Can Christians Doubt?
I have been in a conversation recently about doubt. Most specifically, the question that has risen is, “Can a true Christian doubt God at the most fundamental level.” A girl just wrote to me and said that she often envies Christians who don’t ever doubt. I told her that there is really no such thing. All people doubt!
Let me be clear (for this is something that many people would disagree with me on): I don’t think that belief should ever be conceived of as “black and white.” No, don’t go there. I am not talking about some form of relativism with regard to the nature of truth (i.e. there is no such thing as truth). What I am saying is that people vary with regard to the strength of their beliefs. And I am saying that this can vary from time to time. Belief can go up and down. In other words, belief is not something that you either have or you don’t.
I have already revealed my proposition (i.e. a truly born again believer can doubt). Let me define “fundamental level.” What I mean is that a Christian can doubt to such a degree that they even doubt the very existence of God. Yes, I am assuming that you have done the same. I have and sometimes still do.
Where did this come from? I had a different conversation today when a lady, whom no one would ever expect, came to me in confidence expressing her inner pain. “I have recently been doubting the existence of God,” she told me with much trepidation. I think that she was most surprised that I was not surprised (well, maybe a little).
A dictionary definition of a straight line is “the shortest path between two points.” The definition of doubt, at least from one perspective, is the line that bridges our faith and perfect faith. I am under the assumption that no one has perfect faith. If this is true, then everyone’s faith is lacking in some respect. This lack will take on different forms for different people and different circumstances. Sometimes it will show itself though particular habitual sins. Sometimes it is our own pride. Many times it takes the form of doubt at our most fundamental levels.
I don’t believe that this is wrong. Let me step back and rephrase. In a fallen world with fallen people—and Christians who are still battling the flesh—should we expect anything else? Do you really believe that once you become a Christian doubt is no longer a foe? So it is wrong only in the sense that living in a fallen world is wrong. It is bad to the degree that being a resurrection short of full redemption is bad.
These are the words of another who sent me an email today (it has been a day full of this issue for some reason): “I lived for so many years doubting as religion was crammed down my throat, and watched those very same people live in hatred and judgement…now I know that Christ is not about rituals, dogma, and I was so relieved to find out it was OK to question…I just didn’t know what I didn’t know.”
I can’t read too much into this, but my assumption is that many people, like the one above, are afraid to make a commitment because they have worked under the unfounded assumption that our faith must be perfect. J.P. Moreland once said if someone believes 51% and disbelieves 49%, they are a believer in that which holds the greatest percent.
Do Christians doubt? Of course we do. But this does not mean we don’t believe. You may be at 63%, 95%, or 51%, but know that your ability to rise above 50% is of the Lord. He is with you and will hold you tight. Doubt is a necessary by-product of imperfection. It is a necessary evil that accompanies us on our road to belief.
If you enjoyed this post, make sure you subscribe to my RSS feed!- The Bridge Called Doubt
- Mother Teresa’s Final Gift
- Catholics in Heaven?
- People Leaving the Church: What Do We Do?
- Christians Can be So Bizarre or “He Hates the Buildings!”
Print This Post

Zach on 21 Jul 2009 at 3:55 pm #
I fully agree! And I mea, come on! Is’nt everything always super magnified with God? So if I were to doubt Him or His promises in the least, wouldnt it be just as great? So I would have to concur that without a doubt (ha), doubt is something that will effect every Christian’s walk. Look at Martin Luther
Vance on 21 Jul 2009 at 4:12 pm #
I find my most common areas of doubt come in the areas of exactly the breadth and nature of what it means to be “right with God” and within His grace. As I get older and, I hope, wiser, I also become more humble in this regard. How likely is it that the form of worship and belief about God that I grew up is the “one and only” way? Just lucky? While I still believe that the basic teachings of the Gospel (as opposed to so much of what is stressed in evangelical Christianity) is the path God has set out for us, I often doubt if it is the only path.
Jugulum on 21 Jul 2009 at 4:57 pm #
“Can Christians Doubt?”
Hmm… I’m not sure.
Jim W. on 21 Jul 2009 at 5:16 pm #
‘I don’t think that belief should ever be conceived of as “black and white.” ‘
I realize the “black and white” reference here is only to faith but you have expressed a similar view in other areas as well.
Just curious, how do you deal with John, especially in 1 John? He expresses himself through many “black/white”, “either/or” statements.
Joshua Allen on 21 Jul 2009 at 5:28 pm #
There are many times that I’ve wanted to convince myself that God didn’t exist, so that I could persuade myself to eat of some fruit. And a very few times that the deceiver made me fear that God didn’t exist.
I believe that both situations are pretty common for Christians.
Neither case indicates outright disbelief in God. The first case is when you desire sin so much that you allow your faith to diminish (all sin is caused by lack of faith). The second case is Satan tempting you to diminish your faith.
Or to put it another way, I don’t believe that most atheists even completely doubt God’s existence. The thirst for justice and mercy are innate, and have to be massively cauterized before someone’s heart is totally hardened.
Wm Tanksley on 21 Jul 2009 at 5:40 pm #
Hmm… just some related observations…
I think if I thought about my best friend the same way I think about God I’d probably start experiencing doubt about the existence of my best friend, too. I think the reason for this isn’t that God’s impact on us is indirect; I think it’s because He’s so important to us. We don’t want to leave the faintest chance of being wrong.
Also, I’m not comfortable with the whole 50% talk… I can’t quantify doubt that finely, but I doubt
that I’ve never fallen below 50%. Those times when I did, did I lose my salvation for those few seconds? It just doesn’t seem to fit the Biblical evidence.
It’s clear, of course, that we *have* to believe that God exists, and rewards those who seek Him. It’s also clear that we — at least for some things — have to ask of God “nothing doubting” (James 1:6), although I’m not sure that “doubt” is the best translation there, perhaps the intention is that you’re not striving to prove God’s existence by your request, but rather genuinely asking for what you request. I’m saying that I don’t see a hard line of certainty. Clearly 0% certainty in God is unbelief, if such a thing were possible, but I don’t see how it could be, considering Romans 1.
…so many things to think about here.
Summary: I don’t think a percentage of doubt is a criteria for whether you’re a believer.
Tiffany on 21 Jul 2009 at 7:06 pm #
We also have to remember that the opposite of faith isn’t doubt, but knowledge. There will be a time where we (Christians) won’t live by faith anymore.
Michael on 21 Jul 2009 at 7:09 pm #
Thank you for this post.
Lisa Robinson on 21 Jul 2009 at 7:14 pm #
I think the newest members of the church must have doubted also. Perhaps the letters they received from the apostle’s pens were more about securing their faith than about addressing specific issues, even though specific issues were most certainly addressed. I am particularly thinking of Galatians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians and Philippians.
steve martin on 21 Jul 2009 at 7:19 pm #
There are times when I doubt. As with most of us I guess it depends on which day of the week you catch me on.
If we didn’t have doubts there would be no need for faith.
C Michael Patton on 21 Jul 2009 at 7:40 pm #
Yes, Lisa, the greatest example is John the Baptist who sent people to ask, “Are you the one?” John, who was called the “greatest of all men” by Christ struggled in his faith.
Leslie on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:20 am #
I read this somewhere, but it makes sense: Opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty!
Paul on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:28 am #
Alistair McGrath wrote a fine little book entited The Sunnier Side of Doubt, which some may find useful.
So, what about doubt?
Is commitment to a belief compatible with criticism of that belief? Put differently, is there any value in doubting my beliefs? How much doubt can I have in my beliefs and still hold them to be true?
I can be justified in holding the belief that my wife loves me while still being aware of the logical possibility that she may not love me. To say that I can recognize what it would look like if my wife did not love me is not to say that she in fact does not love me.
See my “Faith and Reason: Friends or Foes?”
bethyada on 22 Jul 2009 at 5:46 am #
Didn’t CS Lewis say that he doubted Christianity was true at times, but he had doubted it was false more as an atheist?
Or something like that?
bethyada on 22 Jul 2009 at 5:48 am #
Opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty!
Faith isn’t believing in something you think untrue, it is trusting in who you know to be true.
Increased certainty in the existence of God (and his faithfulness) enhances faith.
Mike B. on 22 Jul 2009 at 6:25 am #
The problem with doubt comes, not when you’re dealing with it in intellectual terms, but in practical terms. The problem comes when you are asked to act on your beliefs.
For example, if I am convinced that, if there is a God (of which I may be 60% sure at that moment), he is a God who desires me to preach and convert others to the faith, how can I really do that effectively if I am only 60% sure of the truth of what I am preaching? How can I ask others to have confidence in something that I am not even 100% sure I believe. It becomes less about confidence and more about probability. I would be telling people that they should believe because it is more likely to be true than not. That’s not really faith, that’s… well, it’s closer to Pascal’s wager.
Also, consider this. You wrote: “You may be at 63%, 95%, or 51%, but know that your ability to rise above 50% is of the Lord.”
But isn’t this something of a contradiction? If I’m only at 63%, then how do I know that my ability to rise above 50% is of the Lord? I’m only 63% sure that he exists in the first place. So logically I can’t be more than 63% sure that he is helping me overcome my doubt.
This is sort of the problem with the way most of my teachers have taught me to deal with doubt. They say essentially this: “It is OK to doubt as long as you come out on the other side still believing in God.” Well, how can you really doubt effectively if one conclusion is automatically ruled out as a possibility? Thus you are stuck in this endless middle ground, not having the kind of confidence necessary to really live the kind of life that your faith requires of you (taking steps that are more guesses than anything else), but unable to deny it either. It renders you incapable of any real kind of intellectual honesty because you can’t seriously entertain the thought of believing something other than what you already know that you’re supposed to believe, at least not without intense feelings of guilt.
Honestly, I am struggling with this kind of doubt myself, and I am finding that even the least bit of doubt is utterly crippling to the walk of faith, especially when it has a bearing on others. With these doubts, I can still try to live a Christ-like life, but when it comes time to preach it to others, I find the doubt to be utterly paralyzing. How do you deal with this?
Lisa Robinson on 22 Jul 2009 at 7:31 am #
I think these are 2 verses that really trip people up when it comes to doubting and looking down on those who do, especially in more legalistic circles:
Hebrews 11:6 – and without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
James 1:6-7 – but he must ask in faith without doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 8:20 am #
“With these doubts, I can still try to live a Christ-like life, but when it comes time to preach it to others, I find the doubt to be utterly paralyzing. How do you deal with this?”
I believe this is why the Lord commanded that we be baptized and partake of His Supper.
So that we might have assurance amidst our doubts.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 8:33 am #
Just another article that goes against the Word of God. Author is saying doubt is ok while Jesus is encouraging to have no doubt. Author’s standards and Jesus’ standards are as far away as the East is from the West.
Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”
Mat 21:21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.
Mark 11:23 “For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.
Mark 11:24 “Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.
James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
James 1:7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;
James 1:8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
I think our Christian writers need to get back to respecting the Word of God as it is written without manipulation or alteration.
Did anybody wonder that why there was no Bible verse given to back up the claim that doubt is ok? Today many times people are trusting their own imagination instead of trusting God’s Word.
Lisa Robinson on 22 Jul 2009 at 8:36 am #
Vinod, yours is a very sad, sad statement and completely misses the point of the article.
We all cannot walk on water like you apparently can.
Dr_Mike on 22 Jul 2009 at 8:41 am #
Os Guinness, in In Two Minds: The Dilemma of Doubt and How To Resolve It (1976), makes the point that the opposite of belief is not doubt, but unbelief. Doubt, he argued, is the state of being in two minds at the same time; it is to be a double-minded person.
Seemed to normalize doubt for me.
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 8:41 am #
Vinod Isaac,
Our entire way of being goes against the Word of God.
That’s why He had to come and be staked to wood for us.
If you don’t agree, I would ask that you read Luke 14:33 and see what else Jesus said we must do. And then honestly ask yourself if you are doing it.
Thank you.
Lisa Robinson on 22 Jul 2009 at 8:49 am #
Vinod yes, our entire way of being does run contrary to God (Romans 8:7). It’s Paul says in Galatians 5:16-17 that the flesh and Spirit are at odds with each other.
But he also indicates in Romans 7 this will pose a continual struggle within us, and that may too cause doubt.
You need to cut your doubting brothers and sisters some slack.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 8:50 am #
Lisa,
No it doesn’t miss the point.
Jesus has rebuked so many times saying “O you of little faith”. Point of what Jesus said is if you don’t have faith you need to increase it.
Mat 6:30 “Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
Mat 8:26 But He said to them, “Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?” Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”
Mat 16:8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread?
Mark 9:22 “And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
Mark 9:23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
Mark 9:24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
Mat 17:16 “So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him.”
Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.”
Mark 6:5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.
Mark 6:6 And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching.
Do you see that there are tons of places where it says exactly opposite to what author is saying in his article? I can give you many more verses where Jesus said “Your faith has made you well”
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 8:55 am #
Vinod Isaac,
When Jesus says, if you had faith you could move mountains, or when He says you could tell that tree to jump into the sea and it would…He is not spurring us on to greater faith but rather He is pointing out that WE DO NOT HAVE MUCH OF IT.
It is not the amount of faith that we have that is the important thing, but the object of that faith that is important.
God has many of us by a thread on our collar…but He has us nonetheless.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 9:01 am #
Hi Steve,
you asked
“If you don’t agree, I would ask that you read Luke 14:33 and see what else Jesus said we must do. And then honestly ask yourself if you are doing it.”
My answer is yes I am doing it. I have renounced my way of doing things and have embraced God’s way of doing things. The things that were dear to me are no more my first priorities.
I wanted to go for Electronics Engineering and was adament on it but Lord asked me to go for Computer programming. Well kicking and screaming I finally ended up in Computer programming.
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 9:07 am #
He didn’t say renounce “your way of doing things”.
He said, “renounce all that you have.”
Get rid of everything.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 9:07 am #
Steve,
you said
“It is not the amount of faith that we have that is the important thing, but the object of that faith that is important.”
That is just a way to twist things. Jesus did say repeatedly “O you of little faith”. Either it is amount or object doesn’t matter all that matters is that we need to replace dobut with faith.
Yes most of the time it is very hard to do but it is essential. Situation you see on ground makes more impact on human brain than the things unseen. Reality on the ground obscures our view of what God is going to do or God is able to do.
We all like to do what is easy but if we go one step further and tap into the area of faith we can see much more of God’s hand moving.
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 9:10 am #
Vinod Isaac,
I’m glad that you have such a great handle on things.
“Thank you Lord that I am not like other men”
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 9:11 am #
Vinod,
I’m trying to figure out what you think CMP was saying.
Is it something like this? “It’s OK to doubt–if you find yourself doubting, that’s not a problem to be fixed. It’s just the way things are. It’s fine to stay that way.”
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 9:29 am #
Hi steve,
Check these two links.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Luke+14%3A33§ion=0&version=str&new=1&oq=&NavBook=lu&NavGo=14&NavCurrentChapter=14
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1438&version=kjv
first one is Luke 14:33 KJV with strong’s numbers. Second link is meaning of greek word that is not translated in Luke 14:33 which you find as just * with underline. That word means himself so if I interpret like you that will mean that one need to get rid of himself. Well ofcourse I am not going to kill myself.
I think that underlines your problem with the interpetation of that verse.
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 9:39 am #
Vinod Isaac,
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I’m glad that you are spending every spare moment helping others and “giving youself up”.
I’m sure that you always go to the prisons and visit the incarcerated, I’m sure that you go to the nursing homes each weekday after work and that work in the homeless shelters on the weekends, foregoing watching T.V., or taking vacations for yourself.
I’m sure you live on a very thin margin of income and give the rest to the poor.
I’m glad you are doing all those things that Jesus wants us to do. It proves that you do have strong faith.
Joshua on 22 Jul 2009 at 9:55 am #
Vinod Isaac,
I’m curious, what do you think faith is or what is your definition of the term?
And how does one “increase their faith”? Are their steps to be taken, or how does one gage when their faith has increased or stayed the same?
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:06 am #
Hi steve,
From where you get that list of items to be done? I don’t read them in the Bible.
How much of it did Jesus do? I don’t see Him doing any of what you have written.
Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Jesus didn’t say deny yourself and go to nursing home or homeless shelter. All He said was “follow Me”
Don’t take me wrong. I am not saying that all the things you mentioned are wrong. What I am trying to say is those things don’t equal “follow Me”.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:17 am #
Thanks Joshua for that question.
Desciples asked very same question.
Luke 17:5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
Jesus replied like this.
Luke 17:6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.
Well desciples can say Jesus we don’t need another lecture we want our faith to be increased. What did Jesus do here? He just increased their faith. Believe me after hearing this 6th verse desciples had more faith than they had in verse 5.
How? they heard the Word of God
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
If people just stop listening to teachers who destroy faith and start hearing God’s Word they can increase their faith.
Every time you read the Word of God pause for a moment and think “do I believe that verse or passage”? Can I believe it unaltered?
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:17 am #
Vinod Isaac,
I have no doubt that you are a Christian. I went to your website and you proclaim Jesus.
But you have a lot to learn about the law of God. It’s demand upon us is relenting.
Jesus said “when I was in prison you visited me, when I was sick you came to me” (Matthew 25:36)
We flat out refuse to live the way that Jesus tells us to live.
We might do those things once in awhile, when it is convenient and won’t take too much of our resources (and even then our motives are not pure).
But we are selfish at heart and need a Savior.
“While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” If you are one (a real sinner) then you qualify.
That’s the Good News.
Joshua on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:24 am #
So what does one do when they come across a verse like Matthew 21:21?
Are they suppose to read that verse again and again until they have the faith to literally move mountains and throw them into the sea?
Again, I’m confused at the method by which you are employing the use of the Word of God in “increasing your faith”. Is human reason used in this process or is it purely based on what the text is telling you at the time you read it? In other words is it based on your subjective experience with God through reading His Word?
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:30 am #
Hi Jugulum,
I will put it this way. Any one who reads CMP’s article, his/her faith will go down like stock market goes down.
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:30 am #
Jesus tells us quite plainly that we DO NOT HAVE FAITH THAT WOULD AMOUNT TO THE SIZE OF A MUSTARD SEED.
He gives us faith. We don’t need much (Thanks be to God!).
Some have weak faith and some a stronger faith. Whatever we have…it is enough.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:32 am #
Vinod,
That didn’t answer my question. It tells me what you think the ramifications of CMP’s post are. It doesn’t tell me what you think CMP was saying.
I’m going to repeat my question–because (1) it’s difficult to tell what you mean without being clear on what you think you’re disagreeing with, and (2) I think there’s a good chance that you misunderstood the point of the post.
What do you think CMP was saying? Is it something like this?
“It’s OK to doubt–if you find yourself doubting, that’s not a problem to be fixed. It’s just the way things are. It’s fine to stay that way.”
Or in other words, what do you think was CMP’s main point?
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:43 am #
Hi steve,
Jesus said “when I was in prison you visited me, when I was sick you came to me” (Matthew 25:36)
I don’t see a connection of this verse with “deny yourself”. A real Christian will do lot of such things by himself because of the nature of Christ put in us.
I remember somebody asking me for financial help and I was myself in financial trouble that time. I went ahead and helped him anyway and I told him he didn’t need to repay me back.
Another time I was in big financial trouble. Some believers helped me and they said the very same thing that I don’t need to repay them although I told them that when I get money I will reply.
Till that time I had seen people who give money and come back often and ask that when I am going to repay. So I could see that in the love of Christ we do it not expecting anything in return while the world out their does it expecting return with interest.
Far greater than doing these things we proclaim that Jesus saves. Out of compassion we help and we have to do it but if we can not move with compassion for the dying world that is dying in sin we are not following Him.
We don’t have that burning desire to reach to 6 billion people of the world and are satisfied with small things we do for the Lord then some thing is seriously wrong with us.
Lisa Robinson on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:44 am #
Vinod,
What or who exactly is the object of your faith? Is it in God or the ability to have faith?
Jeremy on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:53 am #
Vinod I think your causing me to become a doubter……
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:56 am #
Hi Joshua,
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The more you read the Word and put your trust on it, faith will automatically increase.
No matter if you repeatedly read the same portion over and over again or read different portions.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.
Col 3:16 “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly…..”
Dave Z on 22 Jul 2009 at 10:59 am #
Man, I doubt almost everything sometimes. The existence of God, the veracity of Scripture, the truth of Christianity. What else have you got? Serve it up and I’ll doubt it.
As someone hinted at earlier, maybe I accept Christianity only because of where I was born and grew up. Had I been born in the USSR would I be an atheist? If in India, a hindu? Japan, buddhist? It is said that if you hear something often enough, you’ll believe it’s true. I was born in a “Christian” nation, therefore exposed heavily to Christianity, which I accepted. That does not make it true.
Other faiths hold their beliefs with great conviction, willing to die (and to kill) for them. Yet we say their beliefs are false. How do I know mine are true? Because I believe them? Because my “Faith” is strong? I find that to be a terrifying possibility. I look with dread on the possibility that I’ve invested my life in something that may not be true, so I constantly look hard at my beliefs to see if they can hold up under examination.
I can easily imagine a scenario in which fear of death leads to development of religion. McCartney sings “At the end of the end, It’s the start of a journey to a much better place.” That could just be wishful thinking because he wants to see Linda again, and cannot bear the possibility that she is forever ended. We don’t want life to end. And that’s just an extension of the same survival instinct that makes my backyard chickens panic when a coyote gets in the yard. So we make up an afterlife and sing songs about it. I’m reminded of the rabbit poets in “Watership Down.”
It’s easy to doubt.
In the big picture, doubt can be helpful, because it makes me examine evidence for what I believe. Maybe it’s even essential. I think we could say that the whole field of apologetics is founded on doubt. And apologetics has established tremendous evidence for Christianity and given me “reason to believe.” My beliefs are stronger and more settled by the fruits, if you will, of doubt.
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:00 am #
Jesus tells Niccodemus that “the Holy Spirit creates faith when and where He wills”.
It is a gift of God, and is not automatic.
This stuff is not magic, you know.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:06 am #
Hi lisa,
That’s a wrong question. That’s a trick of devil to divert people away from trying to increase their faith. Some body has brain washed the believers with such tricky questions.
“ability to have faith” is not an object of faith.
object of faith is obviously “God”.
question is how much faith or trust do we have on God and God’s ability?
I am sure you may have heard Billy Graham narrating wheel barrow story.
He turned to the crowd: ‘How many of you believe I can
roll a man across?’
Everybody shouted they believe but when asked to get into the wheelbarrow no body was ready. That is the level of faith we have when It comes to put God’s Word into practice in our own lives.
Question is when Jesus asks do you believe can we say yes Lord we believe and can we really act on that faith?
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:10 am #
Mark 9:24 “Lord I believe, help me in my unbelief.”
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:16 am #
steve,
I don’t see Jesus saying that to nicodemous. May be you are trying to quote something else?
Here is what Jesus said.
John 3:12 “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
I don’t know what you mean by it is not automatic or it is not magic.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:18 am #
Hi Jugulum,
I repeat what I said that CMP’s article is designed to destroy faith. Devil has played his tricks that people don’t believe and keep doubting.
This articles just serves the purpose of Devil and contradicts everything Jesus said.
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:22 am #
Vinod Isaac,
I’m wondering if we are reading the same Bible.
It’s there…. read it again. “The Spirit is like the wind, it blows where it will.”
Jesus tells Niccodemus that he can’t do it (be born again -[have faith] himself. It must come from above.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:23 am #
Hi Dave Z,
Yes apologetics helps strengthen faith that Bible is accurate. But apologetics needs to be in line with the Word of God. With term apologetics we can have “anything goes” attitude.
Eevery thing needs to be checked if it aligns with the Word of God or not.
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:26 am #
I guess John the Baptist was an agent of Satan as he illustrated this doubt?
“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (Mat 11:11 NAU)
“Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?” [is John doubting here?]
20 When the men came to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, to ask, ‘Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?’”
21 At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind.
22 And He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.
23 “Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”
(Luk 7:19-23 NAU)
Jesus had to help John in his doubt here by giving evidence. Often, we need the same in our doubt.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:37 am #
Vinod,
I’m not asking what the purpose was. I’m asking, “What do you think CMP said?” How would you put his basic thesis in your own words?
Are you willing to answer that question?
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:38 am #
Vinod,
In the meantime, I noticed your reply to Lisa:
In other words, you think she was saying, “It’s not important to increase our faith”?
(By the way, I’m at least in partial agreement with you. Still trying to figure out what entirely you’re trying to say, though.)
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:40 am #
When I read Verse 23 “Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.” I take it as a rebuke to John the Baptist.
It looks he is offended by some thing Jesus said or did.
Mat 11:2 And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples
So may be something he heard made him doubt and Jesus is setting the record straight when He said go and tell what you hear and see.
Tells me that John may have received a different report thn the actual report so Jesus is asking them give the correct report.
So yes John’s doubt was wrong and he needed to listen to the right things about Jesus.
steve martin on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:45 am #
“So yes John’s doubt was wrong and he needed to listen to the right things about Jesus.”
All of our doubts about Jesus (God) are wrong, and they condemn us.
Our doubts are proof that we are sinners in need of a Savior.
Joshua on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:46 am #
I guess one more question then Vinod.
Does my intial faith come from myself or God?
If it comes from God how and why in the world would I expect any additional faith (even though there is no real way to quantify having “more faith” unless you can buy a “faith meter” on TBN; which I wouldn’t be suprised if you could) to come from yourself?
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:49 am #
Hi Jugulum,
you wrote: In other words, you think she was saying, “It’s not important to increase our faith”?
she is not saying it in her question but I am making a guess that her intention of the question is pointing toward that direction.
“ability to have faith” is a compliment to object of faith “God”. when you elevate “ability to have faith” as object of faith then you create a perception that it is contrary to another object of faith “God”. So you create a competition between those two object of faith in which one is just an assumed object of faith.
While reality is that “ability to have faith” is the essential ingredient to have faith in the object of faith “God”. They don’t contradict instead they compliment. You can’t have faith if either of them is missing.
Leslie on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:57 am #
“… ‘faith meter’ on TBN …” LOL
There is a thick block of ice all over, and I could walk on it pretty well, even if my faith is feeble. That’s because the object of my faith is strong. Then there is a thin sheet of ice all over, and I need to walk across. Even if I have all the faith in the world that that would carry me, I would definitely sink, simply because the object is truly feeble.
It’s not the amount of our faith that matters, but it’s object, God-Jesus. BUT, the Jesus I mention here is the Biblical One. Not the Jesus who is “too safe”!
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:00 pm #
Hi Joshua,
you asked: Does my intial faith come from myself or God?
It comes from Word of God when I begin to hear it more and more. Unless one hear the Word they don’t have faith in God. They can try to believe in something they call “god” but that God will not be God of Bible.
Every body has faith in something. That faith has developed through what they heard and what they saw. A child learns to walk on two legs by faith becaus he heard from parents that he can do it. If he didn’t have faith that his legs can hold him he will never try.
Let me quote another statement/illustration that Billy Graham uses often.
“Now this looks like a good platform.” Billy Graham shook the railing. “I believe if it’s a well-built platform.” He put his foot, tentatively, on the step. “But I have to step on it before I know. I have to trust this platform enough to try it. You may think that Christ is all the Bible says He is. But you’ll never know until you decide to try Him.
It is your and my decision to put our trust on the Word of God. It is your and my responsibility to grow in faith.
Joshua Allen on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:01 pm #
@Dr_Mike: Thanks for that description; I think that normalizes doubt for me, too.
@Vinod: You seem to be arguing against a straw man, as if Michael or anyone else said that doubt is equally as desirable as faith.
And responding to people who have doubts with your response (“You are going to hell if you have any doubts, so just believe harder!”) is utterly unscriptural. In fact, it is exactly what the devil says to people. Christ leads people from doubt toward greater faith; the devil accuses people of not having faith.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:08 pm #
Vinod,
While I’m waiting for your reply to my question about what you think CMP was saying:
OK, so, Lisa: Vinod thinks this is where you’re coming from. He think you’re defending a position that “It’s not important to increase our faith”.
(And Vinod… Do you think that was what Michael was saying, too? That it’s not important to increase our faith?)
Is that what you think? Or is he just misunderstanding you?
I agree, though your last sentence is off. (You can have faith in aliens, even aliens don’t exist. I think you meant, “You can’t have saving faith if either of them is missing.” Because if God’s not there, faith won’t save. And if you’re unable to have faith, God won’t save you.)
They don’t contradict, and they should be complimentary, but that doesn’t mean Lisa’s question is meaningless. There are many people who have faith in “faith”. Their faith isn’t directed at God, it’s directed at a supposedly inherent power in faith itself. (That said… I don’t know why Lisa asked the question. I don’t know why she thought you might be making that mistake.)
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:11 pm #
Lisa,
We both agree that object of faith is Jesus. Problem we have is with quantity of faith.
Lisa you missed the point in your own analogy. You just missed it that it does matter that how much faith you have. You are not going to step on the ice if you don’t have faith how ever firm the ice may be.
So your faith on the ice that it will hold is the key. If you have enough faith on Jesus you will act on what He said. If you doubt on Him you will not give full control of a situation in His hand.
If you didn’t believe that Jesus saves from sin you would not have acted and prayed to Him to save you from sin.
If you don’t believe that Jesus heals you will not act and ask Lord to heal.
If you don’t believe that if you have faith like a mustard seed and can ask mountain to move, you will never ask for it.
You will not even try to do something. You will not even put your foot on the ice.
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:16 pm #
“So your faith on the ice that it will hold is the key.”
Exactly, therefore, if you have 51% faith and 49% doubt you will step out on to the ice!
Some people can have greater confidence when they are flying on an airplane that it will not crash. Others are not quite as confident and have a lot of fear. However, what demonstrates the faith is whether or not one gets on the airplane. If you are on the plane, you are of the faith!!
Am I missing something?
Leslie on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:16 pm #
Again, the object of our faith could well be Jesus, but not truly Jesus. It could our caricature of him, which is a huge error!
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:23 pm #
Hi Jugulum,
Yes you are correct. I did mean saving faith and also faith on everything Bible talks about. Jesus doesn’t only save, He also heals, guides, protects and so many things. For everything you need both amount of faith and object of faith “God”.
Let me say again. Jesus talks about faith and CMP talks about doubt. They are both contradicting each other.
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:25 pm #
Vinod,
Now I am curious if you even read the post? I am with Jug, can you tell us what I was trying to say here in the blog post?
(if you get it wrong, I can quickly clarify and throw water on the fire here)
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:27 pm #
Vinod,
It would really help me to understand if you would answer my question. What do you think CMP said about doubt? How would you put his point in your own words?
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:33 pm #
Hi Jugulum,
You wrote: There are many people who have faith in “faith”. Their faith isn’t directed at God, it’s directed at a supposedly inherent power in faith itself.
To have faith you need to have faith in faith other wise you will not try to accuire faith.
When desciples asked
Luke 17:5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
I am glad that Jesus didn’t tell them that you should not put your faith on faith instead put faith on Me.
Why is it that I keep hearing on “faith” on “faith” problem?
Jesus never had any problem with people putting ephesis on faith.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Now if you read Heb 11:6 you need to trust first that Heb 11:6 is Word of God. Then you will have to trust faith. Because to me it looks writer of Heb had full faith that faith works. Then you have to have faith that God exists. Then you have to have faith that God is rewarder.
So having faith on faith is again not competitor of faith in God. These are the terms people have defined because they could not believe Bible verses like Heb 11:6. These phrases are just brain washing methods.
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:37 pm #
Vinod, answer Jugs question or we cannot go any further with this. You seem to be misunderstanding everything and avoiding people’s recognition and attempts to move this post in a productive direction. It is bordering on becoming a sinful waste of time for many people because of your apparent misunderstanding.
This blog must stay focused and productive.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:44 pm #
I posted a clarifying reply to Vinod’s last comment–because he misunderstood what I meant by “faith in faith”–but I’m editing this comment after seeing CMP’s. I don’t want to distract from waiting for an answer.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:46 pm #
ok since so many question on what I understand from article. Here I go.
CMP wrote:
I don’t believe that this is wrong. Let me step back and rephrase. In a fallen world with fallen people—and Christians who are still battling the flesh—should we expect anything else? Do you really believe that once you become a Christian doubt is no longer a foe? So it is wrong only in the sense that living in a fallen world is wrong. It is bad to the degree that being a resurrection short of full redemption is bad.
Isn’t he saying that it is ok to have doubt? Difference here is when Jesus sees doubt he rebukes.
Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”
Jesus is calling them perverse who are faithless.
Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.”
Jesus is taking that word perverse right from Deu 32:20
Deu 32:20 And He said: ‘I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end will be, For they are a perverse generation, Children in whom is no faith.
My question is are all in this discussion board blind that they don’t see the difference?
CMP is in total contradiction of what Jesus said and believed. I wish when people came with doubt he had told them to read the Word and try to increase their faith.
People who came began to doubt in God’s existence because probably they didn’t read the Word from long time. The more you read the Word of God and meditate it helps. The more you listen to outside world it tries to take away faith.
Today many people don’t read Bible instead they read book written on Bible. All they get from there is also unbelief.
Leslie on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:49 pm #
Hey Vinod: Is it too difficult for you to give a synopsis of CMP’s post? Hope you understand that unless you clarify YOUR understanding of the post, the rest of the conversation is surely point-less.
Lisa Robinson on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:49 pm #
Vinod says
“she is not saying it in her question but I am making a guess that her intention of the question is pointing toward that direction.”
First, I am fully impressed that you understand my intention is as you described based on the words I used. You not only have full faith but full understanding. However, based on Jugulum’s question here:
OK, so, Lisa: Vinod thinks this is where you’re coming from. He think you’re defending a position that “It’s not important to increase our faith”.
That is not what I am defending. Somehow Vinod, you are imposing your theology upon my words and that is dangerous. It seems you are doing the same to the Biblical text. My issue is as Jugulum indicates -”There are many people who have faith in “faith”. Their faith isn’t directed at God, it’s directed at a supposedly inherent power in faith itself.”
And that, I believe is supported by your statement here, Vinod:
“So your faith on the ice that it will hold is the key. If you have enough faith on Jesus you will act on what He said. If you doubt on Him you will not give full control of a situation in His hand.”
I don’t have full control of the situation, God does. He is the object of faith not my words or the ability to have faith. My faith is apportioned as a gift from Him. He will work all things according to the counsel of his will (Eph 1:11). This points to the fallacy of your argument, that outcomes are dependent upon us and the amount of faith that we have.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:52 pm #
Vinod,
So… You posted a comment with a lot more response to CMP’s post. But the actual answer to my question seems to be this:
I asked, “What do you think CMP said about doubt?”
Your answer is, “It is ok to have doubt.” Right? That’s what you think he was saying?
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:57 pm #
Hi Jugulum,
Here is a clear answer to your question.
Is it something like this? “It’s OK to doubt–if you find yourself doubting, that’s not a problem to be fixed. It’s just the way things are. It’s fine to stay that way.”
As I mentioned in last post yes that is what he says that “it is ok to doubt”
The paragraph I quoted in last post says is clearly.
“I don’t believe that this is wrong.” that is CMP talking about doubt.
Then he goes on saying 49% unbelief is ok as long as you have 51% faith.
That’s what he is saying. And he gives a reason that it is because we live in fallen world.
If his anology is correct then it is ok to sin 49% of time and live holy 51% of time. Why guard our lives in holiness?
Leslie on 22 Jul 2009 at 12:58 pm #
Hey Vinod: Is it that hard for you to understand that you are asked for a synopsis of YOUR understanding of CMP’s post!? Man!!
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:02 pm #
Hi Lisa,
You wrote:
I don’t have full control of the situation, God does. He is the object of faith not my words or the ability to have faith. My faith is apportioned as a gift from Him. He will work all things according to the counsel of his will (Eph 1:11). This points to the fallacy of your argument, that outcomes are dependent upon us and the amount of faith that we have.
If you don’t have a control then Jesus is wrong every time He is rebuking people saying “O you of little faith”. Instead He should have rebuked himself that He is not doing His job correctly.
So I am not sure if your assumption really aligns with Jesus. Jesus is asking people to have faith and you seems to be putting everythig on God.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:03 pm #
Leslie,
Actually, his last comment seems to answer the question. Yeah, he used my suggested synopsis, but that’s fine. (Also… Based on the time stamps, you might have started writing your comment before he posted #77. So maybe you were objecting to #73.)
Also, I think we should all let CMP respond to Vinod’s synopsis, before we jump in.
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:08 pm #
Now I can step in an correct, and also say that you must not have read the post or simply interpreted it according a a reader response model (it means what I want it to mean!)
You said:
“CMP said, I don’t believe that this is wrong.” But you ended there. The next sentence says, “Let me step back and rephrase. In a fallen world with fallen people—and Christians who are still battling the flesh—should we expect anything else?” (Emphasis added.)
In literature, it is common for the author to expand or rephrase a thought that they believe will be misunderstood otherwise. Therefore, out of common curtiously, I would appreciate you understanding my post as a whole, not one sentence.
I go on:
“Do you really believe that once you become a Christian doubt is no longer a foe? So it is wrong only in the sense that living in a fallen world is wrong. It is bad to the degree that being a resurrection short of full redemption is bad.”
Notice, it is wrong in the sense that living in a fallen world is wrong. It is bad to the degree that we are still fallen. Is it bad? yes. Is it wrong, yes. Is your misunderstanding this post wrong? Yes. Is it bad? Yes. But such is the world of the fall. Our conversations are affected. Our hair is affected. Our wills are affected.
My post is about helping people who struggle and doubt understand that this is part of a fallen world and is common to all, including yourself (I am assuming your faith is lacking —i.e. it can grow).
Hope this clarifies.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:10 pm #
Vinod,
And here’s the comment that I deleted–#72.
Vinod, I was talking about people who have a generic kind of spirituality–who say, “The important thing is to have faith,” but who don’t care whether it’s faith in the God of the Bible or faith in the power of crystals or faith in themselves.
That’s what I meant by “faith in faith”. When the disciples prayed for more faith, they were praying for faith in God & his promises. That’s not “faith in faith” in the sense I meant–that’s “faith that God will work in response to faith”.
I long for more faith in my life, because I know that God works in response to faith. I know that faith matters. (I do have faith, but it’s imperfect faith. So I want more. I want faith in increase.) But that’s not because I think that I will accomplish something by the inherent power of my faith. My faith will result in something happening–because God will exercise his power. It’s based on his graciousness in deciding to respond to our faith. Our faith is faith that God will act according to his promises.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:11 pm #
Vinod,
I’m going to ask CMP a clarifying question. You might want to wait for that, and get his answer, before you respond.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:11 pm #
CMP I understood you correctly. You are still saying the exactly the same thing.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:18 pm #
BTW CMP seems to have obtained faith meter from TBN to measure 51% and 49%. I should get one too. LOL
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:22 pm #
Let me put this in a context that might help:
If some one was completely distrought over their sin. They could not believe that they were a sinner and beat themselves up over it every day. They came to you and said, “I cannot quit sinning. I am selfish, angry, I don’t trust God enough, I don’t give everything to others, I oversleep, overeat, and am plagued because I am not able to be sociable with people. I am unable to do anything because of this guilt.”
Would you come to them and say, “OK, you should either quit sinning all together or stay in your paralizing guilt.”
Or would you first explain to them that sin is common in our fallen world. This does not make it right, but you need to understand that this is who we are and take courage. This is why Christ came.”
Would this be saying that the sin is right? Well, according to how you are wanting to take this issue with doubt, yes! But is it saying that there is an ontological quality to sin and doubt that is positive—no!!!
Sin, doubt, greif, and pain are part of the world we live in. It is part of our burden until Christ comes. This does not say that doubt is good, but that it is normal as everyone has it (including you!).
That is all the post is trying to do. Give perspective on doubt. If you think I am trying to encourage doubt (which is what you are saying), you are simply following your own passions, not mine.
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:24 pm #
Vinod, ad homs and guilt by association at this point really don’t do anything for the understanding of the issue.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:32 pm #
CMP,
So, Michael, when you talk about “doubt”, you mean “the imperfection in our faith”.
Maybe that’s a good definition of doubt, maybe it isn’t. But I’m pretty sure Vinod’s still going to stop at that word, and not understand you. So let me try rephrasing your point without the word “doubt”, and you tell me if I captured it.
You’re saying that to be a Christian, we must have faith–in God, in Christ, in God’s promises, etc. If we are without faith, we’re not followers of Christ. We must have enough faith to act on it. Like the ice example–we have to have enough faith to step out on the ice.
But even if we have enough to step out on the ice, we might have more room to grow. Our faith might be imperfect. We might need an increase of faith. And it’s always important for us to seek more faith. We should never be complacent about imperfect faith.
There is something wrong with having imperfect faith, just like there’s something wrong with sinning as a Christian. Both are part of our struggle with our flesh.
But it’s important for Christians to know that the struggle with the flesh is expected. If you sin as a Christian, it’s terrible to be complacent about it–but it shouldn’t make you say, “I must not be a Christian.” Similarly, if you have imperfect faith, it’s terrible to be complacent about it–but it doesn’t mean you have no faith.
It’s not “OK” to have only 51% faith–but 51% faith is still enough faith to step out onto the ice.
Marvin the Martian on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:35 pm #
Michael,
I just want to say to not be discouraged by Saint Vinod. Your willingness to be real and authentic (in both your triumphs and struggles) is what we who follow you on a regular basis LOVE about you. Your patience in dealing with dissenters is Job-like, I wish I could be more like you.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:36 pm #
Vinod: Do you basically agree with what I just wrote?
Ignore whether or not you think that’s what CMP said. Do you basically agree with what I wrote? I realize you might want to tweak it a bit–but do you think I’m close to being right? Or do you think that when I said it, I’m being a tool of Satan?
CMP: Did I restate your point well?
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:36 pm #
Hi CMP,
you wrote: They came to you and said, “I cannot quit sinning. I am selfish, angry, I don’t trust God enough, I don’t give everything to others, I oversleep, overeat, and am plagued because I am not able to be sociable with people. I am unable to do anything because of this guilt.”
You don’t justify it by saying that people live in sinful world so it is ok. When people saw Jim Baker fall in sin they condemned his action and it was right. Billiy Graham embraced him back in to believers community that was also right.
But you do it by encouraging the person to put their trust back in the Lord and ask the Lord to help them out.
You don’t do it by taking away the gravity of sin and disbelief.
Your article seems to take away the gravity and is trying to say it is ok to doubt.
Take a look at your statement
“Do Christians doubt? Of course we do. But this does not mean we don’t believe.”
doubt is unbelief they don’t go togather. All the verses I quoted are clear that doubt is unbelief. When doubt arises people need to go back to the Word of God and strengthen their faith.
Words of a preacher or minister may help a little but only thing that will really help is Word of God.
Psa 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You!
When a person is in a situation you described probably he doesn’t have will power to take the Bible and read themselves so you can sit with that person and read the Word for them.
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:38 pm #
Perfect
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:41 pm #
Jugulum,
I completely agree with your post.
Lisa Robinson on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:43 pm #
Vinod,
When Jesus speaks of faith in the gospels, he is speaking towards the ability of His disciples to believe in Him, meaning believe in who He is as God incarnate. We have to also consider Jesus’ statements in context of his redemptive purpose and in correlation to the whole counsel of Scripture, which btw, point to the fact that we are not in control. If we are, we have invalidated much of the New Testament letters as well as all Old Testament history.
So our faith must have an object and that is in God and His promises. To say that it is all God with responsiblity on our part is not what the point of what I was getting at. But we believe in Him and not our ability.
You would do well to understand some basic Bible study methods that will help understand the layout of the Bible and how to read passages in their proper context. I say this because of the way you are reading the gospels in particularly. This is not a slight but an encouragement. The worst thing we can do is impose words and positions upon God that He has not intended. And that does start with having a teachable Spirit. We are afterall, fallible beings and capable of getting much wrong.
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:47 pm #
OK, I understand where you are coming from. You do understand that I am not saying doubt is good. That is important. I am not comfortable with your belief that I am saying that doubt is “OK” (at least in the way you are nuancing it).
Let me add this to end (hopefully) this current movement in the post:
While doubt is a common plight of all Christians, we should all seek to grow in our faith. God can and will help us to overcome doubt, but it will not be fully realized until the resurrection.
(Yeah, like that will stop it!!—but I try anyway.)
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:49 pm #
Vinod,
So, notice something. CMP said that I perfectly summarized his point. And you said that you completely agree with it.
So, the problem is one of misunderstanding. Now, maybe that’s happening because CMP expressed himself poorly, and maybe it’s because you’re just failing to exegete his words well.
But you need to start being aware that the problem is with how to express ourselves, not with what we’re all trying to say about belief & imperfect belief in the life of a Christian. (Mostly, at least. We might all have some differences, but we seem to largely agree.)
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:52 pm #
Lisa,
You wrote:
You would do well to understand some basic Bible study methods that will help understand the layout of the Bible and how to read passages in their proper context.
You want me to get brain washed like you? No way. he he he
Lisa we obtain Salvation by faith. And we are responsible for that faith God is not.
It is we who take decision to come to Jesus or not. God is not going to do that decision for us.
What God has asked us to do we have to do. God is not going to to them for us.
When Jesus is rebuking saying, “O you of little faith”. That is very clear that it’s our responsibility. And we take one step forward and ask the Lord to help us with our faith he will because He is author and finisher of our faith.
Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:57 pm #
Hi Michael,
I understand that your intention was to convey that doubt is not ok but you some how ended up justifying doubt. So yes you need to rephrase your article.
Yes, the paragraph you intent to add may help clarify the meaning.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 1:59 pm #
CMP,
Two things.
1.) I’m not sure that you’re using the word “doubt” correctly. It’s hard to say. The “51% faith and 49% doubt” thing… I’m not sure if doubt is identical to “the imperfection in our belief”. Maybe doubt is more active than that.
Maybe it’s not faith unless it’s strong enough to get us to step on the ice. And maybe it’s not doubt unless it’s strong enough to stop us.
At least, I think that’s how people often think about those words. (Honestly, I’m puzzled about how to define “doubt” precisely, biblically.) So… You’re probably going to run into this kind of misunderstanding.
2.) As practical matter… It might be good to avoid uttering the words “It’s OK to doubt” at all, even if you immediately clarify–because it’s almost guaranteed to be misunderstood. Maybe stick with “It’s expected, and it’s not as bad as you fear. Struggle with doubt doesn’t mean that you don’t believe–it means that your belief is imperfect.”
If only because we’re guaranteed to run into bad listeners.
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 2:00 pm #
Hi Jugulum,
You seem to be a great negotiator. I was not suppose to compromise but how did I end up compromising and falling in the trap? LOL
Anyway thank you for bringing that clarification.
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 2:24 pm #
Vinod,
You’re welcome.
I’m not a good negotiator, I’m a good listener. And I’m good at detecting how one person is misunderstanding another, and at how to rephrase the idea to avoid it. Even when someone resists the clarification. As long as I can restrain my fleshly tendency to get snarky, anyway.
Chris Skiles on 22 Jul 2009 at 3:05 pm #
Have we fully beaten this dead horse?
We can only hope.
Great post CMP. I fully agree.
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 3:16 pm #
Horse is dead!
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 3:28 pm #
Ironically, I am rather surprised that there has not been more disagreement with this post than there has! There are many people out there who believe that belief is black and white.
Wm Tanksley on 22 Jul 2009 at 3:31 pm #
“We also have to remember that the opposite of faith isn’t doubt, but knowledge.”
Can you support that Biblically? It seems to me to be wildly unlikely, at best.
-Wm
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 3:41 pm #
Wm yes biblically that statement is wrong. In all the verses Jesus spoke about doubt he was clear that opposite of faith was doubt.
Wm Tanksley on 22 Jul 2009 at 3:49 pm #
“That is all the post is trying to do. Give perspective on doubt.”
Wow, what a great point (I’m referring to the rest of your comment — what I’m quoting hardly does it justice).
To use this same advice in a different context, if someone came to me grieving over some sin (as opposed to grieving over their doubt), I hope I’d check to make sure they knew about the Gospel, check to make sure they accepted it, and then point out that they were doing exactly what God prescribed!
Sin — and lack of faith — and doubt — are things to be grieved over. We should thank God for His Spirit convicting us of them, and ask for more conviction in appropriate ways, all while remembering that although we are saved through faith, we are not saved BY faith; the amount of our faith does not determine how much of us is saved. God does the saving.
Of course, I guess I should mention that some grieving is an attack of Satan, but that’s a distinct issue — and anyhow, the appropriate response is much the same.
Thanks for that comment, CMP.
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 22 Jul 2009 at 4:00 pm #
“Point of what Jesus said is if you don’t have faith you need to increase it.”
Where did Christ, or any other Biblical author, say anything about someone needing to increase their faith? Or even know how much of it they have? I don’t see that.
What I see is that having faith is good; not having it is bad. Having a lot is a gift of God; having a little means you can command mountains to move and they will (which doesn’t seem like a bad thing).
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 22 Jul 2009 at 4:05 pm #
Sorry, I should have responded to this.
Why do you assert that? The Bible doesn’t say that the disciples had more after hearing that! In fact, what Christ actually said was that having a tiny, tiny amount of faith was _enough_ to accomplish more than any human had ever expected to accomplish.
It _sounds_ like Christ was telling them that they didn’t need to ask for _more_ faith; they needed to ask for _faith_.
But this doesn’t say that faith increases; it says that it comes. The context is very clearly speaking of salvation, not of increasing one’s faithfulness status. And salvation is unmistakably an all-or-nothing thing.
-Wm
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 4:11 pm #
Wm Tanksley and Vinod,
I agree. Faith isn’t the opposite of knowledge. That comes from the “faith==blind faith” perspective, which I disagree with.
Tiffany was right that one day we won’t walk by faith, but I think that has more to do with, “The promises of God will have been delivered.”
C Michael Patton on 22 Jul 2009 at 4:16 pm #
Well put Jug.
(Can you believe that I am actually keeping up with the comments?! It has been months, but this has been interesting.)
Jugulum on 22 Jul 2009 at 4:34 pm #
What’s that? The comment thread feels like it’s gone on for months?
Vinod Isaac on 22 Jul 2009 at 5:56 pm #
Hi Wm,
you said; Where did Christ, or any other Biblical author, say anything about someone needing to increase their faith? Or even know how much of it they have? I don’t see that.
Here is the answer.
I already gave reference for “little faith”
Jesus talks about great faith.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!
Well what Jesus called great faith in Mat 8:10 many of you call it false faith to gain worldly or temperory things.
Again Jesus says of great faith
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Jesus talks about no faith
Mark 4:40 But He said to them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?”
So “no faith”, “little faith”, “great faith” every thing tells me that God has messure for faith. And he is rebuking his disciples time and again that where is their faith?
The mustard seed thing also is about quantity and some people have twisted it to mean differently.
Read
Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.”
Look at Word “faithless”
Then Read
Mat 17:20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
Do you see word “unbelief”?
So Jesus was saying that they have “no faith” they need to grow to “mustard seed” faith level.
Compare it with another mustard seed example. That tells you clearly that Jesus means quantity when He says mustard seed.
Mat 13:31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,
Mat 13:32 “which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”
Mustard seed is small and when it grows it becomes greater than the herbs. Same way faith needs to grow. First it may be small then it needs to grow constantly.
Apostate2000 on 22 Jul 2009 at 6:23 pm #
I have found doubt to be a very positive thing.
If it was not for the doubts I had about mormonism I would have never questioned, never studied, never left, and never met the real Jesus.
Doubt is what we as Christians must encourage in non-believers in order to help them see the truth.
Doubt can also be a positive thing within the church. It causes or rather prevents one from becoming prideful in their beliefs. A little humility goes a long way in just having a conversation with somebody.
All this is not to say that doubt is not painful, but wrestling with doubt, or getting to the bottom of it, is great.–I hope.
Leslie on 22 Jul 2009 at 11:14 pm #
Lisa:
I am sure you should have shaken your head in unbelief reading Vinod’s comment in response to your encouragment for him learn to start reading the Bible correctly.
He does not start want to get brainwashed like you! Man!!
CMP:
I imagine you were a little jarred initially, reading such stupid statements! You should be recovering now.
Jug:
You tried your best to inject some sense into our brother! Maybe some day it will sprout!
Jason C on 23 Jul 2009 at 1:09 am #
I can say, as someone who now knows a lot more than I did twenty years ago, that growth in knowledge is an effective antidote for doubt. However there are some things that cannot be known.
I can know, based on the historical record, that Jesus rose from the dead. I can see that the resurrection provides the confirmation, and fulfilment of much of the theological teachings that Jesus expounded on. However these things don’t provide proof that God is specifically concerned with me. As part of the human race, yes, as an individual… not so much.
To those disciples who knew Jesus face to face, doubt was still possible (as in the case of Thomas) how much more so we who live 2000 years removed from his face.
j on 23 Jul 2009 at 3:43 am #
Well, this has been hashed out. I like posts 16, 45, and 116 best I think. I also liked the early one by Vance.
#16 has some very penetrating questions in my view. ones that I deal with when I doubt. In answer to ministering to others while doubting, it is really tough to find the right way. to be mostly convinced that by encouraging them to faith you are lying to them is a real burden. but you might be able to refer people to appropriate books (even though you would doubt the book if you read it); and even better, you may be able to envision the development of your faith through doubting. in doubting you are of course envisioning unbelief, but you’re also trying to envision a future faith for yourself. how do you envision that your faith will need to develop to deal with your doubt? can you cast that vision of faith for yourself and for those you’re ministering to?
that’s my attempt at advice. more importantly, my prayers are for you.
rayner markley on 23 Jul 2009 at 7:08 am #
Is there some truth to the idea that people who don’t doubt are people who don’t think? It’s sometimes said that Christians, and true believers generally, believe blindly. People who just accept what they are taught are free from doubt. They could be nominal Christians who are born into a Christian family and just follow along. Jesus may have been talking about that when He said that the kingdom of heaven is populated with folks who are like children.
But for those who want to give reasons for their belief, doubt and skepticism seem to be necessary. If we follow Descartes, doubt is a form of thought that leads to evidence and that knowledge supports faith. Reasons are formulated because of doubts, and thus faith acquires conscious supports. Ironically, it may be that in trying to ‘reclaim the mind’ we are utilizing doubts or even raising doubts among Christians.
Vinod Isaac on 23 Jul 2009 at 8:01 am #
Hi rayner,
Doubt/disbelif in God is not positive, however you try to put it. Doubt in our own understanding of God is healthy. The more we check our ways and see something doesn’t seem to work the more we try to find answers for them.
The more we read the Word of God (I mean directly not through the brain washing methods Lisa suggested. Because God speaks through His Word and He doesn’t need a mediator.). The more it gets clearer.
Vinod Isaac on 23 Jul 2009 at 8:05 am #
Leslie,
I still believe the article, the way it is written, contradicts the Word of God and specially the Words of Jesus.
Jesus was never satisfied with little or no faith. He wanted His desciples to have great faith.
Throughout article in several places it contradicts Jesus’ position on faith. I just stopped because I found the intentions of author were ok and I didn’t want to create a mess on somebody’s blog.
Leslie on 23 Jul 2009 at 8:11 am #
Vinod:
I am so sorry for you that you’re so unable to grasp what CMP wanted us to understand!
Lisa Robinson on 23 Jul 2009 at 8:24 am #
Vinod,
Exactly what “brainwashing” methods to you think I am proposing? Brainwashing on how to read the Bible? Well, maybe its because God breathed out his word through the pens of men, 40 of them to be exact, and within the span of 1,500 years. So God has something in mind to convey to us as the little authors are recording under the inspiration of the Spirit in accordance with the literary style and customs of the time. There are folks who have gone before to help guide us how to navigate these 66 books to understand what God is trying to communicate by looking at how all the books fit together and what particular style they were written in. Things have to be understood in their proper context. Ripping passages out of context might be an insult to what God is trying to communicate, don’t you think?
See I am not so arrogant to think that I know everything and do benefit from the instruction of others. It’s called learning in community and teachers are needed. Maybe you know all there is to know but the rest of us need a little help. Humility before God demands such and I fear Him enough not to be too convinced of my own opinions. So Vinod if that is brainwashing to you then consider me brainwashed.
God Bless
rayner markley on 23 Jul 2009 at 8:40 am #
Vinod,
Doubt and skepticism are not positive in themselves, but they are part of the process of establishing conscious faith. Of course, they may lead to unbelief as well. That’s a risk, and it’s the risk that Adam took. By conscious faith I mean faith that we give reasons in support of. The alternative is blind or subconscious faith.
Wm Tanksley on 23 Jul 2009 at 10:02 am #
Okay, Let’s look at these.
Okay, how is this supposed to be a command to measure or increase our level of faith? It’s not — it’s a praising observation that this man has great faith. It’s not telling us that this man built his faith within himself, and it’s not telling us that he knows he’s got great faith.
Exact same problem: Jesus isn’t saying that we should measure and/or increase our faith.
Critical point: this is saying that having NO faith is bad. It’s not talking about increasing or monitoring one’s own faith level.
Definitely. And Jesus can read that measure off; so it’s possible that we can do it as well.
Indeed. Zero faith. Same comments.
No he’s not; he’s saying that IF they had faith nothing would be impossible for them; but they don’t. He didn’t say they needed to grow faith.
Have you heard the term “eisegesis”? Look it up. In every case we’ve looked at, you bring your assumptions about faith into the text, forcing it to mean what you wanted it to mean, regardless of what it actually says.
Now, take a look at James. He points out that people who claim to measure their quantity of faith can be deceived if they attempt to measure by any means other than looking at their works. So if you want more faith (which seems like a good thing), you should worry not about your faith, but about your works. You should think of Phil 2:12-13 — the works you’re doing are God working within you, both to do them and even to WANT to do them. This fits and explains how Christ knew about the faith of those people.
And you know what? This means that increasing your faith doesn’t start by reducing your doubt. And knowing your faith doesn’t mean seeing how much you doubt…
Wm Tanksley on 23 Jul 2009 at 10:07 am #
FYI, in the last message, I got cut off right at the end of my last sentence. So no need to post a sequel.
-Wm
Dave Z on 23 Jul 2009 at 11:06 am #
Vinod,
Paul points out that faith is a gift (1 Cor 12:7-11) which GOD gives as HE determines. So people have as much faith as God gives them. No more, no less. So if God does not completely fill them with faith, they have room for doubt.
Vinod Isaac on 23 Jul 2009 at 8:57 pm #
Lisa,
40 people writing in span of 1500 years. Recording under the inspiration of Holy Spirit. Upto it is good.
I disagree with the statement “accordance with the literary style and customs”. Because God is not bound by style and customs. God has revealed so many things in the Word that the writers had absolutely no clue what they are writing.
Trouble starts with “the folks who have gone before to help guide us how to navigate these 66 books”
How many of them are really inspired by the Holy Spirit we do not know. We do not know if they are trying to discern the Word of God from their mind or with the help of Holy Spirit. Word of God are not discened by a natural man.
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Yes context is important and it is important that we need to understand what that verse really says. But most of the time context is used to change the meaning.
It is not arrogance to go back and check in the Word of God if what is being said aligns with the Word or not. You don’t believe without first checking what the Word of God says.
What I am doing is not ripping the verse out of context. If that was the case you could have given the context easily to correct me but you have not done that. You didn’t show me lexicons or anything that will tell that I am using verse out of context.
Now you see the effect of brainwashing on CMP’s article clearly.
I will give an example.
Mat 21:21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.
If you read the above verse without brain washing. You will conclude that you need faith 100% and doubt 0%. And believe me in all the bible you will not find a verse that contradicts 100% and 0% thing. But look at the article 51% faith and 49% unbelief. From where does it come? from brainwashing. And most people reading here have gone through same brainwashing that’s why they can’t see a difference.
Only Jugulum came close. Where he said
“There is something wrong with having imperfect faith, just like there’s something wrong with sinning as a Christian. Both are part of our struggle with our flesh.”
I hope I am clear enough.
Vinod Isaac on 23 Jul 2009 at 9:18 pm #
Hi Wm,
Many of the verses that I quoted were to show that there is different messures of faith. So that was answer to your question: “Or even know how much of it they have?”
If you had not snipped out the last portion of my reply and had paid close attention to mustard seed parable about kingdom you could have understood that Jesus is talking about growth of faith like mustard seed it is small and when it grows it outgrows other trees.
Remember when Jesus said about mustard seed, Jesus was answering to question of “Increase our faith”. If that question was wrong Jesus would have corrected them by saying you don’t need to increase you need to have faith. Jesus didn’t do it because Jesus knew faith increases.
Luke 17:5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
But because you didn’t read it with context I think I need to give you specific verses that says that our faith grows and it needs to grow.
2 Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other,
2 Cor 8:7 But as you abound in everything; in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all diligence, and in your love for us; see that you abound in this grace also.
Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
Only other reference in the Bible about praying in Holy Spirit is about tongues. I don’t know if you believe that Jude 1:20 is inspired or not but this verse tells speaking in tongues increases faith.
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Cor 14:4 “He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself ….”
Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
Vinod Isaac on 23 Jul 2009 at 9:33 pm #
Hi Dave Z,
1 Cor 12:7-11 talks about gifts of Holy Spirit. Gift of faith mentioned there is entirely different thing. That gift is not given to every one. The faith I am talking about is the faith that we all have a responsibility to excercise in our lives.
Leslie on 23 Jul 2009 at 10:39 pm #
Vinod:
I am sorry for being so candid, but your pride is so nauseating. Somebody said, pride is like bad breath; the person with it is unaware of it, but everybody around him/her knows!
For your information, God simply did not dictate to the Bible authors. He used the the human personality, his customs, his literary style to get His message across. And if that is the case, how does an average person today understand the context of the the text. Obviously he/she HAS to depend on those that has the time and effort to dig into the past. And of course, it takes humility to learn from others. And proud Christians, who want to go solo, miss out on the true truth. In the process, he/she becomes so deceived, that they are go past correction from his brethren in the Church. Sad!
Dave Z on 24 Jul 2009 at 12:06 am #
So exactly, what is the difference between gift faith and “faith that we all have a responsibility to excercise in our lives.” Isn’t faith simply trusting, obeying and following God? If you say there are two different kinds of faith, (we can call them “gift faith” and “responsibility faith”) prove it clearly from scripture.
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 7:35 am #
Leslie,
I see arrogance and pride on the you and Lisa. You guys are so proud of your seminary education that you can’t see the truth from the Word of God.
All I am trying to do is put Word of God over everything else and you guys are trying to put your doctrine, your theology, your seminary education above the Word of God.
Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.
If you meditate on the law of the Lord day and night. You will speak from the Word not from your own intellect.
Correct definition of humbleness is a person humbles himself before the Lord not before humans. You and I need to listen to what Lord is saying not what scholors are saying.
I am really surprised that there is no discussion on the Word of God. You didn’t give me anything from Word to tell me that I am wrong. Still you claim to be truthful.
If I am wrong show me from the Bible. If you can’t show then acknowledge that you are not following the Word of God. And if you are not following the Word you need to start doing it.
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 7:52 am #
Hi Dave Z,
1 Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
“Profit of all” is the purpose of the gifts of Holy Spirit. So these gifts operate in a very large scale. As a believer our personal growth in the faith works for our own lives. When things are tough, when problems stand before us like mountains, this faith that has grown within us helps us to trust the Lord and act with faith.
When a person has Gift of faith that will help the community, church and a large group of people. For example Moses standing before the red sea and behind them was the Egyptian army. The whole community of Isralites needed a miracle. Unless the gift of faith operates Moses can’t pull a miracle. There is no way he can streach his rod toward sea and wait whole night for the sea to part into two.
If you are I are in that situation we will try to do something. We will try to find some swords, some weapons so that we can give some fight to Egyptian army.
BTW even the gift of faith grows. First Moses started at “no faith”. He refused to go and said I am no good. Then he went and tried and failed and was angry. Then he tried again. So he reached to the faith at the time of red sea in steps.
Lisa Robinson on 24 Jul 2009 at 8:10 am #
Yes Vinod, you are so right and we are so wrong. We should follow your example and paste Scripture everywhere to show how skilled we are in the Bible. If only we can attain to your level of Bible knowledge that perhaps our pride would vanish. Because clearly we are not in the Word, as you can so obviously and accurately surmise, revelling in our pride, arrogance, and education. Shame on us.
See we are but fallen sinners, without hope and reconciliation with God but for the sacrifice of Christ. By God’s grace, we are what we are and could not even come to Him except for the gift of faith that He extends as indicated in Ephesians 2:8. We are striving to understand Him and His word but recognize that we are also capable of getting things wrong. Forgive us for relying on teachers who can help us understand God’s word better. All cannot be so extremely knowledgeable like you Vinod.
Vinod, since we obviously don’t know anything about the Word, perhaps your time would be spent better with people as knowledgeable as yourself.
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 8:32 am #
Hi Lisa,
Eph 2:8 doesn’t say that faith is gift instead it says Salvation is gift of God.
Forgive me if I am understanding it incorrectly because of my poor english. But that’s how I read it that the whole context is about Salvation not about faith.
Salvation being gift of God you still obtain it by acting on faith and asking for it. And the believing you do for Salvation you have to do it yourself, God is not going to do it for you.
If saving faith was a gift and you don’t have control on it and it didn’t come by the will and effort of a person then every single person on the planet earth has to be saved because God doesn’t do partiality and He should give it to every one. Our action controls our receiving of Salvation. That action comes by faith. So if we don’t have control on our faith then that action will not happen by our own will.
So you end up with liberal theology that every person on the planet is going to make it to heaven.
steve martin on 24 Jul 2009 at 8:41 am #
Vinod Isaac,
The human will is in bondage to sin. it is not the solution to the problem…it is the problem.
God has died for the entire world and forgiven the entire world (in spite of what Christians believe).
He desires that all would come to faith, but that does not happen.
Many reject Him.
When we come to faith, God gets ALL the credit. When we reject Him, we get ALL the blame.
You got a problem wit dat!? Talk to God about it when you get “up” there.
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 8:54 am #
Hi Lisa,
We all are imperfect. That’s why we need to depend on the Word not in our own understanding.
I am open to correction if somebody shows me that I am wrong from the Word of God.
All the time I hear is to read something written by somebody.
Leslie sent me the following link
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5466
Here is what author of this site says about Words of Jesus “My Sheep Hear My Voice”
The word “voice,” then, can’t actually mean some kind of inner voice because a thing is never a metaphor of itself. It’s a picture of something else. Jesus must be referring, in a figure, to something else that the phrase “hear my voice” represents. What is it?
That another brainwashing. I have no clue why a person need to change and twist the words of Jesus. Word of God clearly says “hear”. And people have heard the voice of God throoughout Bible so why God would do differently? Why a person not willing to believe in the very Words of Jesus.
Below I give Bible verses where God literally spoke to people and this is after Jesus spoke that verse.
Acts 10:15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.”
Acts 8:26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert.
Acts 26:14 “And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 8:57 am #
Hi steve,
You wrote: He desires that all would come to faith, but that does not happen.
According to Lisa God gives the saving faith so since God desires every on to come to faith and if God is not giving that faith who is at fault?
Fact is God doesn’t give saving faith. It is upto each individual to believe in the saving grace. God is not going to do it.
steve martin on 24 Jul 2009 at 9:09 am #
Vinod,
Once again, you’ve got it wrong.
Faith is a gift of God. St. Paul tells us that. Jesus tells us that in His conversation with Niccodemus.
Jesus also says in John, that “No one CAN come to Him, unless the Spirit of God draws him.”
The word ‘draw’ is the same word used other places in scripture as to ‘compel’ (force).
What was St. Paul doing when he made his decision for Jesus?
He was being compelled by God (knocked off his horse and blinded) while he was on his way to arrest and kill some Christians.
So much for OUR choosing to have faith.
Lisa Robinson on 24 Jul 2009 at 9:21 am #
Vinod, re #137, the issue is not what Jesus said but what did He mean by what He said. Look at the context of the chapter. What is Jesus talking about? Hearing voices? He is talking about those in his fold. This goes back to the Scripture that Steve cited that no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draw Him. I could go on about that and also how you are not considering the context of Ephesians 2:8, but honestly I’d be wasting my breath.
What you call brainwashing is learning from others to maybe consider something we have not thought of before. It doesn’t mean they are right and it doesn’t mean you are right. It just means you are willing to consider. That does require us to have a teachable spirit and a recognition that maybe we don’t know all there is to know.
Peace out.
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 9:31 am #
Hi steve,
I have not read any where that saving faith is a gift of God. If you are refering to Eph 2:8 read my reply to Lisa. If not let me know where it is in the Bible.
I don’t see it in conversation with Nicadomous either. I read John 3 again and can’t find what you are saying.
To the point of Holy Spirit draws a person I think you are trying to refer John 6:44,45.
John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
That happens when a person hears from the Word of God. Look at “taught by God”. When a person hears from the Word of God, Holy Spirit backs it up and convicts a person of his sins.
John 16:8 “And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9 “of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Faith and conviction put togather makes a person act and accept Jesus as his personal savior. That act of faith God doesn’t do.
Even after being knocked off of horse paul could have resisted to take the step of faith. Paul got saved not because he was knocked off but because he acted and believed in Jesus.
steve martin on 24 Jul 2009 at 9:37 am #
Vinod,
You and I have much different theologies.
You place man (and his will) at the center, and I prefer to let God do the willing in the salvation department.
I pray that one day, you might change your mind (by the grace of God).
Take care, and may God bless you.
– Steve
Wm Tanksley on 24 Jul 2009 at 9:52 am #
I know that there are different measures of faith, obviously. That’s why I asked THAT question. And that’s what you’ve failed to show; ALL of the verses you quoted show that there are different measures, but none of them ask or imply that we should measure our faith and make effort to increase it.
That’s unkind of you to say — my post as it stood was longer than this blog allows.
You didn’t cite the Kingdom Parable of the Mustard Seed; you cited the “faith as small as a mustard seed”. Those are two different quotations; in one the topic is the growth of the Kingdom (faith isn’t even mentioned), and in the other the topic is the amount of faith (and the point seems to be that not much is needed).
Why would he do that? Why wouldn’t he instead do what he actually did — tell them that even a small faith is enough to do miracles that they’d never seen before?
Seriously? Because I didn’t confuse the same two passages that you did?
Yes, since I asked for those passages, and you quoted my question and implied that you were trying to answer it, I think that would be appropriate.
In fact, this seems to credit God for increasing their faith. It definitely doesn’t credit them.
This is the only good one you’ve posted. I’ll address it separately.
Note the preposition “on” (in Greek, it’s the prefix ‘epi’). You’re building something else up _on_ your faith, not building _up_ your faith.
-Wm
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 9:52 am #
Lisa,
Can you explain to me the context of Eph 2:8. I want to understand how you people read it that makes you believe that faith is gift of God.
Ok on John 10 let me will give you the context.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
How do you read it? “he goes before them” does it not tell you the daily walk with the Lord?
Does it not correspond to Ps 23? To me it clearly speaks about day to day walk with the Lord. It doesn’t represent position of a person before accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Then read the following verse
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
“and am known by My own” tells clearly that they are already saved and they know the Lord Jesus.
You and the author of that link are both trying to revert the meaning of verses I just quoted with the following verses.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 10:28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28 don’t revert/negate the meaning of John 10:3,4,14
Then you have to think what does it mean when Jesus said “And I give them eternal life”.
Keep in mind that these sheep already follow Jesus look at “and they follow Me”. How can the sheep that already follows Jesus be unsaved?
Do you have an answer?
cheryl u on 24 Jul 2009 at 10:05 am #
Vinod,
I don’t know if you have posted on this blog before this thread or not. If you haven’t, you may not be aware that there are people from two very different schools of Christian thought that post here. Many are Calvinists and others are much more Arminian in their theology. If you are not aware of the differences of those two positions, you will find it hard to know where a lot of what has been said by others in the last comments on this thread is coming from.
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 10:19 am #
Hi Wm,
Read those verses again that says “little faith” and “no faith”.
They do tell desciples like “Why are you fearful”, “Why did you doubt” etc. That tells me that they needed to work on those areas and raise to the level that they are no more fearful, they no more have doubts. If somebody scolds me with those words that’s what I will understand from it.
Mat 8:26 But He said to them, “Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?” Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
If teacher tells you why did you do your homework. That tells you that you needed to do your homework.
Then Jesus says they have little faith that tells the measure of their faith and if they have to reach at “no doubt” position that’s definately “increase”. So Jesus didn’t have to tell them word “increase” that is already understood in the passage.
Now to mustard seed.
Luke 17:6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.
Read those words “faith as mustard seed”. Specially the word “as”. And since Jesus already spoke the parable about mustard seed for the kingdom so to me it tells that here the same meaning applies.
It doesn’t mean that “small faith can do it”.
Look at Mat 17:20 where Jesus answering to question “why we could not cast out”. There again it says “faith as a mustard seed”.
Mat 17:20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
And before that Jesus uses word “unbelief”. So Jesus is talking about increase from “unbelief” to “as mustard seed”. And according to kingdom parable that will mean starting from small(little) it needs to outgrow.
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 10:25 am #
Hi cheryl,
I know Many are Calvinists and others are much more Arminian in their theology. That’s why I was saying instead of putting one’s theology above the Word of God let’s put Word of God over them and examine.
BTW you can count me (and what I am saying) as third theology and you can name it “unknown”.
steve martin on 24 Jul 2009 at 10:27 am #
Vinod,
“BTW you can count me (and what I am saying) as third theology and you can name it “unknown”. ”
I believe that is the first thing you have gotten right.
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 10:36 am #
Thanks steve,
I believe in brain storming the Word of God and believe it at it’s face value. When I read I want to read it unaltered. If I can’t corelate with it I believe that something is wrong in my side. So instead of trying to fit the Word of God to my way I try to fit myself to that perticular passage.
Every time it is I who need to change not the Word of God. If God has spoken something He has a purpose behind it so I can’t learn the Word of God by ignoring or altering it. I have to read more and find out if there is a related verse or passage anywhere else in the Bible. Bible interprets Bible so I believe we can find answer within the Bible.
Wm Tanksley on 24 Jul 2009 at 10:45 am #
Here’s the address I promised, followed a Biblical rebuttal of your basic point (based on actual text).
I am happy that you’ve finally found an apparent mention of striving to increase one’s own faith in the actual text. Unfortunately, this fails the test of immediate context; it’s not commanding them to “abound in faith”, it’s telling them that they already abound in faith, and asking that they also abound in kindness. Paul then goes on (in the next verse) to explain that even that isn’t to be read as a command, but as his eagerness to watch their kindness display itself by this opportunity to compare to the sacrificial giving of others.
Now, I’d like to show that your concept of knowing one’s own amount of faith is not only unbiblical, but actually goes against the clear Bible text. In James, we see that faith is not something we can simply look within and see, but something that shows itself by our works. If it were possible to strive to grow our faith by monitoring its level, James would then have to explain how we could examine the changes in our works to confirm the increase in faith level; but the only test he gives merely distinguishes between living faith and false claims of faith.
But let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that James was actually merely saying that introspection is the wrong tool to measure one’s own faith level, and that therefore he was trying to say that looking at one’s own works was the right means. You would want to say that one could be confident in one’s level of faith by observing one’s own works, and confident in one’s improvement by watching one’s works improve.
But this interpretation runs into all kinds of problems elsewhere in the Bible. 1 John says that we can’t trust our own conscience to not condemn us in spite of our righteousness; and John is actually talking about knowing whether we are saved, which is directly on topic when discussing faith. Paul measures his works before his salvation, and finds them in many ways to be better — “perfect in the law”, “more zealous” — than his works after his salvation.
Hence we have a contradiction, which means that my assumption ad argumentum that James might be prescribing self-inspection of works to judge a level of faith is incorrect. Thus James must not be building a test that judges the level of faith, which is what I intended to show.
No, the faith that we are saved by is not something that we increase or decrease; indeed, this fits the fact that salvation itself is by nature all-or-nothing. Saving faith is the gift of God; saving faith will inevitably show itself in the works that God created us to do, while an absence of faith will show itself in rebellion against God.
-Wm
Lisa Robinson on 24 Jul 2009 at 10:59 am #
Vinod, you are not from the U.S. correct? Peace out is a phrase we use to indicate when we’re done, which means I have nothing further to say on the topic.
Perhaps one of my brothers or sisters here would like to address your rendering of John 10 and possibly what does my sheep hear my voice mean.
But I have more pressing and fruitful endeavors at hand. I am done. Take care.
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 11:06 am #
Hi Wm,
Yes salvation needs 100% faith and 0% doubt. But a person doesn’t reach there overnight. Faith grows and reaches there that’s why Jesus said about seed parable.
Sower sows the seed. Another waters the seed. And then seed sprouts and it grows and when it is ready for harvest that is the time a person commits his life.
I remember Billy Graham saying that the person who received Christ in his crusade somebody even a lot of people have done the hard work in the background already and what they see in crusade is just the harvest.
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 11:12 am #
Thanks Lisa for letting me know that peace out means “we are done”. I was thinking that your peace has gone out somewhere.
just kidding.
Anyway I hope you will think and will search for a context for Eph 2:8 and also think about John 10.
I also hope that you will try to read the Word of God more instead of depending on scholors. Sometimes we need to empty ourselves from the wrong things you have learned before to see the truth.
Wm Tanksley on 24 Jul 2009 at 2:02 pm #
But Jesus never said anything like “why did you not increase your faith?” What he actually said was simply an observation on the amount of faith the person had — no faith, little faith, great faith.
That actually seems to tell us that “no doubt” isn’t part of having great faith; it’s an additional requirement — if it were part of a great faith, the requisite faith wouldn’t be compared to a seed elsewhere described as tiny, but to the mature tree. It seems to me that Christ’s actual point is to tell the apostles that the size of faith isn’t what gets the results. Can you actually demonstrate from the text that this is unreasonable?
Can you paraphrase his statement so that it’s less allusive, then? Wouldn’t such a paraphrase look as follows: “If you have faith as _the kingdom of God_, you can say…” Christ’s didn’t define the mustard seed as “something that grows”; he defined it as being like the Kingdom of God.
But that’s what it’s actually saying, if you actually look at the _words_. Can you come up with a reason why that doesn’t make sense?
Christ is not contrasting faith with doubt, though; he’s contrasting faith with _unbelief_. Those are opposites; doubt is something different.
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 24 Jul 2009 at 3:00 pm #
The Bible never says or implies that.
So when Peter gave his Pentecost sermon, or his sermon to the gentiles, were the converts false, and they needed more time to reach 100% faith? For that matter, did Peter word his call wrongly when he told them to repent and believe — should he have asked them to think about it, mull it over, and he’d speak to them again in a short while?
It _seems_ that these people “reached there” in less time than overnight. And I don’t see Paul, ever after, talking to them and telling them otherwise. John even tells some that anyone who left was never actually among us (1 John 2:19) — and that all we have to do was to keep that which we had heard from the beginning.
I think you’re confusing the Parable of the Sower with the times Paul disclaimed credit for peoples’ salvations. (Or perhaps you’re just making your own analogy, in which case I apologize; you’re entitled to do that.)
But this is interesting; you’re also claiming that at the point you commit your life, you have 100% faith and 0% doubt. Is that an accurate reading on my part, or am I jumping to conclusions?
Paul said something similar once; he was even more humble, since not only did he give credit to his fellow missionaries, he gave all the credit for the harvest to God. (Not that I’m saying Graham is being prideful here — he’s no doubt thinking of Christ’s call for workers for the harvest.)
-Wm
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 3:16 pm #
As I mentioned that Jesus said to His desciples like “Why are you fearful”, “Why did you doubt” etc.
That tells me fear and doubt are ooposite to faith. So those questions are equal to “Why didn’t you increase your faith”. I know you will dispute it because you can’t find word “increase” there. But when you look at the context and mustard seed parable that’s what it means. Because to reach from where they are to a situation of “no doubt” they need to grow in their faith.
Why you have difficulty understanding is because you learned it from child hood that size of faith doesn’t matter.
“no faith”, “little faith”, “great faith” are all sizes of faith and according to Jesus they matter. “no faith” and “little faith” are no good.
That itself tells that Jesus didn’t mean that even if you have little faith you can move mountain. Instead He said if you have faith “as” mustard seed. If faith as mustard seed meant to be small faith then according to Jesus it is no good. He already rebuked disciples for their “little faith”.
Mark 4:31 “It is like a mustard seed which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on earth;
Mark 4:32 “but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs, and shoots out large branches, so that the birds of the air may nest under its shade.”
look at “like a mustard seed” it is equal to “as mustard seed”. So from Mark 4:32 which gives definition of “as mustard seed” it is clear that Jesus was talking about three things.
1.) it is small
2.) but it grows
3.) it outgrows and becomes huge
Same applies to “as mustard seed” of faith.
I can’t understand why you have difficulty making that connection.
Also you are trying to read your interpretation into it. I don’t see “small faith is enough” all I see is “faith as mustard seed”. And definition of it is in Mark 4:32.
Size of faith does matter according to all the verses I quoted so far.
Dave Z on 24 Jul 2009 at 3:34 pm #
Vinod, how about your faith? Have you thrown any mountains into the sea lately? Or caused any fig trees to wither?
Jesus said that if you have no doubt you can do those things.
He said “If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
I’d like to see an end to the regime in North Korea, which executes believers. But I have doubts, so can you take care of that for me?
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 3:36 pm #
Hi Wm,
Yes I agree that Bible doesn’t say 100% faith and 0% doubt for salvation but according to Rom 14:23 and James 1:6-7 doubt is opposite of faith and it is even sin. James goes even to say that don’t exect to receive anything.
Rom 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
James 1:7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;
James 1:8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
And We are saved through faith Eph 2:8.
When Peter gave his Pentecost sermon, or his sermon to the gentiles it is posible that those people had heard Jesus before. Jesus has been preaching for 3 and half years. It is possible that they believed immediately. Because they had just witnessed the pouring of the Holy Spirit. Some times a visual demonstration is more powerful to draw people to belief.
But yes they were genuinely saved and they grew in the Lord togather. I can’t doubt it. But I can’t say that they heard for the first time.
My focus was not who gets the credit but my focus was that seed is sowed and watered and harvested the process can take time. Because faith comes by hearing and hearing from the Word of God. Every time you hear from the Word it increases your faith. When you reach to the threshold to be ready you accept the Lord.
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 3:54 pm #
Hi Dave Z,
That is a way to make fun of the Word of God. Either you believe the Words of Jesus or you don’t that’s your choice, but I want to let you know that God is mocked.
If you mock God today. God will laugh at you one day. That will not be pleasent.
Carl Peterson on 24 Jul 2009 at 4:18 pm #
What is faith? Does faithul man ever question God? Does a faithful man ever lament?
I would say that only a faithful man can lament to God and one who does not does not have faith. I will cite Jesus as my Biblical example although David is a good one also.
Also what is doubt? Is doubt just one thing or could there be different kinds of doubt? Could there be bad doubt and okay doubt? Is it doubting God to say “I do not know why you are putting me through this but I will trust you” ?
I am a hospital chaplain and I have to correct many who act like one has to be happy all the time to be a Christian. So many Christians come into the hospital and are so afraid to cry out to God. They feel to have faith they must be okay and happy that they are about to die or that they are suffering. Where they find this in the Bible I do not know? I will have to go look at the lamentign pslams again or maybe Jesus in the garden of Gesthame. Maybe that will help.
Carl Peterson on 24 Jul 2009 at 4:25 pm #
I think faith is a walk with God through your life in which God the Father, Son, and Spirit are a part of and touch all parts of your life. It is not “I am happy with you God” 24 hours a day. It is struggling with God. Like Jacob it is a wrestling with God. It is making God part of everything you. Even if I doubt his existence it is keeping him in the middle of that also.
For instance I see many patient who are very angry at God because they or a loved one (even worse) is sick. It is not their lack of faith that produces their anger. One must have great faith to be angry at God (Not that I am saying that we should all try to be angry at God). What I think is important is to be honest and real with Him. To walk with Him as Enoch did. To get our feet dusty and to get tired and sad and happy with him.
Wm Tanksley on 24 Jul 2009 at 5:14 pm #
Your reading of Eph 2:8 there is not unknown — the preposition could certainly be referring to the context in general rather than to the word “faith”. That’s possible, so it will have to be judged in context.
But in context, before we were saved we were “dead”, and “children of wrath, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind”; then all of a sudden, “even though we were dead, made us alive”. What made that change in us? Was it our own desire for God? No, because our desires were as described before. Was it our own faith? No; how could faith, which is conditioned on desiring the rewards God gives to “those who diligently seek him”, be present in a “dead” “child of wrath”?
Something happened, and Paul describes it: God “made us alive together with Christ.” God didn’t wait for our faith, because if he had, we’d still be as much children of wrath and as dead as we were in verse 1. After God quickened us, He didn’t wait for further assent or understanding; He “raised us up with Him and seated us in the heavenly realms…”. He did this graciously (which means of his own free will), not out of obligation because their faith earned it.
So even if you don’t make “faith” the direct gift of God, its presence in us is due to the gift of God, and is part of the gift of God that constitutes our salvation. And remember, whatever that gift is, NONE of is something we get by our own effort, “lest any man should boast.”
Also John 6:37 and surrounding.
But this passage says that everyone who is thus “drawn” will come to Jesus, and anyone who isn’t drawn won’t come, and everyone who’s drawn will be raised up on the last day! Regardless of what “drawn” means precisely, the meaning of this is clear: _everyone_ who gets drawn is given salvation and resurrection on the last day; there’s no allowing for even one of them refusing that.
And Paul acted and believed not because he was a good man, but because the Holy Spirit drew him.
Pharaoh got “knocked off his horse” too, and he didn’t believe because he was appointed to wrath.
The gentiles who heard Paul’s sermon to them some believed and some didn’t. How does Luke record the difference? “As many as had been appointed unto eternal life…
Fitz Johnson on 24 Jul 2009 at 5:14 pm #
I believe I see your point Michael. First, let me say that I respect you highly for coming clean that you struggle with doubt sometimes, even doubting the existence of God. We ministers and leaders need to admit that we have the same struggles, fears , and doubts as those who are not called to preach.
We live in a sin cursed, fallen creation, and we ourselves have the seed of sin, rebellion and all that is anti-God dwelling within us…so it is no wonder we struggle with doubt.
What did the man say in Mark 9…Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief…!
Our struggle with doubt is like our struggle with sin…just as we must learn to master our flesh in the battle against sin, so we must learn to master our doubt,(by constantly feeding on the word of truth) so that it does not become the foundation of what we believe. As long as we are in this life, there will always be some doubt.
Alexander M. Jordan on 24 Jul 2009 at 6:35 pm #
I just read this very interesting article so I am entering the conversation a bit late. I tried to read through all the comments but it was quite daunting and I ended up skimming through them.
I think that Michael Patton’s point is that fallen people sometimes experience doubt. “To doubt is human”, I would add.
For if we look at the disciples in their various responses to Jesus they often doubted or lacked faith. I don’t think that Michael’s article is saying it is good to doubt God or His Word, but I do think he is trying to say that experiencing doubt is an experience common to fallen people.
Now it is true that Jesus rebukes doubt, but, as shown by how our Lord acted with Thomas, he understands our human frailty. He compassionately helped Thomas to overcome his doubt (John 20:27).
I also think of the man in Mark 9:24 who had a son with an unclean spirit and brought him to Jesus to be healed. The disciples had been unable to cast out the spirit and this was apparently due to some measure of faithlessness in them (Mark 9:19). Notice the exchange between the man and Jesus:
“And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. 21 And Jesus asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22 And it has often cast him into fire and into water, to destroy him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” 23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’ All things are possible for one who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” .
I think that the father here is very honest and humble– he knows that his faith is imperfect and he cries out for help from the Lord. I think that in this matter of doubt we ought to similarly plead for God to have mercy on us all. Of course we should also read and act upon God’s word.
So I think there is a synergistic quality to our faith/walk with God.
Paul said, “But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me” (1 Cor 15:10) and also,
“work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure (Phil 2: 12-13).
I think these verses show that while believers act on the grace of God, ultimately God is the one working in us.
Also he says, “For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.”
So we each have a measure of faith assigned to us by God– can it be increased? Surely it can, yet at the same time we must recognize God’s grace…
Vinod Isaac on 24 Jul 2009 at 7:46 pm #
Hi Wm,
You are refering to Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
That is through grace. Faith doesn’t bring death into life grace does.
When a person steps into accepting Jesus through faith. That activates the grace of God. And grace does the rest of the saving.
So even in that faith is not gift of God. Grace is. We can not provide grace of God for us but we can tap into it through faith.
Here is how I understand John 6:37 and following verses.
Verse 40 gives the desire of Father.
John 6:40 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
He wants every one to believe on the Son and have everlasting life.
verse 44 Father draws people and these are the people “who has heard and learned from the Father” Verse 45.
All these people are still those who have stepped forward with faith. Verse 40 “everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him”.
I don’t think God makes a determination before hand whom He wants to chose and whom He doesn’t want. Although Through His forknowledge He knows who is going to come and who is not.
So when a person is ready to hear and learn from the Father then Father draws that person. Paul was ready for it that’s why God created those circumstances. Still Paul could have rejected Jesus if he wanted to. I mean it is in reverse order than what you have written.
Denise on 24 Jul 2009 at 8:39 pm #
I want to thank CMP for this article. I am greatly comforted by these words and completely understand with ease, the language and intent of their content. I also thank Wm Tanksley for his clarifying words and strong Biblical knowledge which helped to de-tangle much of the back and forth discussion.
Based on the Scripture listed by everyone and my own simplified interpretation, it certainly seems that the amount of faith that we each have while we are on this planet is a gift of God allocated as He sees fit. I struggle terribly with doubt even though I read the Word, and I have often wondered at people who have more faith than I, even though they are not immersed in the Word. Vinod, I do not see that Jesus was explicitly encouraging or implying that the various people whom He touched during His time on earth, needed to increase their faith.
I too believe that God Himself instructs us, but also that He put Peter and the apostles in positions as teachers and leaders for a reason. These two methods are not mutually exclusive. I suppose the hardest thing to remember in these kind of debates is that the truth needs to be spoken in love(-for just a few of the posters). I can’t even claim that I could have accomplished this myself given this particular set of difficult discussions. At best I sometimes employ a delayed response to edit my flesh from an heated reply before posting. I am grateful to have come across such a passionate, Christ loving site. Thank you for the encouraging words which have aided my walk with our Lord.
Roger Price on 24 Jul 2009 at 9:03 pm #
I am a passionate believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and for years haunted by all manner of doubt. I consider your commentary one of the finest contributions to this area of thought that I have ever read. It is clear that you have examined doubt from many angles and offer a conclusion that gives such solace to my often anxious heart. I am so grateful for what you have written on this subject. Certainly I also love the work of Lee Strobel, William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, Mike Licona, Os Guinness, and others. Yours in Christ, RP
Wayne Leman on 25 Jul 2009 at 1:08 am #
I agree with Michael. I went through a stressful period of doubt (God’s existence, miracles and the resurrection) beginning during my final year of Bible school. The doubts drove me to buy books that addressed my areas of concern. I struggled. After several months I realized that I had more evidence on the side calling for belief in God’s existence and Christ’s resurrection. I took that “leap of faith”, converting my childhood faith into adult faith. Sometimes doubts still cross my mind, but I now realize that faith does not mean the absence of doubt. It means I am willing to take my chances on what looks like the best game in town, with the most evidence to back it up. I haven’t been disappointed.
David McKay on 25 Jul 2009 at 4:40 am #
Important topic. Thanks for raising it and for what you’ve said, Michael. Don Carson’s sermon on Doubting Thomas is well worth everyone’s time. He points out there are many reasons for doubting.
I love the way that Thomas, once a doubter, made one of the most marvellous statements of Christ’s divinity in John 20:20.
Hilda Ward on 25 Jul 2009 at 8:54 am #
What a way to start the morning. I’ve been reading these blogs all morning.
It saddens me tremendously to have doubts about the existence of God. Those doubts have decreased as my knowledge of Gods Word has increased.
How do I deal with doubt. I would, and still do, remember all that GOD has done in my life. All the prayers He answered, even before I accepted Christ as my Saviour. I was in my forties when I accepted Christ as my Saviour.
I KNOW without a doubt that I have prayed to Him and He has responded to those prayers in a way that only He can. It casts out all doubt in my heart.
Does the doubt return. Oh yeah. But it does not linger and I find it refreshing to sit back and REMEMBER His awesome presence in my life.
For as long as I can remember I have always believed in God, without knowing much about Him. ( I was not raised in a Christian family)
Trusting Him was another matter. I did not have believe that I could trust anyone including God and it took decades, many decades) before I could accept Christs love for me. Now, well I can’t imagine life without Christ, nor would I want it.
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 8:57 am #
Is it that every one here reading a different Bible?
Bible doesn’t endorse doubt of Thomas.
John 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
Jesus said to him “Do not be unbelieving, but believing”.
Then read verse 29.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
To me it looks an indirect rebuke to Thomas saying Thomas you are not blessed because you could not believe.
Denise on 25 Jul 2009 at 9:29 am #
Jesus is clearly against unbelief. That is not the issue. He is not saying strengthen your faith. He is saying believe. We are not frozen photographs, we are human beings. As human beings we move back and forth with our limited human capacity to be constant; some wavering less and some more. Jesus was compassionate to Thomas. He knew his human heart and admonished Thomas in His perfect love. He did not say to Thomas “You have forfeited heaven because of the unforgivable sin of doubt”. Jesus, the creator, died also for our weak ability to attain the level of belief that you describe. Empathy is a gift that can be increased. Jesus empathized with all of our weaknesses, including our doubt. Yes, it is blessed for us to believe without seeing. We will enter heaven with our mustard seed of faith and celebrate for eternity because of His death and resurrection–not because we believe perfectly. If Jesus could forgive Thomas even though Thomas had the benefit of witnessing Jesus’ miracles, He can forgive us who lapse into doubt at our weak moments (which are many). I cling to my hope in Christ and realize that without His mercy for my condition as a human, I would be eternally separated from His presence. I am so grateful, that while I struggle on to keep my faith in Jesus, that there is empathy in this forum to nudge me on in my walk.
Stan Hankins on 25 Jul 2009 at 11:11 am #
All Christians doubt and if they say they don’t, they lie on top of doubting. Until we see the Saviour face to face, we will have periods of tempting doubts.
Stan Hankins on 25 Jul 2009 at 11:12 am #
One more thing. Doubting is not unbelief. It is a TEMPTATION to unbelief.
steve martin on 25 Jul 2009 at 11:15 am #
Amen, Stan!
Dave Z on 25 Jul 2009 at 11:51 am #
Another Amen to Stan. That’s a tremendous insight. One who doubts can still obey, and obedience is the essence of faith, and of loving God. I think Jesus doubted in the garden on the eve of the crucifixion. Yet he obeyed.
steve martin on 25 Jul 2009 at 11:54 am #
Good thoughts, Dave Z.
The scriptures are quite clear that even in our faithlesslessness…He remains faithful.
Thanks be to God it doesn’t depend on us.
Blake on 25 Jul 2009 at 12:42 pm #
I believe that for the born-again Christian, when doubts come up, they are effectively temptations from satan. The born-again only has to look to the experience of being regenerated to remind them of what God has done in their lives and know that He is very much real. The doubts come up, but they are short-lived, unless cultivated. The problem is that many, if not most, professing Christians have not been born again and therefore are not truly Christians at all. This is a very serious concern.
“In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” John 3:3
Being a Christian is not merely a belief or an activity. It is a person who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. If you wonder whether this has happened to you or not, it most likely has not.
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! ” 2 Cor 5:17
It is an undeniable, life-changing experience, to say the least. It is utterly impossible for me to look back and deny that this has happened to me. I still refer to it as my “brain transplant”. It was that radical. It is brought about by surrender to the Lord, repentance (true repentance – not just apology) and trusting Christ to take authority over your life.
“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!” Mark 1:15
To me, the word “believe” is not strong enough to describe my relationship with the Lord. I know what the Lord has done in me and in my life. Through the study of His word and the personal experience of those things that He has done, I can readily say that I KNOW the Lord Himself.
The bible tells us to examine ourselves and be certain that we are in the faith. (2 Cor 13:5) If you are experiencing doubts, I’d highly recommend visiting that scripture.
Blake
Wm Tanksley on 25 Jul 2009 at 1:11 pm #
Great — but we already know that fear cannot be the opposite of faith, since perfect love is only available by faith, and “perfect love casteth out fear.” Therefore we have proof that fear isn’t the opposite of faith, which hints that the other things Christ rebuked also need not be.
I really like Stan’s insight that doubt is a temptation to lose faith, not itself the loss of faith. Fear, I would expect, works in a similar way.
I dispute it because there’s not a single passage that ever in any sense asks for it, and many passages that clearly contradict it.
There are two huge gaps that you’ve never been able to bridge between the Bible and where you’re standing. The first is that “the context”, when actually examined, actually has always shown that increasing faith isn’t needed; simple existence of faith is what’s needed. The second is that the mustard seed parable is _about_ the Kingdom, not about mustard seeds.
You know nothing of my childhood, and that’s irrelevant. (It’s not true.)
To be continued:
-Wm
mbaker on 25 Jul 2009 at 1:29 pm #
If you stop and think about it, faith actually begins when we are faced with doubt because we have to make a choice. After all, doubts about how we were living, and whether we were on the right path or not is the reason most of us turned to Christ in the first place. In that instance, doubt was certainly a positive.
I think it is absolutely human to continue to have doubts from time to time. Without that capacity human beings could not separate right from wrong, or truth from error. I don’t know any clergyman who can truthfully say they have never doubted the existence of God at some point.
I think a lot of times what happens is we want to live or to think one way, and God wants us to live or to think another. When the temptation becomes strong enough we choose sin, like Adam and Eve. So, it’s not so much a matter of doubting, as how we choose to act upon that doubt.
Alexander M. Jordan on 25 Jul 2009 at 1:52 pm #
Some really excellent comments here– I agree with Stan when he says that “Doubting is not unbelief. It is a TEMPTATION to unbelief.”
If we are having doubt in some area, we ought not to feel condemned but instead to counter our doubt by turning to God’s word and/or addressing our doubt with specific evidence that will help us believe, trust God and overcome our doubts.
Satan tempts us to doubt the veracity of God, but being tempted is not a sin. We fight the good fight of faith, and counter Satanic lies with the truth of God’s word.
And if we do at times succumb to unbelief through our doubt, this, as someone else mentioned, is not the unforgivable sin. It is a sin that Jesus also paid for on the cross.
Vinod’s comments on this topic seem founded on the assumption that producing faith is entirely man’s responsibility. This is an Arminian assumption that is wrong biblically, as others have pointed out. Fallen people don’t come to God on their own— God comes to them, granting them the ability to perceive the truth of the gospel..
For example, in John 6:53-59, Jesus expressed deep spiritual truths in the words he spoke to his disciples, saying “the words I have spoke to you are spirit and life.” He said,
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood l has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
Many hearing these words could not believe them:
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:60-65)
Jesus teaches here that the Spirit gives life, and the flesh is no help at all in generating faith to believe. We don’t come to believe in Jesus because of our own human capacity to believe, but rather the ability to come to Jesus– to believe and have faith in Him– is granted by the Father…
Alexander M. Jordan on 25 Jul 2009 at 2:07 pm #
So coming back to doubt– we would all be doubters who would never come to belief in God and in His word were it not for the Spirit, who gives life and overcomes our sinful weakness, our spiritual blindness. “The Spirit gives life; the flesh is no help at all” (see also Eph 2: 1-8)
And even as believers, we continue to rely on the indwelling presence of God within us (John 14:15-24), who sustains our faith and nurtures it by granting us the ability to grow deeper in our understanding of the truth. Apart from God in us we can do nothing (John 15:5), including have the kind of faith that overcomes doubt.
Our faith is being tested, but God’s power is what caused us to be born again and what also guards us in our faith:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in t praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
(1 Peter 3:1-9)
Joshua Allen on 25 Jul 2009 at 2:13 pm #
Vinod’s comments on this topic seem founded on the assumption that producing faith is entirely man’s responsibility. This is an Arminian assumption that is wrong biblically
While the assumption is wrong biblically, it is not Arminian. It is semi-Pelagian.
Wm Tanksley on 25 Jul 2009 at 2:13 pm #
IF Christ were intending to define “mustard seed”, He was in error. Mustard plants are small weeds, not big bushes, and certainly not trees. He was not in error because He was defining the Kingdom; He didn’t say that mustard seeds grow into trees, but rather that the Kingdom starts from an implausibly small start (like a mustard seed), and grows into a huge tree (He didn’t say, but this is UNLIKE a mustard seed)… and …
You forgot one:
4. Birds of the air (wild birds) build nests in it.
How does that fit into faith, since you want to force it to? Birds in the Kingdom parables are symbols of the servants of the evil one… How does that work out for your reading?
Trying to make Christ define the life cycle of mustard makes Christ look ignorant and wrong. It also means that Christ was using “mustard seed” differently from other rabbis of the time, who are cited as having used it as an example of smallness.
It’s also odd that although you think Christ is trying to answer the disciple’s question (about increasing faith), they didn’t actually ask about how they could increase their faith; they requested that He act to increase their faith! Perhaps you think they were asking the wrong thing; but Christ didn’t speak to correct them on that; instead he told them about faith as a mustard seed.
Now, if we still insist that Christ meant “growing faith” when He compared it to a mustard seed (which honestly doesn’t make sense — a seed isn’t growing, it’s dormant), we run into another problem: God is the one who causes plants to grow and gives the harvest, not us; so even if we pushed past all the previous objections, we’re still stuck with admitting that “increasing our faith” would be an act of God, not of us.
-Wm
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 3:01 pm #
Hi Wm,
Perfect love casts out fear. That itself tells that fear is unwelcome. According to you faith produces perfect love so in other words faith casts out fear. Same way faith casts out doubt. When you firmly believe in something doubt is not there.
So I don’t see a point in your argument that “doubt is not opposite of faith” or “fear is not opposite of faith”. Doubt replaces faith so is fear.
James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
In James 1:15 if you cutoff desire you will not reach upto sin. Same way if you cut off doubt or fear you will not reach upto unbelief.
I see absolutely no point in trying to support doubt by saying every one has it. Every one has sin too so what? We have to deal with sin same way we have to deal with doubt.
I already gave you lot of references for “no faith”, “little faith” and “great faith”. I already told you have “little faith” which is equal to your “simple existence of faith” is disqualified by Jesus already.
You get that “simple existence of faith is enough” because you deliberately want to interpret faith as mustard seed into small faith.
Mat 8:26 But He said to them, “Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?” Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
That is your “simple existence of faith”. Faith exists there in “little” messure. For your information it didn’t calm the storm.
So “simple existence of faith” can not produce anything according to Mat 8:26.
Alexander M. Jordan on 25 Jul 2009 at 3:09 pm #
I said:
Vinod’s comments on this topic seem founded on the assumption that producing faith is entirely man’s responsibility. This is an Arminian assumption that is wrong biblically…
And you commented:
While the assumption is wrong biblically, it is not Arminian. It is semi-Pelagian.
Yes, the Arminian position does grant that God gives a kind of grace (prevenient grace) that draws men to God. Yet it also says that, in the end, man must make the choice to believe or disbelieve the gospel. And somehow that choice is independent of God. For the Arminian then, although God helps man to believe by giving grace, that grace can be rejected.
I think that Jesus contradicted this notion in the John 6 passage I quoted. He shows that it is the Spirit alone who gives life and the flesh counts for nothing. I take this to mean that by my own human effort I cannot come to believe. Also in John 6:65, explaining to the disciples why some did not believe, Jesus says, “no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 1:12-13 I think also speaks to this, when it says:
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
We are not born Christians, nor can the flesh produce faith nor does our own choice make us born again, but God causes us to be born again.
It seemed to me that Vinod’s semi-Pelagian/Arminian overemphasis on man’s role in the process of producing or generating faith was causing him to reject the main thrust of Michael’s article. Which is that sinful, fallen people (all mankind, including born-again Christians) struggle to believe and may experience doubts, but by God’s grace believers not only come to know the truth of the gospel but also develop stronger faith, as the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 3:11 pm #
Hi Joshua Allen,
I didn’t assume anything. I gave solid Bible references.
Can you give Bible references to backup your statement. To me it looks you are the one making assumptions.
If faith is God’s responsibility then God can not blame humans for anything that is happening on earth. All the blame goes to God that why He didn’t provide faith. If faith is God’s responsibility and man has no control on it then God is at fault for not doing His job.
Man has always been running from his responsibility and has been blaming God for his misdeeds.
You will not find a single verse in the Bible that will tell faith is God’s responsibility. Even the gifts of Holy Spirit doesn’t come automatically unless person desires and asks for them specifically.
1 Cor 12:31 But earnestly desire the best gifts…..” If God is the only decider then there is no point to “earnestly desire”.
Also these gifts need to be stired up the receiver.
2 Tim 1:6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
Also these gifts were given by laying on of paul’s hands. So the receiving of gifts was not automatic instead it was given through paul’s laying of hands.
So if you sit back and relax and don’t desire or somebody whom God has appointed does not lay hands you don’t receive those gifts.
Human responsibility is there every step of the way.
Wm Tanksley on 25 Jul 2009 at 3:31 pm #
It’s a pity that most people follow this kind of phrase with a “but”:
Rom 14:23 says that whatever is not of faith, is sin. Two responses:
First, you’re assuming that if a person has any sin in their life, they’re not saved (otherwise you wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that 0% doubt is required for salvation). This is clearly wrong.
Second, this verse is not labeling doubt as sin, but rather actions that proceed from doubt — or more accurately, actions which do NOT proceed from any cause aside from faith. (This is why “all their righteousnesses are as filthy rags.”) This is true for EVERY motivation. If I wash my car because I trust God to honor my care for His property, I’m not sinning; if I wash it because I do that every month (but forget about God), I’m sinning.
Yes. And none of that is of ourselves, lest any should boast.
You are free at this point to say something like, “I retract my statement that people don’t reach saving faith overnight.”
The Gentiles Paul preached to were hearing for the first time. (I concede that many of the Pentecost converts had already heard.)
Yes, but you’re also claiming that the threshold is 0 doubt 100% faith. I’m claiming that the threshold is ANY faith at all. Until you have that, you’re a child of wrath (Eph 2); after you have it, God saves you through that faith that you have. You can’t put that faith inside yourself; anything you do without faith is SIN, and so can’t be part of salvation.
-Wm
mbaker on 25 Jul 2009 at 3:39 pm #
“Human responsibility is there every step of the way.”
Absolutely. Folks forget that God Himself gave Adam and Eve a choice between life and death, so this shouldn’t be reduced to a Calvinist or Arminian issue. Adam and Eve freely chose knowledge of good and evil over life. God did not make that choice for them, nor does He now for mankind. Obviously, if He did it would still be a perfect world.
Doubt doesn’t necessarily mean a lack of faith. It simply means we are not completely sure of the why, what, when, where and how of something. If it does affect our faith as Christians, it is our responsibility to go to God with it in prayer and faith and ask Him to help us in our unbelief.
Alexander M. Jordan on 25 Jul 2009 at 3:43 pm #
Yes, man is responsible to believe the gospel, as Jesus taught:
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God (John 3:18, see also John 3:36)
Yet at the same time, Jesus also said:
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:37
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 6:63-65
Jesus teaches that people who come to God (in other words, people who believe and are saved) are those that the Father gives Him, those to whom it has been granted to be able to come to Jesus. He explains unbelief by saying that the ones who did not come to Him were those to whom it was not granted by the Father. So faith to believe is a gift from God.
Paul’s teaching in Ephesians 2:8-9 reiterates the truth that the faith that saves us is completely a gift of God, not something that we in ourselves can produce, and therefore we can never boast about it or take credit for it:
“For by grace you have been saved a through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. ”
The following is a commentary on Eph 2:8 from the ESV Study Bible:
Eph. 2:8 By grace refers to God’s favor upon those who have transgressed his law and sinned against him. But grace may also be understood as a “power” in these verses. God’s grace not only offers salvation but also secures it. Saved refers to deliverance from God’s wrath at the final judgment (Rom. 5:9); “by grace you have been saved” is repeated from Eph. 2:5 for emphasis. The verb form for “have been saved” (Gk. sesōsmenoi, perfect tense) communicates that the Christian’s salvation is fully secured. through faith. Faith is a confident trust and reliance upon Christ Jesus and is the only means by which one can obtain salvation. this. The Greek pronoun is neuter, while “grace” and “faith” are feminine. Accordingly, “this” points to the whole process of “salvation by grace through faith” as being the gift of God and not something that we can accomplish ourselves. This use of the neuter pronoun to take in the whole of a complex idea is quite common in Greek (e.g., 6:1); its use here makes it clear that faith, no less than grace, is a gift of God. Salvation, therefore, in every respect, is not your own doing.
So man is responsible to believe the gospel yet the faith that saves is a gift of God. Both truths are in the Bible.
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 3:59 pm #
Hi Wm,
What picture does word gooseberry draw in your mind? If you ever saw one in US it will draw a picture of a shrub in your mind. I come from India and when I hear gooseberry it draws a picture of a huge tree in my mind.
Because in North India I have myself seen huge trees of gooseberry. So when I first saw a gooseberry shrub here in US I could not believe. I tasted it and it tasted exactly like gooseberry I had known.
So Jesus may not be talking about mustard plant we know here in US. Some people have suggested that may be He was talking about black mustard (Brassica nigra ).
I also found there are other types of mustard trees/plants too. http://www.articlealley.com/article_539930_26.html
So just hearing mustard seed we can’t be sure that what Jesus was seeing in His place 2000 years back.
Description does tell us that Jesus is seeing something that is big and He is calling it mustard tree.
You wrote:
———-
4. Birds of the air (wild birds) build nests in it.
How does that fit into faith, since you want to force it to? Birds in the Kingdom parables are symbols of the servants of the evil one… How does that work out for your reading?
———-
Birds symbol of servants of the evil one? From where you get that? I don’t see in the passage that those Birds are wild birds either. It just mentions Birds.
To me it is there to just to show how big the mustard tree/plant is.
God doesn’t go and preach to make kingdom of God grow. Evangelists, pastors and believers go and preach to help kingdom of God grow. So your analogy and trying put it on God doesn’t work.
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 4:05 pm #
Hi Alexander,
You wrote: faith that saves is a gift of God
Where is it in the Bible? So far I know only about a misinterpreted Eph 2:8 No body gave any other verse to back their claim about it. May be you can help and give me that reference?
Alexander M. Jordan on 25 Jul 2009 at 4:17 pm #
Hi Vinod:
I did not only quote Ephesians 2:8 but also a number of verses from John 6. The verses I quoted in John 6 demonstrate that when people come to God and are saved, according to Jesus’ own teaching, they are being drawn by the Father and they are unable to come to Jesus unless drawn by the Father.
So these passages show that belief in God (faith to believe in Jesus) is a gift of the Father.
Jesus also explains unbelief by repeating that “no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
I also think that Eph 2:8 is quite clear in showing that faith is a gift of God– for if it was not, then someone could indeed boast. Paul says that no one can boast– about either the grace that God gives them nor the faith through which they are saved.
I also provided a commentary on Eph 2:8 which shows how the original Greek supports the interpretation I have presented.
david gibbs on 25 Jul 2009 at 4:29 pm #
The bible speaks of faith as something that must be matured, strengthened, added to, developed, matured, nurtured, protected and perfected over time. :
Math 6.30 Jesus speaks about Ye of “little faith” while in Math 15.28 he told the woman “great is thy faith”: so the level and quantity of faith can vary from person to person.
Note that in both cases some faith was present, unlike Mark 4.40 WHERE NO FAITH WAS PRESENT “IS IT THAT YE HAVE NO FAITH”?.
In Math 17.20 Jesus says that even if our faith is as small as a “grain of mustard seed” it can still be used effectively by God..
2Thess 1:3 Paul says the Thessolonians’ faith had “grown”.
James 1: 3 say that the “trying of our faith works patience”.
2 Peter 1:5 tells us to “add to our faith virtue”
and Paul in 1 Cor13 says that if we have “all faith” and no charity our faith is useless.
So there is no need for any saint to walk around claiming to have all faith, 100 percent perfected. SDome saints grow faster than some. Oh for some humility, honesty, vulnerability and charity among the saints!
Some saints claim to have faith but we often confuse faith with optimism, hope, feeling luck, wishing, wanting, or being determined. These are not faith. If you are optmistic that somethign will occur or if you hope that somwething will occcur, fine. But that is not faith. The faith of Christ is a gift of God.
Mike on 25 Jul 2009 at 4:37 pm #
Michael, Thanks for another good article. I am there right now. I am listening to Nancy Pearcy’s “Total Truth” and she also came to a point of dumping her Christian faith to find the “truth”. She did over time find the truth, and it was Christianity. These struggles will make our faith stronger than if we just succumb to the faith our parents, friends, church folk, etc. lend us. That works fine until the heat turns up. Then we have to find our own faith.
Joshua Allen on 25 Jul 2009 at 4:38 pm #
@Alexander – I don’t think it’s the purpose of this thread to debate Calvinism vs. Arminianism. I just wanted to make sure that we’re not calling Vlad’s semi-Pelagianism “Arminian”, because it’s not. While I don’t consider myself Arminian, I think it’s very important to be intellectually honest about characterizing our opponents’ positions. It is not fair to Arminians to lump Vlad’s theology in with them.
Alexander M. Jordan on 25 Jul 2009 at 5:05 pm #
I don’t want to make this thread into a debate between Arminianism and Calvinism. However some of the statements that Vinod has made seem to me to be based on either Arminian or semi-Pelagian assumptions that I think are incorrect biblically and I pointed this out.
And I am being intellectually honest by stating my differences with both of those points of view and in my comments trying to show that there is a connection between what one believes about where faith comes from and this issue of doubt experienced by Christians that Michael raised in his article.
If we think faith is entirely self-generated and define faith as consisting of 0% doubt, it will make it difficult, if not impossible, to sympathize with anyone experiencing doubt, especially other believers. We will condemn all doubt as sin.
Experiencing doubt however, as others have pointed out here, is not the same as unbelief and is therefore not necessarily sin. And fallen creatures could have no faith at all were it not for the grace and mercy of God. Having become believers doesn’t mean that we are no longer sinners — accordingly our faith will be less than perfect (i.e, we may experience moments of doubt or some measure of less than perfect faith).
Joshua Allen on 25 Jul 2009 at 5:15 pm #
@Alexander – I agree 100% with your rebuttals of Vinod. He seems semi-pelagian at best, which is why I am completely ignoring him.
I’m just saying it’s very misleading to throw the “Arminian” label into the rebuttals, since he’s not even close to Arminian. It would be exactly like debunking Daniel Dennet (who believes in compatibilist free will) by calling him a Calvinist and saying “Dennet has come under sway of Calvinist ideas like compatibilist free will, therefore he is wrong”. It wouldn’t be fair to Calvinists like myself to do that, since it’s false, and in any case it is committing the circumstantial ad hominem fallacy if it were true.
Alexander M. Jordan on 25 Jul 2009 at 6:08 pm #
Joshua,
You may be correct in saying that Vinod’s views are more precisely labeled semi-Pelagian rather than Arminian. But I’m not completely sure his statements aren’t Arminian to some degree. For example his comment (#165) is something I’ve heard Arminians often argue:
“I don’t think God makes a determination before hand whom He wants to chose and whom He doesn’t want. Although Through His forknowledge He knows who is going to come and who is not.
So when a person is ready to hear and learn from the Father then Father draws that person.”
Based on this statement, as well as Vinod’s argument that although God gives grace, faith is still our moral responsibility (something I’ve also heard Arminians argue) I don’t think it was such a leap for me to conclude that Vinod was presenting Arminian sounding arguments. Nor I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone by characterizing his arguments as such.
And as I see it Arminianism and Pelagianism share some similarity in their error. Pelagianism is of course much more extreme in its error because it says man’s nature was not affected by Adam’s fall, but that all men are still free to choose good or evil. Semi-pelgianism was less wrong but still off, saying that man is not free to do good in his fallen nature, but he is at least able to believe and come to God in his own native strength.
Arminians like Welsey at least proclaimed the biblical truth of the radical depravity of man and therefore saw that the first steps of grace are taken by God. But the problem with Arminianism is if we all get the same (prevenient) grace but one chooses to believe and another doesn’t, then this gives one something to boast about over another and thus contradicts Paul’s clear statement in Ephesians 2:8-9.
So if we understand the assumptions (Calvinistic, Arminian, Semi-Pelagian, etc.) someone is making in their arguments we can better understand their view. I don’t want to mischaracterize either the Arminian view nor Vinod’s arguments here. Againn I do think there is a connection between Vinod’s view of faith and his disagreements with Michael’s article.
Wm Tanksley on 25 Jul 2009 at 6:19 pm #
If you wish to be technical, this is *by* grace, not through it. But neither grace nor faith is a thing that saves us; “grace” is the way in which God saves us (graciously = freely, without obligation or external cause), and faith is the means by which our salvation becomes worked into our lives, “both to will and to do His good pleasure”.
The only “thing” that saves us is God; grace isn’t a “thing” and faith isn’t a “thing”. (This is the meaning of the Reformation slogan “solus Christus”; Christ is the agent of our salvation, the active subject of the sentence, while in “sola gratia” grace is grammatically a means, not an agent.)
That contradicts what Eph 2 says, as we’ve said over and over. Before God acts to make us alive, we are DEAD; after He acts (by grace!), we are not only alive, but “seated in the heavenlies”. Now, as Paul says over and over, we will see faith in all (and ONLY in) Christians; and a James says, we should measure that faith by observing how it overflows into works, not by introspection.
You wanted to say that the entire process of salvation is a gift of God, where I wanted to read that as saying that faith is a gift of God. Either way you’re wrong here; if the entire process is a gift of God, then certainly the faith through which our salvation occurs is part of that gift (even though after it’s gifted it’s by nature OURS, and we are the agents in exercising it).
And again, “grace” is not a *thing* that we can tap into; there’s nothing like that in the Bible, and it doesn’t fit the form of the word. The phrase “by grace” could just as well be translated “graciously” or even “freely”.
And note how well that thinking fits into Eph 2! There’s that parenthesis in verse 5 that makes no sense if you try to say that faith is how we get saved, because there’s no mention prior to that of any faith we contribute; but if you realize that Paul is trying to say that salvation is God’s gracious act, and faith comes later, why that’s exactly how to say it.
More response to this in my next post.
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 25 Jul 2009 at 6:28 pm #
That is _not_ what Christ said there! Christ says that the Father wants everyone who believes on Him to be saved, and Christ promises in that verse and twice more in the verses before that everyone who believes will be raised up on the last day.
Again, there’s *nothing* about wanting everyone to believe; it says something about everyone who believes, not everyone period.
I definitely agree.
This is horribly backward; because Christ said that only those who have been sent by the Father can hear, and only those who hear can have faith. So being “sent by the Father” and being “drawn by the Father” both come prior to faith, since faith comes by hearing.
Oddly enough, I’m not going to argue this point
— it leads into Calvinism, which isn’t really the topic here.
-Wm
cheryl u on 25 Jul 2009 at 6:39 pm #
Wm Tanksley,
You said, “but if you realize that Paul is trying to say that salvation is God’s gracious act, and faith comes later, why that’s exactly how to say it.”
I honestly don’t see how that statement can fit with Ephesians 5:8 that says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;…”
If we are saved through faith, how can we be saved first and then faith come afterwards?
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 7:49 pm #
Hi Alexander,
Read the following verse.
Mark 16:14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
If faith is gift of God then why Jesus is rebuking people for hardness of heart? Shouldn’t He rebuke Himself? That verse clearly says that it is not God’s work to give faith.
As I said Eph 2:8 is misinterpreted one. All here are so much brainwashed that they can’t see that their interpretation doesn’t fit.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
There are three things
1. grace
2. salvation
3. faith
Grace is what comes from God, that’s why you will not find anywhere Jesus rebuking anybody why you don’t have grace. Reason is simple grace is the part that God does not humans. When we do our part “faith” God does His part “grace”.
Why there is no boasting because it is happening by grace and we don’t deserve it. It is not happening by our merit.
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 7:52 pm #
God doesn’t draw a person who doesn’t draw himself near to God first.
James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
mbaker on 25 Jul 2009 at 7:56 pm #
I agree with cheryl U.
If we are going to say man has no choice in the matter when it comes to deciding what he can have faith in, or even whether he can have it at all, according to the preceding arguments here, then we would have to logically conclude from that line of thinking that man would have no choice in doubting God either.
That would throw the whole concept of John 3:16, stating ‘who so ever believes in Him’ off, and and make belief totally beyond our control.
Isn’t that what Adam tried to pull when God questioned him, and he replied that it was the woman who ate the forbidden fruit, and then the woman caused him to make the same mistake?
Sorry, God didn’t swallow that argument that it was completely beyond their control, and neither do I. It’s an avoidance of personal responsibility that goes on even today.
Wm Tanksley on 25 Jul 2009 at 7:58 pm #
Given that even by your interpretation the faith that saves has to be a gift of God, it’s hardly fair to attribute our beliefs to misinterpretation.
But what’s really sad here is how you reply to Alexander’s post, in which he discusses multiple passages that back our claim, and all you say is that nobody’s given any other passages. How about all the ones he gave? They’re right in the message you replied to.
-Wm
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 7:59 pm #
Also read
Mat 13:58 Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
“because of their unbelief” if God gives faith then why He didn’t give faith?
Peter Madison, Sr. on 25 Jul 2009 at 8:20 pm #
To Vinod Isaac and others who have commented: Be careful with living in black or white. We are limited, as humans, only God can live in black and white because He has all of the answers. We learn and we grow, but certainty in all things is a bit beyond we seekers. I am an old man who has loved God from the time I was small. God penetrated my world and drew me to Him in an intimate way over a long time. I treasure that relationship more than anything in life and I still wonder and question and struggle to understand many things. There are many things in scripture and theology, I struggle to get my arms around. The older I get, the more I wonder. I do not doubt that God exists. That was earlier in life. I have had too much personal experience of Him in my life to question that. But, I doubt, on occasion, much of what I have been taught and I learn that much was wrong and I celebrate when God shows me a new light on a subject. Be open to new ideas and don’t crawl into a safe cocoon. It is ok to doubt God. We are human with frailities. David got angry with God in the Psalms, my most read part of scripture. He obviously questioned God as to when He would act. I do that in my struggles at times. I know He will act. I know that from experience. But, I don’t know when, but I trust His when is the right time for me.
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 8:21 pm #
Hi Wm,
Alexander didn’t give any verse that says “faith is gift of God”.
Eph 2:8 he is reading incorrectly.
John 6 “God draws” is not equal to “God gives faith”.
Where is the Bible verse that says “saving faith is gift of God”?
Instead Alexander himself quoted verses that says contrary to his assumptions.
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God
Is very clear “whoever believes in him”
John 6:63-65 is simply talking about Jesus’ forknowledge.
“But there are some of you who do not believe.”
John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
It is very clear that because they didn’t believe Father can not grant them access to Jesus. Because people can have access only through faith.
Alexander is reading “For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.” incorrectly and trying to fit with verse 65. Instead that should be read with verse 64.
It simply says Jesus is all knowing. Both Eph 2:8 and verses from John 6 are being misinterpreted because surrounding passages are being ignored.
Read
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
“you believe in Him”. Clearly says that believing is to be done by people not by God. You ignore the context and twist few verses to fit your theology.
Read
John 6:40 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Again says “everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him”. Again believing has to be done by “every one” not by God.
Read
John 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
“he who believes in Me” again the believing has to be done by person not by God.
You ignore all these verses and twist the meaning of one or two verses and try to fit your doctrine in to it. That’s how cults come into existence.
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 8:27 pm #
BTW I think I need to set context for John 6:29
It is said in answer to question
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
So Jesus is saying when one believes he is doing the Work that God wants them to do.
mbaker on 25 Jul 2009 at 8:58 pm #
“We are limited, as humans, only God can live in black and white because He has all of the answers. We learn and we grow, but certainty in all things is a bit beyond we seekers.”
I agree. Our faith should not be in our faith, or anyone else’s, but in His faithfulness in all things. I too have lived long enough to know that I don’t know it all, and never will, no matter how hard I try, and indeed, thanks to His grace and mercy, I don’t have to. That, to me, is the very essence of faith. We simply trust in Him, come what may, to know what we don’t, even we can’t, or won’t. That’s the real beauty of it.
Running away from that reality is silly. We will have to deal with it now or later. I, for one, prefer doing it now, while I still have a choice.
Wm Tanksley on 25 Jul 2009 at 9:02 pm #
Supposing that’s correct, how does that faith get there? (I’m not sure that faith casts out doubt, since that’s not in the Bible, but let’s say it is.)
That’s not what James says — he doesn’t tell us to cut off desire. I suppose you mean to stop the chain that starts with desire before it leads to sin? But there’s no such chain identified for doubt or fear.
I have no argument here — I agree. Doubt is like sin because doubt is sin.
He never disqualified it, he merely rebuked it.
No, that’s simply the only sensible way to interpret the “faith as mustard seed” comparison. Growing doesn’t work because a seed isn’t growing while it’s a seed; bigness doesn’t work because mustard seeds aren’t big and don’t grow big.
First, the same story is told in Mark, in which the author recalls Christ as asking whey they had NO faith. Matthew could have said “little” if Christ actually had said “none”, but he couldn’t have said “none” if He’s actually said “little”; so it would seem that if Mark can be trusted at all, Christ must have actually said “no faith”.
Second, why do you say some amount of faith should calm the storm? I don’t recall that promise.
That’s not what it says! It means that Christ knew how little their faith was because of how much fear they showed, and how they didn’t solve the problem. I suppose we could debate the correct way to solve the problem; I’d say that the correct solution would be to turn to the One Whom the wind and waves obey (Ps 107:29), while you’d probably say the right solution would be to build up your own faith until you can do it yourself.
Either way, the passage doesn’t show that too little faith is incapable of producing ANY effect; it says that the amount they had (perhaps none?) wasn’t enough to…
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 9:58 pm #
Hi Wm,
You wrote:
Either way, the passage doesn’t show that too little faith is incapable of producing ANY effect; it says that the amount they had (perhaps none?) wasn’t enough to…
That’s what it says. Desciples had faith in Jesus that’s why they had left their nets and boats and followed Him. They had faith to be with Jesus at the moment but they didn’t have faith that Jesus can calm the wind.
That’s why they marveled
Mat 8:27 So the men marveled, saying, “Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?”
They had faith on Jesus in one area of life and not on other.
Vinod Isaac on 25 Jul 2009 at 10:08 pm #
Hi Wm,
Same disciples who didn’t have faith lot of times. Did the following
Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.”
Do you see that “but what I do have I give you”. Will you say to Peter that it is blasphemy? How can Peter claim that he has the healing? Was Peter trusting in himself?
Do you think what Peter said and did was wrong and it should be removed from Bible?
He is the same Peter who tried to walk on water and Jesus rebuked him.
Wm Tanksley on 25 Jul 2009 at 10:34 pm #
That’s a great response; so good, in fact, that Paul pictured someone giving it to him in Romans 9.
But there’s more I can say to your objection. First, God giving us faith is the ultimate solution to the problem, because it enables us to fully fulfill the Law out of love for God. But why didn’t we fully fulfill the Law on our own? It’s not because we didn’t _know_ the law; it was right THERE. It’s not that we were physically incapable; every line is physically possible. Worst of all, it’s not that the law looks wrong to us; the Law is beautiful.
The reason we didn’t obey the law — ALL OF US — is that we don’t _want_ to. How can we possibly blame God for our own unwillingness to do the right thing?
Indeed. Your blame here is only another instance of that.
Aside from the ones we’ve brought before you, of course…
But the gifts are _gifts_; they’re not earned. Asking doesn’t get them for you; it’s up to the Holy Spirit.
Desiring doesn’t get them for you either.
But this happens after the gift is given.
An excellent point. God works through _means_; He used Paul to gift Timothy, and He uses our faith to save us — but that salvation isn’t something we can boast about, it’s entirely the gift of God.
It definitely is. And without God’s work to make us alive, we couldn’t possibly fulfill our responsibility; we’d be “condemned already”, because that’s what we deserve. How can we generate life in ourselves?
-Wm
cheryl u on 25 Jul 2009 at 11:22 pm #
Wm,
I would still really like to know your answer to the question I asked in # 202 above. And I also wonder if your understanding is the Calvinist understanding on this point? I am a bit confused here.
Wm Tanksley on 25 Jul 2009 at 11:23 pm #
That’s almost certain, because it’s what the rabbis of his time talked about.
That article is called “blogspam” — someone snipped together some info from Wikipedia and attached ads to it. Whoever did it didn’t know English very well; they seem to call every plant a “tree”, and they associate “mustard tree” with the mustard plants, even though there’s no relation aside from flower color (yellow). Check out Wikipedia on the two. The so-called mustard tree grows in the western hemisphere; not in Palestine.
No, He specifically tells us he’s seeing something very _small_ and comparing it to a mustard seed. He tells us that the Kingdom of Heaven is like that, except that the Kingdom grows into a huge tree that birds nest in.
It’s ambiguous — Christ uses “it” when says that it grew; so we have to decide whether he’s talking about a specific mustard seed, or the Kingdom.
From the passage immediately before that, right after Christ says “Don’t you understand this parable? Then how will you understand any parable?” (Mark 4:13); He then explains many symbols used in the parables of the Kingdom. There are many — the field is the world, the birds are Satan, the seeds are the word that is sown… And all three symbols I mentioned (Christ defines them in other passages) appear in the Parable of the Mustard Seed.
Christ explained the meaning of all the symbols, and those were symbols He explained. If it wasn’t symbolic, it frankly was an odd parable; parables are _very_ symbolic.
This parable had at least one purpose; I think one purpose was to explain that the Church would grow far beyond what anyone would expect, and Satan would actually find shelter inside it (in the form of false teachers).
That’s fine, but when the Kingdom of God grows, we give glory to God, not to the workers. Do you think that’s just a fiction, that we’re lying in order to look more modest? Or do you suppose it really IS God’s work, and we’re just the tools He uses according to…
Wm Tanksley on 25 Jul 2009 at 11:35 pm #
Good good question, thank you for speaking up. I was terribly unclear. I meant to convey two things, and I spoke too quickly and muddled them.
As a reminder, this is in context of Eph 2. (You meant to type Eph 2:8.)
One thing I was trying to convey was that the final result of salvation — seated in the heavenlies with Christ — is stated _first_ (i.e. in verse 2:5) as a direct result of God’s bringing us to life; there’s no mention of faith there, only of God’s independent work. So _what_ God did (save us) is more primary to this passage than _how_ He did it (through faith). The point that God saved us through faith appears in 2:8, in an echo of 2:5; but even there, Paul clarifies that he doesn’t want anyone to think of this faith as being something we could boast of.
The other thing I was trying to convey was the causal order of salvation as given in this passage: we have faith only because God caused it by bringing us to life. Bringing us to life is salvation from wrath and death; giving us faith is salvation from slavery to sin; and seating us in the heavenlies is salvation from separation from God.
-Wm
cheryl u on 25 Jul 2009 at 11:54 pm #
Wm,
Then you don’t believe that having faith is a part of salvation from wrath and death? We are already saved from wrath and death before we have faith? Or am I understanding you incorrectly?
By the way, thanks for correcting my typo in the Eph. reference.
Joshua Allen on 26 Jul 2009 at 12:28 am #
@Alexander – True, that quote taken alone is pure Arminianism, but taken in context of what else Vinod adds, he is certainly not Arminian. For example in comment #204 he says “God doesn’t draw a person who doesn’t draw himself near to God first”, which is basically nonsense, and not even supported by the scripture cited. This would be vehemently rejected by any Arminian.
FWIW, I think that most Arminians would reject the idea that they have cause to boast, just as most Calvinists would reject the idea that God is the author of sin. Each claim is made by one side to slander the other, and are not very useful, IMO.
cheryl u on 26 Jul 2009 at 1:09 am #
Wm,
Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 2:16 all say that we are justified by faith. And then Romans 5:9 goes on to say, “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath {of God} through Him.” That sounds to me like justification, which the Bible says repeatedly comes through faith, comes before being saved from wrath. If that is the case, how can it be that we have salvation from wrath and death before we have faith?
By the way, it also seems to me that Romans 4:16 and 5:2 make it plain that it is faith that gives us access to the grace of God that brings salvation. Not that the grace of God gives us life or salvation before faith. Of course, that does not negate the fact that the Bible says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. It just doesn’t at all seem to line up to me with the idea that we are saved or made alive before we have faith.
mbaker on 26 Jul 2009 at 9:29 am #
William:
I tend to agree with #221. It does seem to me that it is more of a hyper-Calvinistic point of view than a biblical view to state that if God doesn’t choose us by predestination, then we can’t choose Him by faith. What would be the point of any of us even having faith at all if that were true? Would God be so cruel as to reject someone when they accepted Christ in faith on this earth when they get to the end of their lives, because they weren’t chosen?
It seems to me that would be at odds with Christ’s statements that if He be lifted up, He would draw all men unto him, and that He is willing for none to perish, but desires all to be saved. And we do have to accept Christ’s existence by faith first, because we can’t see Him!
That’s why I wonder if the predestination only thing doesn’t create more doubt in and of itself, because it would certainly cause one to wonder if they accept Christ whether they were really saved or not.
Wm Tanksley on 26 Jul 2009 at 10:06 am #
Why have you decided that I would object to this? What do you think this has to do with our conversation?
It seems that you’re attempting to change the subject — have you decided that the question of growing one’s own faith is indefensible?
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 26 Jul 2009 at 10:13 am #
It is a _part_ of that salvation, because it is a _consequence_ of it. Having been made alive, we then have faith; but having faith is not what makes us alive, because while we were dead we could not have faith.
The reason I put things in this order is simply that I’m attempting to exegete this specific passage; I’m trying to keep consistent with the rest of the Bible, but I’m trying to only say what this passage says. Thus, I include salvation from wrath as part of the salvation from death — because this passage does.
I’ll respond more in my response to your other post.
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 26 Jul 2009 at 12:10 pm #
Yes, we are — to be justified (dikaio) means to have your works officially vindicated. That vindication is declared on the basis of your faith.
The point here — I think — is that this is “the wrath to come”. God’s wrath isn’t revealed right now; it’s waiting for the Day of the Lord, a future event. Eph 2 points out that we are saved from being “children of wrath”, that is, appropriate targets of that wrath; looking forward, we can know with certainty that even though the wrath hasn’t yet come, we will be saved from it, and in a sense we _were_ saved from it, by the revivification described in Eph 2.
The wrath that we’re saved from is future with respect to our faith; the event that caused us to be saved is past with respect to our faith.
In Romans 5:2 I see “the grace by which we stand” to be talking not about the grace by which we were made alive, but the grace by which our standing is viewed in light of how our faith fits the spirit of the law, rather than in light of how our actions fit the letter of the law. This fits the context well.
In Romans 4:16 the context is similar, but this passage isn’t talking about salvation, but about promises to be fulfilled on Earth, toward Abraham’s heirs. The question is not what saves us, but what makes our lives acceptable to God. The answer isn’t “the works of the law”, but rather the righteousness that comes from faith. This righteousness only appears as we enact our salvation in our daily lives (as James would say, I think); but the salvation isn’t caused by the righteousness, nor by the faith which brought the righteousness, but by God’s gracious gift.
cheryl u on 26 Jul 2009 at 12:14 pm #
Wm,
John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
How could anything be more clear that it is HE WHO BELIEVES in Him that has eternal life? To read it that he who has eternal life believes in Him makes no sense whatsoever and is turning what Jesus said around totally backward. And that is what you keep trying to tell us.
cheryl u on 26 Jul 2009 at 12:28 pm #
Wm,
So what in the world wrath and death are you talking about that we are saved from when we are made alive–only wrath and death here on this earth–it has nothing to do with eternal wrath and death?
And the whole context of the Romans 4:16 verse, if you read on through the first part of chapter 5, is that we are justified, etc, by faith. That verse is emphatically not in any way I can possibly read and understand it referring to just life on this earth!!
I am sorry, but it seems to me that you are taking these verses and turning them around upside down and backward from any literal meaning that they have in an effort to make them fit your theology. I don’t see how any one reading through them on their own could possibly come to the conclusions that you are coming to here.
Wm Tanksley on 26 Jul 2009 at 12:37 pm #
First, two quick notes. 1: “hyper-calvinistic” isn’t another word for “wrong”; it means one of a set of errors, and this isn’t hyper-calvinism. 2: My intent is not to present or defend Calvinism, but rather to read the texts Vinod has put before us and see whether what he claims actually comes from the texts.
In every case, we’ve seen that Vinod’s doctines aren’t even present in the texts at all, and are usually contradicted by the plain readings.
In no case have I used the word “predestination”, nor have I spoken of eternity past, or the foundations of the Earth, or the beginning of time. I’m interpreting the text as it appears, specifically in Eph 2.
I didn’t use the word “chosen”, either. I said that faith is a gift from God. If we have enough faith to “accept Christ in faith on this earth,” we were given that faith by God. We won’t be rejected; God doesn’t judge us based on where our faith comes from; He accepts all who have faith.
Context: Christ was just approached by Philip and Andrew, who wanted to know whether the God-honoring Greeks could come to him; Christ’s ministry had been exclusively to the Jews. He answered by saying that after He was lifted up, then He would draw all {people} unto Him. Jesus obliquely answered a few questions, and then hid.
It seems to me that Christ was promising that the Gentiles (and Jews, “all”) would be able to come to Him after His lifting up. He then hid from them, so perhaps He also meant that they couldn’t come before that (but there’s not much evidence).
Again, context: pray for all people, especially the rulers.
God wants all manner of people to be saved; some are from the rulers, even though none were at that time.
If this were what faith meant, then Christ wouldn’t have used the word when talking to people who could see Him. For that matter, it also doesn’t make sense when Paul uses it to explain justification in Romans.
-Wm
Richard on 26 Jul 2009 at 1:07 pm #
Thank you for your open and honest discussion of Christian doubt. I hope you’ll someday write a paper on “Christian Authenticity”; that is, what it means to be authentic when we cross the threshhold of our church. You seem…well qualified to discuss the topic. Thank you, very much, for the oxygen you bring to my life.
Wm Tanksley on 26 Jul 2009 at 1:20 pm #
I’ve been trying to respond to your verses; but here are some to meet that exact demand. By the way, I’d still like to see you explain how Eph 2 could possibly mean what you want it to mean, in light of the actual words (see my discussion).
Here, look at Rom 12:3, which clearly says that “God has distributed to each of you a measure of faith.” Look at Heb 12, where Christ is called the “perfecter of our faith” (note that “the author” could mean that He pioneered it, rather than meaning that He placed it in our hearts, so I’m not citing that as evidence).
The beginning of Rom 4 should also be counted as evidence against the idea that increasing faith is the result of our own efforts; there it contrasts the results of our own efforts against the results of faith. If faith were the result of our own effort, how would THAT make sense?
Now, look at Acts 17:31. Here you’ll find that “God has provided faith to all by raising Him from the dead.” There are no translations I could find that put “faith” here, but it’s the same Greek word, “pistis”. (I suspect this might be because the faith being discussed here is clearly not saving faith — but I’m not certain about that, because it may be.)
How about Rom 14:1, where we’re instructed to treat people with weak faith carefully (rather than lecturing them with our mouths full of meat offered to idols). That makes it look like there’s no blame in them for their weak faith.
-Wm
mbaker on 26 Jul 2009 at 1:36 pm #
William,
I am not discussing or defending what Vinod has said, but trying to understand how you are arriving at some of your conclusions. What you seem to be saying is there is a disconnect between God’s spirit drawing someone and someone having the faith to answer that call.
You also say:
“hyper-calvinistic” isn’t another word for “wrong”; it means one of a set of errors, and this isn’t hyper-calvinism.”
I agree with the first part of the sentence that hyper-calvinistic is not another word for ‘wrong’, but not the second part. One of the points of hyper-Calvinism is that our faith has nothing to do with accepting Christ, in the sense that we are drawn only by God’s spirit and thus have no control or responsibility in the matter in the matter whatsoever. For those who don’t understand what I am talking about there is an excellent article on the subject here, which I suggest you read. It deals with William’s quote above in a very balanced and fair manner.
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm
I maintain it is this kind of attitude that causes many believers like the person CMP has written above who hear these kinds of teachings to not only doubt their salvation, but the very existence of God. Because they doubt, they think they haven’t been saved because their faith isn’t perfect. The point is that somewhere in the church we are obviously not making the balance clear between our faith, and God’s grace to these people. And I don’t think it is because they were not genuinely converted, but they have been given improper discipleship.
And I do value context highly, but not using it with such strict literalism that a verse cannot apply appropriately to all generations as well. Jesus spoke both in descriptives and prescriptives, after all ,and spoke of the past, present and future. So, if we are only going to use the narrow context of His time and culture to prove scriptural points, then the Bible would be pretty useless to us today. So there should be an appropriate balance there as well.
Wm Tanksley on 26 Jul 2009 at 1:59 pm #
That’s okay; the context wasn’t talking about faith in specific, but about the ability to respond to Christ in general. This clearly says that “nobody comes to Christ except the Father draws Him.”
Yes, whoever believes in Him clearly has saving faith; but that doesn’t tell us where the faith comes from.
That’s not true; there’s only one phrase there that mentions His foreknowledge, and it’s not Christ explaining that (it’s an interjection by John). Christ is saying that the Spirit gives the gift of life, and human nature is no help. That says _nothing_ about Christ’s foreknowledge; it makes it very clear that salvation to life comes about with no help from human nature.
Jesus also said that not all of those standing there were saved; John later realized that Jesus knew all along that Judas specifically wasn’t saved, and John says so here. But this doesn’t change the meaning of what Christ said here.
This isn’t talking about faith; it’s talking about coming to Christ. That coming itself requires faith, but that’s mentioned elsewhere. You’re still ignoring the plain message of this verse: God grants the gift that allows us to come to Christ, and without that gift we do not come.
Christ spends a lot of time explaining in John 6 that the reason those people don’t believe is that they aren’t granted that by the Father; if they were granted it, they would have come to Him. If that’s not the point of John6, then what do you think the point is?
That’s not true; I talked you through the passage surrounding Eph 2:8, and you’ve never responded except to deny it.
Yes, but the ability to believe is still a gift of God. Otherwise, why would these verses be in the middle of this passage?
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 26 Jul 2009 at 2:27 pm #
Thank you for attempting to explain Eph 2:8. I note, however, that you make no attempt to fit it into its context; instead you just read off a few definitions by rote.
No; the reason is that grace isn’t a thing that people *could* have. God’s grace isn’t a liquid that He injects into us; it’s the word for the way in which He works our salvation. The reason that Paul mentions “by grace you are saved” the first time (Eph 2:5) is that here we see God acting to save us even though there is nothing good in us — and that verse continues to claim that God completes our salvation, even to the extent of seating us in the Heavenlies, still by His grace alone.
Grace is not a thing. If grace were a thing, it would be grace no matter why God chose to “give it to us”; but look at Rom 11:6, “otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” In context, this is actually talking about the same thing we’re talking about: salvation isn’t given as the reasonable reward for anything we have or did, but solely because God freely gives it as a gift.
If we could generate in ourselves saving faith, then God wouldn’t be freely giving us salvation in response — he’d merely be giving us what we are rightly owed. That contradicts Rom 11.
Rom 11 says that would make grace no longer grace.
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 26 Jul 2009 at 2:34 pm #
That’s not what James 4:8 says; it says that God _will_ draw near those who draw near to Him. It doesn’t say that He never makes the first move; it does say that He always does respond when we move.
Worse for your reading, this passage is clearly addressed to Christians (“brothers and sisters”). So this isn’t the same drawing that Christ spoke of in John 6.
-Wm
Richard on 26 Jul 2009 at 6:50 pm #
This discussion has been very interesting. Thank you all. And I say this as someone who is ill and has had only 3 hours of sleep over the past two days. And I will now shamelessly use this as an exuse to admit that I have actually lost track of those of you who camp more comfortably with Calvin and those who favor Arminius’s worldview. I think it’s only fair to be clear from the outset: I’m an active member of a Southern Baptist church who leans heavily on Calvin’s views of God’s sovereign election—so being shunned is a daily risk I gladly take
. I find nothing with which to disagree in Michael Patton’s article. But because of my Baptist/Calvanist roots, the inescapable tension between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility does occasionally inspire debate with my friends (especially, it seems, in Sunday School). There’s always at least one thing that stikes me with this God’s sovereignty/man’s responsibility problem–other than no one can solve it with complete personal satisfaction, and that it always brings to mind an uncomfortable image of Job asking God, “Why?”). But…the thing that “gets me” the most is that the discussion usually leads us to a high cliff, with Kierkegaard, in his fideism, yelling, “Leap off the cliff and have faith that God will save you (Afterall, he would say, faith supported by reason is not genuine.) On the land side of the cliff, however, stands someone (a Calvanist, I assume) calling out, “Use the common sense God gave you” (He doesn’t tell you not to jump, only that you should really think twice about it.) Personally–because the truth is more important to me than being right—I can not read Scripture and hope that it fits my worldview. Frankly, if I understood everything in God’s Word, I wouldn’t believe in Him. I see no way to read the Bible—Old and New Testaments—and not see clear evidence of God’s election of individuals, some to salvation and others, somehow and for some reason, to their own choice. I don’t fully understand it, and I’m not sure I even like it, but I can’t escape it without hard work, and I do know that each step I take away from the notion of God’s sovereignty, the smaller He seems, and the more doubt—and less humility—I find in myself. God loves us enough to allow us the freedom to doubt Him—while His ego remains well in tact.
Richard
Alexander M. Jordan on 26 Jul 2009 at 8:57 pm #
Vinod,
You claim that the verses I quoted in John 6 contradict my argument that saving faith is a gift of God.
For example, you quoted
John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
and said about this verse:
“It is very clear that because they didn’t believe Father can not grant them access to Jesus. Because people can have access only through faith.”
It is not very clear at all how you arrive at this interpretation. The verse says no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by My Father. You claim this means that the Father cannot grant them access to Jesus because they did not believe? But Jesus is saying the exact opposite. He is saying people did not come to Jesus (i.e., believe in Him) because it had not been granted to them by His Father to be able to believe. The verse is says no one CAN come (no one has the ability to come), unless the Father grants it. It is NOT saying that because one displays a faith that Jesus foresees, God the Father then grants access to Jesus.
Jesus makes a similar point about belief/unbelief in John 10. He was speaking to certain Jews that did not believe He was the Messiah.
24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do l in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. ”
Notice that Jesus says “you do not believe because you are not part of my flock “. He does not say, “you are not part of my flock because you do not believe”. In other words it is those whom God has chosen to be His flock that believe. This corresponds with John 6:44, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” Jesus is talking about the drawing of a person by God the Father that leads to salvation (“I will raise Him up at the last day”).
You have argued that it is man’s moral responsibility to believe in Jesus and I fully agree. Yet at the same time there are many verses, many from Jesus’ own lips, that show that the ability to believe comes from God Himself.
Another example is Peter’s confession of Christ:
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.”
The connection between this discussion of the source of faith and Michael’s article is that we are all sinful “doubters”– until the Lord saves us. Even as believers we wrestle with various temptations and sins. Doubt is a temptation to unbelief, but is overcome by the faith that ultimately comes from God.
Vinod Isaac on 26 Jul 2009 at 9:18 pm #
Hi Wm,
Finally you have given some verses that talks about faith as gift of God but none of them is saving faith. I will be still waiting for a Bible verse that will say that saving faith is gift of God. Believe me you will not find it in the Bible.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Look at the context. It is talking about the gifts.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;
I already discussed the gift of faith one of the 9 gifts of Holy Spirit. It is talking about that. In fact it refutes your “simple faith idea”. It clearly says that different measure of faith is given. And it increases as I had given example of faith working in Moses to part the red sea.
I also gave example of Peter healing the paralyzed. Same Peter who didn’t have faith before is now full of faith.
It is like parable of talents God gives gift and when these gifts are used He multiplies them. Who had 5 talents earned 5 more. Using what God has given we earn more.
Acts 17:31 you yourself said that is does not talk about saving faith.
Rom 14:1 talks about weak faith. I have been saying different messures of faith from long time so nothing new there. It simply says who has more faith should not boast on his faith and should not put down another who as weak faith. Every believer who has not increased his faith will have weak faith. Those who are growing they will have weak faith at start and as they grow their faith will get stronger. So in Christian walk you will find people at different levels of faith.
Rom 14:1 just confirms what I have been saying all along.
So still you have not given me a Bible verse that says saving faith is gift of God.
Vinod Isaac on 26 Jul 2009 at 9:44 pm #
Hi Alexander,
You are reading John 6:65 reverse. They didn’t believe is in verse 64. So “they didn’t believe” happened first and verse 65 comes in picture after that.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Those who believe are the ones who are granted the right to become children of God. That is what you read in John 6:65
John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.”
John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
They didn’t believe so Father doesn’t grant them to come to Jesus. They didn’t believe so they are not granted the right to become children of God.
You again ignored all the verses that were explicitly saying that believing is part we humans have to do. And deliberately misinterpret other verses that don’t say anything about faith is gift of God. I repeat those verses again.
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Can you read verse 29 and tell me who does the beliving?
John 6:36 “But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
Who did not believe? people or God?
John 6:40 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
“every one who sees the Son and believes”
John 6:42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
They didn’t believe again instead they were questioning.
John 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
Again who does the believing?
John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.”
Again “who did not believe”?
After so many explicit verses that says beliving has to be done by us humans you say humans have no control and faith is gift of God. While none of those verses say that faith is gift of God.
Vinod Isaac on 26 Jul 2009 at 10:07 pm #
Ok on John 10:25-26 again talks about all knowing quality of Jesus. Jesus knew that their question was just to find fault.
John 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
Jesus was responding to their unbelief even after seeing the miracles performed by Jesus.
John 10:20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
Looks to me exact same situation when some healing preacher says Jesus heals there are people who say that he is doing it with the power of devil. Even after reading in Bible it is hard for people to believe that Jesus heals the sick.
Jesus was responding to that part saying you don’t hear my voice and you don’t understand because you are not my sheep.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
That verse needs to be read in connection with 27. Because verse 26 ends with “As I said to you”.
If you read it without verse 27 it looks to be what you are interpreting it but when you read in context with verse 27 it gives the meaning I just explained above.
A distinction of who is capable of hearing God’s voice clearly. Because they don’t hear they don’t believe.
Another confirmation “Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the Word of God”. They were not listening to the Word of God they were just trying to find fault.
Alexander M. Jordan on 26 Jul 2009 at 10:51 pm #
Hi Vinod:
I have not said people are not responsible to believe. As I have preciously argued, the Bible shows that yes, it is our responsibility to believe in Jesus. However at the same time it shows that the ability to believe comes from God (as I have shown in many verses). It is difficult to hold these truths together– to comprehend how we can be held responsible to believe while at the same time people are so blind in sin that they are unable to see the truth unless it is revealed by God. Yet over and over Scripture reveals exactly this paradox.
You are the one reversing the order of what Jesus says in John 65. Jesus is explaining why some did not believe, or did not come to Him– and says it is because it was not granted to them by the Father. What was “it” that was not granted by the Father? Faith– the ability to come to Jesus and accept His message.
He had already said the same thing to His disciples in verse 44: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day”. So He repeats this teaching in verse 65. He explains that those who were now turning away from Him and not believing His message and being saved were not believing because it had not been granted to them to come to Him (i.e., believe). He is explaining why they did not believe.
These verses describe not just having access to Jesus but coming to Him, believing in Him and being saved. Jesus clearly states that this coming to Him does not happen apart from God drawing the person or “granting” it.
You did not quote the John 1:13, which contradicts your interpretation of John 1:12. You seem to be saying that believing (by our own power) earns us the right to become children of God. But if you read the two verses together, you see something very different:
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Verse 13 shows that when one is born again through believing in Christ, the source of that birth is God. These verses show we are not born into spiritual life when we are born the first time (“not of blood”). We cannot will ourselves into spiritual life (“nor of the will of man”); nor is being born again a product of the flesh (“nor of the will of the flesh”). Instead to be born again is to be born of God– it is a sovereign gift of God:
“The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8
It seems you think that since it our responsibility to believe then the ability to believe must be within us already, or God could not hold us responsible for unbelief. These verses don’t support this view. They show a paradox- we are responsible yet God must grant the ability to come to Him in belief.
Alexander M. Jordan on 26 Jul 2009 at 11:24 pm #
Vinod,
Reading John 10:27 together with the previous verses does not invalidate my interpretation, but rather, supports it.
The passage, beginning with verse 25 reads:
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Again Jesus tells these Jews that they do not believe, not because they are unable to hear– for they were hearing the word of God being spoken by the Son of God. No, Jesus says it is “because they are not part of my flock.” If they were part of His flock, Jesus goes on to say, then they would know His voice, follow Him and be given eternal life that would never be taken away from them. But because they are not His sheep they do not believe.
Is it unpleasant to accept the implication of Jesus’ words here?
Nevertheless Jesus clearly states that they do not believe because they are not His sheep. This implies that because they were not chosen by the Father to be given to the Son as His sheep they were unable to believe Jesus’ words or to accept the evidence of His miracles.
Jesus is not saying that because they don’t hear correctly therefore they don’t believe. He says they are not His sheep and therefore they do not believe. Taken together with other verses I’ve pointed out (John 6:44, 65) we know also that they CANNOT believe.
Again, why did Peter believe that Jesus was the Christ? “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 6:17).
Richard on 27 Jul 2009 at 12:03 am #
You guys do realize (don’t you?) that anyone–even a Buddhist or Muslim–can selectively “proof text” the Bible to support almost any of their preconceived and…needed ideas of the truth. Right? I could probably build a case for infanticide, or rape or slavery or murder…if I was more interested in being right than in truth. Sometimes God’s word just doesn’t need to be over analyzed. The simple meaning, in cultural context, is usually best. Angel d’Urbervilles told Tess, in a Thomas Hardy novel, “This business of being alive is pretty serious, don’t you think?” Personally, I believe life’s mostly about our personal, sovereign God loving us more than we can possibly ask or think–while we watch Him prepare a new future that will be…just as it ought.
Oh…and thanks to the person (sorry, I lost your name) who posted the the link to the the Phil Johnson article at http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm. Interesting.
Absolutely no arrogance intended here,
Richard
Alexander M. Jordan on 27 Jul 2009 at 1:11 am #
Richard,
Thanks for reminding us about motivation. I suppose you’re right that one can make any argument by selectively presenting proof-texts from Scripture. On the other hand believers ought to (and must) make their case from Scripture, which is the truth revealed by God. Jesus expects us to know Scripture and to understand and apply it correctly. Of course not all interpretations are equally correct.
As Michael Patton I’m sure would agree, what we believe (our theology) is reflected in the way we live. Wrong ideas lead to wrong conclusions and applications. None of us has perfect theology yet we are called to teach and preach and defend sound doctrine. So that has been my aim in this discussion, though as one who is a sinner I could be wrong on certain things or at times express myself in a way that is less than godly.
If I become too caught up in just arguing for the sake of being right I hope I’ll have sense enough to bow out of the conversation.
Richard on 27 Jul 2009 at 1:31 am #
Alexander,
Sorry, could not help myself (LOL).
Amen! I agree with all you’ve said. Thanks for displaying such a great heart…and Spirit. You spoke about the natural imperfections in everyone’s theology, while also being called to preach and defend sound doctrine. Well said! But, perhaps, we are safer in our Christian walk to simply embrace true humility… as Calvinists
Richard
K.A. Christian on 27 Jul 2009 at 8:09 am #
I believe we must first qualify the difference between a Christian and a disciple (because there’s a difference in the two in this Westernized Christianity)… We’re all aware that every disciple must be a Christian; and every Christian is not a disciple… with that being said, I believe disciples can’t doubt God and be truly disciples…
If we take into account the early disciples of Christ and how the Church was built… I don’t think they had room for doubt… I believe if they exercised doubt then we wouldn’t have anything to build upon…
It’s imperative that we know God in order for us to teach and preach God… How can we be effective in our calling if we exercise doubt? True faith is believing without seeing or knowing…
Blackie on 27 Jul 2009 at 8:20 am #
Hi Michael,
Good article!
I can think of several places in the New Testament where we see doubt that can both instruct us and encourage us.
One of my personal favorites is St. Peter, when he says to Our Lord, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord.” (Luke 5:8) Here he is doubting that the Lord can and will accept one so unworthy. Frankly, I feel the same way sometimes, but the relationship Peter had with Jesus and the things that God did through him build up my faith.
Another is St. Thomas, who expressed his doubt about the apparition of the Lord after the resurrection, and yet when Jesus appears again with him there he utters my own favorite proclamation of faith, “My Lord and my God”. (John 20:19-31)
Even Matthew ends his Gospel dealing with doubts even at the ascension when he tells us, “And seeing him they adored: but some doubted.” (Matthew 28:16-20)
I find encouragement and strength in passages like these where I see the Lord Jesus dealing with us weird and frail humans with such power and yet gentleness,
Take care my friend!
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
(The peace of the Lord be with you all always.)
Church Militant
Vinod Isaac on 27 Jul 2009 at 8:23 am #
Hi Alexander,
John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
The continous sentence will be
“But there are some of you who do not believe. Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
“who do not believe”, “there fore I have said”, “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted”
I don’t know what difficulty you have to read it that “who do not believe” is the reason for necesity to say “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted”
Every thing you are trying to interpret you are trying to add to it.
I don’t see any mention of faith
I don’t see any mention of God making a pre determination.
Nothing is there. You are adding text to reach to your conclusion.
So for you could not give a single Bible verse that says explicitly that God gives saving faith. Not one. Without adding extra text you can’t interpret the way you are interpreting.
The word “granted” does not mean “faith given” or ” pre determination”.
When You apply for a college admission, your application is reviewed and admission is granted. Unless admission is granted you can not come to the class. Does that tell you that college has pre determined that who is going to attend the class and who is not? Does that tell you that college is going to give extra credits to help student (who are pre determined ) to quality?
I mean come on if you don’t add those extra words in college admission how come you add them in Jesus’ statements?
Vinod Isaac on 27 Jul 2009 at 8:26 am #
Hi Richard,
You wrote:
You guys do realize (don’t you?) that anyone–even a Buddhist or Muslim–can selectively “proof text” the Bible to support almost any of their preconceived and…needed ideas of the truth. Right?
Yea exactly right. That’s what Alexander, Wm and many here are trying to do. In a passage where I can not find “God gives saving faith” and I can’t find “God makes pre determination” You guys are reading those words into the Word of God.
I am still trying to ask how can somebody add those texts?
Vinod Isaac on 27 Jul 2009 at 8:31 am #
Hi Alexander,
You said:
Again, why did Peter believe that Jesus was the Christ? “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 6:17).
Father revealed it doesn’t equal to “Father gave faith”. Father reveals. He doesn’t give saving faith. It is human responsibility to act on that revelation and believe.
Psa 95:7 For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture, And the sheep of His hand. Today, if you will hear His voice:
Psa 95:8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you will hear His voice,
Heb 3:8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness,
When father reveals a person has responsibility to “not harder his heart” in other words it is a responsibility to act with believing on that revelation.
steve martin on 27 Jul 2009 at 8:32 am #
How about 1st Peter 3:21?
“Baptism now saves you also.”
The previous verse (20) says that this happens through water (and the Word attached to that water), which we can or shouldn’t anyway, take any credit ourselves.
Vinod Isaac on 27 Jul 2009 at 8:46 am #
Hi Alexander,
Same problem while reading John 10:25-29. You are adding “faith given” and “God makes pre determination”.
steve martin on 27 Jul 2009 at 8:48 am #
Just wondering…has anyone here ever beaten a dead horse?
(as much as we are beating this one?)
Richard on 27 Jul 2009 at 10:18 am #
Vinod,
Thank you for your response to my post. I’m not certain about the theological position of the other posters you mentioned, but I do think you would be very comfortable discussing theology with my Southern Baptist friends (As I said in an earlier post, I’m an active member of a Southern Baptist church where Calvin is tolerated, but Arminius is the hero). As a Calvinist-leaning Baptist, I enjoy the “tension” with my friends, and I’m always open to debate. Frankly, I find that Christians who lean towards an Arminian theology tend to struggle very hard with most of Scripture in order to support their position—apparently because of a need to feel worthy of God’s love. They have to, for a minor example, twist and turn the words of Romans and Genesis and Exodus and Job, etc and etc. in order to “sublimate” God’s sovereignty to their own good works and sense of responsibility (including God’s sovereign choices for election and predestination). In the end this only puts God in a very small box and encourages our pride and our (not very humble) sense of worthiness. .And I’ve noticed that, like many of my friends, Arminians often spiritualize Scripture passages in what philosophers would label “sophistry”. But this houise is built of straw. which, eventually, must fall. I’m aware at this moment that I’m approaching the line between offering an opinion and being arrogant—and I truly don’t want to cross it. Perhaps it’s enough to just point out that it’s not always wise to defer to those with whom we share a common worldview. Our opinions, in other words, should be held tightly, but only a few of them should be sewn into our skin. Despite all of my sin (probably much greater and more numerous–by any human measure–than your own) I’m convinced that God loves me unconditionally. His love for me is completely unearned or in any way deserved. And when the day comes to meet God face-to-face, I won’t be at all surprised to see Him running to meet me in order to make me feel that I’m His only child—and not his prodigal son. Again, thanks for your input, Vinod.
Richard
cheryl u on 27 Jul 2009 at 10:31 am #
Richard,
I think the irony of all of this is that those who hold to a more Arminian persuasian see those of a Calvinist persausion as having to twist and turn another whole set of Scriptures to fit their theology!
I have personally come to the conclusion over the years that this whole discussion is one that holds a lot of mystery. I don’t see either side as truly holding all of the answers. There are just too many Scriptures that just don’t fit in either pigeon hole neatly without being seriously twisted into them.
I remember a friend and Bible teacher once saying regarding the whole election/predistination versus free will debate, “The Bible teaches both of them. Now try wrapping your mind around that one.”
Richard on 27 Jul 2009 at 10:44 am #
K.A. Christian,
Perhaps I’m missing your point, but my first reaction to your post–the first thing that springs to mind–is to ask you what, in your worldview, do we do with the disciple Peter’s doubt, or with the doubting disciple Thomas…or, frankly, with most–probably all–Christians throught history, whether they’re mentioned in Scripture or not? We doubt; God expects our doubts–and He probably even welcomes our doubts in order to use them as tool to build our faith. But perhaps I’ve misunderstood your point.
Richard
Richard on 27 Jul 2009 at 10:57 am #
Cherl u.,
, but isn’t it wonderful that we can’t wrap our minds around everything God tells us?!? God’s greatness just soars before of our innate ignorance! Thank you so very much for your…authenticity!
Well said! I do believe, as a Calvinist, that Arminians must work much hard than I at pigeon holing Scripture (and few of them can do it neatly
Richard
Marvin the Martian on 27 Jul 2009 at 11:54 am #
“In a passage where I can not find “God gives saving faith” and I can’t find “God makes pre determination” You guys are reading those words into the Word of God.
I am still trying to ask how can somebody add those texts?”
Vinod,
You do realize that the Bible can teach a concept implicitly as well as explicitly don’t you? For example, I challenge you to find where abortion is directly spoken against in scripture. I promise that you will not find anywhere within the pages of scripture a direct prohibition against abortion. Using your myopic hermeneutic, one would therefore have to conclude that because abortion isn’t explicitly stated as being wrong, it must be OK in God’s eyes. I don’t think any sane person would make such an argument though. But that doesn’t change the fact that all scriptural arguments against abortion require an extrapolation of a variety of texts.
That being said, I would posit that while it may be true that the phrase “God gives saving faith” doesn’t appear in the Bible, it doesn’t mean that the CONCEPT isn’t taught.
Richard on 27 Jul 2009 at 12:35 pm #
Mr. Martian,
Thank you. Thank you. Well said! There are some O’people in the U.S. government, however, who claim to follow Christ, and yet support abortion–even to the point of infanticide. The value of life does seem to slip past them.
Richard
Wm Tanksley on 27 Jul 2009 at 12:43 pm #
The question is not whether we can find the exact words you demand; the question is what the Bible teaches. The Bible clearly teaches over and over that God apportions faith to us; that salvation is of God, not of us; and that the honor for the faith we exercise is actually due to God.
If you were to be fair about your demand, you would first fulfill it yourself, by finding a passage that teaches that “God does not give saving faith”, or “You do not require God’s initiation in order to be saved.”
As of now, you have _nothing_ in favor of your position; not only do you have no verses that use the words you’ve chosen (which is the standard of proof you’re enforcing against us), the texts you’ve cited actually teach against what you claim the do, when read word-by-word.
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 27 Jul 2009 at 1:14 pm #
Wow. Post #259 is my error — my computer posted an old version of what I was writing, then disconnected from the Internet for a half hour (!). No, I don’t know how that happened, either.
The final version of the last paragraph is as follows (not edited; this was what was in my comment box when I pressed the back arrow after the web page reloaded); note the weaker claim I make that “the texts you cite do not teach what you claim” rather than “…teach against what you claim”.
As of now, you have _nothing_ in favor of your position; not only do you have no verses that use the words you’ve chosen (which is the standard of proof you’re enforcing against us), the texts you’ve cited at the very least do NOT teach what you claim they do, when read word-by-word (we would claim that several of those texts teach against what you claim, but let’s take this one step at a time).
-Wm
Alexander M. Jordan on 27 Jul 2009 at 1:26 pm #
Vinod,
You are continuing to misread John 6:54-65, in my opinion. When Jesus says in verse 65 “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father” He is referring back to His earlier statement to the disciples (John 6:44).
In both verses He is explaining why some do not believe. Jesus uses the phrase “come to Me” to mean come to believe in Me. He is saying very explicitly that no one can come (believe) unless it is the Father draws them (John 6:44)/it is granted to them by the Father(John 6:65).
To me His language is clear and not confusing. However you seem to be very much against accepting the truth that God is in control of who comes to know Him (but these verses show He grants the ability to come to Jesus and believe).
Now you asked for a verse that actually says that faith is a gift from God and I and others gave one to you: Ephesians 2:8. Yet you claim that we are misinterpreting this verse.
But if faith was our own doing, as a response to God’s grace, as you argue, then we would indeed have something to boast about. Because one could say that they responded to grace with faith, while someone else did not. But who gives the ability to respond in faith? You claim that it comes from the person themselves and that it is their responsibility alone. But if this is the case then they can take credit for their faith (through which they will be saved) and therefore they will have something they can boast about. This is simply incorrect. We cannot take credit for any aspect of our salvation, neither the grace that God gives, nor our response to that grace, and this is why no man can boast. Boasting is excluded on the grounds that one cannot take credit for something they have absolutely no part in.
I hope you can accept this answer, though it does seem unlikely. I have no desire to continue debating this point. The main reason I was raising it was in connection with Michael’s article, in relation to the following points:
1) Faith does not require 0% doubt in order to be true faith.
2) Human beings, being flawed and imperfect beings, cannot achieve perfect faith in this life.
3) Our ability to have any kind of faith at all comes from God, as is proven from Scripture.
4) Doubt is not good by itself, but it is not necessarily sin; it may be a temptation to sin, but it may also lead us to investigate the evidence in such a way as to find the truth.
Wm Tanksley on 27 Jul 2009 at 3:07 pm #
Your reading makes is sound like Jesus is saying that merely because some people are there who don’t believe — almost as though Jesus wanted those unbelieving people to hear those words. But that doesn’t make sense; Jesus actually wanted the believing people to hear his words, because they could understand them (and believe them!).
Therefore, there was meaning behind Jesus’ words, not just “I said these because there were some people here.” The meaning was that Jesus wanted the believers to understand when those unbelievers left, they left because they didn’t understand, and the reason they didn’t understand wasn’t because they were smarter (or stupider), but simply because it was not granted to them to come.
There is no mention of faith, but this is talking about believing and salvation; faith is clearly involved, because faith that saves includes belief (Heb 11:6), and accurate belief alone is not enough to save (Jas 2:19). And there is clearly mention of God making a predetermination, because the text specifically says (for example in 6:37-40) that the sequence is: Father gives; they come and believe; Christ raises on the last day. (Note that if you still don’t believe that “come” implies “believe”, see v.35.) This means that the Father gives before they come and believe.
Then we see Joh 6:65, which reverses the sense to rule out misinterpretations: nobody who isn’t permitted by the Father can possibly come. When Christ says this, John says that He was specifically thinking of some people who were not ever going to come to Christ — at least Judas, but John implies there are others.
You’re correct that it doesn’t mean “faith given”, but you’ll have to explain how someone can “come to Christ” and “believe” and be “given eternal life” without faith, in order to say that “granted” doesn’t imply “faith given”.
And as I’ve shown, it certainly does mean predetermination — specifically, God absolutely determines prior to that person’s coming to Christ, and anyone whom He does not so determine will not come.
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 27 Jul 2009 at 4:26 pm #
Can you explain what type of faith those verses are about, then? We can start by agreeing that Acts 17:31 is evidential faith, which is given to all without saving each and every one, and that is clear from the phrase that describes it; but what about all the other references to pistis in those verses?
9 gifts? There are several distinct lists of gifts; they add up to more than 9. You’re talking about the list of phanerosa (“manifestations”) in 1 Cor 12; the “gift of faith” here is a manifestation that (like the other manifestations) is given for the benefit of all.
In Romans, however, Paul is not talking about the manifestational gift of faith, but about the gift of prophecy — we know this because he says so. He doesn’t say “exercise the gift of prophecy only when you’re given the gift of faith”; he says to exercise it in measure with the faith you’re given. This faith is the same faith Paul talks about throughout the rest of Romans.
Do you have any reason why it would be a different faith?
On the contrary; this says that people should prophesy according to the measure of their faith, which directly states that people with less faith should also prophesy — and that those people are part of the Body of Christ!
You clearly seem to think that I don’t believe that people are given different amounts of faith, even though I’ve said otherwise. Why is that? In fact, my belief is that different amounts still allow salvation; it’s therefore clear that I believe that different amounts are _possible_. So… Why do you keep that strawman around?
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 27 Jul 2009 at 4:37 pm #
cheryl, thank you for asking. Sorry it took me a while to pull together a response.
I’m trying to interpret Eph 2; but while I’m doing that, of course, I must not contradict John 3:16 (or any other verse). But why do you claim I contradict it? You seem to think that it’s nonsense to say that “whoever has eternal life believes in Jesus”; but that doesn’t seem like nonsense to me.
John 17:3 — “And this is eternal life: that they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Knowing Jesus IS eternal life. Eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood IS eternal life (John 6).
Reversing the two isn’t incoherent, even though John 3:16 means what it says (and shouldn’t be reversed).
-Wm
Richard on 27 Jul 2009 at 4:51 pm #
This debate about “Christian doubt” has, necessarily, led us to explore the important, but unsolvable, tension between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. (BTW, directly to Michael Patton: Thank you for putting Christian authenticity and integrity on public display in your article. THAT is true discipleship.) Now (perhaps at some personal risk
) I have a question that, while still dealing with the subject matter, steps just slightly to the side: What do you think of the terms “the power of prayer” and “prayer works”? Notice that these common Christian terms still make us look at the current topic–but from a different window, perhaps on a different floor.
Oh…It’s probably best to be clear: Personally, I hate these terms–at least as much as Jesus hated the practice of merchandising in the Temple.
Richard
Wm Tanksley on 27 Jul 2009 at 5:40 pm #
Does the following answer your question? I don’t know what your question means… I hope it helps.
Eph 2:1 says “you were dead”, and is clearly talking about death in sin — which is on this Earth, since it’s part of being unsaved.
The word “wrath” I take from Eph 2:3, but this is in the context of “children of wrath”; it doesn’t mean that God poured His wrath on us when we were children of wrath, but it does mean that it would have been appropriate for God to have done so.
These don’t have “nothing” to do with eternity, but they are temporal. They must be, because God ended them by saving the saints at Ephesus (to whom Paul was writing).
I understand what you’re saying here. I’m just not sure what this has to do with our discussion. I agree; Rom 4 is indeed not limited to life on this earth; it refers briefly to life after death (Rom 4:17b), and it is part of an argument that Paul uses to apply to our justification to eternal life. But Rom 4 is about justification, and the problem with justification is that our lives on earth do not appear justified.
In Rom 4, Paul examines Abraham’s response (on Earth) to God’s promises, and how Abraham believed them (on Earth) and God fulfilled them (on Earth) solely because Abraham believed, BEFORE Abraham had ever followed the Law (on Earth) (Rom 4:10). Abraham hadn’t done what God required yet — and God justified him.
That’s actually reasonable, and I agree. I’m not reaching these conclusions by reading Romans 4; I’m reaching them by reading Ephesians 2. It’s fair of you to ask that my conclusions not contradict Romans (and every other passage); but it’s not reasonable to ask that the conclusions plainly evident in Ephesians 2 be explicitly taught in every other passage (although you have reason to be suspicious if they’re not present in ANY other passage, since that hints that I might be misinterpreting).
So why are you challenging my interpretation — do you think I’m contradicting Rom 4, or is there some other reason? I don’t see what you mean…
-Wm
The Value of Doubt « Thinking Out Loud on 27 Jul 2009 at 5:53 pm #
[...] To comment on this, go here. [...]
Wm Tanksley on 27 Jul 2009 at 6:18 pm #
Actually, no; I’m saying that there is _no_ disconnect; that a person has that faith exactly because God has drawn them.
I affirm that we are drawn by the Father and the Spirit, not by our fleshly will. I deny that we have no control or responsibility.
Thank you — but look. Here are the characteristics he listed:
1. “hyper-Calvinists tend to stress the secret (or decretive) will of God over His revealed (or preceptive) will.”
2. “a denial that the gospel message includes any sincere proposal of divine mercy to sinners in general.”
3. “encourages introspection in the search to know whether or not one is elect.”
In response to 1: I haven’t addressed the comparison between decrees and precepts at all, so there’s no way you could accuse me of this.
In response to 2: I’ve not addressed the Gospel message. Ditto.
In response to 3: I’m arguing against the concept that introspection is healthy (messages #150, #200).
Any imbalanced teaching will do that. In Vinod’s case, he’s teaching that only perfectly formed faith, raised by the human himself, can ever be part of a truly saved person; therefore, any doubt must be met with hard work, and will produce conviction of one’s lack of salvation. Vinod has the mirror error of hypercalvinism, but it produces the same result.
Don’t my arguments against this demonstrate that I don’t believe it?
Bingo. The problem with false doctrines of salvation isn’t that believing them makes people lose their salvation; rather, it makes them lose their _assurance_. And that’s a crime.
-Wm
cheryl u on 27 Jul 2009 at 9:40 pm #
Wm,
Regarding # 266, I asked the questions I did because I believe the verses in Romans specifically contradict your contention that we are saved from wrath and death before we have faith. And as a matter of fact, I think Eph 2 does also as it says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. Sounds to me like that says that faith comes first also.
mbaker on 28 Jul 2009 at 1:08 am #
I think it is wonderful that God, in His great mercy, gave us a choice in the first place to have faith in Him, whether we doubt Him or not. That to me is the ultimate grace. Otherwise, He could just as well condemn and sentence us all to hell, without the benefit of the cross, whether we believe in predestination or not.
gary on 28 Jul 2009 at 2:55 am #
Hi all,
I readily admit to not having read all the comments in detail, but browsed through them.
Perhaps someone has already made the distinction that there’s a difference between epistemological doubt and psychological doubt.
Here epistemological doubt pertains to disbelief about a proposition or group of propositions. About their truthfulness. So I have a serious doubt, ie “I doubt that God could make a rock he could not lift” [ I doubt this because it pits two aspects of God's nature against each other. If I remember the answer it was something about His Creative abililty ( Omnipotence,) and his Sovereign ability. ]
So I can have questions about certain propositions, and these are epsitemological questions which I attribute to my own lack of understanding and indeed my createdness, since I am not all knowing.
But I would point out, this kind of doubt does not extend to doubting God’s existence, because that “conviction” has come about through the Work of the Holy Spirit. ( Which i would argue involves a truth statement, eg “Jesus is God” coupled with ontological reality – ie our being created in God’s image )
On the other hand, it’s here for convenience we might also talk about pyschological doubt. Some people going through a period of personal pain due to the loss of a child or partner may express psychological doubt that God cares about what they are going through. They lack certitude about some aspect of God, perhaps because they have not considered previously this aspect of God’s nature and His revelation about it.
Any ideas?
Gary
gary on 28 Jul 2009 at 3:02 am #
BTW Michael,
To use John the baptists questioning of Jesus as whether “he is the one” is perhaps a bit out of context.
John the baptist at that point wasn’t a “christian” in NT terminology. He was one looking for the promised Messiah and his question showed his faith in the revealed will of God in the Old Testament. It showed belief in God, not doubt.
Where he might have lacked was in understanding the role and actions of the Messiah, understanding that Jesus’ miracles and teaching are confirmation of Jesus as the Mesiah.
What we see in John the Baptist isn’t a problem of doubt as such but lack of his own understanding?
in Christ
Gary
Joshua Allen on 28 Jul 2009 at 8:32 am #
@gary – I don’t think anyone here is talking about epistemological doubt.
Wm Tanksley on 28 Jul 2009 at 1:06 pm #
Did you feel that my answers clarified the matter? Would you interact with them so that we can discuss the matter?
Salvation is not a simple flipping of a switch. There are many aspects of our situation that we have to be saved from. The first link of salvation is salvation from death, where God changes our nature from “dead in sin” to “alive to Him”; this is the salvation from death. He also saves us from being “children of wrath” by nature, which saves us from His just wrath (which is currently being held back thanks to His longsuffering). He also draws us to Christ, and we come to Him, believe in Him, eats His flesh and drink His blood, and by doing that become part of Him, and He of us. There are other aspects of salvation, and other ways to look at it.
One passage that’s often cited is Rom 8:28-30. I don’t want to force you to read this in “Calvinist mode”; please see it as a list of the factors that go into our salvation. God’s foreknowledge starts the chain (please, hold the arguments), then predestination to be conformed to the image of Christ, then the calling, then the justification — and justification is linked to our faith, so this is the first point in the chain that necessarily comes after our response of believing faith (which can only be a response to the calling). So God does enact our salvation prior to our faith — at least temporally (because His forknowledge and predestination are at least temporal) and possibly causally as well (because His calling us seems to be required in John 6 in order to trigger our faith).
I don’t want to force Calvinism here… This seems like a simple, straightforward interpretation, compatible with the typical Arminian reading that God’s foreknowledge is a simple seeing of the fact that we will respond.
Now, I’m not arguing that faith isn’t required. That’s clearly taught; my point is that our ability to have faith is actually part of our salvation. Without God’s actions, we would not have faith in the first place. Both Calvinists and Arminians share a belief that Christians are saved, individually and collectively, from total depravity so that they can respond in faith to God. (Arminians also believe that non-Christians are saved by God from total depravity, but this is still an act of God.)
Am I being unclear or unfair? If all is well, I’d like to see you interact with my interpretations of the verses you’ve brought up — both Romans and Ephesians, if possible.
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 28 Jul 2009 at 1:19 pm #
I’m not so sure. At that point he’d already baptized Christ, proclaimed Him publicly… It’s true that he wasn’t a Christian by the filling of the Holy Spirit, since Pentecost hadn’t come, so he was an Old Covenant believer.
The problem with this is that John’s asking for confirmation of what he’d already proclaimed.
This is something we also sometimes lack, and Jesus’ answer to John is sometimes useful to us.
It seems clear that the only thing that can cause doubt in a Christian is actually a lack of understanding — because in reality, God does exist and did save us. (An unbeliever can doubt also, of course — but that’s not only caused by a lack of understanding, but by a lack of repentance!)
Actually, I’m suddenly reminded of Christ’s response to the people who asked whether tragedies were signs of God’s judgments — “unless you repent, you shall perish likewise.” Maybe doubt is just another chance to repent and throw ourselves back in God’s arms.
-Wm
Richard on 28 Jul 2009 at 9:37 pm #
To Most,
Who here believes that “prayer works” or believes in “the power of prayer”? Come on. Don’t be shy. I mean, after all, how is this discussion about “Christian doubt” (God’s sovereignty vs. man’s responsibility) at all important, or even relevant, if we ignore the fact that God answers our prayers–demonstratively beyond doubt?!? But, do be careful with your answer if Arminius is one of your heroes
.
In the same context: If a world-wide Christian “prayer chain” was praying to God to heal your 14 year-old daughter from imminent death (she has some horrible disease, let’s say) would YOU ask Him to ignore all those prayers, if–by HIS wisdom, and by HIS love, and in HIS sovereignty–HE thought it best that your child should die!?! Woud you pray that prayer to God beside your sleeping, dying little girl? I hope you would. I hope I would! Sometimes our rigid theology and God’s loving sovereignty do seem to meet life together, don’t they?!?
Richard
cheryl u on 29 Jul 2009 at 11:03 am #
William,
I honestly don’t have the time or energy to go any further with this discussion. My life has been and continues to be “a zoo” lately. And I am just too tired to go any further with this. I think it unlikely that we would ever come to agreement on our interpretations of these verses anyway as we are definitely seeing things here from totally different perspectives.
Wm Tanksley on 29 Jul 2009 at 1:06 pm #
God bless you with your zoo/life, and give you peace… Thank you for discussing this as far as you did with charity and persistence.
-Wm
gary on 30 Jul 2009 at 5:16 am #
Hi WM Tanksley
In reply to your comments at #75
you seem partially in agreement with some things i said, however I don’t think you grasped the point I vaguely made. That is that John the baptists comments to Jesus must be seen in the context in which they appear. so one must even if they approach John’s comments along with Luke’s comments in some sort of chronology as regarding his ministry, understand What John was saying about his expectation of the coming messiah, and the teaching given us through a specific Gospel as to how Jesus responded to that teaching of John the Bapt.
So many people these days try to understand the Gospels by seeing them merely as chronological histories of the life and teaching of Jesus, but as I frequently point out that if this were so we’d only need one. the point is that they are primarily gospels, each teaching something specific and needed. Preachers have failed the people of God by synthesising the “stories” or events found in all four Gospels into one “sermon”. It is the serious defect of using a parallel Bible.
John the Baptist, the preeminant Old testament prophet declared the coming of the Messiah and judgment. The “day of the Lord”. and as for many of Israel in that day, their desire was for a political redeemer, not a saviour from sin. Does that mean John doubted who Jesus was? Not in context, He understood rightly Jesus as sacrifice, the lamb of God as we are told in John’s Gospel. But John seems to have expected a Messiah who would return government to Israel who would rule, in essence the conquoring king of Isaiah 1-39. True this would be what the Messiah would do, but not yet.
When we read later in Luke, after earlier reading John the Baptist’s message of judgment and repentance, we see not doubt in his question as to whether Jesus is the one, but his need to understand properly what the Messiah was going to do. Even He only had a partial understanding, one which i would then be reluctant to categorise as doubt.
Many Jewish interpreters of Isaiah see two messiahs there, the mighty king Isaiah 1-39 and a suffering servant figure Isa 40-66. But Luke teaches that they are the one person.
Luke’s point in chapter 7 where he speaks of John the baptist, is first to speak of two healings, that of the centurion’s son, a gentile, and the poor widow of nain’s son. the point being salvation [ esp from physical death] comes to both the mighty and rich and powerful and the weak and poor in the same way – it is a gift from God. not by works or anything else. Salvation comes by faith, faith in Christ.
Notably for John the Baptist, the miracles of Jesus here, are just as Isa prophesied of the messiah and cover both mighty king section and suffering servant figure sections of Isaiah. Isa 35:3-5; 61:1-3.
See for a fuller explanation of this the great book by David Gooding, ‘According to Luke’ IVP1987 Eerdmans.
I’m only scratching the surface here, giving you the general lay of the…
Jason on 30 Jul 2009 at 10:02 am #
Well written and right on. Only one correction that you are most likely already aware of, the word “though” is most likely meant to be through in this sentence “Sometimes it will show itself though particular habitual sins. Sometimes it is our own pride.”
I believe from personal experience and talking with others that doubt, most of the time, manifest itself from lack of knowledge. My faith and belief for the most part was based on a general belief of those around, especially since I grew up in church with Christian parents. That type of faith and belief is easily shaken, causing doubt. I just recently started reading and studying God’s word for my own understanding from which to build my faith and belief in God and the saving power of Jesus.
I have started this journey of establishing my own belief and faith thanks to The Theology Program at Reclaiming the Mind Ministries.
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/?q=/ttp/home
Vinod Isaac on 30 Jul 2009 at 8:48 pm #
Hi Alexander,
You keep ignoring the verses I gave you. Let me try one more time
John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
John 6:27 “Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Verse 27 Jesus is asking people to labor for evaerlasting life.
It is a commandment Jesus is giving.
In Verse 28 they ask specifically what labor they are supposed to do.
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Verse 29 Jesus makes clear that this labor is believing in Him.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Verse 30,31 They ask for a sign. Probably they learned Bible in theological college where you learned Bible. Jesus was asking them to believe but they didn’t want to believe unless faith is given to them.
John 6:30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
John 6:31 “Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
Jesus tells them He Himself is the bread of God.
Verse 34 they ask for the bread.
John 6:34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
Jesus repeats “He who comes to Me shall never hunger” and “he who believes in Me shall never thirts”. Why He needed to say that? He could have said plainly that Father doesn’t want to give so don’t even try it. Why keep saying that they need to believe?
John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
Verse 36 again He puts the blame on them that they “do not believe”. Well if they do not have control on believing then why make that statement? If somebody knows that it is beyond their control then saying something like this is definately wrong. I mean first you tell them to labor for everlasting life and tell them to believe and then tell them sorry Father had already decided not to give. Doesn’t make sense to me.
John 6:36 “But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
Now come to verse 37.
John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Read verse 37 in comparison to John 17:12
John 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
What do you read? Don’t you read that “son of perdition” was given by the Father yet he is lost? Anyway that’s another topic.
I will say read John 17…
Vinod Isaac on 30 Jul 2009 at 9:00 pm #
I will say read John 17 and it will make “Granted by Father” more clear.
17 Verse 2 and 3 if you read you will be tempted to interpret the way you are doing it. But wait read it carefully.
John 17:2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Who are given by the Father to the Son? Verse 11 gives the answer that Jesus is talking about the desciples. Note “I come to you” and “these are in the world”
John 17:11 “Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Then go to verse 20,21 that makes clear that others who will believe in Jesus through their (desciple’s) word. Read “that they also may be one in Us” Does that tell you with clarity that Father does not make pre determination instead they become one through their believing? If Father had made pre determination Jesus would not have prayed saying, “those who will believe”
John 17:20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
John 17:21 “that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Believe me if God makes pre determination then asking people to preach the gospel and asking people to believe would be the most unethical thing to do. It will be like putting up a show with outcome already decided and players are just faking it up.
Alexander M. Jordan on 31 Jul 2009 at 12:51 am #
Vinod:
Your comments to me and others about where we learned the Bible (theology school or seminary) are inappropriate and irrelevant to your argument. You imply that your interpretation of the Bible is somehow superior because you did NOT go to seminary?
But the fact is that I myself have not (yet) gone to seminary. If your argument is correct it doesn’t matter whether you or I learned the Bible in seminary or outside of seminary. You only show the weakness of your arguments with these sort of comments.
These verses you quote from John (John 6:36-37, John 17: 2), as well as other verses I have previously pointed out, (John 6:44, John 6:65) all say that the ones who come to Jesus are the same ones the Father gives! Who comes to Jesus? Those the Father gives to Jesus. These verses state this over and over again.
So what “does not make sense” is your interpretation. You say:
“Believe me if God makes pre determination then asking people to preach the gospel and asking people to believe would be the most unethical thing to do. It will be like putting up a show with outcome already decided and players are just faking it up.”
But these verses are saying exactly this– that God the Father makes a determination and gives certain people to the Son, and these are the ones that come to Jesus and believe and are given eternal life and who can never be snatched out of the Father’s hand and cannot be lost.
The fact that they such persons come to believe by means of the preaching of the word is something God also ordains.
We are commanded to preach the gospel, which God uses to draw those whom He has chosen to Himself. For example, in Acts 18:9-10, God encourages Paul to go on teaching and evangelizing with these words:
And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people.”.
In other words God had chosen people in this city to be His people, and Paul was going to reach them and they were going to be saved by means of the gospel. As the ESV Study Bible comments:
Acts 18:10–11 gives helpful insight into Paul’s understanding of God’s providence and predestination in relation to human responsibility for preaching the gospel. Though God had told Paul, “I have many in this city who are my people,” indicating that many in Corinth would come to faith in Christ, this did not lead Paul to conclude that he had no further part to play. Rather, Paul stayed a year and six months, longer than he stayed at any city except Ephesus, preaching the gospel in order that through his preaching those whom God had chosen would come to faith. Predestination implied successful evangelism.
(continued)
Alexander M. Jordan on 31 Jul 2009 at 12:57 am #
Or, read Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
You point out many verses about the necessity of believing, as if this proves that people are able to believe on their own, apart from divine intervention. Jesus says the opposite. He explains that those who don’t believe are those to whom it has not been granted by the Father (John 6:65).
As Ephesians 2 teaches, “We (believers) were all dead in trespasses and sins in which we once walked, as we followed the course of this world, and followed the prince of the power of the air. We all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
People dead in trespasses and sins and in captivity to Satan need God to rescue them from their captivity to sin which blinds them to the truth of the gospel. So although we ought to believe the gospel because it is true and right, we have no power within our sinful selves to do so. This makes salvation all the more glorifying to God– it is an act of unmerited grace and mercy. We are saved by believing, but if believing was something we could conjure up on our own then God would not receive all the glory for salvation and we could boast about our faith in God. But we can never boast– for faith is His gift to us, not our gift to Him.
Again it is may be difficult to understand that the Bible teaches that God holds us responsible to believe and yet that we cannot believe apart from His granting it– but since this is what the Bible teaches, we must accept it.
Vinod Isaac on 31 Jul 2009 at 7:42 am #
Hi Alexander,
You wrote:
“But these verses are saying exactly this– that God the Father makes a determination and gives certain people to the Son, and these are the ones that come to Jesus and believe and are given eternal life and who can never be snatched out of the Father’s hand and cannot be lost.”
John 6 says Father gives or grants people to the Son. You are adding “pre determination” part. That adding to scripture is what changes the meaning.
John 6 doesn’t say when Father grants a person to Jesus. You again ignored John 17 where it is very clear that when people believe then Father adds them so that they may be one.
Those who had been granted by Father were those who were with Jesus. If Granted meant pre determination then in John 17 Jesus would have said John 17:20,21 differently.
John 17:20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
John 17:21 “that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Did you read John 17? Distinction between who are already granted and who are going to be granted is very clear there.
Same thing is in John 1:12
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
John 1:12 is very clear “as many as received Him” “to them He gave”. Your granted is right there and it happens when a person receives Christ. It doesn’t happen by pre determination.
rayner markley on 31 Jul 2009 at 9:19 am #
As I see it, the Holy Spirit causes people to realize their sin and the need for salvation, but He doesn’t ‘give people faith.’ Faith comes when people cast themselves upon the mercy of God as a result of conviction. Thus, God doesn’t give faith directly; people have to do something first. If God simply gave out faith, He would be cooking His outcomes, and that wouldn’t provide any particular glory for Him. Greater glory comes from free acts, not ones made under duress.
I have a notion that Paul was strongly influenced by his personal experience. There is no indication that he had any desire for Christ prior to being stopped on the road to Damascus. Predestination may be the only explanation he could see for God to have chosen him and not others. The heavenly vision brought him to conviction, out of which faith grew. For most of us, however, the Holy Spirit works not with visions but through the Gospel.
steve martin on 31 Jul 2009 at 9:23 am #
Rayner,
So then faith is dependent on what ‘we do’?
The bible tells us that faith is a gift of God.
When Jesus speaks with Niccodemus He says that faith (being re-born) is like the wind, it blows where it will.
cheryl u on 31 Jul 2009 at 9:29 am #
I think I am seeing part of the difference in understanding of these Scriptures right here in this comment: “When Jesus speaks with Niccodemus He says that faith (being re-born) is like the wind, it blows where it will”.
Calvinists equate being re-born with receiving faith, those of an Arminian persuasion don’t.
And Steve, I don’t think saying that being reborn equals being given faith is going to convince Vinod of what you are all saying.
There are just too many verses out there that speak of faith coming before justification, being given life, etc.
steve martin on 31 Jul 2009 at 9:31 am #
Cheryl,
I think you may be right.
Wm Tanksley on 31 Jul 2009 at 10:39 am #
Vinod:
Actually, the pre determination is explicit in the text: Jesus says that only those whom God has given (past tense) to Christ will come (future tense) to Him. God determined who He will give; He gives; they come. That’s pre determination.
Yes it does — it says that the Father has to give a person to Christ *before* that person may possibly come to Him.
-Wm
Vinod Isaac on 31 Jul 2009 at 11:01 am #
Hi Steve,
You wrote:
“The bible tells us that faith is a gift of God.”
I have been asking for reference and have got none so far. All I got is misinterpretation of verses. Ofcourse I am talking about saving faith not about gifts of Holy Spirit.
And as cheryl said yes I don’t see “re-born” equal to “giving faith”.
John 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
seems to me is talking about the state of a born again person.
Look at few verses down
John 3:11 “Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
John 3:12 “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
There again Jesus is making clear that responsibility of believing is on the part of people not given by God.
Vinod Isaac on 31 Jul 2009 at 11:16 am #
Hi Wm,
John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
In verse 37 it is present continuous tense “gives Me”.
John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
In verse 65 it is past tense. But even 1 second ago is past tense so it doesn’t need to be pre determined.
And these verse just show involvement of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the salvation of a person.
Holy Spirit is also involved in conviction and note that it is for people who “do not believe”
John 16:8 “And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9 “of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
So Holy Spirit constantly works in convicting.
Father works in teaching
John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
Every thing is to draw that person toward Jesus. But giving faith I don’t find anywhere in the Bible.
That is why preachers are there. Every time they preach, Holy Spirit tries to convict and Father tries to teach. Person has his free will and he can refuse to learn.
Read “Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” in John 6:45.
I don’t find anywhere that will suggest that Father gives faith or Father pre determines.
steve martin on 31 Jul 2009 at 11:17 am #
Vinod,
“The bible tells us that faith is a gift of God.”
I have been asking for reference and have got none so far. All I got is misinterpretation of verses.
Ephesians 2:8
“You are saved by grace, by faith; and this is NOT your own doing, but a gift of God.”
I don’t know how it could be any clearer than that.
Wm Tanksley on 31 Jul 2009 at 11:21 am #
There are four serious textual problems with your reading of John 17.
First, Jesus is obviously not using the terms “given to me” in the same sense in the two passages. In John 6, Jesus is specific that nothing can possibly take anyone whom the Father has given Him, and that He will raise all of them up on the last day. In John 17:12, Christ accepts that one of the ones He was given was lost, but he was “destined for destruction.” These would be direct contradictions if the two passages were intended to teach the same things about the Father’s giving.
Second, Jesus is not speaking of the same group in both passages. In John 6, the group appears to be universal; He uses “everyone” and “no one” frequently. In John 17, He is speaking about a group which is almost certainly only the Apostles, since although in John 17:12 He says that only one given to Him was lost, in John 6:66 many of His disciples in general left Him disillusioned at His teachings. There is a clear distinction between the objects of His prayer in John 17:6-19 and in John 17:20-23; the latter is specifically the people who hear secondhand what Jesus taught and believe on Him. Thus, John 6 is universal to all people, while John 17 is specific to a few groups of people (and doesn’t even mention the people who were taught directly by Jesus but didn’t believe on Him; it probably doesn’t include the people who were taught directly by Jesus, believed on Him, but weren’t themselves Apostles).
Third, the only possible sequence of events I can find in John 17 directly contradicts your claims about how people believe THEN are added to Christ. In John 17:6-8, we see that God owned certain people, He gave them to Christ, Christ told them the words that God had given Him, and they accepted those words and believed that God had sent Christ. Now, Christ telling those people the words of God _must_ precede those people accepting the words and believing that Jesus was sent from God; therefore, God giving those people to Christ preceded them believing that He was sent from God.
Fourth, your only actual attempt at exegesis in this passage doesn’t actually read the text reasonably. You claim that John 17:20-21 means that
…but this passage doesn’t mention that this latter group is “granted later” or “granted before” or granted at all. You then attempt to pull out of this by claiming that some phrase in John 17:22 means being “given to Me”, but that again isn’t in the text; in fact, I can’t even tell which “one with Us” or “In me” or “I in them” you intend to cite, since none of them are even close.
-Wm
Vinod Isaac on 31 Jul 2009 at 11:24 am #
Rayner,
Paul is talking about God has a plan for every person. God pre determines a plan and a purpose for each of us. It is up to us to walk on that plan. He has given us free will and we use the free will to rebell against Him.
Isa 30:1 “Woe to the rebellious children,” says the LORD, “Who take counsel, but not of Me, And who devise plans, but not of My Spirit, That they may add sin to sin;
C Michael Patton on 31 Jul 2009 at 11:29 am #
Folks, let us return the the original topic if this is going to continue. It has strayed quite a bit.
Thanks so much.
Wm Tanksley on 31 Jul 2009 at 11:31 am #
This is irrelevant to our discussion; “to them He gave” doesn’t mean the same thing as “You have given them to Me.” We’re discussing what it means for the Father to give a person to Christ, not what it means for the Father to give something to us.
-Wm
Vinod Isaac on 31 Jul 2009 at 11:35 am #
Hi Steve,
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
I don’t read faith as gift of God, I read there grace as gift of God. And from passage it is clear that grace comes through faith.
If God was giving faith Jesus would not say what He said to Nicodemus
John 3:12 “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
steve martin on 31 Jul 2009 at 11:37 am #
Thanks Vinod. I give up.
Vinod Isaac on 31 Jul 2009 at 11:49 am #
Hi CMP,
I think discussion was still on the topic of doubt vs faith. Unless one gets it that believing is one’s own responsibility there is no way one can understand about doubt and faith.
Because if it is God’s responsibilty then there is no need of an article on doubt or faith because whatever is happening will happen regardless of what anybody does.
Well I received following email.
“We have been receiving complaints that your comments on the Parchment and Pen blog are disruptive, arrogant, and in violation to the rules. We love to have you on the blog engaging, but only if you do so with gentleness and respect without too much content and keeping on topic.”
When people can not handle truth that is what happens. I don’t know who complained but whoever did does not want to hear truth.
Wm Tanksley on 31 Jul 2009 at 12:19 pm #
Actually, that’s not true, although I understand why you’d think so. Calvinists equate the second birth/born again with being made alive.
That’s true; I don’t think that passage is relevant to the questions being raised.
I agree that faith causes justification, but not that faith causes being given life. (Citation, please?)
The real topic here is whether doubt prevents justification or keeping life
. Vinod seems to think — if I read him right — that it does: doubt proves less than 100% faith, which means you aren’t saved. Furthermore, less than perfect faith means you have to work harder. Please correct me, Vinod; I need to understand your argument in brief, if possible.
I believe that ANY faith means salvation, and less than perfect faith means you have a ways to go in order to be conformed to the image of Christ — but your faith (even the tiny stuff you have) is itself a proof to you that you WILL be conformed to His image.
-Wm
steve martin on 31 Jul 2009 at 12:26 pm #
Also, when Jesus asked Peter, “who do you say that I am?”
Jesus said “blessed are you Simon Peter for flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven.”
Vinod Isaac on 31 Jul 2009 at 12:47 pm #
Hi Wm,
Yes one need 100% faith. It is possible that one can have 100% faith to get saved but may not have any faith to receive a miracle from the Lord. It is possible that one may believe Jesus heals from sickness but may not have saving faith.
It is possible that with less than 100% faith one may step into to try out and God will respond to that first step. These repeatitive interactions can help increase faith.
Wm Tanksley on 31 Jul 2009 at 12:50 pm #
I guess we now have to tie this back in to the point of the post… Once someone has faith, how does doubt affect things? Should a person who’s feeling doubt _also_ start to question their salvation? More positively, what should they do: should they start working to measure their level of faith, do something to increase it, and repeat until the doubts go away?
Obviously, I think that faith is a gift of God, part of the whole gift of salvation; our part in salvation is to exercise that faith (remembering, with fear and trembling, that it is God who works within us both to will and to do His good pleasure). Therefore I don’t think that monitoring faith or working to increase faith is a reasonable response; I think that working to _show_ your actual current faith is correct, and praying for more is correct, and trying to discover the truth about your doubts is correct.
I don’t understand… Are you saying that when Paul wrote about predestination, he actually meant what Calvinists think he did, but Paul was _wrong_? (I hope I misunderstood.)
-Wm
cheryl u on 31 Jul 2009 at 12:52 pm #
William,
Think we have been down this same road before and I said then I really don’t have time or energy to go into it any more. And I still don’t. So please don’t expect me to get into any big long conversations with you about this at this time. I am just going to quote some verses that certainly sound to me like they are saying faith comes before life and leave it at that. Feel free to leave any rebuttal you want but I doubt I will have time to respond.
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” John 5:24
“But these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” John 20:31
“Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.” I Timothy 1:16
Alexander M Jordan on 31 Jul 2009 at 12:58 pm #
Hi Vinod:
There is mystery in this process of doubt and faith that you do not seem to acknowledge. You make this very black and white– faith means no doubt and faith is entirely man’s responsibility. Behind your argument is the assumption that unless faith (believing in God for salvation and believing His Word) is man’s responsibility alone, then he cannot be held responsible by God for whether or not he possesses and acts in faith.
But the assumption is unbiblical. Jesus holds us responsible for believing but at the same time says no one comes to Him and believes except it is granted by the Father.
You seem so determined to hold on to the assumption described above that you interpret the passages we have been discussing in contradiction to what they are actually saying.
Also for you it seems faith means having 0% doubt, and that faith can never co-exist with doubt. But the only One who had perfect faith and never doubted is the One who is perfect– our Lord Jesus. We are not perfect beings, therefore our faith may waver or we at times display doubt. This does not make our faith inauthentic, just as when the disciples at times doubted they were still saved men through their faith in Jesus.
Can you really say Vinod, that your faith has never wavered at any time in regard to any biblical truth? Does not our faith progress and grow stronger, as we mature as believers? If your faith has sometimes wavered and been less than 100%, did that mean that you were no longer saved?
I am glad that the Lord understands that at times I am weak in faith. While I am responsible to grow and mature in my faith (1 Peter 2:11, 2 Peter 1: 5-11), the Lord is also patiently working in me, sometimes by trials, to test my faith and make it pure (1 Peter 1:6-9, Phil 1:6).
Vinod Isaac on 31 Jul 2009 at 1:38 pm #
Hi Alexander,
There is no mystery in it if you read it as it is written. On the other hand we do not have anything unless it is granted by God. Our brain, our ability to believe or reject, free will every thing is given by God.
If God just takes away our ability to think or to make decision we will not have that ability.
But pre determination is not what those passages say.
You wrote:
Can you really say Vinod, that your faith has never wavered at any time in regard to any biblical truth? Does not our faith progress and grow stronger, as we mature as believers? If your faith has sometimes wavered and been less than 100%, did that mean that you were no longer saved?
I have always said that there are different messures of faith. So yes my faith wavers and when It does I know it is not a good thing and I need to work on it.
Yes our faith progresses and grows stronger. That’s what I was saying that we need to work on it. We need to believe and not doubt.
Anyway this is my last post on this perticular topic. I don’t want to drag it forever. Specially in light of complaints.
Thanks to all who participated and who had patience to read what I had to say. Thanks and God bless.
Alexander M Jordan on 31 Jul 2009 at 2:41 pm #
Hi Vinod:
OK, I probably misunderstood some of your earlier comments. I am glad to hear you say that you agree that for believers faith progresses and grows stronger. But if this is true your initial response to this post seems like an over-reaction. Because this post was not about justifying doubt but was saying what you are now agreeing with– that faith is progresses or grows over time and doubts may be part of this process.
If as you say “we do not have anything unless it is granted by God” then is not faith also included in that? Yes, God doesn’t take away our ability to choose or to think or to use our brains. But He does give light to those He has chosen, that they may see the truth of His word:
“I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him”
John 10:21-22
“I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,a stumbling block and a retribution for them;10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”
Romans 11:4-10
10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Matthew 13:10
Blessings to you as well. May He lead us all into purer faith that expresses itself in deeper Christian love.
Wm Tanksley on 31 Jul 2009 at 2:59 pm #
Greek doesn’t have a present progressive; it’s simply a present active indicative. It might or might not be progressive, neither is required. Either way, “the Father gives me” happens before “will come to me”, because “will come to me” is future.
What do you mean by “pre-determined”? It was your word, and clearly it means something different to you than it does to me. To me, “pre-determined” means what the sum of its parts mean: determined before. 1 second before is still before.
Unfortunately, you’re not offered an option; once you’re drawn, you will believe in Christ; and once you’ve believed, you will be raised up on the last day.
And what does that imply for doubt, the topic of this post? Well, I think it matters whether we think that faith is God’s gift or our own creation. If faith is God’s gift, doubt is a temptation that attacks the outward working of your salvation, perhaps weakening you; if faith is our own creation, doubt implies a failure (perhaps the same as fractional unbelief), and attacks the very foundation of your belief, perhaps even destroying your ability to save yourself.
EVERYONE who has heard from the Father comes to Christ (John 6:45). In other words, when people hear from the Father, THEY LISTEN. Contrary to your claim, the Father doesn’t “try” to teach, the Holy Spirit doesn’t “try” to convict of sin — they do it, and it’s done.
-Wm
rayner markley on 31 Jul 2009 at 8:32 pm #
Steve: ‘ So then faith is dependent on what ‘we do’?
The bible tells us that faith is a gift of God.’
I see a distinction between having faith and exercising faith. Even supposing that God gives faith, it doesn’t accomplishment anything unless we act on it.
Wm:
If predestination is what Paul meant in his teaching, I can see how his own experience might have led him to it. I don’t know whether that doctrine is right or wrong. One can doubt predestination as a doctrine; many Christians do.
mbaker on 01 Aug 2009 at 8:27 am #
Wm,
I think what has been forgotten here is God’s common grace. As Creator, He gives grace to all creation, but He does not save those without faith in Him as Savior.
However, This post is not about having faith in Him, but about doubting Him in some way that cause us to have a crisis of faith. All humans doubt. That is part of our nature. It began with Adam and Eve in the garden. When they had a choice between having faith in God’s wisdom, when it was questioned by satan, they doubted it enough to disobey God and caused the fall of the entire human race. That was doubt taken to the extreme.
As I pointed out in an earlier thread if our faith were blind, without discernment, we would all soon be dead. Doubt seems to be a built in safeguard against making harmful mistakes. I have faith in God, for example, but I wouldn’t go the wrong way on the freeway or jump off a building, and think I would have any different outcome than a non-believer, just because God had given me faith. jesus demonstrated that when He refused to jump of the precipice, when satan taunted Him to prove He was God.
So doubt can also be a good thing. As I also pointed out before, it can lead to a quest for truth. Taken to the other extreme, however, it can also lead to losing our faith, both in God and other people. I think we have to recognize that even those of us with the greatest faith are going to doubt at some point of our Christian lives, and chalk that up to our human nature. We have faith sure, but doubt makes us ask, and wisely so, if what we are believing in is real and true.
For those who are doubting to the point like the person CMP is talking about above, however, we have to stop throwing platitudes at them, and listen. There is usually a reason, I’ve found in my years of ministry, caused by another human being, more often than not. I’ve observed that it’s very often the ungodly actions of another Christian which makes a believer start to doubt how much influence God really has. Take what has happened in the church with the widespread sexual abuse by trusted leaders This would cause a person of the greatest faith to doubt how strong God is in these folks lives that they could not only perpetrate such a thing, under the auspices of His name, but try to cover it up.
Nope, things haven’t changed much since Adam and Eve, as far as human beings go. Until Christ comes back, the questions and the doubt are going to arise. We cannot simply dismiss those who have valid doubts, because they don’t ‘have’ enough faith. Arguing from your premise, it would seem that God is at fault for not giving someone enough in the first place.
Vinod Isaac on 01 Aug 2009 at 10:06 pm #
Just one more note on the email I received from Parchment and Pen.
I just stumbled on about page and found that CMP is owner of it so the email I received must be from CMP.
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/about-parchment-and-pen/
Just wanted to let everyone know who I believe was behind sending the email.
C Michael Patton on 02 Aug 2009 at 12:18 am #
Vinod,
I just caught up on some of your comments. Please do not comment any more on this post. If you do, you will be suspended from the blog.
Please read the rules before posting again.
Folks, I am sorry I let things get this far. It is impossible for me to keep up on all the comments.
I do hope you continue to find this blog a useful place to discuss significant issues without feeling like things are going in circles or that people do not respect the rules. If this becomes the case, it would be better not to support such a place at all. I understand that. I will try to do better at keeping things moderated.
I thank all the P&P regulars who do contribute in a productive respectful way that is not arrogant.
Vinod, please don’t respond to this in any way. This is the last word on the matter here.
The discussion can continue on topic if you so please.
Richard on 02 Aug 2009 at 9:39 am #
Hi Vinod,
I do agree with Michael–which means I DO NOT agree with your apparent–and impossible–attempt to be worthy before a sovereign God, but I do understand and applaud (especially these days–you have no idea!!!) your need to express yourself with passion. If we are silent about what we believe to be the truth, what makes us any different than Ananias or Sapphira? All Christians should be passionate—at least as much as Michael Patton! (I do thank God for you, Michael!!!) The problem, my friend, is that, while most of us hold tightly to our opinions, we only sew a few of them into our skin–because truth is more important than being right. You do seem to fear being wrong. If you find my words constructive, then also remember—know–that God is not concerned with “nit-picking” the details of our theology (I don’t think, for e.g., that the “thief on the cross” had much time to develop a “defensible” theology!). Personally, I think God wants us to understand Him as best we can, but is much more interested in helping us to appreciate Him—even, and maybe especially, if our journey with Him includes a lot of kicking and screaming. I think that appreciating God is the best way to love Him—because He first loved us! I’m truly sorry, Vinod, if this sounds arrogant or condescending…but I just thought that maybe you should be given a kind–and forthright–”answer” to your apparent angst.
Have a great day,
Richard
cheryl u on 02 Aug 2009 at 10:18 am #
Vinod,
I’m not sure what you mean by “deliberately trusting and believing the Word of God.” Actually, we become worthy only through Jesus and the righteousness He gives us when we trust in Him as our Saviour and Lord.
Vinod Isaac on 02 Aug 2009 at 10:21 am #
Also look at the parable in Mat 22:3-4 King (means God) invited people and forgot to give faith? Or was He not capable of giving faith in his sovereignity? If God’s sovereignity works the way you think then God is at fault. But fact is it doesn’t work the way you think.
Mat 22:3 “and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.
Mat 22:4 “Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”‘
Richard on 02 Aug 2009 at 10:47 am #
Vinod,
Perhaps I’m just dense beyond belief, but please tell me what–anything…ONE thing…that God NEEDs. If there is something–anything!– that the eternal God/Creator could possibly need, then perhaps you will have an opportunity to supply that need–and then be worthy of His love. Gook luck with that; I think I’ll just stick to accepting His love and grace–because He seems to love to love me (I stopped asking him why He loves me–oh wretched man that I am–many years ago!)
Richard
Marvin the Martian on 02 Aug 2009 at 11:06 am #
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered
Vinod,
I am able to say this as I used to be very much like you. I was once a person who delighted in debating theology. I loved to try and show people the error of their ways. I was deriving my opinions straight from scripture too. I could proof-text like no other, so how could I be wrong? I was personally very impressed with my own knowledge of scripture and I wanted others to be impressed by it as well. Unfortunately for me (and you), God is not impressed if we are right in our theology if we are doing so with a wrong heart attitude. I wanted to impress people. I can’t speak as to what your motive is, only you and God know that. But I can say with a great deal of certainty what you are NOT motivated by, and that is Christian love.
You have not been kind, nor gentle in the defense of your beliefs. Nearly every post you have done is saturated with a tone of arrogance and pride. You have been extraordinarily rude to other BELIEVERS no less, but praise God you have a Bible verse to allegedly back you up, so it is OK to for you to mock, insult, and accuse your brothers and sisters in Christ. And please do spare us the “I can’t help it if Truth offends” defense. You have no monopoly on Truth claims. Sadly, a great number of your posts have been but “a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal” because there is no love in what you do.
I can only hope that you are able to humble yourself before God humbles you. Personally, I did not humble myself and God allowed me to fall big time. It nearly trainwrecked my faith so great was my fall from His grace. But thankfully God is far more merciful than you or I. Though I don’t FEEL nearly as close to God as I would like to feel nor have felt in the past, I probably am closer to Him NOW than I have ever been.
C Michael Patton on 02 Aug 2009 at 11:49 am #
Vinod’s comments after my warning have been deleted and he has been banned for continuing to post after I told him not to.
In the three years I have been blogging, there are only three who have been banned. Vinod is the third.
Alexander M. Jordan on 02 Aug 2009 at 12:35 pm #
Vinod,
“People crucified the Lord Jesus to shut His mouth but they still could not shut His mouth. Getting banned from a blog is still better than being crucified.”
Why are you playing the martyr? No one is crucifying you, they merely disagreed with some of your points.
As you know they were many people during this discussion that disagreed with some of your arguments. Many provided reasons as well as Scriptures in rebuttal.
Obviously the blog moderator, Michael Patton, is not trying to suppress this conversation, which has gone on for over 300 comments. Neither is he trying to suppress the “truth” (which apparently, only you are aware of).
When you said that your comment #307 would be your last I had doubts about that statement
You say the discussion needn’t have been so long– if only people had not ignored all the verses you showed them that so explicitly proved your point then the discussion would have ended sooner, we all would have been content and could sit down at the feet of Vinod, to be taught properly. What of the verses that others quoted, that explicitly contradicted your arguments? How come you had no reply to my last comment. Were you ignoring it?…
It seems now you have been banned. Personally I think that your comments helped to generate a good discussion. It’s too bad you felt the need to express your thoughts in the way you did. It wasn’t your opinions that people objected to but the manner in which they were stated.
I hope your quest and passion for truth continues. Yet as others have said, none of us have a corner on truth. If you have been wrong on certain points before, that means you could perhaps have been mistaken this time. We all can be wrong sometimes.
Blessings,
Alex
Michael on 02 Aug 2009 at 9:20 pm #
I always love (read despise) people who claim to understand the Bible according to its “plain meaning” or “as it was written”. Whenever I see someone claim this I have to often have to close the website quickly lest I fall into sin by wishing very cruel things upon them. They are without fail the most arrogant people I know for they instantly equate any disagreement with them as going against God as if they speak for Him (or at least are His anointed interpreters of the Word). They promote their intellect above that of any others. It is even more frustrating when their “plain reading” is plainly contradicted by the “plain reading” of those in the Early Church who were in a much better position to understand the text then I or they are. They give all of us people who are genuinely trying and grasping to understand the things of God a bad name and are detrimental to the cause of the Gospel. Because I am often questioned about such people by the non-Christians I deal with and try to share the Gospel with I have come to the conclusion that it is best to completely disavow them as being brothers. As far as I’m concerned they are not a part of the Christian faith and I will have nothing to do with them or in any way acknowledge them. If this were my blog (probably it’s a good thing it’s not) such a claim would get someone an insta-ban.
Alright I apologize about my rant. I have been so disturbed by the posts of he who shall not be named that I couldn’t help but say something. Please forgive me. As to CMP’s original post I myself have often struggled with doubt. I don’t consider this a good thing, on the contrary it is a scary and disturbing thing which I wished did not happen, yet as CMP pointed out it is a part of struggling against our fallen nature and the forces of darkness which oppose God and our faith. Despite this doubting often causes me to go back and reexamine the evidence and do more study. In the end the bouts I have with doubt have often been used by God to strengthen and grow my faith. I thank you for the post CMP and look forward to the day where God will perfect all our faith and what we now see dimly we will then see face to face
Joshua Allen on 02 Aug 2009 at 11:06 pm #
Good move on the banning. Just yesterday I found the “how to conduct yourself” post that CMP wrote for theologica last year: http://theologica.ning.com/forum/topics/how-to-conduct-yourselves-on. A really great set of guidelines. It is always sobering how quickly people on message boards can spiral into a caricature of how not to adhere to such common courtesy. I know I need to watch myself sometimes.
Regarding the post, I thought more about Dr_Mike’s point in #21 about “two minds”. The same topic (of having two minds) came up in my pastor’s sermon, and in a book I was reading. I don’t think I could speak authoritatively about doubt vs. faith vs. fear vs. unbelief, etc. But this helped frame the question with a bit more clarity for me.
Joe on 09 Aug 2009 at 3:06 pm #
Was it the disciples who said, “We believe! Help us in our unbelief!” Apparently, parsing this logically, there can be an measure of unbelief, doubt, in belief.
Or those who “believe,” are allowed a bit of doubt, and yet can still be called believers.
David from GA on 17 Aug 2009 at 7:57 am #
Hello Michael,
Your post began like this:
I have been in a conversation recently about doubt. Most specifically, the question that has risen is, “Can a true Christian doubt God at the most fundamental level.”
As a recently deconverted christian, I thought this was a great question to ask. I had been in the faith for 36 years, a church board member and lay youth pastor. I had always taken the entire bible as the infallible word of god. There was never a doubt in my mind whatsoever. I, in fact, used to defend the scriptures wholeheartedly to mormons, jehovah’s witnesses and non-believers.
However, about a year ago, I began to have doubts. At first, I simply began investigating the historicity of the stories in the Old Testament. Eventually, I also began examining the New Testament as well. Over a period of about six months, I slowly began losing my once rock-solid faith in the bible. As a result, I began losing my faith in the existence of the biblical god as well. Today, I am no longer a believer. I sometimes wish I could be back in the faith, but I can’t.
For tthe sake of brevity, I’m going to stop here. But suffice it to say, the answer is a resounding yes. One can be a true christian and have doubts about god at the must fundamental level. I never thought I would be anything else but a christian. The thought never even entered my mind. But here I am after having left the faith because of the doubts that I had and the questions that couldn’t be answered.
Wm Tanksley on 17 Aug 2009 at 1:14 pm #
Thanks for the followup — and for bringing us right back to the main topic — but I think you slightly misread his question. A brief restatement of what he was asking would be “Can a true Christian doubt God at the most fundamental level and remain a true Christian.” Your story is on topic, but testifies how you became not a true Christian — it doesn’t tell us whether a true Christian remains true even while doubting.
-Wm
Alexander M Jordan on 17 Aug 2009 at 1:22 pm #
Hi Dave:
I am sorry to hear your testimony about being “deconverted”. It sounds like this was a very painful experience for you.
But it seems to me that there a difference between believing certain propositions about Christianity and being a Christian. Jesus talks about becoming converted to God as a spiritual event– one is “born again” (John 3:5-7). Likewise, Paul defines the essence of being Christian as being one in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells, since he says, “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him (Romans 8:9)” and “… do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? (1 Cor 6:19).
So believing that the Bible is inerrant, that God does exist, that Jesus is who He says He is, etc. are important, but there are some (perhaps many) who believe such propositions and yet are not Christians.
Don’t give up the fight of faith. As human beings we all struggle with doubts, as Michael was talking about. But the Christian faith is reasonable– it is not blind faith. Do you think that there is a solution to man’s deepest problem– sin– apart from Christ?
The disciples’ faith was very imperfect, yet Peter declared, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
They knew this because no one ever spoke or acted like Jesus. And God opened their eyes to see it. I hope you will find Jesus again.
Wm Tanksley on 17 Aug 2009 at 7:33 pm #
This is without a doubt true, and bears directly on the question of whether we can doubt without being ‘deconverted’ (whatever that means). This person used to believe, and thought that he was a real Christian; now he does not believe, and thinks that he is not a Christian at all. We both say (following 1 John 2:19) that if he had truly been a Christian he would not have left us — but what good does that message do for someone who is experiencing doubts, but hasn’t “left” the faith? And, looking back, what good does that do to “David from GA”, who used to be certain of his faith and now is reasonably certain in his unbelief (David, I hope I’m not reading anything unjustified into your post) — would he not see his experience as testimony against the claims John makes, and therefore confirm his unbelief?
I have some ideas, but I need to get on the road now… Does anyone else have some?
-Wm
gary on 19 Aug 2009 at 3:06 am #
WM Tanksley wrote “would he not see his experience as testimony against the claims John makes, and therefore confirm his unbelief?”
To him [ David ] this may or may not be how he sees it, but it would in the believers perspective irrelevant. I am not saying to a believer that David’s position is irrelevant but rather how he sees his position is not relevant to the Christian perspective since the Christian takes the Bible as God’s word on the matter and it stands authoritatively over against any claimed experience. All because the Worldview of the bible alone provides and accounts for meaning and truth and right and wrong and so on.
please keep that in mind as you debate such a possibly emotionally charged issue.
Gary
Wm Tanksley on 19 Aug 2009 at 8:37 am #
I agree with your closing point, largely, but without bringing the testimony of the Bible to bear on David’s experience it’s going to be left mute. Furthermore, by investigating David’s experience we have a chance to look at how the Bible’s teaching applies to a real-world situation, in a way pertinent to the original post CMP made (regarding what happens when Christians doubt).
If we believe the Bible is true, it seems to me that we have an obligation to apply it to reality, rather than keeping it isolated from reality.
On the other hand, I agree that “how David sees his position” is less important — although not (as you said) irrelevant. David may possibly be wrong about his position; but David’s opinion about his position is important because if he’s wrong, that error is part of David’s position, and if his true position is relevant to our discussion, his error is relevant.
I’d like to explore how (and whether) doubt shades into unbelief, in support of CMP’s assertion that a true Christian can doubt without becoming non-Christian; that doubts about points of doctrine need not automatically destroy assurance of salvation.
I should add that I believe David’s testimony misses the point; as you’ll recall, David actually offered his testimony in order to show that a true Christian _can_ doubt, but the fact that he’s not a true Christian anymore actually argues _against_ that premise.
-Wm