Frustrations from the Front: The Myth of Theological Liberalism
Last week nearly 10,000 people invaded the French Quarter of New Orleans for a three-day conference. It wasn’t a convention of Mardi Gras mask-makers, a congregation of Bourbon Street miscreants, or an assembly of Hustler devotees. No, this was the annual meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature. This is a collective of the world’s religious scholars. SBL is the largest society of biblical scholars on the planet. The program of lectures and meetings is the size of a phone book for a mid-sized city. Too many choices! So many great biblical scholars were there: N. T. Wright, Jon Dominic Crossan, D. A. Carson, Bart Ehrman, Stanley Porter, Frederick Danker, Alan Culpepper, Craig Evans, Robert Stein, Joel Marcus, April Deconick, Elaine Pagels, John Kloppenborg, R. B. Hays, Peter Enns, Buist Fanning, Harold Attridge, Luke Timothy Johnson, Peter Davids, Craig Keener, Ben Witherington, Rikki Watts, Robert Gundry, Emanuel Tov, Walter Brueggemann, Eric Myers, Eugene Boring, J. K. Elliott—that’s just a small sampling of the names. Liberals and evangelicals, theists and atheists, those who are open and those who are hostile to the Christian faith—all were there.
Overall, the Society of Biblical Literature is comprised of professors who teach religion, humanities, biblical studies, history, ethics, English literature, and theology at virtually all the schools in the nation that offer such subjects. Not just the United States, but a multitude of other countries are represented (although because of the long distances and short conference, many scholars did not come). Private schools, public schools, elite schools, and unknown schools—all were represented. Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Tübingen, Chicago, Duke, Dallas Seminary, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Fuller Seminary, Princeton, Yale, Biola, Claremont, Manchester, Durham, St Andrews, Westminster Seminary, Wheaton, Gordon-Conwell, Emory, TCU’s Brite Divinity School, SMU, University of Texas, Northwestern University, Rice, Brandeis, London School of Theology, Münster University, Notre Dame, community colleges, even unaccredited schools were represented.
As remarkable as it may sound, most biblical scholars are not Christians. I don’t know the exact numbers, but my guess is that between 60% and 80% of the members of SBL do not believe that Jesus’ death paid for our sins, or that he was bodily raised from the dead. The post-lecture discussions are often spirited, and occasionally get downright nasty.
The annual SBL conference is a place where young scholars can present their papers, meet senior scholars, and talk to publishers about book projects. Great opportunities are at SBL! Master’s students meet with professors whom they’d like to study with for their PhDs. They make appointments, go out for coffee, or just happen to bump into them at the conference.
Now, what I’ve said about SBL so far sounds like an exciting, positive event in which a good exchange of ideas occurs, and people grapple with what the Bible is all about. To a degree that is true, but a darker underbelly to the conference, never far from the surface, shows up often enough. It has to do with the posture of many liberal scholars toward evangelicals.
One of my interns, a very bright student who is preparing for doctoral studies, met with one scholar to discuss the possibility of studying under him for his doctorate. The scholar was cordial, friendly, and a fine Christian man. He encouraged James to pursue the doctorate at his non-confessional school in the UK. (We have found the UK schools to be far more open to evangelical students, since they are more concerned that a student make a plausible defense of his views than that he or she holds the party line.) Later, James met a world-class scholar of early Christian literature and engaged him in conversation. James demonstrated deep awareness of the professor’s field, asking intelligent questions and showing great interest in the subject. Then, the professor asked him where he was earning his master’s degree. “Dallas Seminary” was the response. The conversation immediately went south. The scholar no longer was interested in this young man. James was, to this professor, an evangelical and therefore a poorly educated Neanderthal, a narrow-minded bigot, an uncouth doctrinaire neophyte—or worse.
This was no isolated case. I’ve seen it happen time and time again. There is an assumption that students from an evangelical school—especially a dispensational school—only get a second-class education and are blissfully ignorant of the historical-critical issues of biblical scholarship. Many of the mainline liberal schools routinely reject applications to their doctoral programs from evangelical students who are more qualified than their liberal counterparts—solely because they’re evangelicals. And Dallas Seminary students especially have a tough time getting into primo institutes because of the stigma of coming from, yes, I’ll say it again—a dispensational school. One of my interns was earning his second master’s degree at a mainline school, even taking doctoral courses. He was head and shoulders above most of the doctoral students there. But when he applied for the PhD at the same school, he was rejected. His Dallas Seminary degree eliminated him.
The prejudice runs deep—almost as deep as the ignorance. Yes, Dallas Seminary is a dispensational school. But it’s not your father’s dispensational school. Progressive dispensationalism, engineered by Darrell Bock, Craig Blaising, et alii, about twenty-five years ago has tied a dispensational hermeneutic to a more nuanced appreciation of the biblical covenants. Gone are the days of seeing two New Covenants, of distinguishing the ‘kingdom of God’ from the ‘kingdom of heaven’ in Matthew, and of seeing eschatology as not-yet but not already. The differences between other hermeneutical systems and the dispensationalism of today are not nearly as great as they used to be. But much of liberal scholarship has simply not kept up. There is widespread ignorance about what dispensationalists believe along with what seems to be an unwillingness to find out.
Further, the great irony is that so many liberal scholars don’t even realize that Dallas Seminary not only has only one unit on dispensationalism, but it has never required its students to adhere to this system of interpretation. So much more could be said here; I would simply invite those who are interested in learning more to read Progressive Dispensationalism by Bock and Blaising.
I can speak to issues in New Testament studies at Dallas Seminary, which I know best. Our NT faculty have degrees from Oxford, Cambridge, Aberdeen, Sheffield, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Dallas Seminary, and Glasgow. We teach a historical-critical method of interpretation, tempered by our presuppositions that the universe is not a closed-system but one in which God has been active. Our students are trained extensively in exegesis of the New and Old Testament, are conversant with the secondary literature, and are able to interact with various viewpoints. Something like 80% of our doctoral dissertations are now getting published—and in prestigious, world-class series no less. (The same, by the way, is true of our master’s students who earn their doctorates elsewhere.) When Harold Hoehner was alive, there were three members in the department who were members of the prestigious Society of New Testament Studies. Now, down to two, we are anticipating several others getting voted in, in due time.
What irritates me is that so many so-called liberal scholars have already predetermined that DTS students get an unacceptable education. They are closed-minded themselves, thinking they know what is taught at the seminary. A genuine liberal used to be someone who was open to all the evidence and examined all the plausible viewpoints. Now, “liberal” has become a hollow term, invested only with the relic of yesteryear’s justifiably proud designation. Today, all too often, “liberal” means no more than left-wing fundamentalist, for the prejudices that guide a liberal’s viewpoints are not to be tampered with, not to be challenged. Doors have been shut in the students’ faces, opportunities denied. Spending $100 on an application is too frequently a waste of time and money, since applications coming from DTS students are routinely chucked into the round file.
If we’re to judge liberal vs. conservative by one’s method, then the new liberal is the evangelical and neo-evangelical who is willing to engage the evidence, examine all sides, and wrestle with the primary data through the various prisms of secondary literature. He’s open. I tell my students every year, “I will respect you far more if you pursue truth and change your views than if you protect your presuppositions and don’t.” And they know my mantra, “Go where the evidence leads.” Sadly, some of the most brilliant scholars in biblical studies have become radically intolerant of conservatives. When conservative professors have that same attitude, they’re usually afraid of having their ideas challenged because they’re insecure in their beliefs. And they’re labeled as fundamentalists. When many “liberal” scholars are just as intolerant, what should we call them?
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Lisa Robinson on 27 Nov 2009 at 1:27 pm #
Bravo Dr. Wallace for this expose. As a ThM student at DTS who is interested in the secular academic arena, I find the reality you paint quite disheartening. I was told by my faculty adviser that the only way I could have any hopes of doctoral studies in mainstream academics was to get another masters first. But even that is a long shot because of the attitudes you present here.
Morever, this attitude is just as myopic as that which they claim conservatives have. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I can only hope that you and your distinguished colleagues can dispel the myth that DTS offers only banal education built on narrow presuppositions.
Jason C on 27 Nov 2009 at 1:29 pm #
I would just like to protest the prejudice against Neanderthals. All we know about them really is that they liked to paint and hunt.
Seriously though… I don’t think that classical liberalism (liberality?) has existed for a very long time.
Henry Neufeld on 27 Nov 2009 at 2:19 pm #
I’d just call them fundamentalists … and I call myself a liberal.
My experience of DTS grads, though admittedly only of a small number, has been extremely positive.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 27 Nov 2009 at 2:37 pm #
Dan Wallace asks: “When many “liberal” scholars are just as intolerant, what should we call them?”
How about Liberal Fundamentalists.
Brice Jones on 27 Nov 2009 at 3:09 pm #
Dr. Wallace,
I appreciate your post. Much of this hit home with my own experiences here at Yale Divinity School. It’s really funny (sad? unfair?) to see how a place like Yale Divinity encourages radical inclusivity and enforces an “open table policy,” where all faith views and religious stances are welcomed, while at the same time the evangelical students here are marginalized. They break their own “open table policy” by ignoring the evangelical students, yet no one ever cares to fix the problem. If the voice of an atheist, Hindu, Catholic, Muslim, or Jew etc. were to be ignored like the evangelical students are at this school, there would be some sort of administrative action taken. It is a rather hurtful and unfair bias.
BCJ
Susan on 27 Nov 2009 at 6:07 pm #
As always, Jesus is “a stumbling-stone” and a rock to trip over. They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.” 1 Peter 2:8 NET
Godless men and women veer from the light. The truth is, a brilliant Bible scholar is one who is not only knowledgeable and intelligent, but more importantly, wise. How do the godless influence positively when they know not the heart of God?
A sad state of affairs, but while they marginalize Christians now, they will face a doom much worse. It’s they who are to be pitied.
Jan Krans on 27 Nov 2009 at 7:32 pm #
“As remarkable as it may sound, most biblical scholars are not Christians.” That phrase, and the underlying definition of what counts as “christian” is remarkable. Perhaps it risks confirming the unjust prejudices held by those “liberal fundamentalists”.
Daniel B. Wallace on 27 Nov 2009 at 7:35 pm #
Susan, I appreciate your comments, but I think I should clarify: I believe that evangelicals can learn a great deal from ‘liberal’ scholars. It comes down to how we think about 1 Cor 2.14: “The natural person does not welcome the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” Many Christians think that this verse means that unbelievers can’t understand anything about the Bible. That’s not what the verse is saying, however. Instead, it is saying that unbelievers do not *welcome* the things of the Spirit of God. He understands the Bible well enough to know that he wants to reject its redemptive message. But some of the best commentaries are written by non-evangelicals (whether they are ‘liberal’ or not may be a different matter; in any event, it is often hard to tell). I have learned much from Bart Ehrman, J. K. Elliott, And David Parker, for example. And I recommend my students to study under them for their doctorates. Some of the best lexical, grammatical, historical, and even theological work has been done by unbelievers. But it always needs to be filtered through a christocentric grid. ‘Liberals’ have a lot to teach us, and we have some things to teach them, too–if they would only listen.
Susan on 27 Nov 2009 at 8:16 pm #
That is a generous and open-minded perspective, which is very graciously and sincerely stated. Do you know some unconverted scholars who are equally receptive to your writings…and those of other evangelical scholars?
Anita in Tulsa on 27 Nov 2009 at 9:49 pm #
Perhaps what needs to happen is something like what happens in the world of integrative medicine. A person that gets a D.O. , or N.D. is not taken seriously no matter how brilliant or effective his research or treatment may be. There are underlying currents why this is so – having to do with the pharmaceutical industry, AMA and etc. (follow the money…)
It seems it has to be someone who goes the accepted route, achieves his M.D., arrives at the pinnacle of his career, and doesn’t mind risking FDA pursuit, that can be effective in putting forth a new thought relating to “un”conventional treatment and have it proliferate through the medical industry…slowly.
Perhaps an extraordinary and “open” fundamental (rather than closed fundamental) student should have the end in mind when contemplating the means. Go to an accepted scholarly institution, get those credentials, make a name for themselves and have some influence from that vantage point.
How did we get in this shape anyway?
Daniel B. Wallace on 28 Nov 2009 at 12:43 am #
Jan, can you clarify your comment? You said that my definitions were ‘remarkable,’ but that’s a neutral term.
Alan J. Eddy on 28 Nov 2009 at 9:10 am #
Wondering if Scott Hahn was present. He brings a unique perspective to theology given his past Protestant faith and subsequent conversion to Catholocism. A brilliant mind.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 10:21 am #
Reading this post brought back a lot of memories. My own experience suggests that the SBL is rather more conservative than progressive, but maybe that’s against the backdrop of the AAR.
The Society of Biblical Literature, whatever else it is, is an academic – and therefore secular – society. Someone who studies bible could be Jewish or Muslim – all people of the book – or even atheist. Why not? I recall all sorts of perspectives and disciplines, including things like archeology. Why should someone studying the text in itself be christocentric? It’s one hermenutic, a faith-based one – and fine, good – but in Hebrew bible? Torah? Kabbalah?
A reader would have to assent to your narrow definition of Christianity before your claims about membership could even be assessed. My own definition has very little to do with any church doctrine per se. Personally, I don’t think it’s a matter of assent to beliefs at all, but of faith, commitment, ethics, kindness, forgiveness… By the way, I’m really enjoying Karen Armstrong’s new book – The Case for God – on that very topic.
I can appreciate someone’s frustration if an evangelical or pastoral-based program sometimes isn’t taken as seriously, but some of that is, I think, part of the long fight to establish departments of religion in academic, not just seminary settings. It’s not been easy, and is probably even harder today. Isn’t an academic study inherently less restricted by certain required lenses? Maybe not… and of course there is no lens-free study… but there are also some institutions that can’t be taken seriously by academics. Liberty comes to mind.
Open- versus closed-mindedness is a value judgment, not a method or hermeneutic. The evangelical or faith-based methods of interpretation can automatically close off readings that would run counter to the scholar’s belief-system. I can empathize with feelings of feeling like an outsider somehow, and defending what may be a perfectly good institution, but you’re creating a dividing line here that comes uncomfortably close to a good versus evil judgment and I sense a little bit of a familiar thread of persecution. This creates what is to me a very unchristian dividing line.
The way to address these issues in an academic setting – one that is more conservative and faith-based in its membership than most – is to make a convincing and intellectually sound argument. Present a paper, and encourage others at your institution to do the same. Raising the level of respect is easily done – produce good work that meets academic standards of excellence. An academic society is not a congregation – you have to earn the respect of your peers.
Rev. Bryan Johnson on 28 Nov 2009 at 10:50 am #
Thank you for writing this article! You should try being a Pentecostal/Evangelical and pursing an “academic” career! I have been working on my MA in Religious Studies at a Catholic University, and I’ve found the ultimate impediment for Evangelical scholarship (as you have mentioned) is the historical-critical method. Most like myself went to a “Bible College” learning the historical-grammatical method, and did not have to engage the critical view. But now, I have had to learn to “listen” to critical method, break down the argument, and then engage it logically in my papers and classroom discussions. Many times, my discussions turn into mini debates, and I’m thankful that most of my professors are open to debate. One other note, it is my experience that most historical-critical students and professors do not know their Bible! In fact, one professor admitted that (to me) in front of the whole class! The most frustrating thing about this subject is that the historical-critical method was birthed in doubt and atheism i.e. Spinoza and Simon. These men rejected the supernatural, and their mentors were atheists! God help us all!
Keep the faith my friends- God Bless!
Lisa Robinson on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:05 am #
Rev. Johnson, I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment. I think many are afraid to study divergent opinions with concerns that it might undermine their beliefs. However, I have found it fascinating to study divergent views to understand where the points of departure are. This not only has tremendous apologetic value, but has the affect of deepening one’s commitment to Christ. It also helps in critical self-examination of why we believe what we believe. Or at least it does for me, anyway.
Lisa Robinson on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:18 am #
Heidi, I think the point that Dr. Wallace is trying to make is that there is an inherent prejudice in secular academics that automatically precludes any earned respectability. The prejudice is that conservative evangelicalism has such a commitment to a Christocentric hermeneutic that its adherents cannot appreciate the value of secular academics nor contribute anything worthwhile, especially at the same level of academic scholarship. But by imposing that prejudice upon this group as a whole is in fact guilty of doing the same thing.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:31 am #
Considering that there are quite a few conservative evangelicals in the SBL – and even more scholars with a Christocentric hermenutic that wouldn’t meet the stated definition here, I don’t think that’s the problem.
The problem is that there are many ways to study the biblical texts. There are stronger and weaker readings. However, when someone dismisses good research based only on belief, that’s a breach of intellectual integrity. I am not saying that Dan is one of these, but it’s a very common thread among those who seem to think that there is one “right” interpretation and all others are “wrong.” The attempted academic study of bible – and the study religious movements and ideas and histories – cannot be based on membership loyalties. The perception – not prejudice – is that intellectual integrity is so often compromised by pre-determined beliefs that dialogue and exchange among respected equals cannot happen. The rules about the open table prohibit the demonization of others at the table – and the only ones that seem to have trouble are ones that do so. Reversing that to feel persecuted is a little bizzare to me. Oh – you can either call Dan “Dan” or you can call me “Dr. Nordberg.” Your choice.
Jan Krans on 28 Nov 2009 at 12:15 pm #
A longer quote then: “As remarkable as it may sound, most biblical scholars are not Christians. I don’t know the exact numbers, but my guess is that between 60% and 80% of the members of SBL do not believe that Jesus’ death paid for our sins, or that he was bodily raised from the dead.”
To me, these lines sound as if a certain group of “christians” unilaterally decides not to consider “christian” another group of “christians” who do not stick to the same set of debatable doctrines. I hope it was just as slip of the pen (parchment can be slippery after all).
mike whitenton on 28 Nov 2009 at 1:39 pm #
I just wanted to weigh in on this from a different perspective. First, great work, Dr. Wallace. I’m glad you wrote this.
Over the last year I have had a LOT of interaction with profs at top programs in the states from scholars at a host of mainline schools from the US. While I have at times needed to clarify things about DTS, that explanation was always welcome.
When I set up meetings I send one, lengthy email that details my interests, qualifications, and stresses my work with certain members of the NT department. With only one exception, my emails have been received warmly. I have also made an effort to, whenever possible, visit the campus in person.
Vinny on 28 Nov 2009 at 1:43 pm #
Dr. Wallace
As an agnostic who enjoys debating with evangelicals, I would say that I have noticed the difference in Dallas Theological Seminary. One of my favorite evangelical bloggers is a student of yours who shows a capacity for critically examining his own positions that is rare in the blogosphere.
I have also been impressed by my exposure to DTS faculty scholarship, limited though it may be. I looked through Darrell Bock’s Blasphemy and Exaltation in Judaism and I was very impressed by the way that he fairly confronted competing perspectives that might normally be classified as liberal rather than ignoring them or cavalierly dismissing them. Moreover, I found him was circumspect in his conclusions, claiming neither greater breadth nor certainty than warranted by the evidence he presented. Although I have not read any of your works, I did listen to the 2008 Greer-Heard Forums, and I thought you engaged the liberal scholars on the program with a similar attitude.
On the other hand, I think there are many evangelicals who do not appreciate the subtleties of the DTS approach. The reason I got hold of Bock’s book in the first place was because I had been discussing Mark’s Christology with an evangelical blogger who seemed to think it had conclusively established several important points. My impression is that Dr. Bock would have seen his work as contributing to the discussion rather than settling it once and for all. By the same token, if I simply went by some of the Christian apologists who have cited your works, I might think that Bart Ehrman was an intellect charlatan whose writings you have conclusively debunked and refuted, claims I suspect you would be reluctant to make. My point is that the inability to appreciate nuance within evangelical scholarship often seems to pose as big a problem for other evangelicals as for liberals.
I am curious whether you have discussed this issue with your liberal peers. It may be that they have had encounters with DTS students who did not learn to engage with secular scholarship as well as you would have liked. It is also possible that they have based their opinion on DTS faculty scholarship on students who have miscited it.
NEW LEAVEN on 28 Nov 2009 at 2:06 pm #
Daniel B. Wallace Corrects A Faulty Conclusion of 1 Corinthians 2:14…
I got to say that it is so cool to see noted profs like Daniel B. Wallace taking the time to blog a bit—I mean really blogging. In response to a Susan over a Parchment & Pen, prof. Wallace writes: Susan, I appreciate your comments, but I thin…
Jason C on 28 Nov 2009 at 2:15 pm #
Since Christianity is a system of orthodoxy, and the bodily resurrection is the evidential cornerstone of orthodoxy, then by definition someone who denies the bodily resurrection cannot be a Christian.
It is not a debatable doctrine, it’s a foundational doctrine.
Group A accepts proposition X
Group B does not accept proposition X
Group B is not Group A
Christopher Heard on 28 Nov 2009 at 2:48 pm #
I can’t speak for Jan Krans, of course, only for myself—but I had a similar reaction. The bulk of the original post is a lengthy complaint about liberal scholars having a bias against students trained in evangelical seminaries. But the same post dismisses anyone who does not hold a particular view of atonement (“Jesus paid for our sins”) as a non-Christian! Even your (Dan Wallace’s) comment #8 is sharply prejudicial against “liberals” beneath its irenic veneer (“Some of my best friends are …”).
Luke on 28 Nov 2009 at 4:04 pm #
Christopher,
I must admit that I’m not following you here. I could count the number of evangelical scholars on one hand who would write a post like this and a response like Dan’s in #8. In fact, he could very well catch some flak for this at his institution. As for his atonement comment, I didn’t interpret it as him saying anybody who does not believe that (i.e. penal substitution) is a non-Christian, only that most at SBL don’t believe it, whereas most evangelicals do. I can see how it’s easy to interpret it otherwise, and maybe that’s what Dan meant, it’s just not how I read it. I could be totally wrong but I’m just basing my judgments on what he has said in the past
As far as comment #8 being prejudiced against liberals, I’m totally not following you here. I think it firmly upholds “liberals” and gives them dignity because he’s basically saying they’re better at scholarship than all the evangelicals!
Daniel B. Wallace on 28 Nov 2009 at 5:47 pm #
Excellent interactions, friends! In this comment, I’d like to address Heidi. My statement, “Some of the best lexical, grammatical, historical, and even theological work has been done by unbelievers. But it always needs to be filtered through a christocentric grid” seems to have troubled you. I think you interpreted that to mean that I expected all scholars–Christian and otherwise–to embrace a christocentric hermeneutic or else they would be condemned. No, that’s not what I meant at all. I meant rather that anyone committed to evangelical theology should not simply accept all that they read uncritically. Of course there will be lively debate!
You also equated academic with secular, as though someone who had a faith-commitment could not be academic. I think that’s a bit naïve. Now, you concede that “of course there is no lens-free study.” But you quickly move on to view only evangelicals as biased. Everyone has a faith-commitment in that they all have a viewpoint shaped by beliefs, non-beliefs, or anti-beliefs. No one is unprejudiced. The notion that we could examine these materials in a fully objective way went out with historical positivism, which was in vogue a century ago.
Further, you imply that our prejudices are unshakeable: “The evangelical or faith-based methods of interpretation can automatically close off readings that would run counter to the scholar’s belief-system.” It’s precisely that attitude that I’m fighting against. It in itself is a closed-minded viewpoint, hardly recognizing that evangelicals have wrestled with things, modified their views, and contributed significantly to biblical studies.
Finally, you said: “The way to address these issues in an academic setting–one that is more conservative and faith-based in its membership than most–is to make a convincing and intellectually sound argument. Present a paper, and encourage others at your institution to do the same. Raising the level of respect is easily done–produce good work that meets academic standards of excellence. An academic society is not a congregation–you have to earn the respect of your peers.” This again reveals some naïveté on your part. Are you not aware of the incredible work that evangelical scholarship has done—reading papers at SBL (yes, I’ve read several), publishing in prestigious monograph series & academic journals? Yet, paper proposals by evangelicals routinely get rejected if they are too evangelical—even if well supported. Talk about closed-minded.
Raising the level of respect is NOT easily done: regardless of how much we publish, there are still those who view DTS and other evangelical institutes as backwards, closed-minded, neanderthals with miniscule brains. Remarkably, this is not the case in the UK: at one time, half of the NT doctoral students at Cambridge University were Dallas Seminary graduates. I’m asking for a model in which the old modernist-fundamentalist battle lines are forgotten, &…
Sue on 28 Nov 2009 at 6:31 pm #
It seems that there could be many reasons why a conservative evangelical would be a problematic student. For example, what if the student felt compelled to walk out of class if a female student were teaching authoritatively? Is it remotely possible that gender views are a hindrance to full acceptablility?
A conservative may draw certain lines which overtly or covertly exclude women, homosexuals, those of other religions or denominations from reciprocal and positive relations.
While a conservative does not have to be conservative, a female has little that she can do about her condition. If the women are to be made welcome, then they must be made to understand that viewing women as “receivers and responders” is not an opinion to be voiced in their institution. A discussion of female submission also can trigger trauma in victims of male violence, recalling porn scenarios and other situations. This kind of talk is best made unacceptable.
While no environment can be made absolutely safe, women would like to feel that certain opinions are not acceptable. Ascribing these opinions to God is not going to fly in a secular and academic venue, thank goodness. Just my thoughts.
Luke on 28 Nov 2009 at 6:44 pm #
Sue,
While I understand you going on another pro-woman tirade and jumping on your soapbox whenever you get the chance, the very fact that you say what you do indicates that you suffer from the same discriminatory complex that the professors at the divinity schools and universities do.
First off, “conservatives” are not monolithic. Conservatives at one institution may think another institution is liberal, while the “liberals” consider both flaming fundamentalists.
Second, what if, for instance, a person who was educated at a DTS, Trinity, Southern, Gordon-Conwell, Westminster, etc. were not “conservative” by the standards of most conservatives? I attend a conservative institution and would be considered a flaming liberal by most here! I’m not alone either, the vast majority of my friends are the exact same way. We’re all being educated at a conservative institution and don’t care much about some of the things conservatives care about, and on some things we downright disagree with them.
You’re assuming from the outset that a person who was educated at a conservative school shares the EXACT same beliefs and values that traditionally most conservatives do (e.g. male dominance, republican politics, inerrancy, strict penal substitution view of atonement, sectarian exclusivity, etc.). You’re also assuming that a person who is educated at a certain conservative institution doctrinally believes exactly what that institution believes.
What if this is not the case? What if a student at DTS thinks dispensationalism is dead wrong? What if a student at Southern thinks Calvinism is evil and is a flaming egalitarian? This happens more than you think, and I would be willing to bet a significant percentage of students at these institutions do not share these same beliefs.
Is it right to discriminate against a student for the sheer fact that he got his masters of PhD at what is known by the outside world as a “conservative” institution? Is that right? Or should he/she be judged based upon the work they do, their intelligence, their research skill, and their willingness to change their mind when the evidence goes a different direction?
That’s the issue Sue.
Susan on 28 Nov 2009 at 7:06 pm #
You’re barking up the wrong tree, Sue. Dan holds women in high regard, both as students, grad students and scholars (as do other DTS profs). Of the many scholars and grad students he has to choose from he selected a female Greek scholar to accompany him on several of his expeditions with CSNTM (photographing Greek manuscripts). Dan and his wife also attended an egalitarian church for awhile. It seems to me that Dan is far more open-minded than you. Save your persecution speech for someone else.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 7:06 pm #
Dan -
I don’t think any academic should accept all that they read uncritically, evangelical or otherwise.
There are of course lots of people who have a faith-commitment who are academics, but membership is not an academic criterion of excellence. Everyone is biased by their worldview, but there is an especial authoritarian stamp on evangelicals, I think. I would not argue for objectivism, not at all, but I would argue for stong readings as opposed to weak readings. Weak readings have to mold themselves to predetermined outcomes.
Be fair. What I said, and I think you’ve seen this yourself, it that evangelical or faith-based methods of interpretation *can* (and I would say *are seriously encouraged to*) close off readings that would run counter to the belief-system. There are some evangelicals that have wrestled and modified their views, but does it significantly change the evangelical churches? Look at our political landscape to see the answer to that. There are those who have regressed enough to want to bring back stoning, and they aren’t considered a cult but rather run major programs, including home schooling.
If you want to level a charge against me, I would suggest some other than naïveté. You don’t know me, but I can assure you that it would not be in the first twenty or so things that would stick. I am aware of the prejudice from the other side – against progressive compassion. Perhaps your papers need a peer review to determine if what you think is well-supported (according to the community interpretation) is actually well-supported by the text itself. I’ve seen this from all sides, having been a very fringe orthodox evangelical myself. And – I would reiterate – the SBL is very conservative. If it doesn’t fly there, there’s something very wrong.
I simply disagree with you. Raising the level of respect is indeed very easily done. You just haven’t done it. You’re focusing on persecution, when you yourself are on a boundary line. Think less about institutions and more about readings that contribute to the dialogue. Demonize others less, and work more. Think harder, and write more persuasively. Think less of ego and standing and more of service. That’s all I can recommend to you. Blessings.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 7:19 pm #
In response to Luke’s rant against Sue’s concerns. Where is the need to be so mean? Are you so threatened by a statement like “A conservative may draw certain lines which overtly or covertly exclude women, homosexuals, those of other religions or denominations from reciprocal and positive relations”? Sheesh. That seemed like a rather mild observation to me, and I didn’t see any attack there against Dan. This is precisely the kind of knee-jerk response that doesn’t fly in an academic setting.
While there are always diverse views within any institution, I think it’s fair to say that when someone choses to go to a seminary rather than a university, to Liberty rather than Harvard, there is a judgment there of preference. The institution you choose does say something about who you are, and what you believe, like it or not.
Gary on 28 Nov 2009 at 7:25 pm #
Certainly, Sue, those are concerns relating to peace and having a wholesome, uplifting academic community. However, preemptive exclusion cannot be considered a valid approach to maintaining a diplomatically neutral community.
Are there genuine scholars who would argue rather modernly from the perspective that pragmatism is not a first principle? What I mean is, are there any scholars of respectable merit and academic prowess who believe that even though women can engage in ministry, that it does not accurately reflect scripture?
Even if you find all their arguments on that particular issue unpersuasive — indeed, if you think those arguments far-fetched! — are there not some who do generally have scholarly merit and should be given academic license instead of suppression?
If I understand you correctly, your concern is maintaining a good academic environment, while acknowledging that an academic paradise is out of reach. I don’t think you were making statements about “fairness” one way or the other, so I would definitely not accuse you of being “unfair.”
It does indeed seem that conservative (read: complementarian) and liberal (read: egalitarian) views are mutually exclusive and cannot easily coexist. But preemptive exclusion of conservative males’ legitimate [by virtue of education] scholarship simply won’t do. Everybody agrees that males can teach, so prejudice against males who are generally legitimate but have certain iffy views is prejudiced, too.
Now, this is not a polemical against you, Sue. Your concerns (academic harmony and the humane treatment of women) are valid.
As for traumatic recollections, the solution does not lie in avoiding certain topics, but in addressing them. Counseling is the answer, not circumlocution. Places, words, ideas, and objects do not permanently cause traumatic recollections, if one faces the obstacle through counseling.
Personal preferences about what opinions others may hold and even assert have no place in a setting of genuine academic harmony, though. Enforcing a view of God that undeniably affirms or excludes any mindset, whether egalitarian or complementarian, does not have a place in SBL.
Daniel B. Wallace on 28 Nov 2009 at 7:26 pm #
Heidi, you said, “Raising the level of respect is indeed very easily done. You just haven’t done it.” This shows that you don’t know me. I don’t know a thing you’ve written, although I’m sure it’s extensive. How many books? Peer-reviewed journal articles? it seems that you are judging me without having a clue. I continue to regard that as naive.
I admit that evangelicals often—too often—lead with their theological chins. But have you not read any of the comments on this blog? Several evangelicals, especially emerging scholars, are tired of being branded as narrow-minded bigots who are closed to evidence. In my experience, it has been just the opposite: liberal scholars tend to be more closed minded than evangelicals. And if you think that SBL is conservative, then your definition of liberal is so far to the left that it’s not on the horizon. Again, I would say that a Christian is, by definition, conservative. And that means that he or she believes in the atoning work of Christ, the God-man, and in his bodily resurrection. Jan thought that I was defining things awfully narrowly, but this is the historic position of all three branches of Christendom. In light of that definition, I would say that SBL is overall not conservative, not Christian. That doesn’t mean that it’s not an important society! I’m simply defining things historically.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 7:30 pm #
I think that Jesus would take issue with that. To the Pharisees, he wasn’t conservative at all.
Susan on 28 Nov 2009 at 7:30 pm #
Heidi, first of all, Sue has a bit of a history here at Parchment and Pen. If you read certain threads of the past you would understand Luke’s and my responses.
Secondly, it is clear that you are not familiar with who Dan is, nor his work, when you say: ” Raising the level of respect is indeed very easily done. You just haven’t done it. You’re focusing on persecution, when you yourself are on a boundary line. Think less about institutions and more about readings that contribute to the dialogue. Demonize others less, and work more. Think harder, and write more persuasively. Think less of ego and standing and more of service. That’s all I can recommend to you.”
You might want to research Dan’s work, and read some of his papers before you give him such advise. He’s considered by many to be one of the top five NT scholars in the world.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 7:32 pm #
In terms of history, maybe a persusal of the award-winning books in the SBL would give you a flavor for what constitutes solid academic work.
“And if you think that SBL is conservative, then your definition of liberal is so far to the left that it’s not on the horizon.” That’s hilarious. Thanks for the giggle.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 7:34 pm #
Susan – My comments were directed at the people who he claims aren’t taken seriously by the SBL because of their institution, not Dan himself. What I’ve seen here is actually quite reasonable except for his narrow definition of a Christian in terms of assent to a charged historical doctrine.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 7:35 pm #
Top scholar, huh? Curious – who would be the others in your judgment?
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 8:05 pm #
You don’t need to go all ad hominem, Dan. I know you’re a perfectly good scholar of biblical Greek. And I’m still going to hold the same line – ultimately, it doesn’t matter where real intellectuals are, what institution they belong to. It only matters what they produce. You know this yourself.
C Michael Patton on 28 Nov 2009 at 8:14 pm #
First off, no more women posting here (unless their husbands type).
Second (and seriously), don’t let this thread go in THAT direction…And you know the direction I am talking about.
Other than that…very much enjoying this post.
It is getting a LOT of hits (especially for a holiday weekend).
C Michael Patton on 28 Nov 2009 at 8:15 pm #
BTW: I suppose that there will be some here who think I was not kidding about the “first off.” There…
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 8:32 pm #
My husband would be vicious. I’m trying to understand the feeling of persecution from someone who seems to be a pretty successful scholar.
TAVW on 28 Nov 2009 at 8:54 pm #
I went to DTS, earned two degrees (one of which was a ThM), and went on to earn an MTS at Duke. My time at Duke was a direct consequence of my having been turned down flat from the PhD programs to which I applied after Dallas. And, though I hate to say it, I think much of the prejudice against DTS grads, while often not rooted in educated opinion on the part of the particular people who harbor said prejudice, is nevertheless frequently on target.
For while I’m no fan of Protestant theological liberalism, it is certainly remarkable that a person can graduate from DTS with an academic emphasis in systematic theology and yet never once seriously read, say, Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, Schleiermacher, Barth, or Lindbeck. Moreover, biblical criticism is (at least as far as my experience went) often dismissed or downplayed at DTS with an embarrassing quickness, one somehow thought justified by the crippling modernist, hermeneutical straitjacket of inerrancy (at least insofar as inerrancy is seen through the lens of the Chicago Statement or its doctrinal analogs). And both theological method and biblical hermeneutics are taught with the most philosophically and historically shocking lack of self-awareness one might dare to think possible of a place boasting the production of “masters” of theology. In short, speaking from my own experience at DTS, there are huge gaps in the curriculum on matters theological, historical, philosophical, and critical (curiously, ones of which I would assume Dr. Wallace is largely well aware). And, in fact, professors interested in pursuing the rectification of those deficiencies, even to some small degree, have often found themselves in jeopardy of losing their jobs (occasionally to become pastors in Pennsylvania, for those who catch my drift).
At any rate, thanks to my time at Duke, I’ve currently been accepted to two highly prestigious doctoral programs in the US for theological studies. And, frankly, I’m glad I didn’t get into a reputable US PhD program prior to my time at Duke because, as I know now from the other side, I would have had no business being there. Don’t get me wrong; I love DTS and am grateful to have spent so much time there. But let’s not kid ourselves to think that, while perhaps methodologically dubious in terms of how obtained, the prejudice against DTS’s theological education at the Master’s level is not entirely without merit.
Sue on 28 Nov 2009 at 9:09 pm #
I don’t think that conservative candidates should not be accepted into secular programs. In fact, one of my profs in Toronto, a close friend and mentor, was the thesis supervisor for Wilbur Pickering. I don’t think there was anything wrong with that.
But I do appreciate TAVW’s point. Perhaps it really is the academics which hold back these students.
Sue on 28 Nov 2009 at 9:16 pm #
I guess I would have to ask if DTS prepares students in Latin, French and German, as well as Greek and Hebrew. Perhaps that is a difficulty.
C Michael Patton on 28 Nov 2009 at 9:23 pm #
TAVW,
Theological studies is really such a difficult issue since it is second level academics, especially when the institution promotes biblical exegetical theology.
With DTS, it is not simply an academic institution preparing people for a career in academics, but an institution preparing people for ministry.
It is much easier for, say, a New Testament department to demand an unbiased approach. However, when it comes to theology, especially systematic theology, then your bents are going to be more evident as exegetical commitments and hermeneutical presuppositions will come into bear. (To say nothing of philosophical and epistemological standings).
Anyway, I don’t know of any school that can be effective in producing ministers while broadening their theological brush so wide that they are seen as academically inclusive. Besides this, theology is so broad, it would be impossible.
Having said that, I join you in one aspect of your remarks: DTS did not have a strong theology department when I graduated in 2001. But…I don’t know of many schools that do these days.
But, the NT and OT departments can stand up to any school that I know of.
TAVW on 28 Nov 2009 at 9:24 pm #
Thanks, Sue. Certainly prejudice is a factor. But just because one is unethically prejudiced doesn’t necessarily mean one’s conclusions aren’t nevertheless correct. At any rate, adopting a more academically serious approach to theological studies at Dallas would certainly be the place to start (e.g., introducing and requiring at least one class in both theological ethics and philosophical theology for the academic track ThM students).
Sue on 28 Nov 2009 at 9:31 pm #
TAV,
There are several issues – first, can’t one consider what the text says without therefore saying that this is a requirement for present day Christians, ie obedience of slaves and women. And second, doctrinal commitments do change the way one views the text. The investment of a lifestyle and faith does constrain the reader and student of the text – unfortunately. Not that everyone doesn’t have some stake in the text.
But I am curious now as to what the language requirements are for the ThM.
Daniel B. Wallace on 28 Nov 2009 at 9:37 pm #
Gee, lots of things to talk about here. Too much, really. I really don’t think I’m being narrow at all if I define a Christian by what all three branches of Christendom, at a minimum, define one as.
Heidi, as for SBL being conservative, let me ask you this. Why do you think that Harold Hoehner, a man with two doctorates (one from Cambridge), world-class scholar, author of the monograph Herod Antipas (his Cambridge doctoral thesis), and a member of the prestigious SNTS, could not get a paper proposal accepted at SBL after repeated tries? The topic was the inauthenticity of Galatians. It was actually an argument that the criteria used to determine whether Ephesians was authentic could be used with Galatians, resulting in even stronger arguments against Galatians’ authenticity. Yet, since Galatians is one of the Hauptbriefe, it has been accepted by virtually all scholars since Baur. Why would this paper proposal get rejected? Or consider the fact that I wanted to have a panel discussion on the authenticity of 2 Peter at SBL. I told a colleague (a liberal scholar who influence some of the sessions) that I thought we all needed to be open to evidence on both sides. To my plea of open-mindedness he quipped, “2 Peter doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of being authentic, so there can be no discussion.” That’s open-minded for you!
TAVW: you are partially right. Prejudice against a DTS grad is not entirely without merit. But there are DTS students who strive to get a good education, who want to grapple with the critical issues, and who are introduced to historical-critical thought. I can’t speak to the other departments, but I can say that the NT department does not clamp down on students who deviate in their opinions. The problem is that DTS students who go on for doctorates in the States are often treated as though they all went through the same cookie-cutter. The prejudice runs deep when there are way too many exceptions.
When I was a ThM student at the seminary, at first I thought that Hoehner was joking when he spoke so positively of historical-critical examination of the NT. I didn’t realize at the time that he was really being favorable about the value of the various criticisms!
There is robust dialogue on numerous critical issues in our department. If you know otherwise, please do let me know.
TAVW on 28 Nov 2009 at 9:38 pm #
Thanks for the engagement, C Michael Patton. Indeed, my comments are not about the OT or NT departments per se. However, I never recall receiving philosophical justification for or a historical accounting of the underlying assumptions that went into the hermeneutics we were taught in BS101. And yet that course is expressly intended to be foundational for everything else we took at DTS, including what was taught later in OT and NT. Insofar, then, as our education simply assumed the theological/hermeneutical tenets of that class as a given, we carried a historical and philosophical lack of awareness regarding the contingencies assumed therein into every other course we took. For me, that those contingent assumptions were never explored, challenged, or justified later (for certainly, pedagogically, one has to begin somewhere), even in our upper level courses in OT and NT, is a serious problem for which not even biblical studies’ students receive sufficient correction. But, you are right, my specific gripes are couched in my experience of the explicitly theological with respect to a DTS ThM.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 9:46 pm #
Daniel – I couldn’t begin to guess why these individual anecdotes might have occurred, unless possibly it has to do with politics and egos among individuals making their careers… Perhaps one might ask the people involved, or use the grievance procedures rather than generalizing out to the entire SBL?
Michael T on 28 Nov 2009 at 9:48 pm #
Heidi,
I’m just curious as to how you would define “Christian”. Or is it simply undefinable in your perspective?
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 9:57 pm #
I worked within and for the AAR and SBL for a long time, editing Religious Studies News, and although I saw a fair bit of ego and pomp I didn’t ever deal with anyone that I would consider to be a capital j Jerk. There are plenty of quarrels, but I never saw censorship of the kind you mention. If anything, it went the other way – such that sometimes liberation theology and feminist theology was not seriously considered. In terms of Hebrew Bible and the Greek Scriptures, there was always a wide range of interpretative effort. I’m trying to think of the SBL as anything but conservative – maybe it’s radically different now…. but it’s really difficult to imagine.
Daniel B. Wallace on 28 Nov 2009 at 10:01 pm #
Heidi, these anecdotes are not even the tip of the iceberg. The problem is systemic. I’ve seen grown men booed out of a room because they held to the wrong view on the Synoptic problem. I’ve seen panel discussions in which the lone evangelical was treated as though his views were antiquated and wrong, even though no evidence was given. In one of my own lectures at SBL, a person said, as I was walking to the front of the room, “What could this idiot say that could possibly convince us that his view is even plausible?” He was silent afterward: I had spent 900 hours, working in seven languages, on that essay, later published in Biblica. A woman in her 70s, working on her doctorate at a major university, came up to me after that lecture, with tears in her eyes, and said, “Why didn’t I ever hear this position at my school?” Regularly, several of my liberal friends ask for any articles that I get published in conservative journals (I do publish in conservative journals as well as non-confessional ones) because they don’t get those journals at their school. Really open-minded, isn’t it?
I agree with TAVW that we must do a better job acquainting students to the various viewpoints, and I am grieved to hear that in some departments critical issues are not dealt with adequately. But I also have received numerous emails sent to me privately since I posted this essay yesterday—all from my current and former students who have gotten only disrespect from various scholars with whom they desperately want to study. You mentioned that a school does color a person, whether they like it or not. That’s true, but here’s a new wrinkle on that: A student who is shut out of a mainline school’s doctoral program because he or she is evangelical may go to an evangelical school instead. But this doesn’t mean that that’s the school he or she would “choose” as his first option. Your statement that a person is judged by the school he or she chooses is a little too black and white for the reality out there.
Daniel B. Wallace on 28 Nov 2009 at 10:07 pm #
Sue, can you tell me what the language requirements are for the equivalent degree at most other seminaries—i.e., the MDiv (which DTS does not have)? And how much Greek and Hebrew are required in those programs? I know of PhD programs in biblical studies that do not require ANY Greek or Hebrew! And I also know of several of my ThM students who will have gotten multiple years of Greek and Hebrew, not to mention German, French, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, and/or Aramaic. Two years ago, DTS had the largest Coptic class offered in the world. It’s by no means required, but there were several students in the course. In the PhD program, a student must pass a German and French exam in order to continue in his or her coursework. Latin is not required, but for the dissertation, ALL materials must be examined in their original language. Some thus go on to work on Latin, while others learn other languages.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 10:16 pm #
Sorry, Michael, missed you there.
Defining “Christian” is a pursuit that has a history of its own and has meant different things at different times and for different purposes for different people. First of all, it was a way to exclude others… but that didn’t happen for a long, long time, and it mostly had to do with political control.
At its simplest, to me being a Christian simply means to follow the Christ and his teachings, to realize the transcendent and connecting spirit of love within, and to express kindness and forgiveness and caring without. To walk in humility, but to stand up for compassionate ethics. We are all sons and daughters of God and we mustn’t treat anyone as subhuman.
Anything more is interpretation and commentary, and people will differ. Anything less is no longer Christian.
Jesus preached pretty much what other charismatic healers of his time preached, his story had the elements that were expected… What was important about him, to me, was the message expressed through the person.
That won’t satisfy the readers here, but I’ve been all over the spectrum on this from the Jehovah’s Witnesses of my youth, to comparative mythology, to observing what horrors religion can bring, to working through a path in which I am again guided – gently but firmly – to exploration, thinking, insight, meditation, and communion.
I’ve met dedicated Christians from all points of view – progressive, conservative, and everywhere in-between.
But I’m not a church member anymore, nor do I teach at a university because of student loan debt – between those two things, I suppose all my studies and struggles could be considered meaningless by those who hold those things close to their hearts – but they aren’t.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 10:37 pm #
Daniel – You make good points. If it’s a systemic issue, it should be brought up to the president, vp, and other officers. Behavior such as you describe has no place in a serious academic setting. The political situation in the States today has made this issue a pretty fiery one, but there should be a way to hold to standards in such a forum. I think there are scholars who dismiss evangelical work too easly, but I can understand why the tendency is there. My students at different universities were very poorly trained, many of them not even ready for college-level work. Some felt that the only christian way to read a text was to identify with the protagonist and then make moral judgments about their behavior. My own nephew dropped out of college when a bible course tried to present some current biblical scholarship – he couldn’t take the cognitive dissonance. That, and behavior such as trying to shout down and exclude others in the classroom based on some idea of a direct line to God makes some professors leery of directing dissertations by evangelicals. Who wants to end up on the Rush Limbaugh show? Who wants to sign their name to someone’s work when there is a good chance that it won’t be up to par? It’s not all black and white (I’m not fond of binaries, as you might suspect) – but perhaps the way to begin to change attitudes is to do exactly what you’re doing by publishing, showing excellence – and encouraging others to do the same. If the writing sample is preachy or judgmental, I can understand not wanting to direct the student, just as is also the case with people who have any other axe to grind.
Daniel B. Wallace on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:01 pm #
Heidi, finally we agree on something! I know that conservatives can be jerks in their doctoral programs, and master’s programs, and bachelor’s programs. My wife and I trained our four boys for ten years on how to get the most out of their college education. Each went to a secular school, fully approved by us. One of our boys was taking a class on ethics from an agnostic/atheistic (he never was sure which) philosophy professor. I told Noah, “Now, don’t be a jerk. Learn from him everything you possibly can. How often do you get a chance to learn ethics from a first-class scholar who may be agnostic/atheistic?” Noah took that advice and learned much from the prof; there was a mutually positive relationship that developed.
Now, about SBL: the problem is that SBL is itself only symptomatic of the real problem. Contrary to how you read what I wrote earlier, I do not feel persecuted. I’m not concerned about how SBL members view me. Rather, I am concerned that my better students, who have diligently prepared themselves for doctoral studies, are not getting any notice by the top tier schools because of their DTS pedigree. No matter how much some of us publish, the message doesn’t seem to be getting through.
C Michael Patton on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:04 pm #
Dan, can you give us some examples of schools that are characteristically turning down DTS grads?
Jugulum on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:08 pm #
Dr. Nordberg,
I suspect, given the content of Dr. Wallace’s post, that he is speaking as much from a sense of “proxy” persecution as from a sense of personal persecution.
I.e., he’s frustrated on behalf of his students.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:17 pm #
Hmmm… perhaps your’e right. I could have gotten sidewiped by that claim about unbelievers (in your sense) not welcoming the spirit…
Pragmatically here, going to the campus and meeting the professors they’d like to work with is really a very good idea because it makes you stand out. Sending their best piece of work with the application, and sending a couple more recommendations than what is required helps too. Comment #19 from Mike seems promising, at least.
The main thing to remember in my opinion is that the institution is less important than the resources available for the specific area of study. In my own studies, I had to search the country for someone who taught religion and literature – they don’t go together well except in masterpieces. Find the scholar, and go where the scholar is. Make sure they’ve got others there who can work with them, too (my director had a stroke before I was finished).
Admission committees fight for a small number of positions (growing smaller every year) but if they know you, there’s a better chance that they will fight to have you admitted as their student. Remember – there’s a *lot* of competition at those schools.
Daniel B. Wallace on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:17 pm #
Michael, I certainly can, but I hesitate to do so. If I name names, it may well bring about greater entrenchment from them. That is, rather than change their attitude, they might try to justify it further and be even more resolved to reject DTS grads. Since I am in the midst of writing recommendation letters for half a dozen students this month, it’s best not to identify any such schools here.
BTW, one of the key things the NT faculty ask students who want to get into our department for a PhD is how open they are to historical criticism. They may hold to a view that is far to the right of where we are, but if they are open to the evidence and can affirm a willingness to engage, rather than shut down or shout down, then they’re a decent candidate. Otherwise, not. This is all I would ask of those faculty at schools where some of DTS’s better graduates are applying.
Daniel B. Wallace on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:21 pm #
Heidi, I agree: personal appearances, getting to know the professors, etc. are very important. Michael is doing the right thing. (He’s one of my interns, by the way.) However, some schools do not allow prospective students to even write to the faculty, let alone visit them. And some professors refuse to answer emails from students from evangelical schools. It’s hard to make an appointment with a prof who won’t acknowledge that you exist!
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:26 pm #
Well, and some professors don’t respond to emails at all – or only the ones relating to their own students and work.
That’s why snailmail and visits are important. The departmental admin staff can set up an appointment sometimes, or just go directly to the Director of Graduate Studies for the department to arrange a campus visit and/or phone interviews.
Daniel B. Wallace on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:28 pm #
Yes, of course. Then again, some of us don’t respond to snail mail at all–takes too much time!
Heidi L. Nordberg on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:33 pm #
This has been very valuable and interesting.
Thank you for working hard for your students.
Daniel B. Wallace on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:37 pm #
Heidi, thank YOU for your willingness to dialogue on this issue. I’m encouraged.
Sue on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:40 pm #
Dan,
I concede. Language requirements are not quite what I thought. You are right about that.
However, I do find this puts some in a curious position since the ETS doctrinal statement says that Christ is equal in power and glory – this is a reference to Christ being equal to God in exousia, that is “authority.”
I was called out on this by a CBMW staff member, who simply was unwilling to follow the trail, which is that exousia was translated in the Vulgate as potestas, and this was translated by the KJV as “power” and ended up in the Westminster confession among other places, intended to mean that Christ was equal to God in exousia.
Either the CBMW was unable to trace the linguistic route through Latin, or they felt that the translation history of key phrases in the doctrinal statement are irrelevant. I don’t know which.
I do regard this as a serious anti-intellectualism on the part of those who hold to the ETS doctrinal statement as well as the eternal subordination of the Son. Its odd, and does not invite respect.
For me, Latin holds a key place as it is the vehicle through which we receive most if not all of our theological language in English. The CBMW called me out but I was unable to see where they defended their position on this point.
Jordan Wilson on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:44 pm #
As an outsider, I can’t speak on prejudice against evangelicals in academia, but I sure have noticed it in biblioblogs and discussion groups throughout the net. And if I can pick up on the bigotry, it speaks volumes about the intolerant mind-sets of those spouting it.
RobK on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:57 pm #
TAVW,
The responses to you, I find, are right on. Typically those top notch students who look to pursue PhD studies from DTS are students in the Old Testament or New Testament departments and have a language focus.
You seemed perplexed that a student from DTS may graduate without having read Augustine, et al, however, I find it quite perplexing that there are students getting into reputable PhD programs without having a solid handle on Hebrew, Greek, and other Near Eastern languages.
My focus on language indeed has me behind in “being read,” however, I’d much rather come out of a ThM program with a solid handle on 3-4 ancient languages and make up the reading as I go, than go into a PhD program being “well read” and then needing to spend 3 years getting to the point where I can have any facility with language.
To not have facility with language means that you are solely relying on the arguments of others who can deal first hand with the primary resources, whose works one would not be able to properly evaluate without language training. This type of PhD then writes a dissertation based on one’s own personal biases and argumentation that has not been properly assessed.
With that said, I’ll take DTS’s language program up against any Master’s language program in the US. To not give DTS respect and credit here is disingenuous on your part.
Rob
John on 29 Nov 2009 at 12:06 am #
Do you really WANT to study somewhere who doesn’t want you as a student? If you’re an evangelical, do you really want to be subject to the marking of someone who isn’t? Instead of hanging out with people 60% of which aren’t believers, why not stop hanging out with them and ignore them?
Daniel B. Wallace on 29 Nov 2009 at 12:20 am #
John, your position was addressed back in the 1940s when Carl Henry and others decided to abandon the fundamentalist separatism for a more robust, engaged faith that dialogued with those who did not believe. This is how Christianity Today got its start. I have answered this already, however: the reason is that we have things that we can learn from these scholars. To take but two examples: far and away the best Greek New Testament lexicon, which has a tradition going back over 125 years, got its major impetus from Walter Bauer, a man who was anything BUT a conservative. He dedicated most of his career to searching out lexical parallels to the NT in hellenistic literature. In the 1950s, his lexicon was translated into English for the first time. Later, a revised German edition came out. So important was the German edition that any bona fide NT scholar needed to work with the German text since it was the most up-to-date. In 2000, the third English edition came out. This lexicon is the standard today, and it stands behind virtually every modern translation of the New Testament.
Now, if you don’t like Bauer, perhaps you would prefer Thayer’s lexicon? Unfortunately, it’s outdated and was so almost as soon as it came off the press in the late 1800s. But I suspect you would have just as severe problems with Thayer as you would with Bauer, since Thayer was a Unitarian. Dallas Seminary requires all of its Greek students to get a copy of the Bauer lexicon.
Or consider the standard NT grammar by Blass-Debrunner-Funk. I don’t know the spiritual status of the first two, but Funk was the head of the Jesus Seminar. He didn’t believe much. I worked with Bob Funk for several years on a revision of this great grammar. The revised BDF never came to light, but I require all of my students in my elective in Greek grammar to get this grammar.
If you really want to have no association with those who are not Christians, then your world will be very small. You’ll need to throw out almost all books on the Christian faith–at least almost all those that are worth anything–because somehow in some way the authors have been influenced by liberal scholars. And you’ll have to read the King James Bible.
Christian on 29 Nov 2009 at 12:47 am #
Dr. Wallace
With this post you ably demonstrate the closed-mindedness of academic liberals which exists across the broad spectrum of academia, not just Biblical Studies departments. I’m thinking that the comments from those outside of the evangelical fold illustrate your point better than you might have imagined. And I think he may have been able to earn a little respect for DTS and perhaps evangelical scholarship along the way with those who hold the views he describes in his post.
But I submit the classic definition of liberalism that is used in this post (i.e. tolerant, open to different points of view, etc.) has not really been an accurate descriptor for liberals since the early part of the 20th century at the latest. One only has to look at the Fundamentalist-Modernist controversy (which DTS was essentially a product of) in the Northern Presbyterian Church to see that. A cursory glance at the treatment given by liberals to orthodox men like J. Gresham Machen, Clarence McCartney and others will reveal that liberals were anything but tolerant or open minded in the 1920’s and 30’s. Indeed, it was the moderates whose toleration of the liberals eventually led to the conservatives either being pushed out or sitting down, shutting up and being disengaged from denominational life. Now it’s true that those liberals had some differences with today’s liberals, (at the time of course, they were all still in the same church) but it’s essentially the same dynamic, one in which battle lines and identities have hardened after the better part of a century.
Outside of places like SBL, evangelicals and liberal academics do not talk much, and this often poisons the well when there is interaction. However, I don’t think we can erase the lines drawn by the Fundamentalist-Modernist controversy any more than we can erase those drawn by the Protestant Reformation and Rome’s counter reformation.
(FWIW political liberalism in the USA also has little to do with classic liberalism, which has more in common with libertarianism. In Europe it seems the traditional use of the term liberal in the political realm still holds.)
Luke on 29 Nov 2009 at 12:52 am #
Heidi,
I apologize for how you perceived my remarks to Sue, and I apologize to Sue if she took offense. I just didn’t want to see this post go down the complementarian/egalitarian route yet again.
My main point was that students at conservative institutions very often do not hold the same values and beliefs as those institutions and the professors that teach at them. Scholars and PhD committees should take this into mind when reviewing candidates from conservative institutions.
The way the system is set up now, I would probably have to go and get a second masters from a mainline institution if I wanted to have a chance of getting into a respectable PhD program at a mainline institution. Either that, or I would have to absolutely work my tail off at the conservative institution, learn 5 languages BEFORE I applied, travel to various schools BEFORE I applied (not cheap), try to get published BEFORE I applied. This is all doable, and I know someone who has done just that. It just doesn’t seem fair to put in all that extra work just so I can be considered for a respectable (non-confessional) program in the states. I would say this is downright impossible if you have a family. You’re going to have to work your tail off to get in a respectable PhD program no matter where you are educated, but why do those being educated at an evangelical seminary have to go the extra 10 miles?
Christian on 29 Nov 2009 at 1:15 am #
I can’t speak for John (comment #70) but only for myself. But is it necessary to study directly under certain academics at prestigious institutions (as the world counts prestige) to be conversant with their work and thought? I doubt anyone would say that it is necessary. It’s possible that may be what John had in mind. Whether it is or it isn’t, I think a distinction can clearly be made between using tools like Bauer’s lexicon and the necessity studying directly under those holding those views. (And I don’t take Dr. Wallace here to be arguing that it is necessary, only desirable in certain circumstances with certain students.)
I would also think that Dr. Wallace and Dr. Patton would agree that the kind of study contemplated in the post here is not something that someone pursuing a pastorate in an evangelical church would be advised to pursue. Dr. Patton seemed to allude to that earlier. Likewise, someone who is intending on an academic career in a secular institution might be best served taking a masters degree from somewhere other than an evangelical school an a dispensational one at that.
This post and thread also illustrate the need to count the cost before entering into a course of study. Calvinists shouldn’t be surprised if their views are met with hostility in more Arminian institutions. Likewise covenantalists in dispensational schools and vice versa. One example that comes to mind is hearing of students at the Masters Seminary complaining about the dispensationalism taught there, exclaiming “I thought John MacArthur was more Reformed than this.” Those students apparently didn’t even take the time to read the school’s doctrinal statement. The same goes for evangelicals in non-evangelical schools, and to students of a more liberal bent at confessional evangelical schools as well. Of course, those who change their views significantly (theologically and/or with regard to their calling) during their course of study will have to adjust accordingly.
I do think that the results of the New Evangelicalism that Dr. Wallace notes in his last comment (#71) that led to the founding of Christianity Today, Fuller Seminary, the NAE and a more inclusive approach taken by the Billy Graham crusades is decidedly mixed. I think an argument can be made that that split led to tragic results in both fundamentalism and evangelicalism, with the former arguably overemphasizing separatism and the latter arguably becoming too inclusive. But that’s probably a subject best left for another time and perhaps also for my own blog.
Darrin on 29 Nov 2009 at 1:17 am #
Dan Wallace:
// I really don’t think I’m being narrow at all if I define a Christian by what all three branches of Christendom, at a minimum, define one as.//
I know you’re addressing the direct question of whether you consider Penal Substitution necessary to salvation and the definition of a Christian by resorting to repeating this statement. Can you please, however, justify your belief directly, with Biblical support?
Darrin on 29 Nov 2009 at 1:20 am #
… sorry, that sounded a little harsher than I meant it to be.
John on 29 Nov 2009 at 1:22 am #
I don’t know that I wanted to suggest that everything secular is bad. Secular people can make good English dictionaries, and probably good Greek ones too. Lexicons and grammar are not essentially theological. Just because secular people can do useful work, doesn’t mean I want to study under them in a theological context. I guess it depends if you want to study something theological in nature, or something that is only tangentially related like Greek.
TAVW on 29 Nov 2009 at 1:37 am #
RobK, thanks for the engagement. I’m not sure you’re tracking with the core of my complaints. I’ve tried to be clear that my issues are largely regarding theological pedagogy (which, let us not forget, is necessarily involved in something as basic as language acquisition and biblical exegesis, how such is prioritized, etc.). On that side of things Dr. Wallace (who I have always appreciated for both his candor and theological courage in our limited personal interactions) appears to have largely conceded my point. And I would certainly never disparage DTS for its language programs; they are indeed virtually second to none. But I haven’t located the bulk of my displeasure in the above with DTS’s curriculum on its ability to produce nuts-and-bolts exegetes of the canon, have I? I’m talking about the broader theological sweep within which exegesis necessarily falls. That, and only that, is the locus of my angst.
Interestingly, however, the question that seems generally to have been left unexamined here is why it is that the obviously existent institutional/theological prejudice that Dr. Wallace has outlined has come to be. What is the genealogy of this discrimination and of what valid historical realities is it a distortion? This prejudice, after all, hasn’t arisen out of thin air. Part of what I’ve been gesturing towards here with my previous comments are the broader (and frequently ongoing) theological reasons this unfortunate, but not entirely baseless, bias has come to be. I think, in other words, there might be some concessions that need to be made alongside of Dr. Wallace’s complaints. He, at least, ostensibly sees some merit in what I’m after. Am I wrong on that front, Dr. Wallace?
Luke on 29 Nov 2009 at 1:55 am #
TAVW,
I think I’m with ya. It’s not an arbitrary prejudice, it’s rooted in the history of evangelicalism, the history of DTS, the history of how our fathers and grandfathers behaved, etc. I’d be the first to admit this, if that’s what you’re getting at.
The point I want to make, while conceding to your claim, is that history is not static. Just because our fathers and grandfathers conservative institutions behaved and believed this way does not mean that we automatically follow suit. Every new generation should be given a fresh hearing and we should not have to pay for our fathers’ shortcomings. Agreed?
TAVW on 29 Nov 2009 at 2:35 am #
Thanks, Luke. Well, I don’t want to say that we shouldn’t have to pay for our fathers’ shortcomings, but I would definitely say that most inaccurate or unethical prejudices are typically sustained by either intellectual laziness or a failure of sufficient curiosity on the part of those who hold them. So I agree with you that those professors who automatically and without second thought disregard doctoral applications from DTS students simply because of their alma mater are in the wrong and in need of serious intellectual and moral correction.
But, further, (and you put it well, Luke) we musn’t forget that academic track ThM graduates who emphasize in biblical studies aren’t applying to university PhD programs with transcripts whose contents are limited only to those courses taken with intellectually serious and theologically inquisitive professors. A NT graduate from DTS doesn’t send her application to Yale in a historical, social, or theological vaccum that can somehow escape the bigger context that is Dallas Theological Seminary and all that that entails. There are some very serious and completely legitimate reasons for doctoral admissions committees to be wary of DTS applicants because of that in which that broader context subsists and I think these needed to be ceded as genuinely valid (and, again, often ongoing) liabilities (if only for the purposes of DTS’s making the proper emendations). I am, in other words, simply asking that we be mindful of potential beams in our adamance regarding institutionally discriminatory specks.
And I don’t say any of this as one who cannot empathize with the discriminated against; as I’ve said, it took a masters degree from Duke (equaling my third, Lord have mercy!) before anyone gave my doctoral applications any credence.
Gary on 29 Nov 2009 at 5:00 am #
Luke, you’ve got an Ezekiel-type prophetic streak somewhere in that last comment.
The Divine Conspiracy Blog » Blog Archive » Theological Liberalism on 29 Nov 2009 at 5:54 am #
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John on 29 Nov 2009 at 6:24 am #
Yeah, you can learn something from an atheist, but is it worth the aggravation? What is the ultimate purpose of all this learning anyways?
Lisa Robinson on 29 Nov 2009 at 3:16 pm #
TAVW,
As a current student, I appreciate your insights and honesty regarding the educational process at DTS. On one hand, I would agree with you in that certain courses are taught with a presuppositional hermeneutic. Moreover, in conjunction with CMP’s comment about DTS’s primary goal being ministry training, not all course work does involve extensive critical examination nor do all students care to or even do engage in a rigorous critical examination of theology, particularly their own (she’s says by way of observation).
But I’m going to push back a little on your overall treatise of inadequate academic preparation as a whole. I find that for the serious minded and academically oriented students, there are significant opportunities to engage in scholarship consistent with other institutions. First, you paint a picture that portrays a sterile learning environment exclusive of other points of view. This simply isn’t the case. Students are at least made aware of other theological and hermeneutical methods, particularly in the systematic courses. I have had reading and writing assignments in these courses that have involved non-evangelical, non-protestant and even liberal based material.
Second, students have tremendous resources at their disposal to engage in more rigorous resources above and beyond the course work. Most notably the professors, many of whom have published a wealth of academic material themselves. Not only can students utilize up to four credit hours of independent research guided by faculty, but internship opportunities exists with faculty members that affords the serious student with research and insights in the academic community. There is also a plethora of resources available in the library to engage with the divergent opinions that are at least mentioned in some courses for the student so motivated to research them. So at least be fair about the opportunities that exist.
I’m also curious what year you graduated? I am in the systematic theology track and do have to take at least one philosophy of religion course, possible two.
Lifewish on 29 Nov 2009 at 4:13 pm #
John: “Just because secular people can do useful work, doesn’t mean I want to study under them in a theological context.”
I get the impression that complaining about a Biblical scholar because of their beliefs is like complaining about a grandmaster chess player because in their last game they played the black side.
Juergen on 29 Nov 2009 at 4:35 pm #
As a ‘conservative’ student who studied in Germany, the cradle of the ‘liberal’ theology, I am quite surprised to see such agitation.
The debates between ‘conservative’ and ‘liberal’ scholars, at least what I know about Germany, has nothing to do with theological evidences. It’s a matter of presuppositions: Someone who believes that the Bible is the Word of God written by men, cannot be scientific!
It took as in Germany decades to get a accreditation for a Seminary with conservative background. And this still doesn’t mean that these students will be accepted at the Universities. Again, it has nothing to do with the evidences. It’s a matter of presuppositions.
It is true, we can learn a lot from ‘liberal’ scholars. They’re asking often very good questions (if the answers are good is another question). My question, after I have read the article from Dr. Wallace and the comments would be:
How would you define the difference between the Historic-Critical Method and Historic-Grammatical Method?
C Michael Patton on 29 Nov 2009 at 4:41 pm #
Juergen,
Interesting question. I have never really seen the two distinguished as if they represent different interpretive camps. Those along with “authorial intent hermeneutics” and “historical-literary hermeneutics” are all synonymous to me.
Lisa Robinson on 29 Nov 2009 at 5:09 pm #
My understanding is that the historical-critical method, birthed out of German rationalism, examines the Bible as a literary device exclusive from divine revelation. The resulting higher criticism analyzes the text in context of comparative literature to derive at a reasoned understanding of what it could mean separate from any divine meaning. Under historical criticism, language is a tool of contemporary culture of that time.
The historical-grammatical method examines the literary functions from a similar stance but does not divorce the writings from its divine source. The historical-grammatical method would have as foundational 2 Timothy 3:16-17, that all Scripture is breathed out by God, and delivered through human authorship under divine guidance. Thus, historical-grammatical would adhere to verbal plenary inspiration and also consider the text in context of God’s overall program.
Of course, if I got any of this right in relation to where Dr. Wallace is coming from, I’m now curious how advanced work in NT would necessitate utilizing an historical-critical model.
A. M. Mallett on 29 Nov 2009 at 6:02 pm #
Liberalism in theological circles imitates that of the secular world having become the new bastion of bigoted intolerance. The theological “liberal fundamentalist” pines for legitimacy just as awkwardly as the statist fundamentalist does in his political domain. The objectives of each intertwine in an amazingly close circle. Anthony Freeman, a New Age Anglican with still standing ordination, denies the existence of a monotheistic God while fully embracing the Statist inclinations of an anti-Christian society and he is far from alone. Whether Unitarian or Congregationalist, the joining of intolerant and bigoted mindsets with sectarian counterparts is a growing influence in Christendom (I deliberately contrast such a span of Christian influenced thought from that of Christianity within the pale of orthodoxy). Perhaps the proper course is to allow a schism to be defined between those so inclined and orthodoxy itself.
Learning on 29 Nov 2009 at 6:49 pm #
Dr. Wallace,
Just curious, if dispensationalism is supposed to represent the conservative or one of the conservative systems of interpretation what is the liberals system of interpretation? What is it called? :
– ” Dispensationalism ” = Conservative
– ” ???????????????? ” = Liberal (harvard,claremont,etc…)
And also, what are some other systems of interpretations that conservatives hold to? thanks.
C Michael Patton on 29 Nov 2009 at 7:09 pm #
While dispensationalism is inclusive of an interpretive method, there are other things that are involved such as a theological assumption of progressive revelation.
However, the authorial intent hermeneutic is not privy to dispensationalism as conservatives and liberals alike use it.
It is the philosophical and theological assumptions that are brought to the table that often shape the outcome that is sometimes at issue, not the interpretive method and certainly not dispensational theology (or, as Dan is arguing, it should not be).
Daniel B. Wallace on 29 Nov 2009 at 7:29 pm #
This has been a most stimulating conversation, friends! It’s hard to keep up with the questions that are directed toward me, so I’m sure I’m missing some of them in my response.
As for learning from liberal scholars, as I said earlier, they have a lot to teach us. And it is certainly not true that learning Greek is a fringe topic regarding these matters! The true liberal scholar is one who does not demand from his or her students that they fall lock-step in line with his or her views, but allows their students the freedom to explore, disagree, challenge. In a limited sense, most professors are that way. But they all draw the line somewhere. Dallas Seminary, for example, requires students to sign a seven-point doctrinal statement. Not all of us agree that this should be required, though. BTW, dispensationalism is NOT one of the seven points–nor is premillennialism. In fact, my sense is that perhaps most DTS students are not dispensationalists.
I have learned a great deal from a number of liberal scholars. F. C. Baur, in fact, is somewhat of a hero of mine for his application of Hegelian dialectic to NT studies. I just think he took it too far (both chronologically and theologically), but I agree that there is theological development in the NT. And I learned that from Baur. The fascinating tensions in biblical studies can be seen in the various presuppositions that scholars bring to the table. Generally speaking, liberal NT scholars tend to see greater theological disparity in the NT, roots in a Greco-Roman milieu, later dates to the books, pseudonimity, etc., while conservative scholars tend to move in opposite directions. The best of biblical theology could not have happened without the impetus given by liberal scholarship, and the views on date and authorship would have been mired in unchallenged presuppositions if it weren’t for liberals. Evangelicals have come to appreciate more the Greco-Roman world and have had to wrestle with tensions within the NT because of liberal scholarship.
But as one commenter noted, extremes on either side are driven by presuppositions, not evidence. Martin Hengel once wrote that left-wing radicals and right-wing fundamentalists are cut from the same cloth: they both start with their presuppositions and let them dictate the outcome.
As I said previously, I believe that the historical-critical method (HC) is extremely valuable for biblical studies. The basic difference between the evangelical and the liberal application of such is a few key presuppositions. If you don’t believe that miracles or prophecy are even possible, then that will dictate the outcome of your use of these tools. If you are open to the possibility of the miraculous, but are willing to engage the biblical evidence, then the evidence will have a larger role in the outcome. In this respect, the best evangelical HC may be the only true HC.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 29 Nov 2009 at 7:49 pm #
Well, I thought I was done with this, but I guess I’m not.
To A. M. Mallett: liberal = bigoted intolerance? That’s double-speak.
I think there are fundamentalists in every religion – and outside religion. What they bring is an insatiable desire for power and control, violence and an inability to listen. I would grant that there are those among the liberals, but compared to conservative authoritarians? I see much in common across religions on this particular line.
I really don’t see how this works out. How about just not demonizing others? My own faith is regularly tested by people who claim to be Christians and then come out with words and behavior that is so anti-agapic as to be surreal. Truly, how can you claim to be a Christian and hate others? How can you claim to be a Christian and have such hubris?
While most of the other commenters are reasonable, it’s this kind of thing that gives me a chill and makes me step back. It’s the kind of thing I hear from JW trolls, and others like them. I have nothing to learn from haters.
The university, by its very nature, is a liberal institution, a place for the sharing of ideas and peer debate and mutual respect. Whenever an ideology of any type can overwhelm that, the university is dying. I agree that the left-wing discourse of liberation and freedom has often been subsumed under a rather silly form of “political correctness” (and remember that terminology is a jibe from the right). They thought that if they modified the language, it might help to change the conditions. They were wrong. But the idea of dialogue and debate and respect are still liberal values. And please, please remember that there are faithful Christians who are progressive, who believe in a God that is Love.
RobK on 29 Nov 2009 at 7:49 pm #
TAVW,
I guess what I’m getting at, which I failed to express in my last comment, is that the students Dr. Wallace seems to have in mind who have been oppressed are not those students that gravitate towards the BE department but rather the OT and NT departments.
The 6 required BE classes, as you know, are excess fat. Fair enough. With that said however, even with the excess fat cut out the amount of credits taken in language and electives stands tall with any MAR program out there, and it’s been my experience that PhD programs are most interested in students with a MAR. So at the end of the day, DTS students in my view are just as qualified for reputable PhD programs if they gravitate towards the language departments.
Rob
RobK on 29 Nov 2009 at 7:56 pm #
Dr. Wallace,
Thanks for the post. I can certainly relate. I recently had meeting with an Old Testament professor from Yale University.
When he asked about my academic training and I explained how I currently had 8 semesters of both Greek and Hebrew, plus Aramaic and Ugartic and how I am a research assistant for a former Yale professor, helping him publish several articles and books, the Yale prof was very interested in having me as an applicant for Yale’s PhD program. However, he then asked where I was studying and once he heard DTS the entire conversation went south.
Just another example to illustrate the validity of your comments in this post.
Dan Wallace on The Myth of Theological Liberalism « Tolle Lege! on 29 Nov 2009 at 8:26 pm #
[...] beliefs. In other words, how a student at a conservative school is stereotyped by liberals. Click here. Want to subscribe?: Subscribe to Rob's blog by clicking the "subscribe to feed" link [...]
Daniel B. Wallace on 29 Nov 2009 at 9:10 pm #
I would like to temper my previous comments with another point, friends. DTS is very strong in the biblical languages; I think we’re all agreed on that. The strength within this realm is on exegesis. But I don’t think we’re particularly strong in historical criticism. Students get this in NT Intro, and in the Intro to Exegesis course (fourth semester of Greek). They also get it in any Gospels elective they take. But after fourth semester Greek and NTI, the only required NT course is Romans. Now, to be sure, we do talk about embedded hymns in Romans, whether chapters 15 and 16 were added later, etc. And I suggest a few places where oral tradition and dominical sayings are most likely behind what is written. But Romans can only yield so much for HC. The Gospels are the key here. DTS does have a very, very popular elective called “Exegesis in Gospel Narratives.” Co-taught by two of the following three profs: Bock, Harris, and Burer. Well received, and interacts significantly with HC, showing its value and limitations throughout the course. But…
When our graduates go on for doctoral studies, they often find that they were short-changed in one of two areas: either historical criticism or translation. Sometimes both. Once our grads get into various schools, as a rule those schools then open their doors for more DTS graduates. That’s because the students shine in syntax, exegesis, detailed analysis of the text. And they pick up on their translation skills pretty quickly, and get into historical criticism better. But more could be done in these areas to prepare the students more completely. Several faculty are working very hard behind the scenes to shore up both of these weaknesses. It’s an encouraging sign. And, to be sure, a good number of PhD-bound students are also working hard to shore up these weaknesses while in the master’s program by taking key electives.
Juergen on 29 Nov 2009 at 9:28 pm #
I’m coming back to my question I asked before, because I think that we are blurring the line to much between, how Dr. Wallace called said, “the true HC” and HC. A clear definition can help us a lot:
“How would you define the difference between the Historic-Critical Method and Historic-Grammatical Method?”
@Dr. Wallace: It would be great if you could give us a definition.
@Lisa: I like your definitions. They are a good starting point.
If your distinction is right (that HC-Scholars deny divine authorship), shouldn’t their be then also a clear distinction in the term we’re using for claiming our own method of exegesis? If it is for HC-Scholars common sense that divine authorship is a fairy tale, do we not desperately need a distinction to avoid a blurred theology?
Dr. Wallace says in his article about the NT-Department at DTS:
“We teach a historical-critical method of interpretation, tempered by our presuppositions that the universe is not a closed-system but one in which God has been active.”
If the denial of the divine authorship is one of the major characteristic of the HC how does his Statement fits together with the First Article of the Doctrinal Statement of DTS:
“We believe that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” by which we understand the whole Bible is inspired in the sense that holy men of God “were moved by the Holy Spirit” to write the very words of Scripture.”
I think we need a clear definition of HC or Dr. Wallace, if he signs this statement, is contradicting himself.
Bent Notes » I’d hoped to just have some hot buttered rum and play my Perry Como records on 29 Nov 2009 at 10:01 pm #
[...] to give a rest for a while, what do I stumble on this evening during a Net-surfing session but this Parchment and Pen post on the recent annual meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature. Tales of theological libs [...]
Sue on 29 Nov 2009 at 10:01 pm #
RobK,
I just want to say that I feel for you. You have me convinced that there is a legitimate problem. The issue then is whether liberals are simply intolerant – I am sure they are – and whether anything can be done about it.
Is it really dispensationalism itself, or other factors. Some of the problems I see are that believing in divine inspiration often sets certain boundaries. For example, authorship is by self attestation, scripture must be consistent, it must always have a message, and so on. Sometimes this strains belief. It sounds as if the basic tools are in place, but DTS has a reputation for something undesirable.
Although I am quite sure that liberals can be dismissive and intolerant to conservative Christians, they view conservative Christians as intolerant of women, homosexuals and any non-Christians. Are these two kinds of intolerance equivalent?
[Comments deleted by Mod]
Joshua Allen on 29 Nov 2009 at 10:06 pm #
The university, by its very nature, is a liberal institution, a place for the sharing of ideas and peer debate and mutual respect. Whenever an ideology of any type can overwhelm that, the university is dying.
Weren’t Harvard and Yale both founded as Puritan institutions? I’ve never heard anyone describe the first 100 years or so of either institution as being free from ideology.
C Michael Patton on 29 Nov 2009 at 10:11 pm #
Sue, I already warned about hijacking this thread for your purposes. I specifically warned about going in that direction.
Please read the rules of this blog and heed to them.
Keep on target. This thread is going too good to be sidetracked.
The sidetracking comments have been deleted.
C Michael Patton on 29 Nov 2009 at 10:17 pm #
Josh,
Good point. There is no such thing as an absolutely “ideology free” university, nor could their be since the very idea is self defeating!!
However, there is certianly a place for breadth in the education.
C Michael Patton on 29 Nov 2009 at 10:19 pm #
Here are the blog rules once again:
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/blog-rules/
Charles on 29 Nov 2009 at 10:25 pm #
Rob,
How am I supposed to take your comment concerning BE and BE students as BE Ph.D. student?
A Good Discussion and A Not So Good Memory « Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth on 29 Nov 2009 at 10:26 pm #
[...] Good Discussion and A Not So Good Memory Dan Wallace’s post Frustrations from the Front: The Myth of Theological Liberalism has generated some really good discussion over the past couple of days. I haven’t found an [...]
RobK on 29 Nov 2009 at 10:59 pm #
Charles,
I can’t speak for the PhD program only the ThM program. You are free to voice your disagreement.
Rob
RobK on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:05 pm #
One other note on my previous comment:
What I am getting at is that the Academic preparation resides in the OT and NT departments. The BE department surely has a good ministerial purpose as well as helping students who are not acquainted with the Bible learn the overall message, but when it comes down to PhD preparation a student should gravitate towards other departments.
Charles on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:19 pm #
I don’t want to be accused of drifting off topic here. But I would suggest that your remarks about BE are unnecessarily disparaging. Keep in mind that one of the distinctives of DTS has and continues to be coverage of all 66 biblical books. This distinctive cannot be accomplished with the more intensified and focused study of select books in the OT and NT courses. Survey type BE courses are not “excess fat” for students that come to DTS without previous exposure to much of the Bible. Should not biblical and theological students be exposed to the ultimate primary source, the Bible itself? But BE as a discipline is not just about Bible survey. Rather the discipline is a convergence point of hermeneutics, biblical and systematic theology, exegesis, and homiletics, etc.
Charles on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:25 pm #
Rob,
It seems to me that your continued comments fail to grasp the academic contributions of BE as a discipline in its own right. You are certainly welcome to your opinion concerning what constitutes proper academic preparation for Ph.D. work but I would disagree.
RobK on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:27 pm #
Charles,
Did you post this before my second response to you (comment 07) which further clarified?
RCK
RobK on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:28 pm #
Yes, we disagree. However, I’ll again say that I can speak for the PhD program.
RobK on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:29 pm #
can’t*
Charles on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:29 pm #
Yes, but I think your further comment is also unfortunate as reflected in my second response.
Charles on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:32 pm #
I am not merely speaking of the BE Ph.D.. program. I would suggest that my remarks also relate to the Th.M. program.
RobK on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:38 pm #
I’m happy to further elaborate off list.
Michael T on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:43 pm #
Heidi,
Sorry I’ve been gone and haven’t had a full chance to respond to your definition of Christian. I’m honestly not going to try to convince you your wrong in your definition, however it seems to me that your definition is just as arbitrary as the historical one that people like Dan or Michael would advocate. One could certainly think of ways to draw the boundaries wider then you do and on the other hand I could draw it so narrow if I wanted to that I would be the only Christian there is.
In the end game I don’t think it is academically improper for CMP or Dan to define Christianity as they do in such a way that excludes some people. Ultimately what I think makes a good student (and a good academic) is not whether or not they hold presuppositions or beliefs (face it we all do) on certain issues, but whether or not they are willing to question and reexamine those presuppositions and beliefs in light of the evidence presented.
C Michael Patton on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:44 pm #
I have to say that this has been better than the last ten books I have read combined!
Thanks you all for your continued discussion here.
Here is a direction that I think these types of conversations inevitably go. Wait…let me start with a saying:
“To offer options is academic. To offer opinions is naive.”
Once we begin to separate these issues (options and opinions), we have lost our cause and are wasting time. At that point just go watch reruns of Grey’s Anatomy and you will be better equipped for life.
I cannot speak for Dan with certainty, but I hardly think that he is attempting to drive a wedge in the different academic disciplines that DTS (or any other seminary) have to offer. While there are different levels of academics here (exegesis, biblical theology, systematic theology, homiletics, and pastoral ministries), there are not different priorities.
I used to listen on a certain theologian over a cup of coffee every day for years as he complained about the OT department and their inability to “do” theology. I have heard exegetical scholars scoff at the idea of church history as I proposed a book project to them that included looking more into the traditions of the church. I continually deal with philosophers who believe that all of these (exegesis, theology, biblical studies) are complete vanity as truth is too dynamic to pin down with any sufficient relevance.
One of the things that separates us as believers is that we have a commitment to truth, not for truth’s sake, but for the sake of the great commission and the glory of God. We don’t always lead with that, but we do always conclude with it.
I, like Charles, think that saying that biblical studies is “excess fat” is very one dimensional and would only expect something like that from an unbeliever or someone who has run into a bit of tunnel vision in his ministry. I could just as well say as an epistemological philosopher that everything outside of ontology and epistemology is not only excess fat, but an unjustifiable marathon. However, I would never say that. Not because I am not a philosopher (which I am not), but because I understand the value and necessity of seeing all of these areas work together.
However, I do think that for the type of academic ministry that Dan is talking about, the non-confessional schools are not ever going to be interested in anything other than first level academics. That is not a slight to biblical studies or theology, it is just because the institutions are going to remain non-confessional and speculative. But this is a theory that is being challenged by Dan’s assertion that “liberal” schools are not truly liberal when that are biased against DTS grads.
Lisa Robinson on 29 Nov 2009 at 11:50 pm #
Charles, relative to the topic of this post, the issue is not whether the ThM program adequately prepares a student for PhD work in a conservative evangelical seminary but if it provides adequate preparation for work in a mainstream academics.
This presumes that at the ThM level, students are introduced to and engaged in rigorous critical analysis of positions that differ from their own. Not to speak for Rob, but does the BE department really allow for such engagement?
To be candid, I have found the ST and NT courses to be far more revealing this type of analysis than in BE. That is not to say that BE does not provides excellent preparation for ministry or even continuing PhD work at DTS or other similar institutions. I’m sure it does.
RobK on 30 Nov 2009 at 12:03 am #
CMP,
You say,
“I, like Charles, think that saying that biblical studies is “excess fat” is very one dimensional and would only expect something like that from an unbeliever or someone who has run into a bit of tunnel vision in his ministry. I could just as well say as an epistemological philosopher that everything outside of ontology and epistemology is not only excess fat, but an unjustifiable marathon.”
But here you are not taking into account 2 things:
1) I qualified my statement with an explanation that it is not helpful for PhD studies. 2) Charles himself admitted its helpful for students that have no exposure to the Bible (as I also affirmed the BE dept is helpful here). In the context of this discussion we’re comparing DTS with other top tier institutions, such basic training is assumed at these institutions.
All that to say the words “excess fat” in the context of this conversation is fair and appropriate. Moreover, I don’t follow the example of the epistemological philosopher–if you make this illustration completely analagous I think you’ll see more of my point. A student PhD bound in epistemological philosophy is surely going to call several survey courses “excess fat” when matched up with other top teir institutions who are preparing students for PhD studies because at these other institutions these survey courses will be assumed knowledge. So again, I defer to the context of this conversation, one which is comparing DTS with first rate master’s programs throughout the US.
I’m sorry to hear that you think such comments have bearing on whether or not someone is acting as a believer or unbeliever. That’s unfortuneate.
C Michael Patton on 30 Nov 2009 at 12:19 am #
Rob,
I said and unbeliever or one dimensional. We do have a lot of unbelievers who come on this blog so it was not meant to be cutting in any way, especially since I don’t know you and did not even remember who made the “excess fat” comment (if it was you). I am sorry if it was taken the wrong way.
You misunderstood my comment about philosopher. I was saying that they COULD call all else, including original language studies, excess fat. In fact, I have seen them do this very often. Have had this argument with an atheistic philosopher ad nauseam. But, in those cases, I have to grant their starting point unless I am a presuppositionalist in that respect.
I understand what you are saying about PhD at the type of institution with regard to BE. I would even say that same thing with regard to the theology department. One normally should expect to go into comparative religions instead of “theology” when a PhD is sought. However, I think that “excess fat” was not a good way to put it as all Masters programs will carry important yet “non-relevant” (probably a better way to put it) for the particular PhD that is sought. This is especially the case with DTS as their ThM is 120 hours.
Either way, no need to get side tracked based upon a difference of opinon about what was the best wording.
CD-Host on 30 Nov 2009 at 12:25 am #
Daniel –
Let me give you an example of the problem which comes right from the school you mention Dallas, and a Professor you respect Darrell Bock. Bock has written two books, The Missing Gospels and Breaking the daVinci Code, examining the New School. (For lurkers the new school is Walter Bauer and modern followers: Pagels, Koester, Ehrman, Birger Pearson, John Turner, Karen King….)
He asserts virtually by faith that they are wrong and the traditional view is correct. Open those books and look at the argument it happens in like 2 pages. He daVinice he begs the question by treating Acts as accurate history of the early church and Timothy as a Pauline book, etc… In Missing he goes further and asserts a lack of early evidence for diversity which is precisely what the new school has produced, quasi-Christian literature going back to about 200 BCE.
This is the problem with evangelical scholarship it doesn’t honestly address liberal scholarship. It attacks straw men. And further while it may pretend towards a neutral perspective it is constantly trying to sneak in theological assumptions (like the early dating of Acts). If you read Pearson for example he systematically over the course of a lifetime slowly argues for the ordering of books and considers every piece of evidence carefully. And this is not unique to Bock, you see the same sort of pseudo-science in the evangelical climate debate and in things like creation science.
I’m sorry your students are discriminated against but I imagine the same thing would happen to people who went to a flat earth school trying to study geology or people who went to a creationist school trying to study biology or people who went to a school that focused on the continuous theory of matter who tried to study chemistry. Evangelicals believe that in a secular context that Yahweh should be treated differently than Zeus, Jesus different than Achilles and the Bible differently than Homer. In a secular context just the opposite should occur: the governing assumption is that there are no gods, demons, angels, avatars, nature spirits or ancestral ghosts these mythical entities have a literature which is the subject of study and that is it.
Sue on 30 Nov 2009 at 12:40 am #
If, in fact, those who are well prepared in languages are still having difficulty getting into a PhD program, then I think the faculty needs to look at this seriously. I don’t think it helps to simply lay the blame at the door of the liberal institutions. Even if they are being intolerant, the real question is about what steps the DTS faculty can do to ameliorate this situation for their own students.
A good place to start is to ask if it really does relate to dispensationalism, or something else. Is it the political climate? What other possibilities? I would like to hear Rob’s take on what he thinks is causing the difficulty.
C Michael Patton on 30 Nov 2009 at 12:42 am #
CD,
Thanks for commenting. Very interesting.
I am wondering how your comments do not demonstrate the point of this post. I am especially taken aback by your statement here: “I imagine the same thing would happen to people who went to a flat earth school trying to study geology.”
If I did not know better, I would think that you were a plant!
Are you equating DTS education in NT studies to a sort-of flat earth mentality in NT? If so, doesn’t this attitude demonstrate that you are not really open minded, but characteristically dismissive of opinions that might be more traditional or considered to the far right of you?
Finally, if I might ask, are you involved in biblical academia? If so, how?
Luke on 30 Nov 2009 at 12:57 am #
Great questions Sue. I think you’re heading in the right direction. In your opinion, how does the faculty help ameliorate this situation for their students?
Sue on 30 Nov 2009 at 12:59 am #
I think CD’s point is well taken. Has DTS published books and articles that affect its reputation as an academic institution. And is this fair to its students?
Sue on 30 Nov 2009 at 1:07 am #
Cross-posting, Luke. First let me say that as someone who spent four years getting skills in five lgs. it is a grueling task, best undertaken as young as possible, and ought to be respected. So, if DTS students are making this commitment, I am behind them.
If I were in leadership in an institution, I would be greatly concerned about the reputation of the institution and take it as my responsibility.
I don’t think it is good enough to talk about the “offense of the cross” or some such thing. This is not going to help. But I don’t really know exactly why DTS students are not desired. I am asking these questions
- lacking broad academic preparation
- dispensationalist
- preach restrictions against women and homosexuals
- believe in inerrancy which means that Paul had to have written Timothy and 1 Cor. 14:34-35.
- polls demonstrate that DTS grads are not against torturing war prisoners
I think number four is the best candidate, but perhaps it is a combination.
CD-Host on 30 Nov 2009 at 1:17 am #
C Michael –
To stick with my Bock example I read both of his books. I also read NT Wright’s book on the New School and Peter Jones and a few by conservative Catholics and…. I think that demonstrates I’m open to their arguments. I’ve cited Daniel’s stuff on translation. Yes I’m very familiar with evangelical scholarship on a very wide range of issues.
But, lets be clear there is a huge difference between, co-equal argumentations which lead one to have an open mind, a settled theory and just plain dishonest scholarship. Bock’s books, not say the NET translation are a great example of why DTS has problems. Bocks books were written by an academic about a major important and theory of biblical scholarship with rapidly growing influence. They carried the DTS name quite deliberately. Now I don’t know Bock’s heart but my read is that they deliberately misrepresented his opponent’s positions, deliberately mischaracterizes the evidence and deliberately omitted important facts. That to the best of my knowledge is not acceptable behavior in any kind of scholarship.
Where it is acceptable is in politics. Politics and scholarship should be separate. In the United States politically there is a wide open debate on global warming, academically there is not. Things that are open to debate politically are not open to debate academically; and visa versa. What I’m saying is that DTS takes positions on issues in line with its political faction (the evangelical movement) even when the scholarship doesn’t support those positions.
Sticking with the climate change analogy will work. There are many scientists who write heavily read articles skeptical of climate change. To the best of my knowledge there are 2 in the United States that have gotten those articles published in peer reviewed journals and those only attacked specific study methodologies. An academic work would treat the skeptical position as fringe, a political work would treat the two positions equally. A climate change scientist heavily funded by the oil industry is going to receive additional scrutiny because at the end of the day he might not be in to knock off a good publication and get tenure.
Being a liberal does not mean being undecided about whether 2+2 is 4 or 5.
C Michael Patton on 30 Nov 2009 at 1:24 am #
Sue,
You forgot a few:
-as a theological school should broaden their studies of the ThM from 120 hours to 240 including English lit and Biology
-preach restrictions against beastiality (implied though it may be)
-are in favor of strong lasting marraiges
-entertianed a department head that believed in Matthian priority
-are pro-life
-are Protestant by confession (i.e. not Roman Catholic)
Sue on 30 Nov 2009 at 1:26 am #
Michael has deleted one of my comments. But I also believe that certain things have been published by DTS that do its reputation a disservice – things that are not honest scholarship. I think there needs to be more accountability for the sake of the students.
Sue on 30 Nov 2009 at 1:33 am #
Michael you hit very close to home. Somewhere on the DTS website, I found these wedding vows,
Male: “Always will I perform my headship over you even as Christ does over me, knowing that His Lordship is one of the holiest desires for my life.”
Female: “loving you, obeying you, caring for you and ever seeking to please you.”
Sounds like a man and a golden retriever. Unlike a dog, however, a woman needs a long period of rehab.
IMO, this kind of thing should be sequestered onto some other website, where it won’t attract too much attention. I personally think that the vow of obedience is a form of bestiality.
Sue on 30 Nov 2009 at 1:35 am #
Okay. I have displayed my ignorance. Is Bible.org a DTS site? Perhaps not. Sorry bout that.
C Michael Patton on 30 Nov 2009 at 1:37 am #
CD-Host
Are you comparing the epistemic certianty about beliefs concerning the authorship of the NT books to mathatical conclusions?
If so, when were such demonstratably certian conclusions reached and by whom? Was it the German scholarship of the 19th century that finalized it, or did it conclude at the time of Bultman or maybe that of Pagels? Which quest for the historic Jesus drew such definitive lines and why wasn’t Bock, Wallace, Wright, Baucham, Evans, and Blomberg told?
I know what you are saying, but overstatements such as these do not do anything but demonstrate the bias that is out there. More importantly it illustrates the problem that most liberals are not really that liberal.
However, I must back off on this some as I don’t know you and therefore don’t know if you comment qualify to demonstrate what is being said. Hope that makes sense.
TAVW on 30 Nov 2009 at 1:46 am #
Thanks, Lisa Robinson. Push away. I matriculated in 2001 and graduated in both 2004 and 2006. According to my transcripts here, I took 67 courses from at least 30 different professors, numbers which, not to put too fine a point on it, I would like to think afford my above comments a certain small measure of weight.
Regarding your comments alleging my inaccuracy in terms of whether or not DTS offers an education in opposing viewpoints (“…a sterile learning environment exclusive of other points of view,” as you put it). Aside from my actually having not painted that picture, let me offer a few anecdotes that gesture towards what I am after. For instance, I recall taking an upper level OT course in archaeology where I watched with excruciating discomfort as our professor tap-danced ever so carefully (perhaps “with an experientially derived fearful paranoia” is the better description) around the possibilities and theological implications of Genesis 1-11’s falling into a genre akin to cosmonogic myth. Presumably, in so doing he could foresee the consequences of implying such things at an evangelical seminary in a way Pete Enns (God love him) could not, leading me to ask, “What are university programs supposed to make of such tap-dancing and/or what happened to Dr. Enns?” This professor was quite candid with me behind closed doors, by the way, about what he feared might happen if he forthrightly suggested a reading of the OT that challenged “scientific creationism”. Yet, whatever it is about DTS that fosters such palpable timidity and educational anxiety is something for which I think university admissions committees are rightly uneasy.
Further, as hinted in my initial post, I know of one professor whose approach to pedagogy in an eschatology class was simply what you suggest already pervasively takes place at DTS, namely, to teach the available options or range of views as such. But precisely because this professor focused on teaching the options as such (even though their scope was still circumscribed by generally conservative evangelical theologies) he was essentially forced to resign from the school for generating too many students unsettled about a dispensationalist eschatology. In short, his ability to sign the dispensationalist doctrinal statement required of all professors was called into question given the openness with which he taught the doctrinal alternatives and he was excised from the faculty. So while you are correct that students are often “made aware” of differing theological and doctrinal positions in certain classes, there is something indicated by this particular professor’s experience that hints that the manner in which this awareness is permitted or generated needs further investigation before its simple presence is thought sufficient to render unfounded the bias against which Dr. Wallace complains. […]
TAVW on 30 Nov 2009 at 1:46 am #
[…] Re: the philosophy course issue, I took the required philosophy course (ST620) for academic track ThM students but, tellingly, it was offered only as a distance learning class and, at any rate, is a far cry from meeting the serious academic need for something like a course in philosophical theology qua theology or a required class in theological ethics. If the curriculum has changed in the last 3 years, I am unaware of it.
Lastly, though Dr. Hoehner’s approach to criticism was far, far better than most, I once wrote a paper for him wherein I denied the Petrine authorship of 2 Peter and was subsequently told that I was only one of two students he’d ever had at DTS who took such a position. Yet, given his extended tenure there, that only two of us could arrive at such a conclusion is certainly indicative of something persistent and unusual worthy of consideration.
So, no, I haven’t at all said that DTS maintains a “sterile learning environment exclusive of other points of view”. But my prolonged and varied experiences there, as indicated by the examples above, have taught me that there is a way of exposing students to differing views that validates university prejudice against evangelical seminaries and one which might serve to undercut it. By and large, my time at DTS subsisted almost exclusively in the former modality. And I’m not sure that simply having a theologically diversified library resolves that problem.
Again, I fear I am coming across with greater harness about DTS than I intend. My persistence here is only to encourage us to examine what about university prejudice against evangelical seminaries might be on the mark.
C Michael Patton on 30 Nov 2009 at 1:58 am #
TAVW,
There is much of that I would have to agree with. Although I come down on the conservative side on most of these issues, I did find that when I graduated in 2001 there was still an obscurantist mentality that dictated the theology courses. I learned most of my critical approach, even to theology, from the NT dept and, ironically, the preaching dept.
However, I simply don’t know of any evangelical or liberal school that is non-obscurantist when it comes to theology. I do wish that the theological studies was more intentional about forcing the students to challenge their presuppositions, even if the school held to a particular confession. But I can only speak from 2001.
(However, I would never, never, never even allow anyone to entertain a egalitarian point of view and expect to graduate!)
OK, last part was a joke.
Teach the options, reveal your persuasion, and let the evidence do battle for your mind. I think we should be confident enough in our God to carry ourselves in such a manner.
Daniel B. Wallace on 30 Nov 2009 at 3:01 am #
Someone—about 50 comments ago!—wondered how I would define an HC approach to the NT vs. a historical-grammatical approach (HG). He also wondered if HC was against divine authorship of the Bible and thus whether I could in good conscience sign the DTS doctrinal statement that affirms such.
Essentially, HC and HG are addressing two different things; they are not incompatible, just different. One deals with hermeneutics, the other with history. HG is applied across the board to all books of the NT, while HC focuses most of its attention on the Gospels and Acts.
HC deals with issues such as source criticism (especially the literary interdependence between the Synoptic Gospels), form criticism (the various pericopae in the Gospels seem to have come from detached oral traditions because they are grouped in the Gospels differently and because they all follow certain loosely-defined forms), redaction criticism (what each evangelist does with the material that he is working with, how he shapes his Gospel), narrative criticism, etc.
HC also deals with whether Jesus said and did what the Gospels affirm. Here the criteria of authenticity are used. For example, the criterion of embarrassment says that if there are things in the Gospels that could prove embarrassing to the early Christian communities, then that is an argument for authenticity. The criterion of dissimilarity says if Jesus said something that is different from the Judaism of his day or the early Christianity that followed, this is an argument for authenticity.
The difference between liberal and conservative applications of HC lies in the presuppositions involved. The Jesus Seminar, for example, explicitly denied the possibility of genuine prophecy. This put them in an awkward position of denying any authenticity to the Olivet Discourse—even though it satisfied the criterion of dissimilarity in that Jesus spoke of himself as the Son of Man. Neither the Judaism of his day nor the early Christian community envisioned the Messiah in such terms. C. F. D. Moule, by no means as conservative scholar, argued in New Testament Studies that every genre in the Gospels in which “Son of Man” appeared should be regarded as authentic. But if prophecy is already ruled out, then the criterion cannot be applied consistently.
The criterion of embarrassment has shown, on a purely historical level, that John baptized Jesus. This is because John’s baptism was a baptism for repentance. Mark just says that John baptized Jesus; Matthew adds that Jesus was not in need of repentance. But the criterion of embarrassment has also been used to argue that because women were the first to see the resurrected Jesus, he really was raised from the dead since the testimony of women was not respected in Jewish courts. Why on earth would the evangelists make this up if they were trying to win converts? But someone who presupposes that resurrection is impossible will simply deny this criterion…
TAVW on 30 Nov 2009 at 10:05 am #
Thanks, C. Michael Patton (especially for the much needed humor). I admit being somewhat curious about what constitutes “obscurantist” in your mind, though I suspect we’d likely agree in large measure. That you wonder if any US theology program avoids obscurantism, however, makes me curious as to whether or not you mean something to the effect that if a theology program isn’t rooted in student’s/professors’ ability to derive their theological positions primarily (or even foundationally) from extended exegesis of the canon in the original languages then theological/doctrinal obscurantism is the necessary result. If so, I would submit that such an opinion is one deeply reflective of the kind of education DTS provides it’s students and illustrates part of what I find frustrating about DTS. For the idea that primary-language exegesis is the only valid starting point for legitimate theologizing (lest assumption-based obscurantism is all one has available) is likewise a theological presupposition into which we were indoctrinated at DTS that never itself received critical evaluation or justification. This is not to suggest that one must always be scrutinizing and challenging one’s theological approach in pursuit of methodological perfection before one can competently begin the theological task, but rather is to say that such self-criticism should receive extended attention at some point in the curriculum; yet I never recall it ever having done so at DTS in a way that really called “observation, interpretation, application” to account for itself historically, philosophically, or theologically. I’m not sure most, or hardly any, DTS ThM grads could give a genealogical accounting or historically, philosophically, and theologically self-aware apologetic for that methodological assumption. I contrast this (alleged) reality with the curriculum at Duke wherein students are not only taught a theological method and its resulting theological content but are also trained so as to be able to give an accounting for why, how, and wherefore that particular method was proffered. This is a sidebar to your post, I suppose, but I’m still trying to make sure that my specific gripes are sufficiently clear here. Does the above square with your experience at DTS, as well? Thanks again for your engagement.
#John1453 on 30 Nov 2009 at 11:01 am #
I went to an accredited school, with professor’s that had PhD’s, that offered BAs and MAs and Ddivs. However, it was a given (understood by faculty and students, and given as advice) that any one who wanted to go on to a PhD and an academic career would not do their Master’s work at that institution. Anyone that did (and a few of my former classmates are now profs at secular universities in fields related to the Bible) went off to secular schools for their further education. We knew that our faith would be challenged, but we knew it was the only way to gain the wider exposure, the complete academic freedom, and the challenges necessary to be good scholars who were readily recognized as good.
Which is fair. Conservative schools have to decide what they want to be and I’m not sure it is possible for an institution to be distinctively evangelical in the long run and not have issues with acceptance academically of its graduates or acceptance with funders (students, parents, churches) for the wider mass of students who go their for something else. My school did not require the signing of any statement of belief, and were I a prof at any secular university I would immediately look askance at anyone who came from a school that did.
Is the academic respectibility track one that DTS wants to go down? Is it fully compatible with what it has to be for the greater majority of students? I don’t know a lot about DTS except that I once had a systematic theology prof from there, whom none of the academically gifted students “respected” academically (i.e., in a scholarly manner because of his dispensationalist views; He was a very nice person though, and well liked).
Fascinating discussion.
regards,
#John
Lisa Robinson on 30 Nov 2009 at 11:15 am #
TAVW, I’d be interested to know what resources you use for theological methods that you have found particularly inciteful. I’m always on the look out for such material. Thanks.
Lisa Robinson on 30 Nov 2009 at 11:21 am #
Agggh, I mean insightful. I always mispel that. It must be some kind of Freudian slip
Susan on 30 Nov 2009 at 12:10 pm #
And do you always misspell ‘mispel’? :-/
Just wondering….
Susan on 30 Nov 2009 at 1:20 pm #
Heidi, you asked me who I would consider to be the top NT scholars…about 100 comments ago, and I almost forgot to answer you:
N. T. Wright, Craig Evans, Darrell Bock, Larry Hurtado, Jon Dominic Crossan, Bart Ehrman, Richard Bauckham, D. A. Carson, E. P. Sanders, R. B. Hays, James Charlesworth, James Dunn…
Dan is more specifically a top NT Greek grammarian….but personally I would squeeze him into the above list.
Michael, what do you say?? Let’s take a poll……rank Dan among scholars
!!
Michael T on 30 Nov 2009 at 2:02 pm #
I’m just curious as to how students from a institution like Fuller Theological fair when it comes to getting into Ph.D programs at Yale, Harvard, etc. compared to DTS.
Luke on 30 Nov 2009 at 2:40 pm #
That’s a good question Michael. I’d be interested in the same thing. Just thinking aloud, I would imagine it would be much easier and less stressful for Fuller students to get into the respected, mainline institutions such as Yale, Duke, Harvard, etc. for a few reasons.
-Fuller is more progressive theologically and there seems to be more openness of thought. They have professors there that go beyond open theism and those who are Calvinistic. It was birthed, I believe, in the neo-evangelical movement along with Denver seminary around the 60s in reaction to the fundamentalists. Because of this, it is, I imagine, probably the most respected evangelical seminary among liberals.
-I don’t believe the students there have to sign onto to any “doctrinal statement” in order to attend. This is not the case with DTS, where students have to sign a statement of “7 essentials” which includes a few things that are borderline fundamentalist (depending on how you define those things). Liberals probably frown upon that. At Fuller, this probably puts less pressure on the students and allows them more freedom to “go where the evidence leads.”
-Fuller is and always has been against making inerrancy a cardinal doctrine that all of their professors have to believe. This doctrine is a distinctive of the borderline fundamentalists who normally define it very narrowly (e.g. John MacArthur) and to my knowledge is frowned upon by many in the academy who are not evangelical. Fuller has caught some flak for this from other evangelicals, but let’s be honest, the doctrine has just about run its course.
Having said these things, Fuller is still much lighter on languages than DTS. The typical caricature of the conservative vs. liberal institution is that the conservatives are much better on languages (grammar, syntax, etc.) and the liberals are much better on backgrounds (Greco-Roman, Intertestamental, etc.). At Fuller neither one seems to be a distinctive in my opinion after looking at their curriculum.
So I would imagine it is easier for a Fuller student, but the irony is that they are no better equipped, and arguably less equipped than (e.g.) a DTS student (of course, depending on the degree route one takes & electives they offer).
At the end of the day, seminary or divinity school is what you make it no matter where you go. DTS or Fuller may be weak in some areas (e.g. Historical criticism, backgrounds, etc.) but there are always electives offered and independent studies one can take with respected professors that can make up the difference. That’s just one more reason why PhD committees and scholars at the mainline institutions do not need to discriminate against students for the sheer fact that they got their masters degree at a “conservative” institution.
Just my two cents. I would like to see a Fuller student or someone with more knowledge chime in here. I speak from nothing more than mere speculation.
TAVW on 30 Nov 2009 at 2:43 pm #
No worries on the misspelling, Lisa. You may have noticed that I totally butchered “cosmogonic” above.
There are several resources that I think are helpful but I want to stress that what I’m really after here involves something much more to do with a general intellectual/attitudinal habit or overall approach to theology and theological method than anything else. Whatever texts I recommend, then, I don’t want them to obscure that larger matter. [As an aside, in many respects I suppose I'm not saying anything too far afield of what Mark Noll suggests in his "The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind" (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Press, 1994), a book worth perusing.]
At any rate, I think George A. Lindbeck’s seminal work “The Nature of Doctrine: Religion and Theology in a Postliberal Age” (Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 1984) is definitely worth checking out. Reinhard Hütter’s “Suffering Divine Things: Theology as Church Practice” (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Press, 2000) is also recommended as, apart from being remarkable in its own right, it is an excellent continuation and development of Lindbeck’s thesis (and, I must say, substantially better than Vanhoozer’s attempt at the same with his “canonical linguistic” approach; Vanhoozer does acknowledge Hütter’s text but in a manner that causes me to question whether or not he actually read it with any care, if at all). Also fantastic is Paul J. Griffiths’ newest work “Intellectual Appetite: A Theological Grammar” (Washington D.C.: Catholic University of America Press, 2009).* In addition, one could do worse than read Alasdair MacIntyre’s hugely important “Three Rival Versions of Moral Enquiry: Encyclopedia, Genealogy, and Tradition” (Notre Dame: University of Notre Dame Press, 1990) and “Whose Justice? Which Rationality?” (Notre Dame: University of Notre Dame Press, 1988). I can’t help but likewise recommend that the evangelical student read (in the following order) Nathan Hatch’s “The Democratization of American Christianity” (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1989), George Marsden’s “Fundamentalism and American Culture” (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2006), and Joel Carpenter’s “Revive Us Again: The Reawakening of American Fundamentalism” (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1997). It would also be worth the effort to investigate Nancey Murphy’s “Beyond Liberalism and Fundamentalism: How Modern and Postmodern Philosophy Set the Theological Agenda” (Harrisburg: Trinity Press International, 1996). There are several, several other books which I might recommend but I fear I’ve potentially overwhelmed you as it is. [...]
TAVW on 30 Nov 2009 at 2:43 pm #
[...] To be clear, though, I don’t want any potential quibbling over the particular texts I’ve listed to overshadow the bigger point I’m making: there are what we might call significant “meta-theological” issues involved in DTS’s ThM curriculum such that the failure of the same to acknowledge and address said issues places DTS students in the theologically crippling position of lacking any significant awareness of the theological, historical, and philosophical contingencies into and by which they are being shaped in their courses. And, I would submit that it is both many of those contingencies and their lack of being acknowledged as such which partially legitimates the prejudice many of us experience from doctoral admissions committees in academia.
*To be forthright about my own biases, I should point out that Hütter and Griffiths were both professors of mine at Duke. Still, this doesn’t mean their texts I’ve mentioned above aren’t excellent and worthy of consideration.
Michael T on 30 Nov 2009 at 3:57 pm #
Luke,
Thanks for the response. I believe you are correct that Fuller students do not have to sign anything, however I do believe that the faculty have at least a basic statement of faith they have to assent to which may not go so far as to require belief in inerrancy, but certainly affirms the inspiration of Scripture. It can be found here.
http://www.fuller.edu/about-fuller/mission-and-history/statement-of-faith.aspx
The reason I asked about Fuller was some of the exact things you pointed out. Among institutions which can be considered to be at least marginally Evangelical (according to how many would define Evangelical, not necessarily the historical definition) I think Fuller would be among those with the most academic freedom and highest degree of acceptance for divergent viewpoints.
Is Denver similar? I don’t know much about them whereas I had a few friends from undergrad go to Fuller. A Th.M might be somewhere on my list of degrees to get.
RobK on 30 Nov 2009 at 4:52 pm #
Someone in a previous comment asked my assessment of why the landscape is as it is with regard to bias against conservative.
While I’m sure there are many contributing factors, some more to the forefront than others, I think the key factor in all this is the attitude that those who hold to any sort of faith or confession cannot legitimately do sound critical scholarship.
Recently, in a blog, April Deconick writes, “Confessional scholarship is willing to compromise and apologize in order to keep ‘history’ aligned with the faith tradition. It is willing to understand theology as history and write about knowledge in these terms.” (full blog-post at: http://forbiddengospels.blogspot.com/2009/09/never-ending-confusion-about.html ). Granted, some who I would consider legitimate critical scholars have voiced their disagreement (e.g. Mark Goodacre responds here: http://ntweblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/confessional-vs-historical-critical.html ), however, it doesn’t take long for one to be in the SBL types of environment to realize the validity of this bias.
Therefore, can this change? In some respects, no. To be confessional by its very nature will always raise flags for critical scholars. However, at the same time, I think the language department of DTS is beginning to show (and has shown at least for the last ten years) that one can honestly wrestle with the data regardless of its conclusions and as Wallace is always found saying, ‘pursuing the truth at all costs.’ Hopefully with confessional scholars following such a model, more and more of the critical scholars will have a perspective as say a Mark Goodacre (see blog-post link above) who do not so easily discriminate against the validity of the scholarship of those holding to any sort of confession. And I do see this happening even now, but to see progress is not enough as it is never enough in any form of discrimination, e.g. racial, gender, etc.
#John1453 on 30 Nov 2009 at 5:01 pm #
Unless evangelical or conservative schools free their students and professors to pursue the truth wherever it may lead, I think that the secular universities are entirely fair in discounting students who come from those institutions, at least initially. Having any kind of theological statement to sign interferes with being known for pursuit of truth and leads to stereotyping. The stereotyping does serve a useful service, however, for the greater number that goes to such schools for education or who employ graduates. It’s a kind of branding, “if X went to that school they are likely inerrantist and worth interviewing for the Y ministry job”. The branding is not so good for those that want an academic career. But as I said earlier, I’m not sure why anyone who wants an academic career would want to go to a conservative institution for anything beyond an under graduate degree.
regards,
#John
C Michael Patton on 30 Nov 2009 at 5:19 pm #
John, I do agree to a degree,
However….how “free” do you make it. I mean what assumptions can you expect to be brought to the table of a institutions that teaches Christian education? Is there a certain theory on truth, propositions, and ontology that you can expect? If so, then is it truly “free.”
Your requirement to “pursue truth” is philosophically loaded, is it not?
Then there are Christian presumptions at a Christian school. Even Duke and Harvard claim to be preparing students for ministry and talk about God’s “calling.” That is loaded with quite a bit.
In the end, it simply depends on what the particular school is attempting to accomplish and produce. There is not one way to “do” education, even for a “Christian” school producing ministers of the Gospel.
I don’t fault DTS or Trinity or Reformed Theological Seminary for narrowing the options in their respective fashion. Well, I don’t fault them for narrowing SOME of the options.
What I am saying is that there can always be a cry that the institution is not “free” or, in a proper sense, “liberal” enough and therefore disqualified.
In the end, I think that methodology is the most important prerequisite. The way people go about their inquiry must be justified and shaped first. I think I can safely say that all institutions can encourage such even if their curriculum cannot sustain their broader philosophical aspirations.
Alan on 30 Nov 2009 at 5:47 pm #
Sadly, I have seen many Evangelicals think exactly the same thoughts about Dallas Seminary.
CD-Host on 30 Nov 2009 at 6:01 pm #
C Michael –
No what I’m doing is saying that it is not a requirement of liberalism to keep settled issues open. The original assertion was that it was illiberal to simply treat an issue as resolved.
If so, when were such demonstratably certian conclusions reached and by whom? Was it the German scholarship of the 19th century that finalized it, or did it conclude at the time of Bultman or maybe that of Pagels? Which quest for the historic Jesus drew such definitive lines and why wasn’t Bock, Wallace, Wright, Baucham, Evans, and Blomberg told?
As for what was the defining moment in liberal scholarship about the origins of Jesus; I’d say 1905 Geschichte der Leben-Jesu-Forschung (The Quest of the Historical Jesus, Albert Schweitzer) that Christianity evolved with little or no input from whatever events did or didn’t happen in Palestine in the 30’s. These events if they left traces left far fainter ones than the earlier and later events that shaped Christianity. That after over 100 years (at the time) of applying the historical critical methods and examining the evidence there simply was not enough evidence to reconstruct or know much of the historical Jesus. “Jesus taught X” is shorthand for “Writer A presents idea B coming from his Jesus character”.
I certainly don’t believe that something like the 2nd century authorship of Timothy is resolved in the same way 2+2=4 is. But I certainly also don’t think this is a wide open question, Eusebius’ historical presentation is thoroughly discredited.
And people like Bock have been told. My critique of the problem of DTS started by examining Bock’s books on precisely this question and commenting how thoroughly he ducked the scholarship. I noticed you skipped that point so let me repeat. Is there any form of scholarship in which deliberately misrepresenting opposing views is acceptable?
However, I must back off on this some as I don’t know you and therefore don’t know if you comment qualify to demonstrate what is being said. Hope that makes sense.
I’ve haven’t been an academic in a decade. When I was one I was confronted with students with inappropriate backgrounds, analogous to the situation Wallace describes, but not in any way directly linked. Students with questionable backgrounds were looked at more closely. A student with a BS/MS in engineering rather than say a physics or mathematics BA/BS would need to be checked carefully before being admitted to a doctorate program in applied math, and thoroughly interviewed before being admitted to a doctorate program in pure math. Even though an engineering student might have as many math classes as a physics student, that might not be the right ones, or taught the right way and he (as well as his professors) probably weren’t…
Rev. Bryan Johnson on 30 Nov 2009 at 6:15 pm #
Wow, what a great thread! I see that at times some of our friends are drifting from the subject. Francis Schaeffer put it best when he said that we must be aware of the presuppositions of the those in Liberal and Conservative scholarship. Some call it a “worldview” but that may be to broad. For those who have had the historical-critical view thrust in their faces (like myself), we’ve had to step back and find where this view originates. Let’s face it, most Evangelicals “automatically” accept the supernatural and do not question the basic teachings they receive from their schools and institutions.
Now look at Liberal scholarship. Many are second, third, or forth generation critics who scoff at any idea of the supernatural and see traditionalists and conservatives as misguided (or worse, ignorant). The majority of them bought into the Documentary Hypothesis, treat Genesis 1-11 as “myth,” reject Mosaic authorship of any of the OT, and reject the traditional authorship of the Gospels. They embrace the “Historical Jesus” and many are fans of the Jesus Seminar. Is there any doubt as to why we are discussing this topic with such zeal!
Some of you (like myself) are studying at Liberal Universities and are very frustrated. Textual criticism, source criticism, form criticism, redaction criticism, narrative criticism, social-science criticism, Evangelical criticism (just kidding), its all enough to drive a conservative scholar nuts! So what do we do about it?
Its called Apologetics. Its called debate. Its called logic. We must engage the Liberal with friendly, reasonable arguments. Some will dismiss you like a Naturalist snubs a Intelligent Design/Creationist. But others will listen intently. I’ve had a number of students come up to me after class and compliment me on my views and arguments. They say something like, “I don’t belive everything you said, but I did like…” I feel that this is all need to do. I can’t sit still and be quiet and neither should you.
To all my friends at DTS, AGTS, Trinity, and all the others, keep the faith-keep pushing on. For those at the more “liberal” schools, be prepared and stay sharp.
Lastly, why would I spend so much time reading this thread and studying this subject? Liberal/Conservative scholarship and interpretation AFFECTS the CHURCH! As Schaeffer pointed out a number of years ago, what is believed at the Scholarly level eventually filters down into schools, pulpit, and finally the pew. Do we really want surrender our schools and congregations to the presuppositions found in liberal scholarship? Doesn’t the European Church cause us to cringe?!!
Just some more to think about.
God Bless.
Rev. J
Daniel B. Wallace on 30 Nov 2009 at 8:58 pm #
There is a thread of comments within this thread that keeps cropping up: in the university setting, presuppositions, beliefs, confessions have no place. Free inquiry without constraints is all that is aimed for. Concomitant with this is the notion that a confessional school must be looked at suspiciously because all such confessions have a poor basis.
What I have been trying to argue is that, in many respects, the situation is just the opposite. Years ago, the Wittenburg Door (yes, that’s the right spelling for this magazine) had a little essay in which it spoke about the wonderful “freedom” of the mainline divinity schools–e.g., Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, etc. It was an ironic piece, since it noted that there is a Kethiv-Qere at these schools too. Several things, never in print, were taboo. One was getting wine from California because of the oppression of the grape pickers. As I said, this was years ago.
Bring it to more recent times, and here’s the testimony I have received from many who have gone to mainline schools: on certain topics, there is such an oppressive spirit for free inquiry that they never get discussed, or at least openly discussed. The role of women in the church, authorship of various books of the Bible, whether John has anything of historical value, anything beyond a bare-bones eschatology, the possibility of systematic theology, biblical authority in relation at least to infallibility (i.e., the belief that the Bible is true in what it teaches with respect to faith and practice), etc.
In other words, one major difference between conservative schools and liberal schools is this: although both kinds of schools often have their beliefs solidly in place, one school is not afraid to make those beliefs public. Hence, armed with that knowledge, there have been many on this blog post who have harshly criticized confessional schools, not realizing that the liberal counterparts are, in some respects, just as restrictive but less honest.
Daniel B. Wallace on 30 Nov 2009 at 9:14 pm #
I would like to note one other thing: Fuller Seminary had its roots in the emerging evangelicalism of the 1940s, but Charles Fuller founded the school on inerrancy. This was part of their doctrinal statement for a long time. Harold Lindsell was actually on the faculty there—a man who has been likened, and not unjustly, to the famous Communist-hunter, Senator McCarthy. Lindsell could smell a non-inerrantist fifty miles away!
Fuller’s decisive change happened in the late 70s when a faculty member not only disagreed with inerrancy, but with infallibility, too, in one of his publications. Now, I agree with Luke that inerrancy is by no means a sine qua non of evangelicalism, even though it is largely associated with American evangelicalism as such. (Yet even here, how one defines inerrancy has hardly been discussed. Each of us assumes that we know what it means, yet Millard Erickson gives six different definitions, I believe.)
Back to the Fuller faculty member. When the board met to discuss the matter, the professor’s job was saved by one vote. Since then, Fuller has continued to not require infallibility for its faculty.
Normally, one sine qua non of evangelicalism is infallibility. This means that Fuller is one step outside of the normal definition of ‘evangelical.’ And that’s one of the reasons why its students have a far easier time getting into American mainline schools than DTS students do.
But again, as I pointed out earlier, schools in the UK don’t have the same dividing lines as we do in the States, largely because the Fundamentalist-Modernist controversy was far more prominent on our side of the pond. If you can defend your views, then you are accepted in the academy there—even if you’re from Dallas Seminary (and a very large portion of PhD students in religious studies are). That’s the kind of openness and liberal-mindedness that I claimed in the original blog post is not true in the States.
Bryan on 30 Nov 2009 at 9:53 pm #
Dr. Wallace,
Your comments are spot on, but I would not limit them to DTS. I graduated from Moody for my undergrad; and when rejected from Yale Divinity School, I was told that the sole reason was because my eduction was too narrow, and I needed to go to a school with a broader theological spectrum.
Again, when I graduated from Trinity with an M.A., and while studying for a ThM at Westminster, I drove five and half hours to interview with the head of the dept. of Near Eastern Studies at Harvard, where I was told by the chair that I hadn’t studied historical criticism enough. He, of course, had not looked at my transcript, knew nothing of my courses, and apparently was completely unaware that I had studied to a great degree and believed in it. I, of course, wasted time and money bothering to even apply.
I’ve since given up on my quest for three PhDs as when I first started my education, as one must have a degree from a secular institution these days to publish and work within most seminaries and colleges. It has been a frustrating endeavor.
To the person who argued before about language, I had Hebrew, Greek, Ugaritic, Akkadian, Middle Egyptian, Aramaic, Sumerian, Latin and German under my belt, and it was meaningless to those Profs who simply saw me as a fundamentalist simply because I had gone to evangelical schools. BTW, I remember having a conversation with Ray Westbrook before he died, where he lamented the fact that most of his students from “secular” schools couldn’t get their French and German down, and were woefully under-educated to be in the degree program at Hopkins. Unfortunately, that does not hinder them from choosing the prestige of the university over the broader academics of the more astute evangelical schools.
Bryan on 30 Nov 2009 at 10:04 pm #
“the governing assumption is that there are no gods, demons, angels, avatars, nature spirits or ancestral ghosts these mythical entities have a literature which is the subject of study and that is it.”
Yep, it sure is. The governing ASSUMPTION/presupposition based in ultimate beliefs (i.e., faith). This is a perfect example of liberal bias. Evangelicals have biases that don’t fit liberal biases. Therefore, the evangelicals practices pseudo-science because he doesn’t have the same faith that the liberal has.
We live in the postmodern age, People. Let’s drop the fantasy of objectivism. I would just be happy to study the physical aspects of the Scripture at a secular university without getting into what was “true” according to the secular academy. We don’t need to discuss metaphysic reality in the secular classroom if we’re discussing the meaning of a Hebrew term or the theology of a particular source anyway.
mbaker on 30 Nov 2009 at 10:09 pm #
Interesting that we all think our opinions of the truth are going to change the truth itself. We may look good among our peers for being liberal, or embracing whatever the popular theory is at the time. However, the real question we need to ask ourselves individually ,(since that is how we will be judged by Christ in the long run) is how closely do our opinions really match us with His. I think a lot of it boils downs to that, period.
Dale on 30 Nov 2009 at 10:18 pm #
If evangelical/fundamentalist views are accepted in the UK as defensible ideas (I’m taking Dan’s word on this as I have no first hand knowledge myself) then this is, to me, a major indictment of the state of scholarship in either the US or the UK.
Either these views are legitimately defensible or they aren’t. If they are not legitimately defensible then one has to question the rigorousness of scholarship in the UK. If they are defensible then one must question the openness of scholarship in the US.
I don’t see how those who argue that fundamental/evangelical views are unworthy of consideration could at the same time accept scholars from the UK (even liberal scholars who rebuke those views.) The scholars from the UK would have been trained in a system that is, by its very openness, not as high a quality, as the US system.
Somehow I doubt that a highly-learned doctoral student from, I don’t know, Oxford, seeking a position in a US university or college would be treated as inferior to a similar level student from Harvard or Princeton. Unless of course that Oxford trained student voiced evangelical or fundamentalist views that the Harvard student does not. Maybe I’m wrong about this. I suspect I’m not.
Heidi L. Nordberg on 30 Nov 2009 at 10:19 pm #
I think it’s fascinating that anyone would harbor the suspicion that working toward being loving, compassionate and liberal would ever garner admiration from peers. That’s not been my experience.
I agree that the question is how closely our thoughts and behavior match us with his truth. And I guess I would have to draw on biblical tradition and world religion and philosophy to remind us all that truth is not a possession of fallen humanity, but something that we point toward and work toward and follow as a path that is a lifelong journey, no matter how confident we may feel about it. Learning to ask better questions takes one further, sometimes, than parading with answers – especially when those answers dehumanize others.
Vinny on 30 Nov 2009 at 11:01 pm #
In a secular context just the opposite should occur: the governing assumption is that there are no gods, demons, angels, avatars, nature spirits or ancestral ghosts these mythical entities have a literature which is the subject of study and that is it.
While I agree with much of what CD-Host has to say, I do not think that this is an accurate statement of the secular assumption. I think the governing assumption in the secular university is that scholarship addresses itself to “objective” reality with one of the senses of “objective” being “perceptible by all observers.” Scholarship must be based on evidence that is available to all. The problem with the evangelical schools is their insistence upon interpreting objective evidence in light of revealed truth that is only available to those who have had a particular subjective religious experience. It is not an anti-supernatural assumption that precludes the consideration of gods, demons, angels, etc. It is the fact that their existence cannot be ascertained by objective methodologies.
Daniel B. Wallace on 01 Dec 2009 at 12:35 am #
Vinny, on what basis can you say that scholarship must limit itself to reality that is perceptible to all observers? That is not true in law, literature, history, etc. Unless science—and only a particular kind of science—is taught in universities, this definition is so narrow as to rule out most of reality as we now know it.
On the other side of the coin, one of the problems of modern western scholarship is that it is both unbelievably arrogant and as politically incorrect as it can be. Boyd and Eddy show this in their book, The Jesus Legend. They demonstrate that the ancient worldview, and much of the non-western modern worldview, is radically different from the modern western worldview, and they question why it is that we only allow our definitions of reality to stand. Karl Popper, the philosopher-scientist, argued that even science can only demonstrate what is, not what is not. Hence, the method that many scholars today use of denying the possibility of something because they haven’t witnessed it is actually bad science.
Consequently, when an educational institute virtually outlaws certain positions—positions that are even held by respected scholars but are outside the guild—that institute demonstrates, once again, that it is not truly liberal.
It is interesting that the chaplain of Harvard Divinity School gave a message a couple of years ago regarding the fact that Harvard was going to hire an evangelical professor. His message was essentially, “Do not fear! This will not destroy Harvard.” That this message needed to be given shows how deep the divide is between evangelicals and liberals in America.
#John1453 on 01 Dec 2009 at 12:44 am #
Re comment #150 “Your requirement to “pursue truth” is philosophically loaded, is it not?” and comment 156 re frustration.
I agree that “pursue truth” is philosophically loaded, and I bear no illusions that a secular university is more likely to arrive at truth, or has a better methodology or philosophy of truth, than a “confessional” one. I believe that students from evangelical schools and ones with confessions that must be signed produce students that are frequently better than ones from secular students, but that to me does not justify accepting the secular students on equal terms. Each side of the divide has different reasons for being, different philosophies of education and learning, different “culture”, and different expectations. Secular institutions are therefore within their rights to reject students sight unseen merely because they come from a different kind of institutional background. The US schools may miss out on great students, but it doesn’t seem illogical to me..
The UK schools evolved differently over the years and so are being consistent with their own particular history. Should US schools become more open to evangelical scholars? Yes if they want to get the best students, but I don’t think it’s necessary from their perspective. It would certainly be better from a financial perspective for evangelical schools because they could retain students longer in their programs and advertise as being acceptable preparatory schools for academic vocation pursuit.
However, and it seems that I am one of the minority, but I just always accepted that the two (secular, Christian) were / are different animals. I was only 20 at the time I was making my choices, but even then I wasn’t so naive or deluded as to believe that I could pursue a PhD by attending a non-secular institution. It strikes me as quite odd that anyone would believe that they could. If I wanted a PhD from Harvard, I never would have bothered with a Masters from a Christian institution, unless I was planning on doing two. Even 25 years ago or so I checked into which secular institutions accepted which credits and degrees from which Christian ones. It was pretty evident to me that (a) Christian degrees wouldn’t cut it if I wanted a prestigious secular degree, and (b) anything beyond an undergrad at a Christian institution was not required for me personally to be secure in my faith before I went off to a godless school.
So as a student, I didn’t and would not now be concerned over this divide. I would just go the route (secular v. Christian institutions) that would result in the degrees and career I want. One can’t go the evangelical school route, but so what? The secular route is available (and has more $ too).
I can, however, certainly see the concerns of profs (e.g. Wallace). I would much prefer better academic respect and legitimacy and would be pushing to get my research, my institution, and my students to have better recognition and…
TAVW on 01 Dec 2009 at 1:10 am #
For the record, I thought it might be helpful to recommend Stanley Hauerwas’ “The State of the University: Academic Knowledges and the Knowledge of God” (Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2007) as a useful resource for thinking through the kinds of issues we’ve been circling around here. In fact, if the role of God and/or theology in the modern “secular” university is of interest to you at all, Stanley’s is a book you really can’t miss.
Also, to supplement Dr. Wallace’s post on Fuller, George Marsden’s “Reforming Fundamentalism: Fuller Seminary and the New Evangelicalism” (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans, 1987) and Rudolph Nelson’s “The Making and Unmaking of an Evangelical Mind: The Case of Edward Carnell” (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1987) provide nice historical forays, the former being more general in scope than the latter.
Sue on 01 Dec 2009 at 1:30 am #
It seems then that it is not language preparation that is lacking. I do still have some slight reservation here, but it is minor. That is, I think that a broader classical and Hellenistic Greek may be a better preparation than studying NT Greek but that is still debatable.
However, Dan now mentions both inerrancy and the role of women as factors. Does this mean that dispensationalism is not really the problem. What is the key problem – inerrancy or gender politics? Which one seems like more of a block? Any thoughts?
Lisa Robinson on 01 Dec 2009 at 1:39 am #
Sue, Dr. Wallace did not mention anything about the roles of women. Only you are talking about the roles of women in a post where it is completely irrelevant. The topic is about how there is an inherent bias in liberal academic institutions towards students trained at conservative evangelical ones.
If the title were Frustrations from the Front: The Myth of Theological Conservatism then perhaps your topic may have a voice amongst like minded people. But it is not.
It would be nice if you would not taint what has been an extraordinarily interesting and insightful post with endless tirades about seemingly conservative injustices against women especially when it has absolutely no bearing to the topic.
Sue on 01 Dec 2009 at 2:11 am #
Lisa,
It has been a long thread. I did bring these issues up myself earlier. However, Dan echoed my thoughts rather closely in comment #154, writing,
“Bring it to more recent times, and here’s the testimony I have received from many who have gone to mainline schools: on certain topics, there is such an oppressive spirit for free inquiry that they never get discussed, or at least openly discussed. The role of women in the church, authorship of various books of the Bible, whether John has anything of historical value, anything beyond a bare-bones eschatology, the possibility of systematic theology, biblical authority in relation at least to infallibility (i.e., the belief that the Bible is true in what it teaches with respect to faith and practice), etc.”
The role of women heads up his list and the rest, more often than not, falls within the general area of inerrancy.
Lisa,
I am honestly curious. I attended courses in a local evangelical seminary and then was accepted into a ThM in a liberal college. I also found that there was a certain attitude or arrogance toward my mention of courses taken in the evangelical school.
Vinny on 01 Dec 2009 at 3:07 am #
Dr. Wallace,
I am not sure what your basis is for saying that something like history does not limit itself to reality that is perceptible to all observers. The coins, inscriptions, and writings that form the primary sources for the historian of ancient Rome can be perceived by all other historians of ancient Rome. None of them are allowed to rely on crystal balls or Tarot cards to determine the course of the Carthaginian wars. Doesn’t peer reviewed scholarship depend on other scholars being able to perceive the evidence upon which their peers have based their conclusions?
I don’t generally think that scholars should deny the possibility of something just because they haven’t witnessed it. That is why I disagreed with CD-Host’s characterization of the non-existence of demons and angels as an assumption of secular scholarship. I think that a scholar should be agnostic about that for which he have no evidence one way or the other. On the other hand, if we cannot conceive of any objective evidence that could establish a thing’s existence, there is little practical difference between agnosticism about its existence and affirmation of its non-existence.
I understand that the attitude of modern western scholarship towards revealed truths can seem like intolerance and arrogance for the Christians, Muslims, Mormons, Scientologists, and others who might embrace them. However, by excluding truths that are only accessible to groups who share a particular faith experience, modern western scholarship aspires to knowledge that can more truly be considered objective. I think that more is gained than lost.
Daniel B. Wallace on 01 Dec 2009 at 4:25 am #
Vinny, you make some excellent points which affords me the opportunity to clarify what I meant. Yes, all can observe coins and inscriptions. They are usually contemporary and thus provide good evidence. But they are not the same thing as observing the event itself. In historical investigation, we always have to rely on someone else’s testimony. If all we had were coins and inscriptions, and we jettisoned the rest because it was not as hard data, our knowledge of the ancient (and even modern) world would be a small fraction of what it is now. There has always been belief at the core of historical investigation.
You also lumped writings in with coins and inscriptions. But they belong to a different class. We don’t have the original documents of just about any literature from the ancient world. We have copies—copies that were usually made many centuries after the autographs were penned. Scholars have to sift through the copies to establish the most likely autographic text. Ehrman has gone so far as to say that he doesn’t trust ANY ancient literature since it all needs to be reconstructed. But he doesn’t actually apply this in what he writes.
To take but one example: In The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings, Ehrman quotes from Euripides, Galen, Josephus, Lucian the satirist, Marcus Aurelius, Philostratus, Plato, Plautus, Pliny the Younger, Plutarch, Suetonius, and Tacitus—to name a few. Yet all such sources have to be reconstructed from the surviving manuscripts—almost all of which were copied several hundred years later than the originals. But Ehrman quotes them without any caveat such as ‘the earliest MSS of Suetonius say,’ or ‘our best sources for Plutarch read this.’ No, he simply enlists these authors and their writings as though the extant documents are identical at those points with what the author wrote.
The irony here is that the New Testament fares far, far better than any other ancient Greco-Roman literature in terms of the date and number of its surviving copies. So, if you really want hard, objective historical evidence (by your definition), you’d better stick with the coins and inscriptions. Certainly they are helpful, but if that is to be our approach our grasp of Late Antiquity would be similar to what a four-year-old’s grasp of metaphysics is!
As for excluding those who share a faith experience, that’s not entirely what I was speaking about. The New Testament records what the enemies of Jesus thought of his miracles. They saw them. They never denied that they were miracles. They only denied the source of the miracles. This is what I am getting at: even those in the ancient world who did NOT share the same faith experience still had a similar worldview, a worldview that modern western scholarship has deemed naive and irrelevant and thus has rejected without a fair hearing.
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 4:52 am #
Vinny,
The common problem with this type of obliviousness to presuppositions and bias is that observable data, although evidence to all, does not interpret itself.
Now, if we are talking only about the identification and arrangement of data, metaphysical bias might play a more minor role; but since the academy does not stop there, I think it is safe to say that the metaphysical bias of the academy is not one of neutrality (something you seem to admit here as a default atheism which stems from a sort of practical agnosticism the American academy adopted due to its limitations on true science as merely empirical and the erroneous idea that human interpretation can be neutral if conducted correctly. Such empiricism works with the scientific method when building a rocket, but doesn’t cut the mustard too well when answering how one ought to study the Bible, whether merely through anthropological or theological intent.
A good example of why this attitude toward evangelicals is not merely due to biased interpretations (as all interpretations are biased) can be observed from my experience at UPenn. I took a course in Late Egyptian there, and as soon as they found out I also attended Westminster, it was pretty much over from there. The prof wanted to put me in as many awkward situations as possible, and the more secular students became incredibly hostile toward me. In fact, I had to drop out of the class because he would give all of his work assignments to his aide in the class, and because she didn’t like me being there, I either did not received when the class was going to meet, or what the assigned reading was to be for the next class, or she would email me 30 minutes before class, knowing that I lived an hour and a half away. Eventually, I just called it quits.
My point is that this isn’t just about a prof worrying about “correct” methodology. What was I going to do? Interpret Egyptian texts supernaturally? Let’s face it. Those who lean toward philosophic naturalism have ultimate beliefs that dictate that worldview and methodology of inquiry; and people don’t tend to like other people whose ultimate beliefs reject their ultimate beliefs, unless you are trained to be tolerant (as many evangelical scholars are).
CD-Host on 01 Dec 2009 at 5:18 am #
Good discussion all. A few miscellanies points in responding to today’s post. I’ll start with Vinny and get more broad.
I see no principled distinction from a perspective of scholarship between the statements:
X does not exist.
X does not induce publicly observable events.
This is essentially Russell’s teapot. The key criteria if whether the only admissible evidence is that which is publicly observable.
I think we agree here and are disagreeing on phrasing.
But there is another area of phrasing which I think is leading to confusion. In reading this thread I think a distinction needs to made between 3 not 2 major classes of scholarship:
1) Conservative / Traditional Christian
2) Liberal/Liberal Christian
3) Secular / Atheist
I think a lot of the readers are conflating the 2nd and 3rd category. People are passing freely between Harvard divinity school, and the Harvard classics department. There are substantial differences between the results of these different groups. Since people seem familiar with April DeConick:
1) Bock
2) Crossen
3) DeConick
The issue between 1 & 3 is essentially methodological, what I talked about in my earlier post. The issue between 1 & 2 is IMHO essentially religious. I did a summary of DeConick’s 8 rules of bible study which I’ll repeat here:
No apologetics. Study this history the way you would any other.
No miracles or supernatural events.
No heresy. We treat all ancient authors equally, not giving weight to the eventual winners.
Religions develop in religious communities they don’t fall out of the sky.
All sources have human authorship.
The sources were written by people in the midst of events, the authors don’t understand how events will turn out.
The authors are not neutral. They are writing apology and polemic and propaganda, and they need to be deconstructed as those.
Our sources are dependent on the human being: physiologically, psychologically, emotionally, socially.
I think anyone can see that liberal Christian scholarship no less than conservative Christian scholarship couldn’t affirm those 8 principles.
Daniel B. Wallace on 01 Dec 2009 at 5:18 am #
Bryan, that is a well-put yet sad commentary on modern American theological liberalism. It underscores what I have been saying in the original blog post. If we had scores of such first-person anecdotes posted here, perhaps—just perhaps—we might be able to open up the eyes of some of our liberal friends who seem to see us as a threat.
CD-Host on 01 Dec 2009 at 6:22 am #
Two policemen Ben and Sam are looking at a robbery scene:
Ben: This door is strong the perps must have had a crowbar to force it open. You can see the broken lock.
Sam: Well a poltergeist could have forced it open.
Ben: No look you can see the scratch marks from the wedge right here about 3 1/2 feet off the ground, which is completely consistent with where a 6′ man would use a crowbar.
Sam: You are assuming your crowbar theory. The scratches might from an entirely different event. I still see no evidence it wasn’t a poltergeist.
Ben: Well what kind of evidence could I possibly produce that it wasn’t a poltergeist?
Sam: A video of the crooks breaking the door.
Ben: Well there is no camera.
Sam: So I guess it must be a matter of open debate.
____
Yes, it is absolutely true that the issue of how to evaluate the evidence is dependent upon the relative frequency of a breaking and entering being performed by a poltergeist vs. normal human robbers. Still I’d say that Ben is doing is consistent with normal police work and what Sam is doing is likely to get him fired.
CD-Host on 01 Dec 2009 at 6:52 am #
Bryan –
That is a sad story and it never should have happened. If it was recent you would be doing everyone a favor by filing a grievance with the administration.
Vinny on 01 Dec 2009 at 10:34 am #
Dr. Wallace,
I appreciate the distinction between coins and writings when it comes to ancient history, however, even with the writings, all historians are on an equal footing with respect to their limitations. Every historian must temper the certainty of any conclusion he draws in consideration of the possibility hat some scribe didn’t like the way that his political patrons had been portrayed by Suetonius and altered the offending passages. No historian can claim a reason for believing any passage to be uncorrupted that is not equally perceptible to all historians.
As for scholars not referring to the “earliest surviving manuscript of Plato,” I think the issue is generally too trivial to mention. I think any classicist worth his salt would acknowledge the possibility that parts of the body of work that is attributed to Plato may not actually have been written by him. One of Plato’s students may have written one of the dialogues. Some anonymous philosopher living fifty years later may have used Plato’s name in order to get his own work. Some of Plato’s original writings could have been extensively edited and revised by later philosophers. The surviving record does not enable us to eliminate any of these possibilities.
By and large, however, nothing any scholar has to say about Plato is altered by these possibilities. The influence of Plato’s dialogues on western thought is not dependent on each and every one of them being written by the person we think of as the historical Plato. In a similar vein, the significance of Shakespeare’s plays in English literature is not lessened by the possibility that some of them may have written by Francis Bacon rather than the Bard of Avon. It is little more than an interesting academic tidbit for most purposes.
The New Testament, on the other hand, presents a completely different situation. Certain Christians maintain that certain writings are uniquely authoritative—e.g., inspired, inerrant, or infallible—because they were written by certain specific individuals who had a special access to divine guidance. From this perspective, it matters whether the specific words in the writing we know as Galatians are actually the specific words that Paul personally wrote. Their significance is directly dependent upon being written by someone with a particular apostolic pedigree. There is no similar reason to care whether any specific words in the writing we know as The Republic were actually written by Plato.
So I see little more than a red herring in the fact that Ehrman and other scholars do not constantly point out that what they refer to as Plato, Euripides, Galen, or Tacitus is actually the writings that have come down to us attributed to those writers rather than the original manuscripts. For the most part, it is a trivial point that goes without saying.
#John1453 on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:09 am #
re comment 175
If all we were concerned about were ideas then perhaps that view (i.e., red herring) might be correct.
But if we are trying to do historiography or determine historical truth, then the possibility of changes, of authorship, dating, accuracy, author bias, etc. become very relevant.
regards,
#John
Vinny on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:21 am #
Bryan,
I am not oblivious to bias and presuppositions. I know that they exist and that everyone has them.
Consider the following two statements.
(1) Columbus sailed across the Atlantic Ocean in 1492.
(2) Columbus discovered America in 1492.
Both statements describe the same event but the first in more objective than the second. The second interprets the first event and reflects certain presuppositions about the people who came to America prior to Columbus.
The fact of the matter is that it is the interpretations that make history interesting. On the other hand, assessing the significance of events and the connections between events opens the door to biases and preconceptions.
I think that secular scholarship takes preconceptions and biases seriously by making objectivity the ideal and developing methodologies that help identify the scholar’s preconceptions and force him or her to distinguish between facts and interpretations. I think that peer review is part of this process. We may never reach true objectivity but it is the direction in which we work. Even a historian with all sorts of biases could write the first statement about Columbus rather than the second.
Evangelicals scholars, on the other hand, often seem to want to just throw up their hands in defeat. Rather than grapple with the impediments to objectivity, they would simply declare all presuppositions equal and acceptable.
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 12:16 pm #
“I think that secular scholarship takes preconceptions and biases seriously by making objectivity the ideal and developing methodologies that help identify the scholar’s preconceptions and force him or her to distinguish between facts and interpretations.”
I’ve been in the community and read too much to believe that this is the case among secular scholars. Instead, there seems to be the idea that philosophic naturalism is true, and all proper evaluation must not only stem from this, but “prove” it in one’s study. So if I am reading James and Paul, I must conclude that the two are contradicting each other instead of complementing one another, simply because the former would supposedly be assuming coherence gained from the divine author, and the latter, more “objective” approach, would be to see the human authors as solely distinct minds that disagree with one another.
Now, it is not true that to see these in conflict or communion has anything to do with philosophic naturalism or supernaturalism; but since it is perceived to be the case by the secular community, it is only deemed scholarly to hold the latter. This is the same thing that happened to me in the Harvard interview. The Chair could not imagine in his wildest dreams that someone with a supernatural worldview could study the Pentateuch through the Documentary Hypothesis, precisely because the DH has been used to promote philosophic naturalism for so long that secular scholars often have no awareness that DATA A can be interpreted within WORLDVIEW B or WORLDVIEW C. I could have made it through Harvard, frankly, without even mentioning this fact in class, and my work would only be visibly different in that I would not have been using the data as an apologetic for my worldview, as the secular “objective” academy does. I realize they attempt to gain objectivity, but this is philosophically naive, as one who is bound to the subjectivism of his ultimate beliefs cannot be objective in any of his metaphysical interpretations whatsoever. There is, therefore, no such thing as a “more objective” methodology. There is only a methodology that becomes more committed in seeing its ultimate beliefs as the only beliefs worth having within academic discussion.
Vinny on 01 Dec 2009 at 12:24 pm #
John1453,
I agree that “the possibility of changes, of authorship, dating, accuracy, author bias, etc.” are all very important but scholarship is constrained by the available evidence. It could be that Plato’s relationship with his mother had a profound influence on his thinking, but it is unlikely that there will ever be any evidence that allows a scholar to investigate the possibility. Therefore, scholars should avoid trying to draw conclusions that depend on whether Plato’s mother breast fed him until the age of seven.
By the same token, scholars can seek to corroborate Tacitus as much as possible through other sources, but the possibility of alterations and corruptions is simply a reality that they must take into account by limiting the certainty with which they draw their conclusions.
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 12:32 pm #
Two archaeologists Ben and Sam are looking at a dig:
Ben: This statue is strong [evidence] the ancient Israelites must have been polytheistic and the Bible is therefore a later polemic. You can see the idol clearly, so YHWH, as the Bible reports Him, is clearly never a part of Israel’s more ancient history.
Sam: Well, the Bible could be genuine, and this idol a deviation from the cultus. Popular religion often differs and is more reflective of the surrounding culture than the official religion.
Ben: No look you can see the idol right here, which is completely consistent with the idea that the Israelites worshiped other gods instead of YHWH as the one and only. YHWH is therefore a later development of Israelite religion, not a genuine case of Israel experiencing God.
Sam: You are assuming your progressive religions theory. The idol might [be explained by] an entirely different event. I still see no evidence it wasn’t as the Bible reports.
Ben: Well what kind of evidence could I possibly produce that the Bible doesn’t describe the situation accurately?
Sam: There isn’t any because evidence is data that must be interpreted with one’s ultimate beliefs, and when discussing an historical past event or the metaphysical reality thereof one’s presuppositions determine his conclusions. Hence, it cannot be decided empirically.
Ben: Well I want my ultimate beliefs to explain everything, and yours to be invalid even though mine may be self refuting since they stem from a universally negative proposition.
Sam: So I guess it must be a matter of open debate among those who are kicked out your universities for not believing as you do, and I guess the debate will be closed by the village elders who don’t want their “obvious” and self evident beliefs exposed.
Vinny on 01 Dec 2009 at 12:36 pm #
Bryan,
I understand where you are coming from, but I think my belief in the truth of philosophic (or methodological) naturalism is based on its solid record of demonstrating its utility.
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 12:57 pm #
Vinny,
Please show me when philosophic naturalism, a worldview produced by a negative proposition concerning metaphysical reality, has proven one’s metaphysical analysis as accurate. The problem is that philosophic naturalism IS the metaphysical analysis, so how can it prove itself?
What you are doing is equating empirical analysis of present physical events with historical past events and metaphysical reality. We all agree that a thief most likely pried the door open with a crow bar; but what happened with the Israelites? and what is the metaphysical reality of the Bible?
Mike S. on 01 Dec 2009 at 12:59 pm #
Wow… this is a very good discussion!
I’m wondering, how would Talbot School of Theology (where I’m a student) be perceived by the so-called ‘mainstream’ schools?
Dr. Wallace’s post scared me a bit…
What if Prof. Bart Ehrman hadn’t gone to Princeton? « New Epistles on 01 Dec 2009 at 1:06 pm #
[...] 1 tags: Christian education by Kevin Sam I was just reading a very interesting blog post on Parchment and Pen (HT: TC & Joel) posted by Daniel Wallace, a dispensationalist at Dallas Theological Seminary. [...]
Vinny on 01 Dec 2009 at 1:09 pm #
Bryan,
I deny that philosophic naturalism is produced by a negative proposition. I believe that it is the result of empirical observation of the world in which we live. I don’t believe that it extends to metaphysical analysis so it doesn’t tell me what the metaphysical reality of the Bible is.
Most Biblical Scholars are not Christians « Feileadh Mor on 01 Dec 2009 at 1:10 pm #
[...] forth the idea of New Testament eclecticism I’d like to post a quote from one of his recent blog posts about the the annual meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature : As remarkable as it may sound, [...]
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 2:45 pm #
Well, I don’t really want to rehash an old debate, but empirical observation is data, Vinny, not interpretation. It’s not until one’s metaphysical beliefs come into play that one then interprets that data. I think, however, you’ve hit the nail on the head as regarding what this debate is really about. There is simply little to no reflection upon the fact that philosophic naturalism is a worldview that assumes an ultimate belief system. Our reasoning bases itself in that ultimate belief. It’s how we move from one premise to another, but there must be a first premise in order to do that. The idea that somehow what I perceive as reality and therefore is self-evident is itself a fantasy. It must assume the company line, a relatively new belief in the history of the world, and even a minority position within the contemporary world, but one with which a great clout of prestige as the “in” belief system has given it the primary place within our academic culture.
Now, of course, I am not saying that one does not use empirical means in order to observe data, nor am I saying that all belief systems are equally valid. I am only saying that what belief system gets to interpret that data should not be rooted in the idea of objectivism, which has been proven to be a modern fiction time and time again.
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 2:58 pm #
Vinny,
If it doesn’t allow you to comment on the metaphysical reality of the Bible then what would you say to modern scholarship that concludes that BIBLE BELIEF A stems from CULTURAL CONDITION B instead of from a divine source?
OR
How would you analyze the Bible in general. Is it open to ultimate contradiction, since it is only written by humans, or should it be interpreted as complementary because its production was governed by God? Or do you say nothing of contradiction or complementation in variation because you cannot assume a metaphysical belief about the Bible?
What I am essentially saying is that observing empirical data is one thing, and interpreting that data with a naturalistic empiricism rooted in an ultimate belief is another. Everyone does the former, but not everyone does the latter. Academia ought not discriminate based on one’s ultimate beliefs, therefore, because they are not a matter of a person’s scholarship being more primitive or limiting than another’s. Doesn’t university mean “unity in diversity” anyway? Where’s the diversity in worldviews within the classroom?
Vinny on 01 Dec 2009 at 3:41 pm #
Bryan,
I interpret the Bible as written by man because that is the only criteria available to me. I have lots of empirical data on the way men act and the kinds of things they do. I can look for similarities and differences between the writings in the Bible and other things men have written. I can make reasoned inferences about the perspective and beliefs of the men who wrote the Bible.
I have very little empirical data on God unfortunately. Being supernatural, he is not subject to the natural order that I observe around me. I have no other books written by God to which I can compare the Bible. I have no objective criteria by which to judge whether he is likelier to have meant one thing rather than another. I have no criteria by which to judge it more likely that God inspired Paul rather than Mohammed or Joseph Smith.
It is not my ultimate belief that there is no God that leads me to interpret the Bible this way since I do not in fact have such an ultimate belief. It is rather that the tools available for me to determine what is and is not so limit my ability to interpret things in light of their metaphysical reality.
Suppose a student proposed to base his doctoral thesis on what he divined from Tarot cards. Is it intolerance if the university tells him that such knowledge isn’t within the realm of accepted academic methodology? Should he be surprised if the university tells him that he must strive for the kind of objective knowledge contemplated by modern western scholarship? If he insists that such objectivity is a myth, shouldn’t he expect the university to tell him that he will have to go elsewhere to pursue his investigations.
C Michael Patton on 01 Dec 2009 at 4:25 pm #
Brian and Vinny, interesting discussion, but it has become isolated to the two of you and most others have no idea. I don’t want this thread to be dominated by a side discussion that has only peripheral relevance (i.e. the validity of methodological naturalism) to the main point of the post.
Vinny on 01 Dec 2009 at 4:53 pm #
Michael,
I am not sure it is tangential. If an evangelical student goes to a secular university seeking a PhD and insists that revealed truth is a valid basis for reaching conclusions, isn’t he somewhat like a student who wishes to do research by reading Tarot cards? Is a university intolerant if it declines to recognized divine revelation or Tarot cards as valid academic methodology?
C Michael Patton on 01 Dec 2009 at 4:57 pm #
I understand its relevance. My statement earlier was not good calling it peripheral. I just don’t want this to become a two way conversation. I would much rather you focus on asking Dan questions.
Vinny on 01 Dec 2009 at 5:01 pm #
Michael,
Okey-dokey. Consider my last question posed to Dr. Wallace.
C Michael Patton on 01 Dec 2009 at 5:07 pm #
As well, I ascribe, myself, as an Evangelical, to a sort of methodological naturalism to first level studies in a university setting. However, methodological naturalism, unlike philosophical naturalism, does not assume that certain conclusions cannot be drawn based on the evidence.
The illustrations that you point out are good in isolated cases, but are going to be far less effective when dealing with certain issues such as the resurrection of Christ.
I think the Evangelical should be beyond, in academic studies (even in an evangelical institution) the letting of presuppositions be his guide. But if the evidence creates certain presuppositions that are paradigmatic (i.e. Christ rose from the grave) there is going to be a hermeneutical spiral which creates an outcome on other issues that is not only responsible, but necessary.
The possibility of other options does not equate to probability. Sometimes the most rational choice is that it happened exactly as the Bible says it did. Once that is allowed, it is going to create a set of assumptions that, even under a methodological naturalistic approach, create greater probabilities that those who are philosophical naturalists are not willing or able to explore because they are not liberal enough!
C Michael Patton on 01 Dec 2009 at 5:10 pm #
Vinny, btw, don’t feel as if you cannot respond to me on what I just said. I don’t mean to keep you and Bryan from your conversation. Normally, especially when it is so good, I would allow it. I just did not want this thread to go in such a direction yet. Once two people start going at it, it normally becomes dominated by such and others don’t feel compelled to join any long.
This is just a very interesting and important issue.
*As you can see since I am involved to such a degree and I am not normally involved in even my own posts!
I do appreciate your arguments and your kindness…both you and Bryan.
Mark A. Howell on 01 Dec 2009 at 5:11 pm #
Hi Michael, I’m also loving this thread. I must admit that I find the discussion by Brian and Vinny to be central to the topic and not just isolated to methodological naturalism. Dr. Wallace mentioned in his opening post about “going where the data leads” which opens wide the epistemological door for this necessary discussion. Following Decartes, Hume, Kuhn and others, it is recognized that data, always underdetermines. This is what I think Luther meant when he said that “reason is the Devil’s greatest whore.” This means that most of the places where liberals and conservatives differ, are deductively underdetermined. The available evidence does not contradict either theory, however both theories can apply good scholarship to make their case using the available data. Correction is made by either side when an argument does not account for all the data, makes an argument from silence, or some logical error, or fails to provide a reasonable account of available data. This is what happened when Walter Bauer’s thesis was quickly refuted by Walther Volker, too bad the NT guys get read more than the HT ones. The discussion above about presuppositions, and “ultimate beliefs” is often overlooked. However, this is what Tyrell means when he responds to Harnack’s Das Wessen des Christentums by saying that “The Christ that Harnack sees, looking back through 1900 years of Catholic darkness, is only the reflection of a liberal protestant face, seen at the bottom of a deep well.” The writings of both liberals and protestants seem to mold the data into their own image and likeness.
Good scholarship is based on work which carefully explains the data in a reasonable way, given the underlying presuppositions of the scholar. If these are properly basic, then they must be allowed and should be acknowledged by both sides.
C Michael Patton on 01 Dec 2009 at 5:35 pm #
Sorry folks, the site went down for a bit…Dan’s post is overloading the server!!
#John1453 on 01 Dec 2009 at 6:08 pm #
Re the use of tarot cards in graduate level studies
Tarot has powered a number of doctorates:
(1) 2001 PhD, University of Stockholm, Gudmundsson, Magnus Tarot. New age i bild och berättelse. (Tarot. Illustration and narrating in the New Age)
and Masters
(1) 1994 MA, Pacific Oaks College, Pasadena, California
Semetsky, Inna, Introduction of Tarot Readings into Clinical Psychotherapy-Naturalistic Inquiry
One can even do a degree related to Tarot:
UK – University of Kent
MA in the Cultural Study of Cosmology and Divination
Description from the brochure:
The study of contemporary astrology and the interpretation of astrological symbolism form a central part of this MA programme which involves taught and research elements, including four modules, a learning journal and a dissertation. It may be taken full-time (1 year) or part-time/modular (2+years).
Core modules on Thursdays, optionals Wednesdays or Fridays. Modules are:
- Interpreting the Heavens: theories and methods (core)
- The Imaginal Cosmos: interpreting symbolic texts & images (core)
- Cosmology and the Arts (optional)
- The Intelligible Cosmos (optional)
- Nature, Culture and Religion (optional)
Themes include Egypt & alchemy, I Ching & Chinese philosophy, Renaissance astrology & magic, literature, art, music & cosmos, enchantment, tarot and the divinatory narrative.
Distance education option: in negotiation
If one can do a degree in Tarot and a thesis, why should there be any antipathy toward evangelicals in the secular academy? One would think there shouldn’t be, but there is. I guess evangelicals are not trendy enough. There will never be a book “Harry Potter and the Last Evangelical”.
regards,
#John
Brett Williams on 01 Dec 2009 at 6:36 pm #
Dr. Wallace,
Would you say that the same holds true for some Fundamentalist schools? I am taking a Ph.D. at an old Fundamentalist institution. In fact, I looked at receiving my terminal degree at Dallas. To be honest, the program at my current school is every bit as challenging (among other things still requiring two research languages for graduation). Except for several differences, the programs are nearly identical. The fundamentalists I train under are not “your father’s” fundamentalists either. Many young fundamentalists are gaining great footholds in scholarship (though, I must admit, we are playing catch up). Yet, at conferences I receive the same treatment. Not necessarily from liberals, but from evangelicals. Interesting. Ditto on your evaluation. Thank you for stating as such.
C Michael Patton on 01 Dec 2009 at 6:43 pm #
Brett,
I think that one of the things this post demonstrates is that we need to understand fundamentalism as an attitude, not so much a movement.
I think you will always have trouble disassociating yourself from the presumption of the separationist and obscurantist attitude and methodology since that is automatically assumed about Fundamentalists. I would say that it is an uphill battle, but, hey, look at the battle even Evangelicals (who are essentially fundamentalists to liberals!) have to face. But I would say that if your presumptions are not your guide, you are, dare I say, a true liberal. If you are committed to philosophical naturalism in your studies (which you are not), you are a “left winged fundamentalist”, as Dan put it.
But, that was addressed to Dan. I am just so excited the site is back up I had to post.
Vinny on 01 Dec 2009 at 6:46 pm #
John 1543,
I would suggest that there is a difference between studying the use of Tarot cards as a cultural phenomenon and using Tarot cards to determine that one conclusion is to be preferred over another.
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 6:51 pm #
Mark,
Well said.
Vinny,
The tarot card analogy really isn’t analogous to what happens in evangelical scholarship. My point before was that a student who believes that the Bible has supernatural origins isn’t going to argue that his interpretation is true because God told him so. Instead, he is going to approach the Bible with a view of ultimate complementation instead of ultimate contradiction. However, the philosophic naturalist is going to approach the Bible with a view of contradiction (not that it all contradicts, but that there is no reason to take variation as complementation, since the Bible is purely man made anyway). This would be fine, except for the fact that the former’s approach is not allowed. This is what I meant by saying that everyone has ultimate beliefs that play out in his or her hermeneutical/interpretive decisions. To claim that you have no such assumption based on a negative proposition is to misunderstand from whence the hermeneutical principles you just laid out above come. One doesn’t have knowledge of the metaphysical reality of the Bible from empirical analysis. This is true; but this does not mean that one does not have knowledge of the metaphysical reality of the Bible. The problem is that reality cannot be confined to what I can observe, and that belief helps me pursue passages all the more. For example, often my liberal friends would just dismiss a passage as contradiction or as the remnants of a misapplied source; but my desire to see the Bible as a coherent text leads me to look into the matter even further, and often (although not always) I have found the more obvious connection within the literary structure of the book.
That’s what I was getting at before. No one I know of is going to get to a university and start writing papers on how God told me this issue is resolved by such and such. In fact, as I argued before, the university should not be asking what metaphysical reality is true, but instead allow multiple views to present the data well argued, but consistent, with each individual’s ultimate beliefs.
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 6:52 pm #
To give a good example, when I read a commentary by a secular scholar, I analyze his empirical observations as though they could be 100% accurate; but that does not mean that I adopt his interpretation of that data that stems from his ultimate beliefs. I can, therefore, go to a university, do all of my papers and dissertation, and congenially rub elbows with my more liberal counterparts without even mentioning or even defending my supernatural beliefs. There is essentially no necessary difference between an evangelical’s analysis of the data and a secular scholar’s analysis except for when it comes to the underlying approach to the text as ultimately coherent, and any question that might come up as to whether what TEXT A teaches is true. The university should have no problem with an approach to literary texts that sees them as ultimately coherent, and should not be making any judgments, either way, on the truthfulness of a metaphysical claim. Nor should it exclude anyone who doesn’t answer that metaphysical question “correctly.”
Sue on 01 Dec 2009 at 9:56 pm #
Bryan,
I believe that you are bringing to the fore the issue I had in mind when I wrote,
“For example, authorship is by self attestation, scripture must be consistent, it must always have a message, and so on.”
The underlying issue may be that of belief in inerrancy but on the surface, the difficulty arises in that one group is committed to coherency and the other group is not.
IMO evnagelicals are committed to the scriptures being consistent within themselves, and being relevant for today. But for liberals the scriptures may or may not be coherent.
The evangelical may perhaps spend longer on the text, examining it in order to find coherence. I believe that in some cases they do. I know for sure that egalitarian evangelicals spend endless hours researching each piece of evidence for various studies on women, looking at copies of the original documents and the context. Whereas a liberal egalitarian would likely shrug it all off.
The flipside is that some articles on these topics, by evangelicals of both persuasions, can be totally off base. A thesis is often built out of thin air and rests on nothing more than a presupposition.
The desire to make the scriptures both consistent and relevant has created some unusual exegesis.
So, there really are errors, of distance, for the liberals, and of manipulation for the fundamentalists.
Which sin is less grave, that of assuming the text must be consistent and sometimes manipulating it so that it is demonstrated to be consistent, OR not really caring either way and therefore not engaging in the same kind of detailed (but not necessarily superior) research.
C Michael Patton on 01 Dec 2009 at 10:12 pm #
Sue,
I am not sure that I follow or agree that those who believe that the Scriptures are relevant or coherent necessarily manipulate the Scripture. I would certainly agree that many do and have done this since the very beginning, but what is being argued here is that many Evangelicals can and do handle the Scriptures with integrity, being first committed to a historical-grammatical (or historical-critical) approach, not to their theological presuppositions.
The implications of interpretation produce and contribute to a theology. The theology attempts to be consistent. Where there seem to be inconsistencies, one’s belief may or may not manipulate the data in an unjustified way. But this does not have to be the case.
For example, some will explain what seem to be inconsistencies with a belief in progressive revelation and intra-canonical development. In this, the inconsistencies will often remain and have a perfectly valid (and somewhat natural) explanation. Does that mean the explanation is correct? No. But there are many predetermined factors that will contribute to the direction taken.
Does the egalitarian, for example, manipulate the text in order to preserve their belief. It just depends. Same goes for the complementarian. To say nothing of other theological commitments. But there are many solutions that allow for the tension to remain and don’t necessitate an either/or approach. Therefore, the Evangelical can say both/and to many of the tensions.
But to imply that those committed to the Scriptures MUST manipulate the text may be begging the (unspoken) question here.
Maybe I am misreading you?
Sue on 01 Dec 2009 at 10:32 pm #
Michael,
I think you reiterated exactly what I was saying. This is what I wrote,
“Which sin is less grave, that of assuming the text must be consistent and sometimes manipulating it …”
You wrote,
“I would certainly agree that many do and have done this since the very beginning, …”
I am not saying that none deal with the scripture with integrity. Not at all. But the problem is that some DO manipulate the text. It is a great temptation, and many are not at all aware that they are doing so. I would suggest that manipulating the text, or even certain facts, is simply more of a temptation for evangelicals of all stripes, because they ASSUME that the text is coherent.
Liberals, on the other hand, do not ASSUME contradiction, although Bryan certainly seems to suggest that they do. IMO, liberals could not care less if two passages cohere or not. This leaves them free to simply read the text. I have heard the best language scholars admit that two passages appear to be contradictory, and even imcomprehensible, and quite frankly, they are willing to leave it at that.
I suggest that this is sometimes the more honest approach. However, there is a certain commitment and intensity to doing research as an evangelical, because so much hangs on it.
Perhaps the best research would be a mixture of commitments, the evangelical demonstrating the passion of commitment and the liberal demonstrating the need for distance and willingness for an answer to not be forthcoming.
C Michael Patton on 01 Dec 2009 at 10:45 pm #
Sue, I would agree with that.
In fact, I would go so far to say (as I do when teaching hermeneutics) that evangelicals have learned more from liberals in the last 100 years on how to interpret the Bible than we have from our own precisely because they have helped us to refocus.
However, this can only be said about true liberals, not necessarily fundamentalist left-wingers. But the problem with the universities is that they do let people in with left-winged bias over those that are theologically to their right. Why is one preferred over the other? If someone starts with the presuppositions that it is incoherent and inconsistent (because all man-made works are), then won’t that cloud their opinions just as well?
And I think that this is what Dan was arguing for in the post. There is no such thing as true academic theological liberalism anymore (at least not as it is assumed to be).
Having said all of this, do you (this goes for everyone) think that one who assumes inconsistency should be admitted? Is their bias any less threatening to the text?
Steve on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:12 pm #
Not having the time nor the energy to read thru all the comments here …so maybe someone has already made the observation;
Mr. Wallace states, “Sadly, some of the most brilliant scholars in biblical studies have become radically intolerant of conservatives.”
I’m not sure how clear my thinking is here, but has it occured to anyone to ask the question; where does “brillance” end & intolerance begin? In what sense can someone be called “brillant” when their intolerance speaks louder than anything they may have to say from within their own expertise? From my own experience (and it is just that, mine) some of the most “brillant” people I have crossed paths with don’t have any pedigree to speak of. Whereas, some of the most closed minded and intolerant are the ones who do have a high pedigree and many sheep skins hanging on their walls to validate their accomplishments. Whence “brillance?”
One additional comment: Mr. Wallace needn’t be taken to task for pointing all this out, but I do wonder why we evangelicals sometimes seem to think we have to receive some sort of applause and recognition from the world’s academic elite’s, and to be disappointed when the acceptance we seem to crave isn’t forthcoming? It seems to me that a lot of our energies are spent trying to get the scholarly “brillant” (there’s that word again) to stand up and take notice of our efforts. It sometimes makes me think it may be the result of some sort of inferiority complex…as if we, in the back of our minds really do wonder if we are correct and true in what & who we believe in.
If Mr. Wallace is correct in his assumption that well over 60% in attendance are not believers, then this antipathy toward the gospel in the academic world should come as no surprise. And it shouldn’t cause us as much unease and travail as it sometimes seems to create within our souls.
Daniel B. Wallace on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:33 pm #
Steve, I think this has been answered but this is such an incredibly long thread now that it’s difficult to keep track! Michael said it in the previous post; evangelicals have most likely learned more from liberals in the last 100 years than they have from themselves. This means that there is a great deal to learn from liberals—even those who are closed-minded and are simply left-wing fundamentalists (here, I think I disagree with Michael). It is true, such people are often so deeply ingressed in their own presuppositions that they simply are unable to see the text any other way. April DeConick, for example, wrote last September of some of her unshakeable presuppositions: Jesus was not resurrected, because dead men don’t rise from the dead. Jesus was not born of a virgin, because conception requires a Y chromosome, which must be supplied by a man. Her worldview is one of philosophical naturalism. Should someone study under her to understand the resurrection narratives better? Well, that’s not her specialty. Her specialty is the Gospel of Thomas. And there, she’s a world-class expert. I may disagree with a lot of her presuppositions about Thomas, but I have to wrestle with her opinions and the evidence she brings forth.
Or consider Rudolf Bultmann, perhaps the most radical and certainly the most influential NT scholar of the 20th century. He had a lot of good things to say, and challenged evangelicals in some tremendous ways. Yet he argued that there is no such thing as presuppositionless exegesis. That’s a view that evangelicals would almost unanimously affirm, while many liberals still think that historical positivism and neutrality are possible. Bultmann’s commentary on John is a masterpiece. His NT Theology is must reading for all seminary students. He has a lot to teach us, even though much of it is by way of negative input and über-skepticism. But what skeptics often uncover are embarrassing contradictions in how evangelicals have put their theological and historical constructions together. So, over the decades and centuries, evangelicals have reacted to liberals, but have also refined their own views in light of the interaction. My complaint is that all too often the dialogue is really a one-way street.
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:34 pm #
Sue,
“Liberals, on the other hand, do not ASSUME contradiction, although Bryan certainly seems to suggest that they do. IMO, liberals could not care less if two passages cohere or not. This leaves them free to simply read the text. I have heard the best language scholars admit that two passages appear to be contradictory, and even imcomprehensible, and quite frankly, they are willing to leave it at that.”
I suggested that they assume an over emphasized humanity to the Bible that functions, in essence, as a naturalistic tendency within their hermeneutics. I’m not quite sure what use of “liberal” you are using here, however, so I won’t pursue that too closely.
Your observation, however, is precisely what I was commenting upon before. The idea that “those other guys are biased, but we’re neutral because we don’t care” assumes a host of presuppositions. Are you telling me that liberals don’t care if hell is real? Liberals don’t care if the exclusive claims of the Bible are true? Liberals don’t care if the God of the Old Testament is the one true God who will judge them? Liberals care, Sue; and this gives them as much of an agenda to “disprove” the Bible via contradiction (e.g. Bart Ehrman) as an evangelical might have to see it as coherent. The difference is that I can allow for immediate contradiction within a text or between authors because my theology sees coherence in the canon as a whole to where those contradictions are used by God ultimately as complementation. The secular scholar cannot do the same with the entire Bible. He must find ultimate contradictions because it helps him disprove the Bible’s divine origins in his own mind. I hardly think that is unbiased.
Your comment, of course, also assumes a view of man that sets him both as outside the box of his existence/culture, as well as assuming a Pelagian concept, where rebellion is absent from the human interpreter’s disposition. Even if humans are a blank slate, that’s a comment on humanity’s metaphysical condition rooted firmly in ultimate beliefs about metaphysical reality that must be served with one’s scholarship. So much for interpreting without presupps and bias.
Vinny on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:41 pm #
If someone starts with the presuppositions that it is incoherent and inconsistent (because all man-made works are), then won’t that cloud their opinions just as well?
Michael,
If in fact we observe that all man-made works are incoherent and inconsistent, then it is not really a presupposition is it? It is a perfectly justifiable working hypothesis that the apparent contradictions amongst the various writings of the Bible do in fact reflect different understandings by the various authors. The presupposition lies on the side of the person who wishes to read coherence into the various writings because he has no empirical criteria by which he discern a single guiding mind acting supernaturally through different authors.
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:42 pm #
Let me just be clear that I believe that this “disproving” of the Bible is often an unconscious thing. I don’t think all secular scholars are running around even thinking about this in any conscious sense.
Daniel B. Wallace on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:43 pm #
To answer a previous poster: “Liberals, on the other hand, do not ASSUME contradiction, although Bryan certainly seems to suggest that they do. IMO, liberals could not care less if two passages cohere or not.” I think a major issue has been overlooked in this assertion. The vast majority of liberal theologians used to be fundamentalists or evangelicals. (One liberal scholar, a good friend of mine, said it’s close to 100%!) They changed in their views while in school, and jettisoned their former faith. There are several reasons for this. One of them is to be laid at the feet of evangelicals and fundamentalists: all too often, the tough questions coming from the genuinely inquiring student are treated as though the person had leprosy. He is shut up: “That’s not an appropriate question to ask at this seminary!” After awhile, the bewildered student begins to feel as though his or her teachers are hiding something. When he/she goes for further education, he/she suddenly realizes that s/he can’t hold to the views s/he once held to. The experience is so emotional, however, that the student feels as though his or her teachers deceived him/her. And the result? A full-blown liberal scholar who, consciously or not, is adamantly against evangelicals and makes it his/her mission in life to destroy the evangelical faith.
Craig Evans once noted that such liberal scholars often end up holding to views that are far more radical on the left side of things than their former conservative position was on the right. In other words, it’s not true that liberals have no agenda or presuppositions when they come to the Bible. They do not interpret it in a vacuum. The more contradictions they can find, the more they feel vindicated in their abandonment of the faith.
C Michael Patton on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:49 pm #
Vinny:
So which one of these assumption do you think you are starting with:
1. The Bible is definitely not inspired because we have never seen anything inspired before.
2. The Bible is probably not inspired and should not be given the benefit of the doubt.
3. The Bible might be inspired (as it and tradition claim) but inspiration is not a foundational issue of interpretation.
4. The Bible is inspired and this is a foundational issue of interpretation?
5. I have no presuppositions at all one way or another.
It seems that you start with one and assume that all Christians go to 4. Am I right?
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:49 pm #
Vinny,
philosophic naturalism (e.g. here your idea that one must gain knowledge only through what is empirically observable rather than through testimony as well) is the presupposition, not the observations that stem from it. The irony is that no one I know adopts this methodology until they want to use it to counter a metaphysical claim, which of course is one of many things it can’t do.
BTW, those uniform occurrences that stem from trascendent laws of logic and science are the result of what natural source?
I just threw that one in. I don’t really want to rabbit trail on that one.
C Michael Patton on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:54 pm #
Brian, you presuppositionalist you
Bryan on 01 Dec 2009 at 11:56 pm #
Michael,
Guilty as charged.
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:01 am #
TO ALL:
This is both a commendation and a bit of a flu shot:
Thank you all for keeping things so civil. I know how passionate that people can be about these things and that there are many who are reading this that are very committed to one side or another (and may be bitting the left (or right!) side of their tongue).
Let’s do our best to keep it this way showing gentleness, respect, and (as is the subject of our post here) openness.
Vinny on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:38 am #
Michael,
I know of no way to discern inspiredness in a writing. I know that various people throughout history have claimed that various writings were inspired but I know of no criteria by which their various claims can be evaluated other than ones that are suggested by the people who make the claims which, not surprisingly, always seem to confirm that their preferred writing is inspired. I don’t think that this is a question of assumptions or presuppositions. It is simply the state of my knowledge.
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:47 am #
So, you are open to the possibility, but you don’t ever think that any known criteria could meet the demands of confirmation?
Dee Adams on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:57 am #
The problem with DTS is that the figureheads are NOT the progressives or the new gang with a new outlook. Also the lack of Gals doesn’t help your case either. Honestly, I love Bible.org and Credo and respect the studies and the opinions but I don’t totally believe what you do. I have been “run off” and classed as not Christian and not worthy to be a full member of the body. If I am insulted by all this Christian love – what are the liberals suppose to think when all they know is what they see?
I asked once if “first century context” meant anything to the person trying to unravel a passage – the answer was NO. I asked if a new discovery in Jerusalem meant anything to the passage – the answer was NO. I asked if the Old Testament reference within the passage meant anything to the passage – the answer was NO. I asked if any new discoveries would change his outlook – the answer was NO. You come at us and look for all the world like you know everything and your Systematic Theology needs nothing from anyone else. As much as you say you are open, you really look and sound closed. So start solving the problem by looking at each other and deciding if you are proving your faith or faithfully searching the answers. Because guys you have some things very wrong that a couple of coins with a bit if Hebrew script might just solve if you would quit proofing your faith. — And the applicants might get their doctorates.
Sue on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:04 am #
Some very good points have been made. I had at first been thinking of some liberal theologians of the methodist tradition who had never been fundamentalists and really had no axe to grind that I could see. I don’t think that ALL liberal theologians are former fundamentalists. I have been privileged to work with some for whom the whole debate seems remote.
However, I will admit that there is some truth, much truth, in saying that many liberal theologians are former evangelicals and have walked the path that Dan describes.
If both sides are equally intolerant, then the question is, why would an evangelical expect to be accepted in a secular institution. If these institutions are the ones who have what the evangelicals want, then there are some serious questions to be asked by evangelicals.
Perhaps EVEN IF liberals, and those in secular institutions, publish scholarship which is manipulative and based on presuppositions, evangelicals have to clean up their act anyway. They simply have to be better, that is, cleaner and more honest. They have to make sure that they do not publish papers that are not squeaky clean.
I can honestly say that there is not a scrap of liberal or secular theology that moved me in the liberal direction, but simply the awareness that evangelical theology is not what it appears to be on the surface. Evangelical theology, or perhaps, evangelical exegesis, may be the major factor in the deconverson of scholars.
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:12 am #
Sue,
“If both sides are equally intolerant, then the question is, why would an evangelical expect to be accepted in a secular institution. If these institutions are the ones who have what the evangelicals want, then there are some serious questions to be asked by evangelicals.”
Because Evangelical do not believe that liberal arts, the university, or (even) “secularism” belongs to an agendized group. We don’t want to take it over, we just want a voice. We like that first amendment stuff. And we like the idea of the unity AND diversity that a “university” is supposed to offer. We don’t like the idea that a university can be taken over by left-winged fundamentalists and become a confessional institution all the while claiming to be non-confessional.
Philosophy departments have recognized this in the last 30 years, so should biblical studies and theology deptments.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:23 am #
Sue,
Some good points here. I often say that the most damaging element to a position is not the well thought out argument presented by the opposing party, but a bad argument presented by an advocate of that position.
I don’t think, however, that scholarship is necessarily the issue. I studied under some of the most respected evangelical scholars one can find, and it still did not matter. I have heard numerous disparaging remarks made by secular scholars about these scholars, not on the basis of their scholarship, which is not in question, but because of their beliefs. Still, your point is well taken; and I think good scholarship is something for which we here all strive.
Luke on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:24 am #
Sue,
The problem is, “evangelical” is not synonymous with “fundamentalist”! Evangelicals use the term “fundamentalist” in a pejorative sense just like the liberals do. Most evangelicals want to distance themselves as far away from the fundamentalist as the liberal does. The problem, as I see it, that some of these institutions have is that they see all evangelicals as fundamentalists. This is a mistake.
Also, they assume that all evangelicals are monolithic (republican, gay-hating complementarians). This is simply not the case.
Also, and back to one of my original points, they think that students at evangelical institutions believe EXACTLY what the institution believes and EXACTLY what the stereotypical evangelical believes. I’m at an evangelical institution, and I could personally care less about the term “evangelical.” Drop it for all I care. Also, there is no way on earth I could teach here. But I consider a good chunk of my education to be solid and it has helped me to think (isn’t that what an education is?). However, in some cases (it is being argued) the only thing the PhD committee sees is the name of the institution beside my name, they say “conservative evangelical!” & out goes the application!
Maybe they should allow more students in so our work can be more squeaky clean. . .
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:26 am #
BTW, I think the length of this post displays the frustration that many of us share with Dan toward the academy. As Michael said, we all just want to play ball, and be evaluated for our skills, not what we believe about nature of the game we are playing.
Sue on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:50 am #
My strongest reaction is that of empathy. Even though I have been accepted into a ThM program, not a well known one, but one that would have made me happy, I am not actually taking courses at the moment. Its not the right time for me. Possibly too late. I am working time and a half to put my own kids through university. It is their turn now.
But I lost the opportunity, perhaps on my own, but assisted by unfortunate circumstances related to gender beliefs in my upbringing and family.
I know how hard it is to give up a dream. I have taken on with gusto the role of provider and protector of my own family, and am no longer concerned about furthering my theological education – maybe next year.
But, at the same time, gender beliefs railroaded my life. So, for those who are young now, I don’t want to see your dreams railroaded. I know the investment that had been made.
The trouble is that liberals are no more intolerant that evangelicals, who are in some sense fundamentalists, although not extremist. And the liberals seem to have the upper hand. I don’t disagree that a lot of good points have been made, but CD- host made some good points also. And ultimately, rather than just call down the liberals, what can be done that is positive.
Rather than just deriding the liberals as intolerant just like us, in fact, let’s think about where the problem lies, and what can be done about it, if anything.
When you say that you just want to play ball, or have a voice, I have to ask, would a conservative scholar or candidate be willing to be completely silent on the issue of the restricted function of women, (and possibly on homosexuality as well.) Would that be too much of a sacrifice. Would it help at all if a school did not publish, or be known to publish, articles which have in view defining the status of women as other than the status of men? Perhaps articles on 1 Tim. 2:15 are not very good advertising? I could be all off base on this, but do you think that this has any adverse affect at all.
Susan on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:26 am #
So, Sue, you suggest we just cut out of the Bible and ignore those topics which make some people cringe? I suppose it would be a good idea to keep tight lips on the subject of God’s wrath and Hell then too, huh?
I don’t doubt that your husband was just using the ’submission’ term as an excuse for his abuse….probably throwing it at you just to get a rise, knowing full well that that term wasn’t excusing anything. Abusive men are experts at lame excuses….and twisted logic. You can’t keep blaming Bible scholars for what you went through.
jnorm888 on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:11 am #
I enjoyed the discussion and read most of the comments. However, between the going back and forth with Vinny, and Byran in regards to sola naturalism vs sola spiritual or super-natural.
Why not look at the issue much like the Incarnation or Chalcedonian Christology, in where both co-exist and work together?
Vinny seems to only look at the issue as if Christ was only human, whereas Byran makes it seem as if Christ was only Divine.
Why couldn’t the Robbers both be using a crow bar as well as being possessed through some sort of poltergeist?
I mostly agree with Byran, but I don’t see why one can’t believe in both…….at least to a certain degree.
ICXC NIKA
Luke on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:13 am #
Sue,
You’ve been doing a great job of contributing here! Your comments have been fantastic and I have really gleaned a lot from them. Let me just challenge you not to exclusively go down the path I think you might be headed
Trust me, there will be more blog posts where that topic comes up. It grieves me to think of what might have happened to you in your past regarding your husband, it really does. This post and the comments have been too good and on topic to go down that path again though. It’s not a bad path to go down, I just don’t think it’s the best place to start going. Keep those intelligent comments coming!
jnorm888 on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:22 am #
Sue,
Why are you talking about the role of women (being pastors/clergy) in all this? You seem to have an axe to grind against evangelicals and conservatives in general.
There are evangelicals that believe and have women elders/clergy….so why are you so upset?
Not that I agree with women being clergy……I just don’t understand why the issue was brought up.
ICXC NIKA
Howard Pepper on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:50 am #
Thanks for the interesting report, with a lot of details, Dan.
My exposure to the milieu of which you speak is mostly via reading in recent years, tho years ago I had direct experience of Seminary (Master’s and PhD, the former at Talbot, the latter at Claremont, in “Theology and Personality, emphasis in Religious Ed”).
At least in the case of Claremont in the early to mid 90s, I encountered a situation that did not fit the trends that you described. I entered as a definite Evangelical and left still as one, tho with a more open, questioning posture, admittedly. (Full disclosure: a few years and much personal study later, I concluded I had become an “unbeliever” as to the core doctrines of orthodoxy or “historic Christian faith.”) I found no disrespect or discrimination toward me or the several other conservative Christians there in my fairly small program. For readers not familiar, Claremont is the home of the Center for Process Studies and very influenced by Process Theology (a “liberal” but not “classic liberal” position, difficult to pigeon-hole).
Various scholars have observed and decry the point/counter-point and us-versus-them dynamic between “conservatives” and “liberals.” What I think is greatly needed and should be sought by both “sides” is true productive “dialog,” trite as that may sound — genuine LISTENING and mutual exploring on both sides, looking for understanding and common ground.
I believe I am one example, among many, of coming to creative, positive and exciting third (or 4th, etc.) positions on numerous points and in terms of influencing paradigms. I would have to call myself a “former believer” or “unbeliever” in the way I think you’d define that, Dan, though I have a vital underlying trust in a differently defined God. As such, I do have to say that I take issue with your comment about I Cor. 2:14 in comment #8: “…it is saying that unbelievers do not *welcome* the things of the Spirit of God.” I not only welcome them, but actively seek them out, and I have a lot of “unbelieving” friends who seem to feel and do the same.
Mark Howell on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:23 am #
Howard, thanks for this helpful reply. Dr. Wallace mentioned earlier that most of the liberal bible scholars were formerly more conservative, and I would say considered themselves Christian in the classical sense.
The thorny issue in dealing with properly basic beliefs is that for most, they are normative. Let me provide two examples.
Example one is a molecular biologist (Joe) at a large research university. He has foundational beliefs about scientific naturalism. These act as guide-rails for everything he does. In fact, these foundational beliefs are really necessary for his acceptance into his community of identity. If this person would change these foundational beliefs, (as sometimes happens), he is at great personal risk. For sure he had better not conduct research guided by different assumptions, not print anything which may be construed as against the foundations of this belief system. He could suffer censure, lose tenure, be academically discredited, and so fourth. You see the point we need to get is that all of us have properly basic beliefs which CONSTRAIN our thinking and research. We all just happen to think out properly basic beliefs are correct.
Example two is a theology scholar (Jill) at a confessional school. She holds to certain properly basic beliefs regarding the Christian faith. Let’s use the Nicene creed as a good summary for these beliefs. Despite diversity and division, this is what as Vincent of Lerins says, has been believed and confessed everywhere, always and by all who are in this particular community. We heard earlier from those reacting to Wallace’s statement of resurrection of Christ as a “telltale” for defining ‘Christian’, and guess what, that is what all communities do. Just as the person applying to work with Joe in example one will be excluded from the community if he states that he has serious problems with scientific naturalism. The main problem in all of this is that we are not careful thinkers about thinking. All this negative talk about exclusivity and presuppositions shows that we do not understand how these things really function. (Scientists are not trained in the philosophy of science by the way) Jill is constrained by the Nicene creed which directs her study and research. Once she changes her foundational beliefs (which sometimes happens), she will no longer be in this community. The day Dr. Wallace says that he followed the evidence and it just happened to lead to the conclusions about Christ reached by the Jesus seminar, he will be asked to hand in his resignation at Dallas seminary.
So in summary
1. Every community is exclusive or else the term has no meaning.
2. Every statement that makes an assertion of truth is exclusive (it has to exclude the opposite, or else nothing has been posited)
3. Everyone is guided and constrained by foundational, properly basic beliefs. CONSTRAINED. This is enforced by the community of identity for that individual. You are always free to…
Chima Dioka on 02 Dec 2009 at 7:10 am #
60% to 80% of scholars unbelievers? Woe unto us! We are being crowded out.
Paleo-Orthodoxy » Blog Archive » Great Blog by Dr. Wallace over at Parchment and Pen on 02 Dec 2009 at 7:25 am #
[...] not help but make a couple comments in the great discussion going on over at Michael’s blog Parchment and Pen where Dr. Dan Wallace began by lamenting the treatment some of his students received when seeking [...]
Joe Blackmon on 02 Dec 2009 at 8:14 am #
But the same post dismisses anyone who does not hold a particular view of atonement (”Jesus paid for our sins”) as a non-Christian!
I’m sorry, Chris, but I fail to see anything wrong with that. Liberals who do not hold to the atonement of Christ for our sins, His divinity, His bodily ressurection, and His miracles as being true are not Christians. Sorry to burst your bubble there, buddy.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 02 Dec 2009 at 8:14 am #
Howard Pepper: “I would have to call myself a “former believer” or “unbeliever” in the way I think you’d define that, Dan, though I have a vital underlying trust in a differently defined God.”
Do you think you would have eventually become an unbeliever even if you never went to Claremont? Or do you think you became an unbeliever in large part due to Claremont?
#John1453 on 02 Dec 2009 at 10:22 am #
My point in my comment #198 was that universities allow the study of almost anything from almost any angle (I looked up Tarot as an example because the word had come up already in this thread and it struck me as a bizarre thing to study at university, especially a study of its potential use in therapy). So if one can study the use of Tarot in therapy, why not an evangelical studying the Bible?
It seems apparent that the issue is not one of skill or ability, or even the recognition of such, but the sort of discrimination that cannot be countered by the display of skill and ability. If that is the case, then how do evangelicals overcome it? The only practical approach seems to me to do what was done by the conservatives that took back the Southern Baptist denomination, or the trailblazing as done by Plantinga, etc. That is, one goes the fully secular route and gets a job at a university, joins the committees, etc. and changes it from the inside by pushing for the acceptance of evangelicals.
When I was doing my undergrad, I realized there was not much hope if I pursued graduate degrees at “religious” schools. So I went the secular route. I did another undergrad degree, and ended up having my career go in a different direction (Master of Environmental Studies, etc.).
Anyway, I don’t see the secular institutions changing except from the inside.
The other issue I see is, what does one want to do with one’s degree? Teach at a secular institution or a confessional / religious one? If its the former, why pursue graduate degrees at a religious institution. If its the latter, why is a secular degree necessary? Furthermore, if one is concerned about supporting an evangelical view of the Bible, or doing good research from within that framework, and getting that information to students, pastors and the person in the pew, why the need for a secular degree? One can do great work within the evangelical and fundamentalist world at evangelical and fundamentalist institutions.
regards,
#John
regards,
#John
Mike on 02 Dec 2009 at 10:33 am #
Interesting but not surprising perspective. I think the root of this however transcends liberal vs. evangelical or merely just a completely unjustified bias although that’s symptomatic. The whole concept pervades the higher educational system at large (ref: George Marsden’s books). If I might be so simple as to suggest that this is more of a sign of the underlying work of the ruler of the age. The religious elite in the first century at best only sniffed at the teachings of the Messiah. Why should His followers expect anything less today?
Josh Meares on 02 Dec 2009 at 10:50 am #
Hmm … what would happen if we “redefined” conservative and liberal to mean what they originally meant? In other words, a conservative is someone who supports the status quo and a liberal is someone who supports changing the current system. Then if we take a short view, say the last 50 years, everything makes sense. The “theologically liberal” has been in power, and therefore is conservative. While the “theologically conservative” has been out of power, and its attempts at infiltrating academia are liberal.
Thus, in a socio-political sense, the actions of both parties make sense. It’s just the addition of all the history before the last 50 years that confuses everyone.
At the very least, it should be comforting that all liberals in academia are persecuted in such a way … education is, of necessity, a conservative force. What happened to respected researchers who found holes in Darwin’s theory? What happened to the last serious, respected scientist who rejected current projections of global warming? Or literature profs who argued for an older interpretation of Shakespeare? Or even scientists that proposed alternative solutions to global warming besides carbon neutrality?
But, in a sense, theological conservatives now are paying for what “we” dished out earlier. So, I don’t begrudge the liberals their conservatism, even if I don’t find it exceptionally fair. Karma and all that.
But … seriously? Someone said that it is unchristian to believe there is some kind of dividing line? Have you read the gospels?
Kit on 02 Dec 2009 at 11:09 am #
¡Hola, amigos y amigas!
I feel like I just read a marathon after all 233 posts so far … thanks to all for the stimulation, and thanks for any answers to what lies below
How do liberal-fundamentalists explain the lack of bias in the English universities who accept DTS grads? I have not yet read a good defense of American academia in contrast to the English sort. (Thanks to Dale for his comments in post 159)
What happens to graduates from other liberal-conservative schools such as TEDS, Wheaton, or Gordon-Conwell when they apply for PhD programs at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc? Thanks to Bryan for his “personal testimony” in post 156 – but as Dan said earlier, it would be great to get up a few more voices. Colleagues of mine from Moody (God bless the school that D.L. Moody founded) chose Wheaton over DTS because of their advancement anxieties; what’s the scoop on these other places?
If we’re all to “go where the evidence leads,” what if the evidence leads different people to different conclusions – dare I say it, a confessional perspective informed by evidence? We need liberal scholarship that is open to this possibility. Thanks to Mark, post 196, for beginning to address this question, and a kudos to Bryan in post 202 for his best case scenario to explain the refusals of American universities: ultimate conflict over ultimate complementation and ultimate contradiction.
@Vinny in post 211: “If in fact we observe that all man-made works are incoherent and inconsistent … It is a perfectly justifiable working hypothesis …” Which posts of yours here are incoherent or inconsistent? I don’t think you meant to be either, but if this is a good working hypothesis … please explain?
How about this scenario: Would students interested in the research of Egyptian or Roman gods be refused an education where those subjects were taught if they actually believed in them? How about Muslims or Jews? Just curious … (Thanks #John1453, posts 198 and 232)
Apologies for the length of this post: trying to summarize 233 responses to thoughts briefly!
Kit on 02 Dec 2009 at 11:11 am #
*Side note: I need to find out more about what liberals believe about God’s holiness. Something there doesn’t always seem to jive with God’s love for everybody, everywhere, no matter what – but perhaps I’ll find some material in the library rather than in a blog post here?
Sue on 02 Dec 2009 at 11:15 am #
#John1453,
The only practical approach seems to me to do what was done by the conservatives that took back the Southern Baptist denomination, or the trailblazing as done by Plantinga, etc. That is, one goes the fully secular route and gets a job at a university, joins the committees, etc. and changes it from the inside by pushing for the acceptance of evangelicals.
I think you know that this will shift the oppression back onto women. I actually believe that women should be able to study without being exposed to opnions that they should not “want to teach men.” That is, if someone wants to discuss what the text says, fine, no problem, but if someone thinks that women should not seek employment in places of higher education, ie teaching “men” then they should actually not express those opinions in a persuasive or evangelizing manner. They should actively attempt to not challenge women and make them uncomfortable for wanting to join in with men in the academy.
The same goes for views on homosexuality and non-Christians, ie Jews, all believers in other faith, former believers and non-believers, going to hell.
If these things are not the issue, and we have decided that scholarship is not the issue, then where next?
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 11:21 am #
I am a DTS student graduate who was accepted into a top-tier PhD program in a Bible field directly out of the ThM. On the whole I had mostly positive experiences interviewing with professors.
A few thoughts:
1) Professors from mainline Universities are inundated with potential students and applications. As a mere grad student I have begun avoiding events with potential students (receptions, etc.), because there are so many people who want to get into programs and who are eager to show off their knowledge. Sometimes shortness or unfriendliness may not be bias at all.
2) With so many applicants, these professors can take the cream of the crop. In biblical studies, DTS students are not always the cream of the crop. If you can choose someone with solid undergraduate and masters work in schools that are one-to-one with yours, why wouldn’t you? The mere fact that DTS students are seeking the prestige of other Universities illustrates the point – if DTS is such an amazing school, why not stay there and do a PhD?
3) The language-counting game is baloney. I have taken exegetical courses at both DTS and at a University Divinity School, and the requirements for the Div classes far exceeded those in Seminary. I have seen students take one year of Hebrew at this school and have more advanced knowledge and facility with the language than my contemporaries at DTS. I took an Advanced Hebrew class at DTS in which half the class was still struggling with the concept “segholate noun,” which made studying the historical grammar of segholate nouns difficult. While acknowledging that a person CAN excel at DTS in languages, it is also possible that a person got through the ThM and still doesn’t have them down. I know of a case – the guy was hot stuff at DTS and ended up dropping out of his PhD program once he learned what real language study was all about. So saying, “I studied x, y and z languages” doesn’t mean everything.
4) British PhDs are not always as rigorous as American PhDs. They give you an excellent research model, but not comprehensive knowledge of the field. That’s because in Britain, you’re expected to have done your BA in a very narrow field. It is common knowledge in the field that Evangelicals often to go England, do a dissertation in a narrow topic, and then come back and teach at confessional schools. PhDs from Oxford are thus not necessarily placed on the same level as PhDs from Harvard when hiring professors in American Universities, unless perhaps the person’s entire education is British.
5) Many biblical studies departments in Universities have self-consciously decided to approach questions from historical-critical vs. confessional approaches. This is a type of bias, but it’s a type of bias that a department is allowed to have. American philosophy departments have largely gone for an analytic approach, and would view as suspect someone who studied Satre and Heidegger in a Continental school and who has little…
Vinny on 02 Dec 2009 at 11:28 am #
Michael,
Because humans are finite beings, I deem all knowledge to be provisional. However, I think that some ideas have stood the test of time sufficiently well that the possibility that they will be overturned seems exceedingly remote. By the same token, I think there are ideas that have proved themselves unsatisfactory to an extent that the possibility that they will be rehabilitated seems similarly remote. Among these are supernatural explanations for the world that we observe including the orthodox Christian notion of the divine inspiration of scripture.
I don’t know that this would meet conventional understandings of “open.” In fact, if I were a university considering a PhD candidate, some might label it “intolerance.”
Bryan,
I don’t think that is quite my idea of philosophic naturalism, but I think we can continue having a constructive without laying out a rigorous definition here. However, I don’t think that it categorically precludes consideration of testimony.
I think that most people use philosophical naturalism so regularly to explain the world around them that it never even occurs to them to name it. When an evangelical Christian’s car acts up or he wakes up feeling under the weather, most will look for a natural explanation of the phenomenon without ever considering the possibility that an angel or demon is at work. If he serves on a jury and hears two witnesses tell conflicting stories, he assumes that only one of them can be correct without ever considering the possibility that some supernatural event occurred that might harmonize the contradictions. In almost all historical inquiries including the history of religions other than his own, he is perfectly content with naturalistic explanations. It is only when it comes to the events that occurred in early first century Palestine that he embraces the explanatory power of revealed truth and subjective spiritual experience.
I would submit that everyone you know adopts this methodology almost all the time.
John1453,
I don’t think it is a question of what is being studied. It is a question of how to pursue the ideal of objectivity in the conclusions that are reached about the thing. I don’t see any problem with examining the therapeutic effects of prayer, Tarot readings, exorcisms, astrology, or any other unscientific approach. There is so much we do not know about the interaction of the mind and body, that any attempt to get at the healing triggers may be worthwhile. However, the conclusions must be based on empirical observations rather than reading the Tarot cards.
Todd on 02 Dec 2009 at 11:42 am #
My first semester @ DTS, I was speaking with a classmate about my background and he asked, “With all of that in your background, what lead you to dispensationalism?”
I can honestly say that I had never even heard the term all throughout my seminary application procedure, nor did I ever feel pressured to believe in the big D while at DTS.
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 11:46 am #
…or no experience doing analytic philosophy, especially when there are 100 other applicants who come from analytical schools. Is this academic bias? Might we argue that the student of Heidegger should have his voice? A biblical studies professor at a University has similar concerns. She wants to do historical criticism and leave all possibilities open. He wants to train his students to DO source criticism in the Hebrew Bible, which requires intensive training, much more than merely learning about it. A student from DTS knows some languages and exegesis, but that’s not everything. A student from Princeton with only one year of Hebrew might know Hebrew better – because e.g. they’re required to read it and comment on it extensively in class rather than sitting and listening to the professor’s notes – and they will have more experience in the TYPE of study that the professor is actively doing in the classroom than a DTS grad. I have seen such MA students graduate from the Divinity school in my program. If it were MY decision, I would choose them over me coming from DTS.
5) I completely agree with TAVW that DTS educational experience has glaring lacunae. While I am grateful to DTS and happy that I got into a good program from DTS, were I to do it over, there is no chance I would attend DTS again. The BE department offers nothing but an extended English Bible survey/trivia course, and many (not all) of the professors in that department are downright anti-intellectual and plain fruity (the ones who aren’t fail to prepare you for the standardized trivia tests). Please, Professor Wallace, go sit in on some of these classes. Listen to Eliot Johnson or Robert Lightner for a semester and tell me the Emperor has clothes. I made it through a slew of theological classes without ever reading Stanley Hauerwas. And with due respect to the NT Department and Professor Wallace, who do a very good job in my opinion, it is not altogether true that you don’t beat up on people who deviate. You may not, but the deviating students must still sign a statement of inerrancy in order to graduate!
6) Dispensationalism stormed forth from highly non-academic, extremely sectarian beginnings. It emerged in the same period and with a similar spirit to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Its gnostic roots are acknowledged by Sys Theo profs at DTS. Yes, Block and Blaising have rescued it – but can we blame those who view modifications of a bizarre, populist theological system as suspect? DTS, Moody, and the like were founded as reactions against the directions liberal Universities wished to go, and they are well-aware of that history and proud of the side they chose. Can we blame them if they don’t welcome us back with open arms because our NT department has some professors who did PhDs in Evangelical-friendly England? This is a far greater divide than Analytic vs. Continental philosophy, and to some degree it’s fair! Ok, we’re in the game to a degree, but we’re late to…
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:01 pm #
Vinny, so you are saying that there are previous commitments or that you bring which you believe are justified. Therefore, you do not start each and every study with a presuppositionless blank slate. This seems to be an anti-spiritualistic presupposition. Even if the easiest explanation from the data (not your presup) seems to be that something extra-ordinary happened, you do not allow it.
So, like the lady earier…”we know that Christ did not raise from the grave because people do not raise from the grave.”
In the end, this demonstrates our point here. You are not truly liberal and true history cannot be acquired since there are prejudices shaping the outcome.
I know that religious people do just the opposite as they will look for “a devil in every corner,” but your method is not really any different from the standpoint of integrity.
That was my point of the questions earlier. Thanks for answering.
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:05 pm #
…the game, and the ways in which we’re not in the game are many. That’s ok, too – DTS is not a University and has a different purpose, but that’s why we’re not one-to-one with Universities, and why other Universities and their students are. Universities do not have as their primary goal the training of PhD students to go back to confessional schools and prepare pastors for ministry. But again – we started it.
7) In my mind, and I’m sure in many University professors’ minds, the Chicago Statement of Inerrancy rules out the possibility of doing certain types of historical criticism, the key methodological basis for University Departments. If a graduating DTS student signs a statement agreeing to inerrancy – and if you ask how it’s defined the DTS Powers that Be will point you to the Chicago Statement! – and applies into a PhD program that uses such methods in the same six-month period, what does that mean? The student must either wish to learn these methods and approaches but never use them or find them legitimate, or some intellectual dishonesty is on the loose. Inerrancy is a theological, confessional hermeneutic. Universities are interested in historical-critical hermeneutics. I very much understand why they are nervous to bring on someone who just confessed to a hermeneutic at odds with the methods they plan to use in the classroom for the next three-four years.
Departments at University do seek to define themselves and to produce certain end results. You do not want to become a department that is known for graduating Evangelical students who are very good at languages or who study exclusively something besides biblical studies (say Akkadian) and then go back to Evangelical schools and teach the Bible, ignoring huge swaths of the academic discipline. How many of the biblical studies people at DTS did their PhDs in Universities in biblical studies proper vs. Aramaic or Akkadian or Koine Greek (I don’t think you can get a PhD in Koine Greek alone in an American University!) or Herod Antipas?
I mean no disrespect at all – on the contrary, I have a good deal of respect for DTS NT and OT professors – and I am open to correction if any of my impressions are false.
Vinny on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:14 pm #
Kit,
I was not arguing that all man-made works are incoherent and inconsistent. I was responding to Michael’s question “If someone starts with the presuppositions that it is incoherent and inconsistent (because all man-made works are), then won’t that cloud their opinions just as well?” My point is that when we compare writings by different authors based on our knowledge of other writings and writers—i.e., whatever characteristics we might observe in all man-made works—we are using empirically observed patterns. I don’t think that this is a presupposition. On the other hand, when we insist upon reading two writings as coherent due to a divine mind operating above both writers, we are imposing a pattern of a type for which we have no observational data.
Nick Norelli on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:29 pm #
Vinny: You said:
But doesn’t that just assume your conclusion? On what basis do you say that we have no “observational data” for such when the “two writings” might provide exactly that data?
Dee Adams on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:38 pm #
“It is only when it comes to the events that occurred in early first century Palestine ….”
When you still think that those first century souls were Palestinians and spoke Greek and thought in Greek-style, you are not seeing what is being dug up from the ground in ISRAEL or what is being said in the very words of the script of the letters and gospels. Hebrew scholars studying in the Land (Judaic and Christian) say that on average American religion is 50 years behind the scholarship in Israel. Even Finkelstein knows that what he has found changes Judaism (not as much as he wants to change it but it changes the bias and basis of the religion). What has been found also changes Christianity and what we thought we knew. Are a few of your confessionals going to fall – yes they are and yes they should; they are old dead men’s Greco-Roman understanding. They don’t fit the evidence any more – if they ever did.
Open up, catch up, be bold. You don’t have to go full liberal but you must come out of the Dark Ages. Or what you have to offer the conversation – esp that divine part and the Resurrection – will never be heard or worse lost forever.
Edward T. Babinski on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:44 pm #
Michael Patton wrote: Dallas Theological Seminary “has never required its students to adhere to this [dispensational] system of interpretation.”
True enough, but please note what they MUST adhere to, a list that includes Inerrancy. Inerrancy does not permit the existence of many if any genuinely important questions and distinctions between the Jesus of History and the Christ of Faith. There are also NON-INERRANTIST Christians, including Evangelicals who are non-Inerrantists and semi-inerrantists, but apparently those are all heretics according to DTS’s list of core Christian beliefs (See Dr. Robert M. Price’s recent book, INERRANT THE WIND: THE TROUBLED HOUSE OF NORTH AMERICAN EVANGELICALS):
Core Beliefs
While our faculty and board annually affirm their agreement with the full doctrinal statement (below), students need only agree with these seven essentials:
the Trinity
the full deity and humanity of Christ
the spiritual lostness of the human race
the substitutionary atonement and bodily resurrection of Christ
salvation by faith alone in Christ alone
the physical return of Christ
the authority and inerrancy of Scripture.
Bill on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:49 pm #
@Joe B (#236)
“Liberals who do not hold to the atonement of Christ for our sins, His divinity, His bodily ressurection, and His miracles as being true are not Christians. Sorry to burst your bubble there, buddy.”
I believe all those things, but I was a believer in Christ long before I heard the words ‘atonement’ or ‘divinity’. I still can’t explain them well, today. So perhaps there’s a strong point behind what you are saying, but I do wish you’d clarify… and perhaps simplify? Or Dan, CMP or someone else?
The definition (somewhere above) of “christian” as “someone who follows Christ’s teaching” is always going to be more attractive to the general public. The definition of “holding” a list of doctrines will always be a bit askew from illustrating who what Christ-ones really are. My definition – “someone who lives in Christ” is generally too experiential for most ecclesiastical theologians, who traditionally feel more comfortable with verifiable litmus test of doctrine.
All three definitions have some validity. All three are lacking in some way(s). Again, perhaps we can simplify?
What is a “christian”?
Susan on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:54 pm #
Bill, a Christian is one who is indwelt by the Holy Spirt.
Edward T. Babinski on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:56 pm #
Secondly, conservative Christian interpretations of the Bible and history have been tried, and found wanting by every university over 150-200 years old. That’s why all conservative Christian universities in the U.S. are relatively young establishments, many founded in the 1920s during the fundamentalist-modernist controversy, while Harvard, Yale, Princeton, even Calvin’s original college in Geneva, though all founded as conservative Christian seminaries, now discuss the historical approach to the Bible and keep in mind all the questions that raises, without providing their students unquestionable answers to such questions.
Susan on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:05 pm #
And Edward Babinski is a perfect example of what Dan described as the liberal scholar who was once a confessed evangelical….who now thrives on finding contradictions in order to validate his more recent anti-Chritian confessional stance.
#John1453 on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:08 pm #
CSC makes some very trenchant points.
I also found a great deal of variation in the academic level of the bible and theology courses I tool during my first degree, with no meaningful work by the administration to ensure a particular approach (are we scholarly? pastoral? remedial?) or standard of excellence among either professors or students.
In addition, I’ve found the environment to be very different between universities and confessional (i.e., confess to belief in Jesus) institutions. University was much more competitive (students hid library books). Confessional institutions are places with students that go their to park for a year, because they want to top up their bible knowledge before they go to university / college, because their parents want them to or paid for it, etc. Not exactly the environment that is accepting of demanding profs, nor a competitive environment for students.
Furthermore, students often choose confessional institutions because of the underlying belief system in place and promoted (reformed, methodist, pentecostal, anabaptist, etc.), whereas that is not the case at a university. Consequently, there is a lot more group think or common think and less questioning of oneself and others than at university. Consequently its not surprising that many scholars, etc. don’t have a crisis of faith until after they leave the confessional institution: Bart Ehrman as a case in point. These crises should be happening at the confessional institutions if they were doing their teaching job properly (in the sense of teaching inquiry and challenge as at university).
What happens, at least from my perspective, is that these public transformations away from evangelicalism or fundamentalism indicate to the wider world, including university admissions, that evangelical schools are not doing a good job of educating and creating open inquiring well-prepared minds, but are just training students to believe what they grew up believing.
Then there are the cases like Peter Enns. It’s obvious what that signals to secular institutions. I wouldn’t be surprised if John Walton eventually has to hit the road.
In addition, evangelical institutions don’t do enough to separate themselves from, and critique the “nut job” evangelical insitutions that teach young earth creationism. So everyone gets lumped in together.
Confessional institutions that want greater secular respect for their students and professors are also looking at what has happened to institutions that did try for more respect or more openness to ideas. They became secular insitutions or universities. They lost their confessional “uniqueness” and their value for churning out like-minded pastors and housewives and church members and elders. It does not seem to me that (other than perhaps Fuller) that evangelical institutions want to go into a neighbourhood (i.e. secular respect) that could get them mugged and turned into a theologically liberal institution.
#John
Bill on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:10 pm #
To the main point:
The best comment I’ve seen so far is Dan’s (somewhere in the middle) that the Liberal Institutions have their unspoken lists, which obviously cannot be officialized in public universities. The whole problem, to me, is that they’re just doing what the ecclesiastical organizations did for so many centuries beforehand. The issue is not about access to the process. The issue is about controlling the end product.
If UK schools are truly more tolerant, it may only reflect Europe’s progression beyond the battles for religious freedom. You’d think the US was founded on that freedom, but theological and political domination by clergy has always been a localized personal experience.
The inherent (sinful) resistance to God Himself notwithstanding, a large portion of this problem can probably be blamed on the church. Until Christian Leaders become more “truly liberal”, the so-called Liberals are likely to feel justified in giving back as good as they get, thus, in their minds, preserving some balance.
———————–
But back to the central point of the post – and in the interest of DTS students like Mike W & Rob K – it seems DTS may only need to spread word about the distinctions of their NT and OT dept’s. On that suggestion, I’m only summarizing what I think I’ve heard here so far. As for myself, IDK.
By the way, many thanks to Dan and everyone. This has truly been a fascinating conversation so far…
Luke on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:20 pm #
CSC,
Thanks for sharing, brother! That was very comprehensive. While prefacing this remark by saying I agree with most of what you say, I do want to note that it is ironic how you say you had “mostly positive experiences” with professors despite the fact that you got your ThM from DTS, and then you go on to list reasons students at DTS have negative experiences with professors and universities and should not be accepted by them! Perhaps you were a rare exception to the rule.
However, I do want to note, that there are many, many students at DTS who are just like you. They come to a conservative seminary because that’s about all they have knowledge of and they are interested in ministry or biblical-theological studies & are getting no substance at church. During the course of their study in the first or second year, they develop a great love for the academic side of biblical studies and it becomes a passion. They want to stay in the academic realm because that helps them learn more about God and they think they can be of greater service to the church if they do so. They have professors who introduce them to the depths of the languages, backgrounds, and complexities of the issues about things we’ve always been given short, pithy answers about. The student wants more because this is new knowledge that he has never pursued and has never heard about.
The student starts reading the likes of James Dunn, Adela Collins, Brevard Childs, Stanley Hauerwas (outside of class, that is!) and realizes that it is at these institutions (Duke, Yale, Princeton, etc.) that the big name people are at. It is at these institutions where the rigorous work is being done. The student then decides to pursue a PhD at one of these institutions to study under these people to become more knowledgeable in the field.
In the student’s pursuit of deeper knowledge and a more robust education, he/she realizes how “out of date” and “silly” some of the classes and departments are at their conservative institution. However, by this time the student is in his/her 3rd year, with one to go. His/her church is supporting them, and they just have one more year to go. Why not finish it out? Despite the fact of the fluff, there are still some legitimate profs who can really help the student in their pursuit of a better education
Then the student realizes something: the great conservative/liberal divide. It doesn’t make much sense to the student, but it’s the way the system is. The student has worked his/her tail off reading the great minds (mostly outside of class!), learning the languages, catching up to date with current scholarship, etc. He/she is trapped. They don’t share the same convictions the institution does. They don’t share the same passions their profs do. But he/she is just as bright as the masters student at Princeton, Yale, Duke. Their GRE scores are just as good, they know more languages, they’re just as knowledgeable about hermeneutics and HC. What…
Kit on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:32 pm #
@Vinny, post 250 – My bad! My winky comment should be addressed to Michael instead
@Michael – winky comment for you above …
Edward T. Babinski on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:35 pm #
Susan, Thanks for attacking the person rather than addressing the issues of history and the Bible and of scholars who are not apostates but who are not inerrantists either.
Edward T. Babinski on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:38 pm #
Has anyone read professor McGrath’s blog?
He addresses many of these same issues that Michael has raised:
His blog is “Exploring our Matrix” and his recent reply is dated and titled:
Wednesday, December 2, 2009
The Bible, Christianity and Scholarship
Rod said…
I have a friend who went through a heresy trial at Dallas Seminary. After the heresy trial was over, Dallas Seminary wrote to the parents of this said student, explaining that he was an anathema to the church. Dan Wallace’s complaint about liberal intolerance will fall on deaf ear when it comes to me.
Dave Rattigan said…
Even if liberals reject a conservative view out-of-hand, by definition the liberal view is more open, and thus more reasonable.
Basically, the conservative view says, “Only X is true. Everything outside X is false.”
The liberal view (as the conservative view characterizes it) says, “Only X is definitely not true. Everything outside X is possible and open to investigation.”
So which position is more reasonable? To accept only a tiny set conclusions and reject the vast area outside, or to be open to a vast range of possibilities, and reject only one tiny set of conclusions? Logic tells me the liberal approach is more true to the spirit of scholarship.
Luke on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:40 pm #
And I do want to say, CSC, that you’re actually the first person I’ve heard say that the languages at the mainline schools are more challenging and better than the conservative institutions. That’s after not just hearing my conservative professors’ testimony, but after hearing both students’ and professors’ testimonies at the mainline universities and liberal institutions! Perhaps the school you went to is an exception and in the minority, but it’s certainly not the claim I hear from people on both sides of the spectrum.
Also, the student is not required to define “inerrancy” as in-line with the Chicago Statement. I don’t! So that’s a fallacy with people who assume such, and if you assumed this definition during your tenure at DTS then you were reading too much into the term “inerrancy.”
And one more thing; some DTS students ARE the cream of the crop. The professor just doesn’t think so because it says “DTS” beside their name. Obviously, you were the cream of the crop and you graduated from DTS. There are more “yous” here than you think. I personally wouldn’t want to get my PhD at the same place I got my masters, and I would suggest many students from conservative seminaries want to go to the mainline divinity schools because the well has run dry with the conservatives and they want to be challenged more and respected in the field.
Students should be evaluated by a host of factors, not just where they got their masters degree. Like I said above, seminary/divinity school is often what you make of it. A seminary student at DTS can get twice as much out of his/her education as an MDiv student at Duke or MAR student at Yale. He/she may have to work twice as hard and it may be more challenging, but it can be done (independent studies, self-study, alternative readings outside of class, developing relationships with profs at other institutions, etc.).
You should pick the institution you want to be educated at based upon your vocational goals. The problem is, most are unsure of their vocational goals until their 2nd & 3rd year of school. Now the system says they’re essentially trapped, and that’s why I think the system needs reform. It’s a mistake on the part of the university to think the education the student at the conservative institution received is inferior, fundamentalist, etc. It’s a mistake to think they hold to the same values all conservatives do, it’s a mistake to think they are less knowledgeable than another student who graduated from a more prestigious school, and it’s a mistake to assume they’re a narrow-minded bigot. Students at conservative institutions push the envelope just as much as their counterparts at the prestigious schools. They may be fewer percentage wise, but they are there. My personal experience will not allow me to say otherwise.
Susan on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:52 pm #
Ed, I don’t mean what I said as an attack, but rather it is a truthful observation based on conversations I have had with you, and those I have observed you having with others. Much like Bart Ehrman,you seem to have a desire to lead others down your trail– thus divorcing themselves from Christianity.
The Other Good Discussion « Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:54 pm #
[...] Other Good Discussion Most of us are aware of the good discussion taking place at Parchment and Pen on Dan Wallace’s recent post but there’s been another [...]
Susan on 02 Dec 2009 at 1:59 pm #
Ed, “So which position is more reasonable? To accept only a tiny set conclusions and reject the vast area outside, or to be open to a vast range of possibilities, and reject only one tiny set of conclusions? Logic tells me the liberal approach is more true to the spirit of scholarship.”
But, not necessarily true to God’s Spirit, who is very specific about truth.
Howard Pepper on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:08 pm #
Let me respond to a few:
Mark Howell (#233): A very well stated comment which I agree with nearly 100%, and have stated similarly myself. Indeed, most institutions/communities operate within fairly rigid paradigms (we ALL, necessarily, utilize organized patterns to make sense of almost anythng… just important we regularly step back and re-examine and perhaps revise them, which gets tougher and tougher the more one has at stake, as you wisely point out).
The point of my personal Claremont example was partly to say that there are degrees of openness and true academic freedom and to seek out and support the more open models…. Ironically, less “Christian” Europe may be ahead of America re. this, if Dan is correct. But Mark, your point is valid and important that bottom line, every community is exclusive at some point. Even one being as broad and inclusive as possible cannot logically include exclusivism, else it cancels the inclusivism. So, in that sense, no group CAN be truly inclusive… a point the “inclusive” crowd often misses, causing confusion.
“Truth Unites…” (#237): I do think I’d have left the Evangelical/orthodox fold without attending Claremont, as I never stop asking deeper questions, seeking answers from diverse angles… it just might have taken longer. My experience there knocked down some stereotypes I’d picked up and exposed me to a LOT of good deeper information and thought as well as “liberal,” “process,” “neoorthodox,” etc. devotion to God, Christ, and spirituality.
Ed Babinski (#253, 6) and Susan (#257): Thanks for the good points and specifics on DTS… about what I’d expect from my knowledge and my own experience at Talbot (similar theology), which DID, in my days there, require assent to a Pre-Trib position (thankfully no longer, I believe). Susan, could it not also be that for Ed, as I’d say for myself, that he found contradictions, disconnects, spin, etc. FIRST, leading him to new positions, rather than citing them just to “validate his more recent anti-Christian confessional stance?” (Somehow mysteriously or “rebelliously” arrived at? Perhaps deceived by Satan?)
Daniel B. Wallace on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:19 pm #
Last time I checked there were not yet 220 comments on this blog post. I teach my classes and come back and we’re in the 260’s! Apparently, it’s hitting a nerve. I appreciate how civil the conversations have been. This is an important dialogue. I would like to pick up on a couple of comments:
Edward said, “Conservative Christian interpretations of the Bible and history have been tried, and found wanting by every university over 150-200 years old.” Edward, that’s simply not true. Cambridge University, Oxford University, Tübingen University, Durham, Edinburgh, Duke, Manchester, St Andrews, Aberdeen, etc. have conservative Christians in the faculty of their religion departments. Well respected faculty, too. And Princeton Seminary, though not a university, had Bruce Metzger for 46 years. Conservatives have had a huge influence, and their views have not been tried and found wanting. Their views have actually refined liberal views, and vice versa. The attitude that says the game is over is the very kind of attitude that I have argued is a closed-mindedness that is not helpful for dialogue.
John 1453 said: “Confessional institutions are places with students that go their [sic] to park for a year, because they want to top up their bible knowledge before they go to university / college, because their parents want them to or paid for it, etc. Not exactly the environment that is accepting of demanding profs, nor a competitive environment for students.” This, too, betrays an attitude that is not related to any confessional seminary I know of. No demanding profs at these schools? Have you ever heard of Bruce Waltke? He was so demanding a prof that students would regularly fail his courses, but because he was so brilliant and godly, they took the courses from him. He has two earned doctorates, one from Harvard in Semitics. The man knows close to 50 languages. I have found that many universities breed apathy, not competition. Or competition that is all the wrong sort. Can you tell me what schools you were thinking of?
Rod said: “I have a friend who went through a heresy trial at Dallas Seminary. After the heresy trial was over, Dallas Seminary wrote to the parents of this said student, explaining that he was an anathema to the church. Dan Wallace’s complaint about liberal intolerance will fall on deaf ear when it comes to me.” This story has all the earmarks of an apocryphal tale to me. Why on earth would the parents of a grown man be told about any such heresy trial? When did this happen? And anathema? I’ve been on faculty at DTS for 25 years; I’ve never heard of any student here fall under such a curse. Let’s stick to facts, not hearsay.
#John1453 on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:30 pm #
What university wants to graduate a student with a PhD where that believes in a young earth and that belief is important to the subject under study? Such a belief wouldn’t make a difference to a PhD in textiles or engineering, but it would in geology or biblical or divinity studies. [I paust to note that my previous comment put scare quotes around "nut job" to indicate that such is the perspective of secular insitutions]
Think of that ruckus (and institutional embarrassment) in the past couple of years caused by that PhD student who graduate with a PhD in (paleontology?)
Institutions have long memories because of the long tenure of the professors in them. What professor will forget that Geisler of DTS advocated the teaching of special creation in the Arkansas creation trial?
And what about those DTS profs who promoted a book attacking Hugh Ross? They wrote back cover blurbs: “Hugh Ross’s claims for Progressive Creationism are carefully and critically countered from cripture, science, and theology in this timely book.”
Robert P. Lightner, Th.M, Th.D — Professor of Systematic Theology, Dallas Theological Seminary; and “Anyone making a serious study of the early chapters of Genesis should have this book. …Authors Mark Van Bebber and Paul S. Taylor have given us a strong argument for the literal account of creation days in Genesis.” John L. Mitchell, Th.D. — former Board Member of Dallas Theological Seminary; past President of Arizona College of the Bible; Pastor Emeritus of Bethany Bible Church, Phoenix, Arizona
It’s those sort of things that kill respect for students coming from confessional institutions.
I wouldn’t say that confessional institutions are glorified Sunday schools, nor would I say that secular insitutions are uniformly challenging and of high calibre, nevertheless there is a significant and remaining difference.
William Lane Craig, in a speech he gave in Europe, described how secularists often view evangelicals: ” For the secular person you may as well tell him to believe in fairies or leprechauns as in Jesus Christ! Or, to give a more realistic illustration, it is like a devotee of the Hare Krishna movement approaching you on the street and inviting you to believe in Krishna. Such an invitation strikes us as bizarre, freakish, even amusing. But to a person on the streets of Bombay, such an invitation would, I assume, appear quite reasonable and cause for reflection. I fear that evangelicals appear almost as weird to persons on the streets of Bonn, Stockholm, or Paris as do the devotees of Krishna.”
Craig went on to discuss how necessary, but currently lacking, it was for evangelicals to meet secular scholars on their own turf: “False ideas are the greatest obstacles to the reception of the gospel. We may preach with all the fervor of a reformer and yet succeed only in winning a straggler here and there, if we permit the whole collective thought of the nation to be controlled by…
CD-Host on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:35 pm #
Bryan #180 –
In looking at your dialogue neither one of them is drawing conclusions based on evidence. There isn’t enough evidence for either Sam or Ben’s conclusions. The most that can be said is that the existence of an idol is fully consistent with both the evolution of religion theory and the biblical’s description of the popular religion.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:42 pm #
CD,
That’s my point. When it comes to historical past events one uses evidence to support his or her theory of the past. There is no such thing as a purely evidence based theory. The only conclusion one can come to is that there is a statue found, the characteristics of that statue, in what strata it was found, in what sort of area, etc. Once someone places a theory to the evidence, that theory is going to be in accord with their presuppositions and ultimate beliefs.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:51 pm #
Vinny,
“When an evangelical Christian’s car acts up or he wakes up feeling under the weather, most will look for a natural explanation of the phenomenon without ever considering the possibility that an angel or demon is at work.”
This is a caricature. I don’t know of any academic evangelicals who look to demons as the source of their car breaking down. Christians look to both physical and metaphysical explanations for something in their lives, not just to physical. The immediate problem may be with the mechanics of the car, so the Christian pursues that; but he may also include a layer of meaning to the event that a philosophic naturalist would not. This is the difference that should not matter, frankly, because both are looking at physical evidence and can see an immediate source for the event. The evangelical, however, often sees these events as supernaturally meaningful as well. It is the latter that does not need to be discussed in a classroom.
So to answer Sue’s question as to whether an evangelical would be able to keep silent on his beliefs about women’s roles and homosexuality, Yes, I would, because whether I believe something “extra” when compared to the philosophic naturalist, my analysis of what Paul believed on the subject would be based on the physical text, in its historical-grammatical context. The university should be concerned with that analysis, not what its students believe about the subject.
#John1453 on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:52 pm #
Re comment 269 and response to my comment about parking.
I totally agree that there are many very well qualified and also demanding profs at confessional schools. I was taught by a couple of such myself. I also agree that my personal experience is anecdotal in relation to the specific schools I went to. However, from what I’ve read over the years, and my discussions with others has led me to conclude that my experience was and is not unique. Confessional institutions do get more students, at least in the first two years of undergrad, who are not there to pursue a career or to pursue learning, in comparison to secular schools. Kudos to DTS if it keeps standards high despite such students.
Moreover, I’m not alone in have such ideas about the weakness of evangelical and fundamentalist higher education.
Further to my above quote of WL Craig, he went on to say, “So what, we may ask, are European evangelicals doing to win this scholarly debate and so change the university? Well, frankly, the answer must be: very little, indeed. With the notable exception of Great Britain and to a lesser extent Germany, Europe has produced few, distinguished evangelical scholars. What evangelical scholars there are tend to be big fish in a very small pond. Their influence extends very little beyond the evangelical subculture. They teach for the most part at evangelical Bible schools and seminaries instead of the universities; they tend to publish with evangelical presses, so that their works remain largely unread by non-evangelical scholars; and instead of participating in the standard professional societies, they shun these in favor of evangelical conferences. As a result, their light is put under a bushel, they have little leavening effect for the sake of the Gospel in their professional fields, and the deadening effect of secularism on the culture at large goes unchecked.
We desperately need in Europe evangelical scholars who can compete with secular scholars on their own terms of scholarship. Charles Malik, the former Lebanese ambassador to the United States, in his address at the inauguration of the Billy Graham center at Wheaton College, warned American Christians of the danger of anti-intellectualism. He asked pointedly,
Who among evangelicals can stand up to the great secular scholars on their own terms of scholarship? Who among evangelical scholars is quoted as a normative source by the greatest secular authorities on history or philosophy or psychology or sociology or politics? Does the evangelical mode of thinking have the slightest chance of becoming the dominant mode in the great universities of Europe and America that stamp our entire civilization with their spirit and ideas?”
The liberal bias identified by Wallace (and others on this thread) is an obstacle to evangelicals achieving the kind of necessary changes identified by Craig and Malik.
regards,
#John
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:57 pm #
Hi Luke,
Yes, you make a good point. While I’m mostly defending the so-called bias of the Universities, my own experience was positive. A few people did say to me, “in all honesty we don’t know what your grades from DTS mean, but we’ll do our best to judge you on your writing sample,” and the like, and I didn’t get in everywhere (including some master’s programs!).
I’m also of course not arguing that DTS students should never be admitted to any great PhD programs. I’m merely saying I understand when they aren’t. Fully-funded PhD positions are extremely competitive, and we have several things going against us, and those things aren’t just a “fundamentalist liberal bias,” but real concerns about the fit of the student with the program. Sure, DTS students realize they want something else all the time, but that doesn’t change the fact that we went to DTS. Can we in reality get a good education? Of course! But hey, PhD positions come down to a 50 people for three slots, and 30 of those people are outstanding. If they’re looking at a Princeton grad and a DTS grad and they have similar quality writing samples and similar GRE scores similar GPAs and courses in the field, I wouldn’t blame them if they choose the Princeton grad and not the DTS grad. The DTS guy might be the cream of the crop, she might not. Would you find fault with them? Keep in mind – while there are plenty of us who change our mind about things in Seminary, there are more who don’t, and another subset of those who think they have but they really haven’t (I have heard some bizarre if earnest appeals to Professors from Evangelicals that show a fundamental misunderstanding of the professor’s interests and the way the professor conceives of the field). It’s not the Universities’ fault that we chose to go to conservative institutions, and they’re not obligated to treat our institutions as other than they are just because we changed our minds halfway through. Universities don’t view confessional schools as part of the system! “The system” is not a single system at all in their minds, and like I said, while many do realize that Evangelical grads can be good and accept them, those who are shy of grads have reason to be – and they usually have plenty of student options graduating from more similar programs.
My comment on languages and the Chicago statement were based on personal experience. A friend of mine asked what DTS meant by “inerrancy” before he signed it and he was referred to the Chicago statement. He refused to sign it and did not take his degree. Of course most students don’t ask. Your standard MDiv grad at University is not getting the language skill of your standard ThM grad at DTS. Languages are commonly not even required at Div School programs. However, those who do take the languages often get a better education in them. At my school this is certainty – without a doubt! – the case…
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:02 pm #
CSC,
My concern was not whether I got into a program. I realize that there is a massive amount of competition. My concern was that the attitude and comments I received, having come from evangelical schools, let me know that I was not going to be considered in the first place.
I realize that some students from these schools do “make it”; but there is usually a special circumstance in those cases.
As for me, my language ability was not in question. My thesis translated numerous texts from Sumerian, Akkadian, Ugaritic, Egyptian, and Hebrew. I also taught Hebrew as a teaching fellow. In addition, I took four years of graduate course work instead of the one year that was required for my M.A. This does not guarantee admission into a school, but it at least ought to guarantee consideration.
Evangelicals want to go to the university because seminaries and Bible colleges have decided that those degrees are more prestigious and lift the school’s status to some degree. They also want the rigorous study that comes from attending the university; and most want the challenge of learning from others with opposing philosophical viewpoints. The British universities are a good alternative, but as you noted, they are more research degrees and they require more money in your pocket than most evangelicals may be able to spare. So for the evangelical scholar who wants to write and teach in an upper level academic setting, the university is the best option.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:10 pm #
CSC,
I think you also hit on an area that is important in that there is a confusion on both sides concerning the issue of inerrancy. Inerrancy does not include in my mind the rejection of higher critical methodologies. It rejects the philosophic naturalism that often fueled them. That is a big difference. I don’t know about the Chicago statement. I haven’t read it; but my definition of inerrancy does not include the need to reject any methodological tool wielded by a secular prof. I just wouldn’t approach metaphysical questions the way that he does.
#John1453 on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:14 pm #
I do believe that many confessional schools have top-notch demanding instructors and produce top notch students that are as good or better academically and intellectually than those produced at secular institutions. And I do sympathize with their frustration at the lack of respect and obstacles that they face from such institutions and from scholars/profs from those institutions.
But I still sit here and think, “so what?” If one’s career and other aspirations require recognition and respect from secular institutions, why not just go there in the first place? And why should confessional institutions change their raison d’etre just because a few students want to go from Master’s level work at the confessional institution to PhD work at a secular institution? Moreover, it’s not like the students or the profs need the credibility and respect of a secular institution in order to effectively and with credibility address the home crowd. In fact a secular degree might be an obstacle (or even any degree at all, given that Benny Hinn (sp?) is a multimillion dollar success among the unwashed masses).
If evangelicals want to make a scholarly impact, why are they not doing it on the secular home turf from the get go rather than doing a Rodney Dangerfield impression.
WL Craig, challenged his listeners in Europe to engagement, and by way of example he quoted from an article in the journal Philo that complained about God believers invading the university:
“By the second half of the twentieth century, universities . . . had been become in the main secularized. The standard. . . position in each field. . . assumed or involved arguments for a naturalist world-view; departments of theology or religion aimed to understand the meaning and origins of religious writings, not to develop arguments against naturalism. Analytic philosophers . . . treated theism as an anti-realist or non-cognitivist world-view, requiring the reality, not of a deity, but merely of emotive expressions or certain ‘forms of life’. . . .
This is not to say that none of the scholars in the various academic fields were [sic] realist theists in their ‘private lives’; but realist theists, for the most part, excluded their theism from their publications and teaching, in large part because theism . . . was mainly considered to have such a low epistemic status that it did not meet the standards of an ‘academically respectable’ position to hold. The secularization of mainstream academia began to quickly unravel upon the publication of Plantinga’s influential book, God and Other Minds, in 1967. It became apparent to the philosophical profession that this book displayed that realist theists were not outmatched by naturalists in terms of the most valued standards of analytic philosophy: conceptual precision, rigor of argumentation, technical erudition, and an in-depth defense of an original world-view. This book, followed seven years later by Plantinga’s even more…
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:14 pm #
…I speak as someone who took many, many language classes at DTS and graded for many (both Hebrew and Greek) as well. After four years of Hebrew I took intermediate Hebrew at my University and it completely rocked my world. A person with two years of Hebrew from my school will be light years ahead of your standard DTS ThM grad, and very far ahead of even the cream of the DTS crop (if I am a good example of the cream of the DTS crop). If you are in the MA/MDiv here for NT, you will be trained in Classical Greek by some of the top Classicists in the world. You’ll also take Latin. Koine will be merely one of the Greek dialects you have mastered.
When you apply to PhD schools, you’re applying against people who have taken advantage of the superior language programs at the University Div Schools they’re at. We can pat ourselves on the back for requiring lots of Greek – DTS requires more than most schools – but believe me, I graded Greek and Hebrew exegesis at DTS, and a large percentage of people going through that program are not in the same stratosphere as people studying languages at top-tier Universities. So ok, you’re the cream of the crop, you can compete with the people at the top-tier Universities, but they have a smaller, much more consistently amazing crop from their language classes than does DTS.
In the Hebrew classes I take with Div school students at my school, we are required to prepare a chapter of Hebrew each class session. We must come ready to discuss arguments from Rashi to last month’s JBL, obscure grammar details, text critical issues, as well as rigorous application of critical method (which we don’t do much at DTS, especially in OT). One must be ready to read the Hebrew out loud, translate it, and answer any question about any of these topics at any time, and notes are forbidden. A cream-of-the-crop DTS student would have no problem with this, and would probably love it. You couldn’t run an exegetical class this way at DTS though – or at least people don’t – because too many people couldn’t do it. EVERY MDiv student taking languages in my school can do this consistently, and let me tell you, plenty of them after three years are much more advanced in their language ability – including historical linguistics – than I was upon graduating from DTS. DTS does some aspects of language as well as anyone – particularly interpretive aspects – but this idea that University/Div school students don’t get good language training is a myth, at least in my experience at this one school, and in my conversing with people at Chicago Div, Yale Div, Harvard Div, PTS, UCLA etc.
The reason I paint such a dire picture is this: having come from there and arriving here, I feel like I got lucky! I look at people applying to programs, I know how many people apply, and I while I’m thrilled every time a University professor DOES take a DTS grad seriously and take them in, and I understand when they don’t.
Heidi on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:18 pm #
Can a distinction be maintained between excavation of truth in terms of a text (using methods from comparative sociology/anthropology, poetics, linguistics, and other methods) and claims of representations of “God’s truth”? One is an academic/scholarly work, the other is a claim to authority.
Vinny on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:21 pm #
Michael,
I certainly don’t want to be saying that.
I would prefer to say it this way. I think that supernatural explanations are unhelpful and unnecessary in the overwhelming majority of cases. I have reached this conclusion based on everything I know and all that I have experienced. I have tried to think through the issues as thoroughly as I can. If I were to revisit the issue de novo based on some new study or circumstance, my new analysis would be based on everything I previously knew and everything I have experienced plus the new circumstance. All I can say is that the new study or circumstance would have to be a real humdinger in either quality or quantity for me to imagine that I am likely to reach a different conclusion. If I were to undertake a new study, I would not presuppose that supernatural explanations are unhelpful and unnecessary, but the study would include all the knowledge and evidence that previously led me to that conclusion.
I frequently get the question “What would it take to convince you of the truth of Christianity, the Bible, the resurrection, etc.” I always find this very difficult to answer because I cannot imagine what fact would change the total mix of data upon which my conclusions are based.
Nick,
I have understood the discussion up until now to be about the perspective the reader brings to his interpretation and I don’t think that he could bring a perspective that depends on what he finds within the writing. I don’t think that precludes the possibility that the two writings could provide such observational data although I am not sure what it would be.
If I were to read letters from two different Founding Fathers about the Constitution that expressed seeming contradictory opinions about the meaning of a particular clause, I would likely conclude that they had different understandings of what was intended. I don’t know what there could be in the writings that would lead me to seek some sort of harmonization based on the idea of a superior mind expressing a single unified conception through both writers.
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:22 pm #
Bryan,
I am very surprised given your circumstances that you weren’t considered. I know many people, including myself, who have gotten into top-tier PhD programs in NELC with less. I should say that I’m making general statements, that in your case perhaps the institution does indeed have a deep-seated ideological issue that blinds them to your work and potential. I would not be surprised at all if these things happened. I don’t think it’s necessarily characteristic of the entire American University System.
Doc B on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:27 pm #
Dan,
I’m not sure how you can call someone as closed-minded as these a “world-class scholar”.
Knowing a bunch of stuff does not a scholar make. A closed-minded liberal is no different than a closed-minded fundamentalist…just has a different set of facts or a different worldview (or both).
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:28 pm #
Vinny,
“I think that supernatural explanations are unhelpful and unnecessary in the overwhelming majority of cases.”
I would most certainly agree with that, but it does not solve the issue of presuppositions, both yours and mine. Point being that we both have presuppositions and the myth of a white coat scientist approach to anything has, in my opinion, been thoroughly discredited.
The main point is whether your presuppositions can be admitted to, coherently applied, and reasonably justified. I think that most liberals have the second, but not the first or the third.
If this is the case, there is certainly no reason to prejudice the system.
Mark A. Howell on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:34 pm #
Edward, your logic should tell you that both the conservative and liberals positions make assertions of truth based on presuppositions. Truth claims are also by nature exclusive. If in fact Christ rose from the dead, then the methodology which is ipso-facto anti-supernatural is going to be the weaker system in regards to explanatory power. If there are events which correspond to reality, then your preference for that which is “open to a vast range of possibilities.” is neither the most logical, nor preferable.
#John1453 on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:43 pm #
re changing the liberal bias
WL Craig’s prescription for changing the liberal bias includes:
“The point is that the task of desecularization is not hopeless or impossible, nor need significant changes take as long to achieve as one might think. It is this sort of Christian scholarship which represents the best hope for the transformation of culture that Malik and Machen envisioned, and its true impact for the cause of Christ will only be felt in the next generation, as it filters down into popular culture.
I have said all this concerning the challenge that confronts us. What advice, then, might I give to those whom God has burdened with the awesome task of becoming Christian apologists in Europe? Let me be very practical. . . .
It will not be easy. The power structures at European universities are often deeply anti-Christian. Students who are evangelical Christians will be weeded out by denying them degrees or professorships. There will be, and already have been, victims of anti-Christian discrimination in the process. Such fallen brethren are truly intellectual martyrs for the cause of Christ, and my heart breaks for them. But over time, more and more of us will successfully get through. In the United States, graduate programs in philosophy are awash with Christian students gradually working their way up through the system. As the old guard dies off and young Christian philosophers are hired in their places, the face of the university will change. What Thomas Kuhn said of scientific revolutions is also true of Christian revolutions: they proceed one funeral at a time. It can happen in Europe, too. Be patient. Be persistent. Be prayerful. Change will come.”
These sort of comments (and Craig is not the only one to write such things) reinforce my belief that at the present time the route to go is not from confessional school to secular school (at least not after an undergraduate degree) but within the secular system. Then the system can be changed from within as it has been in philosophy.
I think that the bias in secular institutions is defensible to a degree, and so with all due respect to DTS grads, I have to wonder what they were thinking and what their profs advised. There is no justification for sticking around at DTS (or a similar institution) beyond an undergrad if one wants to go to get a PhD from a secular institution.
regards,
#John
Dale on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:46 pm #
If I were to read letters from two different Founding Fathers about the Constitution that expressed seeming contradictory opinions about the meaning of a particular clause, I would likely conclude that they had different understandings of what was intended. I don’t know what there could be in the writings that would lead me to seek some sort of harmonization based on the idea of a superior mind expressing a single unified conception through both writers.
However, if you had a belief that there was an overarching idea that did harmonize these seeming contraditions then you might dig deeper into the philosophical underpinnings of their beliefs. It could be that both are basing there opinions on some Lockean philosophy which supports both opinions but are not readily connectable at the level which the founders opined. I think this is one of the advantages of considering harmony in the scriptures. Not every apparent contradiction will lead to a new discovery but the secular theologian might not even attempt to find it.
The secular theologican needs to make sure his worldview doesn’t encourage him to dismiss the possible harmonizations. Likewise, the evangelical theologian needs to make sure that his worldview doesn’t encourage him to find harmonizations that don’t really exist.
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:46 pm #
This idea of academic agnosticism being a prereq for entering universities is somewhat bizarre, especially in a post-modern society, is it not.
“If your convictions are too strong, they will necessarily sway the evidence.” I agree that they can and often (mostly) do, but where is the line drawn and who determines who draws it.
For example, let us censor all of these:
1. Graduates of DTS, Trinity, Gorden-Conwell, Fuller, Talbot, and Denver. Why? Because they have evangelical beliefs that they bring to the table.
2. Graduates of the University of Berkley. Why? Because they have (what many consider to be) radical left-winged commitments that they bring to the table.
3. Atheists. Why? Because they presuppose that there is not a God and therefore will interpret the evidence in light of such a supposition.
4. Theists. Why? Because they will see everything through a theistic paradigm.
However, 1 and 4 are much more likely to be censored than 2 and 3.
The idea that only certain worldviews, hermeneutical commitments, doctrinal convictions, and presuppositions are allowed is what seems to be the case. But the thing that is very troublesome is that this is being done while claiming to be non-confessional.
I would not mind if these schools simply established a bias and a creed and followed by it. If they did, an Evangelical would be as likely to seek an education there as an atheist would from DTS. There is simply no reason to.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:47 pm #
Heidi,
Yes, I think there is a distinction there. The former ought to be the focus of the university without delving into what a student believes. Otherwise, we’re dealing with discrimination based on religion.
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:48 pm #
To answer the question that many are asking: “Why do Evangelicals care about being accepted into a secular school?” I would offer the following:
1. “Secular” is not a creed. (or it should not be).
2. “University” by its nature promotes unity and diversity.
3. We don’t seek to give up the culture, whether this be in politics or education (i.e. we are not separatists).
4. We believe that the Evangelical commitments are persuasive and offer the best representation of the truth, why would we want to hide it? (After all, we are “evangelical”).
5. Because the university, like it or not, still hold more prestige to the outside world than do confessional school. Therefore, it offers more opportunities.
6. The university is part of the an American heritage of which we are a part.
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:53 pm #
Bryan,
Above you said that you presuppose a coherency to the texts. What do you mean by that? What if your close reading of the textual data leads you to believe that one part of the Pent directly contradicts the other, and that the author of part B would be seriously unhappy to be included in the canon with part A? What if you come to the conclusion that something described as a miracle in the Bible most likely did not take place historically, not because you’ve ruled out the supernatural, but because the way it’s described leads you to believe that in a particular case the Bible has creatively appropriated a common-stock myth? However you define inerrancy, it generally has to mean that the Bible is “without error” or contradiction, no? How would you handle these data with your starting supposition that the text is coherent – what do you mean by “coherent?”
I’m curious about this, because explaining inerrancy away to a belief in supernaturalism vs. philosophical naturalism seems to be exactly that – explaining it away. A belief in supernaturalism and the truth-claims of scripture doesn’t need the term “inerrant,” does it?
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:57 pm #
An important point was made awhile ago and missed, I think, to some degree. The university has a problem with evangelicals specifically, not supernaturalists in general. They have a problem with evangelical/historic Christianity’s supernaturalism.
Case in point: Muslims are not discriminated against when applying for a PhD in Islamic Studies based on whether they believe the Koran to be true. Most Muslims do believe it is true, and in an inerrant manner at that. Why is that evangelicals are discriminated against because of their belief that the Bible is true? It’s not because they approach the text absent of higher critical methods, languages, historical context, anthropological considerations, etc. What evangelical academic is going to write a paper on the Hebrew synoptics, using all of these to analyze the text, and then include a one liner at the end that says “and I believe it’s true too”? You can believe in all sorts of supernatural and non-empirical entities (doesn’t Dawkins believe in aliens?). The issue is orthodox Christianity. If you’re a Gnostic, feel free to apply.
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:02 pm #
Historically, Evangelicals are the ones with whom Universities have had the longstanding feud. We initially rejected their critical methods outright, called them all heretics, and started the Fundamentalist and Bible school movements – DTS’s heritage. At our schools we teach our students that critical methods are passe and wrong – particularly in the Hebrew Bible. Society-wide, the strongest anti-intellectual populist influence in America is Evangelical. They didn’t come up with these feelings out of thin air.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:04 pm #
CSC,
Inerrancy doesn’t have to include the idea of literalistic readings of the text. I can conclude that Jonah is an historical fact or that it functions like a parable. This has nothing to do with inerrancy. Also, contradiction is, I believe, a canonical issue, not an immediate textual one. If James says that faith and works is required for justification and Paul says that only faith is required, it may be that those two are in conflict; but my larger presupposition that God ultimately brings the canon together to speak in unity, allows me to see Paul and James in complementation even though it may be that they disagreed with one another (I don’t believe this to be the case, but this is just an example).
In short, inerrancy has to do with what is being taught, not what means through which that teaching comes about. The genre question (i.e., whether something is historical narrative or theological presentation or a mixture of both) is irrelevant to the question of inerrancy. The problem is that there is no one definition of inerrancy, so many confuse a fundamentalist-literalistic reading of the text with inerrancy itself.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:09 pm #
CSC,
But this is true of Muslims as well. I mean, it’s not like evangelicals blew up a skyscraper in NY. I see no reason why a Muslim would not be seen as equally irrational as an evangelical, except for the fact that liberals and atheists are usually people who have an actual hatred for evangelicals, having had bad experiences with that particular group on a personal level.
#John1453 on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:09 pm #
The problem is not that evangelicals cannot get into secular schools (if they couldn’t that would be illegal religious discrimination). The problem is that evangelicals with graduate degrees from evangelical or fundamentalist institutions cannot use those degrees as a means of getting into secular PhD programs and, in addition, find that those degrees are held against them.
For the various reasons mentioned in some of the comments, I would agree that there is justification for treating evangelical degrees thusly. The fact that a well regarded book can be written with the title “the closing of the evangelical mind” speaks volumes about the impression that secular institutions have of evangelical ones.
However, all that does not pose an obstacle to an evangelical getting a PhD. Go to a secular institution for your masters and stop whinging. Or, if the undergrad was not fully recognized, transfer some credits and get a new undergrad (I did that). So profs at secular institutions don’t recognize your degree or it’s a conversation stopper. Get over it. If you want their degree on their home turf you gotta play by their rules.
Uinversities do have a pretty clear creed, and in that creed “non-fessional” means no belief or pre-commitment to inerrancy and a skeptical approach to the supernatural.
regards,
#John
Heidi on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:10 pm #
It seems that perhaps some of the problem here is that it seems a little bit difficult for evangelicals to keep these as separate and distinct.
To me, they can better come together in theology (words about God) than in biblical literature (the study of a wide range of genre texts containing words concerning God and other topics as understood by some groups of ancient people).
A confessional reading – based on a particular theologies and rejecting others – isn’t based on the texts at all, but on particular histories of interpretations of those texts in the interests of particular communities of belief. Christians aren’t monolithic, after all.
When I hear the believer/unbeliever talk, I can never forget the word “infidel,” which expresses what is meant much more accurately. In academe, why would anyone be expected to receive admiration for ad hominem attacks? Does the attacking bulldog feel persecuted because he’s not being given biscuits by the person he’s biting?
You can disagree with someone’s religious beliefs and still work with them on scholarly projects in a non-seminarian university setting. And isn’t that really the purpose of such communities as the SBL?
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:13 pm #
Bryan,
The thing is that’s not what inerrancy was all about from its beginning, and so we’re nuancing it, and that’s great, but I fail to see how that’s different than inspiration, authority, and canon. Also, I’m not asking about genre – I’m saying what if you decide something described as a historical miracle is unlikely to have happened, and not because it’s a theological presentation or a parable. We can finesse away such instances by reference to genre, but that in itself is a theological move spurred on by inerrancy, isn’t it?
Vinny on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:14 pm #
Michael,
It occurs to me that the white coat scientist is the presupposition that matters. Whether he is mythological or not, he remains the model and the ideal for the secular university. This model assumes that academic methodologies calculated to achieve objective scholarship are not negated by the presuppositions of individual scholars. Evangelicals, on the other hand, would prefer a model in which presuppositions are accepted as an irreducible element in all scholarship and attempts to overcome presuppositions are deemed intolerance.
Would I have gotten a prize for the 300th post?
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:17 pm #
Bryan,
The whole history of the research University is tied up in relation to Evangelicalism, and not to Islam. The social dynamics governing modern Islamic departments are entirely different, and the social dynamics are important in understanding the situation – it’s not merely a matter of logic. We have an academic history with these institutions in a very different way than the Muslims, and the types of people teaching Islam at schools are also very different. It’s not the University in the Abstract, but the specific departments, the type of scholarship these departments do, and the history of specific departments with their religious traditions.
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:21 pm #
BTW, Bryan, I find the reference to the towers distasteful – that has next to nothing to do with the social issue of Muslims and the University vs. Evangelicals and the University. Muslims who are doing work at Universities are not and should not be viewed through the lens of 9/11. The negative history of Evangelicals and the Universities is real and specific to Evangelicals and the Universities, not some isolated incident wrapped up in political events worldwide.
Dee Adams on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:23 pm #
Michael – where have you been living lately?
1. “Secular” is not a creed. (or it should not be).
– Yes it is and the first tenant is that the Bible is a bunch of stories knitted together about people that never existed in a place that no one really believes was ordered and ordain by the Almighty himself as His place on a planet He created – if they even believe in the HE they need to keep quiet about that.
2. “University” by its nature promotes unity and diversity.
– May I refer you to Climate-gate. University is all about the money and grants and sponsorships and endowments and endowments for Chairs. Which translates into “avoid anyone that might say anything that will make the money go elsewhere.”
3. We don’t seek to give up the culture, whether this be in politics or education (i.e. we are not separatists).
– Ummm, yes you do and yes you are.
4. We believe that the Evangelical commitments are persuasive and offer the best representation of the truth, why would we want to hide it? (After all, we are “evangelical”).
– The issue is “persuasive”; maybe we don’t want to be persuaded to the best representation of the/your truth. And the point of being a student at a university is to learn what they are teaching not to go there and teach them your best representation of the truth. In short, your reputation precedes you and not in a good way.
5. Because the university, like it or not, still hold more prestige to the outside world than do confessional school. Therefore, it offers more opportunities.
– Yes, but what price is one willing to pay for those opportunities. In short are you willing to shut up about your beliefs in order to be in the program? I think DTS would ask much more from an atheist wanting admittance.
6. The university is part of the American heritage of which we are a part.
– Totally true in a romantic sort of way. Reality; not so much. The vast majority of people evangelical or not never make it to Associate or Bachelor level let alone Master and Doctorate or Dan’s super important only one in ten level or his doubly super important self-imposed job of getting all these old documents into digital media.
Heidi on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:29 pm #
The archetypal figure of the white-coated scientist is actually out of date. Even scientific discourse is metaphorical. And… of course there have been some developments in theory and criticism in the last 50 or so years…
Dale on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:32 pm #
I would like to add to my post at 287 that I think almost all scholars seek to harmonize the text at some level.
The evangelical views Christian scriptures as existing in a theistic realm in which one God has created the world and revealed himself to man. The Bible is the only book that needs to be harmonized withing itself.
The unitarian, for example, may believe that the Christian scriptures sit within a deistic framework but also believe that the Koran, the Book of Mormon, etc. do as well. They are seeking to harmonize the Bible with these other books in an effort to understand the higher power they believe in.
The atheist believes that the Christian scriptures sit in a materialistic, determinisitic milieu. They look at how religious beliefs have evolved and the Christian scriptures are, along with other religious texts, and texts that have nothing to do with religion, are evidence of this. The commonalities point to how man creates belief structures in societies.
The main difference between these scholars is what worldview they are bringing with them.
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:32 pm #
Ha Vinny I love your post 299.
I led a discussion session for the incoming College students at the beginning of this quarter. One of the articles we read detailed the history of the University as a German-style research institution, and its role in the triumph of science over dogmatism. It was interesting to read about the 1890s-1930s from the perspective of a University president – a heroic tale in the opposite sense of the same tale I heard at Bible school and DTS. Universities view themselves as a triumph of science over dogma, and biblical studies departments view themselves as a triumph of historical criticism over Evangelical literalism. And hey, we’re trying to get in – they must be right!
CD-Host on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:37 pm #
No actually they are. Secular Jewish studies departments are not friendly to Orthodox or Hasidic Jews who use religious paradigms for similar reasons. Any Muslim who attempted to argue the Koran as indisputable fact based on direct revelation from Gabriel would have a similar problem.
Glenn Shrom on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:38 pm #
This has been an interesting read-through, and I’m not quite done yet. Two quick comments along the way…
Does someone really think that the King James translation was carried out by Christians? I always thought it was mostly secular scholars who knew the languages. I could be wrong.
I would say that a true Christian must be convinced that the resurrection of Jesus was an actual event. There is a statement that some of these people don’t believe that Jesus paid for our sins – which I must admit that as I was reading I simply understood this to mean a belief in the atonement. Thus it was interesting later on to be reminded that someone can be a Christian who believes in the atonement, without believing that the atonement is an equivalent of Jesus paying for our sins.
Phm16 on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:42 pm #
Hello all,
Loving the thread (though its length should make us believers in eternity if we were not already!) Anyways, forgive me if what I am about to ask was addressed in one of the last 249 posts…but here it goes…
Is it possible that credible, evangelical practicioners of HC who on the one hand desire respect from the secular and/or non-confessional institutions also treat those they label as ‘fundamentalist’ with the same ire by which they are treated by the ‘liberals’?
Scraping for an example…okay: if in the name of open-minded evangelicalism I do not take seriously someone who believes in something like literary independence (because it’s “too divine” to think that or “too dinosaur”), should I be surprised that someone on the liberal end of the spectrum would treat me with the same attitude with which I treated the one who was fundamental?
Finally finding my point (I think), it appears to me that we all find ourselves somewhere on this spectrum: some community is too good for my own archaic beliefs (real, perceived, labeled, or what have you) and in the same breath, my own community is too good for another’s real or perceived archaic presuppositions. I wonder how this plays into argument of equal treatment. Thus, if I went through the HC method honestly, and still came away with a position such as, say, literary independence as my conclusion to the synoptic “problem”, would my diligent work still be accepted, or would I be labeled and typecast in much the same way within my own evangelical community as those very evangelicals who are pursuing education in the secular realm are being typecast?
Glenn Shrom on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:44 pm #
If you don’t know what I am referring to, see for instance Robin Collins’ (Messiah College) thoughts on the subject. I was looking at posts 23, 24, 27, 236, 253 (find key words “atonement” and “paid”). There is a view that says that Christ is a substitutionary atonement, that he died for our sins, while rejecting the view that he “paid” for our sins, basically arguing that there was never really a “price” to pay.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:47 pm #
CSC,
I’m looking at the historic Church’s view of the Bible in order to get my view of inerrancy, not some fundamentalists in the 19th Cent., so No, it’s not a manipulation of the term.
Here is where presupps play a part, of course. You’re essentially asking me about a miracle that is in a piece of literature that never reports to be solely historical, and then asking me what I would do if it was meant to be solely historical and then concluded that a miracle did not take place.
First, I don’t know what criteria I would use to reject that a miracle took place. I wasn’t there, and must either believe or disbelieve the report. It is a matter of belief then, not empirical determination. As it is a matter of belief for those who accept it, it is equally a matter of disbelief on the part of those who reject it. That belief goes hand in hand with whatever ultimate beliefs one holds. So, to me, this is simply a matter of whether I would change my ultimate beliefs. I don’t believe such decisions are made apart from those beliefs.
Your comment reminds me a bit of what an atheist friend of mine said to me about my interpretation of the serpent in Gen 3. I interpret the serpent to be the chaos agent in ancient Near Eastern thought (coupled with wisdom symbolism), not as a literal serpent. He, of course, wants to show me that the Bible is absurd, so he wants to interpret that as a literal talking snake. I have no problem with any of the multiple interpretations of that text within my belief system, so ironically, I’m open to any of those options. He, however, is committed to seeing it literalistically because this, so he seems to think, supports his preconceptions/conclusions more than my view. So to him, I’m just conveniently explaining these things away. To me, I’m honestly looking at the data in its ancient Near Eastern and literary context. Does it fit my beliefs about the larger canon and my presuppositions? Of course it does. But my views of the issue have changed within my belief system, so I do think that I am open to more possibilities than the secular scholar who wants to prove something by it.
So I would caution against presenting your opponent’s interpretations as catering to their presupps as though everyone didn’t have them. My point is only that my beliefs allow for both the literalistic interpretation and the more non-literal, so the question is essentially asking me if I believed the earth was round what if I analyzed it and came to the conclusion that the earth was flat. Based on report, I don’t believe the earth is flat, so how exactly would I come to that conclusion based on empirical study?
Edward T. Babinski on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:50 pm #
DAN WROTE:
Cambridge University, Oxford University, Tübingen University, Durham, Edinburgh, Duke, Manchester, St Andrews, Aberdeen, etc. have conservative Christians in the faculty of their religion departments. Well respected faculty, too. And Princeton Seminary, though not a university, had Bruce Metzger for 46 years.
TO WHICH I REPLY: Bruce Metzger was at Princeton, and an Evangelical, but he was not an INERRANTIST. Therefore one of the world’s leaders in textual criticism was not an INERRANTIST. (DTS says all students and faculty must be INERRANTISTS.)
Conservative Christians in the 1920s found Princeton unacceptable so they founded Westminster Seminary led by a professor who hated “modernism” and quit Princeton at that time, Machen. Westminster’s dream was to keep a staff purely of inerrantists.
Today Westminster is having difficulties keeping scholarly questions at bay, what with Peter Enns and his book INSPIRATION AND INCARNATION, that led to a hearing being held to examine his views for possible heresy, and a fairly high percentage of professors supporting him and all the questions he raised in his book, contra the admistration’s wishes to thoroughly vet his beliefs. Which proves that even when you found your own seminary in the 1920s in reaction to Princeton’s creeping modernism, that was not enough to keep the questions at bay and being asked even at Westminster Seminary. Westminster alum, Paul Seely, and his articles in Westminster’s theological journal have also raised plenty of questions, such that Westminster is beginning to catch up to where Princeton was in the 1920s.
Harvard was founded as a conservative seminary, but then Yale was founded due to the “theological excesses” of Harvard.
Check out what the oldest European universities taught concerning the historical study of the Bible 200 years ago, 100 years ago, and today. Catholic universities finally opened up to the historical study of the Bible around the late 1800s, though the church at first forbade the publication of such works by leading priest-scholars.
200 years after Calvin had founded his college, its president was for all intents and purposes a deist who didn’t even believe in Satan.
You are right that there are some conservative Christian scholars in religious academia at prestigious universities. The key word is “some.” And such academics, such as N.T. Wright refuse to declare themselves “inerrantists.” Wright also admittted concerning the study of the Christ of faith in light of the study of the historical Jesus that…
Studying Jesus has been the occasion for huge upheavals in my personal life, my spirituality, my theology, and my psyche Let me put it like this. After fifteen years of serious historical Jesus study, I still say the creed ex animo; but I now mean something very different by it, not least by the word “god” itself. The portrait has been redrawn.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:53 pm #
CSC,
“BTW, Bryan, I find the reference to the towers distasteful – that has next to nothing to do with the social issue of Muslims and the University vs. Evangelicals and the University. Muslims who are doing work at Universities are not and should not be viewed through the lens of 9/11. The negative history of Evangelicals and the Universities is real and specific to Evangelicals and the Universities, not some isolated incident wrapped up in political events worldwide.”
I completely reject this statement. It’s all political. The issue has become worse in recent decades since the “moral majority” in republican politics. Evangelicals weren’t viewed the same fifty years ago, so your analysis of why the situation is as it is today is a bit off in my estimation.
Second, I don’t think my Muslim friends should be viewed through that lens either; but my point is that discrimination is taking place based on prejudices, not based on personal and individual data. So why is it not the same with Muslims? Because Muslims aren’t at the forefront against liberal politics. Evangelicals are. These events overlap. Your defense of Muslims should give you equal consideration to evangelicals who share a stigma based on their beliefs. That was my point.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:57 pm #
Vinny,
“It occurs to me that the white coat scientist is the presupposition that matters. Whether he is mythological or not, he remains the model and the ideal for the secular university. This model assumes that academic methodologies calculated to achieve objective scholarship are not negated by the presuppositions of individual scholars.”
So are you saying that universities hold an irrational belief that denies that presuppositional ultimate beliefs determine the conclusions of these scholars when dealing with historical and metaphysical theories? The university ought to get out of the dark ages of modernity and enter the postmodern era with the rest of us.
Kit on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:02 pm #
Hey friends – way to keep the discussion rolling!
@#John1453: in post 278 you say, “If evangelicals want to make a scholarly impact, why are they not doing it on the secular home turf from the get go.” Do I understand your perspective to say that universities are right now the mental property of liberal-fundamentalism? That sounds antithetical to the “unity in diversity” concept of the university – love to hear your perspective on this. Actually, I’ll throw in an @CSC on this, too, because of your (CSC’s) post at 305.
Bryan brought up the question I had earlier, and CD-Host helped answer it at 306: it seems that people who believe in the religion of study are disregarded in their studies of it due to their personal attachments to the material at hand. Would it be akin to forbidding a medical doctor from performing surgery on his own child because of the personal connection? or like keeping a medical student from working on a cadaver of someone s/he knew? or perhaps like how the military keeps commanding officers from having charge over a relative? I’m honestly not sure whether or not it’s ironic that those who would be most motivated to care about the subject at hand are the ones least desired to investigate it because of their personal involvement.
@Dee Adams: per your response to CMP in 302, WTF? (F for Friendly, of course … ?)
@CSC in 291: you have a couple of good “what ifs” in this post. I think that if the what ifs were true, the evangelical would have to make a decision: change his own beliefs, maintain beliefs and lie against the evidence, or keep his beliefs while admitting he has no answer for the evidence he’s found in hope that an answer might come about one day. Do you see any difference between those last two options?
@Vinny: How would you like to see a white-coat evangelical research chemist? I’m pretty closely related to one … In other news: sorry you missed 300. But at this rate, you won’t have to wait long until 400, so get ready!
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:02 pm #
CD,
Is it that you can’t present the evangelical view accurately because you don’t know it, or that you purposely want to present it this way?
NO ONE argues this way, and I have said it time and time again. If an assumption of ultimate coherence is to be rejected in the same category as someone asking Gabriel for personal information on a text then I don’t know what logical categories are anymore.
Second, Yes, Bible-believing people are equally rejected as applicants. My point is that a Muslim’s paper may not be accepted for such, but a Muslim would not be rejected as a student overall for believing that the Koran is true.
#John1453 on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:10 pm #
Re Dee at comment 302
I followed your comments with appreciation until your snippity wise-crack about Dan’s “self-imposed job”.
The job is important for historical reasons, reasons that exist even apart from one’s beliefs about whether the documents do credibly speak to a reality in which God exists. Sheesh. Lighten up a bit or you’ll just come across as bitter.
I do agree with CMP about not hiding evangelical convictions, but that is a different issue from using a confessional academic degree to get into a secular institution.
While I don’t believe it is necessary to by JW about one’s faith in the classroom (i.e., actively proselytizing in an offensive manner), I do think that it certainly leaves a bad taste in the mouths of others when a Christian deliberately hides what they believe. For example, a young-earth creationist received a doctoral degree in geoscience, and some scientists post-graduation demanded that his degree should be taken away from him. Marcus Ross got a Ph.D. with a dissertation about the abundance and spread of mosasaurs, marine reptiles that, as he wrote, vanished at the end of the Cretaceous era about 65 million years ago. Although his thesis advisor describes his work as “impeccable”, some have “argued that his religious beliefs should bar him from earning an advanced degree in paleontology”.
regards,
#John
CD-Host on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:12 pm #
Bryan –
Lets go back to my policemen analogy. There we see two theories which explain the evidence based on various presuppositions. The meta-issue, which can also be tested, is whether criminals or poltergeists are the more frequent cause of breaking and enterings. Ultimately though there is no way to make more than a probabilistic statement about the specific event, but…. the probabilistic statement is not based on randomness.
There really are high probability theories and low probability theories and those probabilities can be set and argued using public knowledge.
If A has impact B which is public then B should be detectable scientifically even if the person disbelieves in A.
For example lets take the effectiveness of prayer.
A theist will frequently attribute an event to prayer.
An atheist will discount that prayer has an effect on outcomes.
Independent studies have been done involving randomly selected events and prayer. If prayer was highly effective we would expect to see large statistical variations between populations of people prayed for and those who were not. Which leads to possible conclusions like:
a) prayer is not effective
b) only very specific types of prayer are effective
c) prayer only works on a small subset of the population
….
Heidi on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:22 pm #
“it seems that people who believe in the religion of study are disregarded in their studies of it due to their personal attachments to the material at hand.”
If that were true, I think it would be difficult for anyone to study anything. It’s important to be aware of your own attachments and to situate where you are speaking from. The problem occurs when some people *reject* strong readings of a text based only on a projection of particular community beliefs as universal truths stamped as such by God. While I don’t see any evidence that Dan does this (in fact, I’m only bothering with this because it would seem he’s one who really tries not to), I do see this theme coming up again and again in the comments.
I don’t actually know of any poll that has been taken on SBL members and their religious beliefs, but I suspect that this is more about squabbling *between* Christians who have different interpretations (not to mention that some Jews may have insights into the Hebrew Scriptures…) than it is a question about universities full of christian-hating atheists or something like that.
In that context, it’s more important than ever to keep that distinction between interpretation and the hubris of the God-stamp of the approval of such interpretation to the exclusion of others. Faith communities are built around different views, but the appeal to authority is about as well-thought of in academe as the ad hominem argument. Not only is it not convincing, it’s also not civil. An evangelist is someone who spreads the good news and treats the least of people as though he/she were Jesus. How does judgment come into it? I remember humility as a Christian value – is any of that left?
CD-Host on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:24 pm #
Bryan –
I don’t think you are following your own example. Gabriel was applicable to the muslim Sura 4:166:
At that time the Archangel [Gabriel] brought to the Prophet two green pieces of cloth from heaven, one of which was decorated with all kinds of precious stones from the earth, and the other with precious elements from heaven. He opened the first cloth and told the Prophet to sit on it, and he handed him the second one and told him to open it. When he opened it, he received the Holy Koran with words of light, and the secret of that tree in the seventh Heaven was revealed to him
I don’t believe a Christian would be either. I had lots of religious people (including fundamentalists of all different stripes) in classes took and taught. Their religious beliefs would only be a problem if and when they influenced their output. A student is free to believe the world is flat, they can even tell other students the world is flat and I’m an idiot for thinking it is round. But they better do their calculations assuming my idiotic theory of a spherical earth. And when they are done they can even put at the end of their paper “but of course the world is really flat so the correct answer would be ABC” and if ABC is right enough of the time I might even give them extra credit.
Dee Adams on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:28 pm #
No, no – I love Dr. Wallace’s job both in Bible.org and getting all those documents into digital media. I don’t think there is anything more valuable right now than to save those documents…especially the ones that are in the countries we generally don’t get into and are not being treated with the preservation techniques they deserve. Dr. Wallace did create a self imposed job that may be too big of a mountain to chew but the importance is bigger than anything I, the armchair theologian, can accomplish or frankly imagine. I might not agree with all he writes but his is still one in a few that can do what he does and I respect that.
No offense Dr. Wallace my humor sometimes gets a bit sharp.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:30 pm #
CD,
You’ve presented the philosophic naturalistic interpretation of metaphysical claims well. Unfortunately, you seem to still be oblivious to the presuppositions that cause you to evaluate a metaphysical claim within an historical text with events that currently are taking place, events of which that texts indicates will not take place in your current situation. In other words, the Bible claims that Israel encountered God in specific events geared toward the authentication TO ISRAEL of the revelation being given to them. Most of these events are not even repeatable in the Biblical world. So we are left with believing or disbelieving the report. You can say you don’t believe it based on your naturalistic form of empiricism, but you can’t say that your belief is more probable. According to what? Your ultimate beliefs that produce your naturalistic empiricism in the first place? That’s begging the question, is it not?
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:44 pm #
CD,
I’m sorry I missed the analogy. My issue would then be to ask why the question of the Koran’s truthfulness is even being discussed in the classroom? What should be analyzed is data, not metaphysical beliefs concerning the data. That’s for a philosophy class, not for a class that studies an ancient text.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:46 pm #
“I don’t believe a Christian would be either. I had lots of religious people (including fundamentalists of all different stripes) in classes took and taught. Their religious beliefs would only be a problem if and when they influenced their output.”
Maybe you could supply me with an example, so I know what we’re really discussing here.
Kit on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:08 pm #
Phm16,
Yeah, I think you’re right. There’s a standard critique of people no matter what side of the spectrum they’re on from one’s own position. Those who are to one side are “so broad-minded that they don’t believe anything,” and those on the other, “so narrow-minded that nothing gets in that’s not already there.” At least, that’s the basic stereotyping that happens. Reminds me of the Anabaptists in Austria in the 16th century – so narrow-minded to all around, but of course they had their strong opinions about the Catholics and other Protestants of their time, too. But the question is, is it fair? When is someone so far off that they’re not worth speaking with in an academic setting? So far it sounds like inerrancy or personal attachment to the subject matter are the litmus tests.
Heidi, if what I just said to Phm16 is right, would you agree or disagree? I liked your point that, if there is no attachment whatsoever to the material, it’s difficult to study anything – especially so to study anything with objectivity, because there’s not enough concern to take stock of one’s own predilections.
Thanks! Peace!
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:10 pm #
One meeting and look what happened!
Still going well folks, but there were some hick-ups a few posts back (maybe 50) that seemed to attack character. We will not put up with this, and it does not matter if you are an Evangelical or Liberal or whatever.
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:16 pm #
Bryan is right about the common mis-characterization of inerrancy. It seems like that has become the issue to a large degree.
If you are an Evangelical you are okay as long as you don’t ascribe to inerrancy. This makes sense depending on what definition of inerrancy you are talking about.
But it may interest you to note that I first learned of the ipsissima verba and ipsissima vox controversy from Bock who does not hold to ipsissima verba. I know that there is a spectrum of belief in between the two, but most DTS profs that I know of are strongly in favor of ipsissima vox (contra Thomas and Master’s seminary).
I am not saying that ipsissima verba should automatically disqualify one from the university, but I do understand how much its hermeneutical commitments can be a factor. However, this is not the case at most Evangelical seminaries that I know of.
Is the issue inerrancy?
CD-Host on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:17 pm #
Bryan –
First off secularism basically holds that beliefs without evidence should be rejected. So if there is not an evidentiary basis for those accounts, i.e. they aren’t testable then they should be treated as false not true. The same way that since the events recounted in The Amityville Horror are not testable they are rejected. Hume made this point centuries ago. The probability of somebody being wrong about a miracle is far higher than the probability of a miracle. Without tremendous supporting evidence accounts of miracles should be rejected.
More importantly, non testable claims aren’t generally an issue. For example someone who believed that some collection of supernatural events happened in 1648 Turkey under Sabbatai Zevi could work in a secular context in any area except 17th century Turkish history without any complications. And they could even work in 17th century Turkish history providing they did draw conclusions based upon presuppositions without evidence that would be acceptable to someone who did not share those presuppositions. There would only be a problem if they felt free to draw conclusions from the messianic state of Sabbatai Zevi.
Sextus Empiricus (for whom empiricism is named) concluded his discussion on God with the salient point that either God is empirically observable or empirically irrelevant. Your position seems to be to try and have it both ways. That Christianity influences almost every area of scholarship but is not testable in a way that such a broad theory would be. The primary law governing the motion of bodies (F=MA) influences many many events and hence is verifiable in an infinity of different ways.
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:19 pm #
Bryan,
Not only the ideology of inerrancy, but the term itself stems from the 19th Century debates you mentioned. If you reject the 19th Century interpretation of it, what’s the use of the term? Doesn’t “inspiration,” “canon,” and “God’s Word” cover what you believe? Why say you’re an inerrantist if you’re not interested in fighting those battles?
You can point to contextual clues to make your argument about Genesis 3 and the serpent, as can I, so I can follow you there. I’m thinking more of Samson pushing down a type of temple structure that hasn’t yet been found in Iron Age Israel. It’s possible to decide that some of the Samson narratives are in the genre of “folk tale” and tell an inerrant truth removed from anything that happened in history. This solution concedes all the points that the original inerrantists were fighting for and would be called theological liberalism by DTS and Westminster. I’m comfortable with it, and I agree that it doesn’t stop me from doing critical work, but I don’t think it solves the problem with truly Evangelical views and University, because given that take on Samson, I would be hard pressed to get a job at an Evangelical institution.
You reject my statement that the University Bible Departments and Evangelicalism have a long history that informs some of these issues. Ok – rejecting statements is always an option. I on the other hand will not reject your statement that politics also play a part – I made that point earlier. I don’t think that’s the sole reason, however, or Evangelicals would have just as difficult time getting into Universities to study anything – and they don’t.
CSC on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:23 pm #
BTW I personally know Westminster grads who are currently studying Hebrew Bible in the ANE at Harvard, Chicago, and Princeton – and Machinist has accepted tons of Gordon Conwell students into his program – so the bias isn’t all-encompassing.
CD-Host on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:29 pm #
Vinny –
Just to throw in here I agree with your #299 as well.
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:35 pm #
Concerning the presuppositions that everyone has and the myth of white coat hermeneutics, let me bring in a bit of Newbigin if I may,
“It is very hard to persuade the practitioners of the historical-critical method to recognize the creedal character of their approach.”
According to Ernest Troeltsch in 1898 here are the principles that should govern biblical interpretation:
1. The principle of critical or methodological doubt: Historical inquiry can never achieve absolute certainty, only relative degrees a probability.
(which I and most Evangelicals that I know of agree with so we are good on assumption #1)
2. The principle of analogy: historical knowledge is possible because all events are similar in principle, past or present. We must assume that the laws of nature in biblical times were the same as now.
This is a huge assumption that will make only certain, none contemporary subjective conclusions, possible. It is completely culturally bias and modern. With this, Evangelicals are not going to agree, making us, ironically, more liberal. It asserts that there can be no event that is unique and if assumes a presupposition that is impossible to prove.
Newbigin: “The assertion (which Christians make) that something unique has happened can of course be doubted, but it cannot be dismissed as an impossibility.”
3. The principle of correlation: the phenomena of history are interrelated and interdependent, and no event can be isolated from the sequence of historical causes and effects.
But this assumes that there CAN’T (not just isn’t) a cause and effect purpose that is transcendent. They admit this (without transcendent justification) in issues of morality, yet are unable to entertain it anywhere else.
As Newbigin says, “this is a creed”! If this is required, do we not have a confessional institutions that is not really liberal?
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:38 pm #
CD,
“they aren’t testable then they should be treated as false not true.”
History isn’t testable. The origins of the universe aren’t testable. What you had for breakfast isn’t testable. Why? Because these are past events. What philosophic naturalism supposes is that what is currently available to analyze as reoccurring should be the pattern for all events without exception. The Christian believes that these are the pattern for most events, except for those events that require belief in variation due to supernaturalism and a claim that attests to such, and is consistent with their ultimate beliefs.
I understand philosophic naturalism. You don’t have to continue repeating its methodology over and over again. The problem seems to be that you think if you can present the worldview as self-evident then it should be our default position. The view, however, is not self-evident because it assumes itself in order to prove itself.
Now, I don’t believe that all ultimate beliefs are valid. I tolerate other beliefs, but I’m a presuppositionalist, so I believe that everyone ultimately assumes a theistic/trascendent entity in their worldview; but since this is not what this post is about, I would rather not go there. So let’s not discuss the validity of philosophic naturalism, as though all knowledge can only be gained through empiricism, which is in essence what you are claiming here.
Sue on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:43 pm #
I give up – can’t read it all but here is a smattering. I liked something Bryan said but I forget what.
Then I noticed this,
…I speak as someone who took many, many language classes at DTS and graded for many (both Hebrew and Greek) as well. After four years of Hebrew I took intermediate Hebrew at my University and it completely rocked my world. A person with two years of Hebrew from my school will be light years ahead of your standard DTS ThM grad, and very far ahead of even the cream of the DTS crop (if I am a good example of the cream of the DTS crop). If you are in the MA/MDiv here for NT, you will be trained in Classical Greek by some of the top Classicists in the world. You’ll also take Latin. Koine will be merely one of the Greek dialects you have mastered.
This desribes my program. Perhaps then there is a difference. I am concerned that evangelicals don’t learn classical Greek first, learning to read the language, tackle several dialects and then take up the NT.
I have to say that I have seen egregious errors in articles written on gender issues. They are typically simple errors of fact, and not interpretation. They have remained uncorrected since so few seem to have the facility to understand them.
I also believe that software theology is the death knell of scholarship. The articles based on computer searches probably stand among the most unusual published articles I have ever read.
A few years ago, when I wrote on the Better Bibles Blog, I had fellows from two different software companies ask me if we could meet up at SBL. One of them explicitly was trying to imitate one of my studies using software. Frankly I don’t think it can be done.
However, I am not against technology per se. I am an experienced tech trainer in my workplace and posted on the Unicode list for some time.
But, quite simply, I read posts by both men working with Bible software which promoted the notion that women would experience their redemption within the boundaries of the domestic, with childbearing symbolizing their submission to the male.
I wrapped myself in a duvet, cried my eyes out, and slowly withdrew from posting in the bibliosphere. My girly parts belong only to me now. They are not the business of anybody else.
The upshot is that at SBL only men presented Bible software. It is NOT that women don’t like software, but that some people say things about women that are HIGHLY inappropriate and some women are driven away.
This is just one little area where the conservative evangelical agenda against women has impoverished the field of technology.
CD-Host on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:45 pm #
Bryan –
Well yes that is the precisely the point. The secular university lays claim to empirical methods as being the sole method for gaining knowledge. That is the epistemology of the secular university. All they claim to teach you is how to be a better empiricist in a particular discipline. Not being interested in empiricism and going to college is like not being interested in construction and going for a degree in plumbing.
If you want this is the real line in the sand. You don’t have to believe in empiricism but you cannot make use of non empirical methodologies in your research.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:47 pm #
CSC,
I still claim inerrancy because my belief is that the Bible has not error in what it attempts to communicate. That’s why I still claim it. The errantists of the 19th Cent were using their version of error to show the Bible as a product of human experiences. I reject this. To say that the “Three Little Pigs” is an erroneous story based on the idea that pigs don’t talk, and the author is, therefore, in error, is erroneous within itself. So I hold to that term because I think it defines the historic position much better than the term “errantist” does. Perhaps I could claim that I hold a form of inerrancy but I think this is unnecessary, since as I said before, I’m open even to the other views of inerrancy should the evidence lead me there (of course, it hasn’t but my ultimate beliefs don’t exclude those options).
BTW, I think Machinist was reacting to my evangelical teachers at Trinity, where I got my M.A. I don’t know what would have happened had I come directly with a degree in Hebrew Bible from Westminster (my degree there was in NT even though I studied under Pete Enns and took more 2d Temple lit there than NT courses per se).
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:49 pm #
BTW: one DTS prof used to joke:
“There is nothing more than an Evangelical wants than to be called a scholar by a liberal”!
I don’t think that this covers the issues, but I do think that, as this post shows, there is a great deal of respect by Evangelicals for liberals. There is simply a lot of give and take that can be useful to both.
Finally, I do think we need to distinguish between two ways that the word liberal can be used:
1. Liberal in method: which is what we (Evangelicals) are arguing needs to be consistently applied by allowing Evangelicals a voice.
2. Liberal in belief: meaning that they deny cardinal beliefs of the Christian faith such as the existence of God, inspiration (not necessarily inerrancy), the resurrection of Christ, and the possibility of miracles.
The first, we are arguing, does not in any way necessitate the second.
And, more importantly, the second is not a prerequisite for the first.
KH on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:57 pm #
Quite a fascinating read. I read the initial post a couple of days ago, and I am rather surprised by the nerves it seems to have struck. I won’t say much here that hasn’t already been said, but I will reiterate the ideas of the original post. I’ve seen countless evidences, both within the academic world and in other areas, where “liberalism” really means “left leaning fundamentalism.” Our post-modern culture is tolerant of almost everything except Christianity, which is the most inclusive of religions (you don’t even have to “do” anything!). Thanks, Dan, for speaking out on something that has been a growing systemic issue.
Joshua Allen on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:58 pm #
Whew! I’ve read every comment so far, and I have to say this is utterly fascinating. Great post!
CD-Host on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:59 pm #
Actually they are completely testable. Our current views of the origin of the universe all came from the evidence contradicting other theories.
Most ancient people’s believed that earth always looked much as it looked today. It was only with Paleontology that we came to believe that life on earth had undergone radical changes.
For several centuries are picture of the universe looked essentially like our picture of the Milky Way does today. It was only when parallax confirmed that there were some “stars” which were really very bright entities (billions of times brighter than any known star) and yet vastly further away than any known star that we had a universe filled galaxies.
For most of human history we believed the universe was relatively static. Ideas like “the big bang” were fanciful and seen as remote possibilities, most people believed in a static universe. Until it became clear that all the galaxies were pulling away from one another. Which is to say the universe was in a very real sense “expanding”. Then when radiation was detected which confirmed an explosion of about the right force, during the 1960s….
The theory we have today for the universe was the best explanation for the evidence we had (up until this decade).
And our theory is likely to change, because the evidence is inconsistent with our current theory. Galaxies rotate too fast for our weight estimates. There is something acting like additional mass. Galaxies evidentially have some other energy source acting on them we don’t understand, a sort of “repulsive gravity”.
What is lacking now is any sort of theory with good empirical backing to explain the evidence. Hence these anomalies are known, noted as disconfirming our theory and the quest for a new theory goes on. I’d call that a perfect example of what secular scholarship asks for. Each theory makes predictions about new evidence, new methods allow us to collect new evidence and that new evidence either strengthens are belief that the theory is a good one or disconfirms it and starts the process of finding a new theory.
CD-Host on 02 Dec 2009 at 7:08 pm #
Glenn –
Somewhat off topic, but yes they were quite Christian:
THE TRANSLATORS OF THE BIBLE WISH
GRACE, MERCY, AND PEACE
THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.
Sue on 02 Dec 2009 at 7:11 pm #
Michael, you wrote,
To answer the question that many are asking: “Why do Evangelicals care about being accepted into a secular school?” I would offer the following:
5. Because the university, like it or not, still hold more prestige to the outside world than do confessional school. Therefore, it offers more opportunities.
I can hardly believe you wrote that!
Don’t some professors at DTS discourage a woman from seeking prestige and further opportunities. Why should anyone care about evangelical men who pursue prestige and opportunity, when they often discourage women.
I do care actually, because I think unfairness and dashed hopes are sad for anyone. But I wish that those who churn out articles instructing men that their wives should be subordinate had had some pity themselves.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 7:48 pm #
CD, I think you completely missed my point. My point wasn’t that we can’t observe the universe as it is today and make predictions concerning what may have happened in the past. My point is that you cannot recreate a past event because it’s past. For instance, you may tell me that what you had for breakfast this morning was a bowl of Fruitloops. You can then invite me over to your house to observe you eating Fruitloops for the next five years if you like; but this says nothing as to whether you ate Fruitloops in the past. For all I know you ate Cookie Crisps for the past year, ran out of your supply, and started in on your Fruitloops the day I showed up. This is where the limitations of empiricism come into play. I have to simply trust/believe your report or disbelieve it. I can try and gather the evidence up, but in the end, my conclusions for what occurred are going to be in line with my belief or disbelief of your testimony.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 7:53 pm #
BTW, I completely agree that the university’s job is to just deal with the data. Unfortunately, it is not true that it ends there, and the university relies only on empirical data. Instead, it relies on philosophic naturalism wielding empiricism to the exclusion of other viewpoints, and this is the main problem.
Why both Bock and Borg are on my Ready-Reading Shelf « Threads from Henry's Web on 02 Dec 2009 at 8:28 pm #
[...] have been wanting to respond further to the excellent discussion over at Reclaiming the Mind, to which I linked a couple of days ago, but I’m not really an academic, and Karl Barth [...]
Vinny on 02 Dec 2009 at 8:33 pm #
So are you saying that universities hold an irrational belief that denies that presuppositional ultimate beliefs determine the conclusions of these scholars when dealing with historical and metaphysical theories?
Not for a minute Bryan.
The fact that pure objective scholarship might never be obtained does not in any way imply that its pursuit is irrational any more than the pursuit of virtue, truth, integrity or honesty are rendered irrational by the fact that man always falls short of these ideals.
This is where I think your arguments fall short. It seems that you believe that exposing the myth of objective scholarship compels its abandonment as a goal by the secular university. I don’t think this follows at all.
Efficient markets don’t exist. Naïve faith in the efficient market hypothesis by political economists and financial industry professionals helped produce the current financial crisis. Nevertheless, the efficient market hypothesis is an incredibly useful tool for modeling and understanding economic activity. Its limitations do not make it irrational.
By the same token, the model of objective scholarship employed by the secular university has proven incredibly useful and effective in practice. It has earned great respect for the secular university which is precisely why evangelicals seek to have their ideas accepted there. If it did not work so well, you wouldn’t care about its attitude towards your positions.
BTW, I do not concede that things are as bad in the secular university as you would describe.
C Michael Patton on 02 Dec 2009 at 8:36 pm #
Sue,
It is simply amazing how you can see the women’s issue in everything! Very talented…
Again, I think it needs to be restated that while I am a complementarian, complementarians come in all shapes and sizes. As well, there are a lot of Evangelicals who are egalitarians. It simply has nothing to do with what we are talking about!
(And…if you are a women (and not just a female bot), I will find out and not listen to anything you say anyway…or at least learn from it.)
Heidi L. Nordberg on 02 Dec 2009 at 8:46 pm #
@Kit #324
I don’t think there is any such thing as complete objectivity – we are limited and empowered by our perspectives, context, cultural lenses, and all sorts of other things.
I don’t know of any scholar that can be committed to an area of research without personal driving factors – including a calling. And there is no absolute truthful reading of a text – not even when you are a member of the same community in the same era and in the same language. However, what a scholar does is to bring together every method that they know, and think just as hard as they can, and try out permutations and possible connecting themes and what could have been unspoken because it was censored or already common knowledge. You research the meansings of a word, you listen for the textures and cadences, you compare genres and repetitions and variations. The more you can draw on, the better. To artifically constrain a reading of a text – from any direction – is destructive to scholarship.
What some people have tried to do is to be honest about exactly where they are speaking from, but then to let the text speak, and to use every bit of insight and every tool from their kit to put together an interpretation that can try to translate what they might have meant into terms that we could access. There is nothing wrong – nothing, whatsoever – with having beliefs that are intertwining with the analyzed text. That’s not the issue, and it hasn’t been for a long time, and I don’t understand why anyone is still debating that. The problem is having the courage and caring to listen to the text, and to really get your ego out of your interpretation just as much as you possibly can.
God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline. – 2 Timothy 1:7
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 8:55 pm #
Vinny,
“This is where I think your arguments fall short. It seems that you believe that exposing the myth of objective scholarship compels its abandonment as a goal by the secular university. I don’t think this follows at all.”
Well, if there isn’t any such thing as objective scholarship then striving after it is a fantasy, so Yes, it does compel an abandonment of that goal. One ought to only realize his ultimate beliefs and argue as well as he can with the evidence from there. That doesn’t mean that his beliefs do not accurately describe reality. It only means that it is impossible for him to discover reality apart from his ultimate beliefs.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 8:57 pm #
BTW, I think the unwillingness to admit that secular viewpoints are based in beliefs, rather than objective facts self evidently speaking for themselves, displays on its own the atmosphere of the secular university. Of course, I am speaking about the Ivy League here, not just any university.
Lisa Robinson on 02 Dec 2009 at 8:59 pm #
I’ve been pondering John’s question of why would a conservative evangelical who wants to work in secular academics opt to go to a conservative evangelical school. So here is what I’m wondering. Education at a conservative evangelical school would be more likely to accommodate a voice from one trained within its ranks. But is there a bias that goes the other way? What of conservative evangelicals that are trained at liberal mainstream universities? Will they still be afforded the same voice and respect in conservative evangelical circles? That might be why exclusively liberal training might be avoided.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 9:03 pm #
On a further note, I don’t want to study at a university because I think their philosophical persuasion is brilliant. I want to study there because I like the programs there, and because I would actually like to publish my Biblical studies stuff and teach at a graduate level. It is less than likely that these two goals of mine will occur from my acquiring a seminary PhD (although occasionally this does happen, I’m not willing to sink more money on a bet).
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 9:04 pm #
Yes, I made 350! That was my short term goal in life.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 9:08 pm #
Lisa,
It is not the same. In fact, a university training is desired by most evangelical institutions. The prestige of the name, as well as the rigorous programs employed, give more weight to one who has university training under the belt. It may also be an unconscious approval of someone who’s scholarship has “gone through the fire” and was able to hold his own.
Lisa Robinson on 02 Dec 2009 at 9:14 pm #
Bryan, your statement is assuming that one is going from a university into an evangelical graduate or post-graduate program. I was thinking of the PhD who had never set foot in an evangelical school.
CD-Host on 02 Dec 2009 at 9:51 pm #
Bryan #342 –
You were upset before when I was defining empiricism. This is a key point of empiricism. If it is permanently impossible to distinguish between me having eaten fruit-loops or Cookie Crisps, that is to say given perfect knowledge of the present I can make that determination then there is no distinction between me having eater fruit-loops and cookie crisps. The difference doesn’t exist at all. In a very real sense I did either one, neither and both.
Vinny on 02 Dec 2009 at 9:54 pm #
Bryan,
I doubt that there is such a thing as completely objective scholarship. However, there is scholarship that is more objective and scholarship that is less objective. There are scholars whose conclusions are influenced by their presuppositions and there are scholars whose conclusions are predetermined by their presuppositions. There are scholars who grapple with their presuppositions and strive to make them clear so that their conclusions can be evaluated accordingly and their are propagandists who seek to conceal the effect of their presuppositions in the hopes that their conclusions will be given more weight than they deserve. There are scholars who fairly meet the strongest arguments against their conclusions and scholars who sweep them under the rug or cavalierly dismiss them.
I don’t think that striving after objective scholarship is futile. A man’s reach should exceed his grasp.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 9:59 pm #
Hi Lisa,
Actually, I was talking about scholars who apply to an evangelical seminary to teach there. Gleason Archer is a good case in point. All of his degrees, I believe, were from Harvard, and that was seen as a great thing among evangelical institutions.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 10:02 pm #
CD,
I didn’t say it was permanently impossible to distinguish them. I said it was impossible of attaining the knowledge of what occurred in reality without believing testimony concerning that reality. You are, once again, assuming that if knowledge cannot be obtained empirically then it is not knowledge. I deny this.
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 10:09 pm #
Vinny,
a person cannot transcend his own mind and the finite and cultural limitations thereof. Therefore, he is not able to conduct even a tad bit more of an objective study of the matters we’re discussing than a person who purposely hides and conceals information. The only difference you have described is a person who is consciously manipulative with the information, and does so on purpose, and a person who is unaware of the fact that no matter what he does his presuppositions will determine his conclusions.
Once again, maybe his predetermined beliefs are correct and accurately, or at least sufficiently, describe reality. So be it. My point is that this knowledge is not gained from objective analysis in the slightest. Hence, to draw it back to Dan’s discussion, there is no reason to dismiss evangelicals because they have presuppositions that limit their study because every scholar is in the exact same boat.
Donna on 02 Dec 2009 at 10:10 pm #
Seminary education and Masters in Theology show up where in the bible??? What was the name of the NT seminary that the 12 apostles studied? Why do you care what liberal theologians think? They need the Gospel more than anything.
twinlet2 on 02 Dec 2009 at 10:13 pm #
I am currently a graduating ThM student at DTS. When I was a senior in college, I spent the entire year reading catalogues of various instituitions ranging from Yale, Princeton, to Fuller and Gordon-Conwell. The head of my religion department wanted me to attend an Ivey League Divinity School where his students had a legacy of going. My roommate in fact graduated from there with her MDiv. However, I desired to go to a school with a reputable language program. My experience concentrating in Academic NT Studies has been amazing. I do not think any other institution could have given me a better education in this area. However, I have to agree that some aspects of my education at DTS has been less than desirable. Some of the other classes I have taken in other departments have been less than engaging and have not challenged me ideologically and intellectually. I feel that when I graduate from DTS, I will be able to talk intelligently about exegeting Scripture (thanks to the OT and NT departments) but not about Theology. Though I have taken six or seven courses in systematic theology, in only one was I challenged to engage in current issues. The others I breezed through, with very little effort. I unfortunately have had the same experience with the BE department. I encountered some professors who would not even open the class up for debate and if someone would disagree with them, they would simply tell them they were wrong without engaging in discussion. Being an NT person, I found that some of the scholarship in the BE New Testament classes were outdated and lacking, which led to much frustration in class discussions and a lower grade on papers because the grader was not familiar with the issues (but that is just me venting). I probably should stop, considering I have not received my degree yet, and I would like to remain in good standing!
Would I have chosen a different institution to do my Master’s work? Probably not. I am very grateful to the profs in the OT and NT department who have opened my eyes up to Scripture and haev taught me how to research issues for myself. I would not trade any other education for that life skill. However, I do wish the seminary would evaluate the scholarship of some of the other departments.
Vinny on 02 Dec 2009 at 10:33 pm #
Bryan,
I disagree with your assessment. In any case, it seems that you reject the model of intellectual inquiry to which the secular university subscribes. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I don’t think you should expect it to adopt a new model just to accommodate you. It seems akin to going to a ballet school and demanding that they teach you tap dancing because you think ballet is a waste of time.
Matt Evans on 02 Dec 2009 at 10:45 pm #
Donna,
Those 12 disciples didn’t have the New Testament at all. Should we do away with that since they did not have it? Of course not! So, what is wrong with studying it (since we don’t have the benefit of living it as the disciples did)?
Bryan on 02 Dec 2009 at 10:54 pm #
Vinny,
that’s where you’ve misread me. I reject that I must adopt a particular worldview in assessing the nature of reality in order to be a scholar. You would, frankly, not be able to distinguish my commentary and analysis of a text from a person’s in the university unless we both made remarks assuming the metaphysical reality of the Bible. I don’t reject their model of inquiry. I reject the idea that its objective, and that my analysis should be suspect as subjective in comparison to it. I can get along fine interpreting texts without every mentioning any of this in the university. I just won’t be given that chance. I’m OK with that, but would hope that it changes some day.
BTW, the more appropriate analogy would be in being rejected from a ballet school because my other schools promoted a different brand of shoes than they like to use.
Peter G. on 02 Dec 2009 at 11:19 pm #
As a current student at DTS in the ThM program who may be looking to pursue PhD studies this post is particularly relevant. So thanks to all who have contributed.
I resonate very much with the comments from William Lane Craig that someone posted earlier. Evangelicals (and Christians more broadly) should be at the forefront of any and all good scholarship. For too long we have been dogged by a lingering anti-intellectualism (Mark Noll’s The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind is must-reading here).
But maybe the problem is that we haven’t figured out how to properly be Christian scholars. Dan mentioned in an earlier comment (#269) that he knows of universities that breed the wrong kind of competition. That leads me to wonder what the right sort of motivation for academic work is for a confessing Christian. I have no doubt that there are wrong motivations for a Christian: greed, pride, self-justification, money (okay, probably not money). And here I’m thinking of the recent biography of G. E. Ladd. In Jonathan Pennington’s review in the most recent issue of JETS, he gives a pertinent warning, “Most of us would long to have even half the impact that Ladd has. But at what cost? Ladd was driven to be accepted by the secular academy as a legitimate scholar, and to this end he sacrificed his family relationships… A word of caution regarding the hopes and priorities of younger scholars certainly lies in this story of a flawed but great evangelical man.” (p. 667). So what shall we do? Should be disengage from the hard work of academic inquiry because it carries certain dangers with it? I dare say we should not. But we had better do some deep soul searching so that we do it for the right reasons.
Marc on 03 Dec 2009 at 2:38 am #
…”are not Christians” because they “do not believe that Jesus’ death paid for our sins, or that he was bodily raised from the dead”.
So being a Christian is reduced to believing a proposition and not doing the will of the Father. I guess when Jesus says to believers at judgement, Why did you not care for the poor, they will counter, Lord, I believed all the right stuff and never got around to the optional doing. Lord, I’m not a legalist, Lord, Lord…
Michael T on 03 Dec 2009 at 2:41 am #
My 2 cents. I think there are 3 approaches to studying the Bible (or anything for that matter). I’ll use Christ’s resurrection to demonstrate these three approaches.
1. Christ’s resurrection is a historical event and definitely occurred
2. Christ’s resurrection is not a historical event and definitely did not happen
3. Christ may have risen from the grave and he may not have
I would suggest that when doing true scholarship one must (regardless of their personal convictions) attempt to approach the issue as if number 3 is true. Now I know that this is not completely possible because ones beliefs will always shape their investigation to some extent, however I believe approaching something from number 3 should be the goal.
The problem is that most people today either approach the issues from perspective 1 or 2 neither or which is a more plausible approach then the other. The both have philosophical presuppositions which are not provable (no matter what some may say you can not prove that there is nothing beyond the material). Thus we have two diametrically opposed sets of presuppositions with each side (and one side in particular) accusing the other side of not being scholarly. It’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Neither one is truly completely open to inquiry. They are both limited by their presuppositions.
Ultimately the criteria for admission to doctoral level programs (beyond grades, GRE, etc.) should not be the set of presuppositions one brings with them, but their willingness to question those presuppositions and follow their studies wherever they may lead. As I think Dr. Wallace said earlier “Pursue the Truth at all costs.” Right now there are only a very few who are actually doing this.
Howard Pepper on 03 Dec 2009 at 2:59 am #
Very well put, Michael T! (#366)… I concur!
Pursuing the truth is very tough, especially if one if not free from practical or relationship/social/ego pressures, as very few are able to be at any given time.
Daniel B. Wallace on 03 Dec 2009 at 3:52 am #
Bryan said: “Case in point: Muslims are not discriminated against when applying for a PhD in Islamic Studies based on whether they believe the Koran to be true. Most Muslims do believe it is true, and in an inerrant manner at that. Why is that evangelicals are discriminated against because of their belief that the Bible is true?”
To this, CD-Host responded: “No actually they are. Secular Jewish studies departments are not friendly to Orthodox or Hasidic Jews who use religious paradigms for similar reasons. Any Muslim who attempted to argue the Koran as indisputable fact based on direct revelation from Gabriel would have a similar problem.”
CD-Host, I have to take issue with that; I agree with Bryan. Consider the book, Variant Readings Of The Quran: A Critical Study Of Their Historical And Linguistic Origins, authored by Ahmad Ali Al-Iman and published in 2007. I thought this would be good reading, so I picked up a copy. It was Al-Iman’s doctoral thesis at the University of Edinburgh. His professors were Muslims, and he affirmed that the Kethiv-Qere (or, more technically correct, the different ways to point the Arabic) were oral variants, not textual variants (he denied that there are any textual variants in the Qur’an). And that these oral variants were all divinely inspired.
The fact that this student could pass his Viva when his thesis was not falsifiable and it did not address the very real textual variants in the Qur’an manuscripts (yes, they do exist)—and that all this was at a major western university—illustrates that Bryan is quite right: Christians are discriminated against in ways that other religious groups are not. And the disturbing thing is that many evangelical treatments have truckloads of evidence, which is all but ignored because of the source. I know too many doctoral students who had to finish their degrees elsewhere because of the biases of the first school. This may occur at Dallas Seminary, but I have yet to see it. The fundamental critiques made of dissertations by their readers at DTS is that the student didn’t explore all the options, was not fair to those with whom he disagreed, etc. In other words, they are critiqued for not following the evidence where it leads, of not being as open minded as they should be.
Daniel B. Wallace on 03 Dec 2009 at 4:03 am #
Two other comments for the whole group:
First, one of the reasons why conservative students want to study at mainline schools for their doctorates is, as Michael said, reputation. Case in point: a brilliant DTS grad earned his first PhD at a major UK university, followed by a second PhD at another major UK university. He needed credentials for the kind of work he was doing. But he confided in me that he would have gotten a more rigorous, more intellectually satisfying degree had he gone to DTS for his PhD. But because of the goals he had in life (which I am not at liberty to mention), he had to choose the route he did.
Second, there seems to be an illogical inference in some of the comments as follows: There are several anecdotes of DTS and other evangelical seminaries being narrow-minded, not tolerating certain kinds of questions, etc. Granted–these things are true, but they are not the SUM of those schools. And some of us are doing what we can to rid the evangelical schools of their docetic bibliology. At the same time, there are students who “get it.” They understand what genuine biblical scholarship should look like, and they want to further their education by studying under world-class scholars. They know they will be sharpened by the experience and so they apply. Those students seem to be lumped in with some evangelical faculty as though all were narrow-minded bigots. But the real question that this blog post started with was this: Are liberal schools closed-minded when it comes to evangelicals? From the hundreds of comments on this post, I would have to say that yes, for the most part, they really are. And the chief illustration is those of you who are not Christians (in the historic sense that I defined earlier) who often belittle evangelical Christians by lumping them in with flat earthers, and UFO hunters. By slamming anyone who embraces inerrancy (which, I don’t think, has even been defined here yet, though I may have missed it) as out of his mind, doesn’t this reveal both your animosity toward the historic Christian faith and modern-day evangelicals? What are you afraid of? And why are you unwilling to engage in meaningful, substantive dialogue?
CD-Host on 03 Dec 2009 at 5:32 am #
Bryan –
You are still using non empirical language. There is no “occurred in reality” apart from the ability to verify it. This the is core idea of quantum physics, that you cannot meaningfully talk about the past apart from interactions that produce effects. No interactions means the event is in an unrealized state.
You are trying to have a higher truth than material reality. That is not permissible within the epistemology of the university. It is not just that there are no verifiable statements about my breakfast (to use your analogy), there are no true or false statements about my breakfast at all. As I said above, and I think Vinny is saying this is the line in the sand. You can’t have a personal definition truth different than this one. Otherwise everything becomes meaningless.
I think this is a good conversation that we have gotten to the root issue.
Ranger on 03 Dec 2009 at 5:49 am #
60-80% unbelievers? There is no way…I’d be hard pressed to even say it was 50-50. If this is the case, then you are using a definition for Christian that would probably exclude some of the 4000 or so attendants at this years Evangelical Theological Society meeting.
CD-Host on 03 Dec 2009 at 6:07 am #
Daniel –
You wrote the post but I thought the post was about admissions and being willing to work together. I think it is important to separate about two questions as entirely distinct
1) Does X believe Y’s religion is stupid.
2) Does X believe Y’s religion makes it impossible to work together on Z.
(1) and (2) are pretty independent. The issue as everyone is saying is not whether you believe the bible to be inerrant, AFAIKT none of the secular people had a problem with that. Where the disagreement was whether you were free to draw any conclusions based upon the bible’s inerrancy and not just publicly available data.
As I mentioned I read and am a fan of the NET bible, Sue can vouch I frequently have called it my favorite evangelical translation. So I’m not bashing but let me give you an example of a place I think you personally did it on a verse of limited theological importance, your text note for 2 Cor 12:4
Assuming that the “first heaven” would be atmospheric heaven (the sky) and “second heaven” the more distant stars and planets, “third heaven” would refer to the place where God dwells. This is much more likely than some variation on the seven heavens mentioned in the pseudepigraphic book 2 Enoch and in other nonbiblical and rabbinic works.
Now this is great because you obviously are familiar with the theory of the 7 heavens, its heavy use and the fact that the 3rd heaven is the realm of Raphael and the tree of life (as per Rev 2:7). You mention all these things so you are familiar with them. And then you rather cavalierly jump to some 3 heavens theory, and cite it as more likely? Based on what?
IMHO it sounds a great deal like you don’t want to admit that Paul is saying “I know a man who went to Venus and heard things too sacred to be put into words”…. because it would mean Paul is a 1st century man that thinks of Venus as a paradisal world and not the world of vicious temperatures, incredible pressures and sulfuric acid for rain modern humanity pictures it as. It is not liberals who insist the bible couldn’t be dead wrong about something that 19th century writers were wrong about.
So let me ask you, because this is a perfect example of a liberal who believes that inerrancy caused you to engage in bad scholarship, and on a a verse where hopefully no one is likely to get too agitated. So in your opinion, what happened? How did you come to that conclusion?
CD-Host on 03 Dec 2009 at 7:07 am #
Daniel –
I can understand that. If I think A does bad scholarship then B’s citation of A doesn’t add to B’s credibility. Generally the scholarly procedure when absorbing a discipline from a questionable source is to use the source for inspiration but reprove everything.
Acharya S’s “The Christ Conspiracy” has tons of footnotes, a source for virtually every sentence. There are probably no less than 200 sources accurately cited in that book. The reason it isn’t regarding as having definitively proven much of anything is because the sources themselves are seen as highly questionable.
If an evangelical student believes he can push an idea through he should do so with secular sources. My policy on any citation from an a questionable source would have been, “find a mainstream source or reprove it”. Ten bad cites isn’t worth anything. One of my advisors had spent several years taking a book he thought was of crucial importance which had some rather loose citations and cleaning up the citations to make them firm, and reproving where there was no way to do it. I think that was time well spent.
As for the Muslim student, I don’t know enough about the example you cited. The book itself is published by a semi-religious publisher IIT. I don’t know Arabic but it does sound to me like he had a thesis. If he was able to show that all evidence was consistent with the hypothesis that there were no actual textual variants that sounds like scholarship. Attributing the oral variants to divine inspiration has no place in a scholarly work, we don’t disagree there.
Kit on 03 Dec 2009 at 10:02 am #
Guilty Until Proven Innocent
This post may border on the wrong subject because it’s about evangelicals having a worthwhile position and not being allowed to bring it into the university. Bringing the evangelical to the university might mean that the evangelical’s perspective gets brought up … and if that’s not what this discussion is about, pass on to another post.
One can always find another way to explain something – even to negate something that really happened. It sounds like the courtroom. Regardless of the true story, either the prosecution or the defense has to come up with another plausible explanation in order to win, right? I don’t think that evangelical claims (the defense) should be refused entrance into universities (