Friends, I’ve been stuck in central California for four days, waiting for a flight home to Dallas. I’ve been able to read the comments a bit, but not thoroughly. I think it’s time to close this discussion since it has moved far away from the original topic. This happens almost all the time unfortunately.

Before we close it, however, I would like to offer a perspective on the nature of the comments. All too often commenters do not deal with the details of an argument, but rather speak in generalities about what the Bible teaches. Some have simply ignored the critique I made of Wright on justification and have assumed that works are an essential part of salvation–even if they are sponsored by the Spirit of God. But this is precisely what I was critiquing Wright for: a sloppy, not-well-thought-out view of justification that somehow requires us to do more than put our trust in Jesus to be saved. The key texts here, as I have argued, are Rom 3.21-26 and 4.5. There is absolutely nothing that we can do to get ourselves saved nor anything that we can do to keep ourselves saved. It is all of God’s grace. We receive the gift of salvation by faith. Once you add anything to the finished work of Christ on the cross you effectively blaspheme the Lord because you’re saying that he didn’t do enough and that our feeble, sin-tainted efforts can add to his accomplishment. Paul underscores the logic of grace in Rom 4 to such an extent that one cannot miss his emphasis on works as adding zip, nada, nothing to our salvation.

Where works come in is especially related to the ministry of the Spirit. A true believer is one who has repented of his/her sinfulness and has begun to trust the Lord—not only for salvation but for all of life. And the Holy Spirit has invaded this person’s life, prompting him/her to live for God. Phil 2.12-13 was mentioned by one commenter, as though this demonstrated that works were a necessary addition to our salvation. But only v. 12 was quoted! Verse 13 puts the divine perspective on v. 12: “For the one producing both the desire and the labor, for his good pleasure, is God.” Paul says that we are to work out our own salvation, but God is the one who ‘works it in,’ if you will. It’s there, and is our present possession, but the aspect of salvation known as sanctification is an ongoing process in which we use effort, under the power of the Spirit, to please God, knowing that our eternal home is with him.

At issue here is the role that assurance of salvation might have in the process of sanctification. As Susan has well noted, God never unadopts his children! Yes, there will be a judgment to face, but the judgment that believers will face is not one in which their salvation is in jeopardy. Let me close with this question: For those of you who are married, do you love your spouse more if you think that at the slightest infraction he or she might abandon you? Or do you love your spouse more if you rest secure in…

Susan,

A few more thoughts.

First of all, I want to reiterate again, that I do not believe in any way that it is our own works that save us. It is ONLY through Jesus and what He did and being in relationship with Him that we are saved. We will not stand before Him on judgment day and be welcomed because we have done anything on our own to merit salvation. However, what He did makes the way for us to not only receive forgiveness but life and sanctification through His Spirit. Yes, it is He who works the sanctification in us–but we are told to work it out.

You say that in Romans 8 it speaks of two categories of people–the saved and the unsaved. Those that walk in the flesh and those that walk in the Spirit. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that if you are saved, you will be walking in the Spirit. I still believe there is a distinction there however.

Look back in Romans 6:11 and the next few verses. I think that may help show what I mean. There we are told to reckon ourselves dead to sin and to not let sin reign in us. It sounds to me like even here in Romans there is a choice to be made as to how much we yield to the Spirit. And again, Paul warns that if we are servants of sin, the end is death.

And in Galatians 5 there is a real distinction made between living in the Spirit and walking in the Spirit. (See verse 14 to the end of the chapter, noting particularly verses 16 where we are commanded to walk in the Spirit and verse 25 which says that if we live in the Spirit, we should also walk in the Spirit). The implication being, it would seem to me, that just because we are a Christian, we may not necessarily be walking in the Spirit. In which case we would be living in the flesh, which Paul says leads to death! I think the Ephesians, Colossians, and I Corinthians verses I spoke of earlier bear this out.

You know, I honestly can’t say that I understand how all of these concepts, (the ones you spoke of and the ones I have brought up), work together. But I simply can not deny that I see these things in Scripture and the warnings that go with it.

By the say, I haven’t had time to listen to that link yet and may not for awhile.

As this conversation has taken the direction of an Arminian versus Calvinist discussion. I’d like to suggest that Robert Shank’s Life in the Son would be a valuable contribution.

You know I was chatting with some friends from my Bible study recently and the question came up that if we could remove one book from the Bible what book would it be. I said Romans because it seems nearly 75% of the arguments that arise among Evangelical’s stem from something that was said in Romans and the various ways different groups interpret it.

Susan,

I am just heading out the door. I was going to ask about the link to that sermon but I see it came through now.

You said, “Cheryl, you are correct that salvation isn’t ‘optional’ (which makes it sound like WE make it happen)….it is promised by God! Sanctification is worked in us by God’s Holy Spirit. It is not something which we work in ourselves.”

I assume you meant sanctification isn’t optional–which is what I said? Yes God works it in us, but we are also told to “Work it out with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12

The phrase “work out” means, according to Thayer’s:

“1) to perform, accomplish, achieve

2) to work out i.e. to do that from which something results

a) of things: bring about, result in

3) to fashion i.e. render one fit for a thing”

The same verse goes on to say it is God who works it in us.

But this aspect of “working out” is what I have been talking about.

Have to go for now…

Cheryl, you are correct that salvation isn’t ‘optional’ (which makes it sound like WE make it happen)….it is promised by God! Sanctification is worked in us by God’s Holy Spirit. It is not something which we work in ourselves.

On the other hand, Marc: Jesus says in Matt. 7:21, “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven–only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds? Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me you lawbreakers!”

On judgement day, the pretenders and false converts…..who may have served long and hard in the church, will be exposed. What matters is having a right relationship with Him. This comes about when we are broken over our sin under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and we receive the forgiveness which comes through Christ alone. If you think that you have a plea before God BECAUSE you have dutifully served Him, you are in for a big surprise. Only God knows the true condition of a person’s heart. He gives grace to the humble (like the tax collector who beat his breast before God), but He is apposed to the proud (those, like the Pharisee, who think that their good deeds and right-living, give them a place before God).

And notice that phrase (Matt 7:21 “…only the one who does the will of my Father”. Recall that Romans 8 makes it clear that only those who are in the Spirit are at all capable of doing the will of the Father.

…. a legitimate question to ask.

Cheryl, that’s weird. My post ended up jumbled and out of order. My comment about Mark Driscoll’s sermon was my LAST comment, but the paragraphs rearranged when I submitted the comment.

Here’s the link to Driscoll’s powerful sermon (it’s not real long): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXKT8IPdvzA

Cheryl, as I pointed out to another commenter in my post # 43, it’s important to read Rom. 8:12-15 in the context of the entirety of that chapter. A contrast is made between those who live in the flesh (non-converts) vs. those who live by the Spirit (true believers). Paul points out that those who live in the flesh can’t please God….it is impossible.
(Rom. 8:8-9) Those who are in the flesh can not please God.”

Of those who live in the Spirit it says, “You however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. (Rom 8:10) But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is your life because of righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Christ from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through His Spirit who lives in you.

Cheryl, this sermon by Mark Driscoll is entitled: Why I Hate Religion .
It speaks very directly to this discussion. It is very clear and well-delivered. Dan Wallace has told me that he finds Driscoll’s theology to be right-on. I very much hope that you will listen to it.

Thanks for the discussion, Susan.

You see, Cheryl, there are only two categories given. Those who are of the flesh, or those who are the adopted sons and daughters of God, who are of the Spirit. You can’t be an adopted child of God….and then become un-adopted! Please do read all of Romans 8 carefully. It’s very encouraging to me, and should be to all true believers.

You said: “See, there is still a “requirement of the law” that needs to be fulfilled. Only when we are Christians, the SPIRIT does it through us, and we don’t do it ourselves.”

That requirement was fulfilled by Jesus who’s righteousness is imputed to us, Cheryl. In order to for us to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law we would have to be sinless. We aren’t. We’ve been condemned to face the wrath of God for our sin. It is ONLY because of what Jesus did on the cross that we have a way of escape from the future wrath of God. “The wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life.” When someone gives you a gift, what do you need to do to obtain it? You simply need to receive it…..you don’t have to do good things after you receive it in order to make sure it isn’t taken back from you. “Gift” is God’s word here.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved, through faith, and this is NOT from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God; it IS NOT FROM WORKS, so that no one can boast.” Excuse the caps, but I think that it is incredibly important that one understand this. If someone thinks that their salvation is in jeopardy if they sin…and don’t do enough good deeds, then I will say that such a person is not trusting Christ alone for their salvation. Why did Christ have to die?…..would then be a…

Susan, your position and that of Piper, that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer unto salvation is the view (among others) which Wright critiques in his latest book, Justification. Aside from the fact that the explicit concept is absent in Paul (Packer says the “meaning” is there) and the illogic of it I was wondering how you reconcile this idea with Paul’s concept of personal judgement (Rom 2; 2 Cor 5:10) and especially Jesus judgement, in Mt 25, clearly on the basis of a person’s works apart from their beliefs held? What do you think Jesus meant when he promised mercy to the merciful and forgiveness to those who forgive? Was he just playing around and we needed Paul to give us real soteriology? Seriously, when you are one day judged are you going to be surprised when God says, “Let’s look at what you’ve done Susan.”? Would you really stand up to God and say, but that’s not how I was taught, gimme Jesus’ credit!