Anyone with doubt is not a christian. People just want to believe in god so badly that they’ll even make rationalizations for themselves when deep down they question it.

You may believe or question the existense of god…..but don’t question this – the ‘bible’ is foolish. You can question whether or not there is a god, while still ignoring foolish things like the quaron/bible/torah/ etc.

I can honestly say I’ve never doubted God’s existence. The world has always seemed too extraordinary to a thing to have come in to being with no intelligent cause. And I always think God must be ultimately good and just and will eventually make all things right in the end. I mean, intellectually, that’s the way it has to be, right? But I still have one question, and it is the most important: What if this all righteous, just God, still really doesn’t care a whit about me? Yes, He will make all things right some day, but what if the good in my life, from the heavenly perspective, isn’t a part of that? I’m dealing with some family members’ addicitons right now, and all that that entails (abuse included), no Church to help, and no sense of God’s presence at all. It’s been going from bad to worse for years now, despite my prayers and attempts to keep going. And then I’m dealing with some people telling me that Jesus didn’t die for everyone, not really. That’s my doubt.

John the baptist doubted that jesus was the one to come … matthew 11.. peter doubted.. thomas doubted… every christian has doubts from time to time. if you never doubt, then i would find it hard to believe that you even have faith.

I am not saying to a believer that David’s position is irrelevant but rather how he sees his position is not relevant to the Christian perspective since the Christian takes the Bible as God’s word on the matter and it stands authoritatively over against any claimed experience.

I agree with your closing point, largely, but without bringing the testimony of the Bible to bear on David’s experience it’s going to be left mute. Furthermore, by investigating David’s experience we have a chance to look at how the Bible’s teaching applies to a real-world situation, in a way pertinent to the original post CMP made (regarding what happens when Christians doubt).

If we believe the Bible is true, it seems to me that we have an obligation to apply it to reality, rather than keeping it isolated from reality.

On the other hand, I agree that “how David sees his position” is less important — although not (as you said) irrelevant. David may possibly be wrong about his position; but David’s opinion about his position is important because if he’s wrong, that error is part of David’s position, and if his true position is relevant to our discussion, his error is relevant.

I’d like to explore how (and whether) doubt shades into unbelief, in support of CMP’s assertion that a true Christian can doubt without becoming non-Christian; that doubts about points of doctrine need not automatically destroy assurance of salvation.

I should add that I believe David’s testimony misses the point; as you’ll recall, David actually offered his testimony in order to show that a true Christian _can_ doubt, but the fact that he’s not a true Christian anymore actually argues _against_ that premise.

-Wm

WM Tanksley wrote “would he not see his experience as testimony against the claims John makes, and therefore confirm his unbelief?”

To him [ David ] this may or may not be how he sees it, but it would in the believers perspective irrelevant. I am not saying to a believer that David’s position is irrelevant but rather how he sees his position is not relevant to the Christian perspective since the Christian takes the Bible as God’s word on the matter and it stands authoritatively over against any claimed experience. All because the Worldview of the bible alone provides and accounts for meaning and truth and right and wrong and so on.

please keep that in mind as you debate such a possibly emotionally charged issue.

Gary

But it seems to me that there a difference between believing certain propositions about Christianity and being a Christian.

This is without a doubt true, and bears directly on the question of whether we can doubt without being ‘deconverted’ (whatever that means). This person used to believe, and thought that he was a real Christian; now he does not believe, and thinks that he is not a Christian at all. We both say (following 1 John 2:19) that if he had truly been a Christian he would not have left us — but what good does that message do for someone who is experiencing doubts, but hasn’t “left” the faith? And, looking back, what good does that do to “David from GA”, who used to be certain of his faith and now is reasonably certain in his unbelief (David, I hope I’m not reading anything unjustified into your post) — would he not see his experience as testimony against the claims John makes, and therefore confirm his unbelief?

I have some ideas, but I need to get on the road now… Does anyone else have some?

-Wm

Hi Dave:

I am sorry to hear your testimony about being “deconverted”. It sounds like this was a very painful experience for you.

But it seems to me that there a difference between believing certain propositions about Christianity and being a Christian. Jesus talks about becoming converted to God as a spiritual event– one is “born again” (John 3:5-7). Likewise, Paul defines the essence of being Christian as being one in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells, since he says, “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him (Romans 8:9)” and “… do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? (1 Cor 6:19).

So believing that the Bible is inerrant, that God does exist, that Jesus is who He says He is, etc. are important, but there are some (perhaps many) who believe such propositions and yet are not Christians.

Don’t give up the fight of faith. As human beings we all struggle with doubts, as Michael was talking about. But the Christian faith is reasonable– it is not blind faith. Do you think that there is a solution to man’s deepest problem– sin– apart from Christ?

The disciples’ faith was very imperfect, yet Peter declared, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

They knew this because no one ever spoke or acted like Jesus. And God opened their eyes to see it. I hope you will find Jesus again.

But suffice it to say, the answer is a resounding yes. One can be a true christian and have doubts about god at the must fundamental level. I never thought I would be anything else but a christian. The thought never even entered my mind. But here I am after having left the faith because of the doubts that I had and the questions that couldn’t be answered.

Thanks for the followup — and for bringing us right back to the main topic — but I think you slightly misread his question. A brief restatement of what he was asking would be “Can a true Christian doubt God at the most fundamental level and remain a true Christian.” Your story is on topic, but testifies how you became not a true Christian — it doesn’t tell us whether a true Christian remains true even while doubting.

-Wm

Hello Michael,

Your post began like this:
I have been in a conversation recently about doubt. Most specifically, the question that has risen is, “Can a true Christian doubt God at the most fundamental level.”

As a recently deconverted christian, I thought this was a great question to ask. I had been in the faith for 36 years, a church board member and lay youth pastor. I had always taken the entire bible as the infallible word of god. There was never a doubt in my mind whatsoever. I, in fact, used to defend the scriptures wholeheartedly to mormons, jehovah’s witnesses and non-believers.
However, about a year ago, I began to have doubts. At first, I simply began investigating the historicity of the stories in the Old Testament. Eventually, I also began examining the New Testament as well. Over a period of about six months, I slowly began losing my once rock-solid faith in the bible. As a result, I began losing my faith in the existence of the biblical god as well. Today, I am no longer a believer. I sometimes wish I could be back in the faith, but I can’t.
For tthe sake of brevity, I’m going to stop here. But suffice it to say, the answer is a resounding yes. One can be a true christian and have doubts about god at the must fundamental level. I never thought I would be anything else but a christian. The thought never even entered my mind. But here I am after having left the faith because of the doubts that I had and the questions that couldn’t be answered.

Was it the disciples who said, “We believe! Help us in our unbelief!” Apparently, parsing this logically, there can be an measure of unbelief, doubt, in belief.

Or those who “believe,” are allowed a bit of doubt, and yet can still be called believers.