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Rethinking Sanctification Because I Have To
by C Michael PattonSeptember 8th, 2009
148 Comments
Ten years ago I had it all figured out. Theology was perfect. My passions filled with the progressively growing belief that I was going to make a difference—a big difference. If people were in need, I could fix it . . . or at least direct them to the right way to fix it. I had all the answers. I was sanctified and I was being sanctified . . . fast (like Ferrari fast).
Fast forward ten years…
Things are much different now. I don’t have quite as much figured out. Passions are secure, but have been nuanced by the scars of my soul. Things I was so confident about before now make my spirit blush with frustration, salted with a bit of shame and bitterness. Fixing things is not as easy as it seemed back then. Complications have arisen. People are complicated. I am complicated.
Last week as I discussed spiritual growth with a discouraged Christian gal, I began to see my own plight in hers. She could not understand why she is not a “good” person. “I have been a Christian for thirty years and I feel as if I am less sanctified now than ever. I don’t understand. Maybe I am not even saved.”
As I reflected on this throughout the day, I realized that she and I are the same. Wait… Let me attempt to give you my previous definition of sanctification:
Sanctification n. The state of experiencing growth that is measured by becoming more Christ-like. Interpretation: You are getting better and better. You are not as mean as you were before. You don’t complain as much. You have a better outlook on life. You are never depressed. Your problems are dealt with in a more mature manner: you know, the way Christ dealt with them. Oh, and you also have more figured out than you did before.
Ten years after having this conception, I reflect on my own condition and find myself filled with frustration. Sure, I am not controlled by many of the sins that controlled me before, but I will have to call a strike on all the signs of sanctification listed above. New sins have arisen. Sins of personality. Grumpiness. Complaining. The inability to react to situations with a calm trust. Quick tempered. And you know what? There are some people I just don’t like and cannot be nice to. Sheesh, twenty years ago I was voted the nicest person at John Marshall High. Don’t believe me? Check the Yearbook. Finally (and you’re not going to believe this), I am progressively finding it harder and harder to not make up excuses about going to church on Sunday mornings, unless I am teaching or preaching—then I am gung-ho!
Why aren’t I getting “better”? I don’t know. I could blame it on so many things, but blame would just be another sign of my sorry state. (Don’t unsanctified people blame a lot? Adam?).
However, this has caused me to reassess myself and my view of sanctification. What does it mean to be made “holy” (the word from which we get “sanctification”)?
New life stages present you with new ways to show off your fallen nature. Kids. Four kids. Four kids under ten. Marriage. Death. Sadness. Time allows for more disappointment in others and yourself. You simply have more baggage to deal with than before. Oh, and then there are those times when you get depressed. Wait! Christians are not supposed to be able to get depressed. Especially those who teach theology. Goodness, what use is all that I do if I am now, ten years later, starting to get depressed? I used to be able to straighten depressed people out with a wave of my magic wand of proper biblical interpretation! Guess that does not work quite as well as I thought.
Ten years later, either I am not being sanctified (which is possible) or I need to rethink sanctification.
My hopes and thoughts are here:
Sanctification n. The process of Christian development that has more to do with how dependent you have become on the Lord, not necessarily about being “good.” Sanctification has more to do with how often you are broken before him, not your stoic ability to deal with pain. Sanctification has more to do with a recognition of your weaknesses than of your strengths. Sanctification has more to do with repentance than with the things that don’t require repentance. In the end, sanctification amounts to the progressive movements you make toward the side of God because you have no where else to go.
But then there are the fruits of the spirit. Oh yeah, those. Doesn’t joy cancel out depression? Doesn’t peace defeat irritability? Doesn’t faith do away with being scared that something bad is going to happen to my kids? No perfect little red bow on this post.
I am trying to rethink sanctification because I have to.
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148 Comments
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Thanks for this.
I have been a Christian for 30 years and get down about the lack of growth. I am, however, encouraged by Philippians 3:12-16. I understand it as saying that the more we mature, the more we are aware of our need of Christ.
Don’t be ashamed of getting of your maturity.
Steve
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Thanks for this.
I have been a Christian for 30 years and get down about the lack of growth. I am, however, encouraged by Philippians 3:12-16. I understand it as saying that the more we mature, the more we are aware of our need of Christ.
Don’t be ashamed of your maturity.
Steve
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Dang. That article on relationshipism was so accurate!
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Michael,
I believe your second definition is as off base as your first. You said, “The process of Christian development that has more to do with how dependent you have become on the Lord, not necessarily about being “good.” “ In you theological construct, you have acquired salvation, and therefore, you are struggling to fit sanctification into the system. You know it belongs, but struggle to find where.
In the Latin and Protestant West salvation is set apart from sanctification. The two are seen as exclusive events. I believe your struggle with sanctification, in both definitions, as being rooted in this separation (justification, regeneration, sanctification, glorification…..). However, salvation is a process to be worked out in fear and trembling. Today, minimization runs amuck, a result of sola fide: all you have to do is have faith (ABCs,etc.). Christianity is maximalistic, everything is necessary for salvation. I am saved by admitting my sins. I saved by believing. I am saved by confessing Christ. I am saved by my faith. I am saved by my works. I am saved when baptized. I am saved when partaking of the Eucharist. I am saved through continual repentance. I am saved through fasting. I am saved through prayer. I am saved by charity……
“Christianity is a teaching about the gradual extirpation of the passions, about the means and conditions of the gradual acquisition of virtues.” — Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky of Kiev.
I write this not to highjack this thread into a soteriological debate, but I believe your struggle is ultimately a soteriological problem.
mike s
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^&*(&*^()*&^()*&^&*^(&*%^(*(&()*^)*&^(&*%^*&%$*(&%^*)&^)*&^(*%(&*%^*(&^%*(&^%(&^%(&^(&*^)(&%^()*&%()*&
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If you really want to reinvestigate/chagne position on sanctification, then read “Sanctification; Christ in Action” by Harold Senkbeil, sold through Northwest Publishing House. It will change everything you have ever thought about sanctification.
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First, I appreciate your openness. Denial has never been useful in serving God, but that has not kept many of us from using it freely. My concern is this: I see no biblical analysis whatever in your post. That’s like trying to drive from Texas to Alaska without ever looking at a map or a road sign.
Without reference to a truth from above us, all we have left is the usual postmodern mishmash of our (allegedly) equally valid opinions. That promises to take us nowhere.
Blessings,
-Barry
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Hi, Michael.
‘Well, several thoughts have come buzzing into my brain. But it seems you’re most likely to be benefitted by my just sharing very briefly two reflections – what I’ll name the ‘Objective’ and the ‘Subjective.’ ( The blessing to me of your teachings on the Objective & Subjective Bases of Justification!)
Plus I’ve also gotta state that I don’t read others’ posts….Please try to make allowances.
1. We’re to be in prayer for you. I am. God wants this for you.
2. ‘Seems to me the life verse of all ‘born-agains’ should be “He must increase. I must decrease.”
‘Praying God’s richest blessings in Christ Jesus upon you,
Your Friend,
Rich
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I went through this about 10 years ago. It seemed my heart must be freally corrupt because all that came out of my mouth was unclean and it was never my intention to be hurtful. So, was I not saved? After being a follower of Christ for so long?
For me, the journey has been one of reading the verses speaking of suffering. Christ said of Paul: I will show him how much he has to suffer for my Name.
Collosians and Galatians says our sufferings fill up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ. wow. We never focused on those before. Our sufferings are needed by God? Scripture says so.
Christianity: deny myself (afflict, mortify, which I must do of my own free will) and take up my cross (God’s fatherlike chastisements that I must willingly accept as good for me) and follow Christ ( not my will in all things- in how many things? all).
This is Chrsitianity. A great tribulation. He who perseveres to the end will be saved.
Joy comes with the suffering for the sake of the body! They go together.
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Very good article. You have indeed struck a nerve that needed to be struck. We all struggle, but are too often “too spiritual” to admit it.
After all, we don’t want others to think badly of us.
It is refreshing to be reminded that we are human and all of us struggle to humble ourselves before the grace of our Savior.
http://pastoralmusings.com/2009/09/10/sanctification/
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Thank you so much for this post. I have been feeling the same way for quite a while now. I question whether I really have saving faith or not because I just don’t feel like I’m making very much progress in my santification. However, like you wrote, I do recognize my failings more, and realize how sinful I am, and how far from the mark I fall.
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Mark, would you suggest the same thing to Paul in Romans 9 or the Psalmist in 51?
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Michael, your Blog raises the significant issue of matching our personal experience with what is objectively known about God through Scripture and natural revelation.
Experientially, the adage that, “The more you know, the more you realise you don’t know” seems to have a ring of truth. It seems that the more we learn about our Lord Jesus, the more we discover how far short we fall of His Glory as your bloggers have stated.
Increasing dependence upon God comes from a growing realisation that the ultimate source of all goodness and the fruit of the Spirit is all from God and never from us (i.e. the flesh). That we continue to yearn with an increasing appetite for Jesus (and to become like Him in character) is I’m sure the means by which God has intended for us walk in greater submission to His will, transforming us to be like Him according to His schedule and according to His timetable rather than yours or mine.
I am encouraged by verses like:
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. Gal 2:20
We have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. … We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. 2 Co 4:7,10-11
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 2 Co 3:18
For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life. Ro 5:10
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it. 1 Th 5:23
There was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak (in the flesh), then I am strong (in Spirit). 2 Co 12:7b-10
It’s refreshing to know that you and your bloggers struggle with the same realisation and disatisfaction. Frequently I am disappointed with myself, even discouraged because of my un-Christ-like attitude and responses. I guess we are poor judges of the transformational change that God is making within us. My job is to trust and obey – it’s His Life in me that transforms me; Thank goodness that’s His responsibility and task and…
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Cadis,
“I don’t think you can redefine and re-adjust on experience, can you?”
Not supposed to according to some. But I am and do sometimes. I think we all do.
Experience cannot be separated from the way you think, otherwise it is a insufficient worldview.
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Like many businesspersons, I receive more emails each day than I can read. For some reason, the Lord prompted me to read this post and all of the ensuing responses. I am enriched by them all.
Regarding sanctification – I grew up in a very traumatic home and because of the sin dwelling in me, I chose many “broken cisterns” to aleviate the pain. Christ drew me to Himself my freshman year in college and I thought I had found the answer to all of my problems – including my horrific sins (many of which are not mentionable in most churches). While I longed for sanctification, my experience was one of great disconnect – not willing to come clean to fellow believers – while desperately needing loving Truth. My double life was killing me. (As an aside, I hid my sin so well that I have been asked 3 times to be an elder at our well-known evangelical far N. Dallas church). Christ has worked miraculously over the last year – wherein I no longer have to pretend to have all the answers, live a spotless life or think only pure thoughts. Mine is now a life of confession – admitting my failures and asking God to have His way with me. I know God’s presense in ways I could never have imagined. I am confident of my salvation (because of Scripture that assures me that it is not my behavior but Christ’s sacrifice that qualifies me for heaven). My life is still very messy – but Christ is here in and and with me. Sanctification is His work. As I abide (stay present) under His wing, I am amazed how he is changing my heart. And that is, I believe what sanctification is really about – heart change / willingness to stay close to Him / allow for and/or seeking the conviction of His Spirit / and crying out to Abba to conform my heart.
Regarding departure from faith and or church: So many churches talk about living authentically but do not seem to know what to do with sinners! Holding up spiritual ideals and quoting Scripture did not draw me to repentence. (But, the kindness of God did). Just because believers in Christ do not love well or manifest the grace we should does not mean eternal life found only in Christ is not True and worthy of belief. That said, lack of love, mercy and grace reflect poorly on Christ and the church – thus the many admonitions to be Christ like. Our problem boils down to what Paul Tripp calls “apple nailing”. If I am not able to deliver good fruit, then I can just run to the local market, buy some bright red and delicious apples and nail them to my tree trunk. That way, I will look like I have what is called for. The start of my repentance was disavowing my apple nailing and allowing my fruit (usually unattractive and unedible) to hang limply from my tree. When I did, God whispered into my soul – “well done, my son” I love you like you are… and the miracle I promise you is life in my Son. Now that you are honest and confessing that your fruit is rotten, I can begin to pump life into you and behold, the fruit will become what I…
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Apologies Michael for the length.
The rest of the blog:
Thank goodness that’s His responsibility and task and not mine. That’s why He’s our Saviour.
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Thanks for sharing this. From a Lutheran perspective, your “more mature” definition of sanctification rings more closely to what we teach and experience. Been down that same road; and I have a few more years and a few more scars as evidence of that.
An excellent book for this is: “Quest for Holiness” by Adolph Koeberle, where he examines in depth what you have wrestled with here.
Thanks again.
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Mine will be pretty short -
After 27 years of belonging to Him, I feel less “good” than ever, but I do understand why — the more I learn of God, of Christ, the more my own sin becomes visible to me; and the sins that I once dismissed as “not so bad,” if abominable to God, are now abominable to me.
I would venture to say that the “new” sins you speak of, Michael, are not new at all – our God of grace reveals more “layers of the onion,” as it were, as we grow up into Christ. The sin was always there – perhaps layers deep – and unrealized as sin until the “layers” on top of it are peeled back.
I have only to ponder my definition of sin 25 years ago vs. today, to see how narrow the road has become that I gladly travel! Only His grace – I am STILL not any closer to deserving salvation than I was as a raw heathen. But as I love Him more, and strive to know His character and holiness, my own sin becomes more and more sinful.
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Dear Brother in Christ,
I am glad that yoiu are revisiting the doctrine of sanctification. There is much confusion out “there” and in “here”. We, at least I have, tote around unbiblical and unsound definitios of key Biblical doctrines, and it hamstrings us as Christians. I know that in many contemporary (last 50 years) Evangelical circles the “Old Paths” are not much known or appreciated. So, here are some “Old paths” on the matter. Hope they help!
Westminster Shorter Catechism:
Q. 35. What is sanctification?
A. Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.
Westminster confession of Faith
CHAPTER XIIIOf Sanctification
They who are effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part: whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.
III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; and so, the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
All of Grace,
Jon, an older fella
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Thanks Michael for the post. As the years have gone by, I too find myself crankier and struggling with judgemental attitudes and wanting comfort so I can get through things. Balanced against this I also find a deep desire for gut level honesty with the Lord and as you mentioned, being just broken before Him. I am tired of those voices that say in essence, cheer up, it’ll be okay! Maybe it will and maybe it won’t, but that is not the point. It is increasingly more important for me to be honest and intimate with Jesus. That’s what I want, even if I am crushed with disappointment in myself and my attitudes.
There is a prayer I learned while going through the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises and a line in it that says “On each of my dyings shed your light and your love…” That is what I desire.
Thanks again for your thoughts today.
pb
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Michael,
Thank you for sharing your heart with us. I too find myself struggling more lately with my “condition” instead of my “position”.
I know that I am a child of God and will never be separated from that position but I am disappointed with people and let that fog my walk with God. If just briefly, we take our eyes off God and put them on Man, we set ourselves up for disappointment.
I can only caution you that the sinful world is watching and waiting for you to fall. The devil waits too. Be strong!
I pray that you will have strength, comfort and restful sleep while you continue to grow in Christ.
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Hi again Michael,
I was reading the comments… and everybody has their own idea… attempting to explain away all the difficulties involved with the notions of regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification, etc. Some said the trouble lay with relationshipism, inclusivism (or conversely exclusivism), minimization, realization, dissatisfaction, presumption, tribulation, reconstruction, chastisement, discipleship, etc. This post of yours might provoke more comments than any other.
AT THE CLUB by Logan Pearsall Smith
“It’s the result of Board School Education–”
“It’s the popular Press—”
“It’s the selfishness of the Working Classes—”
“It’s the Cinema—”
“It’s the Jews—”
“Paid Agitators!—”
“The decay of Faith—”
“The disintegration of Family Life—”
“I put it down,” I said, “to Sun-Spots. If you want
to know,” I went inexorably on, “if you ask me the
cause of all this modern Unrest—”
IONS by Logan Pearsall Smith
“Self-determination,” one of them insisted.
“Arbitration!” cried another.
“Co-operation?” suggested the mildest of the party.
“Confiscation!” answered an uncompromising female.
I, too, became slightly intoxicated by the sound of these
vocables. And were they not the cure for all our ills?
“Inebriation!” I chimed in, “Inundation, Afforestation,
Flagellation, Transusbstantiation, Co-education,
Co-operation!”
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Larry – I liked what you said: Mine is now a life of confession.
That simple statement puts it all into perspective. It acknowledges our perpetual tendency towards sin — our admittance of that sin — and humbling ourselves before a holy God in repentance for the sin our bodies constantly tempt us with. It reminds me so much of Paul’s trial in this area — desiring to sin yet wishing he didn’t desire to do so. Rom. 7:18-etc.
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Wonderful post , Michael.
I commented to a friend recently, that it seems that the Christian life doesn’t get easier but harder as we get older.
It seems that often when I pray for God’s help with a particular sin (i.e, my temper or lack of patience) he purposely does not answer that prayer. Why? I think (Not that I know the mind of God) that He refuses to be a heavenly bell hop. He wants our cry for help to come out of a genuine desparation for Him and his will.
His word is not a manual to be opened when we need help and then tucked under the couch for future reference.
His Word IS His son and He is revealed in the Word. It is Him we need and should desire not just right behavior.
I too have had to rethink sanctification and it is much muddier now that 20 years ago in my thinking.
It is encouraging to know that even though we don’t fully understand the process , He does.
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Wow! You tapped a gusher with this one Michael. I can’t even begin to digest all the permutations. This has rapidly become one of my favorite blogs. Love the give and take and the civility.
Some of favorites from the archives are:
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/calvinists-often-make-the-worst-calvinists-2/
because I am Calvinist and don’t want to be stereotyped
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/category/creationevolution/
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-gospel-of-the-young-earth/#more-365
because I haved never been all that worked-up over this issue and am not sure what I believe other than :”evolution is a crock of feces.”
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/
because I have been an atypical charismatic/continuationist
The most intrigueing threads of this post were:
1)the story of Mr. Babinski. My quote for him:
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “All right, then, have it your way.”
C. S. Lewis
2) Dennis Elenburg link to “Thinker/Feeler” artricle. http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/Truth/GodOfTruth.htm
This could be a whole discussion by itself. Multiple discussions. This article could fuel a year’s worth of blogging!!!!
PS I just started my own rudimentery blog. Not much there yet. All comers welcome. http://godisindog.blogspot.com/
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Michael: “I was wondering if you ever doubt that you made the right decision leaving Christianity.”
My decision was part of an organic process. It felt increasingly less honest of me to recite/repeat beliefs that I had increasing doubts about, from the inspiration of the Bible to the resurrection.
Or I could reply in this manner, does a sane person doubt his decision to leave a mad house? I mean “mad” in the sense of confused and confusing. Neither is such confusion cleared up by the fact that Christians of nearly all denominations today recite the Apostle’s Creed because churches continue to split over far subtler differences of opinion (sometimes believing that those with rival interpretations are indubitably damned or on the road to leading themselves and others astray), and the creed itself has varying interpretations depending on whether one is conservative, moderate, or liberal.
It all sounded to me like so much “pious talk.” All the explanations offered for the truth and perfection of my faith. My faith died the death of a thousand qualifications, because I had fully embraced a particular religious viewpoint and resisted a total overhaul of my mental pathways and arguments. So as questions arose I began qualifying my beliefs further and further till they were whittled down to the conclusion that I could no longer could say I believed as I once did.
If I pine for anything it is for the calm certainty I once convinced myself I had. (Though even that came at the price of manic-depression, the joy of my salvation and fear of others damnation, which also seems to be part of the attraction of a faith in which there are only two options, eternal blessedness or eternal punishment.) Though I have since discovered another sort of calmness that comes simply with age and wisdom and the recognition that we’re all in this together.
I might ask you a question as well. How do you account for the fact that most people stay put, become aclimatized or imprinted on their faith and culture? Mormons and Muslims and Buddhists can live their entire lives quite attached to their faith. Mormons in fact give more money to charity on average than any other Christian group according to nationwide poles. They stand out in preaching the necessity of tithing. While on the other hand there’s the “garbage eaters” sect of fundamentalist inerrantist King James Christians, who live on next to nothing, owning next to nothing, going around the country preaching wherever and whenever they can, memorizing the Bible, speaking in Bible verses with other members of the sect. There’s also Christian disciplinarian sects that have “camps” in the U.S. and other countries in which unruly children of Christian parents are taught more “godly” ways of behaving. On the other hand there’s people and entire universities whose minds change.
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I’ve been in ministry for 35 years. Pastor a large church. My life verse has been 1 Cor 14:1 (Pursue love above all else)
I find it refreshing to know that I’m not alone in the struggle. It seems the longer I am in ministry the tougher it gets. Could also be the fatigue factor.
What I think about these days is…. am I loving God and loving others more or less that i did this time last year? What does that look like? That is my life goal….and yet it seems so elusive. I want to finish well.
Not discouraged, just perplexed. Great blog… I’m not alone in the struggle towards holiness.
Thanks Michael for your input into my life and ministry! We’re supporting you both spiritually and financially.
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Edward T. Babinski,
Do you know of any apostates like yourself who became Christians after their interlude with apostasy?
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“Collosians and Galatians says our sufferings fill up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ. wow. We never focused on those before. Our sufferings are needed by God? Scripture says so.”
An earlier poster mentioned the above. I come back to it as a decade ago I suddenly stumbled on this part of Scripture. I really could not fit it into my Chritian understanding. That started my on a deep re-read of Scripture and I find what some might call contradictions and others would argue are differing nuances taht a beleiving Chritian can piece together to make sense.
I was not able to piece things together however and ceased to be Chritian – a years long process.
I still beleive in God as much as ever and that life continues after death.
I just came to the conclusion that we can never even approach a true understanding of the truth – its like trying to speciically define a 4 dimensional world in 3 dimesional terms.
My religious outlook has become more inclusive since – as others have mentioned above. I believe Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and others are all on the same journey as Christians. Struggling for a truth that, in our 3 -dimesional material world we can never really know. At that point I cane to respect all formal relions but chose to become a believer who does not profess a formal religion. I think each religion – from Chritianity to islam to Juadiam and the rest all have kernels of the truth but can never have the whole truth.
I think your experience of having to re-look the meaning of sanctification because it does not make sense anymore to you – in the way you’ve previously understood it – is similar to what I went through when I started to relook teachings I’d thought I understood for a decade or more but which suddenly did not nicely fit anymore. It was a difficult period for me but a necessary one.
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Ed, I am not able to change this thread, even though the questions you bring up are wonderful and, indeed, confusing to me as well. Obviously, they are not faith stoppers for me like they are for you, but I have been where you were and have asked the same questions. The difference is that I cannot deny the historicity of Christianity even though there are subjective difficulties that create certain perceived inconsistencies. If I were to deny the faith based upon an it-just-seems-like-things-should-go-this-way approach, then I would go with the eternity of hell and why God does not predestine everyone. However, I don’t feel good about creating or denying reality the it seems to be simply because I would do things differently. If it is true, it is true even if God created all people to be damned as a part of a cosmic game. Truth is what I seek first, not comfort.
Again, thanks for answering the questions, but since this thread is about a specific topic and there is a lot of activity, I don’t want it to get side tracked at all by a different conversation between you and me.
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sanctification is just a “head game” for anyone not utterly anchored to”justification.” ( to be “declared” as righteous, while the sin nature is still live and well). Living by faith, we look through our actual “condition” and see that God always sees the Righteousness of Christ. God has intended for this paradox to separate Christianity from all the religions which focus on the condition of the individual.
As we rest in faith, we develope the confidence that, as Paul wrote, “It is not I, but Christ that liveth in me, and the the life i live in the flesh i live by the faith in the Son Of God that…….
Remember, in Romans, it took 7 chapters to lay the groundwork to get to Sanctification in Ch. 8. thanks dale
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Ed,
Far from “Truth Unites …’s” remarks, I believe God is more than happy to bear your questioning of Him. And I am sure that He has much better answers than we can imagine. Maybe, like Jesus said, we are just not ready to understand spiritual things.
Your questions deserve answers. Nonetheless, they are not sufficient to rule out God’s existence nor His authority to do things His way regardless of whether we understand or not.
I have asked myself many of the questions you have asked yourself and I have definitely strayed quite far from center. I am only making my way back (or is it Him having found His lost sheep and bringing it back?). One thing I rest assured on: What He starts, He finishes.
Don’t stop asking. And, in His mercy, ask Him to give you answers.
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A couple of thoughts.
One, we are sanctified the minute we trust Christ. We are made holy, blameless, and stainless. God doesn’t look at us in the same way as he did before. This ought to give us a sense of relief and great joy that God does not see us as we see ourselves.
Two, there is a process of progressive sanctification in which God continually chips away at our imperfections so that we may reflect his love, mercy, kindness, patience, etc. to the world.
He allows all sorts of things to happen – from kids being born and dying, the diseases that we contract, relationships that break up, etc. to chip away our selfishness, dependence on others things beside him etc.
This is one of the reasons that I love the Psalms. They are a window into our pain and suffering as we go through life so that we may find comfort when we need it. (Psalm 23 for example)
Life ebbs and flows. Ecclesiastes 3 reminds us of that and is a great comfort to me.
Peace,
David
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I so reasonate with your thoughts Michael. Thank you for putting them to paper and for also leaving off the red bow.
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After reading your thoughts, I’m reminded of some very valuable thinking that I gathered from reading the Puritans. It goes something like this: the longer a Christian lives – the focus, and hence understanding, of his or her “heart” condition becomes less fuzzy and much clearer due to his or her real life experience. Their theology improves. The more he or she realizes what a moral cesspool of a heart they possess (Jer. 17:9), the understanding of their need for the person and work of Jesus Christ is greatly improved. Humility ensues.
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Perhaps the last “Definition” of sanctification is the best. Being male, and being an American I (and many others) tend to be task, or results oriented. I wonder if we should be more process/relationally focused. Perhaps sanctification isn’t a result but an effort – not so much a goal as a filter to direct our intentions/efforts.
We like to think we can “Fix” things. It’s clear, we can see results/progress. We may even get some measure of satisfaction from feeling that our “Progress” is measureable, in a way. “I used to be only this holy – now I’m THIS holy…” What if we shouldn’t fixate on product, and instead concentrate on process. After all, the saints suffered so, do we focus on the fact that the big ones died young of horrible deaths – or do we focus on their faithfulness, and how they related to their experiences and others?
What if sanctification wasn’t a result, but a method?
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Dear Michael,
Thank you for speaking the words I knew were in me but that I couldn’t find on my own.
Even in my years of arrogant assuredness, I still knew my ugly potential. I just really believed that I would never act on it. After 26 years walking w/the Lord, I reached critical mass in my life and those words of warning from Scripture, “be careful if you think you stand lest you, too, fall….” proved accurate. I guess I really thought I stood because, boy……. did I fall.
Being someone that people admired and looked up to as Christian example, my fall from grace hurt a lot of people, including the ones I love more than life itself; something that will cause me to live out the rest of my days with heart-wrenching regret.
But here’s the flip-side that many other “strong” Christians who are like I once was, almost can’t stand to admit. Even in the midst of my new-found lowness, God still reached me with His hand of mercy………. and blessed me. An act that I believe was meant to powerfully rock my world to get my attention back on Him, also served to simultaneously show His inexplicable mercy & love for me very personally.
Like you said of yourself, I too, used to have a Biblical answer for everything. I still do for the most part, that is to say what I believe to be the Biblical answer but I hope there is much more humility and grace seasoning my beliefs now.
What I do know is this: Even when I was doing what I knew was completely against what God wanted me to do, I did not feel hate for God. I still loved Him & felt love for Him even as I sinned. I wanted to want to stop but it was too strong and I finally stopped trying to resist. Not in a spiritual way but in my human need for vigor & passion, I felt alive for the first time in a very long time. Having since repented, I pray to have that same vigor & passion but now in a God-pleasing way.
Some would say that IF I actually did love God I would have obeyed Him. True; but it is also true that Paul loved God even though he readily admitted to struggling with doing what he knew he should not do. But I think this is the key – he was aware he shouldn’t and he really, honestly, deeply, & truly did not want to do the wrong things… even though he chose to do them. Often we think he just wrestled with being tempted to do certain wrong things but Scripture quotes Paul as saying the things he does not want to do, “that I do.“ So then could it be that the very wrestling is evidence of the sanctification process in us & the Spirit in us can/will serve to draw us/lead us precisely because we do love God?
I don’t know; I sort of feel as though I’m rambling now but I do hope I conveyed, at the very least, gratitude for your candor, empathy for your wondering and encouragement that perhaps this place you find yourself at is not so bad after all. As for me, somehow I feel a little better than back when I knew it all.
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This is where an unhealthy preoccupation with a Wesleyan view of human nature and sin leads. It is when we realize our massively fallen condition, and our propensity toward rebellion and self-centeredness that we will be more loving toward fallen humans, and less self-righteous, and more content where God has us at the moment. We are always striving toward holiness, but we will always come into contact with our real selves in moments of introspection and despair. I believe Romans seven is a reality for a spirit filled believer, and not a pre-Christian Paul. It is also not an excuse for us to be a “Carnal” Christian, but it is the reality of understanding our condition before a holy God. When we grow in the understanding of His holiness, and our sin, we will grow in our appreciation for the cross of Jesus and the need for His sacrifice on our behalf. AS sson as we lose sight of His holiness or our sin, we will mitigate the need for the cross in our lives and His grace will only be a cliche. It is then that we turn our sanctification over to our “Good” deeds, and not His ongoing work in our lives. This will ultimately lead to either a self-righteousness or despair.
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Thanks Michael. What a great post! Exactly right and encouraging to know that I am not the only one who thinks this way. Thanks for all you do and the Credo House. I hope to do something like it here in Sacramento. So I can fix people of course. Lol!
Blessings,
Aaron
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Author: Truth Unites… and DividesComment: “Edward T. Babinski, Do you know of any apostates like yourself who became Christians after their interlude with apostasy?”
Yes. Though I also know of cases in which someone had an “interlude with Christianity” and then left the fold. I also agree that few people would care to consider their present beliefs a mere interlude. But changes of all sorts have been recorded.
What interests me most are cases in which people (and organizations such as major universities) of high caliber, deep study and religious devotion) were dragged kicking and screaming from their founding beliefs. Sort of like C. S. Lewis but in reverse.
As for C. S. Lewis’ own testimony, it’s not nearly as close to that sort of testimony as he depicted it. He read Chesterton (apologetics light) and went to the zoo and recalls becoming a Christian on the way back, following in the footsteps of his brother and also Dom Bede Griffith, and some others at university. Then in his first Christian novel, The Pilgrim’s Regress, Lewis constructed straw man after straw man so he could blow them all down and convince himself he had made the right decision. He stuck with it, though after running across George McDonald and one Catholic mystic he seriously considered universalism, but admitted he could not because Jesus spoke so plainly about unending punishment. Lewis also viewed Genesis and Job as stories, myths. And he remarked on the tension between believing in the inerrancy of Scripture and the goodness of the Deity depicted therein, in which case he opted for errancy rather than an evil Deity. And he was inclusive, believing that people of other religions could be anonymous “Christians” and let into heaven. Lastly, Lewis also noted that Jesus was so human he could speak a false prophecy concerning the soon return of the Son of Man. All in all, Lewis was quite the humanist, and I appreciate him, though his close life long friend and fellow convert, Dom Bede Griffiths went even further in the direction of inclusivity, getting Lewis to make even further admissions in that respect in personal letters composed soon before Lewis’ death.
But getting back to your question concerning people who flirted with agnosticism/atheism, there’s the former Pentecostal minister in my book Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists. Left Pentecostalism and Christianity for a few years, then came back on his own terms, starting a new church/denomination all on his own. Another such person is named Jordan, who apparently was a member of an atheist group for a few years, but heard a Christian apologist speak in person and on the radio, and converted. However, coincidence of coincidences, that same Christian apologist phoned me soon after my book appeared to let me know he had deconverted.
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Author: C Michael PattonComment: “Ed, Thanks for the reply. ‘Or I could reply in this manner, does a sane person doubt his decision to leave a mad house? I mean ‘mad’ in the sense of confused and confusing.” Too much of a conversation stopper for me.”
I feared it might be, but I meant it in the sense that everything seems normal to the people on the “inside,” whether they be snake handling Christians, Mormons, garbage eaters, Adamites (worshiped in the nude), Skoptzie (cut off their testicles), or “fools for Christ” who used to disrupt services, or Donatists (who were certain their church was purer because none of their bishops had committed apostasty under coercion during the Roman persecutions).
I could go on, the sects are endless, Arians, Socians, Unitarians, Arminians, Calvinists, Quakers, Shakers, Puritans, Catholics, Orthodx, some flat earth Christians, some defenders of geocentrism, many sects, a multitude of disagreements, all citing the Bible and the Spirit’s wisdom given them for interpreting it the right way. And the many many excommunications, exiles and other adventures that took place as a result.
But from the inside each member of each sect saw their’s as the one true church or the closest approximation thereof, and felt safer and further from hell as a result.
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Regarding Edward Babinski’s comments on universalism. Origen, considered a church father, went down the path of universal salvation and saw hell as ultimately a temporary state.
Of course, his side did not win out. However, if you look at the early “heresies” there were in the immediate decades/century or two after the death of the last apostle, there were many varied interpretations of “the way”.
The concept of the Trinity as it evovled left many doubters. I’ve read that one reason some Eastern Christians so easily converted to Islam was because it’s teachings aligned more closely with some of the “heresies” which seem to have been especially present in the East.
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Author: C Michael PattonComment: “Ed, I am not able to change this thread, even though the questions you bring up are wonderful and, indeed, confusing to me as well… I don’t feel good about creating or denying the way reality seems to be simply because I would do things differently. If it is true, it is true even if God created all people to be damned as a part of a cosmic game. Truth is what I seek first, not comfort.”
But “reality” seems to be what? I have asked others and received a curious assortment of answers concerning how much they have each personally seen or heard of resurrections, heaven, hell, Jesus and the Trinity and bloody sacrifices cleansing “sins” past present and future. I sought truth and found questions. One does not need to consciously deny a belief in order to reach the state in which one admits it would be dishonest to say one still believed as one once did.
As for claiming that you’d follow the truth even if God created all people to be damned, that is way beyond any level of faith I currently possess. Even if true, I do not feel it in my soul to respect such a God at all, no obligation whatsoever to respect such a God. All one could hope in such a case is to resort to a Buddhistic patience that such a God would eventually get his head screwed on right.
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Alfredo, I very much appreciate your post number 81 above. Thanks and I certainly hope along with you and all who hope in what is good, loving, kind, intelligent and happy, a good God or a good force, and personal immortaliy. Neither do I deny myself the right to pray, meditate, or ponder. But I also acknowledge questions that are immensely disturbing and burdensome, as well they might be in either an atheist’s universe or a theist’s. Take your pick. Pascal’s wager might be a way for me to go, but I have taken the leap of faith, I was devoutly born again, elected president of my campus Christian group, evangelized, wrote love songs for my savior, dated Christian women (kissed, no fondling or anything beneath the belt, I remained chaste), cleaned gutters of fellow church goers, was baptised as an adult (and a baby, having been raised Catholic), was “baptized in the holy spirit” (felt intense joy while praying), spoke in tongues (at a later date), and later studied theologies of all sorts, Lutheranism, Calvinism. I was and still am a truth seeker. But we all are in our own eyes truth seekers, and/or finders. On the inside all of our beliefs seems normal, including whatever level of doubting we each endure concerning various questions.
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OK, back on track. Sanctification.
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Concerning the leaving Christianity issue, I will just have to point people here: http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/05/leaving-christianity-a-christian-epidemic/
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Michael, thank you for this post. I have been a Christian for over 50 years and find that I am still able to be quite a stinker at times. I have always thought of sanctification as a lifelong goal. We are to work out our salvation and this is reinforced when the Bible speaks to us in 1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” We are saved and “being saved”.
We continually strive to be more like Jesus knowing full well we cannot achieve that goal. We will never fully understand all that God has in mind for us. All we can do is trust Him to finish the good work He started in us. We just need to get out of our own way sometimes.
I have full confidence that my sanctifiction will be perfect and complete when my life on earth is over. After all, that’s God’s promise and I trust it to be true.
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Jon (you older fella you….)!!
I loved your post. It was an awesome reminder of what the definition of sanctification really is — instead of what the modern church distorts it to be. (Post 69)
As the Confession explains, “This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part: whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.”
Why then do we find it so hard to believe and accept that this struggle is not normal for our fallen condition? Further, why do we allow this struggle to cause us to reject something we know in our heart is true?
I think the answer lies in something I just read about The Fall — “The biblical God remains a massive threat to illusions of moral autonomy. The result is that even though a man may be convinced of the truth of God’s existence, that intellectual assertion in itself could not overcome the moral inclination to flee from that truth. Man’s corruption is such that he will do everything in his power to disprove, combat, obscure and deny the truth of that knowledge. (Sproul, of course…..
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It will always be our struggle during this season to choose rebellion — but it is normal considering our condition. After all, we want it our way — we want to believe only in our perceived truth/knowledge — we choose only to trust in what we desire to be true (which in fact could be a lie, but we choose it because we like power it gives us to make that choice.) We like the power surge we get from manipulating the truth in our favor. That’s a big mistake and it’s the same thing that Satan did to Eve. Feelings can be dangerous…..
Thus, Michael – you are normal
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Your reflections ring a bit Job-like to me…
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I liked your little essay on santification. I think often as we grow closer to God we see more and more of our depravity without him and more of our weaknesses. Somethings we never thought of as sin before become bigger sins later. We see more and more how were are fallen creatures and not God.
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