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Can Homosexuals Be Christian?
by C Michael PattonJanuary 4th, 2010
536 Comments
I have been asked this quite a few times over the years and the issue was brought up again recently. Can homosexuals be Christians? Or, better, is there such a thing as a “homosexual Christian.” Many would believe that someone who engages in a homosexual life style is necessarily excluded from the Kingdom of God unless they repent. Repentance here would mean a change of thinking about and, shortly following, action to change this lifestyle. In other words, while some would be willing to say that a homosexual can be saved, their salvation guarantees their change of lifestyle within a short period of time.
While I agree with those who say that homosexuality is a terrible sin (Lev. 18:22, 20:13 Rom. 1:27; 1 Cor. 6:6; 1 Tim. 1:10), I do not believe it is one that is outside the realm of a believer’s carnality. Neither do I believe that if one practices in homosexuality their entire life that they are necessarily excluded from the Kingdom of God. I hope that people do not misunderstand my purpose here. I, in no way endorse homosexual behavior or seek to relativise its abominable standing before the Lord. But I do think that we who are not tempted in such a way often fail to see the seriousness of the struggle that people go through who engage in this sin.
Sexual sin and temptation is part of everyone’s life. We are born with a drive toward fulfillment of this God-given part of our humanity. Some will deny this drive because of God’s calling in their lives (e.g. singleness). Yet sin has corrupted this drive and we are all born infected with sin. Because of upbringing, genetics, cultural influences, and other factors, people will experience this corruption to greater and lesser degrees. I personally have never felt any inclination toward expressing my sexual corruption in a way that was focused on the same sex. Why? Not necessarily because of good choices I have made, but because the genetics, upbringing, and influences were not there. I have just never had that sinful bent within me that compels me to lust after someone of the same sex. Don’t get me wrong. I have a sinful sexual bent, but it is of the more natural kind. This does not justify it or make me more innately righteous than the homosexual, it is just a fact that this is not a sin that I have ever had to deal with.
I thank God that this is the case because I know that whatever sinful bent I have it will get the better of me sometime. It is just the way it goes living with corruption. I also know that I will not be alleviated of my bents until the restoration of my body at the resurrection. I just have to do whatever I can to master it until then. And as the U2 song goes, “some days are better than others.” I can identify with sinners because I am one. I can identify with those who have a bent, because I have one (many actually). Therefore, when I see someone giving in to the bent of homosexuality, I am saddened. My heart goes out to them because their problem is essentially the same as mine. We have a corrupted nature that causes us to give in to our bents.
Now, back to the question of the hour. Can homosexuals be Christians? This is really a theological question that evidences a lack of understanding about sin and redemption. It reveals a major misconception about the nature of sin, placing homosexuality in its own category because of its depraved nature. While I do believe that homosexuality is a worse sin than many others (that is right, not all sins are equal like some would have us believe), I don’t believe that those who have that bent should be seen differently than others.
We could ask the question this way: Can people who have sinful bents be Christians? Of course. Who else can be? Christ was the only one that did not have a sinful bent. Okay then, how about this: Can people who have really bad sinful bents be Christians? Again, the only biblical answer is yes. People who have really bad sinful bents can be Christians. Really, the question that is being asked is this: Can sinners be Christians? Again, I say, is there any other kind?
Some would respond and say that while they are willing to concede that homosexuals can be Christians, they must be in the process of overcoming this sinful behavior. In other words, they must have consistent and perpetual victory over this bent. Hold on there. While I agree that homosexuals can and many times do have victory over this bent to the point where they redeem themselves completely from this lifestyle, I don’t necessarily think that this is always going to happen. I would say that in my life there are some bents that I feel I have had victory over, and some that remain as a nagging persistent web. This web is one of deception and destruction that can easily trip us up. Listen to the writer of the book of Hebrews:
“Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith” (Hebrews 12:1-2).
The writer of Hebrews says that it is “easy” to get entangled in this web. The passage warns of the ten euperistaton hamartian–literally, “the easy ensnaring sin.” I believe that the primary referent for “the easily ensnaring sin” is the sin of unbelief (the subject of the book), but this sin of unbelief expresses itself in the sin of the hour. In other words, the sin of unbelief leads forth to our practicing of our particular bent. Most importantly, it is “easy” to fall into this.
Again, while I agree that homosexuals can and should be overcoming this sin, it could be the case that they have become entangled in it. This entanglement may be the very acts of homosexuality or it might be the plight of struggling with it until redemption. It is no different for those of us who are not bent toward a homosexual lifestyle. Some of our most serious bents may plague us, literally, until Kingdom come.
Many refer to Paul admonishing the Corinthians to look back to their victory over sin, implying that they did not practice such things any longer or were completely delivered from them. One of these sins is homosexuality.
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
While this seems straight forward upon a cursory reading, I don’t believe that it supports the case that homosexuals can’t be Christians for two primary reasons. First, the people to whom Paul was writing were sinners and were in the process of being rebuked by Paul. Notice here just three chapters back:
“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?” (1 Cor. 3:1-3).
They were fleshly. The sins described in 6:9-10 are fleshly sins. This means that the Corinthians were not necessarily doing well. Yet Paul says they were washed and sanctified. Now either Paul has a slight case of amnesia or we have to understand 6:9-11 differently which brings me to the second reason I believe that this passage cannot be used in support of the person who says homosexuals cannot be Christians. Paul identifies Christians with Christ, not with their sinful disposition. In Pauline thought, people who are clothed in Christ’s righteousness are no longer named according to their sinful bent, even if that bent may continue to entangle them. The Corinthians were entangled in their bents to be sure, but Paul sees them through the righteousness of Christ. This is why Paul could say “such were some of you.” This does not make their sinfulness any less severe, but it does say that Christ’s redemption, in Pauline theology, has redeemed the sinner, while still in a sinning state. Those without the covering of Christ’s righteousness are still identified with their sin in the eyes of God. Therefore, understanding this context, it is true, fornicators, thieves, covetous, homosexuals and all unrighteous people (those not covered by Christ’s righteousness) will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But thankfully, we have been covered by His righteousness and set apart, even though we are still sinners.
One more thing. I often hear this concession: While I believe that homosexuals can be saved, they cannot believe that homosexuality is approved by God or attempt to justify their sin. While I understand and agree with this to some degree, I still hold back and say that this is not always the case. We all have ways of justifying our bents, whatever they may be. Sometimes we minimize their seriousness, while other times we outright deny them. It is also often the case that we just do not ever deal with them. Peter lived twelve years after the resurrection of Christ justifying his belief that Jews were better than Gentiles. He lived twelve years after becoming a Christian believing that he, by virtue of being a Jew, was so much better than Gentiles that he would not even set foot in their house. Speaking to the Gentile Cornelius and his family, he said, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean” (Acts 10:28). What if Peter had died in year eleven? He would have died living his entire Christian life as a prideful racist. Racism is spoken of more in the New Testament as a mark of ungodliness than homosexuality. Therefore, while I believe that the conviction of the Holy Spirit should be there and it should change our hearts, we have this uncanny bent to justify our sinfulness to ourselves and to others or to just ignore it.
Having said all this, we all need to recognize the utter sinfulness of sexual perversion. Homosexuality is a sin, and a terribly destructive one at that. But we need to be careful and gracious with those who struggle with this sin, understanding that the struggle against sin is in the plight of us all. The solution is for us to be non-compromising to the political correct agenda of our culture to turn all sin into a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice, but at the same time to be gracious, knowing that the only hope that anyone has is to be covered in Christ’s righteousness, not our own.
Can a homosexual be Christian. Yes. All sinners can be Christians. Indeed, all Christians are sinners. Let us all view this important issue in light of a deep understanding of the plight of sinfulness and may God help us to overcome the resulting bents.
“Sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it” (Genesis 4:7).
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536 Comments
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1
Like how you focus on Gods grace and through the path of salvation, they can be saved…
Too many times, people focus on the sin and not the heart, like you mentioned.
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Yet another gracious, balanced post, Michael!
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Thank you Michael for in those paragraphs. You have demonstrated again your consistent theological thoughts especially the essentials and nonessentials, love, grace,charity.
If I may add a comment. Yes, we are all sinners. Like I tell my friends, colleagues, students in Bible class we must TURN AWAY from our SIN. Make a conscious effect and open our life to the Holy Spirit and if and when we fall God is there to ‘lend us a hand’ so that we can continue in fellowship with HIM.
Blessings
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I need to reread a few times; my initial reaction is (1) I agree and think the perspective you share is healthy for the person relating to those tempted by homosexuality but (2) this is not what we or the Bible teach to the homosexual. Rather we teach that sin is of the old nature and we spur others on toward life in the new nature.
That is, I like what you say as a warning to those who spur others on in an unhealthy way but too many are taking this teaching to the homosexual to alleviate the guilt and the emptiness found in sin. Or worse, some teach this (or go a step further saying it’s not sin) to the sinner as part of their disdain of the church for the ugliness we’ve demonstrated or as part of their own inability to experience victory over sin. All understandable but not reason to deviate from the bottom line that homosexuality is sin and as any sin, must be overcome by grace.
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Thanks Michael for presenting what I think is a very balanced post on such a controversial topic. Another great read on P&P!
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I think the biggest difficulty I have in wrestling with the issue of the sinfulness of homosexuality is that it doesn’t seem, well, sinful. By that I mean the few homosexuals I know (I’m happily heterosexual) aren’t murdering, raping and stealing (the bad sins). They seem as happy as many married couples I know and it’s difficult for me to condemn their practices if they’re not harming anyone else. Maybe they’re not as happy as they appear? Or we can be happy in our sinfulness?
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Del – I found your comment interesting. I get your point but I was thinking the opposite because I haven’t had any one practice those “other” sins in front of me and say they were ok. Homosexuality is different not only in the general stuff going on in society to say it is ok but there’s the practical issues of what do I do about a close relative bringing their partner around or the gay couple who want to be part of our small group, etc…
I want to be open, loving, kind, etc. but the sin is in full display in front of me at a personal level.
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“I have a sinful sexual bent, but it is of the more natural kind.”
I don’t know how to better express this, but as someone who has struggled a good portion of his life with Same-Sex-Attraction, and trying to honor God through a denial of my flesh I would suggest that phrases like this are what lend a lot of unnecessary shame to people who are trying to honor God and may in fact not have sinned in that arena yet.
While every area of our lives is marred by the sinfulness of the fall, thinking in terms of natural vs un-natural sins may be prudent. I do agree that sins are not all of the same consequence or are ‘not equal’ but we all merit the same ‘guilty verdict’ from God without his Son stepping in on our behalf.
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Brother,
Thanks for a thoughtful post. How do you address Romans 1:32 and 1 Thess. 4 which appear to teach that wrath is visited on those who “practice such things”?
Being helped by your thoughts,
T-
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Jonathan,
I understand the sentiment of your post. . . but in saying that his sin is of the “natural kind” Michael is simply using the language of Romans 1:26-27. Sexual relations between men and women are “natural” because that is how God created us to work. Same sex relations are “unnatural” because they go against God’s created order. I don’t know that we should shy away from biblical language, especially in conversation with other believers.
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Let me ask you to post this same comment using the adulterer and the other sexual sins. They all have a sexual bent that they say is the way they were born; that they are not hurting anyone; that if love is in it it can not be bad, after all God is Love.
I agree with Rick that the only reason that the homosexual behavior is being singled out is that they put their behavior out there and state that we are the same as you.
In the first chapter of Romans it states that homosexual behavior is an abomination to God and he turns his back on them and and leaves them to their sins. Is their another sin that it states that God turns his back on you for continuing to commit?
This does not mean that we beat them up or kill them. We are to show them God’s love but we do not pat them on the back and tell them that they are covered with Jesus blood and they will be ok.
The bible also says that the ones who condone the sinful behavior will be corrupted by it also and suffer judgment for it.
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God
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Michael, great post. As usual , balanced, biblical and understanding. Loving the sinner. Hating the sin. So often we say this and yet we hate both the sin & the sinner. And the heart of God I believe is broken.
Del, I see your point. But, if we are to honor God’s word we are forced to call this sin what it is… an abomination beford God. And yet, how conviently we forget the other sins that are listed as abominations beford God. I think Satan loves it when we obsess over the sins of others and ignore our own sinful bents.
So often there is a gigantic plank sticking out of my eye and yet I fail to look in the mirror.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
4
I think Jonathan A. is a good example of the difference between a saved sinner and a unsaved sinner. He expressed he’s “struggling” , there’s a heart difference between struggling with a sin and embracing it. A struggle shows a conviction of sin and evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit.
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Before responding, try substituting the word “obese” in for the word “homosexual”. Are they similar sins? Look at what Ezekiel said about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Ezekiel 16:49-50 – “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”
Can fat people be Christians? Or is their ongoing gluttony something that needs to be repented of first?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
7
I think you ought to be careful, Michael. The world is praising you. Homosexuality isn’t like “other sins.” Paul specifically says that sexual immorality is a different type of sin. It is a sin against other and the self. It is a sin that seeks to reverse creation itself. So, No, I’m not going to substitute obesity or running red lights for it.
Having said that, the other issue I would take with your post is that it assumes a “repentantless” grace, or a scheme of sanctification that allows one to remain in willful unrepentant sin. What is the difference between someone in the world practicing homosexuality and someone in the Church? They believe something different about Christ? Your appeal to our fallen nature is the same thing to which the heretics in 2 Peter appeal. I’m wondering if you would say the same thing for murderers here? Is it OK to perpetually murder as long as I believe in Jesus as my savior? Sexual immorality falls under the same category as murder in Scripture, even though our generation doesn’t get that.
Instead, Paul is clear not only to say that “so were some of you,” but that those who practice such things will not enter the kingdom of God. Notice the contrast is not that they were once sinners and now they are not, but that they practiced such things and now they were washed from practicing them. He’s not saying that the Corinthians are sinless. He’s saying that their practices have changed. He states this same thing in Ephesians: “For this you know with certainty, that no sexually immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
I’m not saying a person can’t struggle, but the kicker for me was when you said that one could habitually practice it and not even acknowledge that it was a sin. I don’t see this as true for any sin, especially the bigger ones. Rebellion coupled with a void of the Spirit toward the Word of God does not a Christian make.
So I see these assumptions in your post: falleness allows for any sin to be practiced habitually, grace is given apart from repentance, all sins are of the same caliber, and homosexuality is to be viewed as acceptable in practice, but to be verbally declared as evil, or at least, not what is the best. Here’s my final question then: “Why would Paul tell the Corinthians to have nothing to do with a so-called believer who practiced this if they were still Christians in good standing with God?
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Thanks for the post. The church needs this conversation. Here are a few of my thoughts.
I have often thought that if Jesus were alive today, homosexuals would be one group of “sinners” that he would hang out with. On the other hand, what about the practical problem of how a biblical worshiping community reaches out to the gay community? Do we invite unrepentant gay couples to our church services? If not, how will they learn about the hope of healing through Jesus?
If we do though, how that might that affect our children? They will see that gay people are interesting, loving people whose struggle to “come out” has often made them very honest and sincere. In some ways I think there are good things we can learn from gays. They will challenge our comfortable preconceived notions of gays. Some may appear more attractive than many of the straitlaced “righteous” church goers. However, I think, we need not be afraid if we bring their lifestyle into the light both compassionately and non-dogmatically.
In reality, we know that gender confusion is more than a sin. It is not genetic. it is not natural. It is a belief about ones self that is influenced and shaped by many factors including the acceptance of the gay lifestyle in society. I think we are justified to be concerned about how the gay community influences what vulnerable youth believe about themselves just as they begin to develop sexual awareness. Once a young person starts seeing themselves as gay, it cannot just be willed away.
Homosexuality is not healthy, mentally or physically. One bit of evidence is that homosexuals are more likely than heteros to have psychological issues (even after controlling for factors such as social stigma). This points to the deep heart roots of the problem.
As Christians we need to support the work of groups attempting to make
homosexual reparative therapy, such as NARTH (www.narth.com), a recognized healing option in the medical community.
So compassion and telling the truth, healing and repentance, prevention and intervention are all necessary components of responding to this epidemic affecting our society.
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0
BTW, is it simply the fact that a person is deceived when they don’t believe God’s rebuke that affords them immunity to the condemnation of that rebuke?
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Eclectic Christian: Why do you equate obesity and gluttony? There are a number of reasons for obesity that have nothing to do with gluttony. And there are a number of gluttons who aren’t obese.
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Ezekiel 16:49-50 – “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”
In other words, they didn’t perpetuate and preserve human creation/life, which is the same sin they were committing in a different form when the angels got there. This is why God came down to destroy it. The sin they committed while the angels were there is simply an extension of this one.
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With the exception of eschatology I have never agreed with someone’s blog more. It scares me a little.
dm
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I see this whole issue from the perspective of someone called out of homosexuality to live a new and different life in Christ Jesus.
There are only two types of people in the world: sinners destined for hell and sinners destined for Heaven (aka saints).
To clearly discern who is and who is not a Christian is not an easy task. As Jesus spoke in the parables of the soils, there are some who appear to be Christian but when revealed by the difficulties of life struggles are not. The Lord said we will know true believers by their fruit . . . trouble is, we want to judge them now and not wait until they are mature.
As Christians we are new creations in Christ Jesus and yet with the sin nature still active in our lives. We still struggle with sin. Sin is still able to exercise its deceiving power over us. Whatever the flesh once manifested in our lives—some of the myriad forms of evil—we must remember is an area of weakness that needs to be guarded very carefully because, in an instant, we can return to the same sin no matter how long we have been Christians. True Christians mourn over this return to sin and turn back to God in repentance.
Thanks, Jermayn, for reminding us to see everyone as fallen away from God’s crowing act of creation and in need of a loving, gracious Savior. Good thing God demonstrated His love toward us, while we were yet sinners.
Del, I think God called us to be holy, to be set apart for His purpose and glory, rather than our personal happiness.
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@Nick,
Agreed that there is not a one to one correlation, and there are exceptions to the rule, but people use the exceptions to condone the general rule.
By the way, I am obese, and yes, it came from gluttony. I am however working to change that.
@Hodge,
Despite what I wrote earlier, I tend to agree with you on a number of points. John’s Epistles talk about the effect of persisting in sin.
But when you say that “homosexuality isn’t like other sins” I will draw your attention to the verse you quoted from 1 Cor 6.
“Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.”
According to Paul, the sexually immoral and the greedy both have a significant problem. Unless we have new life in Christ and forsake the old ways we will not inherit the kingdom of God.
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You should delete this post as its embarrassing in that you do not clearly distuingish between homsexuality (orientation) and homosex (sexual act). Are you sayign that someone with a gay orientation is in sin. Surely not! yet you do not make this clear.
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What really blows me away about God’s salvation plan is that when we are saved, we are forever delivered from God’s wrath! Sanctification, however, is a process, and we WILL meet with God’s discipline along the way. If you have a stubborn sin, He will have a powerful detergent, and He might require you to add some work to the cleanup.
Also, I think we sometimes overlook a subtle yet important (to me) part of the story of the Prodigal Son: he didn’t return to his family solely because he was sorry for his rebellion – he ran out of money!
Even so, his father welcomed him with tears in his eyes and love in his heart. And until we understand our Heavenly Father’s eternal love for us, we won’t quite understand how He can love us as sinners.
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Eclectic,
I agree with you in the sense that you’re referring. All sin separates from God, and all rebellion against God has devastating effects. My point is that Paul seems to indicate in v. 18 that sexual immorality is a different kind of sin than other types of sin; and as an “anti-creational” sin, it works more directly against what is God’s beneficial order for humanity. This delineation can be seen in the law. Death is the sentence for sexual immorality. A fine is the sentence for theft. It does seem clear by varying punishments, both in the OT and the NT, for sins that the weight of sins vary as well. My point was not in any way to diminish the seriousness of all of our situations. We are all sinners in need of grace, but the thrust of what I was saying is that grace comes through a repentant faith, with which I think most of us here would agree.
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Thanks for the post. The church needs this conversation. Here are a few of my thoughts.
I have often thought that if Jesus were alive today, homosexuals would be one group of “sinners” that he would hang out with. On the other hand, what about the practical problem of how a biblical worshiping community reaches out to the gay community? Do we invite unrepentant gay couples to our church services? If not, how will they learn about the hope of healing through Jesus?
If we do though, how might that that affect our children? They will see that gay people are interesting, loving people whose struggle to “come out” has often made them very honest and sincere. In some ways I think there are good things we can learn from gays. They will challenge our comfortable preconceived notions of gays. Some may appear more attractive than many of the straitlaced “righteous” church goers. However, I think, we need not be afraid if we bring their lifestyle into the light both compassionately and non-dogmatically.
In reality, we know that gender confusion is more than a sin. It is not genetic. it is not natural. It is a belief about ones self that is influenced and shaped by many factors including the acceptance of the gay lifestyle in society. I think we are justified to be concerned about how the gay community influences what vulnerable youth believe about themselves just as they begin to develop sexual awareness. Once a young person starts seeing themselves as gay, it cannot just be willed away.
Homosexuality is not healthy, mentally or physically. One bit of evidence is that homosexuals are more likely than heteros to have psychological issues (even after controlling for factors such as social stigma). This points to the deep heart roots of the problem.
As Christians we need to support the work of groups attempting to make
homosexual reparative therapy, such as NARTH (www.narth.com), a recognized healing option in the medical community.
So compassion and telling the truth, healing and repentance, prevention and intervention are all necessary components of responding to this epidemic affecting our society.
Like or Dislike:
0
Also consider that there is a delineation between our internal condition and our external conduct. Our conduct towards others is one of the supreme concerns, as Christ said that after loving God with your best (when we are sincere about something, we sometimes say we put our heart in it; God want us to put our WHOLE heart in Him), you must love your neighbor as yourself.
Suppose, however, that Iam homosexual but do not conduct myself outwardly anymore in that way – am I different merely because I indulge in fantasy and not a real partner?
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i cant agree with that article , homosexual cant be christian , it is same as saying righteous man in old testament that practices homosexuality is righteous!
we are sinners , but there are different sins now when we became christians we do not sin as we used to , because we hate sin now!
thats difference , i can sin but sin is not intentional now ! when i wasnt christian i loved sin , when i become christian i hate sin!
therefore christian cant be homosexual! he is still slave to sin!
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Sin of a sexual nature; be it homosexual or heterosexual is a difficult vice to overcome. But to allow for one to believe one is more difficult than another, (hence it’s okay if you stumble once and awhile) is not being true to the word of God. All sin, no matter the type or cause separates us from God. To allow for excuses i.e., “upbringing, genetics, cultural influences, and other factors” lessons the responsibility of the one committing the sin.
Many within the homosexual community dismiss the notion that their lifestyle is a sinful lifestyle and at times seek excuses from the list CMP provides. Yet heterosexuals who commit a lifestyle of sexual sins do not necessarily reach for excuses, after all, its natural if one has a willing partner. How can one truly repent of something they believe not to be a sin? Allowing for excuses in lieu of the word of God further perpetuates the sin as now witnessed in certain denominations.
Can a homosexual be a Christian, maybe? But only to the same degree a heterosexual who suffers from sexual sins overcomes theirs; by the grace of God.
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I’d like to note that the “Are all sins equal?” link doesn’t work.
Other than that, I’d like to second Jonathan A’s comment that the other sexual deviation is the “more natural kind.” As a heterosexual, it doesn’t directly affect me — I know you meant the more common kind. No sin is fully “natural” as in Genesis 1-2 natural, as I’m sure everyone here is aware.
But more generally: yes, a balanced and fair post. Thanks for your insight.
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Sorry about the link. It is fixed.
Seems to be some good conversation going on here.
I have not had a chance to go through all the comments. I have been in meetings all day. I hope to be able to soon.
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When I was younger I had a friend (my best friend at the time) who was struggling with homosexuality, and my reasoning with him was very similar to yours. We were teenagers at the time, and as I struggled with the usual sexual temptations that accompany adolescence, I tried to convince him that we were really in the same boat. “I am struggling to overcome heterosexual temptations, and you homosexual temptations, so let’s just try not to be sexually tempted at all.”
Now that I am married though, I realize how unhelpful and unsatisfactory that really was for him. A heterosexual man can at look at his sexual attracting to women, and while acknowledging that he needs to control and channel this through the right avenues, at least know that this attraction is something that God built into him for a useful purpose. A homosexual man cannot do this, at least if he wants his view to be Biblical directed.
And so he cannot help but feel that this is somehow in a different category than your or my temptation, that there is something constitutionally wrong about him, some deep perversion that goes to the core of who he is and which he seems powerless to change.
And it doesn’t help that he can’t seem to get a consistent answer from Christians who are trying to help him. Should be pray to God to change this constitution, to repair this perversion? If so, what is he to do if God does not answer his prayer? Is he just supposed to deal with it, struggle against it his whole life, live a life of celibacy? Did God build this into him with that in mind or is this just a desperate man’s only recourse. Should he get counseling? Should he just try to be straight, get married and try to make it work out for the best?
My friend eventually left the faith, and I almost don’t blame him. He never got any good answers for his questions. God never answered his desperate prayers to change and he could not understand why God would either make him this way or else leave him this way. What can you say to that?
I think that your response to this issue may be as good as anyone can do while trying to maintain a Biblical view, but I’m afraid that for many, it’s just not good enough.
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Let me describe two Christians both are Gay (or perhaps bisexual) and I have every reason to believe are (or were) God fearing:
One man fights the passions that he believes are sinful but occasionally falls to temptation. When he fails it is inevitably in cheep casual relationships of the most sorted type. After each affair he is overcome with guilt repents and promises God and Himself he will not fall again. Sadly he does again and again.
The Second Man accepted that his homosexuality was the result of a broken and fallen world where no mere human being could hope to be truly holy in the sight of God apart from Christ’s sacrificial blood. He determined to live a life of love and faithfulness to a man that he loves and try’s to be faithful to him.
I knew both of these men the first was my Uncle the Second was (for a brief time my Priest). The first man dead of Aids nearly 20 years ago he left a wife and three children behind and he was as an aside a pillar in his local Baptist Church.
The Second Man ministers to a small working class Anglo Catholic inner-city parish and is a chaplain at a local mental hospital. To this day he serves faithfully his partner, His church and his community.
Which of these men are the most faithfully Christian I once knew and am now no longer sure.
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Hodge,
Re: Post 16
Concerning repentance. I think if someone understood fully that homosexuality was a sin and basically said they didn’t care and were just going to keep living in sin because they knew better than God (which is essentially what they are saying) I think I might agree with you. However, most of the homosexuals who claim to be Christian’s I’ve come into contact with are either genuinely struggling with their “bent” or are simply not convinced that homosexuality is a sin. Now granted they have to do all sorts of hermeneutic and language tricks in order to skirt all the verses in the Bible which seem to address homosexuality, however some of them are genuinely (at least in my opinion) convinced that they are not sinning. How do we handle that? Is it possible for a Christian to be deceived concerning the righteousness of the manner in which they live, even to the point of thinking something that is sin is not sin, and still be a Christian? Or are Christians unable to be deceived on such an issue and as a corollary all deceived persons unsaved?
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Let me describe two Christians both are Pedofiles (or perhaps bisexual pedofiles) and I have every reason to believe are (or were) God fearing:
One man fights the passions that he believes are sinful but occasionally falls to temptation. When he fails it is inevitably in cheep casual relationships of the most sorted type. After each affair he is overcome with guilt repents and promises God and Himself he will not fall again. Sadly he does again and again.
The Second Man accepted that his pedofilia was the result of a broken and fallen world where no mere human being could hope to be truly holy in the sight of God apart from Christ’s sacrificial blood. He determined to live a life of love and faithfulness to a boy that he loves and try’s to be faithful to him.
I knew both of these men the first was my Uncle the Second was (for a brief time my Priest). The first man dead of Aids nearly 20 years ago he left a wife and three children behind and he was as an aside a pillar in his local Baptist Church.
The Second Man ministers to a small working class Anglo Catholic inner-city parish and is a chaplain at a local mental hospital. To this day he serves faithfully his child-partner, His church and his community.
Which of these men are the most faithfully Christian I once knew and am now no longer sure.
It’s a horrible story both ways, but it begs the question. Is it moral or immoral so that the individual cannot be God-fearing and practice it at the same time; and as an abomination, should it be stopped immediately at all costs? Rom 1 seems to indicate that there is a belief and truth issue involved within the whole thing, so that this isn’t simply a matter of someone overcoming it by itself, but it is connected to something else. Either way, these sort of argument through experience doesn’t help discover the nature of the issue. I’ve known plenty of pedofiles who could be caste in both roles above. They are real people with real problems and pain. This does not justify their remaining in their sin.
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“Neither do I believe that if one practices in homosexuality their entire life that they are necessarily excluded from the Kingdom of God.”
Whatever happened to repenting and turning from our evil ways? Yes, all sinners can become saints, but one cannot continue to “practice” that which is evil and be a Christian. Practice is the key word here; if one practices the the sin of homosexuality, he/she is not truly repentant. I know when I’ve done wrong; I feel guilt and pray for forgiveness and the the power to overcome. Most who claim to be homosexual Christians embrace their homosexuality! There is no repentance, they only want to be “accepted the way they are.” Often I hear from them “don’t judge me or my lifestyle, but their own words incriminate them; they know deep down that this is all wrong, yet refuse to submit to the Word!
Can homosexuals BECOME CHRISTIANS-yes. Does God want them to remain that way-no.
Listen folks, sometimes you just have to take a stand on some issues.
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Wow! That is one of the best and I mean THE BEST essay or article I have ever read about the subject!
Your wisdom can only come from a real Christian that struggles daily and has learned a thing or two in life the hard way. I have always thought all along that we have been glorifying this despicable sin by categorizing it and setting it apart with it’s own identity and self fulfilling fate. We actually empower it by treating it as such.
Romans 1 and 2 support what you are saying and I truly believe the only way out for those caught up in such a behavior is to not see themselves as such but to see themselves as sinners and no different that the rest of us except that the stench from their actions is a little more nauseating perhaps, but the same fire that burns in them to result in their particular sin, burns within us all. Hence we see various other types of results from ourselves even though it is not in that realm, it still amounts to being just as evil and sinful because sin is sin and it all results in death.
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As someone said, sanctification is a process.
We have acouple in our church who have been living together for years. They have a couple of kids together. They have been getting more involved in our congregation and leadership has been talking about approaching them regarding their situation.
Well, a couple of days ago they came in and asked about getting married. We had not addressed them. But the Holy Spirit did.
The point is that for years they were not ready to repent. But would we say that they were unsaved during this time? Would we say people living together can not be truly saved because they are “practicing” sin? No, they just had to reach the point where they were willing to submit to God’s plan in that area of their lives. It’s just part of the process.
The same can be true of homosexuals. The Holy Spirit will deal with the sin in their lives, but it might not happen the day of salvation, so they may indeed be homosexual Christians for some period of time.
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“The point is that for years they were not ready to repent. But would we say that they were unsaved during this time? Would we say people living together can not be truly saved because they are “practicing” sin? No, they just had to reach the point where they were willing to submit to God’s plan in that area of their lives. It’s just part of the process.”
I think this is the problem: We’re all approaching this from different views of grace. I don’t believe these people were Christians because a Christian must repent in order to become a Christian. Can he or she sin? Yes. Can a Christian practice unrepentant sin which he or she knows the Church says is wrong according to Scripture? No.
“1 Jn 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin . 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin , because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin , because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God”
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“Can a Christian practice unrepentant sin which he or she knows the Church says is wrong according to Scripture? No.”
Sure, if they have a different interpretation than “the” church. I am not justifying this, but there are many who seek to find fellowship around those who share their interpretation to remedy the conflict. Think of legalistic Christians (which, in my opinion, there are many practicing and it is clear that it is wrong). They go to legalistic churches to make themselves feel better. Homosexual Christians may find a Homosexual church.
Problem: There are plenty of legalistic churches and homosexual churches.
Nothing has changed. The mood of the religious culture can sometimes create groups that are not representative of true Christianity, but nonetheless, have true and decieved Christians who know that they are in rebellion against the rest of “the” church.
It was this was in Christ’s day. Did Peter know that prejudice was wrong? He should have, but the cultural religion of the day had moved in a different direction.
I have seen KJV only churches. Very legalistic. An argument could be made that a practicing legalistic Christian is much worse than a practicing homosexual. Can a KJV Only person be saved? ….
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Well, Michael, actually I said the “Church,” not a church. There’s a big difference there. The historic Christian Church is unified on the message. I agree that churches can be in rebellion against the Church, but they know the message of the Church. That is all that is necessary, whether they believe it or not.
I disagreed with your post that Peter was racist for twelve years. He was observing what he thought was the OT law of separation. Racism and the issue with the Jews observing separation laws are two different things. His was a misunderstanding of how to obey, not participating in a rebellion in which he willfully persisted. This is a fact since we know once Paul made him aware of the correct theology of how that works out in the Jewish-Gentile Church, he repented.
Is legalism worse than homosexuality? No, it’s not. It might equal it in some cases, but it certainly isn’t worse. Only a legalism that undermined the gospel, however, would be equated at best. KJV Onlyism is absurd, but not legalistic in my mind. I know churches that are legalistic and these churches tend to be that way as well though, so I would simply say that what is not Christian is not Christian whether that takes the form of false Christian religion that enables the practice of legalism or false Christian religion that enables the practice of homosexuality.
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Michael,
Thanks for your calm and reasoned perspective. If we rephrase your question: Can God save a homosexual? I think the answer is obvious. Does He? I hope He does. Just like I hope He saves alcoholics, swindlers, and the covetous. These people are all on shaky ground and may have no assurance of their salvation, but will some be saved? I imagine some will be. God can do whatever He wants—and I do not think we have enough information in the Bible to say categorically He wouldn’t in some circumstances.
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CMP,
Nice one bringing up the story of Peter as I think this is a very good example of someone who was for a time unrepentantly sinning. To his credit he did eventually repent, though Paul had to lay the smackdown on him in order to do so. However, even if Peter had not repented and had continued to believe that he was right and Paul was wrong I would not consider Peter unsaved. Certainly deceived (as all of us are to greater and lesser extents) but not unsaved.
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Right, and I would certainly see Christ’s admonition against the Pharisee’s legalism, “brood of vipers” “blind leading the blind” etc., as as serious a rebuke as I see in all of scripture. Legalistic Christians can certainly be Christians, but they are, in my understanding of Scripture, the worst kind. The KJV only may be deceived into a practice which is sinful (i.e. preaching a severely distorted Gospel), “Blind leaders of the blind”, but, they, nonetheless, CAN be saved even though they live in legalistic pride. Should they repent? Absolutely. Will they if they are Christians? I hope.
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Michael,
Its a good post. You have also hit on my exact situation. I first voted with my congregation to reject the same sex blessing. And then I read the statement against the TNIV and I realized that it was not true but it had been signed by one of the leaders against the same sex blessing.
So I was in a position of either fellowshipping with those in homosexual relationships or with slanderers.
It actually was a long process which lead me to reject the slanderers. I don’t actually know any same sex couples in the church, but hypothetically this seems less worrisome to me. In terms of a testimony to non-Christians, slanderers do the reputation of Christ far more harm.
I also wanted to respond to this,
“Sexual relations between men and women are “natural” because that is how God created us to work. Same sex relations are “unnatural” because they go against God’s created order. I don’t know that we should shy away from biblical language, especially in conversation with other believers.”
This is what Lot seemed to think, that the rape of women was a lesser sin than the rape of a man. I don’t see how it would be better to be the victim of a natural sex act rather than of an unnatural sex act.
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Hello More Anonymous
That a nice rhetorical ploy you deployed but let me try another. Substitute eating disorder for homosexuality. Our first Christian is a bulimic who binge eats and then purges. She knows she is loved by God but is unable to conquer her very destructive neurosis. Eventually it kills her. The second is a Man with a similar eating disorder. He is obese. He tries to diet but he just can’t say no to second or (even third) portions. In the end he just gives up and makes his peace shopping at big and tall shops and although it may take years but he recognizes he is killing himself with his knife and fork.
Why do we obsess over some sins and not others? Why do we deploy such hyperbolic and inflammatory language (if the first rule of politics is to not compare you opponent to a Nazi maybe the first rule of strait/gay discussions should be drop the pedophile language?). Tell me why we demand from Gays a level of sacrifice that we would never demand of ourselves? The double standard between the way the church treats it divorced and gay members is becoming obvious even to those outside the church.
Peace
(Less Anonymous)
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Hello More Anonymous
That a nice rhetorical ploy you deployed but let me try another: Substitute an eating disorder for homosexuality. Our first Christian is a bulimic who binge eats and then purges. She knows she is loved by God but is unable to conquer her very destructive neurosis. Eventually it kills her. The second is a Man with a similar eating disorder. He is obese. He tries to diet but he just can’t say no to second or (even third) portions. In the end he just gives up and makes his peace shopping at big and tall shops and although it may take years but he recognizes he is killing himself with his knife and fork. Neither of these Christians would face any but the most modest stigma and certainly no sanction from the most orthodox of churches (just think what would happen to the SBC if overweight (gluttonous) ministers were disqualified from service?
Why do we obsess over some sins and not others? Why do we deploy such hyperbolic and inflammatory language (if the first rule of politics is to not compare you opponent to a Nazi maybe the first rule of straight/gay discussions should be drop the pedophile language?). Tell me why we demand from Gays a level of sacrifice that we would never demand of ourselves? The double standard between the way the church treats it divorced and gay members is becoming obvious even to those outside the church. God gave us a moral compass and to love God with our whole hearts means that we are commanded to use it. We are all sinners and it is the height of hypocrisy to dam the sins of our brothers but at the same time reduces our own sins to mere peccadilloes.
Peace
(Less Anonymous)
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Thank you for this post and for the link to your other post about all sins not being equal. I like how your mind works! I wish I could clearly defend my arguments as you seem to do so easily. None of us have all the answers but if our aim is to be more loving, kind, gracious, understanding, truthful and Christlike, then we can do no wrong. I agree that sin is disgusting. I have been a victim of some terrible crimes. I hate sin more than anyone can hate sin.
As much as I hate sin, I wish I could keep my mouth shut. There are tons of Bible verses on this particular issue and I feel condemned everytime I read them but it’s like I can’t stop. My mouth just spews venom or gossip or babbles. So I’m going to practice right now before I say what I want to say.
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I’ve noticed what seems to be an unspoken assumption, that sins of ignorance or confusion are “OK”, whereas sins which involve the will are “Not OK”. I speak in worldly terms, of course, because all sin is bad. Apostle Paul said that the whole world is without excuse, because even those who didn’t know the law of Moses had a natural sense of right and wrong: conscience. And here’s the rub: if my sin involves my will, but my conscience is dull, do I sin worse than one who is weak towards sin but has a sensitive conscience? Really, only God can judge such situations.
Sanctification (removal of sinful acts and practices) is from God, and not merely from our own efforts, or self-will, to be good; and sometimes this isn’t instantaneous in all areas of a Chirtian life. Repentance includes saying, “Hey Papa Yahweh, I agree Your Word is true, even though I can’t seem to do all that It says, but I await Your strength to do so.”
By the way, Apostle John was using language regarding sin and abiding in Christ mainly to address the heresy of Gnosticism, in which people freely practiced immorality and denied that Jesus was God, etc., and must be applied carefully in a general sense.
Thanks to Michael for the Theology Program – it’s worth the work.
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