Cherylu,

You wrote:

“…what makes you so absolutely certain that it is God’s will to immediately cure all cancer in this world, or even the cancer in children? Remember, that is one of the stipulations in the verses given for answered prayer.”
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For two reasons:

1. Because to answer such a prayer would demonstrate the love He claims for mankind:

/”For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son [Jesus], that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16/

It would glorify God, show His mercy and love, help the innocent in their suffering, and because any being (such as you or I) who is in a position to do so WOULD do so as a matter of moral character. It is consistent with Matt 7:12 and Luke 6:31

/”Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.”
Luke 6:30-31 (KJV)/

And that again is Jesus talking (sound familiar?), or shall I say God? As you can see, it is PERFECTLY consistent with everything He says is good. [That's how I know.] But if all that is wrong and does NOT represent His will, then what the heck did he give His only begotten Son FOR? Did He NOT so love the world…? And once again what Jesus says makes no sense.

2. Prayer makes no sense for God to say, “I will answer your prayers if you have faith and believe in me, but only if I was going to do it anyway!”
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People will pray to God to win a football game, but to cure cancerous children is not consistent with his will? (What kind of God is this?) According to item 1 above, it should be perfectly consistent with His will, if the bible is his word.

So then why do we both know that it won’t work?

It’s been a pleasure talking with you Cherylu.

Peace and prosperity to you.
AcesLucky

Aces,

I think I am jumping back in here against my better judgement! But what makes you so absolutely certain that it is God’s will to immediately cure all cancer in this world, or even the cancer in children? Remember, that is one of the stipulations in the verses given for answered prayer.

All sin and sickness and disease entered this earth after man sinned in the Garden of Eden and the death sentence was pronounced upon them. And God hasn’t promised to remove all of that until heaven. And yes, children are affected too. In fact, for Him to remove it now would be to remove at least part of the consequences of sin, would it not? And that is not all going to happen until Jesus comes again and we have the new heaven and the new earth.

And with that, I really am going to bow out of this discussion!

Cherylu,

You wrote:

“It is obvious that this conversation is going to go nowhere. So I am going to bow out. So long as you are going to absolutely insist that only what Jesus says Himself counts and not the rest of the Bible too, nothing I could say in reply to any of your statments above would do the least bit of good.”
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I apologize. My point was completely missed in the fray of establishing Jesus as the authority in biblical scripture. My point is a bit more sublime.

Let us suppose you are completely correct; that the rest of the bible counts equally as with the word of Jesus.

Now then, let us do some good. I know that we have to believe, have faith, be sincere, (and name any stipulation you can find to add as a requirement for prayer to work), and ask in the name of Jesus to glorify god; completely unselfish.

Question: If we find the most pure believers available, meeting ALL the criteria you specify from scripture, will they be able to ask that cancer be cured in every child within one week? Tonight?

Why is it that we KNOW it won’t happen, in spite of all the clauses that are met?

Remember, I am conceding that you and your position are right. (So don’t use me, as I have my doubts. But YOU, surely knows of someone who can qualify to pray.)

Will we get any action from God to meet this request in spite of every condition being met? The next time you go to church, ask your Pastor to hold prayer with the most pure of heart in the congregation, to ask that all cancer in non adults be gone by the end of the week. Do everything right.

Cherylu? Will you ask your God to show just a tiny bit of mercy towards these children? He can do that, right? And can’t you? Please do.

Let’s see if God’s Word works in real life.

The answer you receive… is what I’ve been trying to tell you.

Aces,

It is obvious that this conversation is going to go nowhere. So I am going to bow out. So long as you are going to absolutely insist that only what Jesus says Himself counts and not the rest of the Bible too, nothing I could say in reply to any of your statments above would do the least bit of good.

“I don’t think those verses that I gave you contradict what Jesus said at all. He did put stipulations on anwered prayer. For instance they had to ask in faith believing. The passage I quoted in James 1 says these prayers weren’t answered because these people doubted.”

I realized that instantly, but had to assume you knew that or wouldn’t have used that example. That is to say, I did not assume that Paul did not believe (since it would have made the conversation with god rather suspect from the start. You would not have used such an example, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt; which is why I prefaced my comment with “Presuming its a true event…”
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“The passage in James 4 says these folks didn’t get what they asked for because they asked with wrong motives and the verse in I John says we need to ask according to God’s will to have our prayers answered.”

I think you know that if it already has to be according to God’s will, (a cop-out, since no one can know what his will is), then what’s the point in prayer? Since god already knows what we want and will or will-not grant it according to what HE wants, no prayer can change anything.

Further, its not what Jesus said. Motives be damned. Jesus said “believe on him and have faith” and your prayers will be answered BY him and his father. Gee, if the sun can be stopped in mid-flight so that Joshua(?) could continue to kill, I think motive is rather moot. Besides, in real life, we clearly see that that’s not the case at all is it? Purity of heart, faith, and motive mean nothing in getting real-life prayers answered, does it? [If you need proof, I'll supply plenty.]
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“Is it truly abiding in Him and having His words abide in us to ask for things just so we can spend (or waste them) on our pleasures?”

Thankfully we can utilize this truth to cure cancer by the end of the week. Our motives would be unselfish, and it would glorify God the world over. Right? So why is it that we already know (in advance) that it won’t do anything? But Jesus can kill a fig tree because it’s god’s will? Turn water into wine because it’s god’s will? Walk on water because its god’s will? How do these glorify god or abide in His word?

You are not offering demonstrations, you’re offering excuses. If what you say works, why don’t you (or anyone) demonstrate a pure unselfish heart and go heal an amputee, or the many children in the cancer ward? Why don’t we see this from any church, (except the ones that have cemeteries in their back yard of failed faith feelings).

None of it works in real life regardless of the stipulations! But I will be more than happy for you to give a demonstration (not on a stage) in the cancer ward, where it matters.
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I’m sorry I’m late, I have to run…

Aces,

I have been thinking about your last comment to me.

I don’t think those verses that I gave you contradict what Jesus said at all. He did put stipulations on anwered prayer. For instance they had to ask in faith believing. The passage I quoted in James 1 says these prayers weren’t answered because these people doubted.

The passage in James 4 says these folks didn’t get what they asked for because they asked with wrong motives and the verse in I John says we need to ask according to God’s will to have our prayers answered. Remember, Jesus said if we abide in Him and His Words abide in us, we would ask and receive whatever we ask for. Is it truly abiding in Him and having His words abide in us to ask for things just so we can spend (or waste them) on our pleasures? Or if we ask for things that aren’t according to God’s will for us, are we really abiding in Him at that point? Jesus in other places teaches us over and over that He will provide us with what we need and give us good things–that is obviously his will for us–not necessarily giving us everything we want to make us happy so we can just use those things on ourselves. And those things are not always good things for us although we may think they are!

Also, Jesus said He would give us whatever we asked in His name. Does asking in His name mean just tacking His name unto the end of our prayer? Or does it mean asking in accordance with that name and all it stands for? If that is the case, asking just according to our pleasures or for things that are against His will doesn’t fit with what He has said either.

And the I Peter verse that talks about prayer being hindered if a husband does not live properly with His wife is not contradictory either. God has given instructions on how a man is to live with His wife. I am thinking particulaly of the verse in Ephesians 5 where God told husbands through Paul that they were to love their wives and give themselves for her as Christ loves the church and gave himself for it. Again, is a husband really abiding in Christ and His words abiding in him if he is failing to treat His wife properly? I don’t think so.

And by the way, Jesus seems to imply very strongly in Matthew 6 that a person that is a hypocrite when they pray and pray to be seen by men, won’t receive any answers from Him either. So there is one more “qualifier” to answered prayer that comes directly from the mouth of Jesus himself!

Cherylu

“I am curious, how do you explain the passage in II Corinthians 12:7-9 where Paul talks about asking God 3 times to remove an affliction from him and God told him, “No”?”
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Presuming its a true event and what Jesus said was also true, then the two events are contradictory. Either Jesus was wrong or the narrative is wrong. The third alternative is, of course, what you are saying, that what Jesus said is subject to revision by other narratives in the book.

Though I have never appreciated this approach because it is contrived, I can see why others are forced to accept it. You are forced to accept this position because you must reconcile the book as true in spite of contradictions.

I don’t accept it because in each instance Jesus could have just as easily stated what those other persons’ qualifiers were (as part of His), but he did the opposite. He made it emphatic what His qualifiers were on behalf of him and his father.

The reason qualifiers are needed to be found ELSEWHERE is because it is overtly demonstrable that the words by Jesus “as spoken and as emphasized” clearly do not work as promised! So off we go looking for reasons WHY they don’t work, forcing one to eventually conclude things like: Joe says otherwise in another text in another conversation, or it’s a parable or its only meant for certain people, etc..

Jesus doesn’t say “ask in my name and I will do it… unless you’ve been a bad boy and everybody by birth is a bad boy!” Find that phrase elsewhere in the bible, though, and Jesus is now off the hook, except now it makes what Jesus said moot.

You see, they don’t “refine” what Jesus says, they CONTRADICT it. And I don’t believe you fully accept your rationalization of the “contract” analogy.

Suppose Jesus came to you personally! Face to face, in real life, looks you directly in the eyes and says, “Cherylu do not go outside this Saturday or something terrible will happen that you will deeply regret.” Paul shows up on Friday and says “let’s go out tomorrow.” You say Jesus told you to stay inside on Saturday, but Paul says, “Oh, no, Jesus meant only between two and four o’clock.”

Given that such a qualifier could have been said by Jesus, would you accept Paul’s word over what Jesus actually said? Cherylu, I don’t think so! And I don’t think that you think so either.

Aces,

I am curious, how do you explain the passage in II Corinthians 12:7-9 where Paul talks about asking God 3 times to remove an affliction from him and God told him, “No”?

Maybe it would help your overall understanding of what Lisa and I are both tryng to say here if you look at this analogy. Please remember all analogies fail at some point, so keep that in mind with this one please? Anyway, how about thinking of the Bible, the New Testament in particular since that is what we are discussing, as a business contract. It is all written by one person as we are saying that the Bible is whether spoken by Jesus directly or given by Him to other men to be spoken to us.

In a contract there is always a body of clauses telling us how things will be done and the criteria that both parties must hold to if the contract is signed. For the purpose of my analogy, these clauses are the direct words of Jesus that you are referring to above.

However, if you read the contract on to the end, you are very likely to find qualifiers to those clauses, nuances that will change the meaning of the clauses given in certain circumstances. The “If this, then this”, type of thing. That doesn’t mean the first clauses of the contract were a lie does it? Nor does it mean that we can’t trust the first clauses of the contract. It only means that we need to read the WHOLE thing and understand the full body of the contract to fully understand how it is meant to work.

Remember the Scripture from John in Jesus own words that I quoted above where He said He had much more to teach them then He had at that point? Remember that was said right before His death. I believe He simply had not at that point given them all of those nuances and “If” statements that a person will only know if he reads the contract all of the way to the end and doesn’t just read the first few clauses and then believe he understands the contract in it’s entirety.

I hope that analogy might at least help you to understand a little be better what we are trying to say.

Hi Lisa,

Jesus says ABCD and it is the inerrant word of a god.
Joe says ABCW, and that’s what Jesus really means.

You are saying Jesus meant ABCW because Joe.
I am saying Jesus meant ABCD because Jesus.

If you are correct and Jesus really means ABCW then Jesus’ words “as spoken” are not inerrant because ABCW does not equal ABCD.

And you are also suggesting that since Joe implies Jesus doesn’t know what he’s talking about, then Jesus doesn’t know what he’s talking about because Joe said it. Why, then, do we care what Jesus says if what matters is what Joe says? And since Jesus is God, and Joe is not, you have elevated Joe above God.

Do you see how your reasoning fails the very theory you’re trying to follow? And if John contradicts Joe, then now follow John? Do we follow the furthest person from the source? (Bad idea!)

In your system, the “book” is in charge (vis-à-vis 2nd Timothy) and not the God. The “book” however constantly contradicts itself. This makes truth RELATIVE if at all. But notice, in every passage where Jesus is doing the actual talking there is NO contradiction.

Thus, if you are correct:

Then, “truth” in the bible is RELATIVE (if at all) because it is not actual (standing on its own, like a fact) but subject to any modifier that comes along, like Joe or John in the book.

If the word of Jesus, the word of God “as spoken”, cannot be taken as true (as fact that stands on its own), then how can ANY word from the bible be taken as true?

PS: your theory is based entirely on the premise that 2nd Timothy is valid. Never mind the fact that it makes the bible circular and thus causes (as you have) the logical fallacy known as “circular reasoning” or “begging the question” [Ex: the bible cannot be false because the bible says it cannot be false.]; but 1st & 2nd Timothy (and Titus) are believed by many theological scholars to be forgeries attempting to “settle doctrinal disputes within the church.”

I believe your faith will not permit you to accept such a conclusion so I won’t bother you with references. Just know that my commitment is not against the bible, Koran, God, Jesus, or whatever… My only commitment in this discussion is to truth.

Aces, your comment makes no sense. In what way does believing the passages where Jesus is not speaking directly contradict what he says? No one is saying Jesus’ words are not true, except for you.