What are the essentials to Christianity? Four Criteria
I have updated this post as a part of my ongoing presentation on issues regarding the life of Evangelicalism, especially with regard to its doctrine. If you are familiar with my thoughts on the issue, you will notice that I have one added criteria (#2).
“In Essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.” These are the words of obscure reformer Rupertus Meldenius (often wrongly attributed to others). They form somewhat of an Evangelical credo. Evangelicals have traditionally believed that there are certain doctrines that form the core of the Christian faith. They are called “cardinal doctrines.” They are what we might call the sine qua non—the “without which, not”—of the Christian faith. In other words, there are certain doctrines that when denied, by definition, evidence a person does not have the basic core beliefs that must be present to some degree in the truly regenerate.
Included in this credo is the belief that there are certain doctrines that are “non-essential” or ”non-cardinal.” These are those that, while important to varying degrees, are not damnable in the proper sense. About these doctrines there can be legitimate disagreement within Christianity. We are to have liberty with regard to such doctrines. This means that we are not to properly or formally divide over them. We are to have grace.
This all sounds really nice. I have heard this touted from the Evangelical mountain-tops for quite some time. The difficulty always comes when we begin to discuss one key question: What are the essentials? Who decides? The Pope? Your local church pastor? The SBC? My private interpretation of the Scripture? Alas, with such a question, the divisions start all over.
In essentials, unity. Sounds nice, but impractical. Right?
I don’t think we have to be so pessimistic about this. I actually think that there are certain criteria that most thoughtful people can agree constitutes the foundation of our faith—the essentials. I have them narrowed to four in no certain order. It is important to note that I am persuaded that all four must be present for a doctrine to be considered essential.
1. Historicity: Does the doctrine have universal historical representation?
This first criteria is one of historical agreement. This is a form of “consensual faith” (consensus fidelium). This criteria of universal consensus follows the canon of Saint Vincent of Lérins (died c. 445): quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus, “that which was believed everywhere, always, by everyone.” In other words, an essential cannot be something new like the doctrine of the Rapture. Neither can it be something that has lacked historic unity by Christians across time like the perpetual virginity of Mary. As well, it cannot have limited geographic representation, like certain Eastern liturgy. The question here is, Have all Christians of all time everywhere believed it?
2. Explicitly Historical: Does the history of the church confess their centrality?
This is like the first but differs in an important way. Here we are saying that if the history of the church has not confessed this as a central issue, then it is not. For example, the history of the church may confess that the Christian worldview includes a firm confession of a belief in the historicity of the Flood narrative, but it has never been a part of the central teachings to the degree that a denial of such is a damnable offense. When combined with the first criteria, the exception cannot define the rule. The point here is that we take seriously God’s work in the history of the Church through the Holy Spirit. If the church has universally believed that a certain doctrine is both true and central to the Christian faith, that doctrine deserves serious consideration as being among the essentials.
3. Biblical Clarity (Perspicuity): Is the doctrine represented clearly in Scripture?
One of the principles that the Reformers sought to communicate is that of the perspicuity (clarity) of Scripture. The Reformers did not believe that all of the Scripture was clear (a misunderstanding of the doctrine of perspicuity), but that all that is essential for salvation is clear. In short, if something in Scripture is obscure, then it is not essential. Augustine even held to such a principle stating that one must not build doctrines on obscure passages (On Christian Doctrine). For example, one should not build essential doctrine on what the “keys to the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 16:19) are or what it means to be “baptized for the dead” (1 Cor. 15:29). Unfortunately, both the Catholics and the Mormons have done just that. If a passage is obscure, no essential doctrine can be derived from it.
4. Explicitly Biblical: Does any passage of Scripture explicitly teach that a certain doctrine is essential?
The Scriptures speak about a great many things, but they are often explicit regarding that which is of essential importance. For example, Paul says to the Corinthians, “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Cor. 15:3-4; emphasis mine). The “of first importance” tells us that Christ’s death and resurrection “for our sins,” from Paul’s perspective, are essential components of Christianity. Without such, according to Paul, there is no Christianity (1 Cor. 15:12ff). As well, the Gospel of John speaks about the importance of faith. “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son” (John 3:18).
Again, these four criteria, I propose, must all be present. I think I am committed to this. If one or more is lacking concerning a particular doctrine, I believe that it is not possible for one to legitimately argue for its core necessity. As well, all four feed off each other and are somewhat self-regulating. In other words, if someone doubts whether something is clear in Scripture, all he or she has to do is look to history. If something is not clear in the Scripture, we will not find that it passes the test of historicity. This is why it is of vital importance that Christians not only be good exegetes, but also good historians.
With this in mind, I propose that this test be the first test applied to those who wish follow me in my proposals for Evangelical Apostolic Succession.
The next step would be to define that which is uniquely “Evangelical” to add to these core doctrines. In other words, this would define what are the cardinal issues for Christianity that would be included in any Evangelical credo. The next would be to find out what distinctives would need to be added to this to make an Evangelical creed. I actually believe that this step is the more difficult.
If you enjoyed this post, make sure you subscribe to my RSS feed!- More on Evangelical Apostolic Succession
- Constructing a Credo: Will Dominoes Do the Trick?
- Essentials and Non-Essentials: How to Choose Your Battles Carefully
- Are You Orthodox or Heretic?
- A Test of Essentials and Non-Essentials
Print This Post

bethyada on 10 Aug 2009 at 6:14 am #
The problem with distinguishing items 1 and 2 is that 1 represents what was disputed, thus discussed. If something was not disputed then it may be perceived as non-essential when in fact it is essential.
Take for example God is eternal, or God is creator, or God is to be worshipped. These are central, but have they been confessed as central? They may not fit item 2 yet perhaps they should be included in the core.
I would say that Jesus rose literally from the dead is core.
But as I have mentioned to you before, I think your focus is slightly off the mark as you are thinking in terms of definition, rather than in terms of trajectory. A trajectoral approach would see some people with core beliefs out of the kingdom and some that lack them in the kingdom. It is the direction one’s belief is going, ie, toward or away from Jesus.
Mason on 10 Aug 2009 at 6:38 am #
I like these criteria, but, how does Trinity fit here?
I would say Trinity is a very essential doctrine, however it seems that only the first three criteria can be rightly applied.
The idea that God is one is no doubt made essential in the OT, but even though I think it is quite clear in the NT there doesn’t seem to really be an explicit “God is triune, it’s important to believe that’ sort of passage.
Perhaps it’s just a matter of combining things that are said to be important?
RDM on 10 Aug 2009 at 8:06 am #
How do you define the Church?
I define the Church (big C) as the world wide body of believers. The church (little c) is the human institution. Their memberships overlap but are not identical.
Today, we have denominational office holders such as Katharine Jefferts Schori, Bishop of the Episcopal Church, denying foundational doctrine.
How does this fit into your criteria?
j on 10 Aug 2009 at 9:25 am #
bethyada-
in the “trajectoral approach,” where is Jesus? how do you assess the heading toward or away from him?
some good points are being raised though in 1 and 2. Perhaps this is an any three of the four criteria system?
Jason C on 10 Aug 2009 at 3:49 pm #
I’d define the Church as the body of believers worldwide and throughout history who have adhered to the central tenets of Christianity.
The incarnation, life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth would be one of those central tenets. I suspect that the virgin birth, ie the miraculous conception of Jesus would be a part of it. Jesus’ identity is entwined with his relationship with God the Father, being without that would weaken his claims.
steve martin on 10 Aug 2009 at 7:02 pm #
I like Luther’s definition:
“Where the gospel is proclaimed in it’s purity, and where the Sacaraments are administerd in accordance with that gospel, there is the church.”
C Michael Patton on 10 Aug 2009 at 7:09 pm #
Yes, but then the question becomes, what are the essentials to the Gospel? That is what this post is about.
steve martin on 10 Aug 2009 at 7:14 pm #
The gospel is the forgiveness of sins for Jesus’ sake. That IS the gospel.
And that happens in the hearing of the Word and in the receiving of the Sacraments.
C Michael Patton on 10 Aug 2009 at 7:18 pm #
Who do you say that Jesus is? Arius could have said the same thing you just said, yet he denied the eternality of Christ.
steve martin on 10 Aug 2009 at 7:21 pm #
Jesus is the One who was raised from the dead by the Father.
Arius was a bonehead.
Christ was fully man and fully God.
rayner markley on 10 Aug 2009 at 8:42 pm #
Michael: ‘This is why it is of vital importance that Christians not only be good exegetes, but also good historians.’
Really? How good as historians should they be? Are you saying that one cannot discern the essentials from scripture alone? First century folks didn’t have any church history to consult. Please clarify.
[By the way, 'criterion' is singular, 'criteria' is only plural; English follows Greek usage.]
C Michael Patton on 10 Aug 2009 at 9:21 pm #
Ryan,
History is used to test our faith. It is secondary to the Scripture, but it is nontheless valid. If we were to discount the history of our faith, we would be discounting the Holy Spirit’s witness for 2000 years. This is the problem of the cults. They believe that they can find the faith outside of the body of Christ, living and dead. The great Protestant Reformers sought to ground their faith in the Scriptures and history.
Matt Hansen on 10 Aug 2009 at 9:43 pm #
I appreciate this article, though I would define the criteria a little differently. I’ve recently written similar “salvation requirements” for a discipleship class I’m leading, so I’d appreciate your feedback. I concluded the req’ts would have the following characteristics:
1. Is salvation automatically applied to everyone? If not, then the salvation req’ts are UNIQUELY SPECIFIC (definable – not abstract).
2. Have these req’ts changed since the time of Christ? If not, then they are HISTORICALLY TIMELESS (applied the same today as in the early church).
3. Are these req’ts different for different people? If not, then they are CULTURALLY BOUNDLESS (applied the same to all people at any location).
4. Are these req’ts different based on each person’s physical capability? If not, then they are HUMANLY ACCESSIBLE (applied the same way to all people regardless of any physical handicap that doesn’t impede their ability to understand the gospel).
With these criteria, the salvation req’ts should equally apply to a 21st century healthy American, a 12th century deaf & mute African, or even the penitent thief on the cross.
As controversial as it may seem, I believe this would exclude long-held evangelical beliefs like the infallibility and inerrancy of scripture or the doctrine of the trinity. These beliefs would at least fail the 2nd characteristic since they were not a part of the gospel message preached throughout Acts.
Therefore, how can we hold someone today to a different standard of “salvation requirements” than what was simplistically expressed by the thief on the cross who…
1) recognized his own sinfulness (his need for salvation),
2) recognized Jesus’ sinlessness (Christ’s ability to save us),
3) called Jesus “Lord” & acknowledged His kingdom (Christ’s deity),
4) requested Jesus for salvation (appealing to Christ’s willingness to save us)
5) acted on faith alone (he performed no works, but merely made a confession to Christ)
bethyada on 11 Aug 2009 at 6:22 am #
j bethyada-in the “trajectoral approach,” where is Jesus? how do you assess the heading toward or away from him?
It would be better to ask who is Jesus. And we don’t assess others, Jesus assesses us.
These are questions followers of Jesus say yes to:
Do you love Jesus? Are you wanting to be like him? Are you wanting to and trying to obey him?
rayner markley on 11 Aug 2009 at 8:36 am #
Michael,
I appreciate your concern about cults and it’s a genuine problem, but I don’t think you’ve answered the question. You seem to say that someone who has scripture but does not have history cannot know what doctrines are essential. But church history and doctrinal history have taken many paths in 2000 years, so the question of essential doctrines is in part relevant to specific traditions. If one needs history to ‘test the faith,’ then it means that while scripture is necessary it isn’t sufficient. Sola scriptura is weakened. And this is in the context of what you maintain (I believe) that correct doctrine is a necessary foundation for belief unto salvation.
David Rudel on 11 Aug 2009 at 10:46 am #
I appreciate the idea within these criteria, but I think they do not account for humanity’s failings well enough. I think there are plenty of beliefs that could be called “essentials” that were believed at one point and then fell out of belief as they became politically or theologically unattractive.
Take, for example, the core belief that “Jesus was, first and foremost, the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham to the descendants of Abraham.”
That belief was extremely important to the early church, was part of the earlier kerygma, and is described a staggering number of times throughout the New Testament [when writing to both Jewsh and Gentile believers]. However, that description of Jesus fell out of its emphasis during an anti-Jewish backlash and never really regained its position. Now the church tends to preach that Jesus is the fulfillment of the curse on the serpent in Genesis 3:15 [convenient, theologically, for those who believe "salvation" is about the Final Judgment...as it provides a way for those before Abraham to have belief in a gospel of sorts.]
But no Gospel writer even mentions this curse anywhere with regard to Jesus. In all the evangelism shown in Acts, nothing like this can be found at all. It is politically and theologically convenient to present Jesus in this way, but it is alien to the message of the Bible.
Since “Core beliefs” should logically be seen in all integrated presentations of the gospel, I would say that anything at the core of Christianity should be “Clearly described in both the Synoptic gospels and John and clearly seen in the evangelism of Acts.” The gospel accounts were meant to share Christianity and defend its core beliefs. Acts is _the_ place to look for a description of what Peter, Paul, etc. thought made a Christian a Christian…there are about 20 accounts of teachings given there [I've categorized them here: http://www.authentic-christianity.net/2008/09/what-is-christian.html
Taking that as the criteria, I would say the core of Christianity is very, very light:
i) Jesus is proof that the God of the Israel is the living God who through Jesus fulfills the promises made to Abraham and David.
ii) Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, as proven by His resurrection.
iii) God has exalted Jesus to Lord over heaven and earth.
iv) Jesus will return to claim His Kingdom and raise the dead with transformed bodies [completing the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham which has already been partially shown in Christ's exaltation and our receipt of the Spirit.]
v) Jesus will Judge the living and the dead on the last day, so all should repent of unrighteousness and follow Jesus’ commands.
It is notable that the abstract Christology and atonement doctrines that are considered so important today are not to be found in the early church. [100 AD - 250 AD]
C Michael Patton on 11 Aug 2009 at 11:02 am #
David,
“I think there are plenty of beliefs that could be called “essentials” that were believed at one point and then fell out of belief as they became politically or theologically unattractive.”
Then they would not have passed #1.
Dave Z on 11 Aug 2009 at 12:48 pm #
To Matt,
I like your four points and will use them, if that’s OK. As I see it, what you’re saying is that the standards of salvation cannot change, regardless of time or specific situations. I certainly agree. that’s why I lean on the early creeds, thinking that the essentials would have been settled pretty early.
I use a different reference than the thief on the cross I use the tax collector in Luke 18. Three points:
1) He recognized God
2) He recognized his own sinfulness
3) He asked for mercy
And he went home justified. And this, I believe, is the essence of salvation, equally applicable even for Old Testament folks. (I don’t buy the “looking ahead to Christ” idea. It seems forced) However, all come to God through Christ. Forgiveness is found only at the cross, even for those who lived prior to it. There is no other name by which we can be saved.
But I think CMP’s point is not salvation, but that orthodoxy evolves. As I understand it, he’s trying to establish an evangelical orthodoxy. That would allow for David’s point – beliefs that once seemed essential have fallen by the wayside as orthodoxy shifted in response to situations the church has faced through the centuries.
Michael on 11 Aug 2009 at 5:14 pm #
CMP,
I’d like to ask one point for clarification. Maybe I missed it, but when you use the word “Essential” do you mean “essential for salvation” or “essential for Orthodoxy”, because these two would likely result in very different lists. For instance I would consider the Penal Substitution to be part of Orthodoxy, or at the very least Evangelical Orthodoxy. Despite this I wouldn’t consider it necessary for salvation given that the entire Church prior to Anselm believed something quite different about the nature of the atonement. I’m not about to go with those who would say that no Christian’s existed prior to Anselm, or more likely Calvin since he fully articulated it.
Then again this leads me to wonder if even Penal Substitution would meet the first criteria of your list since it has not been universally accepted and isn’t even today. The Eastern Orthodox still hold to something resembling the Ransom or Christus Victor view, and in addition there is the Moral Government, and Exemplary views floating around. Ultimately if we follow your criteria won’t we likely end up with something resembling Paleo-Orthodoxy to define the essentials? (not that this is a bad thing)
C Michael Patton on 11 Aug 2009 at 5:42 pm #
This list is better stated as that which is cardinal to Christianity. It has to with those central elements of the faith that make or break what it means to be Christian.
Orthodoxy is a little too broad and salvation is a little too narrow. In essence, it is an attempt to discover the “regula fide” or the “canon varitas.”
That probably did not clear it up. I need to think of a better way to communicate this particular nuace.
David Rudel on 11 Aug 2009 at 7:02 pm #
Michael,
My point is that there are items that _should_ be considered essential but do not pass your number 1 because of the course of the church’s theology.
Here are some examples of items that were highly relevant in the early church and are given primary importance in the NT but have fallen out of centrality [or have had their verity blurred] through the theological and political changes of the church. I would say all of these are essential, but none would pass both criteria 1 and 2:
i) Seeing Christ as primarily the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham and David [with and understanding of what those promises meant.]
ii) The actual Messiaship of Christ [the church has moved away from seeing Jesus as the Christ and more toward Jesus as God or Jesus as atoning sacrifice.]
iii) Jesus’ Resurrection as proof of the bodily resurrection of all.
iv) Jesus as judge of living and dead [various atonement theologies have blurred this...because most modern atonement theologies rely on the Father being the Judge, whereas the NT is quite adamant that Christ has that post and not the Father.]
v) The resurrection of Christ as proof that the God of the Old Testament, the God of Jacob, is the [one and only] Living God.
vi) Christ’s judgment is based on our thoughts, deeds, and words. [This was obviously a major component of early Christianity, but has either been rejected, reinterpreted, or rationalized by most Christians so as not to cause friction with "salvation by faith alone."]
steve martin on 11 Aug 2009 at 7:06 pm #
“vi) Christ’s judgment is based on our thoughts, deeds, and words.”
Hardly.
That sounds like a pretty wimpy god to me.
He calls the shots, when it comes to our salvation.
Revisit Jesus’ conversation with Niccodemus for well needed remediation.
cheryl u on 11 Aug 2009 at 7:18 pm #
But Steve, one does have to take into consideration such Scriptures as the parable of the sheep and the goats and the reason Jesus gave for where each group ended up. I agree with David that such Scriptures have been neglected and that they haven’t received the attention they need. It seems to me that a complete theology has to deal with Scriputures such as those and put them in their proper place. Yes, or course we must be born again as Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus makes very clear. That is the stariting point of our life with God. But that being born again must work itself out in practical life, and if it doesn’t, there is a major problem!! Remember James and his very blunt statement that, “faith without works is dead”?
EricW on 11 Aug 2009 at 7:56 pm #
But Steve, one does have to take into consideration such Scriptures as the parable of the sheep and the goats and the reason Jesus gave for where each group ended up.
I think an argument can be made that, Matthew being a Jewish gospel and the word for “nations” also meaning “gentiles”, the parable of the sheep and the goats has its explanation in Joel 3 (Joel 4 in the Hebrew, I believe). I.e., it’s where/when God judges the non-believing nations for how they treated his people (which in this parable could mean the Jewish people or the Christians – after all, Jesus calls the persecuted ones “My brethren”). Thus, it’s possible that this parable has been misinterpreted as a day of judgment that Christians will have to face.
I’m not rejecting the importance of our works, just questioning the idea that the parable/judgment of the sheep and the goats is something Christians are to fear – i.e., whether they will be found to be a sheep or a goat when Jesus comes to reign.
steve martin on 11 Aug 2009 at 7:56 pm #
We are not saved by anything we do, say, feel or think.
We are saved solely on the basis of God calling us and choosing us.
They asked Him, “What is it to do the work of the Father?”
And He said, “believe in the One who the Father has sent”.
WE DO…not in order to be saved, but as a result of being saved. In that group of gaots were many who said Lord, Lord, we did this and that in your name.
“We are saved by grace through faith (St. Paul tells us in Ephesians 2) not of works lest anyone should boast.”
And the faith that we are saved through is a gift of God. St. Paul tells us that also.
Doing works is great and we ought do them, but they account for nothing towards our salvation…otherwise that cross would have been in vain and He could have jsut lined us up and compared us to each other.
While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
That is what I am hanging my hat on.
Thanks!
cheryl u on 11 Aug 2009 at 8:11 pm #
Not arguing your points! All I am saying is that if we are truly saved, the good works will follow. Remember too that Jesus said in Mt. 12:36-37 that our words would justify or condemn us in the day of judgment. His words have to have some practical meaning for today, don’t you think? There are other places too that remind us of the necessity of “putting on” that new nature that we received when we were born again. (Ephesians and Colossians).
Have to leave for awhile…
steve martin on 11 Aug 2009 at 8:17 pm #
The trouble comes when we try and check off those good works. Almost always we are checking them off for others.
Someone may be in church twice on Sunday, be on the church council, work at the homeless shelter and visit the sick and dying in nursing homes every night of the week (sounds pretty impressive doesn’t it?)
Lots of good works. But we cannot know their heart. They may be doing all of this to impress me or you, or themselves, or God, and there motives are completely shot to hell.
Then, you may have a drug addict, laying in the gutter, hasn’t been to church in years, and he may totally be one of God’s adopted children.
This is why Jesus told us not to judge. The wheat and the tares grow together and we cannot tell them apart no matter how much you think you can.
steve martin on 11 Aug 2009 at 8:18 pm #
‘their’…Oops.
j on 12 Aug 2009 at 4:48 am #
@bethyada – on the trajectoral approach
These are good questions to ask ourselves and good points
It would be better to ask who is Jesus. And we don’t assess others, Jesus assesses us.
These are questions followers of Jesus say yes to:
Do you love Jesus? Are you wanting to be like him? Are you wanting to and trying to obey him?
But if I read these right, you’re basically questioning CMP’s premise that a doctrinal basis has any place in defining the church and its essential beliefs, and that we should be concerned with assessing the standing of anyone who claims to be a believer.
As such, the trajectoral approach seems either irrelevant to CMP’s question, or it seems to declare CMP’s question irrelevant.
granted, you already said you think CMP is slightly off the mark, but you did also mention core beliefs. These questions seem to address attitude.
David Rudel on 12 Aug 2009 at 10:27 pm #
Steve,
The vast majority of the works where the actual Judgment (rather than the use of the term “salvation” or “saved”) is described do so in terms of exactly what I said… and you say I need remediation???
“By your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
“They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend them, on the day God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel, through Christ Jesus.”
“For we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be paid back according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or evil.”
“A day is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out — the ones how have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation.”
“So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.”
I could list a dozen more easily…in fact I could nearly list a dozen from Matthew’s gospel alone spoken directly from Jesus, who is the One doing the judging… If Jesus says the basis is going to be our words, thoughts, and deeds, why are you so quick to deny it?
EricW
Claiming that the sheep and the goats is not a reference to the final Judgment of everyone by Christ is pretty strained:
i) We are told that Jesus is the only dictating the sentence and verdict [not God, who is described as the one meting wrath out upon the nations prior to the Final Judgment]
ii) The finale 25:46 makes it clear this is the final Judgment.
iii) The discussion in 25:34-40 is hardly a description of God’s legitimizing punishment on the nations that mistreated Israel.
Matt Hansen on 12 Aug 2009 at 11:15 pm #
To Dave Z (and anyone else bored enough to eavesdrop)
Interesting point about the Tax Collector example. I agree it’s a good one, but my only hesitation in that example is that 1) Jesus told the story which could be interpreted as a parable or hypothetical example (it may have been based on a real example, but that’s not explicit in his description), and 2) it occurred before his death – the act of atonement.
For these reasons, it would be difficult to argue against someone who challenges the validity of that example. To me, I favor the penitent thief since 1) it’s clearly a real event (not to be confused as a parable), and 2) the thief’s death and eternal “salvation” occurred after Jesus’ death (act of atoning for the thief’s sins).
I would normally agree with you about CMP’s criteria arguing for evangelical orthodoxy, but his post #20 shows that wasn’t his intent. To me, if “orthodoxy” means “right belief”, then it seems to imply what’s essential – and what’s more essential to Christianity than salvation? Can a Christian be unorthodox? Or can a non-Christian be orthodox? The term “Orthodox” seems a bit vague and impotent to me; it implies that anything apart from it is “wrong belief” as if someone is not a Christian because they aren’t “orthodox”. But if we define it apart from salvation, then it opens the door wide for abuse and misinterpretation.
It seems to me that when we say some belief is “orthodox”, we’re not implying it’s “right belief”, but that it’s really “accepted belief”; but to say a belief is “unorthodox” also implies that it’s non-Christian, or someone believing it is not adhering to a salvation essential. That just seems wrong to me. Perhaps a better word is to call it PARADOX as defined as “A statement or proposition which on the face of it seems self-contradictory, absurd, or at variance with common sense; though, on investigation or when explained, it may prove to be well-founded.” For example, if a Christian believes all the essentials for salvation but doesn’t believe the Bible is absolute truth, that may not conform to the “accepted belief” of the church; however, it’s a PARADOX because despite it’s seeming contradiction and challenge to what’s an accepted belief, it could be easily argued to be true because belief in the Bible is not demonstrated biblically as an essential for salvation.
Is there another term other than “orthodox” that we can use that means “accepted belief” so as not to alienate a true Christian who believes all the essentials, but may not conform to some of the accepted non-essentials?
steve martin on 12 Aug 2009 at 11:38 pm #
David Rudel,
Do you really want to stand before the Living God and rely on what you have done and said, or what you have not done and said, towards your salvation?
Honestly, do you think that highly of yourself?
steve martin on 13 Aug 2009 at 12:23 am #
This won’t take but a few minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Mb_7gBSv0
David Rudel on 13 Aug 2009 at 1:13 am #
Steve,
What kind of an answer is that? Theology is not based on what I want or you want. It is based on what the Bible says [well...at least it should be.] Christ, Paul, Peter, the writer of Hebrews, James and John all describe the Judgment directly in the same way. My preferences have no veto over them.
And you are using that word, “salvation,” again in a way different from how the writers of the New Testament conceived of the term.
The problem is that people think saying “The Judgment is based on thoughts, words, and deeds” is the same as saying one can “deserve” or “have a right to” membership in New Jerusalem based on them. This is a straw man.
If my (non-existent) kid brings home a good report card, and I decide to reward him by taking him to Yankee Stadium, it doesn’t mean he “earned” it..it doesn’t mean that he “deserved” it based on his grades. I could have not taken him, and it wouldn’t mean I was doing anything wrong. He had no “right” to the trip. It was something I choose [that happened to be based on his performance by my own choice of adjudging.]
When the people of Nineveh received mercy, it was certainly not because God was required to give it to them. But it was also quite clearly due to their repentance. (Jonah 3:10) It didn’t violate God’s sense of justice to relent of punishment based only on repentance, but it also did not mean they “earned” their deliverance, for God was under no requirement to give it.
bethyada on 13 Aug 2009 at 3:30 am #
j: But if I read these right, you’re basically questioning CMP’s premise that a doctrinal basis has any place in defining the church and its essential beliefs, and that we should be concerned with assessing the standing of anyone who claims to be a believer.
Yes, though you bring up a good point. If Michael is talking about the basics for the church (or a church) then I agree there is a list of minimal or core doctrine. But I don’t apply that to individuals.
As such, the trajectoral approach seems either irrelevant to CMP’s question, or it seems to declare CMP’s question irrelevant.
More the latter. I still think one can grade doctrine from central to peripheral, though even that is not so simple. For example I see creationism as foundational but not necessarily central. I see the virgin birth as more central but less foundational. Even the resurrection which is the most central is somewhat dependant on other less central but more foundational beliefs.
granted, you already said you think CMP is slightly off the mark, but you did also mention core beliefs. These questions seem to address attitude.
I think it would be hard to be a Christian and deny a literal resurrection, thus I guess it is core for the individual. But because I view it as a trajectory, it matters more which direction one is heading in. The further one starts from Christ the less he had right belief, but as he follows Jesus his wrong beliefs will be replaced by correct ones. Someone else may have had better teaching, but is not following so is more likely to abandon orthodoxy in favour of heterodoxy.
Thus a follower may have less correct beliefs than a non-follower depending on where both start.
And our interaction with fellow believers may mirror this. We are glad when someone adjusts his beliefs to align with God, even if he still believes errors; we are sad when Christians abandon truth, even if they retain some correct ideas.
George Geno on 13 Aug 2009 at 9:12 am #
Like David Rudell’s post on 8/11, once you put number 1 as number 1 you will eliminate everything and nothing gets through the filter. For example, if I make a statement like “baptism is not required for my salvation” some might then say, “you are not a Christian!” (The statement could be any other basis on which belief triggers debate or separation.) But that very complaint reveals that there is something higher in priority in the definition of the “minimum” as agreement is not the basis for the complaint.
Historicity is a dangerous criteria except as a weak flashlight in a dark closet that you opened because the Word on the outside said ‘coats’. To my mind, you have to start with your number 4 and carefully use 3, 2, and 1 as imperfect means of pointing to the application of 1.
David Rudel on 13 Aug 2009 at 9:19 pm #
Someone brought up the question earlier of “what is it required someone believe to receive salvation.” I don’t think that inventory or list is at all related to “What are the fundamentals of Christianity.”
I think we live in world where there is a great deal of desire to “defend the faith,” so it is natural to think about things in terms of “what does it mean to be a ‘real’ Christian.” And it is natural, obviously, for that to get linked to “what do you have to believe to be saved.”
But another way to see it is “What is critical to Christianity” in the sense of “What, if it were shown to be untrue, would utterly invalidate the Christian faith?”
When the question is asked that way, I think we come down to the items that get repeated over and over again in Acts:
i) Jesus is the Christ of the Living God revealed in the Old Testament, and His works validate Jacob’s God.
ii) Jesus was raised from the dead.
iii) Jesus has been given all authority over heaven and earth, and that extends at least to the point of His judging the living and the dead.
I think when we look at critical passages [The end of Matthew, Peter's long sermons in early Acts, what we gather Paul's message is from later discussions in Acts, Paul's short creed in Romans 10:9 and the discussion in 1st Corinthians 5:12-28.] The above is the picture we get. Note how the end of Matthew links those two parts of number iii
“All authority over heaven and earth has been given to me THEREFORE go make disciples of all nations, teaching them do all things I have commanded you…”
John 5:22-23 is another passage showing this linkage between Christ’s Judgment and Christ’s exaltation.
John on 16 Aug 2009 at 12:33 am #
Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist:
1) JND Kelly said that all the apostolic fathers held to this. Check.
2) Certainly. Check.
3) Those who believe in it have always affirmed so. Check.
4) John 6:53. Check.
Of course, here is where all the arguments start among protestants, and make the 4 criteria to be irrelevant in a sea of argument and counter argument.
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2009 at 12:38 am #
John, I would re-check 1, 3, 4 on this one!
1. Apostolic Fathers alone, even if this was true, does not qualify for always, everywhere, by all.
2. Biblical clarity is hard to sustain: http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/
3. See number 2.
John on 16 Aug 2009 at 3:20 am #
(1) You aren’t going to find a doctrine that better fulfills “everywhere always by all”, unless you include the protestants of relatively recent times. In which case the “everywhere, always by all” becomes revokable. If its revokable, isn’t this criteria a nonsense?
And JND Kelly says it was “unanimous” in the apostolic fathers. Are these criteria revokable or not?
(3 & 4) See (1). If 1500 years of Christians thought so, who am I to argue? Arianism has better support in antiquity than the prospect that the real presence isn’t clear.
e.g. Cyprian: “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life in you. Therefore do we ask that our Bread, which is Christ, be given to us daily”.
Who is going to decide what teachings are clear? Is there any teaching that is not disputed?
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2009 at 8:24 am #
John,
“You aren’t going to find a doctrine that better fulfills “everywhere always by all””
-resurrection of Christ
-second coming
-man is sinful
-Christ is the God-man
-man must have faith
-God created all things ex nihilo
And on and on I could go. The real presence does not pass my tests at all unless you are not understanding what the tests are about.
John on 16 Aug 2009 at 1:59 pm #
-resurrection of Christ – GNOSTICISM, no bodily resurrection
second coming – FULL PRETERISM,
man is sinful – PELAGIUS – man is neutral agent
Christ is God-man – ARIUS
God created ex nihilo – GNOSTICISM
I don’t see any reason to believe your list has better support “everywhere always and by all”. Unless we toss out heretics/schismatics. But then the early church tossed out those not believing the real presence, so you would be ipso facto conceding defeat. But if you want to try and prove your list has better support, I’d be certainly interested to see the proof. Claiming it and showing it are not the same.
Certainly the early church had its own list, and the real presence was on the list.
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2009 at 2:08 pm #
John, you should read Irenaeus on this subject and try to get an understanding of Apostolic Succession. The very reason why the Gnosticism is not part of orthodoxy is because it failed the tests!! Same with Pelagius, Arius, and, in our current day, Full-Preterism.
John on 16 Aug 2009 at 2:28 pm #
Irenaeus defined apostolic succession by:
“reckoning up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and demonstrating the succession of these men to our own times”
That’s why non-belief in the real presence fails the exact same tests that Gnosticism, Pelagius, Arius, full-preterism fails. All the churches who can demonstrate their succession to the apostles believe the real presence.
Your definition of “protestant succession” fails Irenaeus’ definition.
Anyway, is apostolic succession on your list of essential doctrines? If not, how can you appeal to it?
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2009 at 2:33 pm #
Yes, actually it is. This whole post is in the spirit of Apostolic Succession.
However, your rather odd inistance that a belief in the “real presence” is an essential on level with the deity of Christ is rather troublesome and make me think you are either trying to cause trouble or are too bent in your traditions to think honestly on this subject.
However, I will just ask you a question and get some perspective on where you are coming from.
How do you suggest one judge whether a doctrine is essential for Christianity?
EricW on 16 Aug 2009 at 3:08 pm #
That’s why non-belief in the real presence fails the exact same tests that Gnosticism, Pelagius, Arius, full-preterism fails. All the churches who can demonstrate their succession to the apostles believe the real presence.
But that doesn’t prove that either Jesus or the Apostles actually taught “the real presence” in the way the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches have taught about the Eucharist for most of their histories.
We have no evidence in the New Testament itself, including the writings of the Apostles, of the human office of a priest who was to preside over the offering of the Eucharist and the effecting of the change of the elements of the Eucahrist. Thus, though this is something that “all the churches who can demonstrate their succession to the apostles believe” and practice, this fact doesn’t mean that it’s an essential for Christianity.
John on 16 Aug 2009 at 3:41 pm #
“either trying to cause trouble or are too bent in your traditions to think honestly on this subject.”
Well… it seems your accusation is applicable to all those in the historic church, starting with Ignatius’ letter to the Smyrnaeans who talks about the condemnation of those who confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ. And the church had historically seen, in for example Ignatius, a definition of the church as the faithful gathered around the bishop/elder and taking the eucharist as the real body of Christ. Call me a troublemaker if you like, but call the Fathers that too.
Of course, if you want to jettison the fathers… but that wouldn’t do well for your 4 points.
“How do you suggest one judge whether a doctrine is essential for Christianity?”
By its nature, “one” should not be judging. The Church should judge such things, just like Paul consulted the apostles and elders when a dispute arose.
Of course the whole problem of what is “essential” and what is disposable is only an issue when everyone is judging themselves, splintering off into numerous factions, and then left to ponder individually who they can now consider within some pale of orthodoxy.
The whole issue of wanting to agree on the “essentials” instead of the “fullness” is itself a doctrine that fails the 4 points. (1Cor. 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.)
“We have no evidence in the New Testament itself, including the writings of the Apostles, of the human office of a priest who was to preside over the offering of the Eucharist and the effecting of the change of the elements of the Eucahrist.”
Of course, we have no evidence in the New Testament itself of sola scriptura. But leaving that aside….
If we agreed on the fact of the real presence, but merely disagreed on the who/where/when it comes about, that would be one thing. Then we might consider the application of Michael’s 4 point theory. But such is not the case.
EricW on 16 Aug 2009 at 4:07 pm #
Okay, John, I’ll jettison Sola Scriptura (or at least Solo Scriptura) if you’ll jettison the office of the human priest who presides over the Eucharist and presides over the claimed change of the elements (Orthodox) and/or effects the claimed change of the elements (Roman Catholic).
I don’t mind sticking with what the Lord Jesus and the Apostles taught.
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2009 at 6:05 pm #
John,
“By its nature, “one” should not be judging. The Church should judge such things”
Got it. It is a little too difficult for a committed Catholic to enter into this discussion and it not turn into a necessary discussion over authority. You are required to believe that the eucharist is essential. Yet, even then, it is not an essential if you don’t believe it is, even from your tradition (invincible ignorance!).
Therefore, I will bow out and let my original post stand.
Michael on 16 Aug 2009 at 9:12 pm #
You know I can find some (not alot, but some) support in the writings of the Early Church which supports the concept of a semi centralized organization with powers in the Bishops. However, even with this I can find no support for the infallibility of these sources until centuries later or for the amount of authority which has been vested in the Bishop of Rome.
As CMP indicates though the issue of authority in the church might be best handled in another post. I know I would certainly like to see such a post because it seems that too often we end up with the extremes. We have the Catholic extreme where the leadership claims to be infallible (no offense, but given church history I find this claim laughable) and then we have another extreme where every Tom, Dick, and Harry can make a claim to leadership. There has to be some middle ground between these two.
John on 16 Aug 2009 at 11:52 pm #
“Okay, John, I’ll jettison Sola Scriptura (or at least Solo Scriptura) if you’ll jettison the office of the human priest who presides over the Eucharist”
Of course, “priest” is a cognate of “presbyter”.
I’m not sure who you think should preside over it. The cleaners? The social committee? Why would it be such a difficulty for you that the elders preside over it?
” It is a little too difficult for a committed Catholic to enter into this discussion and it not turn into a necessary discussion over authority.”
Err.. methods for defining the essentials of Christianity sounds like a discussion of authority to me. I didn’t turn into an authority discussion, it started out that way.
“You are required to believe that the eucharist is essential.”
As did the early church.
“Yet, even then, it is not an essential if you don’t believe it is, even from your tradition (invincible ignorance!).”
Err… I’m not Catholic. If I was Catholic I can apparently be a Muslim and have invincible ignorance, so that doesn’t help much with your Christian essentials.
EricW on 17 Aug 2009 at 6:07 am #
Of course, “priest” is a cognate of “presbyter”.
non-sequitur.
Just because the word “priest” derives from presbyteros does not mean that the RC and/or EOC office of priest is the same as an “elder,” or is “Apostolic” or “essential to Christianity” because the NT writes about “elders.”
John on 17 Aug 2009 at 8:22 am #
Eric, it was also a non-sequitur to talk about “the office of priest”, as if we are expected to be shocked at some non-biblical office. Being Greek Orthodox we call our elders presbuteroi when in Greece, and priest in the west, since the presbuteroi have always been thus called in the west.
So I can say with certainty that the office is the same, because our presbuteros hops on an aeroplane, and arrives in the west a priest. And when he gets home he is presbuteros again. And the office has not changed since the early church.
EricW on 17 Aug 2009 at 8:44 am #
John:
Yes, it has changed.
And the early church changed from what Jesus and the Apostles established.
I’m not asking or expecting you to be shocked, just to recognize that while “priest” and “presbyteros” might be interchangeable among Greek Orthodox today, the terms were not interchangeable to Jesus and the Apostles. To read current or even centuries-long Greek Orthodox Church or Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Church practice back into the New Testament is anachronistic.
John on 18 Aug 2009 at 5:33 am #
“just to recognize that while “priest” and “presbyteros” might be interchangeable among Greek Orthodox today, the terms were not interchangeable to Jesus and the Apostles.”
Well naturally, since priest is an English word that hadn’t been invented in the time of Jesus and the apostles. But when it was invented it was done so to describe English presbuteroi.
EricW on 18 Aug 2009 at 6:11 am #
John:
I guess my point is that “priest” usually translates hiereus (Greek) and cohên (Hebrew), not presbyteros, and to say that presbyteros = priest suggests a sacrifice-performing/officiating role for the presbyteroi, a role/function that is not found in the NT or established therein by Jesus or the Apostles. It leads to reading into the NT use of the word presbyteros a function/role it only later acquired. When one says that a priest is a presbyteros, and vice-versa, while the former may be true in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, the latter (i.e., equating the presbyteros to a hiereus or cohên, where what is offered is the elements of the Eucharist, which are or become the real body and blood of Jesus via the instrumentality of the “priest” and/or the Holy Spirit as besought by the “priest”) is a post-NT development related to changed/changing views of the Eucharist.
Neal A. on 18 Aug 2009 at 9:27 am #
Very nice, very helpful post. I’m apologize in advance that this post is so long – things like this happen when I start thinking about a topic this interested and needed. I’m still trying to grow in the area of short, pithy comments
.
My original question was how do we determine who qualifies as the Church under criterion 1? Numerous factions have claimed to be Christians, but have been rejected by “insiders.” That is, after all, part of the point of delineating essentials. If we were to consider all who claimed to be Christians as genuine Christians, we’d find very few doctrines that meet the universal acceptance clause.
The discussion has helped clarify this for me (so my thoughts below) but I’d still appreciate feedback.
Protestants are notable here, because, like the heretics, they rejected established “essentials,” some of which might be said to be to meet the universality and historicity clauses (actual presence for example). Yet, we (protestants) tend not to exclude ourselves from the body of Christ.
This is important test case because one vital purpose of a list of “essentials criteria” is to establish who may rightly call themselves Christians. Moreover, the criteria should permit the church to be self healing: that is, to recognize and exclude doctrines which are mistakenly accepted as central or, more problematically, to introduce doctrines that are latent, but not explicitly present in historical teachings.
The key element in the case of protestants is that they have demonstrated (to the satisfaction of many) that certain doctrines which were regarded as essential fail to meet the criteria of perspicuity and scriptural centrality, and hence are not essential. Gnostics, full preterisists, Pelagius, and Arius have been less compelling in arguing that the doctrines they challenged are not clear or central in scripture.
A quick sanity check is in order. Does this make sense? Are we right to exclude the Gnostics, et al. from the community that is included in the universality criteria while we allow protestants (relative newcomers with merely 500-600 years of history) to remain. I think the answer is yes.
Assuming I’ve understood the point correctly, essential doctrines are those which, if denied, place someone or some institution outside the pale of Christianity. John’s argument requires that Protestants be considered essentially not Christian. I think far more people would find that stance problematic (even if we exclude protestants) than would believe that that actual presence is essential. Majority vote is no way to decide doctrine (or any other intellectual question) but it can serve as a nice sanity check. We’ve had 600 years to ponder the issue, and we don’t seem inclined to reject protestants as not Christian, even if many believe that they have fundamental errors in their doctrine.
John on 18 Aug 2009 at 10:20 am #
“I guess my point is that “priest” usually translates hiereus (Greek) and cohên (Hebrew), not presbyteros”
Since the reformation it has. But in older English translations like Wycliffe, it was priest. And of course, English presbuteroi continued to be called priests.
“to say that presbyteros = priest suggests a sacrifice-performing/officiating role for the presbyteroi”
I’ve discussed this with people before, and the fact is most English dictionaries would not make that claim.
“(i.e., equating the presbyteros to a hiereus or cohên)”.
Of course, if a hiereus must offer sacrifices, what of the priesthood of all believers?
The fact is, hiereus comes from pagan Greek usage and does not imply anything about sacrifices.
Cohen also comes from the culture surrounding the Jews, and doesn’t particularly imply anything about sacrifices either. And Ex. 19:6 says that all Jews are Cohen.
“is a post-NT development related to changed/changing views of the Eucharist.”
That is of course, an opinion, not a fact.
EricW on 18 Aug 2009 at 10:40 am #
“[the latter (i.e., equating the presbyteros to a hiereus or cohên, where what is offered is the elements of the Eucharist, which are or become the real body and blood of Jesus via the instrumentality of the “priest” and/or the Holy Spirit as besought by the “priest”)] is a post-NT development related to changed/changing views of the Eucharist.”
That is of course, an opinion, not a fact.
As is the belief that the doctrine/practice of the Eucharist that is held/performed by the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches comes unaltered from Jesus and the Apostles and is not a changed view of it.
John on 18 Aug 2009 at 5:18 pm #
Uh huh. But when the church fathers are “unanimous” as JND Kelly put it, from Ignatius in 105AD onwards, from Rome to Greece to Alexandria, one would have to put forward a theory of how everybody got it wrong at the exact same time in the exact same way. Your side, lacking an explanation really makes it impossible to believe. It would be as plausible to claim that somebody corrupted the NT text everywhere at the same time in the same way.
cheryl u on 18 Aug 2009 at 5:42 pm #
John,
I think I may be a bit lost in this conversation. In your last comment above, are you saying that what has been believed universally since Ignatius onward is belief in the real presence in the Eucharist or belief that the priest is instrumental in some way in changing the bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ?
John on 18 Aug 2009 at 6:42 pm #
Cheryl: well both in that Ignatius said that only the bishop and those he authorizes can serve the Eucharist, and Clement writing even earlier than Ignatius writes of “the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have presented offerings” and he parallels the work of the presbuter with a Levite priest “For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity.” Justin Martyr says that the Eucharist is “consecrated by the word of prayer”. Cyprian mentions that “when the sacred rites were completed and the deacon began ministering to those present, when its turn came to receive, it turned its little head away as if sensing the divine presence” and “”The priest who imitates that which Christ did, truly takes the place of Christ, and offers there in the Church a true and perfect sacrifice to God the Father.”.
EricW on 18 Aug 2009 at 6:48 pm #
John:
Do you believe that one must believe in the Real Presence in order to be a Christian?
If “yes,” what must one believe about the Real Presence (you can pick more than one):
1. That the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus during the Liturgy?
2. That the change in the bread and the wine is a consequence of the priest asking the Holy Spirit to make the bread and wine the body and blood of Christ?
3. Something else? If so, specifically what?
4. Something more? If so, specifically what?
5. Something less? If so, specifically what?
cheryl u on 18 Aug 2009 at 7:02 pm #
John,
I truly do not get it. I see nowhere in the New Testament, either in Jesus teaching or in the teaching of the Apostles that the priest has any part in changing the elements of the Eucharist into the real presence–body and blood of Christ. We are told to take eat and drink as this is His body and blood. Whether you take that in a more literal fashion or in a symbolic way, I simply don’t see that the priest has to do anything to accomplish any such change.
Do you know of a Scripture that says a priest must do that? If not and it is not so taught in the Bible, how can one say that it has been so believed from Ignatius onward and therefore can not be wrong?
Neal A. on 18 Aug 2009 at 7:31 pm #
Crucially, I think, the Real Presence fails the third criteria that Michael laid out: it is not clear clear from scripture that this belief is essential to Christianity. Therefore, it makes little difference if the first criteria holds (or first and second, which I think is a harder case to make, since many Catholics currently believe that Protestants are in fact Christian). As per Michael’s criteria, the Real Presence is not AND NEVER WAS essential, regardless of what all Christians at one point believed.
That might be cause for rejecting Michael’s criteria. If one is committed to the belief that denying the Real Presence means that one is not a Christian, then the Real Presence gives an existential argument that the criteria incorrectly exclude an essential doctrine. Thus, the criteria are not valid. Keep the doctrine and move the protestants into the heretic column.
On the other hand, admitting that the Real Presence is not essential, does not imply that it is wrong, unimportant, or not essential to the Catholic tradition (however you want to determine what is essential to Catholics). It simply says that denial of this doctrine does not amount to a fundamental rejection of Christianity.
John on 18 Aug 2009 at 11:26 pm #
Cheryl: Jesus said “do this” to the apostles, who are the first episcopate. I might just as well query you where anyone other than the episcopate gets this instruction. Of course I’m not reliant on sola scriptura. The scripture doesn’t say everything explicitely which is why Protestants argue over paedo baptism.
John on 18 Aug 2009 at 11:36 pm #
Neal: The real presence might (arguably) not be clearly essential, however it clearly may be essential ( jn 6 etc), which is of course the problem with Michael’s criteria. A parallel problem with Protestants are Lutherans who believe in baptismal regeneration vs Salvation Army who don’t baptize at all. Baptism might not be clearly essential, but it clearly may be essential judging by Lutheran theology.
And who is a Christian seems to obscure Michaels objective of essential Christian doctrine. Does baptism in some form fulfill Michael’s criteria? Clearly yes I think. So are salvation army Christian?
Neal A. on 19 Aug 2009 at 8:11 am #
John,
I think the primary point is to ask how can we identify doctrines that are essential to Christianity, not doctrines that are essential to any particular faith tradition within Christianity. Not all important doctrines are essential to Christianity. I believe a previous commenter questioned whether inerrancy and infallibility (two central doctrines of the Evangelical movement) are essential. Despite my firm commitment to those doctrines, I tend to agree – they are important but not essential.
As for baptism, that deserves further investigation. I’m not familiar with the salvation army as a distinct faith tradition but rather as a service organization, so I can’t offer any informed comments on the specifics of their theological system.
My guess, is, however, that this is a bigger topic than makes sense in this context, since I suspect we have very different conceptions of baptism.
cheryl u on 19 Aug 2009 at 8:50 am #
John,
Yes, they were told “do this in remembrance of me,” but I don’t see Jesus saying that they had to in any way be responsible for changing the elements into His real presence. That was my question and my problem. That doesn’t fit with my understanding of the doctrine at all.
steve martin on 19 Aug 2009 at 8:56 am #
Cheryl U.,
Pardon the interuption, but don’t you think that God could make Himself be present in bread and the wine of Communion?
After all, many people believe that He is actually present and living in their hearts?
John on 19 Aug 2009 at 9:53 am #
“I don’t see Jesus saying that they had to in any way be responsible for changing the elements into His real presence.”
Of course not. God does that part. What they have to do is proclaim “this is his body”.
cheryl u on 19 Aug 2009 at 10:02 am #
John,
In #61 above the question I asked you was regarding priests having a part in changing the elements into the actual body and blood of Christ. And you answered in the affirmative! Now you say they don’t. Either I am misunderstanding you 100% here or you are saying two different things as this conversation progresses. Clarify again? (It was your last clarification that made me think you believed this!)
EricW on 19 Aug 2009 at 12:18 pm #
cheryl u:
My understanding is that the Roman Catholic Church considers the priest to have the power/authority to change the elements when he pronounces the words of institution (“this is my body”).
The Orthodox Church (John’s church) regards the change as being done by the Holy Spirit some time after and as a result of the epiclesis, calling upon the Holy Spirit to make the bread and wine the body and blood of Jesus.
However, since only an Orthodox priest (or bishop) can perform the Eucharist, it does seem that in the Orthodox Church a priest is a necessary part in changing the elements since they cannot have a liturgy or Eucharist except as conducted by a priest or bishop. So while the priest isn’t exactly necessary to change the elements, there is no Eucharist without a priest, and the priest is the one who invokes/prays the epiclesis that calls upon the Holy Spirit to change the elements.
Thus, there is a distinction between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches in regard to where and with whom the power resides to change the elements. In the Roman Catholic Church it resides in and with the priest. In the Orthodox Church, the Holy Spirit alone has the power to change the elements, but it occurs during a liturgy conducted by a priest.
Also, in the Roman Catholic Church, the mass can be said by the priest alone and for himself alone – i.e., he can confect and partake of the Eucharist all by himself – whereas in the Orthodox Church a priest by himself cannot have a liturgy; there must be a “church” – i.e., at least one other Orthodox person who participates in it so the “body” is present.
So while a priest seems to be absolutely necessary in the Roman Catholic church to change the elements, in the Orthodox Church a priest is by default necessary, since without a priest there is no liturgy/Eucharist, even if the priest doesn’t have the authority/power to effect the change.
Or so I think.
steve martin on 19 Aug 2009 at 12:24 pm #
Lutherans believe that God’s Word of promise (this IS my body…this IS my blood) attached to the elements (by God) is what cause the elements to actually contain that which they promise.
It is not the pastor, or the priest, but God Himself who makes this happen.
In our church, a lay person could preside over th Sacraments, but it is most often done by the pastor for good order.
Michael Williams on 26 Aug 2009 at 11:54 pm #
Hebrews 11 recounts many faithful servants who, along with Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and others are undoubtedly in Heaven now, for they knew God and trusted Him without yet knowing the person of Jesus Christ or the Church in that earlier dispensation. Through knowing God, they now know Christ, as Jesus proclaimed of Abraham rejoicing over “His Day”. The thief on the cross did not partake of the Eucharist as you describe it, however you define it, possibly another dispensation. Are you saying that anyone who receives Christ on their deathbed without recieving the Eucharist or being baptized cannot be saved? The thief believed on God, without fully understanding who God is. Though we may know Him, none of us know or understand God completely or perfectly, though we may now know that He is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. “Only Believe.” The thief recognized that he was a sinner. He asked God, in Christ, to forgive him, accepting by faith that Jesus was LORD and Savior, and Jesus saved him. He was born again! Love God and Love your neighbor as your self. All the Law and the Prophets hang one these! Are these not the “essentials” of Salvation and Christianity? According to the Bible, we are all among the “priesthood of believers” if we are believers indeed, but it is God who Saves!
John on 27 Aug 2009 at 12:04 am #
“Are you saying that anyone who receives Christ on their deathbed without recieving the Eucharist or being baptized cannot be saved?”
Surely we must distinguish between what is normative and what is exceptional. Is it possible someone could be saved, but never in their lives go to church? Or be baptised? Or read the bible? We can only talk about what is normative in the Christian life, and leave the rest up to God. Otherwise Christianity is bare minimalism.
steve martin on 27 Aug 2009 at 12:21 am #
God can make the stones shout if He so desires.
He can save apart from baptism, but He also saves through baptism.
We baptize because Christ commanded it, and because the scriptures tell us of it’s efficacy.
geekborj on 08 Sep 2009 at 10:24 am #
The Scriptures (OT and NT) gives us an idea how the ancient Church developed into: (1) accepting non-Jewish, Gentiles, into the Church, (2) assignment of spiritual offices that have authority over morals and faith, (3) conquering the world by being able to preach and build a church in Rome, the then center of the world trade and politics, and many more.
#s 3 and 4 seem to contradict the idea that the Bible is written and interpreted by the Spirit and hence not that clear unless willed by God. Hence, while some parts are clear enough, there are things that are written that even the writer might have not understood it (e.g. Revelation/Apocalypse) but only because the Spirit told them to. Hence, being “clear” and “explicit” should not be there. When the Apostles accepted Gentile Baptism and rejected Circumcision Law for the Gentiles, these were not at all based on their Scriptures (OT) but because of the Holy Spirit guiding the Church through their leadership.
Indeed, history will give us hints as to how the current “flavors” of Christianity came about. Who and when did your “church” began existing? For what reasons was it “built”? I think Bro. Michael did a good point for #s 1 and 2 here.
Bryan Cross on 11 Nov 2009 at 8:33 am #
Michael,
Your list does not include anything (explicitly) about the Church, and about who holds teaching authority in the Church. Without a designation of who holds teaching authority, then no list of essentials is any more authoritative than any other list. Yours is then just one man’s opinion in a sea of opinions.
Also, your list seems to rule out the possibility of development, as Newman describes it.
In the peace of Christ,
- Bryan
DB Willis on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:12 pm #
I have not read all of the postings, but I read the original article, which I enjoyed.
One observation: Someone asked about how does this square with the Trinity? I would say the Bible does not explicitly teach the “doctrine of the Trinity”, however, the Bible is fairly explicit that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. One does not have to be Trinitarian per se to accept the above statement. So I would say that one does not have to have a Trinitarian understanding to be saved–however, I believe they still must accept the deity of the Father, the Son, and Spirit.
A question: using your criteria, what does this say about baptism by immersion into Jesus? If we understand by definition baptizo is to “dip, plunge, immerse” (as opposed to rhantizo)–since baptism has had universal acceptance by the church from the first century on, since it is commanded and presented as normative in the biblical text–is the practice essential?
DB Willis on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:26 pm #
Oh, and lest anyone get the wrong idea: as one poster said we must distinguish between normative and exceptional. I believe it was John…and Steve’s comment is a good explanation (he can save apart but he also saves through)…
As far as the nature of the eucharist is concerned, I do think the 3rd principle comes strongly into play: is this clearly expressed in scripture? A simple reading of the texts seem to indicate an actual meal where bread and wine are included. Jesus is portrayed as present as host. This is the Messianic banquet where all are welcomed. It is amazing how through the centuries we have changed a meal into a pinch of special bread and sip of wine (or juice depending on your view of alcohol) that almost seems to be magical. And I apologize if I am being offensive to some who post, I really don’t mean to be. But I think the simplest reading of text demands this was once a full meal rich with metaphoric power that due to abuses was cut down to a purely symbolic ritual.
Chris Weimer on 09 Dec 2009 at 3:44 am #
My question was how did you arrive at those (see other post) essentials.
Your response:
“Scripture: Is it explicit stated and is it clearly presented
History: Is it explicit stated and is it clearly presented”
So the next question is thus:
Whose scripture and whose history?
C Michael Patton on 09 Dec 2009 at 3:48 am #
First, do you accept the Scriptures as inspired or believe that Christ rose bodily from the grave? Please don’t misunderstand; I am not pulling out a trump card, but trying to focus so we don’t waste time speaking from our respective presupposition and then failing to get anywhere because we are having the wrong conversation (I do this a lot).
My basis for accepting the authority of Scripture has to do with my belief in Christ resurrection and the implications of his involvement in history. If you can’t go there with me, then the conversation that we need to have is concerning Christ’s resurrection. Its a methodological issue first.
Chris Weimer on 09 Dec 2009 at 3:54 am #
The answer to both from my perspective is no.
Michael T on 09 Dec 2009 at 4:05 am #
Chris,
Sorry to interject myself in your and CMP’s conversation, but I have a couple questions out of curiosity.
1. Do you consider yourself a Christian or wish to have this title applied to you?
2. Do you disbelieve Christ’s resurrection story based upon the simple scientific fact that dead people don’t rise from the dead or some other factor?
Chris Weimer on 09 Dec 2009 at 4:11 am #
Hi Michael #2:
“1. Do you consider yourself a Christian or wish to have this title applied to you?”
No.
“2. Do you disbelieve Christ’s resurrection story based upon the simple scientific fact that dead people don’t rise from the dead or some other factor?”
Not entirely. Yes, that’s part of the story, but also because there’s not good enough evidence to contradict the scientific fact.
However, this is entirely unrelated to my point that Michael Patton’s list of essentials for salvation was constructed with circular logic. Why get off on the tangent of my beliefs?
Michael T on 09 Dec 2009 at 4:15 am #
Curiosity was all….carry on
Chris Weimer on 09 Dec 2009 at 4:17 am #
And curiosity is a mighty fine reason in my opinion.
Chris
Chris Weimer on 09 Dec 2009 at 4:19 am #
By the way, 1st Michael (Patton), if I’m in violation of the rules (it seems like, perhaps I’m misreading, that this blog isn’t an appropriate venue for dialogue…) just let me know.
Chris
Michael T on 09 Dec 2009 at 11:08 am #
Hey Chris,
Just a thought I had last night, but was too tired to post (it was 4am) which may either muddy everything or clarify things. I think you might be confusing two issues.
1. The first is what things are essential for salvation according to historical Christianity. Every historical movement, religious or otherwise, has had founders which described the beliefs of the movement and what was necessary to be a part of that movement. In addition they have often defined who is outside that movement and who they are against.
2. The second issues is whether or not this historic Christianity accurately represents the historical figure of Jesus (I guess I’m assuming here that you believe Jesus actually existed in some form, but I don’t think this is too much of a stretch since most scholars do). It is hypothetically possible that historic Christianity as traditionally understood at some point diverged from the truth about who Jesus was and what his teaching were. In contrast maybe Arius or the Gnostics got it right (now I personally don’t believe this to be true for numerous reason, but it is hypothetically possible and someone could come to different conclusions then me). However, if the Gnostics were right and historic Christianity is wrong this would not change what the essentials for salvation were according to historic Christianity it would just make them wrong (in the same way that a Muslim would believe they are wrong).
I think ultimately this is about how we define words and I know of no other way to define a word used to define a historical movement then by the beliefs of those who founded the movement in the earliest years. If I was trying to describe “Historical Communism” and define who is a Communist according to this I would do so by reading the writings of Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, Yet this is of course circular again since I’ve had to decide ahead of time who the real communists are and thus I’ve excluded some people and my assumption has predetermined the result about who is and isn’t a Communist. To accept your argument about CMP’s reasoning being circular would negate being able to define the beliefs of any historical movement (again having nothing to do with whether or not those beliefs are right).
C Michael Patton on 09 Dec 2009 at 11:12 am #
“Whose scripture and whose history?”
God’s given to the church. Which church? The one that God said the gates of hell would not prevail against. Which one is that? The one that the gates of hell have not prevailed against being defined by the consensus fidelium of the Vincention canon. Those who have trusted in Christ according to the consesus of faith as expressed through Scripture and history (explicit and clear).