The Great Trinity Debate Challenge
If you consider yourself a non-Trinitarian believer in Jesus, do I have a challenge for you!
With the permission and support of Michael Patton, I am proposing a formal debate on this blog on the subject of the doctrine of the Trinity, to be conducted over a six-week period (beginning sometime after the New Year; scheduling is flexible). I am looking for one individual to argue for a position contrary to the Trinitarian position, while I will argue for the Trinitarian view.
Here is how I propose we proceed:
Week #1: My opponent and I would set forth our understanding of the nature of God (his attributes, e.g., omnipotent or not, omnipresent or not, incorporeal or corporeal) to make sure everyone understands what, if any, differences we have on that subject.
Weeks #2 and #3: The two of us would each set forth our understanding of the identity/person of Jesus Christ.
Week #4: The two of us would each set forth our understanding of the identity, status (person or non-person), and/or nature of the Holy Spirit.
Week #5: The two of us would each set forth a case for our position with regard to the Trinity (I would be for it, my opponent against it).
Week #6: Each of us will post one closing statement, with those blog entries open for questions from anyone.
At each stage of the debate, each of us would have an opportunity to rebut the other’s arguments by commenting on each other’s blog entries, and each of us would be free to give a closing response defending our position and/or criticism of the other’s view. To prevent either debater from overwhelming the other with reams of material cut and pasted into the debate, we will each agree to keep our total word count per week (including rebuttals, etc.) to no more than 10,000 words. Note that each stage would be given one week except for the second stage, which will be given two weeks. The debaters may choose to continue Q&A with others beyond the sixth week at their discretion, but the formal debate will be over at the end of the sixth week.
During the sixth week, anyone who properly registers to leave comments will be able to ask both of us any questions pertaining to these issues relating to the Trinity. These questions are to be posted in response to our closing statements. The 10,000-word limit will not apply to the debaters’ responses to these questions.
After the formal debate is concluded, a poll will be posted on the blog asking four questions:
1. Setting aside your own opinion of the doctrine of the Trinity, how well did Rob Bowman, the Trinitarian, do in supporting his position?
A. Excellent defense of this viewpoint—could not have been much better
B. Good defense—reasonably well done defense
C. Passable effort—not bad, but not particularly good
D. Poor effort—did not represent this viewpoint adequately
F. Terrible defense—a disastrous embarrassment to this viewpoint
2. Setting aside your own opinion of the doctrine of the Trinity, how well did < Name to Be Determined >, the non-Trinitarian, do in supporting his position?
A. Excellent defense of this viewpoint—could not have been much better
B. Good defense—reasonably well done defense
C. Passable effort—not bad, but not particularly good
D. Poor effort—did not represent this viewpoint adequately
F. Terrible defense—a disastrous embarrassment to this viewpoint
3. In your judgment, who won the debate? Note: This question is not asking you which person’s viewpoint you think is correct, but whose viewpoint was better defended here.
A. Rob Bowman, the Trinitarian
B. < Name to Be Determined>, the non-Trinitarian
C. It was a draw
4. What is your own view with regard to the doctrine of the Trinity?
A. I am a Trinitarian
B. I am a non-Trinitarian
C. I am undecided
I am willing to debate anyone who agrees with the following terms:
1. The individual must use his or her real name. After all, I am putting myself on the line; I expect my opponent to do so as well.
2. The individual must defend a specific understanding of God, of Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. That is, the individual must defend a specific theological alternative to the doctrine of the Trinity. It can be anything — Mormonism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ doctrine, Oneness Pentecostalism, Biblical/Evangelical Unitarianism, etc. — but it must be a specific, identifiable, existing belief system. No “Lone Ranger” who thinks he alone knows the truth; no “Theological Sniper” who attacks my doctrine but offers no alternative position that can also be evaluated and critiqued. In order to put this doctrinal alternative in context, my opponent must identify the specific religious denomination, sect, group, movement, or whatever, with which he or she associates as a believer. I must and of course will also do the same; I will defend a specific understanding of these matters, namely, the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity common to evangelical Protestants, conservative Catholics, and traditional Orthodox believers. I am an evangelical Protestant, a member of a Baptist church, and will defend the Trinity within that theological context.
3. The individual must agree (as I will) that for the purposes of the debate, everything the Bible says pertaining to God, and specifically pertaining to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is true and authoritative, and that the purpose of the debate is to determine which of our two doctrines is most faithful to the teachings of the biblical authors as a whole. The Bible is stipulated here to be the 66 books of the Protestant canon of Scripture. My opponent and I may cite any published translation of the Bible or refer to the Hebrew and Greek texts; if the translation of a particular passage is disputed for some reason, each of us will be free to offer whatever justification we think best in support of our view. I don’t mind if my opponent gets his or her doctrinal ideas from some other source, but the debate must be focused exclusively on which doctrine best reflects or represents the teachings of the Bible.
4. The individual must agree (as I will) that the debate will focus solely and directly on the theological issues pertaining to the Trinity specified above. Both of us will commit ahead of time to refrain from attacking the other person’s religion, its history (e.g., alleged scandals), its leaders, or its teachings on subjects extraneous to the issues directly impinging on the doctrine of the Trinity. This means, for example, that if you’re a Jehovah’s Witness, I won’t be bringing up the Miracle Wheat scandal, Russell’s courtroom difficulties, Rutherford’s temper, the failed predictions concerning 1914, 1918, 1925, etc.; and likewise, my opponent will not be bringing up Constantine’s lack of baptism, the Crusades, the Inquisitions, Michael Servetus’s execution, etc.
5. The individual must agree (as I will) that at least two weeks prior to the beginning of the debate, he or she will provide in this forum a list of resources, which may include as few as two books and as many as six books, that best represent the viewpoint he or she will defend. The list of resources may also include from one to three websites or web pages defending that viewpoint. Neither of us is expected to agree absolutely with everything in the resources we list; the purpose of the list is to give each other, and those following the debate, some understanding of the general perspective from which we defend our respective viewpoints.
With these stipulations, I am willing to debate anyone. If any of the non-Trinitarians here would like to go find someone to come debate for their side, that would be fine. If more than one non-Trinitarian offers to debate me, we’ll set up a poll and invite non-Trinitarians only to vote for their champion. To nominate yourself or someone else (with that person’s permission), just respond to this post with a comment, identifying yourself or your nominee by name and indicating your agreement to the terms stipulated above.
Some of you already know me, but for those who don’t, I am an evangelical Christian apologist and the author of a dozen books, including Why You Should Believe in the Trinity (Baker, 1989) and Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ (Kregel, 2007), which I co-authored with Ed Komoszewski. I have worked at several well-known apologetics ministries, have taught several elective courses in The Theology Program, and am currently the Director of Research at the Institute for Religious Research.
The Credo House of Theology is open. Get the latest updates here.
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- Must One Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
- “The Trinity is Like 3-in-1 Shampoo”. . . And Other Stupid Statements
- In What Sense Are Jesus and the Father One? Part III: One in Purpose? Calvin’s View
- The Essence of God: Sovereign, Holiness, or Love?
- The Problem I Have with Apologists
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Nick Norelli on 14 Nov 2009 at 12:32 am #
I can’t wait! I’ve posted a link to this on my blog in hopes of finding you a challenger. I had suggested that perhaps the enigmatic figure known as Servetus the Evangelical might be interested seeing as how he’s set to reveal his true identity in a few days and has recently written a book arguing against the doctrine of the Trinity.
Rey Reynoso on 14 Nov 2009 at 12:34 am #
Oh boy, I wonder if there’s going to be any takers. I personally had done a thought test on Theologica by arguing against Trinitarianism (mind you, I’m thoroughly Trinitarian) and I made it easier for myself by not supporting any single option but that there are other options that make sense of the text.
But it is a forum with single posts and doesn’t have the well thought out representation that you’re suggesting in this opening challenge.
I hope you find a Sith Lord to duel with; it’d be awesome.
C Michael Patton on 14 Nov 2009 at 12:59 am #
Taught courses in The Theology Program! Sweet…this is going to be good.
*wait, am I signed on as me?
I seriously hope we can find a good representative from the other side. It would be very beneficial.
Thanks Rob for all your commitment.
William Mayor on 14 Nov 2009 at 1:24 am #
Sir, I was enjoying the idea of a debate with you until you required me to hold to a recognized theological position. But I cannot at this time do so. I am currently trying to get a PhD thesis approved though so that I might have a sound basis from which to launch an alternative viewpoint. Quite briefly put though, I would submit that theology must be consistent with science as far as possible, as well as with history, and I think that traditional theology fails on these points. It is too closely linked to philosophical roots that contradict science, as well as having roots that actively buried some historical facts, at least to my view. I do look forward to the debate though, and hope that a worthy opponent does arise.
Patrick Navas on 14 Nov 2009 at 1:55 am #
Rob,
I’d like to debate you on this subject. Unfortunately, I’m way too busy at present with work and school. I already emailed my friend Dave Barron at scripturaltruths.com to see if he might be interested. He might be a good candidate for this.
I can debate you in the Summer if the offer still stands then.
Patrick Navas
Jonathan on 14 Nov 2009 at 4:22 am #
Hi Rob,
May I suggest an additional issue for your debate: “What is first-century Jewish monotheism?”
If you focus solely on attributes or what is God’s “nature” you may well find that both you and your debating partner are much in agreement. However, by expressly detailing your understanding of what constituted Jewish monotheism in the NT period you’ll be laying bare all of the assumptions upon which both of you are building your later case (e.g., depending on your dialogue partner: variant high-god position; monistic assumptions etc). If the assumptions concerning monotheism are not set out, you’ll both find yourselves arguing past one another. I.e., superficially, the argument might focus on a specific text (e.g., John 1:1; 10:30; 20:28), but the actual basis for the arguments will not properly surface.
Honestly, I think this additional topic is vital. We only have to consider contemporary scholarship. E.g., think about the differently nuanced views on 1st-C monotheism by comparing Bauckham with Hurtado or Dunn and how those different foundations lead to different christological proposals. I hope you’ll seriously consider this issue, though I know it will add considerably to your workload!
Jeff Downs on 14 Nov 2009 at 8:24 am #
“Quite briefly put though, I would submit that theology must be consistent with science as far as possible.”
What does a statement such as this mean? I can only take away from this, that the scriptures are not your final authority.
collards on 14 Nov 2009 at 9:40 am #
Rob,
A good idea but why the concern for whom won or lost. It isn’t one’s ability to cleverly debate that is important here. It is the presentation of the truth. Everything else is really ego.
It is not a theological fencing match or another athletic contest. Knowing that the truth was presented and hopefully read is all that should matter.
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Paul
Wilson Hines on 14 Nov 2009 at 10:05 am #
I don’t “get it.”
How can a person be a non-believer in the Trinity and a believer in Jesus as the Christ, at the same time. I’m befuddled.
David Barron on 14 Nov 2009 at 10:24 am #
Dear Rob Bowman,
Hi I was recommended to come to your site. I am willing to reason this matter out and I would enjoy showing you that the trinity is completely unbiblical as well as the truth of the gospel as it is in the bible.
I am a historic Seventh Day Adventist and if you go to my website you will find a list of what our pioneers believed. I’ve wrote several articles on the truth about God as well as many apologetics. We are not lone rangers believing one thing or another from one person to another. There are many of us who are completely united on who Gos is, who Christ is and the identity of the Holy Spirit in “unity of the faith and knowledge of the son of God”[Eph 4:13].
If you are willing to reason this topic out I will be willing to also publish it on my website as well if you are open to that. As far as debate I personally prefer reasoning with humility and willingness to concede if God shows us by the word that we have misunderstood something. For further discussion and if you are open to the challenge, please add me on MSN Messenger. You have my email address.
2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Andrew DeFord on 14 Nov 2009 at 10:32 am #
Hello Mr Bowman,
I certainly am interested. However, I have no other qualifications other than a love for God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. I am strictly a layman who has been reading the bible for a long time. I have been a Christadelphian for 11 years. If you are interested in the debate, contact me.
Love in Christ!
P.S. I read Putting Jesus in His Place and thought it was a good defense for your side.
Patrick Navas on 14 Nov 2009 at 10:51 am #
To Wilson Hines,
You wrote:
“How can a person be a non-believer in the Trinity and a believer in Jesus as the Christ, at the same time. I’m befuddled.”
There are many people, including myself, who do not believe the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, since it was not taught by Jesus and nowhere explicitly taught in Scripture. But we still believe that Jesus is “the Christ,” that is, the one whom God anointed, or in the words of Jesus, “the one whom the Father consecrated and sent forth into the world” (John 10:36).
That is to say, we (non-trinitarians) believe that the “one God” is “the Father” (not the ‘Trinity’) and that Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the living God” (not ‘God the Son, the second person of the Trinity’). –1 Cor. 8:6; Matt 16:15-17 1 John 5:1; Compare 1 Tim. 2:5; John 17:3
Patrick Navas
Seth R. on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:09 am #
Since Jehovah’s Witnesses typically don’t go in for online debate, and most people don’t even know what “Oneness Pentecostalism” or “Biblical/Evangelical Unitarianism” even is, I think Bowman is pretty much throwing the gauntlet down for a Mormon to pick up.
I agree with collards,
The focus on “who scored the most points” seems pretty juvenile to me. This isn’t going to foster any better understanding of each others’ positions. The way Bowman has framed this – in terms of a schoolyard throw-down – ensures that the participants will be entering the debate primarily concerned with not looking stupid in front of “all these people.” The motivation to actually understand and explore each others’ positions will be minimal at best.
This just seems like a dog-and-pony show to me.
Rob Bowman on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:11 am #
Nick,
I already know who Servetus the Evangelical is. If he wants to debate, that would be fine by me.
Jonathan,
Both my debate opponent and I will be free to bring up the matter of how NT statements about Jesus cohere with “first-century Jewish monotheism.” I imagine it will come up.
collards,
The poll I propose to have afterward gives everyone a chance to weigh in on how well they thought my presentation and that of my opponent supported our respective viewpoints and which side was better represented. It isn’t about ego.
David Barron,
It’s problematic that you would be defending a viewpoint rejected by your own denomination. I’m not saying no absolutely, but I’d prefer a debate opponent whose viewpoint is representative of the religion with which he associates. We’ll see who else steps up to the plate.
Andrew,
I deliberately did not stipulate any requirements for my debate opponent in regards to education, ministerial status, etc. I appreciate your interest in participating. If we have more than one viable candidate, we’ll let the non-Trinitarians vote for the one they want. Feel free to consider yourself a candidate. And thanks for your gracious comment about my book.
Jeff Downs on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:13 am #
Seth, I may agree with you regarding the poll (i.e. having it) but please, it certainly has nothing to do with looking or not looking “stupid.” A lot of public debates (and that is what this would be) have these types of polls.
Rob Bowman on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:15 am #
Seth,
I’d be very surprised if my debate opponent turned out to be a Mormon. I’m not at all targeting them with this challenge or expecting that to be the result.
The “Biblical/Evangelical Unitarian” movement is stronger and more popular, especially online, than you might think.
You misconstrue my motives for proposing this debate. I think it will be a wonderful opportunity to shed light on the issues.
Rob Bowman on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:17 am #
Patrick,
I have no problem waiting until summer. However, you would need to specify a recognizable, existing religious group with which you are actively affiliated and to commit yourself to a specific theological model. Up to now, you have been unwilling or unable to do so.
C Michael Patton on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:17 am #
People, no more comments about the poll. This is not the place to debate it!
Andrew DeFord on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:20 am #
Mr Bowman,
I appreciate you considering me. Have a blessed day!
Seth R. on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:30 am #
I don’t know Rob, the whole thing just brings to mind those YouTube clips of you grilling some Catholic or Mormon that are floating around all over the place (I know – certainly without your endorsement). It’s the main association I get from it and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I suppose that Mormonism could offer someone up to the task of debating you (I know my limits – I’m NOT that person). Perhaps Daniel Peterson or Lou Migeley or Blake Ostler… someone like that. But I guess I’d be surprised if they took you up on this as well.
David Barron on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:43 am #
Hi Rob,
You said “it’s problematic you would be defending a viewpoint rejected by your own denomination”.
Didn’t Jude prophecy about this type of thing:
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
So what’s problematic about debating someone who believes that men crept in and changed the faith delivered to the saints? Jews who say they are and are not. There is a whole movement of us who still hold fast to the fundamental principles delivered to this church. But I would think that talking about what the bible says about the father, son and the holy spirit would be the interest of the thread. Hath a nation changed their Gods. Is it problematic that Elijah’s nation believed in BAAL and he had to come and teach them who the true God was? The thing that has been is the thing that is today and there is no new thing under the sun.
Don’t shy away because of that.
God bless.
EricW on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:45 am #
If you read The Book of Acts or The Didache without any predetermined doctrines of the Trinity, I think you will see exactly that – i.e., Jesus proclaimed as the Christ with no overt identification of Him as a second member/Person of a “Trinity.”
God’s servant/child, the Christ/Messiah, the Son of David, the Savior, etc.? Yes. But “Light from Light, True God from True God, of one substance with the Father”? No.
Or this thing/being/substance/power called “Holy Spirit” being “the Lord(ly One)” and “worshiped and glorified together with the Father and the Son”? No.
Any explicit declarations that “God exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The three have distinct personalities and yet are of the same substance, one God. ” as many churches say in their “What We Believe” statements? No.
IMO, Acts displays what I would call a lower Christology in that regard. YMMV.
Sam Coulter on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:54 am #
Rey,
“Sith Lord” to “duel with”? Seriously man, what is that all about?
Mr. Navas,
I was delighted to see your post. In fact when I first read Mr. Bowman’s challenge, I immediately thought you would be a great candidate for this debate. I hope he can wait on you, I will be disappointed if he can’t.
By the way, I have a copy of your book and it is one of my favorite volumes. It has been an invaluable tool, and a great blessing, in my search for the truth about the doctrine of the Trinity.
Thank you,
S
C Michael Patton on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:56 am #
Don’t turn THIS thread into a debate about the Trinity (or anything else for that matter). I will start deleting comments that go in that direction (because that is just the kind of guy I am!)
EricW on 14 Nov 2009 at 12:01 pm #
My apologies, CMP. (I.e., my response 22. to Wilson Hines could be the springboard to such.) Feel free to delete my response.
C Michael Patton on 14 Nov 2009 at 12:06 pm #
Any discussion about this particular debate, needs to be taken here: http://theologica.ning.com/forum/topics/trinity-debate
Otherwise, let’s leave this post for clarification directed to Rob and for people who respond to the challenge.
William Mayor on 14 Nov 2009 at 12:53 pm #
Jeff Downs questioned my remark about including scinece with theology, and whether that implied that scripture is not the final authority. For none of us is scripture the true final authority, for we each interpret scripture ourselves, making ourselves the final authority. I merely include the well established findings of science as an additional filter through which I seek to understand scripture, and one that can supercede tradition if the evidence so indicates.
Patrick Navas on 14 Nov 2009 at 3:01 pm #
Rob,
You wrote:
“I have no problem waiting until summer.”
I am willing. Just let me know if the invitation remains open at that time.
“However, you would need to specify a recognizable, existing religious group with which you are actively affiliated and to commit yourself to a specific theological model.”
To specify, I regard myself as a “Christian” and feel no need to take on any other religious or denominational label. By “Christian” I mean that I am a person who recognizes Jesus as the Christ and I am actively trying to follow the teachings and way of life laid down by him specifically, not any denomination, organization, institution, or religious tradition (whether Catholic, Protestant, Watchtower or Mormon).
I am actively affiliated with all those who recognize Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, and who recognize the one God as “the Father,” and who accept me into their fellowship for the same reasons.
Although I believe the Trinity is a false teaching, I don’t necessarily think that Trinitarians are disqualified from being true Christians. I tend to think of most Trinitarians as true Christians who have simply been mislead by human tradition.
My “theological” position is that the “one God” is “the Father” (not the Trinity) and that Jesus is, genuinely speaking, God’s beloved Son, the Messiah, and that the holy Spirit is, in fact, God’s Spirit, the means through which God himself takes up residence in the individual and communal lives of Christian believers (1 John 5:24).
Patrick
Up to now, you have been unwilling or unable to do so.
Patrick Navas on 14 Nov 2009 at 3:05 pm #
Sam,
Thank you for the kind and encouraging words regarding my book. I’m definitely willing to take up Rob on this challenge in the summer, if he is willing to wait for me.
Best wishes,
Patrick Navas
P.S. Rob, would you be interested in debating Stafford again?
Afework Kara on 14 Nov 2009 at 3:18 pm #
Hi Rob,
It is very nice to have such debate. Thank you for that.I am an evangelical protestant and I am eager to hear from the Non-Trinitarians especially from Oneness Pentecostals and Jehovah Witnesses(if any comes to the debate forum) why they hold their position without any biblical evidence. I hope and believe,if they come and critically think about it,they would get answers to their frequently asked questions and finally would put Jesus in His Place(i.e God,distinct from the Father,worthy of worship).
Daniel Eaton on 14 Nov 2009 at 5:28 pm #
I think this will be a great event, Rob. Will it be published at all once it is concluded?
Daniel
Mike Felker on 14 Nov 2009 at 6:18 pm #
Having debate David Barron myself (visit http://www.theapologeticfront.com for the transcript), I would very much like to see you two debate. The reason being, I feel that he is one of the most knowledgeable proponents of his position that i’m aware of. And he’s also a very respectful guy that sticks to the issues.
But I see your point in desiring to debate someone who is associated with a particular group.
Though i’d love nothing more than to see you debate a “Watchtower JW,” I think a snowball in a blast furnace has a better chance than this happening. Quite unfortunate.
EricW on 14 Nov 2009 at 6:19 pm #
FYI, in addition to Navas’ book, which I’ve not seen or read, there is The Doctrine of the Trinity by Anthony F. Buzzard and Charles F. Hunting, 1998, International Scholars Publications, which I found in a used bookstore. Buzzard has Master’s degrees in languages and theology (University of Oxford; Bethany Theological Seminary, Chicago) and teaches at Atlanta Bible College. Affiliation – Church of God General Conference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_God_General_Conference
I don’t know how much, if any, of the particulars of his faith confession (e.g., beliefs about the second coming, resurrection of the dead, salvation) affects the book’s arguments, as I haven’t read it. I mention it because the book may be a source/collection of anti-Trinitarian arguments/proofs that either side might want to read for this debate.
Rob Bowman on 14 Nov 2009 at 7:45 pm #
Seth,
You wrote: “I don’t know Rob, the whole thing just brings to mind those YouTube clips of you grilling some Catholic or Mormon that are floating around all over the place (I know – certainly without your endorsement).”
Huh? Maybe you have me confused with James White (no offense, James) or someone else.
Rob Bowman on 14 Nov 2009 at 7:48 pm #
David,
I’m all for someone debating you, but it sounds like a Seventh-day Adventist needs to step up to the plate.
My concern here is that I don’t want to debate someone that practically *everyone* can later dismiss as not representative of their position. This is why I would even be hesitant about agreeing to debate Greg Stafford again (been there, done that anyway), since he no longer represents Jehovah’s Witnesses. (If the non-Trinitarians here drafted him, though, I would probably agree to it.)
In any case, I made my stipulations known up front, and I think I should try to stick by them.
Seth R. on 14 Nov 2009 at 7:49 pm #
Always possible I guess. i wouldn’t be the first time I’ve failed to keep my internet personalities straight.
Rob Bowman on 14 Nov 2009 at 7:52 pm #
Patrick,
Your response confirms that my assessment of the situation was correct. You represent no one but yourself. You have no clear theological alternative to the Trinity except repeating select phrases from the Bible as if their meaning was obviously non-Trinitarian. You are Lone Ranger and Theological Sniper rolled into one. That is why you are disqualified.
Rob Bowman on 14 Nov 2009 at 7:55 pm #
All,
The recent comment by collards, posted in clear violation of Michael Patton’s decision (not mine), is being deleted. Thank you for your understanding.
Patrick Navas on 14 Nov 2009 at 8:26 pm #
Rob,
You wrote:
Your response confirms that my assessment of the situation was correct. You represent no one but yourself.
Not at all. I represent the views of many people throughout the world and of those in my fellowship, when it comes to the belief that the one God is the Father and not the Trinity.
“You have no clear theological alternative to the Trinity except repeating select phrases from the Bible as if their meaning was obviously non-Trinitarian. ”
I explicitly said that my view of God is that he is the Father not the Trinity, and that Jesus is God’s Son, not God the Son the second person of the Trinity.
“You are Lone Ranger and Theological Sniper rolled into one. That is why you are disqualified.”
I’m not a “Lone Ranger” in any sense nor a “Theological sniper.” It’s a great dissapointment to me that you would use this kind of disrpespectful language/name calling. I fellowship with Christians in my home, at various conferences and Bible study groups, and I don’t even know what a “theological sniper” is or why you would use such language.
I respectfully accepted your challenge to debate (for the summer), but you resorted to calling me weird names that misrepresent who I am. None of this was necessary.
Patrick
Patrick Navas on 14 Nov 2009 at 8:39 pm #
I forgot to mention: I have publised a 600 page book in which I explicitly offer a very clear “theological alternative” to the doctrine of the Trinity.
Of course I attempt to limit my beliefs and creeds to the biblical language (viewing the language as inspired, satisfactory, and effective in communicating the truth about God, God’ Son, and God’s Spirit), but I have always made quite clear what I understand the biblical language to mean, based on logical reasoning and scriptural precedents.
Patrick
Rob Bowman on 14 Nov 2009 at 8:40 pm #
Patrick,
Perhaps you did not read the initial blog entry, which you can find at the top of this page. It details the terms or stipulations of the debate and explains what I meant by “Lone Ranger” and “Theological Sniper.”
Your affirmation that the one God is the Father and not the Trinity does not make clear what your view is. A Greg Stafford, Dave Barron, Anthony Buzzard, or Servetus the Evangelical could all say the same thing, but their theologies and religious affiliations are all different. Your 600-page book does not clear up the matter.
Patrick Navas on 14 Nov 2009 at 9:12 pm #
My views are clearly articulated in my book, in contrast to the Trinitarian: They are as follows:
Trinitarian: The “one God” is the Trinity—the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, three persons, one God.
Mine: The “one God” is “the Father” (not the Trinity)—1 Cor. 8:6; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9, 10; 1 Tim. 2:5
Trinitarian: God is three-in-one
Mine: God is one (not ‘three-in-one’)—Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:28, 29; Gal. 3:20; James 2:19
Trinitarian: Jesus is “God the eternal Son, the second person of the Trinity”
Mine: Jesus is God’s Son (not ‘God the Son, the second person of the Trinity’); He is not eternal (without beginning) since he was born of God and because the kind of life that he has, as God’s Son, was “granted” to him by his Father—John 5:26; 1 John 5:18
Trinitarian: The Father and Son are “coequal”
Mine: The Father is “greater” than the Son—John 14:28
Trinitarian: It is essential to believe/confess faith in God’s three-in-oneness and that Jesus is the eternal, second person of the Trinity
Mine: It is essential to believe/confess faith in God’s oneness and that Jesus is Lord, Christ, and the Son of God—Mark 12:28, 29; Rom. 10:9; 1 John 4:15; 5:1
Trinitarian: Jesus is “of one being” with God the Father
Mine: Jesus is “the exact representation” of God the Father’s “being” (not of the same being as God the Father)—Hebrews 1:3
Trinitarian: Jesus is the “God-man,” fully God and fully man at the same time
Mine: Jesus was a man accredited by God (not a ‘God-man’)—Acts 1:22; John 8:40
Trinitarian: The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity
Mine: The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit and is holy because God is holy (The Holy Spirit is not a ‘person’ of a Trinity but the Spirit of a person, namely, the spirit of God the Father which the Father gives to the Son without measure)—Gen. 1:2; Isaiah 6:3; 1 Cor. 12:3; Eph. 4:30; John 3:34
Paul Leonard on 14 Nov 2009 at 9:34 pm #
Deleted by mod.
I look forward to the debate
David Barron on 14 Nov 2009 at 9:41 pm #
Hi Rob,
Thanks for the consideration and many Seventh Day Adventists would love to see this take place since many of them have turned to the Trinitarian view. They would love to see you show me the truth so to say. Most of them believe that their leaders have the answers. I look forward to it if you wish to reconsider.
Here is an article that explains how we are the Elijah Message in this last hour and we are restoring the truth about God and his son.
http://www.elijah144.com/theelijahmessage.htm
Anyway, whenever you’re ready brother. This would be a great debate.
Rob Bowman on 14 Nov 2009 at 9:47 pm #
Patrick,
Give it up, please.
Dave,
I’ll consider it, since you do seem to represent a significant faction within the SDA tradition.
Challenge to Debate on the Trinity « Near Emmaus: Christ and Text on 14 Nov 2009 at 11:01 pm #
[...] Challenge to Debate on the Trinity 2009 November 14 tags: debate, Rob Bowman, Trinity by JohnDave Medina Rob Bowman issued a challenge to debate on the doctrine of the Trinity. I wonder who might take him up on the offer. The terms are set here. [...]
C Michael Patton on 15 Nov 2009 at 12:14 am #
I am deleting comments left and right folks.
This is not to be a debate about Rob’s challenge or about the doctrine of the Trinity.
All you should do here is 1) have Rob clarify or 2) submit a name. That is it.
I appreciate all the passion. It just goes to show how needed this always it.
Seth R. on 15 Nov 2009 at 12:25 am #
Michael, those were not the ground rules you set up from the start.
There was nothing in my post that was violating any previous warnings. And if this is not the place to raise the concerns I just raised, what is?
C Michael Patton on 15 Nov 2009 at 12:31 am #
Not here Seth. You can go to the Theologica forum and voice your concerns, but in this post we are not debating or, even, discussing anything. I am sorry, this blog can get out of control very quickly.
Yours is not the only comment that has been moderated.
C Michael Patton on 15 Nov 2009 at 12:32 am #
BTW: No discussion or debate about 48!
Seth R. on 15 Nov 2009 at 12:41 am #
Is my attempt to sign up on the Theologica forum going to be approved? As a Mormon, I never take those kind of things for granted.
Michael T on 15 Nov 2009 at 12:42 am #
hey that rhymes….
Dave Burke on 15 Nov 2009 at 1:54 am #
Mr Bowman, I see that your debate structure does not include a section devoted to the protagonists’ understanding of the Father. Is there a reason for this?
JP on 15 Nov 2009 at 4:11 am #
If anyone hasn’t already noticed, the Dave Barron who commented on this thread is not the same Dave Barron from Scripturaltruths.com.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 15 Nov 2009 at 10:19 am #
Hi Rob Bowman!
(Off-topic Request)
I only have a marginal interest in this debate topic of the Trinity…, but if or when you have both the time and interest to debate a liberal protestant on a topic which you feel is damaging to historical Christian doctrine, I’d be particularly keen to read and observe that debate.
In particular, I’m thinking of you debating James McGrath who is a Liberal Protestant. On a topic of mutual agreement and interest between the two of you. (Obviously).
Rob Bowman on 15 Nov 2009 at 10:26 am #
Dave Burke,
I am not aware of any non-Trinitarian theology that treats the Bible as the unerring word of God but that does not regard the Father as God. Where doctrinal differences arise with regard to the Father are in his nature (e.g., Mormons believe the Father has a physical body) and his relation to the other two persons. But there is in any case room in the first and fifth weeks for the debaters to set forth their views on the person and nature of the Father.
Adam Kubrock on 15 Nov 2009 at 1:10 pm #
Rob,
I would also like to recommend Dave Barron as your opponent in this debate. I do not think you will find a more staunch, outspoken and studied anti-trinitarian out there.
M A Wilson on 15 Nov 2009 at 2:34 pm #
I would be very interested in entering the debate regarding the “Trinity” as a non-trinitarian Messianic believer.
How do I get registered, when does it start and what are the requirements of the participants?
Michael Richardson on 15 Nov 2009 at 3:12 pm #
Rob,
I’d be willing to defend the Mormon (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) perspective on the Godhead as I understand it–with the understanding that my perspective on Mormonism is not to be considered the “official” Mormon perspective. You know a bit about me, my discussion style, etc.
I would suggest that clarifications be made on a few other points, specifically, what each participant understands such things as “Trinity,” “personality” (or personhood), “being,” and “unity,” or “oneness” to mean.
If we aren’t clear on such terms as are central to the concept of Trinity, or on what is meant by Trinity itself, we will likely make little progress in understanding.
In this regard, I would suggest that as part of a rebuttal, each participant be required to demonstrate an accurate understanding of the arguments presented by the other prior to attempting to either refute or present an alternative argument.
For those who don’t know me, I claim no special theological qualifications. But I am an active member of the Mormon church. I served my LDS mission in Protestant (Evangelical) dominated regions of the U.S., and studied for my Ph.D. in psychology under a well respected scholar in the field who is also an Evangelical Protestant working for the past 15+ years at Mormon owned Brigham Young University. So I feel that my experience in understanding and responding to Protestant viewpoints in both Mormon dominated and Protestant dominated contexts may be somewhat helpful in facilitating an understanding of where our perspectives overlap and where they truly diverge.
My dissertation addressed naturalistic bias in moral education, and contrasted it with (general) theistic viewpoints on morality, calling for a consideration of theistic perspectives in moral education. I’m also currently working on an article (with the above-mentioned Evangelical scholar) in response to a call for religious literacy in public education that we feel contained unacknowledged and problematic biases in favor of perspectives on religion from the “New [aggressive] Atheism.” I am currently also a full-time faculty member at BYU.
Rob Bowman on 15 Nov 2009 at 3:44 pm #
M. A. Wilson,
The requirements for someone who wishes to be my opponent in this debate are listed in the blog entry on which you are commenting here.
Rob Bowman on 15 Nov 2009 at 3:45 pm #
Mike,
You certainly meet the stipulated terms for the debate. Consider yourself a nominee.
Dave Burke on 15 Nov 2009 at 4:00 pm #
Rob, thanks for the clarification. I had Mormon theology in mind when I asked that question, since they believe that although the Father is God, He is not uniquely so (ie. there is more than one god). Perhaps you feel that this is adequately addressed under the parameters of the first week.
I would like to take up your challenge.
Currently engaged as co-founder and administrator of an online Christadelphian forum (www.thechristadelphians.org/forums) I am a lifelong Christadelphian with some years of debate experience and serve as a pastor within my community.
I have debated the Trinity online with Robert Turkel (”J P Holding”, of tektonics.org) and enjoyed some informal exchanges with Edgar Foster on JW Christology and the history of Arianism. For a couple of years I was also a regular at Matt Slick’s forums (www.carm.org) where I debated his evangelical staff and members alike.
I would be ready to debate in the new year.
Dave Burke on 15 Nov 2009 at 4:15 pm #
Oops, I clicked on the submit button before I’d finished editing.
Rob, I would like to add that I have no professional theological qualifications, though I did study Christian history at university and consider myself well read for a layman.
I am extremely familiar with evangelical theology and Christology (particularly the work of Norman Geisler, James White and William Lane Craig). My debate experience spans 10 years and I have been working as a pastor for 12 years.
Thank you for your consideration.
Rob Bowman on 15 Nov 2009 at 4:38 pm #
Dave Burke,
I’d accept you as a candidate (we now have a few), but I do have a reservation. Your reference to J. P. Holding as Robert Turkel (with Holding’s name in quotation marks) suggests a polemical style that would not be welcome here.
For those unfamiliar with this controversy, J. P. was born with the name James Patrick Holding. His name was changed in infancy to Robert Turkel. When he started his online ministry, he used his birth name in part because he was working for his state’s correctional system and felt using his birth name would help protect his family from potential dangers. Some critics of J. P. thought they could discredit him merely by attacking him for using a name other than his legal name. In July 2007 he legally changed his name back to his birth name. Yet some people hostile to evangelical Christianity still make an issue of J. P.’s name, as Dave Burke’s comment reflects.
Dave Burke on 15 Nov 2009 at 7:29 pm #
Hi Rob,
You see to have read an awful lot into a casual reference (there’s no need to second-guess my motives; just take me at face value, please) but I do apologise if I inadvertently caused offence.
I did not know that Holding was his birth name, nor did I know that he had legally adopted it in 2007. (We originally crossed swords in 2003 and we were both using pseudonyms at the time, which didn’t strike me as problematic and still doesn’t).
Since JP was “outed” by Farrel Till (late 1990s I think?) and both names spread all over the internet, I wasn’t aware that his name was still a big deal. It doesn’t make any difference to me what name he uses; after all, I use a pseudonym on my forum, as do most of the people who post there. That’s no reflection on any of us.
In any case, since JP has formally adopted the name of Holding and abandoned his prior anonymity, this is all a moot point – isn’t it? An innocent reference to a defunct name now abandoned by its former owner is hardly polemical, nor does it constitute “making an issue”!
Troy on 15 Nov 2009 at 9:29 pm #
Hi Rob,
I have been familiar with many Unitarian Movements for several years now. Out of all of them, I see the Christadelphians and having the most reverence for the Bible as God’s Word (regardless if they may or may not be wrong on a few topics), because they appeal to the Scriptures as the final authority for theology and doctrine. This movement is strong in the UK and Australia, and it is beginning to move in North America as well. Having said that, David Burke has been extremely influencial to the layman of the Christadelphian movement more so than many of the people such as Sir Anthony Buzzard, Servetus the Evangelical, and David Baron. He is widely respected in the Unitarian movement of those not a part of the Christadelphian movement, and has spent countless hours online engaging and dialoguing with Christians from all denominations. If you chose him as your debating parter, and could without question show the Trinity to be, in fact, what the bible teaches and be able to handle the objections presented by David Burke, then in turn offer objections that he could not be able to handle, I promise you you will accomplish much in your debate with him.
Please heartily consider debating David Burke.
Nate E on 15 Nov 2009 at 11:10 pm #
So many are saying they define God or the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet if he were to stand in a line up most would not recognize who he is…
So many take their stance on doctrine and or movement. Yet they leave behind the cause of Christ for the argument of knowing him or his portrait just a bit better than the next guy.
I’ll follow the debate and read the statements, but none of it will bring me any closer to him, as my relationship is with God and him alone…
Tesfaye Robele on 16 Nov 2009 at 12:26 am #
Who is going to debate with Rob? What is his qualification?
Rob Bowman on 16 Nov 2009 at 1:05 am #
Dave Burke,
The only people who ever refer to Holding as Robert Turkel are critics of his. You might think this would be over and moot given that he made the name change legal over two years ago, but not so; there are still some nasty critics who won’t let the issue go:
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/AuthorRobertTurkel.html
But I accept your assurances and am happy to have you as another candidate for the debate.
Dave Burke on 16 Nov 2009 at 1:10 am #
Thanks Troy, that’s very kind of you. I appreciate your support.
Rob, thanks for that. Please be assured that I’d give you a polite and courteous debate, without rancour or polemics.
C Michael Patton on 16 Nov 2009 at 1:16 am #
Tesfaye,
You will have to read the original post. It is all laid out there.
WLS on 16 Nov 2009 at 8:54 am #
Deleted by moderator for violating the rules of this post.
Edward T. Babinski on 16 Nov 2009 at 4:07 pm #
[Edited by mod for distracting a provoking a debate on this thread]
If someone wants to also include the viewpoint of non-Christians in the discussion please feel free to contact me.
Edward T. Babinski on 16 Nov 2009 at 4:41 pm #
Will the debate primarily consist of trading proof-texts? One has to go deeper than that and consider that not all texts in the Bible are on equal standing historically speaking, and Jesus himself wrote nothing. As for those who did write the N.T., one must consider that historians view some verses as possibly being later than others in terms of later church doctrines being read back into say, the Gospels, like the verse in Matthew about baptizing in the names of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Xavier on 18 Nov 2009 at 9:00 pm #
I’m game…where do I sign up?
C Michael Patton on 18 Nov 2009 at 9:02 pm #
Xavier, I believe you need to give your name, credentials, and what tradition you will be representing.
JohnDave Medina on 19 Nov 2009 at 5:17 am #
A couple of names who I heard being mentioned on cyberspace that would be good for this debate from the Oneness Pentecostal camp are:
David S. Norris, PhD, professor at Urshan Graduate School of Theology (UGST), who just published a major work on Oneness theology
and
Daniel L. Segraves, PhD (ABD), also professor at UGST, who has written various commentaries on books of the Bible.
I may just send them an email to see if either are interested, if anyone hasn’t done that already.
Edward T. Babinski on 19 Nov 2009 at 12:07 pm #
Deleted by mod for being off topic.
Mark on 20 Nov 2009 at 6:00 am #
Hello to all. I hope all are doing good.
There are a few recomendations that I believe would be very good opponents for, Mr. Bowman.
I will list these Jehovah’s Witnesses names that Mr. Bowman could contact to see if they are interested in debating him.
Rolf Furuli, Edgar Foster, Ed Andrews, Solomon Landers.
I would like to see what Mr. Bowman and others think about debating these individuals or other scholarly Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Chad Moore on 20 Nov 2009 at 6:44 am #
I would love to see a Oneness Pentecostal take up the non-Trinitarian side of this online debate. There are good reasons for this. For one, OPs maintain the fully deity of Jesus Christ as well as his full humanity (they are essentially Chalcedonian in their christology but pre-Nicene in their theology proper).
Also, OPs already hold to the Protestant canon of Scripture – the 66 books of the OT and NT. So there would be no tendency at attempt to bring any other authoritative texts into the matter. And also, OPs read and utilize the same bible translations as Trinitarians and do have their own sanitized translation (as some non-Trinitarians do).
Furthermore, I am a Oneness Pentecostal myself and would very much enjoy reading the interchange.
David Norris and Dan Segraves would both be excellent choices. Another possible OP candidate would be Jason Dulle who runs a blog at http://theosophical.wordpress.com/ and has written many articles on this issue at http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/.
Mark on 21 Nov 2009 at 4:00 am #
Are there any thoughts on the individuals that I mentioned?
Could they be possible candidates for you to debate, Mr. Bowman?
Rob Bowman on 22 Nov 2009 at 1:09 pm #
Mark,
The four Jehovah’s Witnesses you mentioned (Furuli, Foster, Andrews, and Landers) would probably all be fine, although I am unfamiliar with Andrews. I don’t think I know how to contact him or Furuli.
Would you like to contact these four gentlemen and direct them to this blog?
Rob Bowman on 22 Nov 2009 at 1:11 pm #
JohnDave and Chad,
I would be happy to have Norris, Segraves, or Dulles considered for the debate. I confess I am not familiar with Norris (I am, however, familiar with the work of Segraves and Dulles).
JohnDave Medina on 23 Nov 2009 at 9:07 pm #
Rob and Chad,
A few days ago, I sent them an email that links them to here. I haven’t heard anything from either, but I’m assuming that if either wants to do it, then one of them will say something.
Manuel Culwell on 26 Nov 2009 at 8:41 am #
Rob, if you really want to show your sincerity and make this interesting you would debate a representative from the Oneness camp (Those who believe Jesus is God ) Also a representative from the alternative view like (the so called;) Biblical Unitarians, or JW’s, and not Just one or the other to the exclusion of Oneness, like they are all somehow the same thing. You have your yahoo debate group and have excluded Oneness for years and have only debated Sabin a very Nice man but no debater.
Rob Bowman on 26 Nov 2009 at 12:59 pm #
Manuel,
The person whose sincerity is in question is you. I have already stated my openness to debating three different advocates of the Oneness position. I “exclude” Oneness Pentecostals from a Yahoo group that is called the Evangelical and JW Theologies Group for the obvious reason that Oneness Pentecostals are neither Evangelical nor JW.
You make a fair point that Oneness and JW and Biblical Unitarian theologies are not all alike. But my proposal was for one debate, not three or more. However, I have been giving some thought to this very matter and may come up with a solution. What we don’t need is your kind of criticism distracting from the issues.
Manuel Culwell on 26 Nov 2009 at 1:55 pm #
Rob, So only your” kind of criticism” is allowed because you have truth and you say so. I was just being Honest.
Rob Bowman on 26 Nov 2009 at 4:00 pm #
Manuel,
Is it “honest” to criticize me because I “excluded Oneness” from a group that you know is devoted to discussion between evangelicals and JWs? Yes or No?
Any further comment from you that ignores or evades this question will be considered a nuisance.
Manuel Culwell on 26 Nov 2009 at 4:04 pm #
Yes, I consider it honest! I would not exclude anyone from my group and do not. I am able to handle any and all differing belief systems at the same time, to be fair, maybe you are not so equipped. what is your reasoning?
Manuel Culwell on 26 Nov 2009 at 4:15 pm #
Rob, Calling the group Evangelicals and JW’s does not cut it my book, as I call my group trinity versus Oneness, but I love for biblical Unitarain’s or JW’s to come my way.
Rob Bowman on 26 Nov 2009 at 5:03 pm #
Manuel,
I am happy to discuss theology with Oneness believers. I have done so in the past many times, including the debate you mentioned I had with Robert Sabin. I have stated publicly right here that I would be happy to debate David Norris, Dan Segraves, or Jason Dulle, all Oneness advocates. It is frankly dishonest to suggest that I am unwilling to engage Oneness believers in discussion when I have stated otherwise right here!
I also have the right to form a discussion forum specifically for discussions between evangelicals and JWs, and that is what I did. You already knew this but neglected to mention it when you criticized me for “excluding” Oneness believers from that group. That was dishonest, Manuel. I also “exclude” New Agers, Muslims, liberal Protestants, Mormons, Biblical Unitarians, etc., *from that group* because it is a *specialized* forum for evangelicals and JWs only.
I also have another forum, the Biblical Apologetics Yahoo Group, which is open to people of any religious background. I would welcome Oneness Pentecostals to participate there as long as they focused on relevant issues. I would *not* welcome someone who comes to criticize the stated purpose of the forum or to attack individuals, as you are doing.
Manuel Culwell on 26 Nov 2009 at 7:51 pm #
[comment deleted; see #47 above for permissible comments]