Do you think any single committee, could ever really agree, and be widely accepted, on what the original teaching of the Bible really was? The reason we have so many different denominations, is that the center in the past, never held.

Though to some extent, reasonable platforms for standardization, exist when a preacher agrees to teach for a given recognized denomination. With its rules, dogmas, and so forth.

If Butch is a hound, does it therefore follow that the church he starts would be a “seeker” church?

But seriously…

Many years ago a “pastor” from a local fringe church came into our bookstore requesting a concordance. I showed him a couple and then he started asking further questions; very, very, very, basic questions. It started to dawn on me that this “pastor” had never seen or used such a thing before. I (a layperson) was teaching him (a pastor) how to use a concordance.

At that point, I decided there are four fundamental questions that have to be answered of such people: (a) Who called you to come here and start this church? (b) Who sent you? (c) Who trained you? (d) To whom are you accountable?

I think they are good questions. Problem is, several years later I felt an unmistakable calling to begin a church plant in our area. Quite honestly, if that test were in place, depending on the standard, I might have easily failed on all four points. (But in fairness, I was constantly scanning the horizon waiting for someone to assume a proper pastorate among our little flock; church planting can be segregated from the larger topic at issue here.)

Oh, and then later there was the guy who said (a) God called me; (b) God sent me; (c) God taught me; (d) I am accountable to God.

“John, why would succession require personal agencies that are personally aquainted?”

That’s ok, but then are you going to declare yourself in succession from Chrysostom or something? Does this succession have arbitrarily large chronological gaps?

Ok, let’s say you can have these big gaps. How do be in succession from Basil, Gregory, and Chrysostom, and not end up being Eastern Orthodox anyway? Or don’t you want to be in succession from them, you want to be in succession from Luther? So you pick and choose who to succeed from, in which case you could just as well succeed from people holding any old theological position?

I’m still not seeing how evangelical apostolic succession does anything.

You may have addressed this somewhere. But what do you do with the claim by the Roman Catholic Church, that Apostolic Succession means that Jesus handed authority to the apostle Peter – who passed it on only to the Popes?

The claim of the CHurch is that the original apostles had authority, and they founded the Church and bishops of the day – later called the Roman Catholic Church – as their successors. So that no one but the Roman Catholic Church has the authority to pronounce on religious matters.

John, why would succession require personal agencies that are personally aquainted? Can one not be a disciple of someone’s teaching even though they have never met?

I don’t get why you would assume the necessity of personal relationship (if that is what you are saying).

It’s just as well dogs are good at shepherding flocks! I only hope Butch is a sheep-dog.

“My more formal proposal of Apostolic Succession does not necessitate a succession in person, just a succession in teaching.”

But there is no continuous succession in teaching in evangelicalism. If there is no succession, then suggesting a principle of succession is promoting a nonsense.

If a non-continuous succession is enough, then that of course is a meaningless succession since you can just make a break again with no in principle problem.

I don’t understand this posting.

Oh and I just noticed the site that is reference “TheGreyCoats”, they are a bunch of radical, viscous, reformed bloggers I have ever come across.

***Sarcasm alert*** I did not enjoy my time at there site at all. Don’t you dare disagree with any of their positions because they are the true apostolic successors that you have been looking for.***Sarcasm alert***

Michael, although I think you have a noble thought and passion I seriously doubt this would ever work. Christianity today is so diversified that I am not sure the various evangelical groups would buy into your 4 suggestions.

1. Does the Bible speak clearly to the issue
2. Does the Bible explicitly identify this issue as an essential
3. Does the history of the church speak clearly to this issue
4. Does the history of the church identify this issues as essential

Your last two could be misleading, silence or lack practice on behalf of a particular generation does not equate to what we should or should not practice today. Certainly one should reflect and consider, but I think much of what N.T. Wright has been writing on is at least on a path that we should rethink.

Also your first two questions, they will be filtered by which sort of evangelicalism you currently hold to. If you are a reformed evangelical or whatever other position you hold to, then your views are are going to be highly tainted as to what it means “Does the bible speak clearly or explicitly”

Without you even mentioning it on this blog post people are already making charges against groups that hold to a Charismatic position (i.e. IHOP). Hey I don’t know and honestly don’t care what IHOP is doing. Maybe there is some good out of it??? As you can see the divisions begin before you even start.

Lisa:

I just returned from a trip to Israel, and Mike Bickle’s and IHOP’s influence was quite visible/audible (in terms of books and worship music and services) among the messianic and other believers we fellowshiped with there.

(We lived in KC when Bickle’s church started and attended it for awhile from the very beginning. We were there when the Kansas City Prophets issue came to a head. Google for it if you don’t know what I’m talking about. This IHOP thing has been in the works since the late-1980s, at least in early form.)

Ernie Gruen, the Kansas City pastor who first blew the whistle on this:

http://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/the-vindication-of-ernie-gruen/

(the crossed-out links still work)

passed away on June 1 of this year.

Oh my, at first I thought you were talking about pancakes.

Sadly, I think you are right.