Rethinking Sanctification Because I Have To

# on 08 Sep 2009
Christian Life & Personal (Michael Patton) & Sin

Comments (146)

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146 Responses to “Rethinking Sanctification Because I Have To”

1. Joshua Allen on 08 Sep 2009 at 9:51 pm #

   Sanctification has more to do with how often you are broken before him, not your stoic ability to deal with pain. Sanctification has more to do with a recognition of your weaknesses than of your strengths. Sanctification has more to do with repentance than with the things that don’t require repentance.

   Awesome post. You hit the nail squarely on the head with this one.

   Even Peter was humbled, finding himself denying Christ 3 times after insisting that such a terrible character defect was impossible and unthinkable to him.

   I think we can expect our trials to increase as our maturity as Christians increases. I, too, once thought that I had it all figured out. Then, as I started to make a deeper commitment to God and congratulated myself on being a remarkably authentic Christian, I started to panic about the whole “you will be persecuted” warning. I used to pray to God that I be spared the most painful trials of faith, and the character humiliations that many of the great Christians faced.

   Then one day I realized how presumptuous I had been, to assume that I was anywhere near the level of spiritual maturity where God would confront me with such trials. To compare my spiritual maturity to martyrs like Peter or Paul, let alone to Christians like you or Lisa? Ha! There is a reason that I have had a relatively trouble-free life as a Christian so far, and it is directly related to my lack of spiritual maturity, I am sure.

   Now, I panic from both sides. I’m still afraid of being humbled and brought low like Peter was, but I’m even more afraid of making it through this life without ever being spiritually mature enough to face such trials. And I want to make sure that I always answer like Peter, with vehement denials and resolve to never fail, rather than like Judas, who simply asked, “will I?”.

2. peteRock on 08 Sep 2009 at 10:16 pm #

   As of lately, I’ve been wondering why am I not sanctified as I ought to be; it’s been 16+ years since I’ve been saved. I instead find myself growing tired of church (and not to the exclusion of my unhealed past). Don’t get me wrong: I have a deep yearning for knowing the truth of God’s Word, but sometimes is doesn’t look like the Word is becoming flesh in my life. This new perspective of sanctification, however, does give me something to think about. Thank Michael.

3. C Michael Patton on 08 Sep 2009 at 10:25 pm #

   Thanks Josh.

   Pete, I just added a portion to this before I read yours. It was the hardest to include and I went back and forth. It is in the paragraph that starts “Ten years after having this conception…”

4. J.T. Shortt on 09 Sep 2009 at 12:31 am #

   I appreciate you openness in your posts. It is hard when we come to realize we are not what we think we are as followers of Christ. For me it was wrestling with Philippians 2:12-13. I struggle the fear and I have to say that Joshua Allen summarized in very well in his post earlier. Who am I to think so great of myself? But I am encouraged that is God who is working in me.
   Michael, I have to say, though you might not always feel sanctified, it’s is through your struggles that I have gain great insight and wisdom in the faith. He has worked in you and through you to many.

   Stay Strong
   J.T.

5. geoff on 09 Sep 2009 at 1:14 am #

   I think one of the things about being sanctified is that the more we grow to understand God and Jesus, the more we realise how short we fall.
   The shorter we fall the more we feel, “whoa whats going on?”.

   What we need to do is remember that the more we change, grow, understand, the more we should be relying on God. Its now how short we fall, but how the grace of God in Christ covers that shortfall al the more.

6. Geoff Kessenich on 09 Sep 2009 at 2:15 am #

   Another Geoff,

   How cool is that. I look at the prophets in the Old Testament and the struggles of the disciples in the New Testament and understand that in our fallen nature we will be tricked by the devil into thinking we are not good enough to deserve what God has offered us. The funny thing is that we are not good enough to deserve the sanctification that Jesus offered to us freely through His death and resurrection. The closer we get to Jesus the dirtier we look. I think it is a necessary thing and if we realize that we cannot do anything to feel like we deserve it we can move on and make every day a new day and not worry about our short comings. Then we can rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us instead of trying to do it all by ourselves. If we are honest with ourselves most of the time we say we want to have God help us but we automatically run ahead of God thinking we can figure out what He wants us to do instead of waiting on God and His direction before we move. Andrew Murray wrote a great devotional called Waiting on God and I am not finished with it yet, but it is very good so far. Sanctification is a work of God and not of ourselves. It can’t be grasped or taken hold of unless God shows us how. Its kinda like Andrew Murray says we are able to think with our minds, but we cannot use our minds to learn how to make our heart beat. It is only God who taught our hearts to beat. The same thing goes for sanctification in my mind. We have no control of our sanctification other than to deny or reject it. In my opinion =)

7. Eddie Mishoe on 09 Sep 2009 at 6:01 am #

   Sanctification does not bring with it ’subtraction.’ Sanctification deals only with ‘addition.’

   To put this another way, sanctification is a spiritual phenomenon. We start off as babes (to use Paul’s terminology) and should grow into a mature person (spiritually speaking) over time. This ‘process’ of growing is called ’sanctification.’ The means of sanctification is stated in John 17.17.

   Our sin nature, the one Paul identifies in Rom 7, remains within us our entire physical, temporary life (life “in Adam”). It never leaves; it never gives up; it is always getting stronger, more deceptive, etc., and will over-power you on more occasions than you would like. This is why I said sanctification is not ’subtraction.’ In the process of becoming more and more Christ-like, your old sin nature is not ipso facto becoming weaker and weaker.

   Thus, sanctification is the on-going process of becoming more Christ-like, spiritually speaking. Our sin natures are unaffected by sanctification.

   Eddie

8. Lisa Robinson on 09 Sep 2009 at 6:32 am #

   This explains a lot. Thanks.

9. Truth Sleuth on 09 Sep 2009 at 7:50 am #

   Thanks for sharing CMP,

   I like to think of Paul when I think of this, in the way he progressively thought about himself as his life went on. First he was a pharisee of pharisees, then a sinner, and towards the end of his life he considered himself the chief sinner.

   I want to create a bumper sticker that says “the closer I get to the Lord the more I realize how much I suck.” I think (or maybe just hope) that part of the sanctification process is being able to see who we really are apart from Christ more clearly. As our glasses get cleaner we see the real ugliness in our fleshly selves, and then the work that Christ is doing in us becomes more contrasted.

   For me that vision of my true self doesn’t make me feel like an accomplished Christian, it actually stings. But it does remind me how much I need Jesus to transform me into the creation he wants me to be.

10. Nick on 09 Sep 2009 at 8:20 am #

    Michael. Do you think there could be something to men not wanting to go to church? I’ve had a friend repeatedly recommend a book to me on why men hate going to church. If I teach or preach, I’m looking forward to it, but otherwise, not always. The exception is when we have interaction in the sermon and the pastor asks questions. Now our pastor is better than most and our church places an emphasis on apologetics, but I get tired of hearing sermons on an applicational level only and worship songs usually leave me just looking around wondering when we’re going to hear the message or thinking that I’d like to be at home listening to apologetics MP3s and playing on the Wii.

    I’d be interested in seeing a post on that topic.

11. PeteRock on 09 Sep 2009 at 8:41 am #

    I concur with J.T when he says: “Michael, I have to say, though you might not always feel sanctified, it’s through your struggles that I have gain great insight and wisdom in the faith.” Much love my brother.

12. kwilson on 09 Sep 2009 at 8:49 am #

    This is well stated in the Canons of Dordt (remember those?), first point, “Article 12: The Assurance of Election

    Assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God’s Word–such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.”

    Well said! The overt presentation of the fruits of the Spirit are certainly symptoms of sanctification, displayed by different folks at various times and to various degrees, but they are NOT what saved them and therefor what provides assurance. The Gospel message and its echoing in us is assurance. That alone.

    As Kim Riddlebarger (http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/welcome/) states in his excellent commentary on this article, the anst we feel does not challenge our salvation, it confirms it. It is the confirmation and result of our embrace of the actual Gospel message.

    Michael, you seem to be saying much the same thing, so there is nothing new under the sun after all…

13. Jim W. on 09 Sep 2009 at 9:47 am #

    I concur that this is a very good post.

    In addition to becoming more dependent on God and leaning on his strength, I think sanctification is about being able to say, “Your will, not my will, Lord” and being able to relinquish our own ambitions, desires, dreams, and expectations. It’s about really considering what it means when we say God is sovereign over our life and can do with it whatever he wants.

    It’s also about being able to say with Asaph, “Whom have I in heaven but you? / And earth has nothing I desire besides you.” (Psalm 73:25) Do I really believe that? Do I feel that way? I think reflecting on those two lines really gets to the heart of where our treasure is. Do we see God himself as our treasure? I think a mark of sanctification is when we see that our treasure is moving from this world to God.

    BTW, the above questions and thoughts can be very discouraging when seen from our own, finite perspective because we fail in so many ways. It’s easy to become depressed about it. I know I do. But God intends our failure to drive us to him and rest on his provision. He has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3). This is where it seems the hardest for us to follow.

14. Chuck Thomas on 09 Sep 2009 at 10:39 am #

    I think you have confessed something that we all (or at least most of us) are wrestling with. Thanks for articulaitng it so clearly. Apart from our respective professions and family composition, I might have well been reading about myself in your post. Well done, Michael.

15. Samuel on 09 Sep 2009 at 10:59 am #

    I am glad to know I am not alone in this..this post is absolutely timely for me. I read recently that the man spoken of in Romans 7 is not the believer..that threw a wrench in things for me..

16. Joshua on 09 Sep 2009 at 11:03 am #

    Thanks for the post Michael.

    Your “new” definition of sanctification reminded me of something Dallas Willard wrote in his book “Renovation of the Heart”, it said to the effect (and I’m paraphrasing now), “the greatest saints are not those who use the least grace, but those who use the most…to them grace is like breath.”

    I think this is the sort of thing Jesus was talking about in John 15 when He said, “apart from me you can do nothing.” The problem is none of us really believe that, and I think (in agreement with you) that the this concept (coming to the realization of our constant and continual neediness upon God) is what the process of santification is all about. It just takes a lot of “junk” (from our perpsective) to get us to actually believe it.

    Thank you for the wonderful ministry that you have been faithful and obedient in even through the trials and valleys you have faced and continue to face.

    Blessings,

    -Joshua

17. John Carroll on 09 Sep 2009 at 11:43 am #

    Good stuff Michael! I found myself saying Yes Yes that’s me, that’s my experience exactly. However I think revival would surely come if we could all stand up in our local assemblies and confess these things to one another in addition to confessing them on the relatively safe and somewhat anonymous forum of the Internet. It is when the whole assembly facing God in His Word and then truly facing each other that the Spirit moves. But I tremble at even the thought of doing that!

18. Adam on 09 Sep 2009 at 3:11 pm #

    Just today I’ve been listening to John Piper teaching on the dynamics of the Christian life, one that is real and authentic. These are the very things M. Paton is lamenting.

    I will confess, it is the same items I have lamented in my life. May we all learn – something – from Piper.

    http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Seminars/1725_Prayer_Meditation_and_Fasting_Part_1/

19. Aleksej on 09 Sep 2009 at 4:23 pm #

    I liked your string of thoughts on sanctification. Actually I am also amazed as the last commentator said with the fact that I heard similar thing both in a sermon and on your blog. Keep up the good work, brother!

    http://reformspb.podfm.ru/propoved/53/

20. Scott Ferguson on 09 Sep 2009 at 4:26 pm #

    It must be National Doubt Month.

    iMonk just reposted a really powerful piece on self-doubt (http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/from-the-classic-imonk-archives-2002-i-have-my-doubts). Even I just hung up from a discussion with my wife about whether Wednesday night church activities were worth the trouble.

    What really amazes me is how often terms with (seemingly) clear definitions prove virtually meaningless when faced with Life. Perhaps these lovely abstractions should be avoided or used sparingly and with full recognition that they indeed represent abstractions, not hard, cold realities. Seeing how Christianity in particular is filled with such powerful, poetic language, it is a shame that believers are not more often brought along in their faith in full knowledge of the dangers that lay even in the words they use.

21. Brad on 09 Sep 2009 at 4:54 pm #

    Calvin would be proud!

    “Sanctification n. The process of Christian development that has more to do with how dependent you have become on the Lord, not necessarily about being “good.” ”

    Awesome…God’s soverignty is always shown more important theologically than man’s choice.

22. Chad Winters on 09 Sep 2009 at 5:01 pm #

    I agree Michael.

    Church is getting harder. I think its because “church” is not what its supposed to be.

    My church is not bad overall, but frequently it seems like going to church involves:
    –listening to music that is not as good as on the radio but tries to be
    –listening to a sermon that is either a lite version of what I already know or is just wrong
    –some public praying that sounds more like preaching in prayer form
    –then we leave

    that can’t be what its supposed to be like. I know I’m supposed to be worshipping…..but is this worship?

23. Mike on 09 Sep 2009 at 5:06 pm #

    Fantastic post.

    I long to ponder it and spend time in communion with the Lord.

    Thanks, yet again…

    Keep it real!

    Mike

24. Dennis Elenburg on 09 Sep 2009 at 5:24 pm #

    Michael, I’ll sit in the ashes with you, but unlike Job’s “friends” I’ll just say nothing other than I CAN RELATE!! You’re singing my song, and hanging out in Psalms seems to help (sometimes).

25. Dennis Elenburg on 09 Sep 2009 at 5:31 pm #

    Truth Sleuth wrote:
    > I want to create a bumper sticker that says
    > “the closer I get to the Lord the more I realize
    > how much I suck.”

    LOL on that one! I’d buy one.

    Nick wrote:
    > Do you think there could be something to men
    > not wanting to go to church?

    A friend of mine has a theory about this which he wrote on here:
    http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/Truth/GodOfTruth.htm

    I tend to think Tom is right about the source of the gender issue, and the bigger problem it reveals.

26. JoanieD on 09 Sep 2009 at 5:46 pm #

    Wonderful, Michael. I particularly like your, “Sanctification has more to do with how often you are broken before him, not your stoic ability to deal with pain. Sanctification has more to do with a recognition of your weaknesses than of your strengths.” Isn’t THAT the truth!

    Your thoughts about sanctification resonate well with something I read by Thomas Keating who wrote the book “Manifesting God.” On page 104 he writes about God, “He expects us to make mistakes. He gives us millions (indeed billions and trillions) of chances. If anything, God likes our weaknesses because it enables him to exercise his infinite mercy. When Paul prayed earnestly to be delivered from a particularly annoying weakness, God said to him, ‘My grace is enough for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.’ (2 Corinthians 12:9) According to this text, we do God a great favor by accepting our weakness. So there is no reason to be saddened by the fact that we do not measure up to our idealized image of ourselves and of how we should perform in the spiritual journey. That obviously is an ego trip.”

    We are not perfect, but we are greatly loved by God…so loved that he died for us. I believe that God “enjoys” us!

27. gary on 09 Sep 2009 at 5:47 pm #

    Yes indeed michael, the struggle continues. Both as the bible says I am sanctified ( made holy ) and I am being made holy, and you helped by pointing out that it’s more about being dependant and recognising that, and I would add, a growth in humility, and not neceesarily about being good.

    I always have tightly held onto rom 7 to help me in my weakness. Yet an illustration has also helped me. As I draw closer to the light ( Christ ) I more easily see my own wretchedness and sin, and therfore what my Lord needs to deal with. Something that has also to be balanced with the wonder at God’s grace towards me in making me his child!

    In Christ,
    Gary

28. From The Balcony on 09 Sep 2009 at 5:54 pm #

    Chad (your quote — Church is getting harder. I think its because “church” is not what its supposed to be. ) — is right on target.

    However, if we recognize this and use it as an excuse to blow church off, how many others will not see — how many others will not hear? If all sound and learned Christians think church is irrelevant, then the church will deteriorate even further. Someone has to stand up. The church is a collective whole and when some of the pieces are missing, others are hurt.

    That’s why I keep pushing myself to go — even when I don’t want to and I’d rather pull out my favorite theology book and sit in a soft chair and ingest it all selfishly.

    Geoff (post #5) also makes a good point.

    Another thought, Michael — age has a way of helping to understand the hard things like this. You are in the whirlwind of deciphering it all right now That’s a good thing!

    I’ve heard The Gospel Mystery of Sanctification: Growing in Holiness by Living in Union with Christ is a good book…..and since I love Sproul, I’m going to have to read Sproul’s Pleasing God where he covers sanctificaiton.

29. Cliff Weaver on 09 Sep 2009 at 5:58 pm #

    Thanks for the honest post. I’d love to say that being 68 brings sanctification as you originally thought but alas it doesn’t appear to be so.

    Last week I lead a weekend retreat for men finally able to at least look at how participating in an abortion had affected their life.

    Guess I should have but did not anticipate the spiritual warfare that I would experience. Doubt, personal failure and a host of emotions almost made me back out at the last minute. But God prevailed and I hung in there because this is His work and He is the one who empowers and overcomes.

    I’m with you Michael. I don’t understand it all. And neither of us truly will till we are with the Father. But I do understand reconciliation and restoration. Those issues go beyond my behavior.

    We get so focused on behavior we forget the character and sovereignty of God and His love for us beyond our actions or condition of the heart at any point in time.

    The Lord blessed the men attending in a supernatural way as only the Holy Spirit can do. But the weekend was really made for “me” to reflect on His goodness and mercy toward me. Unworthy but accepted!

    God has used you to bless us and it won’t stop because you are imperfect! Grace to you, Brother!

30. Steve on 09 Sep 2009 at 8:01 pm #

    How timely. How appropriate. How correct. I’m right there with you. Not because iIwant to be but because I have no other place to go. I’m rethinking a lot these days not because I want to but because I’m compelled. Thanks for the reminder that we all have so far to go in our journey’s into what God has for us. Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, what God has prepared for those that love him.

    Blessings

31. ThatRockWasChrist on 09 Sep 2009 at 8:03 pm #

    I think this is why Jesus kept it simple: “…’You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.’” Matthew 22:37-40

32. Alfredo on 09 Sep 2009 at 9:20 pm #

    Michael,

    I am just grateful that you can so honestly bare your soul for us to see. I have struggled with these same issues all my Christian life. Everyday, more and more, I see myself in Paul’s words: “For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want – instead, I do what I hate.”

    I do not deserve God’s mercy. I don’t feel like I have been sanctified. And, the more I know the human condition, the more I realize we will never be good in God’s eyes.

    I believe, like the one who entered the synagogue to confess his sins and was sanctified, that sanctification is like being painted white by someone else so that our true colors are not seen when judgment comes.

    The only thing us Christians should dare declare about ourselves is that we recognize that we are sinners.

    We are hopeless fools if we think we will ever reach a semblance of goodness. Like Paul said, “Now, we see through a glass, darkly …”

    God’s mercy is our only hope. Jesus’ death on the cross is our only salvation.

    Maybe we should just concentrate in bringing more people to the realization that God loves us and forgives us undeservingly, as bad as we are.

    Maybe sanctification has nothing to do with righteousness. Only a cleansing, a covering with blood, like the Passover.

    Undeserved, like Paul, doing wrong when we would like to do right, but loved nonetheless by our Creator and His Son, Jesus Christ, who died to pay our debt.

    Thanks. You don’t know how much good can come out of what you think is a “not so shiny” confession. I, because of what you wrote, feel that, maybe, I am not alone and that I am not failing God in a way he disapproves of completely. Maybe there is hope for me too. After all, He knows us, He made us, and He loves us. Don’t ask me why.

33. Fishin' Rod on 09 Sep 2009 at 9:47 pm #

    Micheal

    Sounds to me like you are really understanding sanctification? You need Christ more than you ever imagined before and that is sanctifying in itself. God resists the proud, but gives Grace to the humble!
    Praying for and with ya!

    I feel the same so very often, but; will never stop running the race, I look for the Crown! Then I will not be empty handed when Crowns are thrown at His feet!

34. Edward T. Babinski on 09 Sep 2009 at 9:50 pm #

    Hi Michael,

    There’s lots of Christians who undergo doubt, some suffer depression their whole lives (whole families of ministers sometimes do), some leave the fold after trying to overcome such doubts.

    All I can say is that yes, life doesn’t get easier as you grow older. And I left the fold knowing full well that generally speaking, Christians were not superior to other folks, but more like everyone else than they are often willing to admit.

35. C Michael Patton on 09 Sep 2009 at 9:57 pm #

    Edward,

    I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but your comment has intrigued me. Do you ever doubt that leaving the faith was the right thing?

36. Steve T. on 09 Sep 2009 at 10:17 pm #

    Awesome! My current struggle with sanctification – how much do I really want to be conformed to the image of Christ? Eighty percent of my life is in the service of others – and sometimes this just bothers me. There never seems to be time for what I want to do! I get impatient and irritable. Do I really want to be sanctified? Christ gave 100% of His life away without complaint. Am I really willing to give it ALL away? What will this mean? What will this look like? Won’t this keep me from doing “great” things for God? But the truly great thing is to be sanctified – is this really what I want? Yes, it is a struggle.

37. Edward T. Babinski on 09 Sep 2009 at 10:26 pm #

    Michael, you asked me, “I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but your comment has intrigued me. Do you ever doubt that leaving the faith was the right thing?”

    You’re not putting me on the spot. Leaving the Christian faith for me was part of a nearly decade-long process, rather than a conscious decision to reject Christian doctrines and dogmas. I had been dialoging with two former Christian friends who were both quite conservative in their early 20s and had studied Christian apologetics and theology. We met and talked some and continued to dialogue for over a thousand snail mailed pages, exchanged book lists, and I began reading some of the works they suggested, but it took many snail mail exchanges before I even got that far.

    There came a time when I could no longer see some people as “damned” and others as “saved,” but rather I saw genuine kindness and love in people whom I knew did not share my religious beliefs, doctrines and dogmas. I saw compassion in Buddhists and Hindus. I saw it in Mormons. I saw it in universalist Chrsitians, and in mystics, agnostics, atheists.

    I also saw all of us as suffering individuals, each of us fighting our own daily battles, sharing all the same basic fears, such as fears that others might think negatively of us, or find us less pleasing as friends, relationship fears, depression, loneliness, mind numbing repetitiveness in life or on the job , fears of sickness and death, etc.

    And though Christianity claimed we would always have a friend in Jesus and we would be God’s friend and live forever, such claims appeared difficult to judge when you stepped back and looked at all the evidence. I mean, even statistical studies find that having a dog raises your chances of living a longer healthier life than going to church. At least that’s what I recall noticing in one study. All the benefits of Christianity seemed to be not highly significant (at least visibly in this life) than things people can also come by naturally, such as friends, pets, etc.

    And no doubt once you’re ensconced in a particular community that revolves around shared beliefs then being involved in such a community enhances one’s quality of life in the same basic ways that all communities do, no matter what type of community it may be.

    The other part of my “leaving process” involved studying the Bible, the history of diverse Christian groups and beliefs, other religions, philosophy, psychology, sociology, biology, geology, etc.

    I can no longer even imagine that the Bible may be inerranty true (nor even inspired) from cover to cover. Parts of it are inspiring, but in the same sense parts of other books are. I seek the best in every person and every book, based on everything I’ve learned in my life, both experientially and via books.

38. donna boone on 09 Sep 2009 at 10:34 pm #

    I can’t tell you how very refreshing to read your piece on sanctification.
    Just to add one more aspect, sanctification is being gut honest with the Lord. This allows me to grieve over the fact that He allowed sin to come into the world and at the same time find assurance that He was graceful enough to allow us to choose.
    I have questioned my salvation as well. My fuse is shorter, my patience has grown thinner. I am impatient with things that don’t translate into eternal purposes.
    Perhaps the closer we move toward God, the more we taste His eternal sweetness and realize what a deep contrast there is between here and where He is. My soul aches for holiness and goodness.
    Thanks so much for writing your honest thoughts.

39. Leticia Estavillo on 09 Sep 2009 at 11:08 pm #

    I am very close to where you are… VERY close. I don’t know if it will help, but I had a few things occur to me that are really helping me push through all this.

    The first, and this was a shocker to me, I AM a good person. (That has taken me decades to say out loud.) HOWEVER, I am only a good person because of my relationship with God (I refer to the whole Trinity here.)

    The second which is related, is that the part of ourselves that we refuse to release control to God is, in fact, the worst of ourselves. We focus on that part as ‘us’ and don’t think about the rest as ‘God’s’. It was just something that was freely (or in some cases grudgingly) given. It’s like when you put gas in the car and that sludge and gunk builds up. Well, the rest of the tank is gas (Christ) but we haven’t gone through and tried to flush out that last bit of tarpy goo.

    I think we, as Christians, spend so much time looking at all the bad things that still persist in our lives (mainly because we can’t give up control) that we fail to see how Christ is in control of the majority. I hoping that if I can focus on what God is doing in my life, then I can look back and realize how unnecessary the bad, which I don’t want to release, is.

    Pray without ceasing! That sounds simple, but right now, my prayer goes something like this: “Lord – more than anything i love you, but right now, I just want to throw my hands up in the air in frustration. I’m tired of this fight with myself. This bit that I cannot release has a terrible hold on me. Sometimes, I am a hypocrite walking into my Sunday school class and leading the discussion or teaching about how we should follow you. Right now, there is a lesson to be learned, my will to be re-broken, or maybe I’m just to wait…. I don’t know which is the right one, or if it’s something else, or all of it, but I want you to know that I appreciate all you do for me. I cling to you because you do love me and more than that. I know it.”

    OK… this is rambling and I was suppose to keep this short.

    I will pray for you, my brother.

    – L

40. C Michael Patton on 10 Sep 2009 at 1:49 am #

    Thanks Edward,

    I agree that there are people out there of all varieties who are kind and generous. It is part of the shared human pathos it seems. From my perspective, it comes from God.

    The shared experience of doubt is present in all of us. And although my post was not really about doubt, I was intriged, knowing your story, by reading your comment. I was wondering if you ever doubt that you made the right decision leaving Christianity. I am not setting up for anything, believe me. Just curious.

41. mark on 10 Sep 2009 at 3:42 am #

    Are you truly born again?,it is never good to be presumptuos about our condition.

    It seems you have a lot of ‘I’s in your post which is never good.

    Maybe you might find some help from reading John Bunyans account,

    ‘Grace abounding to the chief of sinners’ which details some of the tribulations and struggles a TRUE christian experiences.

    The devil never touches his own men,their goods are in perfect peace.

    He only ever attacks people who have a work of God started in them,which by the way is not started by our willingness to come to Him for we could never will it.Putting your hand in the air and saying i will come to Jesus never makes a christian,it is God that must first come to us and awake us to our lost and awful condition.

    I hope this may be of some help to someone in any case.

42. Errol Hewitt on 10 Sep 2009 at 3:44 am #

    From my own experience I so far conclude that in this life it means “set apart for reconstruction” and in this very evil world reconstruction is a continuing process because flaws are uncovered by the changing environment and stress tests.

43. John on 10 Sep 2009 at 4:00 am #

    I don’t agree with your definition of sanctification, but I agree that the Christian being sanctified will tend to exhibit those qualities. Otherwise, if I agreed with your definition, then I would have to say that Jesus is sanctified because he knows his weaknesses, which doesn’t work.

44. E. D. Faulkin on 10 Sep 2009 at 4:01 am #

    Finally, an honest Christian- or at least it is an attempt at honesty, which is more than I have seen in a long time. I weary of the phony moralizing. As if there is any person that has escaped the flesh? Yes, let us all pretend that we no longer sin… thats right, something we “used” to deal with- not so, something we shall never escape in this life! And yet we crush other men with an iron claw. Lets get it straight, there is no argument against Christian morality, but there is a very serious argument against a Christians attitude in executing judgment. Tread softly my brothers because I am not the only one with sin.

    E. D. Faulkin

45. Cadis on 10 Sep 2009 at 4:04 am #

    Your first definition of sanctification was a little Joel Osteenish, so granted some re-thinking seemed due, but your second definition does not sit any better with me. It smells of defeat. It is one thing to submit and gain victory over the flesh by allowing the Spirit to overtake and “defeat the flesh” and it’s another to say Christ is sanctifying you by your reliance on him and yet your behavior is still bad and “you are defeated” I’m thinking your in that part of the race where someone needs to shout you on..Get up and run! Move it! Move it!
    I don’t think you can redefine and re-adjust on experience, can you? Although it’s understandable and we can all relate to the part of the race where your lungs hurt and your sucking for air ..I don’t see anywhere in scripture where my footsteps vanish and this is the part where Christ carries me. He sustains me , He strengthens me, He leads me, I can’t find the part where he carries me. And I can’t find the part where it says as you grow in him you will become meaner, more cynical and depressed. Sanctification has a lot to do with obedience and enduring, you don’t just reach a certain crest of a hill and think.. wow! I’m glad that’s over! You don’t just put on love once and are done, you don’t just put off the old man once and are done…there are lots of hills in this race. Count the cost and all that good stuff

46. Dennis Elenburg on 10 Sep 2009 at 5:24 am #

    It seems to me that the reason Edward T. Babinski “left the fold” may be the same reason many of us “in the fold” resonate with CMP’s post. We’ve lost sight of truth! ThatRockWasChrist’s comment #31 reclaimed my mind with Matthew 22:37-40.

    I’ve come to believe that the modern American church has been infiltrated with a false gospel of relationshipism. Adopting a (non-biblical) relationshipistic view of Christianity rather than a truth-centered biblical view seems to lead to these sorts of struggles. Relationshipism is a wide path out of the sheep fold for those who press it to its logical conclusions. Most people don’t press it that far. My friend Tom explains it better here:

    http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/Truth/GodOfTruth.htm

47. Truth Unites... and Divides on 10 Sep 2009 at 5:34 am #

    “I’ve come to believe that the modern American church has been infiltrated with a false gospel of relationshipism.”

    Wow. What a thunderbolt!

    Do you mean both vertical and horizontal relationships?

    I looked at the first page of the link. Very intriguing. Of course, since I’m a staunch complementarian, I’d agree that the leaven of unbiblical feminism has wrought vast destruction upon the church, upon families, and upon individuals.

    Thanks for sharing.

48. John Carroll on 10 Sep 2009 at 6:14 am #

    Cadis – re your reply where you say “i can’t find the part where it says as you grow in Him you become meaner, etc” I don’t think that was what was intended. I have personally come to the conclusion that I am a poor judge of my own growth. If I say “I can see over the last year I have drawn closer to Christ” how do I measure that? By the number of times I have not done what I should not have ever done in the first place, or by the good that I did do that I might not have done before? By a subjective feeling? I think that just as grown-ups often say to children “Wow you have really grown in the last year!” so too our growth in grace is best judged by others who see us and interact with us on a regular basis. I think what MIchael is saying is what all saints have confessed from time immemorial – that in His blazing light we tend not to see our own goodness but rather our own sin/need. And it would stand to reason that the ‘closer’ we get to Him the more that we see what we or the world would once have considered a small thing becomes big. In a dim room it is hard to pick out what needs washing. But of course, were it not for His love and grace and mercy we would all be undone.

49. JoanieD on 10 Sep 2009 at 6:15 am #

    I think that a lot of people leave the Christian fold for the same kind of reasons that Ed did. I actually think the reason underlying all that Ed said is that many Christians are learning and teaching a Christianity that is “too small.” When you read the beginning of John’s Gospel, you read about Jesus, “The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.” So God gives light to “every man.” And Jesus told his disciples that some people were going to be surprised to find themselves in heaven, but Jesus pointed out that they loved people and took care of them and that is what he expected. (Matthew 25:31-40).

    Michael told me many months back on this blog that I am an “inclusivist.” It doesn’t make me a non-Christian, but it makes me a Christian that can live with myself, my Christian faith. And it doesn’t mean that I believe all people are “godly” people. All babies are born firmly within the love of God and whether they die without being baptised or not, they will be with God. Anything else is ludicrous because otherwise we would say that humans are more loving than God and that is not possible. But as humans grow, they choose to go their own way and not rely on God for all that they do. Some folks, because of the way they were raised, would be greatly challenged to even know God and his ways. But Jesus is alive and he has conquered all evil and is there to take in anyone who asks. Like the parable of the prodigal son and his father, as soon as people turn towards God, God “runs” right to the person, embracing them in his total love.

    In regard to the Bible, I see the books as the stories of human beings as they are coming to know God in more fullness. I see men in the Old Testament particularly doing what they want to do and saying it was God’s will. I cannot see the “Abba” that Jesus prays to wanting to have babies bashed against the rocks. Jesus came to show us what God is like and now we know. He came to save us from the evil in the world which is always trying to take away our peace and our joy.

    I know I am opening myself up to criticism, but be aware that I am not a teacher, a preacher, an author so what I say and think does not effect a lot of people. But if my “form” of Christianity can help someone stay “within the fold” that’s a good thing.

    And for anyone who does not know, I am Catholic.

50. Nick Charalambous on 10 Sep 2009 at 7:21 am #

    So very thankful that you dived into this topic head first. Santification IS a whole lot messier than our churches have wanted to deal with. The modern megachurch movement, while contributing much of value to reorienting the purpose of church toward evangelism, is poorly suited to deal with this one, since “scale” is almost non-existent in this area. You can provide the best materials and curricula on the planet, but “learning” on it’s own is simply ineffective for the vast majority of people. Day-to-day wrestling with the issues of life and learning how to apply Biblical wisdom to everything you do is where the gains are made.

    Discipleship perhaps is about finding for the spiritually immature worthy models for imitation and ensuring there’s sustained, life-on-life contact between them and strong, Biblically mature individuals. In a culture of choice, mobility and ever more-self selected social and cultural environments, the odds are stacked against us, i think. I don’t know of any easy answers. Right now, I’m settling on making a difference a handful of lives at a time just by mentoring.

51. Steve Carroll on 10 Sep 2009 at 7:26 am #

    Thanks for this.

    I have been a Christian for 30 years and get down about the lack of growth. I am, however, encouraged by Philippians 3:12-16. I understand it as saying that the more we mature, the more we are aware of our need of Christ.

    Don’t be ashamed of getting of your maturity.

    Steve

52. Steve Carroll on 10 Sep 2009 at 7:26 am #

    Thanks for this.

    I have been a Christian for 30 years and get down about the lack of growth. I am, however, encouraged by Philippians 3:12-16. I understand it as saying that the more we mature, the more we are aware of our need of Christ.

    Don’t be ashamed of your maturity.

    Steve

53. Nick on 10 Sep 2009 at 7:34 am #

    Dang. That article on relationshipism was so accurate!

54. Mike S on 10 Sep 2009 at 8:26 am #

    Michael,
    I believe your second definition is as off base as your first. You said, “The process of Christian development that has more to do with how dependent you have become on the Lord, not necessarily about being “good.” “ In you theological construct, you have acquired salvation, and therefore, you are struggling to fit sanctification into the system. You know it belongs, but struggle to find where.

    In the Latin and Protestant West salvation is set apart from sanctification. The two are seen as exclusive events. I believe your struggle with sanctification, in both definitions, as being rooted in this separation (justification, regeneration, sanctification, glorification…..). However, salvation is a process to be worked out in fear and trembling. Today, minimization runs amuck, a result of sola fide: all you have to do is have faith (ABCs,etc.). Christianity is maximalistic, everything is necessary for salvation. I am saved by admitting my sins. I saved by believing. I am saved by confessing Christ. I am saved by my faith. I am saved by my works. I am saved when baptized. I am saved when partaking of the Eucharist. I am saved through continual repentance. I am saved through fasting. I am saved through prayer. I am saved by charity……

    “Christianity is a teaching about the gradual extirpation of the passions, about the means and conditions of the gradual acquisition of virtues.” — Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky of Kiev.

    I write this not to highjack this thread into a soteriological debate, but I believe your struggle is ultimately a soteriological problem.

    mike s

55. Mike S on 10 Sep 2009 at 8:28 am #

    ^&*(&*^()*&^()*&^&*^(&*%^(*(&()*^)*&^(&*%^*&%$*(&%^*)&^)*&^(*%(&*%^*(&^%*(&^%(&^%(&^(&*^)(&%^()*&%()*&

56. Bror Erickson on 10 Sep 2009 at 8:32 am #

    If you really want to reinvestigate/chagne position on sanctification, then read “Sanctification; Christ in Action” by Harold Senkbeil, sold through Northwest Publishing House. It will change everything you have ever thought about sanctification.

57. Barry Applewhite on 10 Sep 2009 at 8:39 am #

    First, I appreciate your openness. Denial has never been useful in serving God, but that has not kept many of us from using it freely. My concern is this: I see no biblical analysis whatever in your post. That’s like trying to drive from Texas to Alaska without ever looking at a map or a road sign.
    Without reference to a truth from above us, all we have left is the usual postmodern mishmash of our (allegedly) equally valid opinions. That promises to take us nowhere.

    Blessings,
    -Barry

58. Rich Watts on 10 Sep 2009 at 8:54 am #

    Hi, Michael.

    ‘Well, several thoughts have come buzzing into my brain. But it seems you’re most likely to be benefitted by my just sharing very briefly two reflections – what I’ll name the ‘Objective’ and the ‘Subjective.’ ( The blessing to me of your teachings on the Objective & Subjective Bases of Justification!)
    Plus I’ve also gotta state that I don’t read others’ posts….Please try to make allowances.
    1. We’re to be in prayer for you. I am. God wants this for you.
    2. ‘Seems to me the life verse of all ‘born-agains’ should be “He must increase. I must decrease.”

    ‘Praying God’s richest blessings in Christ Jesus upon you,

    Your Friend,
    Rich

59. Sheila Bright on 10 Sep 2009 at 8:57 am #

    I went through this about 10 years ago. It seemed my heart must be freally corrupt because all that came out of my mouth was unclean and it was never my intention to be hurtful. So, was I not saved? After being a follower of Christ for so long?

    For me, the journey has been one of reading the verses speaking of suffering. Christ said of Paul: I will show him how much he has to suffer for my Name.

    Collosians and Galatians says our sufferings fill up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ. wow. We never focused on those before. Our sufferings are needed by God? Scripture says so.

    Christianity: deny myself (afflict, mortify, which I must do of my own free will) and take up my cross (God’s fatherlike chastisements that I must willingly accept as good for me) and follow Christ ( not my will in all things- in how many things? all).

    This is Chrsitianity. A great tribulation. He who perseveres to the end will be saved.

    Joy comes with the suffering for the sake of the body! They go together.

60. JasonS on 10 Sep 2009 at 9:24 am #

    Very good article. You have indeed struck a nerve that needed to be struck. We all struggle, but are too often “too spiritual” to admit it.
    After all, we don’t want others to think badly of us.
    It is refreshing to be reminded that we are human and all of us struggle to humble ourselves before the grace of our Savior.
    http://pastoralmusings.com/2009/09/10/sanctification/

61. Kirk on 10 Sep 2009 at 9:28 am #

    Thank you so much for this post. I have been feeling the same way for quite a while now. I question whether I really have saving faith or not because I just don’t feel like I’m making very much progress in my santification. However, like you wrote, I do recognize my failings more, and realize how sinful I am, and how far from the mark I fall.

62. C Michael Patton on 10 Sep 2009 at 9:29 am #

    Mark, would you suggest the same thing to Paul in Romans 9 or the Psalmist in 51?

63. Geoff C on 10 Sep 2009 at 9:35 am #

    Michael, your Blog raises the significant issue of matching our personal experience with what is objectively known about God through Scripture and natural revelation.
    Experientially, the adage that, “The more you know, the more you realise you don’t know” seems to have a ring of truth. It seems that the more we learn about our Lord Jesus, the more we discover how far short we fall of His Glory as your bloggers have stated.
    Increasing dependence upon God comes from a growing realisation that the ultimate source of all goodness and the fruit of the Spirit is all from God and never from us (i.e. the flesh). That we continue to yearn with an increasing appetite for Jesus (and to become like Him in character) is I’m sure the means by which God has intended for us walk in greater submission to His will, transforming us to be like Him according to His schedule and according to His timetable rather than yours or mine.
    I am encouraged by verses like:
    I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. Gal 2:20
    We have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. … We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. 2 Co 4:7,10-11
    And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 2 Co 3:18
    For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life. Ro 5:10
    May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it. 1 Th 5:23
    There was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak (in the flesh), then I am strong (in Spirit). 2 Co 12:7b-10
    It’s refreshing to know that you and your bloggers struggle with the same realisation and disatisfaction. Frequently I am disappointed with myself, even discouraged because of my un-Christ-like attitude and responses. I guess we are poor judges of the transformational change that God is making within us. My job is to trust and obey – it’s His Life in me that transforms me; Thank goodness that’s His responsibility and task and…

64. C Michael Patton on 10 Sep 2009 at 9:35 am #

    Cadis,

    “I don’t think you can redefine and re-adjust on experience, can you?”

    Not supposed to according to some. But I am and do sometimes. I think we all do.

    Experience cannot be separated from the way you think, otherwise it is a insufficient worldview.

65. Larry K on 10 Sep 2009 at 9:38 am #

    Like many businesspersons, I receive more emails each day than I can read. For some reason, the Lord prompted me to read this post and all of the ensuing responses. I am enriched by them all.

    Regarding sanctification – I grew up in a very traumatic home and because of the sin dwelling in me, I chose many “broken cisterns” to aleviate the pain. Christ drew me to Himself my freshman year in college and I thought I had found the answer to all of my problems – including my horrific sins (many of which are not mentionable in most churches). While I longed for sanctification, my experience was one of great disconnect – not willing to come clean to fellow believers – while desperately needing loving Truth. My double life was killing me. (As an aside, I hid my sin so well that I have been asked 3 times to be an elder at our well-known evangelical far N. Dallas church). Christ has worked miraculously over the last year – wherein I no longer have to pretend to have all the answers, live a spotless life or think only pure thoughts. Mine is now a life of confession – admitting my failures and asking God to have His way with me. I know God’s presense in ways I could never have imagined. I am confident of my salvation (because of Scripture that assures me that it is not my behavior but Christ’s sacrifice that qualifies me for heaven). My life is still very messy – but Christ is here in and and with me. Sanctification is His work. As I abide (stay present) under His wing, I am amazed how he is changing my heart. And that is, I believe what sanctification is really about – heart change / willingness to stay close to Him / allow for and/or seeking the conviction of His Spirit / and crying out to Abba to conform my heart.

    Regarding departure from faith and or church: So many churches talk about living authentically but do not seem to know what to do with sinners! Holding up spiritual ideals and quoting Scripture did not draw me to repentence. (But, the kindness of God did). Just because believers in Christ do not love well or manifest the grace we should does not mean eternal life found only in Christ is not True and worthy of belief. That said, lack of love, mercy and grace reflect poorly on Christ and the church – thus the many admonitions to be Christ like. Our problem boils down to what Paul Tripp calls “apple nailing”. If I am not able to deliver good fruit, then I can just run to the local market, buy some bright red and delicious apples and nail them to my tree trunk. That way, I will look like I have what is called for. The start of my repentance was disavowing my apple nailing and allowing my fruit (usually unattractive and unedible) to hang limply from my tree. When I did, God whispered into my soul – “well done, my son” I love you like you are… and the miracle I promise you is life in my Son. Now that you are honest and confessing that your fruit is rotten, I can begin to pump life into you and behold, the fruit will become what I…

66. Geoff C on 10 Sep 2009 at 9:39 am #

    Apologies Michael for the length.

    The rest of the blog:

    Thank goodness that’s His responsibility and task and not mine. That’s why He’s our Saviour.

67. Rich on 10 Sep 2009 at 9:41 am #

    Thanks for sharing this. From a Lutheran perspective, your “more mature” definition of sanctification rings more closely to what we teach and experience. Been down that same road; and I have a few more years and a few more scars as evidence of that.

    An excellent book for this is: “Quest for Holiness” by Adolph Koeberle, where he examines in depth what you have wrestled with here.

    Thanks again.

68. Cindy Perez on 10 Sep 2009 at 10:05 am #

    Mine will be pretty short -

    After 27 years of belonging to Him, I feel less “good” than ever, but I do understand why — the more I learn of God, of Christ, the more my own sin becomes visible to me; and the sins that I once dismissed as “not so bad,” if abominable to God, are now abominable to me.

    I would venture to say that the “new” sins you speak of, Michael, are not new at all – our God of grace reveals more “layers of the onion,” as it were, as we grow up into Christ. The sin was always there – perhaps layers deep – and unrealized as sin until the “layers” on top of it are peeled back.

    I have only to ponder my definition of sin 25 years ago vs. today, to see how narrow the road has become that I gladly travel! Only His grace – I am STILL not any closer to deserving salvation than I was as a raw heathen. But as I love Him more, and strive to know His character and holiness, my own sin becomes more and more sinful.

69. Jon Orcutt on 10 Sep 2009 at 10:27 am #

    Dear Brother in Christ,
    I am glad that yoiu are revisiting the doctrine of sanctification. There is much confusion out “there” and in “here”. We, at least I have, tote around unbiblical and unsound definitios of key Biblical doctrines, and it hamstrings us as Christians. I know that in many contemporary (last 50 years) Evangelical circles the “Old Paths” are not much known or appreciated. So, here are some “Old paths” on the matter. Hope they help!
    Westminster Shorter Catechism:
    Q. 35. What is sanctification?
    A. Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.

    Westminster confession of Faith
    CHAPTER XIIIOf Sanctification
    They who are effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
    II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part: whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.
    III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome; and so, the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
    All of Grace,
    Jon, an older fella

70. Pam B. on 10 Sep 2009 at 10:51 am #

    Thanks Michael for the post. As the years have gone by, I too find myself crankier and struggling with judgemental attitudes and wanting comfort so I can get through things. Balanced against this I also find a deep desire for gut level honesty with the Lord and as you mentioned, being just broken before Him. I am tired of those voices that say in essence, cheer up, it’ll be okay! Maybe it will and maybe it won’t, but that is not the point. It is increasingly more important for me to be honest and intimate with Jesus. That’s what I want, even if I am crushed with disappointment in myself and my attitudes.
    There is a prayer I learned while going through the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises and a line in it that says “On each of my dyings shed your light and your love…” That is what I desire.
    Thanks again for your thoughts today.
    pb

71. Lynda on 10 Sep 2009 at 10:55 am #

    Michael,
    Thank you for sharing your heart with us. I too find myself struggling more lately with my “condition” instead of my “position”.
    I know that I am a child of God and will never be separated from that position but I am disappointed with people and let that fog my walk with God. If just briefly, we take our eyes off God and put them on Man, we set ourselves up for disappointment.
    I can only caution you that the sinful world is watching and waiting for you to fall. The devil waits too. Be strong!
    I pray that you will have strength, comfort and restful sleep while you continue to grow in Christ.

72. Edward T. Babinski on 10 Sep 2009 at 11:03 am #

    Hi again Michael,

    I was reading the comments… and everybody has their own idea… attempting to explain away all the difficulties involved with the notions of regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification, etc. Some said the trouble lay with relationshipism, inclusivism (or conversely exclusivism), minimization, realization, dissatisfaction, presumption, tribulation, reconstruction, chastisement, discipleship, etc. This post of yours might provoke more comments than any other.

    AT THE CLUB by Logan Pearsall Smith

    “It’s the result of Board School Education–”
    “It’s the popular Press—”
    “It’s the selfishness of the Working Classes—”
    “It’s the Cinema—”
    “It’s the Jews—”
    “Paid Agitators!—”
    “The decay of Faith—”
    “The disintegration of Family Life—”
    “I put it down,” I said, “to Sun-Spots. If you want
    to know,” I went inexorably on, “if you ask me the
    cause of all this modern Unrest—”

    IONS by Logan Pearsall Smith

    “Self-determination,” one of them insisted.
    “Arbitration!” cried another.
    “Co-operation?” suggested the mildest of the party.
    “Confiscation!” answered an uncompromising female.
    I, too, became slightly intoxicated by the sound of these
    vocables. And were they not the cure for all our ills?
    “Inebriation!” I chimed in, “Inundation, Afforestation,
    Flagellation, Transusbstantiation, Co-education,
    Co-operation!”

73. From The Balcony on 10 Sep 2009 at 11:03 am #

    Larry – I liked what you said: Mine is now a life of confession.

    That simple statement puts it all into perspective. It acknowledges our perpetual tendency towards sin — our admittance of that sin — and humbling ourselves before a holy God in repentance for the sin our bodies constantly tempt us with. It reminds me so much of Paul’s trial in this area — desiring to sin yet wishing he didn’t desire to do so. Rom. 7:18-etc.

74. Chris Skiles on 10 Sep 2009 at 11:06 am #

    Wonderful post , Michael.

    I commented to a friend recently, that it seems that the Christian life doesn’t get easier but harder as we get older.
    It seems that often when I pray for God’s help with a particular sin (i.e, my temper or lack of patience) he purposely does not answer that prayer. Why? I think (Not that I know the mind of God) that He refuses to be a heavenly bell hop. He wants our cry for help to come out of a genuine desparation for Him and his will.
    His word is not a manual to be opened when we need help and then tucked under the couch for future reference.
    His Word IS His son and He is revealed in the Word. It is Him we need and should desire not just right behavior.
    I too have had to rethink sanctification and it is much muddier now that 20 years ago in my thinking.
    It is encouraging to know that even though we don’t fully understand the process , He does.

75. Drew K on 10 Sep 2009 at 11:07 am #

    Wow! You tapped a gusher with this one Michael. I can’t even begin to digest all the permutations. This has rapidly become one of my favorite blogs. Love the give and take and the civility.

    Some of favorites from the archives are:
    http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/calvinists-often-make-the-worst-calvinists-2/
    because I am Calvinist and don’t want to be stereotyped
    http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/category/creationevolution/
    http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-gospel-of-the-young-earth/#more-365
    because I haved never been all that worked-up over this issue and am not sure what I believe other than :”evolution is a crock of feces.”
    http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/
    because I have been an atypical charismatic/continuationist

    The most intrigueing threads of this post were:
    1)the story of Mr. Babinski. My quote for him:

    There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “All right, then, have it your way.”
    C. S. Lewis

    2) Dennis Elenburg link to “Thinker/Feeler” artricle. http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/Truth/GodOfTruth.htm
    This could be a whole discussion by itself. Multiple discussions. This article could fuel a year’s worth of blogging!!!!

    PS I just started my own rudimentery blog. Not much there yet. All comers welcome. http://godisindog.blogspot.com/

76. Edward T. Babinski on 10 Sep 2009 at 11:50 am #

    Michael: “I was wondering if you ever doubt that you made the right decision leaving Christianity.”

    My decision was part of an organic process. It felt increasingly less honest of me to recite/repeat beliefs that I had increasing doubts about, from the inspiration of the Bible to the resurrection.

    Or I could reply in this manner, does a sane person doubt his decision to leave a mad house? I mean “mad” in the sense of confused and confusing. Neither is such confusion cleared up by the fact that Christians of nearly all denominations today recite the Apostle’s Creed because churches continue to split over far subtler differences of opinion (sometimes believing that those with rival interpretations are indubitably damned or on the road to leading themselves and others astray), and the creed itself has varying interpretations depending on whether one is conservative, moderate, or liberal.

    It all sounded to me like so much “pious talk.” All the explanations offered for the truth and perfection of my faith. My faith died the death of a thousand qualifications, because I had fully embraced a particular religious viewpoint and resisted a total overhaul of my mental pathways and arguments. So as questions arose I began qualifying my beliefs further and further till they were whittled down to the conclusion that I could no longer could say I believed as I once did.

    If I pine for anything it is for the calm certainty I once convinced myself I had. (Though even that came at the price of manic-depression, the joy of my salvation and fear of others damnation, which also seems to be part of the attraction of a faith in which there are only two options, eternal blessedness or eternal punishment.) Though I have since discovered another sort of calmness that comes simply with age and wisdom and the recognition that we’re all in this together.

    I might ask you a question as well. How do you account for the fact that most people stay put, become aclimatized or imprinted on their faith and culture? Mormons and Muslims and Buddhists can live their entire lives quite attached to their faith. Mormons in fact give more money to charity on average than any other Christian group according to nationwide poles. They stand out in preaching the necessity of tithing. While on the other hand there’s the “garbage eaters” sect of fundamentalist inerrantist King James Christians, who live on next to nothing, owning next to nothing, going around the country preaching wherever and whenever they can, memorizing the Bible, speaking in Bible verses with other members of the sect. There’s also Christian disciplinarian sects that have “camps” in the U.S. and other countries in which unruly children of Christian parents are taught more “godly” ways of behaving. On the other hand there’s people and entire universities whose minds change.

77. Mike M on 10 Sep 2009 at 11:57 am #

    I’ve been in ministry for 35 years. Pastor a large church. My life verse has been 1 Cor 14:1 (Pursue love above all else)

    I find it refreshing to know that I’m not alone in the struggle. It seems the longer I am in ministry the tougher it gets. Could also be the fatigue factor.
    What I think about these days is…. am I loving God and loving others more or less that i did this time last year? What does that look like? That is my life goal….and yet it seems so elusive. I want to finish well.

    Not discouraged, just perplexed. Great blog… I’m not alone in the struggle towards holiness.

    Thanks Michael for your input into my life and ministry! We’re supporting you both spiritually and financially.

78. Truth Unites... and Divides on 10 Sep 2009 at 11:58 am #

    Edward T. Babinski,

    Do you know of any apostates like yourself who became Christians after their interlude with apostasy?

79. Tom Randall on 10 Sep 2009 at 12:04 pm #

    “Collosians and Galatians says our sufferings fill up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ. wow. We never focused on those before. Our sufferings are needed by God? Scripture says so.”

    An earlier poster mentioned the above. I come back to it as a decade ago I suddenly stumbled on this part of Scripture. I really could not fit it into my Chritian understanding. That started my on a deep re-read of Scripture and I find what some might call contradictions and others would argue are differing nuances taht a beleiving Chritian can piece together to make sense.

    I was not able to piece things together however and ceased to be Chritian – a years long process.

    I still beleive in God as much as ever and that life continues after death.

    I just came to the conclusion that we can never even approach a true understanding of the truth – its like trying to speciically define a 4 dimensional world in 3 dimesional terms.

    My religious outlook has become more inclusive since – as others have mentioned above. I believe Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and others are all on the same journey as Christians. Struggling for a truth that, in our 3 -dimesional material world we can never really know. At that point I cane to respect all formal relions but chose to become a believer who does not profess a formal religion. I think each religion – from Chritianity to islam to Juadiam and the rest all have kernels of the truth but can never have the whole truth.

    I think your experience of having to re-look the meaning of sanctification because it does not make sense anymore to you – in the way you’ve previously understood it – is similar to what I went through when I started to relook teachings I’d thought I understood for a decade or more but which suddenly did not nicely fit anymore. It was a difficult period for me but a necessary one.

80. C Michael Patton on 10 Sep 2009 at 12:09 pm #

    Ed, I am not able to change this thread, even though the questions you bring up are wonderful and, indeed, confusing to me as well. Obviously, they are not faith stoppers for me like they are for you, but I have been where you were and have asked the same questions. The difference is that I cannot deny the historicity of Christianity even though there are subjective difficulties that create certain perceived inconsistencies. If I were to deny the faith based upon an it-just-seems-like-things-should-go-this-way approach, then I would go with the eternity of hell and why God does not predestine everyone. However, I don’t feel good about creating or denying reality the it seems to be simply because I would do things differently. If it is true, it is true even if God created all people to be damned as a part of a cosmic game. Truth is what I seek first, not comfort.

    Again, thanks for answering the questions, but since this thread is about a specific topic and there is a lot of activity, I don’t want it to get side tracked at all by a different conversation between you and me.

81. dale hersh on 10 Sep 2009 at 12:14 pm #

    sanctification is just a “head game” for anyone not utterly anchored to”justification.” ( to be “declared” as righteous, while the sin nature is still live and well). Living by faith, we look through our actual “condition” and see that God always sees the Righteousness of Christ. God has intended for this paradox to separate Christianity from all the religions which focus on the condition of the individual.

    As we rest in faith, we develope the confidence that, as Paul wrote, “It is not I, but Christ that liveth in me, and the the life i live in the flesh i live by the faith in the Son Of God that…….

    Remember, in Romans, it took 7 chapters to lay the groundwork to get to Sanctification in Ch. 8. thanks dale

82. Alfredo on 10 Sep 2009 at 12:15 pm #

    Ed,

    Far from “Truth Unites …’s” remarks, I believe God is more than happy to bear your questioning of Him. And I am sure that He has much better answers than we can imagine. Maybe, like Jesus said, we are just not ready to understand spiritual things.

    Your questions deserve answers. Nonetheless, they are not sufficient to rule out God’s existence nor His authority to do things His way regardless of whether we understand or not.

    I have asked myself many of the questions you have asked yourself and I have definitely strayed quite far from center. I am only making my way back (or is it Him having found His lost sheep and bringing it back?). One thing I rest assured on: What He starts, He finishes.

    Don’t stop asking. And, in His mercy, ask Him to give you answers.

83. David Zook on 10 Sep 2009 at 12:40 pm #

    A couple of thoughts.

    One, we are sanctified the minute we trust Christ. We are made holy, blameless, and stainless. God doesn’t look at us in the same way as he did before. This ought to give us a sense of relief and great joy that God does not see us as we see ourselves.

    Two, there is a process of progressive sanctification in which God continually chips away at our imperfections so that we may reflect his love, mercy, kindness, patience, etc. to the world.

    He allows all sorts of things to happen – from kids being born and dying, the diseases that we contract, relationships that break up, etc. to chip away our selfishness, dependence on others things beside him etc.

    This is one of the reasons that I love the Psalms. They are a window into our pain and suffering as we go through life so that we may find comfort when we need it. (Psalm 23 for example)

    Life ebbs and flows. Ecclesiastes 3 reminds us of that and is a great comfort to me.

    Peace,
    David

84. Jay on 10 Sep 2009 at 1:59 pm #

    I so reasonate with your thoughts Michael. Thank you for putting them to paper and for also leaving off the red bow.

85. Jim Tessin on 10 Sep 2009 at 2:03 pm #

    After reading your thoughts, I’m reminded of some very valuable thinking that I gathered from reading the Puritans. It goes something like this: the longer a Christian lives – the focus, and hence understanding, of his or her “heart” condition becomes less fuzzy and much clearer due to his or her real life experience. Their theology improves. The more he or she realizes what a moral cesspool of a heart they possess (Jer. 17:9), the understanding of their need for the person and work of Jesus Christ is greatly improved. Humility ensues.

86. Douglasah on 10 Sep 2009 at 2:22 pm #

    Perhaps the last “Definition” of sanctification is the best. Being male, and being an American I (and many others) tend to be task, or results oriented. I wonder if we should be more process/relationally focused. Perhaps sanctification isn’t a result but an effort – not so much a goal as a filter to direct our intentions/efforts.
    We like to think we can “Fix” things. It’s clear, we can see results/progress. We may even get some measure of satisfaction from feeling that our “Progress” is measureable, in a way. “I used to be only this holy – now I’m THIS holy…” What if we shouldn’t fixate on product, and instead concentrate on process. After all, the saints suffered so, do we focus on the fact that the big ones died young of horrible deaths – or do we focus on their faithfulness, and how they related to their experiences and others?
    What if sanctification wasn’t a result, but a method?

87. Luanne on 10 Sep 2009 at 2:51 pm #

    Dear Michael,

    Thank you for speaking the words I knew were in me but that I couldn’t find on my own.

    Even in my years of arrogant assuredness, I still knew my ugly potential. I just really believed that I would never act on it. After 26 years walking w/the Lord, I reached critical mass in my life and those words of warning from Scripture, “be careful if you think you stand lest you, too, fall….” proved accurate. I guess I really thought I stood because, boy……. did I fall.

    Being someone that people admired and looked up to as Christian example, my fall from grace hurt a lot of people, including the ones I love more than life itself; something that will cause me to live out the rest of my days with heart-wrenching regret.

    But here’s the flip-side that many other “strong” Christians who are like I once was, almost can’t stand to admit. Even in the midst of my new-found lowness, God still reached me with His hand of mercy………. and blessed me. An act that I believe was meant to powerfully rock my world to get my attention back on Him, also served to simultaneously show His inexplicable mercy & love for me very personally.

    Like you said of yourself, I too, used to have a Biblical answer for everything. I still do for the most part, that is to say what I believe to be the Biblical answer but I hope there is much more humility and grace seasoning my beliefs now.

    What I do know is this: Even when I was doing what I knew was completely against what God wanted me to do, I did not feel hate for God. I still loved Him & felt love for Him even as I sinned. I wanted to want to stop but it was too strong and I finally stopped trying to resist. Not in a spiritual way but in my human need for vigor & passion, I felt alive for the first time in a very long time. Having since repented, I pray to have that same vigor & passion but now in a God-pleasing way.

    Some would say that IF I actually did love God I would have obeyed Him. True; but it is also true that Paul loved God even though he readily admitted to struggling with doing what he knew he should not do. But I think this is the key – he was aware he shouldn’t and he really, honestly, deeply, & truly did not want to do the wrong things… even though he chose to do them. Often we think he just wrestled with being tempted to do certain wrong things but Scripture quotes Paul as saying the things he does not want to do, “that I do.“ So then could it be that the very wrestling is evidence of the sanctification process in us & the Spirit in us can/will serve to draw us/lead us precisely because we do love God?

    I don’t know; I sort of feel as though I’m rambling now but I do hope I conveyed, at the very least, gratitude for your candor, empathy for your wondering and encouragement that perhaps this place you find yourself at is not so bad after all. As for me, somehow I feel a little better than back when I knew it all.

88. Mike on 10 Sep 2009 at 3:31 pm #

    This is where an unhealthy preoccupation with a Wesleyan view of human nature and sin leads. It is when we realize our massively fallen condition, and our propensity toward rebellion and self-centeredness that we will be more loving toward fallen humans, and less self-righteous, and more content where God has us at the moment. We are always striving toward holiness, but we will always come into contact with our real selves in moments of introspection and despair. I believe Romans seven is a reality for a spirit filled believer, and not a pre-Christian Paul. It is also not an excuse for us to be a “Carnal” Christian, but it is the reality of understanding our condition before a holy God. When we grow in the understanding of His holiness, and our sin, we will grow in our appreciation for the cross of Jesus and the need for His sacrifice on our behalf. AS sson as we lose sight of His holiness or our sin, we will mitigate the need for the cross in our lives and His grace will only be a cliche. It is then that we turn our sanctification over to our “Good” deeds, and not His ongoing work in our lives. This will ultimately lead to either a self-righteousness or despair.

89. Aaron on 10 Sep 2009 at 4:29 pm #

    Thanks Michael. What a great post! Exactly right and encouraging to know that I am not the only one who thinks this way. Thanks for all you do and the Credo House. I hope to do something like it here in Sacramento. So I can fix people of course. Lol!

    Blessings,
    Aaron

90. Edward T. Babinski on 10 Sep 2009 at 4:50 pm #

    Author: Truth Unites… and DividesComment: “Edward T. Babinski, Do you know of any apostates like yourself who became Christians after their interlude with apostasy?”

    Yes. Though I also know of cases in which someone had an “interlude with Christianity” and then left the fold. I also agree that few people would care to consider their present beliefs a mere interlude. But changes of all sorts have been recorded.

    What interests me most are cases in which people (and organizations such as major universities) of high caliber, deep study and religious devotion) were dragged kicking and screaming from their founding beliefs. Sort of like C. S. Lewis but in reverse.

    As for C. S. Lewis’ own testimony, it’s not nearly as close to that sort of testimony as he depicted it. He read Chesterton (apologetics light) and went to the zoo and recalls becoming a Christian on the way back, following in the footsteps of his brother and also Dom Bede Griffith, and some others at university. Then in his first Christian novel, The Pilgrim’s Regress, Lewis constructed straw man after straw man so he could blow them all down and convince himself he had made the right decision. He stuck with it, though after running across George McDonald and one Catholic mystic he seriously considered universalism, but admitted he could not because Jesus spoke so plainly about unending punishment. Lewis also viewed Genesis and Job as stories, myths. And he remarked on the tension between believing in the inerrancy of Scripture and the goodness of the Deity depicted therein, in which case he opted for errancy rather than an evil Deity. And he was inclusive, believing that people of other religions could be anonymous “Christians” and let into heaven. Lastly, Lewis also noted that Jesus was so human he could speak a false prophecy concerning the soon return of the Son of Man. All in all, Lewis was quite the humanist, and I appreciate him, though his close life long friend and fellow convert, Dom Bede Griffiths went even further in the direction of inclusivity, getting Lewis to make even further admissions in that respect in personal letters composed soon before Lewis’ death.

    But getting back to your question concerning people who flirted with agnosticism/atheism, there’s the former Pentecostal minister in my book Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists. Left Pentecostalism and Christianity for a few years, then came back on his own terms, starting a new church/denomination all on his own. Another such person is named Jordan, who apparently was a member of an atheist group for a few years, but heard a Christian apologist speak in person and on the radio, and converted. However, coincidence of coincidences, that same Christian apologist phoned me soon after my book appeared to let me know he had deconverted.

91. Edward T. Babinski on 10 Sep 2009 at 4:59 pm #

    Author: C Michael PattonComment: “Ed, Thanks for the reply. ‘Or I could reply in this manner, does a sane person doubt his decision to leave a mad house? I mean ‘mad’ in the sense of confused and confusing.” Too much of a conversation stopper for me.”

    I feared it might be, but I meant it in the sense that everything seems normal to the people on the “inside,” whether they be snake handling Christians, Mormons, garbage eaters, Adamites (worshiped in the nude), Skoptzie (cut off their testicles), or “fools for Christ” who used to disrupt services, or Donatists (who were certain their church was purer because none of their bishops had committed apostasty under coercion during the Roman persecutions).

    I could go on, the sects are endless, Arians, Socians, Unitarians, Arminians, Calvinists, Quakers, Shakers, Puritans, Catholics, Orthodx, some flat earth Christians, some defenders of geocentrism, many sects, a multitude of disagreements, all citing the Bible and the Spirit’s wisdom given them for interpreting it the right way. And the many many excommunications, exiles and other adventures that took place as a result.

    But from the inside each member of each sect saw their’s as the one true church or the closest approximation thereof, and felt safer and further from hell as a result.

92. Tom Randall on 10 Sep 2009 at 5:04 pm #

    Regarding Edward Babinski’s comments on universalism. Origen, considered a church father, went down the path of universal salvation and saw hell as ultimately a temporary state.

    Of course, his side did not win out. However, if you look at the early “heresies” there were in the immediate decades/century or two after the death of the last apostle, there were many varied interpretations of “the way”.

    The concept of the Trinity as it evovled left many doubters. I’ve read that one reason some Eastern Christians so easily converted to Islam was because it’s teachings aligned more closely with some of the “heresies” which seem to have been especially present in the East.

93. Edward T. Babinski on 10 Sep 2009 at 5:13 pm #

    Author: C Michael PattonComment: “Ed, I am not able to change this thread, even though the questions you bring up are wonderful and, indeed, confusing to me as well… I don’t feel good about creating or denying the way reality seems to be simply because I would do things differently. If it is true, it is true even if God created all people to be damned as a part of a cosmic game. Truth is what I seek first, not comfort.”

    But “reality” seems to be what? I have asked others and received a curious assortment of answers concerning how much they have each personally seen or heard of resurrections, heaven, hell, Jesus and the Trinity and bloody sacrifices cleansing “sins” past present and future. I sought truth and found questions. One does not need to consciously deny a belief in order to reach the state in which one admits it would be dishonest to say one still believed as one once did.

    As for claiming that you’d follow the truth even if God created all people to be damned, that is way beyond any level of faith I currently possess. Even if true, I do not feel it in my soul to respect such a God at all, no obligation whatsoever to respect such a God. All one could hope in such a case is to resort to a Buddhistic patience that such a God would eventually get his head screwed on right.

94. Edward T. Babinski on 10 Sep 2009 at 5:30 pm #

    Alfredo, I very much appreciate your post number 81 above. Thanks and I certainly hope along with you and all who hope in what is good, loving, kind, intelligent and happy, a good God or a good force, and personal immortaliy. Neither do I deny myself the right to pray, meditate, or ponder. But I also acknowledge questions that are immensely disturbing and burdensome, as well they might be in either an atheist’s universe or a theist’s. Take your pick. Pascal’s wager might be a way for me to go, but I have taken the leap of faith, I was devoutly born again, elected president of my campus Christian group, evangelized, wrote love songs for my savior, dated Christian women (kissed, no fondling or anything beneath the belt, I remained chaste), cleaned gutters of fellow church goers, was baptised as an adult (and a baby, having been raised Catholic), was “baptized in the holy spirit” (felt intense joy while praying), spoke in tongues (at a later date), and later studied theologies of all sorts, Lutheranism, Calvinism. I was and still am a truth seeker. But we all are in our own eyes truth seekers, and/or finders. On the inside all of our beliefs seems normal, including whatever level of doubting we each endure concerning various questions.

95. C Michael Patton on 10 Sep 2009 at 5:33 pm #

    OK, back on track. Sanctification.

96. C Michael Patton on 10 Sep 2009 at 5:38 pm #

    Concerning the leaving Christianity issue, I will just have to point people here: http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/05/leaving-christianity-a-christian-epidemic/

97. Pat on 10 Sep 2009 at 6:21 pm #

    Michael, thank you for this post. I have been a Christian for over 50 years and find that I am still able to be quite a stinker at times. I have always thought of sanctification as a lifelong goal. We are to work out our salvation and this is reinforced when the Bible speaks to us in 1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” We are saved and “being saved”.

    We continually strive to be more like Jesus knowing full well we cannot achieve that goal. We will never fully understand all that God has in mind for us. All we can do is trust Him to finish the good work He started in us. We just need to get out of our own way sometimes.

    I have full confidence that my sanctifiction will be perfect and complete when my life on earth is over. After all, that’s God’s promise and I trust it to be true.

98. From The Balcony on 10 Sep 2009 at 6:31 pm #

    Jon (you older fella you….)!!

    I loved your post. It was an awesome reminder of what the definition of sanctification really is — instead of what the modern church distorts it to be. (Post 69)

    As the Confession explains, “This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part: whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.”

    Why then do we find it so hard to believe and accept that this struggle is not normal for our fallen condition? Further, why do we allow this struggle to cause us to reject something we know in our heart is true?

    I think the answer lies in something I just read about The Fall — “The biblical God remains a massive threat to illusions of moral autonomy. The result is that even though a man may be convinced of the truth of God’s existence, that intellectual assertion in itself could not overcome the moral inclination to flee from that truth. Man’s corruption is such that he will do everything in his power to disprove, combat, obscure and deny the truth of that knowledge. (Sproul, of course….. )

    It will always be our struggle during this season to choose rebellion — but it is normal considering our condition. After all, we want it our way — we want to believe only in our perceived truth/knowledge — we choose only to trust in what we desire to be true (which in fact could be a lie, but we choose it because we like power it gives us to make that choice.) We like the power surge we get from manipulating the truth in our favor. That’s a big mistake and it’s the same thing that Satan did to Eve. Feelings can be dangerous…..

    Thus, Michael – you are normal

99. Gisela on 10 Sep 2009 at 6:46 pm #

    Your reflections ring a bit Job-like to me…

100. carl peteson on 10 Sep 2009 at 7:23 pm #

     I liked your little essay on santification. I think often as we grow closer to God we see more and more of our depravity without him and more of our weaknesses. Somethings we never thought of as sin before become bigger sins later. We see more and more how were are fallen creatures and not God.

101. Cadis on 10 Sep 2009 at 8:39 pm #

     Michael,
     Don’t make me bring your own words against you. And..
     I’m a Fundamentalist , I don’t have a world view, let alone a sufficient one. ?? .Honestly, I don’t understand that.

     What I do understand is .. No Joke, we all have things we face that give us cause for depression. Please, don’t toy with depression! Here’s some sanctification….
     Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
     Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
     Php 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

     Your not that complicated. Your answer is that simple. I’ll admit there are some head banger cases out there but I don’t think your that complicated and I’m not ashamed to say and I don’t feel arrogant to say.. I know the answer! a year of therapy and a couple thousand bucks would only confound and take advantage of your “depression” God in 86 words, free words, gives you the best advice only the maker of the universe can give. Take it. That is sanctification.

102. Jennifer A. Miskin-Flake on 10 Sep 2009 at 9:00 pm #

     THANK you!

103. Brian Eckes on 10 Sep 2009 at 9:05 pm #

     Powerful post Michael. I am quite ignorant about the ‘process of sanctification,’ so I won’t post too long a comment. However, I totally agree with your revised definition of sanctification; it feels like it is closer to reality.

     Maybe we have to redefine sanctification for ourselves at each stage of our lives? Also, more importantly, we should redefine it through the lens of scripture and rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us personally.

104. #John1453 on 10 Sep 2009 at 10:08 pm #

     I do agree with some of the things CMP wrote, and I do empathize with the sanctification struggle, but the redefinition struck me as an exercise in moving the goal posts without a determination of whether it’s the goal posts that need to be moved. Moreover, the limitation to only two options appears to be an example of the fallacy of the excluded middle. So, yeah, I get the struggle, but I don’t buy the analysis, not that I have solutions of my own to offer at this time. I’m not the all-knowing, all-seeing owl man.

     Regards,
     #John

105. Edward T. Babinski on 10 Sep 2009 at 10:11 pm #

     Drew, That Lewis quotation also made me wonder whether or not the Lewis Estate could sue the Burger King corporation. “Have it your way?” Hmmm.

106. Edward T. Babinski on 10 Sep 2009 at 10:12 pm #

     Drew, I suggest the website tentmaker.org
     which is run by an Evangelical Christian
     and also the blog, The Evangelical Universalist
     If you want to learn more about the topic.

107. Angela Zimmerman on 10 Sep 2009 at 10:58 pm #

     Michael,
     I too have become less enamored with church. We are part of a small home church community, and even that has been less than satisfactory. What I’ve come to realize is this:

     1. Nothing is perfect this side of Heaven. And by perfect I mean complete. The church itself is a walk of sanctification. As a body moves when the joints and members move with it, it can also be hindered when the joints and members are hindered. Interestingly, as we physically age, our joints and members cooperate less if we fail to exercise and eat well. Hence, the church. Unforeseen problems occur. Frustration ensues. People don’t cooperate. We begin to see that Advil temporarily cures the body’s ailment just as a powerful Bible study or a featured speaker cures the church. Yet this is the place where my faith has increased ten-fold; where God has exposed Truth in such a profound and uncanny way that one cannot deny the existence of the Spirit among the brethren.

     2. Agape and Phileo love are increasingly difficult. When Truth is exposed it comes with itself a particular level of responsibility. I call it the responsibility of joy: and that is love. What’s not to love about our church members? Ah, when they challenge our teachings; when they don’t respect our work; when they question God; when they refuse to think outside the box. And then I realize it’s ME with the problem. I blindly enter into the relationship with a certain level of expectation, but when MY expectations aren’t met, I grow increasingly weary of the individual. Foolishness sets in and my heart is hardened; no love can penetrate and the humbleness of the Holy Spirit is my only cure. And I know this. Time begs a response. I have a choice to ignore or–once again–be sanctified by Truth. Hebrews 12:4-6 is a bitter but hopeful reminder.

     3. Of these two things above I find that intimacy with Christ and living missionally is the cure–at least for me. And that means I must intentionally spend time getting to know my Savior through His walk, His teachings, His expectations and His commands. Then I must share with others with no worldly expectation. As a matter of fact, I realize my resolve must be to share with the only expectation as persecution, for we are savages with or without sin. In serving, evangelizing or teaching, I nearly expect a savage response. Anything above that is to God’s full and complete Glory. None of it belongs to me. And sanctification has it’s fulfillment in God’s glory when we not only recognize that, but live for it.

108. Dave Z on 10 Sep 2009 at 11:41 pm #

     Sanctification has more to do with how often you are broken before him, not your stoic ability to deal with pain.

     I don’t know. As I understand the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the broken parts are supposed to be getting better. Hebrews 10:14 says we are being made holy.

     I like your first definition better.

     I just know that my level of trust in God is much greater than it used to be.

     And you know, I don’t think we see Paul, Peter and Co. being constantly broken. They acknowledge their failures but don’t seem to be fixated on them.

109. JoanieD on 11 Sep 2009 at 6:16 am #

     Edward, thank you for your posts about C.S. Lewis. He is one of my theological heroes! You wrote a post that appeared in my email but I don’t see it on the blog. That was the one that included the link to the faithalone.org site to read more about Lewis’ understanding of the Bible. I won’t put the link here in case that’s why your post has not shown up yet, but I like the quotation you took from there: “Referring to the notion that ‘every sentence of the Old Testament has historical or scientific truth,’ C. S. Lewis admitted: ‘This I do not hold, any more than…Calvin did when he doubted whether the story of Job were history or fiction.’ ”

     I believe much of the Old Testament is allegorical, mythical. It doesn’t mean the stories don’t contain truths or that they are not beautiful. (I love Job myself.) But it does mean they are not always historical or scientific. When I get bogged down with thoughts about “Is this true?” “Do I have to believe this to be a REAL Christian?” and the like, I remember that it was human beings who sat down and wrote these things. Human beings like you and me who were still finding their way in the world and in understanding God. It doesn’t mean I won’t take direction from some of the most intelligent and wisest men and women who have studied the Bible and its history much more than I have, but it means I need to also use the mind that God has given me to come to an understanding about these things that allows me to live life with peace and to not look at everyone with thoughts about whether they are going to hell or not!

     I understand about Lewis (and N.T. Wright) not being quite willing to say that in the end ALL will be with God because of Jesus’ statements about hell and eternity. But I also know lots of people say that the word for “eternal” that Jesus used could be understood to mean something more like “long time” than “forever.” I think the jury is still out on that one. Jesus does have a parable about people being in jail UNTIL they have paid their debt. That would indicate an end to punishment at some point. Part of our problem in understanding end of times stuff is that we are functionning within time and cannot really conceive of a never-ending eternity.

     Some folks say that if we will all be with God eventually anyway, what is the point about telling the Good News about Jesus. Well, if people know about the goodness and love of God, they can perhaps live their lives here on earth with more peace and love themselves. Perhaps they can help to bring about the Kingdom of God here on earth.

     Michael, I know this is off-topic. If Edward wants to continue any of this talk with me, you are welcome to give him my email.

     Take care, everyone!

110. Kipp on 11 Sep 2009 at 7:02 am #

     Michael,

     I know I’m late to the party on this one–already over 100 comments and all. But I just have to say, “wow.” Another mug-raise to you, brother. Thank you for this.

111. Edward T. Babinski on 11 Sep 2009 at 9:47 am #

     Hi JoanieD,

     Nicely put. My email is obtainable via googling my full name with the middle initial on the internet.

     I’m unsure why my post is missing. Here it is below.

     Drew,

     Thanks for the Lewis quotation:

     “There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, ‘All right, then, have it your way.’”–C. S. Lewis

     But according to Lewis people might even be saved who were not Christians in name.

     Lewis also admired the universalist George MacDonald a lot, calling him, “my spiritual mentor,” and including him as a character in The Great Divorce. In that novel that character escorts a visitor from hell around heaven, where the visitor eventually chooses to remain.

     Note also that in The Problem of Pain, a work published before The Great Divorce, Lewis had assumed that the orthodox Christian doctrine of hell had “the full support of Scripture”. But in The Great Divorce Lewis has the George MacDonald character deny that the orthodox Christian doctrine of hell has the “full support of Scripture,” by having MacDonald say, “St Paul talked as if all men would be saved.” Neither did Lewis have the angel (whom George was speaking to in the novel) deny George’s interpretation of St Paul’s words, but only reply that it was not for man to ask such questions. Yet Lewis felt strongly enough about that possibility to raise that question in one of his novels for all his readers to ponder. Lewis even added a saying in the novel from the mystical Catholic Universalist, Julian of Norwich (who believed she had rec’d a vision directly from Jesus that hell would be emptied and all manner of things would be well).

     It was in a little book called Salvation and Damnation by a Jesuit priest named Dalton that I first learned about the verses written by St. Paul that suggested “all would be saved.” That little book by Dalton opened my eyes to a universalistic view of salvation that has ever after seemed a superior moral view. If Lewis had also considered more deeply the intertestamental origins of the notion of eternal punishment and apocalypse, he might also have concluded that such speech was not necessarily for all times, but in the manner of speaking of that day and age, just as Lewis accepted that Jesus’ speech about the end of the world was.

112. Edward T. Babinski on 11 Sep 2009 at 10:00 am #

     The topic of Sanctification brings to mind this month’s cartoon inside Christianity Today which illustrates the way that pious speech and speaking in theological phrases (God talk) so easily can become a habit, such that people convince themselves they are saying something when they really are not saying much of anything. This cartoon in Christianity Today (Sept. 2009 issue) could have been composed by, say, an agnostic:

     Two people sitting at a table together talking with hot coffee mugs in their hands:

     A: So, what are you reading?
     B: It’s titled, “How to over spiritualize _everything_.”

     A: Hmmm, sounds interesting.
     B: Oh, it definitely is! It’s as if the Lord is whispering His will in my ear.

     A: Mmm, this is great coffee!
     B: This coffee is like the Holy Spirit warming my soul.

     A: What I mean is that it tastes great…
     B: It’s amazing how we were to lovingly created w/ the miraculous ability to taste.

     A: OK, stop talking like that before I kill you.
     B: Oh to suffer a martyr’s death would bless my life!

113. Tom Randall on 11 Sep 2009 at 10:40 am #

     Seeing sanctifification as a process, not one time event, does make more sense. It aligns with the Mormon teaching on santification which made more sense to me when I first learned about it while speaking with Mormom missionaries.

114. Tom Randall on 11 Sep 2009 at 1:04 pm #

     “It was in a little book called Salvation and Damnation by a Jesuit priest named Dalton that I first learned about the verses written by St. Paul that suggested “all would be saved.””

     Interesting. I believe Origen who speculated on a universal salvation in part took that from Paul’s writings.

     Scripture says God desires that all men come to a knowledge of the truth. In other words that all men come to salvation. That verse blew away my tenuous belief in pre-damnation/destination.

     But it goes further. If one believes Scripture is inspired word and God desires all men to come to truth then he must provide a way for them to do so. That immediately brings up the problem of those who never have heard the Gospel preached. Which is a large majority of those who have ever lived.

     We can only speculate what other ways God brings man to salvation.

115. C. Barton on 11 Sep 2009 at 1:58 pm #

     Good job M! I’ve been mulling over these same things lately myself, as apparently many others also.
     Spiritual maturation is a concept perhaps little understood, and sanctification has to be a big part of it, I think. When I was just a babe, I was cradled and shielded from a lot of hard things, but when I was able to walk, He set me down and let me take a few steps (before I fell flat!). So as we mature spiritually, we will be challenged with more of real-life things, and many of them are unlovely, to say the least. But let me ask this question? How many others are facing the same unlovely things without Christ? Wouldn’t they want to see how Jesus-in-us handles what the world dishes out?
     Anyone can do thi right things when there is no pressure on; the world needs to see how the Holy Spirit leads us through the worst stuff, or the greatest temptations, and have the victory.
     Lastly, God gave us a life to do with what we will; He eagerly waits, I think, to see us invest our lives in truly good things with diligence so He can reward us – but it has to be our choice.

116. Scott Ferguson on 11 Sep 2009 at 4:11 pm #

     TomR – the United Methodist Church (all Arminians?) view sanctification as a process as well, possible only with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course*. There seems to be little room for any redefinition of sanctification away from a meaning of becoming more Christ-like.

     It seems to me (desperately trying to keep my atheist hat off the top of my head) that taking a term with a seemingly “plain” meaning and assigning it an orthogonal definition (one that is not opposite but clearing not pointing in the same direction) is dangerous territory. If we allow ourselves to do this, what word is safe? Which term can hold fast in face of our failed expectations?

     Wouldn’t it be better to discard the concept in the light of experience (Hi Ed! – like my hat?) or at least throw up our hands and acknowledge that we should avoid that term because of our inability to understand it? While it may seem to aid us in our reflection and meditation, merely redefining a term according to our whim ultimately does violence to the language and muddles our thinking.

     * – From Wikipedia: Sanctification
     “John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, taught what is known as entire sanctification in the Holiness movement churches, such as the Church of the Nazarene, the Salvation Army, etc., or Christian Perfection in “mainstream” Methodist denominations, such as the United Methodist Church, the Methodist Church of Great Britain, etc. This is the doctrine that by the power of God’s sanctifying grace and attention upon the means of grace may cleanse a Christian of the corrupting influence of original sin in this life, though not every Christian may experience this. It is explained in depth in the Articles of Religion in the Book of Discipline of the Methodist Church.

     “For mainstream Methodists, it is a life-long process of healing humanity’s sin-distorted perspective and way of life.”

117. Drew K on 11 Sep 2009 at 5:11 pm #

     Mr. Babinski,
     Thank you for your comments.
     Lewis was very instrumental in my being regenerated(born-again), despite the fact that he was high-church Anglican. Lewis was key for my mind. But it was what I consider a sovereign act of God that converted me. It was beyond persuasion or mental assent. I was not becomming a disciple of CS Lewis. So his various views that may be considered somewhat unorthodox make no difference. I grew up in church (Lutheran) but the whole thing was never real to me. Until… He found me. Are you familiar with the poem, The Hound of Heaven? http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hound_of_Heaven
     I was the pursued not the pursuer. I guess my calvinist colors are showing ( but I was calvinist before I knew the name, just my reading of Scripture convinced me. Scripture also made no sense before regeneration. Then suddenly it did. Not to say I understand it all.)

     And Yes, perhaps The Lewis estate could sue Burger King. Had to chuckle at this. Touche!

     Appreciate your conversing here and also quite surprised and intrigued you’ve stuck around so long.

     The point of my Lewis quote was God owes me no exhaustive answers, but I owe Him everything.

118. Nathaniel on 11 Sep 2009 at 6:36 pm #

     Children of God are more than the sum of the good they can accomplish. They are God’s, whether they do good or cannot yet manage anything. Our sanctification depends on Gods power and not our skill set. Each believer must, in a sense, let God carry them to where they do not wish to go. That path is NOT rooted in what we want, but in where he takes us. It is sometimes very dark and we lack the fervor for spiritual things. We are depressed and unsettled, but we STILL carry on because we know in whom we belong; our identity is sure. No one would choose sanctification if they really knew what it does to the person; that is why He must carry us.

     As long as purpose remains intact, we can trust Him. And even if purpose is elusive for a time, His power will succeed. Where do we go to find purpose in the process? Love! But love cannot really be grasped or exercised apart from poverty of heart. Because hope is its prerequisite. And faith is the power that brings us there. Being poor in spirit is really the only way to truly ‘Hope’. And if hope has its place in our interior, then love will surely follow.

     And love is the KEY to lucidly SEE sanctification working in our lives. The day you learn to give freely and receive freely, having a disinterested heart, you will know that sanctification began its work in your life a very long time ago.

119. Jonathan on 11 Sep 2009 at 6:57 pm #

     I think i’ll stick my head in the sand a bit longer.

     Why does Michael have to scare me like that? Why does he make me think of these things? I was kinda liking the idea that God would make me holy and that i would be holy and nice like how i think God our Father is. Instead, I’m getting to be more like Jesus…. cranky, irritable, getting annoyed at the disciples for being dense, getting annoyed at the whole nation for being stupid, getting annoyed at pharisees for being such a brood of vipers and hypocrites. *sigh*

     I may get hit by a truck in the meantime, but at least i won’t see it.

120. Edward T. Babinski on 11 Sep 2009 at 7:41 pm #

     Hi Drew K!

     Thanks for your description of God pursuing you like a hound, yes I’ve read the poem. But if God is pursuing everyone then He appears to be doing it rather stealthily from what I can tell. I don’t deny that you interpret your own conversion as a forceful tracking endeavor by God that left you no place to turn by Him, though neither would I deny that others might interpret your conversion differently. Such as, not having any answers to various arguments put to you by Christians, or a loneliness or deep inner need to belong to a group, or attraction to various people, or a need to feel you were right about something, and that the world was spinning for a reason, a specific reason, or a love of beauty and a mystical delight in the world. I admit I cannot say not knowing your individual experience. Though I will say I have heard a wide variety of testimonies of all types from all people, testimonies entering various folds and leaving them. I edited a book of such and retain an interest in such stories. I’m even familiar with stories by Christians of different denominations who convert say from Evangelical to Catholic or Calvinist (and there’s always conversions to Orthodox Christianity as well) or any of them the other way round. There’s books featuring such stories. Scott Hahn was a Protestant minister and became a fervent Catholic apologist. His story involves coincidences that he interprets as God leading him toward the one true church, etc., with the accompanying joy of the discovery of the true truth, not that semi-true truth that other Christians believe. See my online discussion of the variety of such testimonies, “The Uniqueness of the Christian Experience”

121. C Michael Patton on 11 Sep 2009 at 7:52 pm #

     Guys, this is the second time… this conversation is not going in this direction. No need to give testimonies in anything other than that which relates to the current topic. If someone asks you a question that will lead off topic, politely tell them that they can email you.

122. Edward T. Babinski on 11 Sep 2009 at 7:56 pm #

     Hi Scott Ferguson,

     Speaking of sanctification (you mentioned Wesley), let me put my own question this way…

     Christians have the cleansing waters of baptism,

     AND they have the Lord’s Supper, the “living bread which came down from heaven,” the body and blood of Jesus–”if ye do not eat my body and drink my blood ye shall not have life within ye” (John 6: 51-59) interpret that however you will–but also note it’s such a serious gift that if you don’t celebrate the Lord’s Supper in the right manner you can anger God so much He may make “many of you ill” or may even kill you according to Paul in 1 Cor.,

     AND they have prayer and fasting,

     AND they have prayers and psalms to recite from the world’s only directly God-inspired book,

     AND they have the Holy Spirit “leading them into all truth,”

     AND, they have the promise that “where sin abounded grace abounded all the more.” Grace is literally “divine favor,” something that God hands out. And he has infinitely big hands.

     So what can possibly go wrong with the Sanctification process?

123. Karen Bettencourt on 11 Sep 2009 at 8:16 pm #

     Thank you, thank you! I am a re-surfaced Christian: raised as one, wandered the philosophical realms looking for the truth, realized I had it already and am working on knowing more and more through the theoloy program. I have been asking myself this same question about sanctification. After ten years of study, going more and more in depth, why do I feel less and less worthy? Thank you for your perspective, it really helps!

124. Alfredo on 11 Sep 2009 at 10:49 pm #

     Feeling less worthy can only be the evidence of measuring oneself to a higher standard. Sounds like santification to me.

     Even if it doesn’t produce “perfect fruit” it is evidence that we are in the right direction.

     As for how God will deal with His “lost” children, that is entirely up to Him. I have three children and I want them to follow the path I have shown them but it will be their choice whether they do or not. Will I love them anyway? Absolutely! Will I stop wanting them to be “righteous” after they have gone astray? No, because I don’t have to relinquish MY nature only because they don’t want to follow my teachings.

     Thus, who are we to expect to understand how God will deal with His lost children? And, why should we expect that God needs to let us understand how He will deal with them?

     He wants all to be saints and He pursues that with those who follow Him. It is His nature. But, who are we to question how He will deal with that which we don’t understand?

     I can see no better way for the world to be a better place than following Him. So, in the end, we win because our lives are pointed in the right direction and, even when we stray, we are not that far away from His desired path. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

125. Edward T. Babinski on 11 Sep 2009 at 11:20 pm #

     Hi Alfredo,

     I like your attitude. Like you I love people regardless of their beliefs, though unlike what you wrote, I find the idea of eternal punishment accepted as blithely as you seemed to do, quite unnerving. Are you really as cool and calm about it all as “Oh sure I love my kids, but of course they might go to hell for eternity, but whatcha gonna do?”

     Then Christians like you blame atheists for living their lives day to day and not thinking much about an eternity of personal extinction, and you wonder how they can do it. Well, it seems you’ve just demonstrated how it’s done, at least the Christian way of doing it.

     I guess we all live day to day when it comes down to it, and live with fears and hopes. That’s about all you can say.

     So do you hold to the new “hell lite” point of view of modern day cosmopolitan post-Enlightenment Christianity? Or the old Calvinist, “Praise God and rejoice in the eternal suffering of the damned” point of view?

     I also question whether the world would be a better place if everyone “followed Him,” unless you define “following Him” as simply being nice to one another. Because “following Him” in some formal way, via a specific holy book and specific religious practices and beliefs just doesn’t seem possible. Too much room for interpretation this side of the grave I’d say. Sure you can continue to argue for particular beliefs and religious practices, but others are just as devout as you, and willing to argue just as much for theirs, nor even not argue, but simply practice something different and believe something different, and not even care about “following Him” as YOU claim to know Him.

     I think religion is Darwinian and religions keep changing, mutating, like an evolutionary tree of life with new offshoots arising, some thriving, growing new branches while others shrivel, etc.

126. Alfredo on 11 Sep 2009 at 11:40 pm #

     Ed,

     Regarding: “Oh sure I love my kids, but of course they might go to hell for eternity, but whatcha gonna do?”

     No, just the contrary. I love them so much that even if they don’t follow my path I would give them my best!!!

     That’s not biblical, I know, but there’s just no way I can be more loving than God. A God that asks us to forgive 70 times 7.

     My point is, I’m not going to anguish over what I cannot understand. I have tried my best (believe me) to understand all about Him but have come to realize that it just won’t happen.

     I’ll do my best to follow Him (if I can call it that; I fail miserably), and leave it all in His hands.

     BTW, by “follow Him” I mean obeying His teachings and trying my best to be like what He would want me to be.

     I have a thousand questions. But, you know what, the first thing I don’t understand and makes no sense to me is how come I exist.

     Instead of “I think therefore I am” I would say “I exist therefore He is”.

127. C Michael Patton on 11 Sep 2009 at 11:43 pm #

     Back off topic. Ed, no need to respond any more. Good things to talk about, not on this tread.

128. Alfredo on 11 Sep 2009 at 11:49 pm #

     Michael,

     You are right. Sorry about that.

     Alfredo.

129. harry pierce on 12 Sep 2009 at 12:41 am #

     Good thinking Michael. The longer I live the more I am aware of my weaknesses and my dependence on GOD.

130. JoanieD on 12 Sep 2009 at 8:12 am #

     To Edward in post #22: spoken like a true Christian!

     To all: I agree it is God who sanctifies us, not anything we do. BUT…I believe it is possible for us to spend time in prayer in a way that allows God to more easily remove the barriers that we place between ourselves and God. I practice Centering Prayer as taught by Thomas Keating, William Menninger and others. Over time, it can lead to being in contemplative prayer where you just rest in God…”be still and know that I am God.” Again, it is not US doing the action; God does the action in us. But remember, John the Baptist also advised people to “prepare the way of the Lord.”

131. Drew K on 12 Sep 2009 at 10:28 am #

     Michael, etal.

     Sorry for getting off track. Think I’m done on this thread then.

132. Stuart on 13 Sep 2009 at 8:28 am #

     I can relate to your experience.

133. Luke on 13 Sep 2009 at 12:20 pm #

     Michael,
     Awesome post! I cannot agree with you more. Forgive me if what I’m about to say has already been covered in the comments (131! whoa!).

     I think that our continued sanctification (second def) causes us to more deeply understand our absolute need for a Savior. This conviction cuts at the throat of human pride and our sin nature. We don’t like the idea of being wholly dependent on anything for anything.

     I think that the further depressed feeling comes from us taking what we now understand about ourselves and projecting it onto the rest of humanity. We more pain and suffering and seems pointless; we also see pain and suffering caused by the shear evil in man’s heart. We see the depth of the need of the world for Christ more and more as we recognize and understand our own need for Him.

     When we see this our hearts hurt for the lost and the evangelical side of us rises up to the cause of the Great Commission. But, even after that we see the immense task that is at hand and grow discouraged.

     I like the fact that you recognize that just because we believe that Jesus Christ saved us does not mean that we don’t struggle with our sin nature (heck, even Paul did) and all the implications of being “human”. Depression and discouragement are two of those implications. We aren’t in our glorified bodies yet; and until we are, we will recognize that our current state is less than what will be. When we are in our glorified bodies, we will be able to look back on the pain and suffering that we experienced and appreciate our glorified bodies to the fullest.

     This, I believe, is one of God’s reasons for allowing what we experience (the good to whet our appetite for our future, the pain to fully appreciate it when we get there). When we get there, our sanctification will be complete and glorification can take place.

     Your ministry is vital in all this. God has placed you in a particularly valuable position, because you can speak from experience to help encourage the rest of the Body.

134. Kurt C on 14 Sep 2009 at 1:11 pm #

     I have been experiencing the same frustrations expressed in the subject post, but I took a look at the entire chapter 5 of Galatians. It talked about the fruit of the Spirit, but the whole context was love and crucifying the flesh.

     Take another look at the perspective from which the “sanctification” post; it was all about “me.” Love is exactly the opposite of that; “God and others.”

     My thought is that we should not try to become “better” and “sanctified.” All the law and the prophets hang on love. We are to love; take the focus off “me” and put it on God and the wellbeing of others. That is the “bond of perfectness.”

     I think both of your definitions contain some truth. But I believe the key love. I believe that will resolve the sanctification problem and bring fruit of the Spirit. I believe 2 Pet. 1:5-11 confirms this.

135. Rethinking Sanctification | Careful Thought on 16 Sep 2009 at 12:28 am #

     [...] Michael Patton at Parchment and Pen had a great post a few days back on sanctification.  Sanctification is, well…  I’m [...]

136. mem on 16 Sep 2009 at 2:52 pm #

     Michael, thanks for that insight. We have circulated this to some friends as it touches the heart of every Christian….at least it seems to us. I have learned the same as well, that sanctification occurs through revelation which occurs through closeness to God, which occurs through our need to seek God, which will only come through brokenness. Isn’t it amazing….and very God….that this process transcends human accomplishment and status in this life?

137. MarcD. on 16 Sep 2009 at 8:33 pm #

     “depressed”? According to Jonathan Edward’s diary, he refered to it as “decaying”. My wife and I use this as a code word in the house. “Honey, I’m decaying.”

138. Blaine Moore on 21 Sep 2009 at 2:48 pm #

     “New life stages present you with new ways to show off your fallen nature.” How incredibly true. In so many ways I find myself in the same situation you describe – and you described it so well. Thank you. SDG

139. Jay Saldana on 21 Sep 2009 at 9:32 pm #

     Dear Michael,

     I have not the depth of knowledge that the people who post here have. My experience is from a “different”. I was raised a Roman Catholic and studied RC dogma – which in my opinion is only related to theology as a process result not as a methodology at understanding or at least attempting to understand God works and attributes. Now I am a full fledged “Protest-ant” transformed at least in my experience 11 years ago living the “always reforming” and seeking a discipline to express my relationship with the our Lord and Savior.

     I am not going into a long polemic about the RC church and what I think is wrong or why. What I wanted to say is that they offer something that is, I think, not “really”available to our community that may be of assistance in what you are going through. It is called “The lives of the Saints.” This is not an argument for intercession in the sense that a RC might mean it. You see, in that institution more than in ours the lives of the “heroically saintly” are more closely examined and the information published more than in our tradition. They feel that those are models for us to find value. I think they are right. I think that a trained researcher like yourself will find value and an answer. If you study the life of Francis of Assisi, John of God, or, Teilhard De Chardin (who I think you would really like) or Theresa of Avila (the last three my personal favorites). Each of these saints expressed the ‘dark night” that you speak of. Each suffered the uncertainty, the pain, the doubt and each found an answer. Like John Wesley or Martin Luther in our tradition, they each went through the spiritual “pounding” and the result is that the tenderness of the searcher grows more acute as they move passed the mundane. We call it sanctification and for the most part with a few exceptions have left it to the individual and unexamined. I realize that is a broad statement and may be ignorant on my part, but I am commenting on what I seem to see We seem to parse Paul but not the “sacrament” of sanctification.

     So we ask each other as we should, “what is happening to me?” Are we not brothers and sisters to each other? We respond. But the answers are missing the intimacy that leads to satisfaction. I say you are not alone and it has happened many times before and the lives of the saints will allow you to move past this or at the very least give you insight so you can move to the next thing God has in mind for you and maybe if grace allows, some respite from your pain. In my own search, I have found value doing such.

     I hope you will forgive me my delay in responding but I prayed for days about this. That I was giving you something that would be of value. I am very ignorant and could have very simply proved it here. You are in my prayers.

     With much affection,

     jay saldana

140. Linda on 21 Sep 2009 at 11:26 pm #

     Thank you for you candor and insight! I have the same thoughts daily. I wonder why I am not getting “gooder” I have been a Christian 20 years and I still have these thoughts. Conclusion: maybe I am not a Christian. Oh and church excuses. I love my church. I love attending. I also love sleeping late, enoying French toast and coffee and reading the newspaper which is spread all over the table. Conclusion: I must not be as spritual as so and so. Or I don’t love the Lord enough if I am wanting French toast instead of Him. I am devoted to prayer in the mornings but I wonder why I don’t “hear the Lord speaking to me” like the believers who speak at Women of Faith conferences. Conclusion: I must not be a Christian or at least not a deep one.

     However, I go back to the basics. Christ died for my sins. I believe on HIm for eternal life. I belive Scripture is the inspired Word of God. And though I may not be “santified” in my terms, I must be in His.

141. Dan W. Boles on 16 Oct 2009 at 9:22 am #

     Judging by your new found understanding of and definition for sanctification, I’d say you have been sanctified all along.

142. Joe on 16 Oct 2009 at 10:45 am #

     Many people see any ” problem with sanctification,” as being 1) their simple inability to obey good laws.

     My problem with sanctification? I’m 2) not convinced that all the rules are really, actually, themselves, entirely good. Preachers load us up with Scruples. Petty “moral” rules, that might not really be moral. Scruples that may – or may not – reflect important virtues; might not really reflect what the Bible itself really meant to call for. LIke obeying the letter of the law. Like actually, literally sacrificing a goat on passover? Or praying continuously?

     And in fact I think that’s the reason most people have trouble with becoming sanctification; deep down, they are not really convinced that all the various scruples we’ve been ordered to honor, are really, actually, true and good. Or even, really, from God.

     The Catholic CHurch attempts to deal with this, by acknowledging that there is such a thing as over-scrupulosity. Does the Protestant Church have something similar?

143. Mary Darrell on 17 Oct 2009 at 11:26 pm #

     Re: sanctification: what is it.
     In the OT all the pots, pans, flesh hooks, etc. etc. were “sanctified” initially unto the Lord. They were not re-sanctified every day. They were, however, WASHED every day. The only time they were sort of un-sanctified was when they were dragged away to be used in the temples of Babylon. Jesus told Peter that he didn’t need to be washed all over–only his dirty feet. Peter was “sanctified” to Jesus, but his feet were dirty from the dusty roads they travelled–wearing sandals! He only needed his feet to be washed. I think we have spooky ideas about sanctification!

144. Rethinking Sanctification Because I Have to « Not I But Christ on 20 Oct 2009 at 12:54 pm #

     [...] Rethinking Sanctification Because I Have to This is a recent posting by Reclaiming The Mind’s Michael Patton at http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/09/rethinking-sanctification-because-i-have-to/ [...]

145. Barbara Spannaus on 20 Oct 2009 at 3:35 pm #

     I’m a 61 yr.-old married (not easy) mom of 4 who accepted Christ when I was 30 or so. Lately I have been having similar questions about who I am in Christ. Especially when my faith is put to test- as in everyday life, forgiveness, love patience, etc..
     Satan is really working hard to pull as many of us away from the Father and His perfect, unconditional love and forgiveness for His children (us) Satan determined, completely evil but he is not omniscient. But our Father in heaven is and He also is completely aware of our past, current and future imperfections. Because He loves us, God gave us His Son as a standard to work toward (not as in works for salvation : ) but He makes it clear that because we are not perfect like Jesus that we will struggle as we attempt to be more like Him. Because this in this quest is our only hope for peace and joy on this earth. And so we pray always for faith, jHis protection and His guideance to fill us with His love beyond anything we can ask or imagine.
     I didn’t read the comments to your post so maybe someone else suggested that C.S. Lewis might be where we might find some clarity for our human conundrum. I have learned that the battle between good and evil doesn’t end until we die and that no one said it was going to be easy. That’s not very much for 61 years- but I know that God is with me and that’s all I need for now.
     Matthew tells us how to recognize a true believer and how much God knows us for who we are right now. Stay in the Word and try not to intellectualize too much because it just makes the truth more remote.
     Love, Barbara

146. Guy on 10 Jan 2010 at 9:37 am #

     Thank you so much for this honest discussion of your struggles!! It’s very refreshing. I’ve been Googling madly (in possibly 3 senses senses of the word !) for for helpful stuff on all this! I’ve been blessed by your article and many of the comments…I envy those who can sit with you and discuss/pray re: it all. So…..thanks!!

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