it seems to contradict something in the Bible. Denial of reason and experience as valid tools for discerning truth. Denying that Biblical controversy exists/is worth considering. Basically, misusing the Bible.
7. “Hate the sin, love the sinner”. As an example: “Hey man, I love you, but the fact that you’re attracted to other men is just DISGUSTING! God hates it! Needs to STOP! But I still love you.” Hate to say it, but that kind of doublespeak is a great way to scare people away…
William Mayor on 01 Jul 2010 at 12:37 pm #
Amaranth,
You raise some excellent points. On the issue of heaven and hell though, while I would argue that both are very real, I would also argue that many who call themselves Christian will not end up in “heaven’, and many who do not call themselves Christian will not end up in “hell”. But then I base my attitudes about this on theology, psychiatry and physics.
Bill
C. Barton on 02 Jul 2010 at 10:34 am #
I agree that you can’t really know if a stranger is “Going to Hell”, as so many embarrassingly tell others, sometines in public venues. The scriptures clearly tell us not to use God’s Word as a “cloak of malice”, but as an encouragement to seek God personally, even intimately. There is a difference between warning someone with a genuine concern, and blasting someone with all kinds of guilt-producing speech, etc.
Also, in both the OT and NT, there are all kinds of encouragements to get wisdom and understanding in all things, which in today’s language can mean to get an education; nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to blindly believe anything someone tells us. In fact, even Jesus Himself said that if His words are the only evidence of who He is, don’t believe Him! But if the prophets and the Holy Spirit testify about Him, then all is well.
Also, when you realize that you are saved by grace, you can relax the attitudes about the sins of others. It’s OK, I think, to just love someone without being offended by their behavior, because true spiritual love will look beyong the surface to the person’s innate value, both to ohters, and to God.
As far as I know, Jesus didn’t mention homosexuality specifically, but He did warn us that we are all in the same boat, and He is the only way to shore!
emily on 24 Jul 2010 at 3:34 pm #
I felt the same way you did about Hell. Knowing that I am saved despite (in spite of, perhaps) the things I do– even the good I attempt– made me question how anyone could be sent to Hell. Simply because my best friends grew up in China, Vietnam or the Middle East?
As someone who has questioned many “traditional” positions of the Church I have to say that I know how hard it can be to question your own religious beliefs, if you think that God is truly behind them. How can I ask a Muslim to just leave behind his faith “because Christianity is better” if he truly and completly is committed to his belief in Islam? To do so would go against his own concience, if he believes that God is truly to be found in Islam.
“I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him” –Small Catechism. Any faith in Christianity I have is only because of God, not because I have reasoned my way there, or because of the “evidence” of Christianity or any such thing. Therefore, I believe that my friend leaving Islam (or atheism, buddhism, ba’hai, ect.) would be because God called them, not because I pushed them.
And yet I can’t believe that God would come to the world and endure the suffering he did only to save the few he might choose to be saved. There is nothing about me that is inherently better or more worthy of God and love and forgiveness than my roommates, my best friends and even those that I really hate. I can’t believe God chooses some to be saved and others not.
What of the parables of the Prodigal Son? Or where Jesus is not happy with the 99 sheep until that last one has been found? Or the constant appeal to love your enemies, pray for those who hurt you and to always forgive? Does God hold us to a higher standard than he has for himself?
I don’t intend the above to be an “appologetic” for Universalism in any way, only to point out the inherent contradiction that an eternal hell throws into…
William Mayor on 24 Jul 2010 at 5:22 pm #
Emily,
As one who firmly supports the concept of “hell” but also agrees that it does not make sense that God “chooses” who goes there, might I suggest that part of the solution is to understand that “hell” is a creation of fallen humanity, not God. I don’t have time to post the physics of such a belief, nor the biblical support, but I believe that humanity created hell when we fell. Further, we do not escape hell by mouthing the magic words of “I believe in Jesus” or whatever other similar form you wish, but rather by living the belief that Jesus lived the right way, whether one is aware of living such an expressed belief or not. Thus the devote Muslim or Hindu might live the necessary life and go to heaven while never vocally acknowledging Jesus, while the Christian who professes belief loudly, but fails to live it does not.
mbaker on 24 Jul 2010 at 7:05 pm #
William,
You said:
“Further, we do not escape hell by mouthing the magic words of “I believe in Jesus” or whatever other similar form you wish, but rather by living the belief that Jesus lived the right way, whether one is aware of living such an expressed belief or not. Thus the devote Muslim or Hindu might live the necessary life and go to heaven while never vocally acknowledging Jesus, while the Christian who professes belief loudly, but fails to live it does not.”
If you are Christian, how do you explain the scripture where Jesus says “No one comes to the Father except through me”, or “It is by grace we are saved through faith, not works, so that no man may boast.”
It sounds as if you are promoting a form of universalism rather than Christianity. I’m wondering how you see the difference.
Also wondering how mere mortal human beings with a limited life span, and who cannot save themselves, would then would be capable of creating an eternal hell.
Just doesn’t compute.
Oun on 24 Jul 2010 at 8:15 pm #
To William #92.
Like ‘darkness’ which is not an entity by itself but simply absence of light, hell is, sort of, absence of heaven. It’s not a separate entity of human creation. Moreover, hell is not a location or place, when some go after death.
The condition one has to endure (who knows how long) IS one’s own creation. It is going to be hot as like a place burning with sulfur (if one got consumed with hate and anger) or be cold as absolute zero (if one was unconcerned with others and reject aloof).
No one, even God, sends them to ‘hell’; it is the condition that some will get sent because they choose to go. Don’t blame God or blame the Bible for what they bring on their own destiny. The believers are the ones who refuse to go to ‘hell’ and choose instead to go to ‘heaven’.
I buy your notion that (some of) Muslims go to heaven. Yeah so do Buddhists (though they call it nirvana) and atheists. It is like this: Everyone believes God. What matters is which god they believe. What matters here is which heaven they know and are talking about. When all go to heaven, don’t expect to see them there. Their heaven is at the opposite address which is the address of our hell. I remember an ABC news magazine 20/20 ‘Is there heaven’ a few years ago: Barbara Walter gathered up a few different people to talk, such as Dali Lama, a protestant Pastor, a Catholic priest, a Jewish Rabbi (I believe an Islamic imam was there. Not sure of any atheist). Nice try it was as it was entertaining but with no real substance. Everyone talking about ‘heaven’, but no one was actually talking about same thing.
Likewise, here, each of us are talking about ‘hell’ while all may not be talking about same thing. I believe CMP better make another topic ‘what the hell is to each of us’