Why I Believe the Canon of Scripture is Theoretically Open . . . And Am Fine With It!
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The term “canon” refers to the accepted books of the Scriptures. The Protestant canon contains 66 books, while other Christian traditions will vary, adding a few books often referred to as the Deuterocanonical books (“second canon”) or the “Apocrypha.” A commonly accepted understanding among most Christians of all traditions is that the books that belong in the Scripture cannot be added to. In other words, the canon is “closed.”
While there is a sense in which I believe the canon is closed, there is also a sense in which I don’t believe the canon is closed. Let me explain.
In order to maintain that the canon is closed, most Christians would refer the the first few centuries of the church. In particular councils such as Rome, Hippo, and Carthage, as well as Athanasius’ Easter Letter will be referred to as evidence that the canon of the New Testament had closed. The Old Testament, according to most, was already established and closed by the time of Christ. For this, reference would be made to the New Testament itself, as well as the testimony of Josephus, Philo, and some of the inter-testamental works.
My contention with this assumption is that to say that the canon is “closed” needs to be understood more in an observational way rather than an authoritative pronouncement. The term “closed” might not be the best word since it implies a necessary finality concerning the contents of Scripture. This is something that I don’t believe we can say in the way that we often say it for two primary reasons:
1. Scripture itself does not limit the canon to 66 books. No matter how hard you look, one would be hard pressed to find a place that definitely “closes” the canon. Revelation 22:18-19 is often referred to as evidence:
Revelation 22:18-19: I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
The problem with using this passage is that it is specific to the book of Revelation. Just because the book of Revelation occurs last in our canon does not mean that this warning serves as a book end for the entire Bible. It is meant to communicate a general statement about those who would be tempted to add to or take away from God’s word in general, and to the book of Revelation in specific. Yet the same warning is given in the book of Deuteronomy and the Proverbs:
Deuteronomy 4:2: You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.
Proverbs 30:6: Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.
Does this mean that once Deuteronomy or Proverbs were complete that no one was supposed to add any other books? I don’t know anyone who would make that argument.
2. The canon is self-regulating. The idea of canon is simply a way of expressing those books that are from God, authoritative, intentional toward a specific purpose and, therefore, part of Scripture. There is no reason to ever “close” it if by close you mean it is not possible for God to add to it. I know that people are simply trying to say that other people cannot add to it, but I think in doing so we have philosophically overstepped our bounds. In other words, we don’t close anything. God simply stops adding to it. We have no right to say God cannot add to it because it is “closed.” This way, God regulates His own revelation.
In short, the argument that I am making is that the canon is closed only to the degree that God is no longer adding to it. But it is not closed in the sense that God cannot add to it were He to make an unforeseen movement in the history of revelation. The primary reason why we have not added anything to the canon in the last two-thousand years is simply because God has not used an authenticated apostle or prophet to speak His word and add to it in two-thousand years. Only in this sense is the canon “closed.”
Now, to be clear, I don’t think that God will ever add anything to the canon and I am not meaning to suggest otherwise. I believe that the Bible’s primary purpose is to communicate the history of redemption and I believe that we have good reason to believe that this history is complete. Listen to the writer of Hebrews:
Hebrews 1:1-2: Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
“In these last days he has spoken to us by his Son” contrasts the former means of revelation through the “prophets.” It suggests finality. God is no longer speaking to us through a mediator who is unlike Him, but through His genetic equal—His Son! What more do we need? Therefore, I think we are safe believing that God’s revelation is complete, even if we cannot be overly dogmatic about this.
When communicating the doctrine of canonicity, I think this is as far as we can go: It seems that the Scriptures are complete for two reasons: 1) God has not added to it through an authenticated spokes person in two-thousand years, and 2) the purpose of Scripture is completed with the advent of Christ and the communication of the Gospel.
I know that the idea of a theoretically open canon will not sit well with many people, especially Christian apologists who combat Mormonism as well as cessationists who combat modern-day prophets. Yet there is really no issue with either when we realize that Mormonism falls due to its inability to authenticate Joseph Smith as a prophet and its contradiction with previous revelation. Concerning modern-day prophets, I don’t have an issue. I don’t believe that we have seen a prophet since the time of the apostles, but this does not mean that God cannot send one.
In short, God can do whatever He desires. Our theological constructs and definitions of a “closed canon” do not lock Him out of our room. If He wants to add to the canon or speak through a prophet, He can do so. Neither you, I, a church council, or a Pope can put a “do not enter” on the door of revelation.
I don’t mind saying the canon is closed so long as we qualify this. The canon is “closed” to the degree that God is no longer adding to it.
To be fair, this proposition is not quit as provocative as it might seem. While this will irk Roman Catholics who believe that the Church itself closed the canon, Protestants have historically believed that the church simply recognizes the canon, but does not have the authority to close it.
If you enjoyed this post, make sure you subscribe to my RSS feed!- Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 7): Building a Theology of the Sign Gifts
- “If there are Modern Day Prophets, then the Canon is Still Open” . . . And Other Stupid Statements
- Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 5): An Argument from History
- Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 8): I am a De Facto Cessationist
- Why I Believe the Canon is Fallible . . . And am Fine with It!
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David on 30 Jan 2010 at 7:11 pm #
First!!!
Werner on 30 Jan 2010 at 7:59 pm #
Michael, I have often wondered what my attitude would be if the lost letter to the Corinthians were found. Would I, should I regard it as inspired and infallible?
C Michael Patton on 30 Jan 2010 at 8:45 pm #
Werner,
Good question. I believe that we could theoretically find something that is inspired, but this does not necessarily mean it is canon. The assumption that everything that is inspired belongs in the canon (not that you are making this, but other do), is based on a misunderstanding of what the canon is from a Protestant perspecitve.
Orthodox and Catholic, on the other hand, have a much broader understanding and definition of “canon” in general. So broad that it is often inclusive of the church itself.
bethyada on 30 Jan 2010 at 9:18 pm #
If one thinks that
1. God has given his oracles to or thru the Jews, and
2. God intends to extend salvation to the Gentiles, thus removing the Jewish uniqueness in some ways, and
3. given the destruction of the temple and dispersion of the Jews in 70 AD
could one argue that there is no further Bible intended?
(I think most, if not all, of the NT antedates the temple destruction).
cherylu on 30 Jan 2010 at 11:01 pm #
CMP,
You may not believe there are any valid prophets out there today, however there are large groups in the charismatic church that would and could name you any number of people that they believe to be valid prophets. And some, if not most of them, are teaching the most off the wall and often heretical stuff imaginable. I can’t imagine what it would be like if these folks got a hold of the idea that they could declare what any of these folks had written as part of the canon! Their pronouncements are hung on now. It seems to me it would only be that much worse if they decided that what they were saying was actually Scripture and belonged in the canon.
C Michael Patton on 30 Jan 2010 at 11:04 pm #
Cheryl,
We have a word for that: cult.
cherylu on 30 Jan 2010 at 11:15 pm #
Yeah, cult is a good word for it. However, to them anything these folks say is very valid and it would only be that much worse I think if they decided that their words were actually Scripture.
And the frightening thing is, these groups seem to be growing very quickly and their teachings seem to be affecting many others that are not officially part of their groups. From what I can tell, it is truly a “leaven” that is spreading in a good part of the Body today.
Dale on 31 Jan 2010 at 7:00 am #
You have pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter. While it is very, very unlikely that anything will ever be added to the canon I cannot, theologically, philosophically, or historically rule out the possibility of it.
cornellmachiavelli on 31 Jan 2010 at 7:55 am #
CMP
Do you have a Glossary of Terms on this site?
You are using words in a way I’ve not come across.
CQ
Kyle Dillon on 31 Jan 2010 at 11:59 am #
Related to the question of whether anything could be *added* to the canon, is it possible that anything could/should be *removed* from it? Might there be a book in our Bible that doesn’t belong there?
ScottL on 31 Jan 2010 at 12:42 pm #
Michael -
A couple of things to consider and ponder:
1) You quote Hebrews 1:1-2, which states, ‘but in these last days he [God] has spoken to us by his Son. But, interestingly enough, while the Son was the final redemptive word in the progressive redemptive revelation of God, and those apostles and their associates testified to that final word in Christ as we now have recorded in the NT Scripture, there were still active apostles and prophets in those days when the writer to the Hebrews wrote that statement. We have to deal with the reality of apostles and prophets being alive and well while that statement was being made by the writer to the Hebrews. Makes me think we have wrongly identified and classified what the apostolic and prophetic ministry is essentially about. I would lean towards pointing out that apostle and prophet does not equal ‘Scripture-writer’, though some apostles and prophets were utilised in such a role. I’ve been laying out thoughts in a series over at Theologica if you ever are interested in browsing it.
2) I kind of feel your view on an ‘open-closed’ canon does not hold fully together. You say that you do not believe the canon is intrinsically closed because God could send someone to speak authoritatively enough to which we would need to add those words to the canon. But then you claim you don’t think this will ever happen. It’s like the question: Could God ever create a rock He could not move? You could possibly answer both ‘yes’ and ‘no’, but I think it is unhelpful. Or it is somewhat like your series on why you are not a charismatic. You say you believe God could do certain things like was done by those we read about in the NT, but then you say you don’t believe it will really ever happen. I think this is ever so confusing. I do understand what you are getting at. But down to the details, I think this kind of argument has some holes.
Lisa Robinson on 31 Jan 2010 at 2:57 pm #
Scott, I’m wondering if we’re creating a word fallacy by insisting that everywhere the word prophet or prophecy or apostle is used, is meant to carry the same weight as those who would speak authoritatively for God. In Heb 1:1-2, this speaks of agents that do speak authoritatively and prophets in this context are those through whom God spoke through. Yet, in the NT where there are accounts of those prophesying, does it necessarily mean that God is speaking authoritatively through them or are they being prompted to edify, without any authoritative connotation? Honestly, I do need to do more research on this so I can’t say definitely, but I believe it is possible that prophecy does not always carry the same weight everywhere it is used.
So in Eph 2:20, which talks about the foundation of the prophets and apostles, this is ascribed to those who speak authoritatively but does not preclude there to exist persons to whom nuanced meanings of the word would apply.
Lisa Robinson on 31 Jan 2010 at 2:59 pm #
Michael, I think the existence of the two witnesses kind of supports your position. I hear what you’re saying, but MAN does that create some discomfort.
Derek on 31 Jan 2010 at 6:57 pm #
I was agreeing with you to a point. I think the canon is nothing more or less than a fallible list of infallible books (as you said in a previous post). But on the same note, neither am I a cessationist (1 Timothy 5:20-21) and I have yet to see a convincing theology that disproves spiritual gifts exist in this day and age (despite their abuses, I have experienced what I would view as “legitimate” spiritual gifts, so I’m very hesitant to question them unless it can be shown to me PLAINLY that they don’t exist and I am somehow deceived — a case I don’t see in the Bible).
What I think makes this position different from the “cults” is that I don’t think the prophetic gifts should carry the same weight or authority as Scripture, unless (as you said) God moves in such a way that its evident that this is the case. The reason being that the Bible (and by “Bible”, I’m presuming the Protestant canon) is the Rule of Faith to judge all doctrines, prophecies and things of the sort against. I think that’s where cults really screw up (Book of Mormon, etc.).
Sam on 31 Jan 2010 at 6:58 pm #
I think your point that God is no longer adding to His word is right. We have no power whatsoever to dictate God’s actions. Theoretically there may well be other books that are the inspired word of God that have been lost.
However, given the sheer number and completeness of the links between the scriptures we have, it would seem odd that there are not more references or inferences to ‘lost’ writings. If there were additional books then you would think that there would be more links without ends. The minute number of passages without links to other parts of scripture suggests to me that there is no large missing element and that we must simply study God’s word more to understand the parts that we do not.
Also, as God’s love for us is so great that he gave his son for us surely he has provided the whole way for us to find salvation in that grace. It would seem contrary to his character to allow any part of his word, given to help us to glorify him, to become lost.
Jesse G on 31 Jan 2010 at 10:01 pm #
“I believe that we could theoretically find something that is inspired, but this does not necessarily mean it is canon. The assumption that everything that is inspired belongs in the canon (not that you are making this, but other do), is based on a misunderstanding of what the canon is from a Protestant perspecitve.”
Michael, could you clarify this? Why wouldn’t something (a writing/letter) breathed out by God be considered part of the canon? Isn’t our canon a collection of that which is inspired? Or are you using these words differently?
Jesse G
Michael on 31 Jan 2010 at 10:06 pm #
Sam,
There may have some writings which were lost, but there are others which were rejected from the canon for reasons other than being gnostic distortions and are quite Orthodox in their thinking. The Shepard of Hermas, the Epistle (not Gospel) of Barnabas, and 1st Clement for instance come to mind. These were among the books (especially Hermas and 1st Clement) rejected because they were written after the Apostolic era.
ScottL on 01 Feb 2010 at 4:16 am #
Lisa -
I would possibly challenge the view you have espoused as to be too tightly boxed about apostles, but I’m usually wrong on these things.
Still, what you have to consider is that when the writer to the Hebrews wrote Heb 1:1-2 about the finality of Christ as the ‘last word’, there were still authoritative apostles teaching and writing at that same exact time that he made that statement, the writer to the Hebrews being one.
I do recognise that there are differing measures of apostolic and prophetic gifting. You cannot clump them altogether in the specific role of each. But even that line is hard to create, though we would like to create that line. I read 2 Corinthians and I see a man, Paul, who had an apostolic role and gift, but his mode of operation was never, ‘I’m the apostle, listen to me and obey since I speak the very words of God.’ Of course you would recognise they never made such statements, but I am not sure this allows us to create the boxes that we so desire to create.
I also recognise that in places like 1 Corinthians, the people were prophesying, but it might not have been carrying the authoritative role that people like Paul and others functioned in. But there were prophets in the OT era that functioned very similarly, not writing one thing that is in our canon. But we receive there words as authoritative – Nathan, Gad, Elijah, Elisha, etc.
I want to be faithful to approach this topic, but I also think we as evangelicals have created some tight boxes that don’t allow for us to move and function in certain things that I believe Jesus still desires of His body to function in. Again, it might sound cheesy, but my statement has regularly been: The body of Christ is to be all of Christ in all the earth. That means being apostolic and prophetic, just as He was. I’m not up for adding to the canon, since the final redemptive revelation has come in Christ and the new covenant. But I can never see myself backing away from the same God today desires to speak into our lives, our situations, our churches, our world.
John on 01 Feb 2010 at 6:50 am #
Believing the individual has the (fallible) responsibility to discern the canon, added to the belief nothing has closed the canon sounds pretty dangerous to me.
What’s to say Moby Dick is not inspired as the next instalment of Jonah? How do you “authenticate” a prophet as you put it, in a way that includes all the OT prophets, and excludes every other book in all creation, in an objective fashion? And I agree with what Scott says, that Hebrews does not say the prophets have ended, and Paul seems to imply prophets exist. Of course that all comes down to interpretation, but that doesn’t dismiss how dangerous this all is.
The way is open for anybody to decide that anything is scripture. How do you escape this? Hebrews 1 isn’t much of an argument, partly because it isn’t explicit about prophets ceasing, partly because either scripture is written by more people than “the (OT) prophets” (like for example apostles otherwise the NT isn’t scripture), or if you want to say Luke and Paul are prophets, that would again speak against their writings being scripture.
Lisa Robinson on 01 Feb 2010 at 7:40 am #
Scott, being apostolic and prophetic is different from the roles that apostles and prophets played regarding the authority of God’s communication. I get what you’re saying about the church playing the apostolic and prophetic role but it is not the role that grants authority. I don’t think that is boxing in but asking for an honest assessment in the way the words are used.
Rick on 01 Feb 2010 at 8:08 am #
John #19-
Yes, it would seem that following that line of thought, the “church” or “tradition” (universal and/or institutional) plays a more prominent role than many Protestants give it. Sola Scriptura is then partially bounded by what the “church” decrees?
jim on 01 Feb 2010 at 8:29 am #
What if I said ” I am a prophet , and I declare no More prophets will come after myself” How do you judge or discern what I have said and whether I am a Prophet or not. In the manifested word fellowship church they have a end time messenger prophet , William Brenham, he, and the church claim God revealed previous mysteries to him and he prophesied the end of the world for , I believe 1977. He died before he saw his prophecy proven untrue. Just a glance at the JW numerous predictions for more lunacy. Anyone can be a soft prophet but I’m looking for a prophet who will give me meat to feed upon.
I guess my general thought and conviction is if someone wants to be claimed a prophet, not any of this generic , fluff stuff, I would expect some kind of visible authoritive proof.
I do fall into the cessationists viewpoint with some gifts, for the last 2000 years through the word salvation has come to all who would hear and accept, what else could possibly open hearts.
jim on 01 Feb 2010 at 9:10 am #
On second thought!!! Please remove the following comment!
“for more lunacy.” and replace with
“Just a glance at the JW numerous predictions for the end of the world will testify of false prophets that abound”
ScottL on 01 Feb 2010 at 10:05 am #
Lisa -
I suppose apostles are apostolic and prophets are prophetic. Apostles function in apostolic ministry and prophets function in prophetic ministry. Sure, not everyone who walks out an apostolic function or prophesies is an apostle or prophet. And the body of Christ, as a whole, is called to be apostolic and prophetic, though each individual is not specifically gifted in that ministry.
But, when someone regularly is used in an apostolic ministry, guess what they are? An apostle. If one is regularly used in a prophetic ministry, guess what they are? A prophet. I’m fine to recognise their calling happened before that, as I would say that empowered them to walk out the ministry. But the real fruit in the end is if they actually function in these ministries. Not if they carry around a business card saying, ‘I’m apostle Paul,’ or ‘I’m prophet Elijah.’ Not if someone walked around with a paper that said, ‘Some of my words are in the Bible.’ Because not every apostle or prophet made it in the Bible, and not everything in the Bible was penned by an apostle or prophet. But men and women of old (and through the centuries) have got on with what it really means to be apostolic and prophetic, or function in the ministry of apostle or prophet. They are only mirroring what their Lord did about 2,000 years ago.
Lisa Robinson on 01 Feb 2010 at 10:20 am #
“But, when someone regularly is used in an apostolic ministry, guess what they are? An apostle. If one is regularly used in a prophetic ministry, guess what they are? A prophet.”
This is where I think the fallacy occurs. When we talk about apostles and prophets, we are talking about those who carried the authority to transmit “the word of the Lord”. To deem those that do not carry this authority as prophets and apostles, is well…confusing, IMHO. If someone carries the label prophet, they are in essence saying I am speaking for the Lord. And THAT is in direct contradiction to Hebrews 1:1-2. Same with apostleship and being eyewitnesses to Christ.
So lest this gets off topic (and CMP slaps our hands), to bring it back to the discussion of the post, who carries that authority today? No one because God has spoken in his son and his son sits at his right hand.
Derek on 01 Feb 2010 at 11:01 am #
@Lisa: I don’t see a contradiction between the spiritual gift of prophecy and Hebrews 1:1-2. Even if you don’t acknowledge that there is a gift of prophecy today, you do have to acknowledge that the two prophets spoken of in Revelation (assuming you’re not a preterist) will speak on behalf of the Lord and will exercise said gift.
“Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:20-21).
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1)
I think Hebrews 1:1-2 is saying that the Incarnation takes precedence over prophecies of the past. Whereas past prophecies were veiled, through the revealing of God’s Son, those prophecies now pale in comparison to learn all we can about the Messiah.
As for whether or not prophecies carry “authority”, I do think they do carry authority when they are addressed to the person in question and it is undeniable they are from God. Honestly, most the prophecies I’ve had (in forms of dreams) have been in the forms of warnings and mostly relate to myself. Although I’ve had some that were spoken on behalf of others that have come true. Not a one has contradicted anything found in the Bible and I check it beforehand to make sure.
Even as I say this, though, I do hesitate to use the term “prophet” for myself. Why? Because God gives His gifts when He wills. Prophecy can not be controlled (2 Peter 1:21). And I think, theoretically, all Christians, to a more or less extent, have the spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10). They would need to to acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ. How could you know otherwise?
Neither am I sure that an apostle like those revealed in the New Testament exists. Sure, in the generic sense of one being “sent” (Paul, Barnabas, Junia and Adronicus are called apostles in the NT, but aren’t part of the core Twelve). But another reason why I believe nothing else should be added to the canon, at least until God makes it clear, is because the New Testament are the writings of those who knew Jesus firsthand.
Although I suppose if a church wants to collect its own prophecies and consider them a secondary canon for that fellowship, they are free to do so. However, then they are under the same scrutiny as any other prophecy. And even if a church were to do this, it would not carry the same weight and authority as the New Testament, since salvation is by faith in Christ alone. God’s not going to change His plan on us.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on an otherwise divisive topic and I would appreciate hearing more on this.
Lisa Robinson on 01 Feb 2010 at 11:22 am #
Derek, I would agree with everything you said except for what constitutes authority. If someone speaks forth a word concerning a situation or an edification, in what way is that authoritative? I don’t think that negates having a prophetic gifting (and that has varying interpretations) but doesn’t mean that the person is speaking as the prophets did as Heb 1:1 is referring to.
Derek on 01 Feb 2010 at 11:41 am #
Regarding “authority”: Theoretically, let’s say I have a prophecy or dream that someone within the congregation is committing adultery. I’m shown what will happen if they don’t quit. I tell that person and they truly are shown to be in adultery, but they don’t repent. The thing in my prophecy/dream comes true, like God said it would. In that sense, for that person, who knew beyond a shadow of a doubt I was speaking on God’s behalf, it would be authoritative to THEM. But not the rest of the body. I guess you could argue that the authority is from the Bible, since it goes back to the Bible. I don’t believe any true prophecy will contradict Scripture.
I know of one guy who has a prophetic gift but some of his prophecies are just “weird” (i.e. revelations about the Holy Spirit being a woman and our Mother and how God is using this doctrine to test people in the last days, the Milky Way galaxy actually having double the planets it really has, but the others are really invisible, etc.). I was given a dream which I have interpreted to mean that he has Mormon spirits (as he used to be a Mormon) and that his church can go either direction (as it does at least teach salvation is by faith in Christ). There are times where I know beyond a shadow of a doubt God is speaking through him. But then again, there are other times where he starts prattling off this mystic mumbo-jumbo that contradicts Scripture. That, I believe, goes against God’s intent for prophecy in the New Testament. After all, as the Torah says, the secret things belong to God.
Its hardly surprising that this person can give both true and questionable prophecies because even Balaam, a soothsayer, received true prophecies. Deut. 18 says a false prophet can receive true prophecies and teach false doctrines because God permits them to test his people. That’s where I think a prophet oversteps their authority, using the person above as an example.
Although I wouldn’t necessarily discount new information either. I’ve been shown demons and given their names, if for no other reason than that God wanted me to note them and perhaps notice patterns. But their grounds for being there were still biblical: they were only there because people were committing sins the Bible explicitly warns about. Once more, the Bible is being pointed back to as an authority.
In short: I don’t think a prophet is going to reveal anything against Scripture. It can be “new” in one sense, but the intent, at the very least, will back Scripture and will not change the message of salvation.
jim on 01 Feb 2010 at 1:05 pm #
Derek:
I don’t know you and I certainly don’t want to come off being unloving , but I seriously doubt this revelation through dreams that you have cited are from our Lord and Saviour. Everyone dreams of things that at times seems to be fulfilled and it would be very easy to interpet or align such incidents with God speaking directly to you concerning someone else.
Sorry, This is why I have BIG questions with the supernatural part of my christian life. God can do miracles , supernatural, such as the work he did in my heart . Outside of this , I see danger in this approach….why didn’t God simply give the vision to the person involved.
Again Derek, nothing personal, I don’t know you…..you show me proof that your God’s messenger and I Will listen.
In Christ,
Derek on 01 Feb 2010 at 5:25 pm #
Jim, the wonderful thing about it is that I don’t think you do have to believe in the validity of spiritual gifts to be saved. But I thought I would post this Scripture anyway, in response to your question:
I believe that God gives each and every one of us different spiritual gifts so that we can use them to minister to one another. That’s why some prophecy and some don’t. Some speak in tongues and some don’t. Just because people abuse the spiritual gifts doesn’t mean they’re not valid.
As Paul says in the Scripture I posted above (1 Thessalonians 5:20-21), we are not to despise prophecy but to test it. I think this can extend to any spiritual gift, to be honest. Far too many times, certain charismatic churches do not test the gifts and I think this opens the door to demonic infiltration and the flesh. Many charismatic churches are unruly and have absolutely no order despite the council in 1 Corinthians. I honestly feel if more churches did more testing and had more order, there would be far less of the craziness that is typically seen by those who abuse spiritual gifts.
Also, as another response to your question, if God can simply tell the people himself, why did he send Nathan to prophecy to David about his adultery and not tell David himself? Why did he send Isaiah to Hezekiah? Agabus to Paul (who did have the gift of prophecy)? The point is, God speaks to whom He wants and only God knows His reasons. Maybe in one way, its to demonstrate the power truly is within Him to reveal sin through others, as one can mistake a dream or a vision for their mind if they themselves have it, but are even more convinced when someone who doesn’t even know of the situation approaches them about it because God told them.
Just keep an open mind and try not to be too dogmatic. For every unclear Scripture that cessationists try to use to disprove the spiritual gifts, there are even clearer Scriptures that suggest that they are operative (at the very least, in the apostle’s day). I know of none that says they aren’t operative, but certainly am open to discussing any you think you might have.
John on 01 Feb 2010 at 5:25 pm #
Derek: ” the New Testament are the writings of those who knew Jesus firsthand.”
Jesus didn’t know Luke firsthand.
And of course, this criteria of yours is not in scripture.
Lisa: ” Same with apostleship and being eyewitnesses to Christ.”
Nothing in scripture says apostleship requires being an eyewitness to Christ. Acts 1 says that you needed to have been with the disciples during Christ’s earthly ministry to be part of the college of the Twelve, but Paul didn’t fit that criteria.
Lisa Robinson on 01 Feb 2010 at 6:12 pm #
John, I don’t really want to go off topic but I ask that you consider this progression of passages that point to the apostles being eyewitnesses:
Consider John chapters 14-16. Jesus is giving direction to the apostles regarding the comforter that will come to help them spread the word about him. Specifically 14:26 and 16:12-13 speaks of them testifying to Christ.
We know they are apostles, because in Acts 1:2-3 it indicates that these are the ones chosen by Christ, who presented himself to the apostles so they can be his witnesses (1:8). These are not just any disciple because in 1:15-26, there had to be a 12th eyewitness to replace Judas, particularly noted in vs. 22.
Paul is an apostle selected by Christ in Acts 9, specifically noted in vs. 15. Consider the letters where Paul makes a big deal about defending his apostleship, particularly in Galatians and 2 Corinthians. Also, take a look at 1 Corinthians 15:7-9, where he talks about Christ appearing to him but he feels he was untimely born and he is least of the apostles. This is connected to Paul being an eyewitness.
EricW on 02 Feb 2010 at 7:38 am #
An older post from Michael Spencer aka Internet Monk (on hiatus from his blog due to cancer/illness), being rerun today on his blog by Chaplain Mike, that deals with the issues CMP has raised:
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/im-classic-thinking-about-the-canon-a-post-evangelical%e2%80%99s-view
ScottL on 02 Feb 2010 at 10:19 am #
Some good thoughts in that article. This is not so easily and neatly held together. I found these 2 statements helpful:
It is far more likely that the broader idea of “scripture” is functioning at the same time as the narrower concept of “canon.”
Thoughtful consideration of the issue of canon will lead the post-evangelical to see the effect the printed Bible has on the concept of scripture. To be able to hold up A BOOK and say “this is the word of God” is, from the standpoint of what God has actually inspired, misleading. God’s revelation was not of “the Bible” as a book, but of the writing that the Christian community considers to be Holy Scripture in its various forms. The continuing canonical conversations are not a witness against God speaking his Word to his people, but an expression of the conviction that God has spoken and works through his Word.
jim on 02 Feb 2010 at 11:59 am #
Derrek:
From one brother to another , this is not an attack on your relationship with Christ or whether or not your a Christian.
So, I guess what I’m getting at is that I see these “so called gifts” abused so often. It’s not any good if a prophet is right some of the time, or half of the time . How am I to believe your prophecy is from God unless your right all of the time! This is the proof that I would be looking for……you heal someone, or raise them from the dead then I’m a believer.
I can prophecy generally about any number of things that I can see occuring within my church, and if I detect sinful habits I certainly should talk in love to my brother concerning his or my acts. But never would I approach him with the attitude that I’m given this message from God himself. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone denies me a more hallowed approach with my brother.
Anyway, I have never actual seen many of these gifts displayed in any shape or form that has convinced me that they still exist.
But I have been wrong before!!!!!! ( ONCE ) LOL !!!!!
ScottL on 02 Feb 2010 at 2:35 pm #
Jim -
Something for consideration is this: Misuse and abuse should not lead to no use, but rather to biblical and healthy use.
Don’t let abuses and misuses keep you away from things, just like I wouldn’t want someone misrepresenting Christ to keep me away from Christ.
With regards to specific prophetic words/messages today, I’ve know many a people to receive words of knowledge or words of wisdom into people’s particular situations. They knew nothing about the person, but were given specific details about their situation. It’s not to sound spooky, but to make it real in seeing these gifts be used to help us grow, mature, be edified and challenged.
Of course, we need to be in relationship with our leaders and the wider body of Christ, as well as in the Scripture, so that we stay balanced and have a foundational starting point. But these things happen regularly. It’s not about having to make sure someone is right all the time, for I suppose we will have to wait until they pass on to accept anything. I am definitely sure that if someone truly prophesies or gives a word of knowledge in a spontaneous manner, and it comes true right then and there, you won’t need to know if they are right every time.
Of course, we have abuses. So it does scare us away. But it shouldn’t. Hey, counterfeits actually ensure us that there is the real thing out there.
Bryan on 04 Feb 2010 at 8:13 am #
It simply isn’t true that the Book of Mormon can be excluded from canon because of “inability to authenticate Joseph Smith as a prophet and its contradiction with previous revelation.”
Sure, there isn’t proof sufficient for you (or for me, while we’re at it). But I know plenty of bright LDS who have come to the opposite conclusion. And if conflicts with previous revelation mattered even a little bit, none of us should be Christian.
I say: open the gates! It’s such a little step from “all you need is your Bible” to “all you need is your Bible.”
C Michael Patton on 04 Feb 2010 at 9:01 am #
Bryan, I don’t understand what you are saying since you are simply saying that some people could attempt to justify their prophet. Of course anyone can attempt to, but this does not mean they have.
Everything Joseph Smith did and saw was done in a corner. Mormon’s take it by faith. Such is not the case with the Apostles.
Either way, what is your proposition. Do you believe the canon is “closed” and if so, by what authority?
Derek on 04 Feb 2010 at 9:01 am #
What does this mean? That the Old and New Testaments contradict each other? If so, where do you see that?
Jesus is prophesied throughout the pages of the Old Testament. The New Testament is the logical unfolding of the Old.
Bryan on 04 Feb 2010 at 11:48 am #
CMP (I see people call you that, and I hope it’s ok). ,
With respect to the LDS, I think they have very much convinced themselves that Joseph Smith was a legit prophet. I disagree and you disagree, but they accept him. A similar thing has happened with the Jehovah’s Witnesses and their founder and his successors. I don’t accept that line of argumentation, but it is based on the claim that the canon might not be closed.
I’m Catholic, so I think the canon is closed because the Church has said it is closed. I’m simply wondering if beginning with an assumption such as yours won’t sometimes lead smart people to expand the canon in ways you and I think are bogus. It’s not obvious how we are to exclude things like Gospel of Thomas (which certified smart person Elaine Pagels likes a lot) and Book of Mormon (which certified smart people like Mitt Romney likes a lot).
___________
Derek,
You and I see the NT that way, but all that is a case of the early Church re-reading the OT and, in many cases, reading into these texts things that nobody ever though was justified previously. St. Paul surely understood what was going on with those Christians when he was helping kill them. Absent his encounter with the Risen Christ, it seems unlikely he ever would have accepted the Christian arguments about the right way to read the Jewish scriptures.
I would suggest that the Messiah getting nailed to a Roman cross is not at all the logical unfolding of the OT. The logical unfolding of the OT is a Messiah who shows up and turns Isreal into the global hegemon. I don’t think anybody can read the Jewish scriptures, take a break at Malachi, and guess how it turns out. It’s a bigger twist than The Sixth Sense
cherylu on 04 Feb 2010 at 11:55 am #
Bryan,
I think Isaiah 53 fits in perfectly with an unfolding of the OT in the way it actaully turned out.
By the way, I agree with you 100% on what you said in this statement, “I’m simply wondering if beginning with an assumption such as yours won’t sometimes lead smart people to expand the canon in ways you and I think are bogus.”
EricW on 05 Feb 2010 at 8:03 am #
This book, coming later this year, appears relevant to this topic as well as the other threads on the canon:
(from the link at: euangelizomai.blogspot.com/2010/02/sacred-text.html)
http://michaelpahl.googlepages.com/thesacredtext
Bird, Michael F., and Michael W. Pahl, eds. The Sacred Text: Excavating the Texts, Exploring the Interpretations, and Engaging the Theologies of the Christian Scriptures. Gorgias Précis Portfolios 7. Piscataway, N.J.: Gorgias, 2010.
•GorgiasPress.com (publisher’s page)
Description
The Sacred Text presents an overview of the formation, reception, and interpretation of the Christian Scriptures. It is written by contributors from diverse Christian traditions and covers an array of topics about historical and doctrinal matters pertaining to Scripture. The first section on “The History of the Texts” deals with the formation of the Christian canon, including the status of the Septuagint, the concept of Scripture in the second century, the role of tradition in creating and interpreting these ancient texts, and issues about canon and authority. The second section, “The Interpretation of the Texts,” looks at hermeneutical issues such the origins of modern biblical criticism, the current interest in theological exegesis, post-modern approaches to Scripture, and new methodologies relating to biblical interpretation such as feminist and post-colonial approaches. The final section on “The Theological Status of the Texts as Scripture” deals with how the texts are regarded as Scripture in various faith communities, including those of Catholic, Orthodox, and Evangelical traditions, and also by twentieth century theologians such as Karl Barth and Rudolf Bultmann. The Sacred Text is a solid introduction to questions of how the Scriptures came to be, how they should be read, and what they mean to different Christian communities.
Contents
•Introduction: From Manuscript to MP3 – Michael F. Bird
The History of the Texts
•The Septuagint as Scripture in the Early Church – Karen H. Jobes
•Scripture in the Second Century – Tomas Bokedal
•Scripture and Tradition: Seeking a Middle Path – Michael W. Pahl
•Scripture and Canon – John C. Poirier
The Interpretation of the Texts
•Scripture and Biblical Criticism – Jamie A. Grant
•Scripture and Theological Exegesis – Thorsten Moritz
•Scripture and Postmodern Epistemology – Robert Shillaker
•Scripture and New Interpretive Approaches: Feminist & Post-Colonial – Jennifer G. Bird
The Theological Status of the Texts as Scripture
•Catholic Doctrine on Scripture: Inspiration, Inerrancy, and Interpretation – Brant Pitre
•Scripture in Eastern Orthodoxy: Canon, Tradition, and Interpretation -George Kalantzis
•Still Sola Scriptura: An Evangelical Perspective on Scripture – James M. Hamilton Jr.
•The Word as Event: Barth and Bultmann on Scripture – David Congdon
Lisa Robinson on 05 Feb 2010 at 9:19 am #
Eric, I am so getting that book. Looks interesting!
#John1453 on 05 Feb 2010 at 9:32 am #
Re Bryan’s comment, “I don’t think anybody can read the Jewish scriptures, take a break at Malachi, and guess how it turns out. It’s a bigger twist than The Sixth Sense”
Exactly.
That’s what Paul meant when he talked of the “mystery” now revealed.
regards,
#John
My Reader To You: 09.02.10 on 09 Feb 2010 at 6:08 am #
[...] Michael Patton (from Parchment and Pen) argues that the Christian canon is atleast theoretically open: In short, the argument that I am making is that the canon is closed only to the degree that God is no longer adding to it. But it is not closed in the sense that God cannot add to it were He to make an unforeseen movement in the history of revelation. The primary reason why we have not added anything to the canon in the last two-thousand years is simply because God has not used an authenticated apostle or prophet to speak His word and add to it in two-thousand years. Only in this sense is the canon “closed.” [...]
hmkjr on 11 Feb 2010 at 1:17 pm #
I don’t think this view should both those evangelizing mormons, I am going to discuss Hebrews 1:1-2 with my mormon co-worker.