A Possible Error in the Bible?
Those who believe in biblical inerrancy (i.e., the Bible does not contain any errors, historic, scientific, or otherwise) normally start with a theological conviction which is arrived at deductively. They believe, like I do, that God is perfect and without error. They also believe, like me, that the Bible is God’s word. Conclusion? The Bible is perfect and without error. Once this theological presupposition has been adopted, the Scriptures can be understood and interpreted in light of this belief.
The problem often arises that one creates a new hermeneutic (i.e., method of interpretation) that can manipulate the text to make it conform to this doctrine of inerrancy. Any inductive claim to error is rejected outright and interpreted in light of some sort of “inerrant hermeneutic.”
Others, however, do not approach the Scripture with such a theological presupposition. They take an inductive approach: if they believe in inerrancy, they do so because they don’t find any errors in the Scripture. This type of inerrancy is rare. Why? Because there do appear to be some issues that seem, in the minds of many, to be beyond resolution. Many of these do not believe in inerrancy simply because they have found what they believe to be errors.
As a necessary aside, I find myself compelled to say that many of those who do not believe in inerrancy do believe in the inspiration of Scripture. In fact, I know dozens of very fine and godly evangelical scholars who are completely committed to the proclamation of the Gospel and the defense of the Christian faith who are not advocates of inerrancy. In other words, a denial of inerrancy does not in any way necessitate a denial of the faith.
I believe in inerrancy. I do not believe that when the Scriptures are rightly understood there are any errors, historic or scientific. Inductively, however, I do often find myself scratching my head concerning certain passages. My theological conviction does play a part in my hermeneutic, but it is not determinative. It cannot be. I am either searching for truth or seeking to confirm my doctrine and conform a text to my presuppositions. I pray each day that it is the former.
With this in mind, I was asked the other day by a student as to what is the most difficult problem that you have found in the Bible that challenges your view of inerrancy. Without a doubt, it is the problem of Abiathar in Mark 2.26.
Here is the skinny:
When Christ was confronted by the Pharisees for allowing his disciples to eat on the Sabbath, he responded to them with this:
22 And He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry;
26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?”
27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
The problem is that Abiathar was not the high priest at the time of this incident according to the Old Testament. According to the account in 1 Sam 21.1-7 Ahimelech was the high priest. Abiathar was his son, who would later become high priest.
To further complicate the problem, Matthew and Luke do not include the phrase epi Abiathar archiereos, “at the time Abiathar was high priest.” For those who hold to Markan priority (i.e., they believe that Mark was the first Gospel written and used as a source by the others—which is the majority view among Evangelicals), they might respond by saying that the reason for Luke’s and Matthew’s omission was that they were correcting the error of Mark.
Dan Wallace mentions five possible reasons for the problem (source):
1. Text-critical: the text is wrong and needs to be emended
2. Hermeneutical: our interpretation is wrong and needs to altered
3. Dominical: Jesus is wrong and this needs to be adjusted to
4. Source-critical: Mark’s source (Peter?) is wrong
5. Mark is wrong
I would add one possible option to this list:
6. The Old Testament is wrong, Christ corrects it
Without going into the arguments for each or my position (and I do have my opinion), what are your thoughts here? Do you think the Bible has erred? If not, how do you explain this without sacrificing your hermeneutical integrity to an inerrant presupposition?
Why bring this up on an Evangelical theology blog? Because these are the type of issues that we need to discuss.
If you enjoyed this post, make sure you subscribe to my RSS feed!- Case Studies in Inerrancy: A New P&P Series
- Case Studies in Inerrancy: 1 Sam. 26:5-16
- Theology Unplugged: Defining Inerrancy #6
- The Danger of Inerrancy
- The Danger of Inerrancy
Print This Post

Brennon on 06 Jul 2009 at 7:14 pm #
Hank Hanegraaff answers this in one of his Bible answer books. I believe his answer was something like this: Note the text does not say that Abiathar WAS the high priest. It simply says, “in the time of Abiathar the high priest.” Meaning Christ was using the soon to be priest to give a time reference. Christ was not saying Abiathar WAS priest at that time, only that he was alive at that time.
Apparently, Abiathar was a better known name at the time, so Christ used it instead of Ahimelech.
http://www.equip.org/articles/did-jesus-make-a-crucial-historical-blunder-in-the-gospel-of-mark-
Sam on 06 Jul 2009 at 7:49 pm #
Most decent commentaries provide more than adequate explanations. This from A. Barnes on Mark’s gospel says it as well as any:
The son of the high priest was regarded as his successor, and was often associated with him in the duties of his office. It was not improper, therefore, to designate him as high priest even during the life of his father, especially as that was the name by which he was afterward known. “Abiathar,” moreover, in the calamitous times when David came to the throne, left the interest of Saul and fled to David, bringing with him the ephod, one of the special garments of the high priest. For a long time, during David’s reign, he was high priest, and it became
natural, therefore, to associate “his” name with that of David; to speak of David as king, and Abiathar the high priest of his time. This will account for the fact that he was spoken of rather than his father. At the same time this was strictly true, that this was done in the days of “Abiathar,” who was afterward high priest, and was familiarly spoken of as such; as we say that “General” Washington was present at the defeat of Braddock and saved his army, though the title of “General” did not belong to him until many years afterward.
Mike on 06 Jul 2009 at 8:17 pm #
Sam,
So you’re saying that Mark erred in saying Abiathar was the high priest because of his association with David?
EricW on 06 Jul 2009 at 8:39 pm #
What I want to know is: what did Judas do with the money and who bought the field?
Mike B. on 06 Jul 2009 at 9:24 pm #
It could be a text issue, but if it is, one wonders why there are no manuscripts with the correct name, or some phrase that would clarify the issue (such as “father of” Abiathar). This is also interesting because this is precisely the kind of thing that you would think that an overzealous scribe would “correct,” at some point, thinking it to be a mistake. The controversial phrase is omitted in a small minority of manuscripts, but where the name of a high priest occurs, it is always Abiathar. Thus the invocation of any transmission error is pure speculation.
The ambiguous phrase, “epi Abiathar,” allows a wide range of interpretation. If he meant “in the days of Abiathar, why did Mark use this phrase instead of the usual… “en tais hemerais…”? One suggestion that I found in Robert Stein’s commentary on Mark is that this means, “In the section of Scripture that speaks about Abiathar.” This initially seems compelling since Jewish practice was often to label books or sections of books by the first words contained in them or the main character about which they were concerned (more so in the Pentateuch than anywhere else though, e.g. “Noach, Yithro, Korach, etc.). The problem is that Abiathar doesn’t turn up in the text until 22:20, so it is very unlikely that this section of scripture would have carried his name.
In the end, isn’t the simplest explanation that Mark made a mistake? He had a lapse of memory, and accidentally wrote Abiathar when he meant to write Ahimelech. One does not know how rigorous Mark’s editing process was, but seeing as this detail was hardly central to his argument, one can see how it could have been overlooked (one might envision Mark being corrected by one of his fellow apostles after his work had been “published” and remarking, embarrassed, “Oops. Well, you know what I meant.”)
When it comes to the gospels, aren’t most evangelicals pretty forgiving anyway? We have largely given up on harmonization. The gospels do not agree with one another in all of their details, and that’s okay. They are portraits of Jesus, not high resolution photographs. Even fairly conservative inerrantists (at least in the circles I frequent) admit this regularly and are okay with it. There are many cases where you have parallel gospel pericopes that contradict in some detail or another in such a way that they cannot both be true. In these cases, I honestly find it best to speak more of reliability than of inerrancy. Do you trust that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are all being good historians, making good use of sources oral and written to give us, his readers, a well-researched, factual account? If we were to travel back in time and watch the events described first hand, would they play out exactly like the Jesus film? Probably not. But would we recognize most of what was happening such that it confirmed that the Gospel writers were telling the truth and not just making stuff up? I believe so.
C Michael Patton on 06 Jul 2009 at 9:30 pm #
Mike,
“This is also interesting because this is precisely the kind of thing that you would think that an overzealous scribe would “correct,” at some point, thinking it to be a mistake.”
Good comment. This really does help us in the area of integrity of text criticism. It should give people comfort to know that we do not hide these difficulties so that our faith can be manipulated in the eyes of others. This is true whatever position you take.
Neal on 06 Jul 2009 at 9:36 pm #
I think one option is to leave it unresolved. That is, to say that we have an inconsistency in the data for which we believe (by way of theological assumption) that there is a resolution, but we don’t know what that resolution is.
I don’t think that’s a cop out. There are lots of things that seem to have no resolution and until someone uncovers new evidence that resolves it. I think it is fully responsible and humble to distinguish between “I don’t know how to resolve this inconsistency” and “this inconsistency cannot be resolved.” Coupling the former with experience and well justified theological pre-commitments leads to the fully defensible belief that there is a resolution.
Sam on 06 Jul 2009 at 9:49 pm #
Mike, no i don’t think Mark erred. he simply used expressions that everbody understood. and by the way, A. Barnes said it not me. there is no error in what Mark says.
Kirby L. Wallace on 06 Jul 2009 at 9:56 pm #
Well, that is interesting. Couple of things.
Jesus didn’t say that Abiathar actually was High Priest at the time that David came to Ahimelech. He says only that the event took place in the time of Abiathar. And that would make sense since Abiathar was standing right there at the time.
It would be kind of similar if someone was remeniscing about David’s encounter with Goliath and said, “So there was our glorious King David, standing in front of Goliath with his knees knocking, yet trusting God…”
He wasn’t King at the time, but he is refering to King David.
Abiathar WAS a High Priest, so refering to him as “Abiathar the High Priest” is legitimate. Abiathar was present at the time, so refering to “the time of Abiathar” is legitimate.
It’s the time-dodge that makes it look contradictory. We still refer to Jimmy Carter (grundgingly) as “President Carter” even though he is not THE President right now.
… and stuff like that… (Which is what I always say when I don’t know how to end a conversation gracefully and just want to bring it to a close…
kirby (h’at) wallaceinfo [daht) com
Charbo on 06 Jul 2009 at 10:35 pm #
Very interesting questions/comments. I have a question related to 2 Timothy 3:16-17. I have been taught that the “scriptures” (grafee in Greek if my elementary skills are accurate) are the writings of the authors. Stated differently, what Mark wrote was inspired rather than Mark was an inspired author (who we acknowledge was carried along by the Holy Spirit).
If so – how could our scriptures be in error – unless there was a scribal or translation error introduced at some point in history.
Is what I’ve been taught correct? If so, what bearing would it have on this topic?
Thank you for the insightful posts – I pray for your ministry.
Dave Z on 06 Jul 2009 at 11:18 pm #
I’m working on an ordination paper, and inerrancy is one of the points I must support and defend in the paper. Yet I struggle with inerrancy, or to be more accurate, verbal plenary inspiration. (I don’t focus on inerrancy. My current thoughts are that even if there are “errors”, they are inconsequential to the intent and trustworthiness of scripture) I explained this to my denominational mentor and he feels it comes down to this: Is there anything in the Bible that God is unhappy with? (Maybe not his exact words) My answer is no. The passage CMP quotes is still accurate, because Jesus is speaking about the Sabbath. His point is valid regardless of possible problems with the time reference.
I don’t even have a problem if it were determined Jesus was wrong. An honest mistake is not sin.
I agree with Emil Brunner and his illustration of the RCA dog – in spite of any pops or crackles in the recording, we still hear and recognise our Master’s voice.
Stuart on 06 Jul 2009 at 11:36 pm #
Some of the earlier comments provide solutions I find satisfactory, but I can appreciate those who would disagree.
Personally, I find many “contradictions” to be instances of the reader assuming the words say more than they do.
Regarding those who feel wary to endorse everything inerrancy can be taken to mean, I feel you. I don’t have problems with how the Bible puts it, but sometimes I am reluctant to heartily agree to the way some people conclude the Bible puts it.
Aaron Rathburn on 07 Jul 2009 at 12:38 am #
God did not give us a book written on tablets of gold, such as believed by Mormons or Muslims. God has used human authors to write his text.
Michael wrote, “…God is perfect and without error…the Bible is God’s word. Conclusion? The Bible is perfect and without error.”
While this sounds like a tidy syllogism, it actually is logically invalid. Just because God is perfect, this does not necessitate that his tools of communication exhibit the same characteristics of perfection. For example, look at the following:
P1 God is perfect and without error.
P2 Human beings are made in the image of God.
C Therefore, human beings are perfect and without error.
As tidy as this sounds, it is invalid. Even postlapsarian (after the Fall), humans are still in the image of God (Gen 9:6, et al), but yet we are of course terribly imperfect.
When God set foot on the earth, what did he do? He became flesh. God condescends himself to humanity, and takes on human norms, in order to accommodate and communicate with us.
In the same way, many theologians and evangelical scholars (as Michael hinted at above) are suggesting that we should have this “incarnational” model for the scriptures. They are fully divine, but they are also fully human. And when we overemphasize the “divine” nature of the text, we perhaps are committing the same mistake that the Gnostics did about Jesus, insisting that he never truly had flesh–that he was never human.
Many conservative Christians deny the “flesh” and humanity of the scriptures, similar to the Gnostics with Jesus. We don’t like to find passages where maybe an author was “too human.”
For an introduction to God accommodating himself to us in order to communicate, see this post, “The Gospel According to Ancient Near Eastern Culture.”
“God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong” (1 Cor 1). Even to atheists, it only makes sense that of course if a god were to write a book, it would certainly be inerrant. But our God uses what is foolish to shame the wise. Maybe all of the “errors” found in the Bible, such as Abiathar, are actually what they appear to be–very simple, very very miniscule “errors” that do not interfere whatsoever with God’s bigger-picture of redemption. And maybe that’s okay.
bethyada on 07 Jul 2009 at 3:31 am #
I am an inerrantist. I am aware of this difficulty though have not thought about it a lot. If I were to I would construct a genealogy of the high priests around that period. There seems to be more than one Ahimelech and family names are not a new phenomenon.
But my first response is that one does not need to read identity into chronology. So I would suggest a resolution along the lines of several commenters above: Abiathar became high priest and therefore it is a legitimate identification.
If you were discussing Mary, and someone said which Mary (I mean, there are so many of them), and you responded the Virgin Mary; would that be incorrect even though Protestants don’t think she is still a virgin?
bethyada on 07 Jul 2009 at 3:38 am #
I think there are much harder difficulties in the Bible. Which Zechariah was Jesus referring to? And I can’t resolve the 3 Peter denials yet.
I would add this comment though. I used to notice a lot of problems with “contradictory” passages, and have read material resolving them. But several passages have seemed difficult over the years. Many of them have been resolved, but often in ways that have taught me significantly. My ideas have been modified and I have seen that Scripture at times is more specific than first appearance, or that a concept I thought was singular was actually several concepts that I had conflated (possibly by virtue of the English language), or that the Hebrew or Greek was not fully parallel with the English.
So resolving problems has expanded my understanding of Scripture significantly. Further, the frequency for which legitimate resolutions were forthcoming means that I am no longer concerned if I come across a difficulty, it will likely be resolved in time.
Phil McCheddar on 07 Jul 2009 at 6:51 am #
There isn’t always a precise moment in time that someone hands over his office to his successor.
For example, Queen Elizabeth II technically became queen the moment her father George VI died in 1952, but she was not officially crowned as queen until 1953.
According to Josephus, Caiphas was appointed high priest about A.D. 18 and removed from that office in A.D. 36. During this period Annas, father-in-law of Caiphas, who had been high-priest from A.D. 6 to 15, continued to exercise a controlling influence over Jewish affairs. This explains the puzzling expression in Luke 3:2 (“under the high-priest Annas and Caiphas”; cf. Acts 4:6). Caiphas was certainly the only official high priest at the time, but Annas still had his former title and much of his former authority. The role assigned him in the trial of Christ (John 18) points to the same continued influence.
Jotham was the acting king of Judah during the time his father Uzziah had leprosy, even though he did not officially become king until his father died. So there wasn’t a clear-cut changeover in the kingship but rather a period of ambivalent overlap when both men could have been described as king of Judah, though in different senses. See 2 Chronicles 26:21.
Alternatively perhaps the Lord Jesus was referring to the general period of history in which Abiathar’s high-priesthood formed a prominent part but which also included a generation or two before and after. From the perspective of Jesus and his hearers hundreds of years later, the high-priesthood’s of Ahimelech and Abiathar constituted a single era of history, and Jesus used Abiathar’s high-priesthood as a synecdoche for the whole period. In the same way a historian might speak about “the times of King Henry VIII” to refer to the period of English history covering several decades before & after his actual reign.
EricW on 07 Jul 2009 at 7:11 am #
Is the “kathôs gegraptai” (“just as it is/has-been written”) of Romans 9:33 an “error”? I.e., the apostle Paul borrows from two Scriptures (Isaiah 28:16 and 8:14) to create his own amalgamation which doesn’t either in whole or in part precisely match the wording of either of them – and declares what he has written to be “what is written” when in fact what he writes is not “just as it is/has-been written.”
Or do we say that kathôs gegraptai is an idiomatic phrase that doesn’t necessarily mean what it says; rather, it means the speaker/writer/Jewish sage is going to quote some Scripture or combination of Scripture or adaptation of Scripture or modification of Scripture which may not be exactly “what is written”?
Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell on 07 Jul 2009 at 7:14 am #
I think it is useful to see how similar the views of those who believe inerrancy are to those who don’t.
CMP started off by saying: “Those who believe in biblical inerrancy… normally start with a theological conviction which is arrived at deductively. They believe, like I do, that God is perfect and without error. They also believe, like me, that the Bible is God’s word. Conclusion? The Bible is perfect and without error.”
Here is the other evangelical view: Those who don’t believe in biblical inerrancy normally normally start with a theological conviction which is arrived at deductively. They believe, like I do, that God is perfect and without error. They also believe, like me, that the Bible is God’s word. However, they believe that the perfect God used imperfect men as the tool for the transmission of his word, and while God inspired, he did not, except for a few recorded places, dictate. Conclusion? The Bible is not perfect and not without error.
Looking at these two views then, the question becomes, which view best fits the scripture as we know it without having to do mental gymnastics. Reading the above comments make me think that there are a lot of mental gymnastics required to arrive at option A for this passage as well as others. As a result I tend to be more comfortable with option B.
Option B simply says then: “God inspired Mark to write, God did not dictate. Mark is human, and likely made a human mistake. The overall intent or message is still the same, so let’s move on.”
Note: Not saying that we should move on from this topic, only that the noninerrantist doesn’t see errors as an issue.
rick on 07 Jul 2009 at 7:27 am #
Michael Bell-
“which view best fits the scripture as we know it without having to do mental gymnastics”
I understand what you are saying, but two thoughts come to mind.
1st- do we not have to sometimes go through mental gymnastics regularly in our own normal lives to explain certain truthful situations? Do we then hold Scripture to some different standard?
2nd- If you hold to errors in Scripture, do you not then have to go through mental gymnastics to explain how you still hold it as authoritative?
I don’t have a problem with the authority and truthfulness of Scripture whether it contains error or not. As CMP stated, it is a matter of correctly understanding the Scriptures, including the intent of writers, the message God is communicating, and how the early church understood that authority.
Sam on 07 Jul 2009 at 7:29 am #
Kirby Wallace & Phil McCheddar get it!
Aaron Rathburn on 07 Jul 2009 at 8:07 am #
rick: “If you hold to errors in Scripture, do you not then have to go through mental gymnastics to explain how you still hold it as authoritative?”
This is an a priori mistaken assumption on our part. We *assume* that of course, if a deity were to have a book, it should be perfect and inerrant. And if it is not perfect, we then say that a person is performing “mental gymnastics” to “prove” that it is still a divine book.
But actually, this is the opposite of the truth. If we think about it, it only makes sense that God would accommodate himself to us. John Calvin put it well when he said that God condescends to us and speaks “baby babble,” in order that we may understand him even a fraction. (See my comment #13 above, with a link therein).
Truth Unites... and Divides on 07 Jul 2009 at 8:19 am #
“Kirby Wallace & Phil McCheddar get it!”
I’d say Bethyada gets it too.
Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell on 07 Jul 2009 at 8:50 am #
Hi Rick,
Thanks for the response.
Not sure I completely understand your first point, you might have to give an example for me.
As for the second point, here is the American Heritage Dictionaries definition of Authoritative:
1. Having or arising from authority; official: an authoritative decree; authoritative sources.
2. Of acknowledged accuracy or excellence; highly reliable: an authoritative account of the revolution.
3. Wielding authority; commanding: the captain’s authoritative manner.
With this definition I don’t have a problem with the Bible being authoritative.
I am reminded of a joke I heard from an engineer. “Does an engineer believe that a glass is half-full or half-empty?” Answer: Neither, an engineer believes a glass is .49876321 full.
I am like the non-engineer, for most of us it is sufficient to say that the glass is half-full or half-empty. I don’t think that a higher level of precision was intended in scripture, so I don’t expect it. So while I believe that the Bible is accurate and reliable, I am not expecting scientific precision. Note how it talks about a captain being authoritative. I also see my Father as being authoritative. I do not believe either are perfect, yet they can still be authoritative.
Matt Dabbs on 07 Jul 2009 at 9:09 am #
Maybe someone has already said this. If you were referring to the year 1770 you might say, “In the days of President George Washington…” The fact is, he wasn’t president for another 19 years but he was alive in 1770 and we know him as a President. You are not talking about the exact years of his presidency (1789-1797). You are using him as a reference point that he was alive at the time. That would be a fine point of reference to include “President” even though he wasn’t president in 1770.
That could be what is going on in this text. Jesus is referring to a time when Abiathar was alive and because he is known to them as a high priest from the past it makes sense to call him “Abiathar the high priest” even though he wouldn’t be that for some time. Because Abiathar was probably alive at the time it is perfectly legit to refer to him as high priest even though he wasn’t yet. Jesus doesn’t say, “In the time Abiathar served as high priest.” He says “in the time of Abiathar the high priest”. Hope that makes sense.
Matt Dabbs on 07 Jul 2009 at 9:11 am #
Kirby #9 beat me to it…sorry about that.
Curt Parton on 07 Jul 2009 at 9:48 am #
If the Bible contains errors regarding details that some might not consider essential, how can we be sure it doesn’t contain error in its essential teachings? Do we just assume that? If I start to see too many errors in a medical report—even those that aren’t specifically medical—it will probably call into question the veracity of the report’s major findings.
Is the Bible the Word of God to its original recipients (and now to us), or does it simply contain the Word of God? If it only contains the Word of God, who determines what is and is not error-free communication from God and on what basis? If it actually is the Word of God, how can we have a fallible, error-containing Word of God? Is this not profoundly incongruous?
And since, as others have mentioned, other seeming contradictions or errors in Scripture have been clarified through additional historical data, justifying the reading of the text, why should we assume error rather than simply the need for more information? Since similarly troublesome readings have proven to be accurate in the past, shouldn’t we give the Bible the benefit of the doubt (without forcing the passage into a procrustean solution)?
rick on 07 Jul 2009 at 9:55 am #
Michael Bell-
Sorry I was not clear with my 1st point. I was just trying to say we often have to use “mental gymnastics” to further explain to others confusing events we regularly experience (accidents, conversations, etc…). Those listening may be initially confused until we further explain the situation. Then looking back, the way we had first explained the situation makes sense to those listening.
Therefore, using mental gymnastics as something that limits an interpretation of Scripture puts a different standard on Scripture than it does in everyday life.
Likewise, claiming Scripture is authoritative (“highly reliable”), yet contains errors, also causes one to have explain in way that could be seen as mental gymnastics to those listening. Again, the mental gymnastics bar may not be a very useful standard.
That being said, I don’t think you and I are too far off in our position. I like how N.T. Wright speaks of the authority of Scripture as shorthand for God’s authority.
Joshua Allen on 07 Jul 2009 at 10:16 am #
I agree with Dave Z on this one:
“My current thoughts are that even if there are “errors”, they are inconsequential to the intent and trustworthiness of scripture”
Isn’t this the reason that we have 4 records of the gospel? To teach us that there can be multiple perspectives, and that there are some details that matter more than others?
EricW on 07 Jul 2009 at 10:34 am #
If the “inerrancy” of the Bible doesn’t mean “inerrant” – i.e., without error – without requiring qualification, explanation, caveats, etc., then I don’t think the word “inerrant” should be applied to the Scriptures. When you have to redefine and nuance and explain a term like “Biblical inerrancy” so that “square peg” discordant instances can still fit into what is now no longer the simple round hole that “inerrant” normally denotes, then I think you have a problem justifying the use of the word “inerrant” in the first place.
As someone has said, the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy dies the death of a thousand qualifications. Perhaps that’s why the Evangelical Theological Society, whose Doctrinal Basis/Statement is:
has not been successful (though it’s not for lack of trying) in getting all its members to agree to adopt the Chicago Statement as the definition/meaning of “inerrancy.” At most they have agreed to “refer” members to it:
Curt Parton on 07 Jul 2009 at 10:50 am #
“My current thoughts are that even if there are “errors”, they are inconsequential to the intent and trustworthiness of scripture”
I’m not sure how errors can be inconsequential to the intent and trustworthiness of Scripture. If a document contains too many errors, I question its trustworthiness. It doesn’t mean it has nothing of value, but the more errors found within it, the more the rest needs to be verified. If a certain writing is claimed to be somehow of divine origin, the standard of accuracy is going to be a fairly rigid one (IMO).
Since the level of authority we are according Scripture is a much greater one than other authorities, shouldn’t the validity of that authority be certain? In what sense, and to what extent, are the Scriptures authoritative?
Mike B. on 07 Jul 2009 at 11:13 am #
Another quick comment:
I don’t think that anyone really arrives at inerrancy “inductively.” Those who search the scripture and find it error-free to their satisfaction are still operating with the presupposition that if they find something that looks like an error, an explanation that exonerates that scripture from error is preferable to an explanation that does not. Thus their ability to call the Scripture inerrant still rests on their ability to explain away apparent contradictions and errors.
To tell the truth, this is no simple matter, even if you do not believe in inerrancy. There are many liberal scholars who are historical minimalists and, for lack of a better term, “error maximalists.” They take the exact opposite approach to the above. To them, if it looks like an error or contradiction on first glance, then it probably is. These kinds of people could learn a lot from conservative scholars who try very hard to find explanations for the problems they find in the Bible.
At the same time, though, many times the explanations that evangelicals come up with to uphold inerrancy stretch credulity to its limits, and often ignore simple, workable and elegant explanations in service of a doctrine that they themselves imposed upon the texts. The gospels all implicitly or explicitly (as in the case of Luke) claim to be truthful, but none of them claim to be free from error. Yet we have presupposed what the authors themselves never supposed for no other reason than for our own theological convenience (and I would argue that as issues like this passage we are discussing evidence, it actually makes it anything but convenient).
In the end, you cannot prove that any historical document is free from error. You can only demonstrate its plausibility and decide whether you have sufficient reason to believe what it is telling you.
EricW on 07 Jul 2009 at 11:21 am #
Well, since most Evangelical Protestants use the Hebrew OT text, whereas most NT authors seemed to use the Greek translation (LXX) for their OT Scriptures, which possibly included the Apocryphal books (or some of them) and which differs in text and meaning in some very important verses (and in the case of, e.g., Jeremiah in length/content) from the Hebrew OT text, the very definition of “Bible” that most Protestant Evangelicals use when saying that the Bible is “inerrant” or “authoritative” is possibly at variance with what the early Christians and the NT authors used. So when we talk about the “inerrancy” and “authority” of the Bible/Scriptures, we first have to declare and justify what we mean by “the Bible,” and how/why.
And that’s another (though related) can of worms.
Phil McCheddar on 07 Jul 2009 at 11:31 am #
Because of the many textual variants, almost all inerrantists limit inerrancy to the autographs. Concerning the textual variants, inerrantists usually say that God providentially protected the manuscripts so that no significant errors crept in, and so that the essential things in the Bible were all reliably preserved. Well, why can’t we say the same for the autographs? Why can’t we say that God’s inspiration of the writers was as far as was necessary to reliably communicate God’s message?
Even if Mark made a mistake and wrote Abiathar when he meant Ahimelech, it doesn’t affect the point of what Jesus was saying. The spiritual lessons for us today are the same whoever the high priest actually was.
Dave Z on 07 Jul 2009 at 11:42 am #
Curt writes:
“I’m not sure how errors can be inconsequential to the intent and trustworthiness of Scripture.”
Jesus makes his point about the Sabbath regardless of the possible error regarding the exact chronology. The intent comes across and is trustworthy.
I think it comes down to the nuance between inerrant and infallible. Actually, I think the term infallible places greater emphasis on the power of God to communicate through scripture. Inerrancy places the emphasis on the power of the words themselves. And we must remember the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding us into truth.
This leads to what I think is a point almost of disrespect to God in most evangelical statements of faith – typically the first point in the statement is “We believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible, inerrant in the autographs…” Second point – “Oh yeah, we believe in God too.” We have placed the product above the source. I understand the reasoning, but it still seems backwards. My own denomination changed that last year.
This emphasis on the words themselves leads us to treat each word of scripture as if God himself spoke it. Then we give lip service to the human role in writing scripture. “It’s not dictation” then we treat it as if it is. As I see it, verbal plenary IS dictation. I don’t see how anyone could argue otherwise.
I also can’t help but notice that NONE of the ancient statements of faith, or creeds, felt a need to include a statement about scripture. Inerrancy is the new kid on the block, an overswing of the pendulum in response to 19th century liberalism, and that alone means we should examine it closely to make sure we’re keeping the baby only and not the bathwater.
BTW, Curt, how do you do those italics?
EricW on 07 Jul 2009 at 11:57 am #
This leads to what I think is a point almost of disrespect to God in most evangelical statements of faith – typically the first point in the statement is “We believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible, inerrant in the autographs…” Second point – “Oh yeah, we believe in God too.” We have placed the product above the source. I understand the reasoning, but it still seems backwards. My own denomination changed that last year.
When we were studying the Orthodox Church, this was a point the priest made. I.e., whereas most Evangelical Protestant statements of faith begin with “What We Believe About: 1. The Bible…,” the Orthodox Church Statement of Faith (i.e., the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, the ΣΥΜΒΟΛΟΝ ΤΗΣ ΠΙΣΤΕΩΣ) begins:
“We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
“And in One Lord Jesus Christ….
“And in the Holy Spirit, the Lordly One (as Pelikan translates To Kurion),….”
Kudos to your denomination’s enlightenment.
EricW on 07 Jul 2009 at 12:05 pm #
Italics on is
less-than sign (above comma ,)
letter i
greater-than sign (above period .)
Italics off is
less-than sign
/ (below question mark ?)
letter i
greater-than sign
Underline on is (this does not work here, but it does at some blogs)
less-than sign
letter u
greater-than sign
Underline off is
less-than sign
/
letter u
greater-than sign
Bold on is
less-than sign
letter b
greater-than sign
Bold off is
less-than sign
/
letter b
greater-than sign
on is:
less-than sign
blockquote
greater-than sign
Blockquote off is
less-than sign
/
blockquote
greater-than sign
#John1453 on 07 Jul 2009 at 12:21 pm #
For ease of reference, I quote below the parallel passages in Matthew and Luke, which as CMP noted omit the reference to Abiathar:
Mark 2:26 “how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?” (ESV)
Matthew 12:4 “how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?” (ESV)
Luke 6:4 “how he entered the house of God and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those with him?” (ESV)
There may also be some confusion in the texts of the Old Testament as well: 1 Samuel 22:20, 2 Samuel 8:17, 1 Chronicles 18:6, 1 Chron. 14:3, 6, 31. A composite picture of the lineage might be Achitub, who fathers Ahimelech, who fathers Abiathar, who fathers Ahimelech.
In the five potential solutions listed by CMP, I suggest that it is not accurate in #3 to simply say that Jesus is “wrong”. There are far more issues at play here and more nuance is therefore required. Jesus was human: He suffered, felt pain, stumbled, and learned to walk as a child. Could not he have been forgetful just as we are? Or, less problematic, we know that in His pre-resurrection incarnation He did not possess ominscience: He did not know the “time” planned by His Father for the end. It would not, therefore, demean Jesus deity to have Him accurately report what he had heard or read (Abiathar as High Priest), though on the other hand the Biblical reporting of his great knowledge of the Bible (note his impression on the scribes, etc. when His parents took him to Jerusalem) would imply that Jesus likely did know the Old Testament text well.
Another way to approach Jesus human nature in relation to the story is that Jesus was “going with the flow” of a tradition that held Abiathar in high regard and used him as a reference point.
My main point, however, is that any explanation of what is going on in Mark 2:26 should also account for the humaness of Jesus.
Regards,
#John
Joshua on 07 Jul 2009 at 12:34 pm #
I’ll give you Inerrancy, heck ill even give you inerrancy in the “King James Only” sense.
Just explain to me how we can “rightly understand and correctly interpret” it Michael. =)
Dave Z on 07 Jul 2009 at 12:37 pm #
EricW, thank you. Saved for future reference.
Curt Parton on 07 Jul 2009 at 12:47 pm #
Phil McCheddar:
Comparing textual variants with Scriptural error: We have thousands of manuscripts to use to determine where error has crept into the texts. Do we have anything comparable for determining actual error in the original autographs? Science? Study of history? What about the multiple times that the Bible has proven to be correct when the almost-current scholarship was not? Or do we simply rely on a Magisterium?
Dave Z:
Good point on statements of faith. We’ve been talking about that in our church as well. The logic of the common approach is that Scripture is our primary source for knowledge of God, etc. But it does seem as if we’re putting the emphasis on the Bible rather than God or specifically Christ.
I don’t have a problem with nuance, but when “infallible” is one of the definitions of inerrant, I don’t really see the distinction. In my experience, inerrancy became such a loaded term that many people were just more comfortable speaking of the Bible as infallible. But how can a text containing error be infallible? I have a hard time describing an inaccuracy as God-breathed.
I can appreciate some of your trouble with the concept of verbal plenary inspiration, because I think it’s often been overemphasized to the point where it is almost indistinguishable from dictation. However, I would see room for nuance between the two. Dictation would be similar to the OT “Thus saith the Lord: . . .” Verbal plenary inspiration includes the words of Scripture, but is inspiration through the thoughtflow and language usage of Paul, Mark, etc. So we can compare what Paul means by justification with what James means without sacrificing the truth that the Spirit inspired both. He used their unique ways of expressing themselves. But this is a long way from saying that God allowed them to communicate error.
I think there’s a “lesser to greater” problem here. Jesus told Nicodemus that if he didn’t understand earthly things, how was he supposed to understand heavenly ones. In a similar way, back in my skeptic days I would have asked, “If Jesus was supposed to be God and he couldn’t even keep the historical details straight regarding his own chosen people, why should I trust him to tell me what is real regarding spiritual truth?”
(Thanks to EricW for sharing the HTML tips.)
Mikes Sumondong on 07 Jul 2009 at 12:52 pm #
First of all, I believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures. It’s GOD’s written words and everything has been written according to his will.
1. Text-critical: the text is wrong and needs to be emended
– If we can check back the oldest source of the Book of Mark then possibly we can prove or disprove this fact
2. Hermeneutical: our interpretation is wrong and needs to altered
– I think this is the most probable reason
3. Dominical: Jesus is wrong and this needs to be adjusted to
– Jesus can’t be wrong. PERIOD!
4. Source-critical: Mark’s source (Peter?) is wrong
– Possibly but who can prove?
5. Mark is wrong
– Possibly but who can prove?
6. The Old Testament is wrong, Christ corrects it
– It can’t be wrong.
The Book of Revelations says no one should add or remove even a letter from these scriptures (OLD or NEW). Doing so will bring condemnation. Jesus or GOD can’t be wrong because HE’S GOD!
It can’t be with an error because if it has even one, it makes everything wrong or unreliable.
Curt Parton on 07 Jul 2009 at 1:21 pm #
Let me ask this a different way:
So whenever specific details are necessary to communicate spiritual principles, then God kept the text free from error through divine inspiration. But when the details don’t directly relate to a specific principle, then God didn’t bother to preserve the integrity of the original text?
Isn’t that a little hard to swallow?
If God preserved some Scripture from error, why not all of it?
And if we were to find incontestable error in what is supposed to be God-breathed Scripture, doesn’t that call into question its inspiration? Or at least the infallible nature of any of it?
Dave Z on 07 Jul 2009 at 1:22 pm #
Curt,
Good points, but I think infallible goes to purpose, whereas inerrant goes beyond that. The Bible will do what God wants it to do, not because the words are perfect, but because it is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. It is not the words speaking, but the Spirit.
I know the arguments, but to me VP inspiration is still dictation. Maybe I’ll understand the difference someday, but it’s not happening today.
I always wonder, if the Bible is both divine and human, where the human parts are. I see a verse like this:
2Ti 4:13 When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.
(trying out the italics thing)
as Paul’s contribution. There is no need for inspiration in that personal comment. Why force in in there?
I also wonder exactly what “God-breathed” means? After all, Paul seems to have coined the term, and to my (very limited) knowledge, we don’t have a bunch of other greek usage to help determine meaning. If Paul was going to coin a term, why not coin “God-spoken” which would clear things up a bit?
Dave Z on 07 Jul 2009 at 1:30 pm #
To Mike,
Why can’t Jesus be wrong? He is without sin, but honest error is not sin. Scripture and theology do not require he be perfect in everything, only sinless.
Do you think that when Joseph taught him to use a chisel or plane Jesus did not make carpentry mistakes? That Joseph did not have to instruct him, he already knew it all? Was Jesus perfect at mathmatics? He knew pi to the final decimal? What are you requiring of this man who had “made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness”
Luke (2:52) says: And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and men.
In order to grow in wisdom, one (even Jesus) must be lacking in wisdom
clearblue on 07 Jul 2009 at 1:36 pm #
The proper translation of the word archiereus is ‘chief priest’ not ‘high priest’. The plural form is translated ‘chief priests’ in the Gospels regularly and includes the top members of the priestly circle. In other words, the word is not restricted to simply one man, the head honcho.
Duncan on 07 Jul 2009 at 1:36 pm #
If Jesus had used the the High Priest in question, instead of the one most often associated with David, we would now be discussing the cost of this ‘Sabbath made for man’.
For helping David the high priest lost his life, this would add another nuance to the augmentation of what was being said.
It is for this reason I feel no later scribe amended the text in Mark.
Any thoughts?
Matt Dabbs on 07 Jul 2009 at 1:42 pm #
Here is one I am interested to see how people work out.
Jethro is Moses father in law (Exo 3:1). But just a few verses prior he is called Reuel (Exo 2:18, see also Num 10:29). Here is where it gets confusing. In Judges 4:11 Moses’ father in law is referred to as Hobab. Numbers 10:29 says Hobab was Jethro’s son. So is Judges 4:11 wrong where the writer accidentally misread the Numbers text and put in Hobab rather than Jethro/Ruel?
W.F. Albright suggests it may be the difference between personal names and clan names and that in translation we are not quite understaning the distinctions they would have recognized. Additionally Ruel means “friend of God” but still seems like a personal name. The NIV translates חתן as “brother in law” with “father in law” in the footnotes. That is based on another suggestion by Albright that it might be a “misvocalization in the Hebrew text that could lead to “son in law” or “brother in law” – See Hughes in IVP Dictionary of the OT – Pentateuch, 468-469.
So we have a lot of assumptions here that are hard to distinguish between. It may have to do with language, culture, etc and fined tuned definitions that we are just not clear on today linguistically. Are there questions about the text and its accuracy? Yes. But not in places that really make a hill of beans of difference. And they can usually be explained in a way that makes a lot of sense. So I am very slow to assume error first before looking at the possibilities.
Even if we can’t work it out, I am not afraid to say that maybe I just don’t have all the pieces of the puzzle in front of me.
EricW on 07 Jul 2009 at 1:43 pm #
The Book of Revelations says no one should add or remove even a letter from these scriptures (OLD or NEW). Doing so will bring condemnation. Jesus or GOD can’t be wrong because HE’S GOD!
It can’t be with an error because if it has even one, it makes everything wrong or unreliable.
:rolleyes:
Curt Parton on 07 Jul 2009 at 1:45 pm #
Dave Z,
I hear you, and I appreciate your perspective. I’ve wrestled with some of this before. I’ve just come down in a slightly different place than you have.
I see the divine and humane nature of Scripture in much the same way I do that of Christ. Was the moment when Christ hit his thumb with a hammer a human moment or a divine one? I don’t know that we’re supposed to distinguish the two, either for Christ or the Bible.
Thanks for the exchange!
Dave Z on 07 Jul 2009 at 1:49 pm #
Curt, it could be argued that God did not preserve the text, especially of the NT, but it has been (mostly) recovered by guys like Dan Wallace, through textual criticism. As I understand it, there are real and significant differences between existing manuscripts. Bart Ehrman has abandoned the faith over that. But it doesn’t really bother me. The Spirit still speaks.
Read some of Dan Wallace’s writings for a scholar’s perspective. My knowledge is, as I said, very limited.
Dave Z on 07 Jul 2009 at 1:53 pm #
Curt, missed your last post as I posted.
Yes, I think we both have confidence in scripture, just looking at it from slightly different perspectives.
I agree we shouldn’t separate the divine from the human. I just want to be careful not to focus on one to the neglect of the other.
Curt Parton on 07 Jul 2009 at 2:04 pm #
Just want to clarify that in post #42 when I spoke of God preserving the text, I was referring to the original text in the autographs. God’s preservation of the text in the manuscript copies despite of (or through!) the textual variants is an interesting issue, but not the one I was intending.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 07 Jul 2009 at 3:45 pm #
“I also can’t help but notice that NONE of the ancient statements of faith, or creeds, felt a need to include a statement about scripture. Inerrancy is the new kid on the block, an overswing of the pendulum in response to 19th century liberalism, and that alone means we should examine it closely to make sure we’re keeping the baby only and not the bathwater.
(Stifling a yawn).
If for the sake of argument, this were a modern development, so what? It’s not as if critics of inerrancy are traditionalists.
Secondly, deeper thought would have caused one to reflect that ancient statements of faith or creeds did not have to include inerrancy because the truthfulness and trustworthiness of Scripture was generally not under attack.
Third, let’s take a look at what prominent Christians in the Early Church said about Scripture:
Clement of Rome, writing around the time of the apostles, comments:
“Look carefully into the Scriptures, which are the true utterances of the Holy Spirit. Observe that nothing of an unjust or counterfeit character is written in them.” (First Clement, 45)
Justin Martyr wrote:
“if you have done so because you imagined that you could throw doubt on the passage [of scripture], in order that I might say the Scriptures contradicted each other, you have erred. But I shall not venture to suppose or to say such a thing; and if a Scripture which appears to be of such a kind be brought forward, and if there be a pretext for saying that it is contrary to some other, since I am entirely convinced that no Scripture contradicts another, I shall admit rather that I do not understand what is recorded, and shall strive to persuade those who imagine that the Scriptures are contradictory, to be rather of the same opinion as myself.” (Dialogue With Trypho, 65)
(To be continued)
Truth Unites... and Divides on 07 Jul 2009 at 3:47 pm #
(continued from #53 above)
Irenaeus wrote:
“the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit…If, therefore, even with respect to creation, there are some things the knowledge of which belongs only to God, and others which come within the range of our own knowledge, what ground is there for complaint, if, in regard to those things which we investigate in the Scriptures (which are throughout spiritual), we are able by the grace of God to explain some of them, while we must leave others in the hands of God, and that not only in the present world, but also in that which is to come, so that God should for ever teach, and man should for ever learn the things taught him by God?…If, therefore, according to the rule which I have stated, we leave some questions in the hands of God, we shall both preserve our faith uninjured, and shall continue without danger; and all Scripture, which has been given to us by God, shall be found by us perfectly consistent; and the parables shall harmonize with those passages which are perfectly plain; and those statements the meaning of which is clear, shall serve to explain the parables; and through the many diversified utterances of Scripture there shall be heard one harmonious melody in us, praising in hymns that God who created all things.” (Against Heresies, 2:28:2-3)
Tertullian:
“The statements, however, of holy Scripture will never be discordant with truth.” (A Treatise On The Soul, 21)
Methodius:
“there is no contradiction nor absurdity in the Holy Scriptures” (From The Discourse On The Resurrection, 1:9)
Gregory Nazianzen comments:
“We however, who extend the accuracy of the Spirit to the merest stroke and tittle [Matthew 5:18], will never admit the impious assertion that even the smallest matters were dealt with haphazard by those who have recorded them, and have thus been borne in mind down to the present day: on the contrary, their purpose has been to supply memorials and instructions for our consideration under similar circumstances, should such befall us, and that the examples of the past might serve as rules and models, for our warning and imitation.” (Oration 2:105)
Augustine wrote:
“For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the manuscript is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it. As to all other writings, in reading them, however great the superiority of the authors to myself in sanctity and learning, I do not accept their teaching as true on the mere ground of the opinion being held by them; but only because they have succeeded in convincing my…
Truth Unites... and Divides on 07 Jul 2009 at 3:50 pm #
(continued from #54)
… judgment of its truth either by means of these canonical writings themselves, or by arguments addressed to my reason. I believe, my brother, that this is your own opinion as well as mine. I do not need to say that I do not suppose you to wish your books to be read like those of prophets or of apostles, concerning which it would be wrong to doubt that they are free from error.” (Letter 82:1:3)
P.S. FWIW, I don’t understand how churches or denominations can ordain people who believe Scripture teaches error.
Dave Z on 07 Jul 2009 at 4:01 pm #
I don’t believe scripture teaches error. I don’t even wonder if it contains error. I’d almost say I dont care. The Spirit still speaks with power and authority. God’s ability to communicate is not held hostage to inerrancy.
I am not unaware of the quotes you provide. I would point out that many of those you quote accepted books that we DO NOT believe are inerrant, such as The Shepherd. In the same vein, the canon was not finalized, so the extent of what they called scripture is uncertain at best.
And the point remains that the ancients did not insist on making the veracity of scripture a central tenet in ANY ancient creed. Yawn as much as you like.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 07 Jul 2009 at 4:34 pm #
I think CMP had a post or two about doctrinal development. Something like: How aberrant teaching in later and later years will then spur later doctrinal development to correct the new errors that have crept in.
Elementary, really.
Dave S on 07 Jul 2009 at 5:15 pm #
I find this satisfying:
http://www.tektonics.org/tsr/abby.html
Dave Z on 07 Jul 2009 at 5:43 pm #
I don’t disagree with that. And I think 19th century liberal attempts to portray the Bible as a simply human book had to be dealt with. I just think the pendulum swung too far. As if evangelical believers said “Not only is the Bible trustworthy, it’s…it’s…INERRANT!
Mind you, I am rejecting neither the authority or trustworthiness of scripture, nor am I trying to “get around” some doctrine I don’t like. I just think inerrancy is unnecessary. Remember that well-respected, conservative, evangelical believers such as James Orr did not hold to inerrancy.
And to tell the truth, my issue is more with verbal plenary inspiration. If God inspired the Bible verbally – to the very word choice, as Grudem and Erickson, for example believe, it’s dictation, plain and simple. And I cannot accept dictation. I believe that when Paul says, “I have no command from the Lord,” he means just that. He adds his judgment, which is just that, his judgment. When he asks Timothy to bring his cloak, it’s a personal request, not direct words from God.
My take is more like what Roger Olson calls “dynamic inspiration.” God inspires the content which the writers express in their own words.
Really, I don’t think language is exact enough to fully express the details of God’s thought. Look at this blog. Virtually everyone has tremendous respect for the Bible, yet we don’t agree on what the words mean. And we disobey Paul when he warns, not once, but twice about quarreling over words. ” it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.”
Dang, now I feel a little guilty abouty posting.
Kirby L. Wallace on 07 Jul 2009 at 11:09 pm #
Bethyada… “And I can’t resolve the 3 Peter denials yet.”
They aren’t contradictions. There’s nothing to resolve.
Peter was lying.
Jason C on 08 Jul 2009 at 5:39 am #
Bethyada, remember that Mark is traditionally seen as the recollections of Peter. It seems reasonable that he would take the time to give a fuller account of his failings than the other gospel writers. Brutal honesty about their own weaknesses seemed to be a characteristic of the early Christians.
Including unnecessary details just adds to the amount of papyrus you have to buy.
bethyada on 08 Jul 2009 at 5:59 am #
By the 3 denials problem I mean that the persons questioning Peter seem to be more than 3 if all the gospels are taken together.
Joshua Allen on 08 Jul 2009 at 7:31 am #
I think Dave Z had the key insight:
This leads to what I think is a point almost of disrespect to God in most evangelical statements of faith – typically the first point in the statement is “We believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible, inerrant in the autographs…” Second point – “Oh yeah, we believe in God too.” We have placed the product above the source. I understand the reasoning, but it still seems backwards. My own denomination changed that last year.
Someone quoted Iranaeus, and we should also remember that there were heretics exposed in “Against the Heresies” who were taking the scriptures far too “literally” and reductively, reading scripture into the exact numerical position of the characters. They, too, would defend their practice by citing Revelation’s admonishment to “not change or remove one character” as proof that the character position was imbued with significance and could not be overlooked (i.e. changed) as being less relevant.
IMO, someone who insists on missing the point of that scripture by nattering over the name of the high priest, when there are multiple plausible explanations, is committing the same error as those heretics that Iranaeus exposed.
EricW on 08 Jul 2009 at 7:46 am #
IMO, someone who insists on missing the point of that scripture by nattering over the name of the high priest, when there are multiple plausible explanations, is committing the same error as those heretics that Iranaeus exposed.
“nattering”?
I haven’t heard or read that word since Spiro T. Agnew uttered it. In fact, I never heard it before Agnew, nor have I heard it since. Thanks for resurrecting it!
(Public speeches since Agnew have lost their “bite.” Though he was a crook, he always helped increase one’s vocabulary, and he had a great way with words and phrases, even though his remarks were negative or derogatory.)
ScottL on 08 Jul 2009 at 8:59 am #
One of the problems I have had with most inerrancy statements, such as the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, is the continual emphasis on inerrancy only applying to the original autographs. We see this in Article 10 of the Chicago Statement:
WE AFFIRM that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. We further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original.
WE DENY that any essential element of the Christian faith is affected by the absence of the autographs. We further deny that this absence renders the assertion of Biblical inerrancy invalid or irrelevant.
The thing is that we will probably never have these originals, and at least the reality is that we don’t have them now. So why keep talking about something we don’t have and will probably never have? Why not get on with stating the copies that we do have are God-breathed and knowing they are reliable.
Also, a question I have pondered is, if the originals were to be without error in every jot and tittle, why didn’t God sovereignly preserve the originals? I know any mistakes in the copies we have do not change any major doctrinal issue about our faith. But if we want to keep emphasising God’s desire to make sure every jot and tittle was perfect in the originals, why wouldn’t He preserve these perfect originals rather than letting us deal with less than perfect copies?
I don’t suppose we can answer such questions, but I ponder them. I just don’t know if we are being too anal about Scripture like the Muslims are with the Koran or how Mormons teach the Book of Mormon came about. It seems over the top.
EricW on 08 Jul 2009 at 9:15 am #
The thing is that we will probably never have these originals, and at least the reality is that we don’t have them now. So why keep talking about something we don’t have and will probably never have? Why not get on with stating the copies that we do have are God-breathed and knowing they are reliable.
In view of the fact that the early Christians and the apostles and the authors of the New Testament considered the Greek translation of the Old Testament – which differed at times in wording and meaning from the Hebrew text and was not in any sense of the term the OT autograph (nor pretended to be) – to be the inspired and authoritative Scriptures, I wonder how they would have regarded Evangelicals’ view of and belief in “inerrancy,” and their insistence that inspiration only applied, strictly speaking, to the original autographs?
roblundberg on 08 Jul 2009 at 9:41 am #
I have just skimmed through much of the postings and I am probably going to post somewhere along the lines of what some others are saying here.
Norm Geisler in his When Critics Ask has a good point to bring into the discussion on this passage (Mark 2:26),
First Samuel is correct in stating that the high priest was Ahimelech. On the other neither was Jesus wrong. When we take a closer look at Christ’s words, we notice that He used the phrase “in the days of Abiathar” which does not necessarily imply that Abiathar was high priest a the time that David ate the bread.”
If we look back at 1 Samuel 22:17-19, King Saul killed Ahimelech and Abiathar escaped and went to David (1 Sam. 22:20). Abiathar later is made the high priest. Even though Abiathar was made the high priest after David ate the bread, it is still correct, because Abiathar was alive when David did this, and soon following he became the high priest after his father’s murder. Therefore it was during the TIME of Abiathar, and not during his TENURE in the position of the high priest
ScottL on 08 Jul 2009 at 10:03 am #
Eric -
That is another question I have had. If inerrancy applies to the original autorgraphs, but the NT authors generally quoted from the Greek OT translations instead of the original Hebrew manuscripts, then are we making too much of the originals?
I would say we are putting too many eggs in the basket of the originals. If God was so focused on the originals, I somewhat sense He would have preserved them.
EricW on 08 Jul 2009 at 10:14 am #
ScottL:
I think a problem for the popular Evangelical view of Scripture and some Evangelicals’ adherence to and insistence on the historical-grammatical method/hermeneutic is that one finds the inspired authors of the New Testament at times apparently differing with them.
Curt Parton on 08 Jul 2009 at 11:01 am #
Hopefully, no one is obsessed with the priestly status of Abiathar, so we’re discussing this specific issue as one example illustrating deeper principles of scriptural interpretation and authority. That’s not nattering, is it? (I am not a nabob!)
It’s helpful to remember why inerrancy became such a focus in recent church history. Regardless of our opinions of how changes were handled in the Southern Baptist Convention, they were fighting an encroaching liberalism and it was tied to certain views of Scripture that denied aspects of its authoritative nature. Many of my Episcopalian friends tell me the problems they are currently suffering actually began years ago with a loosening of views on the Bible. So there were serious problems being addressed.
I see our present conversation differently, as more of a fine-tuning of what exactly we mean by Scripture being authoritative and how the presence of errors may or may not affect this authority. As Dave Z warned, I think we need to avoid a mere quarrel over words. But I think we can still challenge each others’ thinking and sharpen our understanding of just what the role is that Scripture plays in our faith.
The use of the Septuagint by the apostles can be a challenge to the overly technical way that we sometimes interpret Scripture. This could also call into question the dictation form of inspiration that I think most of us would reject. But do any of you see this usage as making the Bible fallible rather than infallible? And, if so, how?
[Side note to Dave Z: I haven't read Roger Olson on his view of "dynamic inspiration," but your description doesn't sound incompatible with my earlier description of plenary verbal inspiration through the thoughtflow and language of the human writers. Maybe I might tweak your description by adding editing by God where necessary to maintain the integrity of the message. What do you think?]
Curt Parton on 08 Jul 2009 at 11:20 am #
Regarding the inerrancy of the autographs and the imperfect manuscripts: Some would argue that God has used the incredible number of manuscripts to preserve (at least to a large degree) the integrity of the text. We can be certain of the original reading of most of the New Testament. And where we’re not certain, we all can know what the exact issues and options are. This actually gives me a lot of confidence in the integrity of the text. (Much more so than if one church institution had “preserved” an official “pure” version.)
But I fail to see how this situation would militate against a view of Scripture as infallible or inerrant. Why would our current inability to arrive at a perfectly pristine edition of the NT mean that God probably didn’t care if some errors were communicated in the original? As someone wrote earlier in this thread, it goes back to intent. Did God intend to give us Scripture that contained some error, or did He intend to communicate through human writers in such a way that the resulting Scripture perfectly communicated His message without error? I don’t see anything in Scripture or the writings of the early church that shows an acknowledgment of error in the Bible. So which understanding is the innovation?
Dave Z gave an example of Paul in 1 Corinthians 7. Exegetically, I would say that Jesus had previously addressed a specific part of the issue, but not the rest. So Paul is no longer making a direct reference to Christ’s previous teaching, but giving additional, authoritative instruction as His apostle. But let’s assume Dave Z’s interpretation. Does that mean we should weigh Paul’s opinion the same way we would a pastor/teacher today? Could Paul be wrong in this passage? If he could be wrong, in what way is such Scripture authoritative? And if we say ‘no, it’s infallible, authoritative Scripture’ on the basis of his status as apostle (or author of Scripture), what’s the difference between this view and inerrancy?
roblundberg on 08 Jul 2009 at 11:31 am #
Let me go back to the Mike’s original post where he mentioned Dan Wallace’s five possible reasons for the problem of Mark 2:26. I am not going to sum all of them but just bring out the one that caught my attention. That was #2, the hermeneutical, where the interpretation is wrong and it needs to be amended.
I was listening this morning to a past podcast with Greg Koukl and Ben Witherington, and if I were to apply the discussion on textual interpretation and transmission, a hyper-Fundamental interpretation of Mark 2:26 would no doubt create a tenacious headache for 1 Samuel 21 and vice versa. However with a good look at the original language, it would be easy to understand how a small pronoun’s interpretation (i.e., “epi”) brings about a broad understanding of how phrases about time periods could be broad, given their context and word usage and all the other hermeneutical stupf that goes into understanding the text. Time period in the general sense is the understanding and not Abiathar’s tenure as high priest. (my posting at #67).
Dave Z on 08 Jul 2009 at 7:26 pm #
One of the biggest problems for me is when Paul says “I wish all men were as I am,” meaning single. If God inspired every word, then that is God’s wish too. That creates a problem with the creation account and the ability of humanity to be “fruitful and multiply.” If that’s God’s wish, then he should have specially created every individual into a sexless, marriageless world.
If, OTOH, God created and blessed sexuality and ordained marriage, then the statement must be Paul’s personal opinion, different than God’s and without the weight of inspiration.
I opt for Paul’s opinion, which has the added benefit of being the most obvious and sensible reading of the words “I wish.”
I also think that is made clear by the rest of the sentence. Paul basically says, “I wish, but that’s not how it is.” Would God say that?
roblundberg on 08 Jul 2009 at 9:28 pm #
God did inspire every word, but I don’t think God is wishing to be single. He is ONE already in His nature. I see a problem in the logic here Dave, unless I am missing something. Are you saying that because God inspired every word there is an equivocation with Paul. If that is Paul’s wish then it is God’s wish too? We need to understand inspiration here. God inspired the words, and allowed the personalities of the writers to stay in tact. That being said, God is allowing the wish of Paul, but it is not the same in other contexts of the Bible. One can wish something and not be a participant in the fulfillment of the wish.
Dave Z on 08 Jul 2009 at 11:01 pm #
I would agree if the passage was reporting what someone else said, but in this case, the words are the writer’s. If God inspires each and every word (verbal plenary), as most evangelicals believe (at least on a practical level, though they pay lip service to the writer’s contribution), then the opinion of an individual writer should not be in the mix. What’s more, Paul’s opinion seems to be at odds with God’s.
So, I agree with you that in that verse, Paul, not God, is speaking. But I do not think most evangelicals would be comfortable with that. They would be concerned that if we take that verse as Paul’s opinion, why not others? For example, Paul’s teachings on women in the church. Complemetarians exist because they believe that Paul wrote God’s words, not his own opinion.
In post 59, I raised a similar point:
or his opinion.
Curt sees it this way in post 71:
I might agree with Curt more easily if Paul had issued a command, but he did not. He offered a judgment.
How many of us obey Paul or would even agree with Paul on this: “But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is– and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.
Do we all agree widows are happier if they stay single? Or that that is God’s perspective?
How about this: 7:29 What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;”
I know that if I tried that, I wouldn’t have to live as if I had none for very long…
How many of us preach that verse?
Please understand, I’m just trying to muddle my way through this stuff and arrive at a position that seems to make sense without too many hermeneutical gymnastics. As of now, I’m at “dynamic inspiration” and pretty comfortable with it, in spite of some who would pronounce me a heretic.
Jason C on 09 Jul 2009 at 1:46 am #
Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee. Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly. Matthew
And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest: And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth. But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew. And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them. And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto. But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak. And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept. Mark
Then took they him, and led him, and brought him into the high priest’s house. And Peter followed afar off. And when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the hall, and were set down together, Peter sat down among them. But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him. And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not. And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not. And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean. And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew. And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And Peter went out, and wept bitterly. Luke
Jason C on 09 Jul 2009 at 1:54 am #
Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man’s disciples? He saith, I am not… They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not. One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him? Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew. John
So we have a maid first in all four accounts, location varying somewhat, which is expected in oral accounts particularly in the Ancient Near Eastern form of story telling. A maid secondly in three accounts and an unspecified “they” in John. Thirdly an unspecified “they” in Matthew and Mark, and an unspecified “another” in Luke, whilst John identifies his accuser as a kinsman of the man Peter injured.
Bethyada, I really don’t see the problem.
bethyada on 09 Jul 2009 at 2:06 am #
Aaron Rathburn Michael wrote, “…God is perfect and without error…the Bible is God’s word. Conclusion? The Bible is perfect and without error.”
While this sounds like a tidy syllogism, it actually is logically invalid.
You logic is reasonable, but there are probably unsaid premises in this syllogism. And even so, there are other reasons for thinking that inerrancy is true. 2 Timothy 3:16 is a strong contender for inerrancy. There is also good reason to think that Jesus believed in inerrancy; see, for example, the discussion with the Sadducees.
bethyada on 09 Jul 2009 at 2:31 am #
ScottL That is another question I have had. If inerrancy applies to the original autorgraphs, but the NT authors generally quoted from the Greek OT translations instead of the original Hebrew manuscripts, then are we making too much of the originals?
ScottL, inerrancy applies to copies and to translations in general. The mention of the originals isn’t to say that we need the originals, or only defend the originals, or that copies or translations are incorrect. I defend inerrancy from the English translations because I don’t speak Hebrew or Greek.
The mention of the originals is because at times copies or translations make mistakes. If someone points out an error in the Bible but the error is due to poor translation there is no need to defend the translation because that is not actually what was written.
Take clearblue’s comment#45. Let’s say that clearblue’s solution happens to be the correct one. If this is the case then the contradiction occurs because translations use the term highpriest when the term is actually chief priest. Thus the original is not in error, but the translation introduces error.
The comment about originals is not to focus on those particular manuscripts, rather to focus on what the Bible actually says.
bethyada on 09 Jul 2009 at 2:40 am #
Concerning the apostles use of the Septuagint, it is not that simple. At times the quotes resemble the Septuagint, at times they resemble the Masoretic (which is 1000 years post Christ) and at times neither. I have heard about a third each but I am not certain. At other times the quote is paraphrased, and there are many allusions.
This is not a problem if the versions agree on the point being made, that is if one changes the version and the point is still valid, there is no conflict.
Now that is not always the case, but the Hebrew of the first century and before is not fully known. The Dead Sea Scrolls (Hebrew) at times are similar to the Septuagint rather than the Masoretic.
Unless one is going to insist that the Masoretic is the closest to the original Hebrew (which I am not convinced of), I don’t think the use of variant Hebrew or the Septuagint is a problem.
I would be interested in Daniel Wallace weighing in on these issues.
ScottL on 09 Jul 2009 at 3:31 am #
bethyada -
ScottL, inerrancy applies to copies and to translations in general. The mention of the originals isn’t to say that we need the originals, or only defend the originals, or that copies or translations are incorrect. I defend inerrancy from the English translations because I don’t speak Hebrew or Greek.
The mention of the originals is because at times copies or translations make mistakes. If someone points out an error in the Bible but the error is due to poor translation there is no need to defend the translation because that is not actually what was written.
This is where I feel we are trying to force a nice and neat package in regards to Scripture and the nature of inerrancy. In the end, I feel we are having to do a little dance to make inerrancy work and fit. In the end, we find ourselves saying, ‘Well, what that means is this and what that means is that.’ Maybe there is too much dancing with our explanations.
And you cannot defend inerrancy in regards to our English translations, at least if you want to stay within the bounds of the more stringent evangelical view as expressed in places like the Chicago Statement. So I don’t know how we can say that inerrancy applies to the copies and manuscripts ‘in general’. Inerrancy, at least by most evangelical views (as summarised in the Chicago Statement) is quite stringent and applies to the autographs. So to say the copies are ‘generally’ inerrant will lead down the slippery slope path that most evangelicals won’t like.
In the end, I believe God’s word is perfect, faithful, true and God-breathed. The Scripture testifies to this. But I want to understand what those terms mean from the author’s perspective who penned the words, and from God’s intent when He knew He would be communicating through humanity. I am afraid we are reading a modern understanding of inerrancy into Scripture.
And 2 Tim 3:16 does not teach inerrancy, well unless you try and say ‘God-breathed’ means ‘inerrant’. But the God-breathedness points to it coming by His Spirit (theopneustos), not that the autographs are stringently inerrant, since Paul didn’t have the autographs when he wrote those words to Timothy.
John T III on 09 Jul 2009 at 8:48 am #
I have to ask How popular to the group Jesus was speaking to was Abiathar?
I also would have to state that it doesn’t say that he was High Priest at that time just that during his life was when the incident happened.
EricW on 09 Jul 2009 at 9:01 am #
This is where I feel we are trying to force a nice and neat package in regards to Scripture and the nature of inerrancy. In the end, I feel we are having to do a little dance to make inerrancy work and fit. In the end, we find ourselves saying, ‘Well, what that means is this and what that means is that.’ Maybe there is too much dancing with our explanations.
Touché!
When or if you have to define and qualify and nuance and explain what you mean by “inerrant/inerrancy” beyond the straightforward and simple “without error – period – in every way, shape and form,” then you are no longer talking about or dealing with “inerrancy,” but with an errant definition of inerrancy, or with something that might largely look like inerrant/inerrancy, but is not in fact inerrant/inerrancy.
A light is either on or off.
You are either pregnant or not pregnant.
Period.
Of course, you can define “Biblical inerrancy” as being something different than what the term “inerrancy” means when applied to other things.
Aaron Rathburn on 09 Jul 2009 at 9:24 am #
Any debate over the NT author’s use of the OT need to bear in mind the 1st-century context. The apostles did not abide by 21st-century standards of MLA citation. Their hermeneutic is deeply shaped by Second Temple Judaism, which would be considered a joke to post-Enlightenment scholars. However, this is the means through which God chose to work, so we need to understand their hermeneutic and not impose our own.
The Septuagint, to everyone interested by the way, is not merely a translation of the Hebrew. It comes from a completely different textual tradition, which is why Esther has more chapters, and there are various passages in psalms, prophets, etc., that have completely different text. Moreover, the OT canon was not closed or defined by the time of the NT.
So which scriptures are God-breathed? Certainly 2Tim3:16 isn’t talking about the New Testament. And it certainly isn’t talking about the Protestant Old Testament, either.
Aaron Rathburn on 09 Jul 2009 at 9:24 am #
bethyada,
Genesis 2:7, “then the lord Yahweh formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life”
I am God-breathed. Does this make me inerrant?
Curt Parton on 09 Jul 2009 at 9:28 am #
Here’s a compelling example: Psalm 82 was written by Asaph, with no qualifying “Thus saith the Lord.” But in John 10:35, Jesus refers to this as Scripture, appeals to one specific word (“gods”), and insists that the Scripture cannot be broken. Any other word in the original passage other than “gods” would render His point meaningless. This sounds very similar to verbal, plenary inspiration.
Does that mean that every statement in Scripture can equally be attributed to God? Obviously not. We have statements from Satan and other ungodly comments recorded in the Bible. This view would only mean that the statements are recorded accurately.
But what of the examples that Dave Z has given where Paul may or may not be giving his personal opinion. Does that mean that this is also the opinion of God because Paul is writing infallible Scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? I don’t see any reason why it must, and this is really not an issue for only those who hold to inerrancy but for anyone who holds to the inspiration of Scripture? (Is it all inspired, or only the “spiritual” parts? And who gets to judge which is which?)
I think Dave Z got to the heart of this issue in post 75 when he said:
I might agree with Curt more easily if Paul had issued a command, but he did not. He offered a judgment.
Without debating any specific passage, I think that is precisely the point we would need to examine. Where Paul is writing his personal opinion, we can have confidence that this opinion was infallibly recorded, and then process it as his personal opinion. When he is giving instruction (which is not always labeled as such), we accept it as infallible instruction from Christ though one of His apostles. When we have a passage where there may be some uncertainty whether it’s opinion or instruction, then we have an exegetical issue to work through. It’s not a question of the passage being infallible or inerrant, but whether it’s intended to be instruction from God.
A second issue is the hermeneutical question of how we apply the passage to us today. But, again, this is not just a problem for inerrantists, but for all inspirationists. (Is that a word? I guess it is now!) Did Paul write 2 Timothy under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? What about 2 Timothy 4:13?
The claim that the Bible is infallible or inerrant doesn’t mean that each passage is going to be equally significant or applicable. It just means that everything taught and recorded in Scripture is perfectly and consistently reliable. This doesn’t alleviate the need for good biblical interpretation.
EricW on 09 Jul 2009 at 9:33 am #
Aaron Rathburn on 09 Jul 2009 at 9:24 am # bethyada, Genesis 2:7, “then the lord Yahweh formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life” I am God-breathed. Does this make me inerrant?
You are God-breathed? I thought your name was “Aaron,” not “Adam.”
EricW on 09 Jul 2009 at 9:35 am #
Did Paul write 2 Timothy under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? What about 2 Timothy 4:13?
A larger question: Did Paul write 2 Timothy? It’s not a totally proven and accepted conclusion. From Wikipedia:
Many modern biblical scholars argue that 2 Timothy, along with the other Pastoral Epistles, was not written by Paul but by an anonymous follower of the Apostle in the first century AD after Paul’s death, who also wrote 1 Timothy and Titus.[1] However, the ideas and language of this epistle is notably different from the other two Pastoral letters yet similar to the later Pauline letters, especially the ones he wrote in captivity. This has led at least some scholars to conclude that the author of 2 Timothy is a different person from 1 Timothy and Titus. Raymond E. Brown proposed that this letter was written by a follower of Paul who had knowledge of Paul’s last days.[2]
Jerome Murphy-O’Connor, however, would go further than Brown. He noted that a number of pseudepigraphic letters attributed to the Apostle were rejected in antiquity, indicating that there was not “a climate of acceptance, which would make it easy for the forged Pastorals to enter the mainstream of church life.” Murphy-O’Connor continues,
Realistically, the only scenario capable of explaining the acceptance of the Pastorals is the authenticity of one of the three letters. Were one to have been long known and recognized, then the delayed “discovery” of two others with the same general pattern could be explained in a variety of convincing ways.[3]
Murphy-O’Connor then argues, based in part on recent research on the style of this work, that 2 Timothy was the authentic one of the trio. It was not widely known due to its private nature, but eventually published for the benefit of the church. Using it as a model, O`Conner suggests one of Paul’s followers then wrote the other two Pastorals and was able to persuade his fellows that they were also previously unknown letters of Paul.[4]
It should be noted that the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia takes an opposite point of view, affirming Paul’s authorship and documents the fact that a vast majority of the early church fathers attest to Paul’s authorship of all the pastoral epistles.
Curt Parton on 09 Jul 2009 at 10:03 am #
bethyada clarified:
The mention of the originals is because at times copies or translations make mistakes. If someone points out an error in the Bible but the error is due to poor translation there is no need to defend the translation because that is not actually what was written.
And ScottL responded:
This is where I feel we are trying to force a nice and neat package in regards to Scripture and the nature of inerrancy. In the end, I feel we are having to do a little dance to make inerrancy work and fit. In the end, we find ourselves saying, ‘Well, what that means is this and what that means is that.’ Maybe there is too much dancing with our explanations.
I don’t see this as dancing around anything. bethyada isn’t creating the difference between the autographs and manuscript copies out of whole cloth—this is a fact we all have to deal with. And bethyada’s comments are not core to the understanding of the inerrancy of Scripture, but simply working out the technicalities of how the inerrancy of the original autographs would apply to later copies. This is a related technical issue that was thrown out by others, and to then accuse bethyada of “doing a little dance” by responding to such a related issue is not really fair.
EricW adds:
Touché!
When or if you have to define and qualify and nuance and explain what you mean by “inerrant/inerrancy” beyond the straightforward and simple “without error – period – in every way, shape and form,” then you are no longer talking about or dealing with “inerrancy,” but with an errant definition of inerrancy, or with something that might largely look like inerrant/inerrancy, but is not in fact inerrant/inerrancy.
A light is either on or off.
You are either pregnant or not pregnant.
Period.
Again, this is unfair to comments addressing a related, more complex issue. But regardless, this approach seems very simplistic and reductionistic. Would you take the same approach to a discussion of the Trinity? If such a discussion involved definition, qualification, nuance and explanation, would you therefore assume that the viewpoint is faulty? Is every teaching of Scripture and point of theology perfectly obvious without any need for serious study and deep reflection?
Over-complicating something can be a problem for any viewpoint, whether it’s right or wrong. Yes, it can sometimes reveal that the view in question can’t be discussed at a simple level and may therefore be questionable. This is just not the case for inerrancy. It can be presented very simply. But there is an equal danger of over-simplifying deep and significant issues. And any issue, whether it’s simple or not, will usually lead to other questions, implications, applications, etc. Exploring such things is not “dancing around” anything.
ScottL on 09 Jul 2009 at 10:31 am #
Curt -
Read bethyada’s comments. I am not trying to be nasty, but I point out that she is trying to apply inerrancy to the copies. She is not trying to do it legalistically, but she said it works in a general sense. But the copies are not inerrant in the way we try and use the word (as usually seen in places like the Chicago Statement). So why try and use the word to describe the copies? If we do try and use inerrancy to describe the copies and translations we have, then we have to re-explain what that means, tying in the originals and other such stuff. I can’t see God really being that bothered that we go through the whole rig-a-ma-roar every time we explain what inerrancy means (at least what it means in the 21st century).
Still, I believe the copies, and even our translations today, are God-breathed and reliable and faithful to being God’s Word to humanity. And this is why I don’t think we need to begin making inerrancy statements about the autographs that we will never ever have. If God was so focused on inerrancy, especially in regards to the autographs, I suppose He would have made the effort to preserve them, at least so our modern day evangelical definition could be satisfied. But the manuscripts and translations we have do not take away from God’s perfection as God or the God-breathed nature of the Scriptures. When I read my ESV copy, the God-breathedness of the Spirit comes out of the words. That is the point and purpose of the Scriptures.
rayner markley on 09 Jul 2009 at 10:33 am #
Curt Parton: ‘Did God intend to give us Scripture that contained some error, or did He intend to communicate through human writers in such a way that the resulting Scripture perfectly communicated His message without error?’
Perhaps God didn’t intend to give us scripture at all. Jesus could have written something authoritative, but He didn’t. Jesus told us to spread the gospel and the gospel is a living idea, not a written word. No written word can be inerrant in the sense of a perfect representation of truth because it’s subject to the vagaries of human language and to all the kinds of things that can create errors over time.
I agree with Dave Z that certain passages I Corinthians 7 are Paul’s own judgment, and I would say that Paul was wrong there for the reasons Dave gave. Certainly this part of scripture isn’t inspired in the same way as other parts where Paul does claim to have a command from the Spirit. Paul is actually saying that these parts are not divinely inspired, yet we want to ignore that in order to uphold a principle of total inspiration. We’re saying that here Paul was inspired to write an uninspired personal judgment.
God’s message to us cannot be given perfectly in any single language. That may be why Jesus didn’t write anything, and why at Pentecost people heard the message each in his own language. The writing of scriptures and assembling of the canon are largely a human effort produced according to the best understanding of devout men guided by the Spirit. The way that the Spirit guided them (and guides us) is by the idea of the gospel of Jesus, not by the words themselves. Note that in his teaching Paul never refers to the words of Jesus.
Curt Parton on 09 Jul 2009 at 10:59 am #
Scott,
I questioned the fairness of your argument, but I didn’t mean to make you sound nasty! I’m sorry if I did. But your original complaint is something I hear at times regarding many different kinds of issues. Questions and complications will be thrown out as challenges, and then when they’re addressed the responders are accused of over-complicating the issue.
I do think that you’re taking bethyada’s comment about inerrancy applying in general (her emphasis) out of the context of how she explains and applies what she means. You write:
Still, I believe the copies, and even our translations today, are God-breathed and reliable and faithful to being God’s Word to humanity.
I wouldn’t argue with that (with bethyada’s caveat regarding translational or transmissional error), and I suspect neither would bethyada. I think a big part of our problem may be semantics. I don’t see a whole lot of difference between “God-breathed and reliable and faithful” and inerrant.
If God was so focused on inerrancy, especially in regards to the autographs, I suppose He would have made the effort to preserve them, at least so our modern day evangelical definition could be satisfied.
Not to beat this to death, but many would argue that by the sheer number of manuscript copies we have available and the great degree of certainty we enjoy regarding the actual reading of the NT, He has in fact done this to the extent necessary.
Aaron Rathburn on 09 Jul 2009 at 11:05 am #
As far as I’m concerned, the King James Version of the holy scriptures are the only true and inerrant English scriptures, and God’s providence guided the translators to perfection.
Moreover, as Protestants, we can technically ignore the original King James Version, because it included the Apocrypha. It is safest to cut out the parts of the Bible that we used for the first 1,500 years, and use our miniature version from the past 500 years.
There’s a reason it’s known as the “Authorized” version. If it was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me.
EricW on 09 Jul 2009 at 11:06 am #
Not to beat this to death, but many would argue that by the sheer number of manuscript copies we have available and the great degree of certainty we enjoy regarding the actual reading of the NT, He has in fact done this to the extent necessary.
Can this be said about the OT text as well?
Curt Parton on 09 Jul 2009 at 11:14 am #
Rayner,
Even though God’s message may not be able to be expressed perfectly through language, I reject the idea that it cannot be communicated adequately and sufficiently. Obviously, there is much more than words to God’s truth and the life He calls us to live. Still, when Christ sent out the apostles, He sent them with a message. Regardless of when these things were written down, there was verbal content from the very beginning. Even Jesus Himself went about preaching the gospel of the Kingdom—again verbal content.
Actually the profundity of the spoken word is all through Scripture, going back to the beginning when God is depicted as speaking everything into being. And this emphasis on content continues through the NT where teachings are passed on and expected to be passed on to others (e.g. 2 Timothy 2:2).
My guess is that many in this thread who have problems with the concept of inerrancy would also strongly disagree with your understanding concerning the inspiration of Scripture.
Curt Parton on 09 Jul 2009 at 11:31 am #
Can this be said about the OT text as well?
EricW,
That’s a good question. I’m not a textual scholar, so hopefully others will give more information. My understanding is that the OT text is not as well-attested as the New (which is unsurpassed in its integrity compared to any other ancient document), but still very well-attested. The Jewish scribes had much more exacting standards in their copying of the texts, and the Dead Sea Scrolls bear out their success (in some books). But again, even where there are uncertainties, or differences between the LXX and the Masoretic texts, we are well aware of them and able to interpret accordingly.
In a very real sense, because of the way the Scriptures have been transmitted through multiple copies, they are self-correcting. This is very different from alleged errors in the actual text of Scripture as originally recorded. These have no way of self-correcting but, if legitimately errors, put us in the unenviable position of correcting Scripture ourselves. That’s not a responsibility I care to take on.
Lisa Robinson on 09 Jul 2009 at 7:28 pm #
Aaron said:
“So which scriptures are God-breathed? Certainly 2Tim3:16 isn’t talking about the New Testament. And it certainly isn’t talking about the Protestant Old Testament, either.”
So what is it talking about then? And what is Scripture, but sacred authoritative writing? Would you also say that the holy men spoken about in 2 Peter 1:21 were only Old Testament prophets and not applicable to the apostolic eyewitnesses in the process of receiving inspiration?
Your statement denies the propheticity of Scripture and God’s superintending inspiration.
Shrommer on 09 Jul 2009 at 10:54 pm #
I haven’t looked into this angle, but could we be misreading the O.T.? This is similar to asking if Jesus is correcting the O.T. Perhaps Jesus and the O.T. are both correct, yet we read the O.T. the wrong way. For instance, the KJV has “Ahimelech the priest” instead of “Ahimelech the high priest” in I Samuel 21. Mark 2:26 tells us that the high priest was Abiathar. David went in and saw a priest named Ahimelech, who may or may not have been high priest at the time, and Jesus tells us from Jewish history who the high priest was at the time David went in. Just because David spoke with a team member doesn’t mean he spoke with the team captain.
Dave Z on 09 Jul 2009 at 11:31 pm #
Lisa, it gets tricky because Paul would almost certainly have meant the LXX, which included portions we would reject. Did he mean to include NT books which would not be written for years? The whole canon, which would not be finalized for centuries? And which canon? Our 66, or the somewhat different canons of the RC church, the Greek Orthodox church, the Ethiopian Orthodox or (I think) the Armenian church?
In an earlier post I pointed out that to the Fathers, their inerrant scriptures would often have included The Shepherd and Barnabas, and they’d have considered 2 Tim. 2:16 to include those books.
Dave Z on 09 Jul 2009 at 11:35 pm #
At some point I copied this from religion-online.org. To me, it explains very well the difference between inerrant and infallible. I’m liking infallible more and more. (BTW, this is excerpted from an article that ran 20-some pages – a long read, but good)
Jason C on 10 Jul 2009 at 4:39 am #
In regards to Bethyada, that should be “he” not “she”.
bethyada on 10 Jul 2009 at 5:29 am #
ScottL And you cannot defend inerrancy in regards to our English translations, at least if you want to stay within the bounds of the more stringent evangelical view as expressed in places like the Chicago Statement. So I don’t know how we can say that inerrancy applies to the copies and manuscripts ‘in general’. Inerrancy, at least by most evangelical views (as summarised in the Chicago Statement) is quite stringent and applies to the autographs. So to say the copies are ‘generally’ inerrant will lead down the slippery slope path that most evangelicals won’t like.
In the end, I believe God’s word is perfect, faithful, true and God-breathed. The Scripture testifies to this. But I want to understand what those terms mean from the author’s perspective who penned the words, and from God’s intent when He knew He would be communicating through humanity. I am afraid we are reading a modern understanding of inerrancy into Scripture.
I am not certain how much further we should go with this, I am an inerrantist and I agree reasonably with the Chicago statement, but you seem unhappy about what inerrantists mean by inerrancy.
The Chicago statement seems to be getting away from 20th century concepts of verbatim quotes and hyperliteralism.
My view of inerrancy.
God directed authors of Scripture in what to write about, this was not usually dictation, they had freedom in how they wrote, but God prevented them from including error. As God was involved in these people recording his message, it was the recording that was prevented from error, ie. inerrant. Thus the original manuscript.
I believe this because I think Scripture suggests this.
This prevention from error does not extend to the preservation of manuscripts. Thus some manuscripts include variants. Variants do not necessarily mean error, though they may include error. I don’t think God preserved every manuscript from error because the Scripture does not seem to teach this, and some Bible texts clearly have errors.
I don’t happen to think that the lack of originals is a problem for inerrancy because we are extremely confident of what those manuscripts said in most instances.
In as much as a manuscript is the same as the original, it is inerrant. In as much as a translation has the same message as the original, it is inerrant.
Thus the ESV is not fully inerrant. However it is in general inerrant being a faithful translation of an accurate reconstruction of the original text.
bethyada on 10 Jul 2009 at 5:40 am #
Thanks Jason, and I note your comment on the denials. I am not going to go into this particular example here, I need to spend more time on it, both my issue, and my thoughts.
Dave, On infallibility, I agree that theologically it talks to a slightly different idea than inerrancy.
I suggest that one can be an infallibist without being an inerrantist. An inerrantist is also an infallibist.
Example:
An inerrantist would claim that Jonah really was swallowed by a sea creature (though they may recognise 3 days and 3 nights as an idiom possibly referring to other than 72 hours and debate what the creature was), and that he went to Nineveh and preached repentance. And they note the teaching of God’s mercy and love that comes from the story.
An infallibist (who is not an inerrantist) may claim that the story of Jonah being in a sea creature never actually happened but still think there is a message in the book of Jonah about God’s mercy and love for the lost.
Lisa Robinson on 10 Jul 2009 at 7:10 am #
Dave, I am not sure Paul meant anything with respect to the NT at the time he wrote this letter. But there is a prophetic element to inspiration and does beg the question of how much the authors knew as they penned under the guidance of the Spirit. So even if he strictly was referring to OT, the statement must necessarily incorporate the letters in the canon written under apostolic authority. Furthermore, this was already a point Paul WAS aware of with respect to his writing, not that he would have envisioned a bound 66 book tome, but that his instruction was authoritative with respect to the revelation of Christ. Even Peter, refers to Paul’s writings as Scripture in 2 Peter 3:16.
rayner markley on 10 Jul 2009 at 8:08 am #
Lisa, 2 Timothy 3:16 refers to things that were scriptures when Timothy was a child. See verse 15. That would be the LXX. This does not claim that the Spirit also inspired writings of the apostles, but it doesn’t rule it out either.
Curt, yes the verbal (and written) message is adequate and sufficient, but that doesn’t mean that it is perfect and inerrant in all respects. Language is the best form of communication that we have.
But so far, no one else here has tried to explain why Jesus Himself didn’t write down the gospel.
ScottL on 10 Jul 2009 at 8:30 am #
bethyada -
I do clarify for you that I love the Scriptures. I read them, study them, teach them, preach them and defend them regularly. I love the Scriptures. So please know that I am not attacking you. I am more challenging what I would view as stringent views on things and the desire amongst most evangelicals to ‘rise up and defend’ more stringent view of these things.
You said:
My view of inerrancy.
God directed authors of Scripture in what to write about, this was not usually dictation, they had freedom in how they wrote, but God prevented them from including error. As God was involved in these people recording his message, it was the recording that was prevented from error, ie. inerrant. Thus the original manuscript.
I believe this because I think Scripture suggests this.
We agree that much of Scripture was not dictation, though I do not deny specific and direct revelations. But how do we really know that God prevented them from including error? You say Scripture suggests this, but I wonder if this is a little eisegesis into passages like 2 Tim 3:16 and 2 Pet 1:21. What we have is that the Scripture is God-breathed and the writers were carried along by the Spirit. But we know this was not always direct revelation. Paul would be sitting in house arrest writing to the Philippians with the wisdom and grace and revelation of an apostle, but I’m not sure he is receiving some ‘direct’ revelation where he is so specifically trying to write down an error free message. And I hear some of these Scripture recorders in the NT didn’t use very good Greek at times. If God would supersede them to make sure they got all the historical data correct, why not make sure they used some decent Greek. Still, at the same time, I very much recognise that every writer was ‘carried along by the Spirit’. For you, this might contradict. For me, I don’t see it having to be a contradiction.
Jesus (living Word) was perfect, yet he came as a human with little human ‘fallacies’ such as body odor and morning breath. Can the Scripture (written Word) not also be seen this way?
Still, if God was so particular about preserving the originals to be completely without error in any shape or form, then we really need to ask why He didn’t preserve those texts through the centuries, since they are the perfect documents, or why He didn’t ‘carry along’ the copyists over the centuries? For me, this shows that God is not anal (sorry for such a harsh word) in regards to inerrancy. In the end, the Scripture is God-breathed, faithful, reliable, authoritative and true – and I believe we can apply this across our manuscripts and translations even. At least the Spirit of God in me testifies to the God-breathedness, faithfulness, reliability and truth of the ESV copy I read every day.
Aaron Rathburn on 10 Jul 2009 at 10:25 am #
Dave Z:
This is the very best succinct articulation I have ever seen of the problems with inerrancy, and the merits of infallibility. Amazing.
Lisa wrote: “the statement must necessarily incorporate the letters in the canon written under apostolic authority. “
Why? Because “there is a prophetic element to inspiration,” as you say? Says who? Says the Protestant theologians? Does scripture teach this?
Lisa wrote: “this was already a point Paul WAS aware of with respect to his writing”
This is a problem, because Paul was also aware that some of his writing is merely his own advice, and not commandments from God; as he explicitly writes. So Paul was also aware of this with respect to his writing. So if we’re going to take Paul’s word on one thing, why not take his word on this point, as well?
Aaron Rathburn on 10 Jul 2009 at 10:29 am #
So what does 2Tim3:16 refer to? Two options:
First: The expanded Septuagint canon with Apocrypha; which, as I noted, is NOT merely a translation of the Hebrew, but rather a completely different textual tradition than the Masoretic Text. But that’s only if you assume the traditional evangelical position that Paul did in fact author 1/2 Tim and Titus.
Second: An alternative view that would make 2Tim3:16 also refer to the New Testament epistles and gospels would be the critical scholarship view, that maintains that 1/2 Tim and Titus were penned much later, under Paul’s name. A literalist would have a problem with this position, because the letter says that Paul wrote it. But in those times, it was not “plagiarism” to do a writing under a certain person’s “school of thought,” and ascribe their name to it — which would therefore not render the writings as “deceptive” in authorship. Plato, for example, writes all of his philosophy by inserting it into the mouth of Socrates.
Anyway, I’m partly playing Devil’s Advocate here, but it’s still worth pointing out. Why do we hold the doctrine of scripture that we hold? Perhaps we should critically examine why exactly we understand the things that we do.
Let’s heed the words of Jesus: “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me.”
It is Jesus Christ who is the “author and perfecter of our faith,” not the writings that testify to him.
EricW on 10 Jul 2009 at 10:42 am #
As Aaron Rathburn alludes to and/or states, issues/questions of inerrancy cannot sidestep or ignore issues or questions related to 1. the canon and 2. the Septuagint vs. Masoretic Text when it comes to the Old Testament. I.e., before you can claim that the Scripture is inerrant, you must explain what you mean by “Scripture” – and why. It’s not as simple or as neat and tidy as some believe or would like, as our Scriptures weren’t delivered to us with a table of contents and by angels on gold tablets. For many if not most books we don’t even know the authors with certainty.
rayner markley on 10 Jul 2009 at 10:44 am #
We need to understand the meaning of ‘God breathed.’ If it is simply ‘inspired by God’s spirit,’ that does not necessarily imply a direct immediate inspiration. For example, in 2 Peter 3:15-16 Paul is said to write ‘according to the wisdom given him.’ This could just as well be wisdom that was gained over time in his Christian experience and not necessarily a direct inspirational experience.
The case of Revelation is instructive. John was ‘in the Spirit’ when a great voice told him to write the things that he sees. So John, in an altered state (a trance), is given visions that he describes in his own words. The voice didn’t tell him to ‘write what I tell you to write.’ Whether John did his actual writing during the visions or afterwards doesn’t change the fact that Revelation is in John’s own words (except of course, where John records words that he hears or reads).
In I Corinthians 7, where Paul says four times that he is not writing a command from the Lord but his own advice, he also gives other instructions that he does identify as a command from the Lord. He does not, however, tell how that command came to him. It might have been in a special inspirational event, or it might just as well have been something he learned over a period of time.
There seems to be little in the NT to suggest that the writers were seized by the Spirit and compelled to write. Certainly the gospel of Luke is a compilation of reliable accounts as a credible historian would research. Luke relies on his own first-hand knowledge and on reliable sources. He does not acknowledge special guidance by the Spirit. We would like to see such acknowledgment for our understanding of inspiration.
ScottL on 10 Jul 2009 at 11:10 am #
EricW -
This probably sums up my biggest concern with inerrancy from an evangelical perspective, as with other issues: It’s not as simple or as neat and tidy as some believe or would like, as our Scriptures weren’t delivered to us with a table of contents and by angels on gold tablets.
When I read something like Grudem’s Systematic Theology and his words on inerrancy, it seems so very forced to make a nice and clean cut package. We, as evangelicals, don’t like things being a little ‘messy’ and ‘un-neat’.
DaveZ -
Your quote in comment 100 was very good.
Dave Z on 10 Jul 2009 at 11:57 am #
Lisa writes:
I don’t really know where most infallibists would stand, but I would not dismiss the literal truth of the Jonah passage. That is far beyond what I would see as the borders, if you will, of infallibility. I’m talking about stuff like CMP’s original post addresses.
Do you have examples of someone, an author perhaps or professor, who claims infallibility, yet would dismiss something like Jonah’s story?
Rayner, yes – Luke specifically claims investigation, not inspiration. But that’s not to say God did not inspire. God could even have influenced who Luke spoke to in his investigation.
I sometimes wonder if there are implications to the fact that the scriture writers did not use a special term for “scriptures,” instead using the common Greek term “graphe.” We have developed a special term, “scripture,” but what they used was a much more generic “writings.” We CHOOSE to translate that as “scripture.” Maybe for good reason, but it carries an implication of authority that would seem to be less specific in the originals.
I also agree that God is evidently not as fixated on inerrancy as we are, as he did not inspire inerrant copies, but allowed errors to creep in, even if we have (mostly) recovered the original text. And may I point out, even that is recent. What about inerrancy and even reliability in the centuries before modern textual criticism?
My point is that inerrancy is evidently non-essential. So it certainly seems inappropriate that modern evangelicals sometimes make it a litmus test for orthodoxy.
I’m beginning to see inerrancy as an archetype of eisegesis.
Joshua Allen on 10 Jul 2009 at 11:59 am #
Yes, that’s the right way to look at the infallibility/inerrancy of Paul.
When he wrote his letter declaring that “all scripture is God-breathed”, he certainly did not consider his letters to constitute “scripture”. And he went to great lengths in his letters to portray himself as a fallible human being.
To claim otherwise would be to claim that Paul somehow became infallible after his conversion, and that every line he wrote in his pastoral letters carried the same weight as one of the ten commandments. Paul would have been HORRIFIED at any such insinuation.
The apostles lived to proclaim the infallibility of the Old Testament, and to faithfully proclaim their witness to the life, death, and resurrection of Christ (which REALLY HAPPENED). They didn’t live to create or proclaim new scripture.
IMO, this is a primary reason that we can trust the New Testament. The level of intellectual honesty in narrating the fallibility of the protagonists is unmatched in any other religious work. Peter taking sides with the Judaizers, Paul quarreling with others over doctrine, and so on. The early fathers are not presented as some idolized and infallible forces of nature; they are presented as humans.
This doesn’t mean that we can dismiss what they said, of course. The apostles such as Peter and Paul are perhaps the greatest pastors the Church has ever had, and we need to accord them at least as much respect as we are commanded to show to our current pastors. We respect them because God ordained them as our Church fathers, though — not because they are infallible conduits of new scripture.
ScottL on 10 Jul 2009 at 12:02 pm #
DaveZ -
You said – I’m beginning to see inerrancy as an archetype of eisegesis.
Yes, that is what I wonder about. Are we reading this kind of theology into words like theopneustos? It seems a very forced eisegesis. We are quite good at that.
Dave Z on 10 Jul 2009 at 12:03 pm #
Oops, that was not a quote from Lisa – sorry
Dave Z on 10 Jul 2009 at 12:15 pm #
Gotta agree/disagree with Josua. I agree that Paul, as a person, was never infallible, before or after conversion. But I disagree with the conclusional leap – I do think God spoke infallibly through him as Paul wrote scripture. I do not believe the Bible, ether OT or NT is a simply human book. God reveals and guides, and we can debate interpretation, but “carried along in the Holy Spirit” is a pretty strong image, emphasis on “carried.”
Also Paul was very clear about his authority as an apostle, and he spoke and wrote authoritatively. That said, there were certainly some who did not hold him or his writings in very high esteem, as we see in 2 Cor. Yet, I think it equally certain that some did.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 10 Jul 2009 at 12:17 pm #
Article XI.
WE AFFIRM that Scripture, having been given by divine inspiration, is infallible, so that, far from misleading us, it is true and reliable in all the matters it addresses.
WE DENY that it is possible for the Bible to be at the same time infallible and errant in its assertions. Infallibility and inerrancy may be distinguished, but not separated.
Article XVI.
WE AFFIRM that the doctrine of inerrancy has been integral to the Church’s faith throughout its history.
WE DENY that inerrancy is a doctrine invented by scholastic Protestantism, or is a reactionary position postulated in response to negative higher criticism.
Article XIX.
WE AFFIRM that a confession of the full authority, infallibility, and inerrancy of Scripture is vital to a sound understanding of the whole of the Christian faith. We further affirm that such confession should lead to increasing conformity to the image of Christ.
WE DENY that such confession is necessary for salvation. However, we further deny that inerrancy can be rejected without grave consequences, both to the individual and to the Church.
Dave Z on 10 Jul 2009 at 12:20 pm #
Questions re-asked, hoping for response:
I want to know, from a verbal plenary inerrantist, maybe Curt or Lisa or whoever, if those passages communicate God’s opinion or Paul’s.
Aaron Rathburn on 10 Jul 2009 at 12:27 pm #
Dave Z wrote: “Do you have examples of someone, an author perhaps or professor, who claims infallibility, yet would dismiss something like Jonah’s story?”
If Jesus taught the people using parables, I would not be opposed to the book of Jonah also teaching us by way of a parable. But no, “infallibility” does not necessitate “non-historical-reality.”
But for example, I am less inclined to think of Genesis 1-11 as the literary genre of “historical documentation,” so much as perhaps “parable to communicate truth.” The literature is radically different from Genesis 12-50, and further.
Dave Z wrote: “So it certainly seems inappropriate that modern evangelicals sometimes make it a litmus test for orthodoxy.”
Exactly. I believe in a literal hell, a literal Satan, eternal punishment (not annihilationism), non-universalism, the resurrection, etc etc., and I get conservatives that call me liberal (!) because I don’t believe in inerrancy. It’s really more “orthodox” not to!
“I’m beginning to see inerrancy as an archetype of eisegesis.”
Bingo.
Truth Unites and Divides:
.
The Catholics got a lot of things wrong in their councils for 1,000 years. Don’t think that evangelicals can’t get anything wrong in their councils, either
Truth Unites... and Divides on 10 Jul 2009 at 12:47 pm #
Aaron Rathburn: “The Catholics got a lot of things wrong in their councils for 1,000 years. Don’t think that evangelicals can’t get anything wrong in their councils, either.”
Upholding inerrancy isn’t wrong.
For those inclined or interested in a more recent discussion of inerrancy where the debate gets a bit more technical than here, please go here and look at the last 5 or 6 threads or so, starting at May 19, 2009. You’ll also see Aaron Rathburn participating in them.
Dave Z on 10 Jul 2009 at 1:02 pm #
I understand that it does have some authority, but we cannot act as if the Chicago statement itself is inerrant.
Dave Z on 10 Jul 2009 at 1:12 pm #
TUaD, thanks for the link. Looks quite interesting at a quick glance. No time now, but I do look forward to digging deeper.
Joshua Allen on 10 Jul 2009 at 2:30 pm #
Saying that God spoke infallibly through Paul is not the same as stating that all of Paul’s writings were infallibly the decrees of God. Paul, being sensitive to such idolatrous conclusions, was often careful to couch his words with qualifiers like “I wish”.
Paul’s fallibility was, in fact, one of the ways that God spoke infallibly to us. People who fail to realize this unique aspect of Hebrew scriptural tradition are at a disadvantage. And this theme repeats far back into OT. What was the story of Moses’s inability to communicate, and reliance on Aaron, if not a commentary on inerrancy and infallibility?
Curt Parton on 10 Jul 2009 at 5:04 pm #
Rayner wrote:
Curt, yes the verbal (and written) message is adequate and sufficient, but that doesn’t mean that it is perfect and inerrant in all respects.
Rayner, I wasn’t using the sufficiency of verbal communication as a point of defense for inerrancy. I was only responding to your comments that seemed (to me) to call into question its sufficiency.
But so far, no one else here has tried to explain why Jesus Himself didn’t write down the gospel.
I’m at a loss here. How exactly does that affect the inerrancy of Scripture?
Dave Z,
Your quote in post 100 is interesting, but obviously written from the viewpoint of someone who strongly prefers infallibility (or at least their understanding of it) to inerrancy. And I don’t think all of the conclusions are necessarily justified.
You asked:
I want to know, from a verbal plenary inerrantist, maybe Curt or Lisa or whoever, if those passages communicate God’s opinion or Paul’s.
I addressed this earlier in post 86. (Not too well apparently
) 3 quick recaps in response:
1. I see this as exegetical question. As an inerrantist, I have no problem with Paul expressing his opinion on some issue. And inerrancy no more demands that this also be God’s opinion than it does any other statement recorded in Scripture. The exegetical issue that must be resolved is: Was Paul stating a personal opinion here or was he giving instruction? [We can get into the interpretation of this specific passage if you'd like, but I think it's beside the point.]
2. Even if Paul was directly giving a specific instruction, we still have to apply the passage to us today. Even if Paul infallibly—under inspiration of the Holy Spirit—told the believers to greet one another with a holy kiss, this doesn’t mean we apply that to us today in a woodenly literal manner. [How much of a possible instruction to widows was specific to their unique historical context? I'm not arguing anything here, but it's something that would need to be considered in interpreting the passage.]
3. This is an issue to be resolved for anyone who believes in the inspiration of Scripture. Is the passage you asked about part of inspired Scripture or merely the writings of a first century teacher (even if profoundly respected)? Does the Bible include both inspired passages and uninspired passages? And, if so, how do we sort them out? Do we become the judge of what is, and what is not, inspired by God? I don’t think your question applies only to inerrantists.
Curt Parton on 10 Jul 2009 at 5:35 pm #
Dave Z wrote:
I sometimes wonder if there are implications to the fact that the scriture writers did not use a special term for “scriptures,” instead using the common Greek term “graphe.” We have developed a special term, “scripture,” but what they used was a much more generic “writings.” We CHOOSE to translate that as “scripture.” Maybe for good reason, but it carries an implication of authority that would seem to be less specific in the originals.
I’m not sure of the point here. Do we take 2 Timothy 3:16 as meaning that all writings are inspired by God? Is that the limit of the semantic range of graphe? And if a specific usage is intended, do you contend that it didn’t include an implied authority?
I think a more germane issue to discuss is ScottL’s question of what exactly does theopneustos mean? Maybe having a more clear understanding of the nature and extent of the inspiration of Scripture (or sacred writings [2 Timothy 3:15]) will add light to our discussion of the nature and extent of the infallibility of Scripture.
I’m beginning to see inerrancy as an archetype of eisegesis.
That’s quite a statement! So biblical interpretation was free of eisegesis before the inerrantists arrived on the scene? I think there’s plenty of room for humility in this area from all theological viewpoints.
Curt Parton on 10 Jul 2009 at 5:49 pm #
One more question for Dave Z (Sorry, but I haven’t been able to post all day!):
My point is that inerrancy is evidently non-essential. So it certainly seems inappropriate that modern evangelicals sometimes make it a litmus test for orthodoxy.
Do you also consider the infallibility of Scripture to be evidently non-essential? And would you consider it inappropriate to make the infallibility of Scripture some form of litmus test?
Lisa Robinson on 10 Jul 2009 at 7:06 pm #
Aaron, do you suppose that as Samuel recorded God’s covenant promise as he delivered to David in 2 Samuel 7:12-17 that they had Jesus in mind as Luke wrote in Luke 1:31-33? The very process of inspiration means there is a prophetic element as God superintended the process for what he wants known. The fullness of the propheticity may not have been known to the author or at least in its fullness at the time of the recording, but that does not negate a prophetic element. I am not imposing anything on Scripture that it does not already do.
Lisa Robinson on 10 Jul 2009 at 7:28 pm #
Dave, the short answer regarding 1 Corinthians 7 is that we have to take at face value Paul’s statement of his words being a command rather than a requirement. But no, I don’t think it falls outside of the purview of inspiration. There is no reason to believe that inspiration stops because Paul is providing a recommendation particularly as it is in the context of his instruction under the auspices of his apostolic authority. To say that since it is a recommendation, it is therefore not inspired would ascribe to a dictationist view of inspiration.
Also a side note: as we discussed on my last post, I don’t think the recommendation is that single people are better off but that devotion to the Lord is of chief importance so folks should make sure they are in the best scenario to secure that devotion. For the single person, their attention is undivided unless of course, they are distracted with fleshly desires. If that’s the case they should marry.
bethyada on 10 Jul 2009 at 7:45 pm #
ScottL And I hear some of these Scripture recorders in the NT didn’t use very good Greek at times. If God would supersede them to make sure they got all the historical data correct, why not make sure they used some decent Greek.
Your argument here and elsewhere is based on your joining, and at times, conflating concepts.
It seems you are saying that if God was going to ensure inerrancy of the originals then he would also ensure inerrancy of copies in every case. But this does not follow. And there are logical reasons why God may not ensure inerrant preservation.
Similarly with your comment above, if God was going to ensure inerrancy of the autographs then he would ensure excellent grammar. This does not follow either. If God is using men to give his message but not via dictation, then the message will come from their mouths and how they speak.
Would you dismiss a court witness because he spoke in broken English? Would suboptimal grammar mean that what he said was untrue?
It is important to note that impreciseness, ambiguity, and incompleteness are not errors. Error is stating something that is counterfactual. For example your comment here:
Jesus (living Word) was perfect, yet he came as a human with little human ‘fallacies’ such as body odor and morning breath. Can the Scripture (written Word) not also be seen this way?
These aren’t fallacies. Putting aside the cultural argument that body odor is not necessarily offensive, even if Jesus cut himself and had scars from childhood, how it then in anyway related to error?
Inerrant means without error. It does not mean some artificial idea about perfection.
bethyada on 10 Jul 2009 at 7:47 pm #
I thought Daniel Wallace did his PhD on 2 Timothy 3:16 and the meaning of “inspired”? I couldn’t find anything on bible.org. Is this correct?
Lisa Robinson on 10 Jul 2009 at 7:57 pm #
Bethyada, it was a journal article for ETS (1986) entitled The Relation of Theopneustos to Graphe in 2 Timothy 3:16. Looks like I’m going to the library tomorrow. Thanks
I looked up his dissertation, which is entitled The Article with Multiple Substantives Connected by kai in the New Testament.
bethyada on 10 Jul 2009 at 8:05 pm #
DaveZ Do you have examples of someone, an author perhaps or professor, who claims infallibility, yet would dismiss something like Jonah’s story?
My pastor is an infallibist but not an inerrantist. I am not certain whether he would believe in the literalness of Jonah. He may do now, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t previously. He is aware that some don’t think it is literal and he doesn’t think it is an issue.
God is evidently not as fixated on inerrancy as we are, as he did not inspire inerrant copies, but allowed errors to creep in, even if we have (mostly) recovered the original text. And may I point out, even that is recent. What about inerrancy and even reliability in the centuries before modern textual criticism?
The theology of inerrancy is not dependant on preservation. Even now we don’t have inerrant texts. We may have recovered the NT but the OT is less exact. Further, translation introduces some errors. But the text we have now, and the texts we have had since they were written and close to the originals. We have always had accurate enough versions such that we can rely on them.
And the concept of inerrancy is not new. As I linked to above, a good argument can be made for Jesus believing in inerrancy.
bethyada on 10 Jul 2009 at 8:12 pm #
That was quick Lisa. It would be useful for someone to summarise what Daniel Wallace claims the Greek says about the meaning given all this debate here. Of course he could. But I don’t personally wish to request of him the time involved.
Perhaps if there is a summary in the paper that could be reproduced verbatim, a new post would be useful.
Lisa Robinson on 10 Jul 2009 at 8:21 pm #
Just a few keystrokes on the DTS library site did the trick
Besides what else does a nerdy seminary student have to do on a Friday evening.
I love a good challenge, btw, especially when it comes to defending the honor of God’s word. But c’mon, we are talking about Dan Wallace. I’m not sure my little brain is up to the task but we shall see.
Aaron Rathburn on 10 Jul 2009 at 8:36 pm #
Lisa wrote: “do you suppose that as Samuel recorded God’s covenant promise as he delivered to David in 2 Samuel 7:12-17 that they had Jesus in mind as Luke wrote in Luke 1:31-33? The very process of inspiration means there is a prophetic element as God superintended the process for what he wants known.”
Here’s the problem: Luke 1 is NOT the fulfillment of 2Sam7. Jesus Christ is.
That has nothing to do with the inspiration of the New Testament, it only testifies prophetically to Jesus. And then Luke 1 also testifies to Jesus.
(As a side note, Samual actually dies in 1Sam25, so he didn’t write it. But I knew what you meant.)
“I love a good challenge, btw, especially when it comes to defending the honor of God’s word.”
What do you think I’m doing? Defending God’s word
. I’m doing the same thing that you would do to a King-James-Onlyist: defending God’s truth from incorrect interpretations of it
.
ScottL on 11 Jul 2009 at 4:15 am #
bethyada -
You said:
It seems you are saying that if God was going to ensure inerrancy of the originals then he would also ensure inerrancy of copies in every case. But this does not follow. And there are logical reasons why God may not ensure inerrant preservation.
But do you see the explanatory hoops we have to jump through to explain to one another and the world that our God had the originals come out perfectly pristine and without error, but He couldn’t preserve such a perfection with the copies. This perhaps makes God look silly. Of course, nowhere do we find God saying He had to preserve perfection with the scribes, but I am not sure we can find somewhere that God says He has to preserve perfection in the original recording of Scripture.
He used human beings in both the original recording and in scribal copying. But somehow the 40 men or so that originally wrote these things got the ‘free pass’ of being covered by God’s inerrancy insurance policy. Yet the hundreds of scribes copying over the manuscripts had to deal with their humanity and copy errors.
I tend to sense that describing the Scriptures as God-breathed and infallible will be faithful to Him and honest with the world, rather than trying to label it as inerrant and, thus, have to do the dance of explaining all the nuances.
Similarly with your comment above, if God was going to ensure inerrancy of the autographs then he would ensure excellent grammar. This does not follow either. If God is using men to give his message but not via dictation, then the message will come from their mouths and how they speak.
Would you dismiss a court witness because he spoke in broken English? Would suboptimal grammar mean that what he said was untrue?
But the inerrantist says God made sure the recorders of Scripture got it right in every single nuance with regards to history, science, archeology, etc. That’s a lot of superintending we need on God’s part. But God couldn’t supersede the grammatical inconsistencies of some of these writers?
Now, I know this proves nothing. All I am pointing out is that this seems to add to the already exhausting list of trying to explain inerrancy. Infallibility seems to not need such explanations. We can continue to conclude His word is God-breathed, faithful, reliable and trustworthy and not have to explain the list of intricacies with inerrancy.
rayner markley on 11 Jul 2009 at 6:44 am #
Curt, thanks for clarifying for me what you meant about adequate and sufficient.
Regarding Jesus writing scripture, I’m speculating that He may have foreseen the problems we’re having with inerrancy when dealing with a human language—that it is in fact an impossible quest. Better to be picking over the work of human authors than that of the Son of God.
EricW on 11 Jul 2009 at 7:10 am #
Did the people who decided to include a book in the canon – e.g., Revelation, Hebrews – do so because, among other things, it was determined to be inerrant and God-breathed? If inerrancy and God-breathedness were not some of the criteria used to include a book, did the book become considered to be inerrant and God-breathed once it was included in the canon as Scripture?
Was a book that was Scripture to some churches/groups – e.g., 1 Clement, some of the Apocrypha – included because, along with other things, it was believed or said to be inerrant and God-breathed? If so, did it lose its assumption and/or actual fact of inerrancy and God-breathedness when other groups later on decided it was not to be part of the Church’s Scripture?
ScottL on 11 Jul 2009 at 7:16 am #
Eric -
Very good observations and questions in comment 138 above. Of course, we are not looking to be cynical here. But these are real observations and questions to consider. This is why I believe inerrancy is our attempt to make things nice and neatly packaged. But it isn’t so nice and neat. The Scripture testifies to Christ, but thankfully our devotion is ultimately to Christ. As Aaron quoted John 5:39 earlier – You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me.
Dave Z on 11 Jul 2009 at 12:12 pm #
I’m loving this thread, but I may not be able to post much in the next week or two. I’m supposed to be going on vacation, but it may turn into a staycation with day trips, so we’ll see.
Curt, let me say that you have raised some thought provoking points. I’ll address a couple here.
Again, inerrancy is not my primary issue. I’m trying to fine-tune my understanding of the nature and extent of inspiration (which impacts inerrancy), so I’m looking forward to how this thread addresses that. It touches on the debate over ipsissima vox and ipsissima verba.
I think most evangelicals would lean towards vox, but I’m not sure. The blog that TUaD linked to earlier seems to take the verba approach.
I guess what I’m wondering is something like this – “Did God place into the mind of the writer what he wanted written?” (Of course, then we can debate whether it was word-for-word, as verbal plenary would seem to require, or conceptual, expressed by the writer in his own words) IOW, did God prompt Paul to give his opinion? “Paul, write this down.” Does it then have divine authority? What is the impact on our understanding and interpretation of Scripture if we believe some portions are merely the author’s opinon? OTOH, If they have divine authority, how does that play out?
Kind of an extreme example, but if Paul expresses his opinion in 1 Cor 7, then why not 2 Tim. 3:16? Is the opinion thing a slippery slope?
My point with graphe is that is is less tightly focused than our term scripture. If I say “Scripture” in this discussion, I’m sure everyone thinks of a 66 book canon. But if I say writings, I may be including the Fathers or the apocrypha. “Scripture” has a specificity that “writings” does not have. When Paul says “writings” we don’t really know to what extent that applies – what writings did he have in mind? We seem to take it prophetically to mean our 66 book canon. But was the development of the canon inspired? How about the somewhat different canon of other Christian traditions? It seems extremely presumptous to take a hard line on that, but it goes to the heart of what is inspired and what is inerrant or infallible. We apply 2 Tim. 3:16 to OUR understanding of canon, which, again sounds like eisegesis.
My use of archetype was in the sense of “good example” of, or “model” of, eisegesis rather than “origin.” Sometimes the argument seems to start from a belief in inerrancy, then involves a hunt for proof texts and other support.
Hopefully I can keep an eye on this thread. I’m finding it helpful. Curt, I especially appreciate your involvement.
Joshua Allen on 11 Jul 2009 at 2:42 pm #
@Dave Z: Do you have a blog? I would personally be interested in reading a fully-fleshed out essay on the topic from you. I really think the topic deserves more than the simplistic “either/or” litmus tests that often are proposed.
Regarding “ipsissima vox”, I have always thought it is important that much of scripture is recorded as history (i.e. the narrative had to be put in words, since it was experiential rather than linguistic at start). The Haggadah is the supreme example, and the commandment to “tell your sons”. Each family undoubtedly had a slightly different way of telling the story, but the fact that the story really happened was far more important than linguistic nuance. In fact, the alarmingly deconstructionist Seders that we often see today are proof that having a canonical scriptural text is no guarantee of fidelity — one is certain that none of the Hebrews in the first generation or two after the Exodus would have dared such revisionist tellings, even though they had no canonical text.
Likewise, it seems important that Joseph said “interpretation of dreams belongs to God”.
bethyada on 11 Jul 2009 at 4:29 pm #
ScottL But do you see the explanatory hoops we have to jump through to explain to one another and the world that our God had the originals come out perfectly pristine and without error, but He couldn’t preserve such a perfection with the copies. This perhaps makes God look silly. Of course, nowhere do we find God saying He had to preserve perfection with the scribes, but I am not sure we can find somewhere that God says He has to preserve perfection in the original recording of Scripture.
Do you see the explanatory hoops we have to jump through to explain to one another and the world that God created the world perfect but that he did not prevent man from falling and now the world is broken. This perhaps makes God look silly.
It matters little whether the world mocks the truth, I am not trying to defend what I think makes God look the best to the world, that hate him after all; I am trying to defend what I think is true and be faithful to my God.
Further you are conflating to meanings of perfection. Inerrant is “perfect” in that it is without error, but it doesn’t mean “perfection” in the “ideal” or “excellent” sense. Now the Bible may also be “ideal” or “excellent,” but these are not synonyms for inerrant.
He used human beings in both the original recording and in scribal copying. But somehow the 40 men or so that originally wrote these things got the ‘free pass’ of being covered by God’s inerrancy insurance policy. Yet the hundreds of scribes copying over the manuscripts had to deal with their humanity and copy errors.
And perhaps God was involved in some preservation, but he wasn’t in all situations. If a scribe prayed before copying then God may have been more active in preservation, than someone who was trying to conform the Bible to his theology and didn’t mind tampering with Scripture to do. The authors of the Scriptures were God’s servants; many copyists were, but not all.
God can preserve, the question is not whether he can, it is whether he did.
I tend to sense that describing the Scriptures as God-breathed and infallible will be faithful to Him and honest with the world, rather than trying to label it as inerrant and, thus, have to do the dance of explaining all the nuances.
And yet inerrancy gives us reason to believe infallibility.
bethyada on 11 Jul 2009 at 5:04 pm #
But the inerrantist says God made sure the recorders of Scripture got it right in every single nuance with regards to history, science, archeology, etc. That’s a lot of superintending we need on God’s part. But God couldn’t supersede the grammatical inconsistencies of some of these writers?
Firstly it is not that hard when you are an eyewitness. And historical science and archaeology are modern fields which attempt to recreate the past, but they were living in it. They didn’t need to know pottery styles of the ages.
More importantly, history is an issue of fact, grammar isn’t factual like this. Word meanings, style and grammar changes. And if fact such variation in style proves authenticity. False historical data removes authenticity.
All I am pointing out is that this seems to add to the already exhausting list of trying to explain inerrancy. Infallibility seems to not need such explanations. We can continue to conclude His word is God-breathed, faithful, reliable and trustworthy and not have to explain the list of intricacies with inerrancy.
So do we stop defending the trinity and propose a single God? That would be a simpler concept to defend. Defend what you think is true, not what is simpler. And above you even admit your version is “not neat and nice.”
But inerrancy is really not too difficult a concept. It is certainly simpler than the incarnation, penal substitution, or the trinity.
It says the Bible is without error of fact.
Then an inerrancy sceptic says, “Well I explain this passage from the Watchtower translation”
“I mean the Bible in the original languages, clearly the translation here is questionable”
“Well what about this passage?”
“It is not in the original”
“Well the Bible says, ‘There is no God’ ”
“It is reporting the comment of a fool, not making a statement of truth. The Bible is not claiming the comments of all people it reports are truthful”
“Well Jesus says he is a door”
“That is a metaphor”
“So you are saying that inerrancy applies to the original languages, the original manuscripts, with application to context, and not including metaphors?”
“Yes”
“Seems like a lot of qualifications to me”
***
There is no end of exceptions that an inerrancy sceptic can raise. In fact for any topic there can always be a thousand qualifications.
But for the inerrantist, these aren’t qualifications that are added to inerrancy. They are implicit already in their mind.
EricW on 11 Jul 2009 at 5:21 pm #
So, what about the example I gave in post 17:
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/07/a-possible-error-in-the-bible/comment-page-3/#comment-28797
Paul writes “just as it is written,” but when you examine what he then writes, you see it’s an amalgamation of Isaiah 28:16 and Isaiah 8:14 and does not conform perfectly either to the Hebrew text or the Greek text of those verses in wording or morphology.
I.e., it’s not “just as it is written.”
In fact, there is no place in the Old Testament where what Paul writes is written that way. This is not like Romans 3:10-18 where he strings together a series of verses one after the other. In Romans 9:33 he sandwiches in part of Isaiah 8:14 between the beginning and ending words of Isaiah 28:16 to change the meaning of Isaiah 28:16.
Is Paul’s statement “just as it is written” an error and/or is his citation/use of those verses in error or erroneous or improper or incorrect?
Curt Parton on 11 Jul 2009 at 5:59 pm #
Dave Z,
Thanks for a thoughtful response. I think most of us are just trying to work out what really is the nature and extent of the infallibility of Scripture. And the challenges from different perspectives help us think through these issues. I don’t have time right now for much of a response myself, but I do have one thought. You wrote:
Of course, then we can debate whether it was word-for-word, as verbal plenary would seem to require, or conceptual, expressed by the writer in his own words
I just want to point out again that I have no problem with the writer expressing in his own words the concepts that God has given him. I think the only place in Scripture we have dictation would be “Thus saith the Lord” type prophecy. I would just clarify that the process of divine inspiration would keep the writer’s expression of God’s concept free from error—but still in their words utilizing their styles and expressions. (Consider it a divine Editor maybe.)
EricW,
If inerrancy and God-breathedness were not some of the criteria used to include a book, did the book become considered to be inerrant and God-breathed once it was included in the canon as Scripture?
I agree that a closer look at the criteria used to consider a writing canonical could be very helpful in this discussion. Obviously we wouldn’t be looking for the same terms we’re currently using, but seeking out the understanding that the early church had and how that best corresponds to our different understandings today.
ScottL,
Back in my days as a skeptic, I would have happily questioned why you could trust that Scripture is “God-breathed, faithful, reliable and trustworthy” if you can’t be completely sure of the manuscript copies. Sorry, but I think you’re in the same boat with the rest of us!
Curt Parton on 11 Jul 2009 at 6:08 pm #
I, too, would like to read more about Dan Wallace’s take on this. I don’t have the time right now to dig it out—but Lisa’s a seminary student, so she should have plenty of time for that sort of thing, right?
BTW, Dave Z, I’d like to read more about Roger Olson’s understanding of “dynamic inspiration.” Could you point me to a source for that?
Joshua Allen on 11 Jul 2009 at 6:55 pm #
@Curt – I am thinking the citation is from Olson’s “Westminster Handbook to Evangelical Theology”, and is not originated by Olson, but is just documented by him.
Olson cites I. Howard Marshall and Clark Pinnock as being major proponents of the dynamic view, which is described as:
“On the one hand, God is the ultimate author of scripture, such that the product ultimately comes from him. On the other hand, it comes from him in various ways, including the human collection and editing of sources.”
The Pinnock book he cites is “The Scripture Principle”, and about it he says “Scripture is the product of both divine initiative and guidance through the people of God leading to the production of a normative text…”
I’m quite a novice and probably far too credulous on things, but my first reaction is that it sounds like common sense. BTW, I am halfway through Olson’s “Arminian Theology” right now and finding it to be excellent.
Lisa Robinson on 11 Jul 2009 at 7:10 pm #
Dave wrote:
“I guess what I’m wondering is something like this – “Did God place into the mind of the writer what he wanted written?” (Of course, then we can debate whether it was word-for-word, as verbal plenary would seem to require, or conceptual, expressed by the writer in his own words) IOW, did God prompt Paul to give his opinion? “Paul, write this down.” Does it then have divine authority? What is the impact on our understanding and interpretation of Scripture if we believe some portions are merely the author’s opinon? OTOH, If they have divine authority, how does that play out?”
First, my understanding of verbal plenary is not so much word for word, but an expression of propositional thought utilizing human language. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 2:13, the Spirit is conveying spiritual thoughts for spiritual words. So utilizing the author’s own orchestration of words, as they are moved along by the Spirit as described in 2 Peter 1:20-21, the expression of propositional truth that is 100% conveyed by the Spirit is produced in such a way to reflect the author’s perspective. This ensures the propositional truth is error free but still gives merit to human authorship. The opinion, I believe, is shaped within the context of such inspiration by Paul, as an authorized agent to transmit God’s breathed out word, and therefore is no less authoritative, even though it is not a requirement. Or at least that is my take, anyway.
Then Dave wrote:
“My point with graphe is that is is less tightly focused than our term scripture. If I say “Scripture” in this discussion, I’m sure everyone thinks of a 66 book canon. But if I say writings, I may be including the Fathers or the apocrypha. “Scripture” has a specificity that “writings” does not have. When Paul says “writings” we don’t really know to what extent that applies – what writings did he have in mind? We seem to take it prophetically to mean our 66 book canon. But was the development of the canon inspired? How about the somewhat different canon of other Christian traditions? It seems extremely presumptous to take a hard line on that, but it goes to the heart of what is inspired and what is inerrant or infallible. We apply 2 Tim. 3:16 to OUR understanding of canon, which, again sounds like eisegesis.”
I have not gotten my hand’s on Dan Wallace’s article but Geisler and Nix support the fact that graphe in 2 Timothy 3:16 must be Scripture and not just writings. They write
“It is clear from the usage of this term that the locus of inspiration is in the written record rather than in the ideas or conepts or even oral expressions of the writer. Although the word graphe itself can have a more general usage than a canonical writing, nevertheless, the context clearly indicates that the entire Old Testament is in view…the term theopneustos is an adjective that belongs to a special class called “verbal adjectives”… to be con’t
Lisa Robinson on 11 Jul 2009 at 7:26 pm #
Quote continued
“…It is grammatically possible to take theopneustos as descriptive of graphe…but there are reasons to reject this possibility in favor of the much better substantiated “All Scripture is inspired by God” [Geisler and Nix, A General Introduction to the Bible, p 35]
By this assertion, I take it to mean that graphe must have in fact referred to as the inspired authoritative writings from God Himself through the auspices of his authorized agents. In correction of what I said earlier, Paul was referring to the OT but does not negate applicability to Scripture in development at the time of the letter’s authorship.
And I am curious as to your question “But was the development of the canon inspired?”, in what sense do you mean? My understanding is that the canon was not developed but recognized as those writings that were considered legitimatly inspired by God. If by the process you mean the development of actual divine writings, I would say that inspiration also extends to the historical development of divine authorship through orchestration of events. Afterall, if God wanted to insure accurately conveying his revelation, would he not also superintend the entire process?
Lisa Robinson on 11 Jul 2009 at 7:32 pm #
And Curt, sure I have time between the one summer class I’m taking, single parenting, working and assisting with writing small group curriculum…piece of cake
Seriously, didn’t make it to the library as I’d hoped. But my goal is to get my hands on that article on Monday…hopefully.
Also to all, I apologize for the lack of formatting quotes. I need to figure out how the html codes work so I can properly distinguish quotes from my own writing. Any suggestions for html for dummies? Thank
EricW on 11 Jul 2009 at 8:16 pm #
Lisa:
Refer to this post of mine here (#36):
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/07/a-possible-error-in-the-bible/comment-page-3/#comment-28826
You want to use the blockquote command.
Lisa Robinson on 11 Jul 2009 at 8:23 pm #
Sweet! Thanks.
Dave Z on 12 Jul 2009 at 1:02 am #
Curt, without going to look, I think I found the Olson description in “The Mosaic of Christian Belief.”
As I understand verbal plenary, it means God guided the writer to use one specific word at any specific point. In other words, God chose each word of scripture – it is inspired down to the very words. That’s how I read both Grudem and Erickson, and, (I think) Geisler/Nix. To me, that’s dictation. Your description sounds like it allows more human input and is in the neighborhood of where I am right now. But that is not, as I understand it, the typical evangelical view. Plenary, of course means the whole Bible, every word, is inspired.
Lisa, what I mean by development of the the canon is the process of recognizing which books belong and which don’t. Since that happened over a period of time, I call it development. Somewhere on P&P is a post entitled “An Errant Canon of Inerrant Books” or something like that. Check the links on the right maybe.
ScottL on 12 Jul 2009 at 1:58 pm #
bethyada -
Do you see the explanatory hoops we have to jump through to explain to one another and the world that God created the world perfect but that he did not prevent man from falling and now the world is broken. This perhaps makes God look silly.
It matters little whether the world mocks the truth, I am not trying to defend what I think makes God look the best to the world, that hate him after all; I am trying to defend what I think is true and be faithful to my God.
This is true and thanks for reminding me. We don’t come to our beliefs based upon what is easy to explain. We base it upon the truth. But I am still struggling to see inerrancy as the word that faithfully describes the purpose and intent of God in the Scripture. To many ‘cracks’ exist in this pristine package.
Curt Parton on 12 Jul 2009 at 5:33 pm #
Lisa wrote:
And Curt, sure I have time between the one summer class I’m taking, single parenting, working and assisting with writing small group curriculum…piece of cake
Oh, now I feel guilty!
Seriously, didn’t make it to the library as I’d hoped. But my goal is to get my hands on that article on Monday…hopefully.
Thanks, Lisa!
Thanks, Dave, for the Olson reference. And to Joshua for another possible source.
Dave, you wrote:
As I understand verbal plenary, it means God guided the writer to use one specific word at any specific point. In other words, God chose each word of scripture – it is inspired down to the very words. That’s how I read both Grudem and Erickson, and, (I think) Geisler/Nix.
From the quote in Lisa’s post, I can see how one might be confused by the distinction between dictation and verbal, plenary inspiration. (This thread is actually the first I’ve heard “verbal, plenary inspiration” referenced in years!) I dug out my ancient copy of “General Introduction.” I think some of what they have to say is actually quite helpful for our discussion. From p. 34 of the 1981 ed., under the heading “How Does Inspiration Operate?”:
One final question on the nature of inspiration deals with the means or process. What means did God’s causality employ to produce scriptural authority without interfering with the personality, freedom and individuality of the prophetic agents? Or how did God produce an infallible book through fallible men? A frank and forthright answer, and yet often very reluctantly given by biblical scholars, is “We don’t know.” It must be asserted that God inspired the Scriptures even though it cannot be ascertained exactly how He did it.
They go on to describe this as a mystery. That resonates with me because it reminds me of the mystery of the incarnation. Even with all the exhaustive study, from the early church until today, the incarnation is still a mystery to a great extent. I see the inspiration of Scripture in a similar way.
A critique, though, is that they too aggressively attack what they call the “dynamic view” in such a way that they could make themselves appear to be leaning toward dictation again. Judging from their rejection of the dictation view, this is not the case. But they could have made that more clear. They do ask a good question that relates to our discussion (p. 45):
How can the final product be infallible or authoritative if there was no divine control over the actual composition?
Curt Parton on 12 Jul 2009 at 5:41 pm #
I should also quote Geisler and Nix on their view of verbal plenary inspiration (p. 46):
[God] guided in the very choice of words used within the personality and the cultural complex of the writers so that, in some inscrutable manner, the Bible is the word of God while being the words of men.
EricW on 12 Jul 2009 at 5:59 pm #
so that, in some inscrutable manner
Like Fu Manchu?
Curt Parton on 12 Jul 2009 at 6:10 pm #
Like Fu Manchu?
LOL
Curt Parton on 12 Jul 2009 at 6:22 pm #
Claim by Grudem regarding graphe, Systematic Theology, p. 76 (I haven’t verified this, just passing it on):
[W]e must realize that the Greek word graphe (“scripture”) was a technical term for the New Testament writers and had a very specialized meaning. Even though it was used fifty-one times in the New Testament, every one of those instances uses it to refer to Old Testament writings, not to any other words or writings outside the canon of Scripture. Thus, everything that belonged in the category “scripture” had the character of being “God-breathed”: its words were God’s very words.
He goes on to expand this to New Testament writings based on 2 Peter 3:16 and 1 Timothy 5:18.
Curt Parton on 12 Jul 2009 at 6:33 pm #
A (hopefully) clarifying point on the development of the canon: “Canon” is the body of work by a particular author. The only one who can “develop” a canon is the author himself (or a group of authors if the work is a compilation). What the early church did was seek to recognize and accurately determine what was in fact canonical, i.e. what was truly part of this body of work. Not to at all diminish their efforts or results, but the only thing that truly makes a work “canonical” is its actual authorship.
Lisa Robinson on 12 Jul 2009 at 7:03 pm #
Curt, no worries over guilt. I actually enjoy this interaction and have a particular interest in this topic and hermeneutics. How we treat the process of God’s transmitting His revelation into a propositional format, will determine what we ultimately think of Him. Its quite a significant topic, at least IMHO.
Interestingly, I was going to cite that quote from Geisler and Nix (#155) with my other one but decided against it. I had also hoped to gather definitions from Grudem and Chafer but you beat me to it. So to complement your previous quotes, Chafer says this,
“by verbal inspiration is meant that, in the original writings, the Spirit guided in the choice of the words used. However, the human authorship was respected to the extent that the writer’s characteristics are preserved and their style and vocabulary are employed, but without the intrusion of error. By plenary inspiriation is mean t that the accuracy which verbal inspiration secures, is extended to every portion of the Bible so that it is in all its parts both infallible as to truth and final as to divine authority.” (Systematic Theology, Vol 1, pg 71,
Chafer also notes the significance of words , citing 1 Corinthians 2:13 and indicating that the holy men moved by the Spirit are transmitting the very voice of God. I think the logical conclusion from this position is that if divine authorship is ultimately the source, then to ascribe errancy necessarily forces that on the author.
Curt Parton on 12 Jul 2009 at 7:04 pm #
More from Grudem: On pages 80-81, he has a section titled “This Does Not Imply Dictation From God as the Sole Means of Communication.” He writes:
It must be emphasized that the Bible does not speak of only one type of process or manner by which God communicated to the biblical authors what he wanted to be said. In fact, there is indication of a wide variety of processes God used to bring about the desired result. [His emphasis.]
He goes on to reference God speaking “in many and various ways” (Hebrews 1:1). And gives Luke as an example:
On the opposite end of the spectrum from dictation we have, for instance Luke’s ordinary historical research for writing his gospel. . . . This is clearly not a process of dictation.
He concludes by speaking of God’s “providential oversight and direction” of each author’s life and work.
Note: Obviously, these quotes don’t establish the validity of any particular viewpoint, and there are many areas where I would strongly disagree with Grudem myself. I just post this to clarify his view of inspiration.
Curt Parton on 12 Jul 2009 at 7:11 pm #
Thanks, Lisa. I agree that this is an extremely significant issue, and I appreciate the seriousness with which people from different sides (or better put with differing perspectives) are treating it. I’m enjoying this discussion as well. Your Chafer quote is helpful, and harmonizes well with the others.
Curt Parton on 12 Jul 2009 at 7:34 pm #
For what it’s worth:
The works I’ve been checking all list a number of different theories of the mechanism for inspiration. The three that seem to be most apropos to our discussion are:
The dictation theory (I think we’re all clear on this).
The dynamic theory, which seems to give the writers complete freedom to express the concepts of God in their own ways.
The verbal theory, which seems to be a median position between the above two, still allowing for great freedom for the authors but ensuring the infallibility of the resulting scripture including the actual wording used.
Dave Z on 13 Jul 2009 at 12:35 am #
If God determines the words, it’s dictation. If the writer is constrained to using only one specific word in a given place, then the writer has no freedom and is simply taking dictation. The distinction made by VP (verbal plenary) advocates strikes me as lip service only. If the writers don’t contribute the words what do they contribute? Ink? VP would say style, but style is based on word choice and usage.
I looked up Erickson and his definition is the same as Grudem, Geisler/Nix and Ted Dorman, and it still doesn’t sit well with me.
As I understand it, VP seems to say that inspiration needs to create accuracy of each word. I would say inspiration need only ensure accuracy of the concept being communicated. For example, if Luke (who claims investigation, not inspiration) accurately reports an event, does it need to be inspired? Let’s say Luke spoke with Mary, other family members and disciples and they all told him Jesus was about thirty years old when he started his ministry. So Luke reports that in 3:23. What does inspiration add to Luke’s accurate report?
Explain why this needs to be inspired – ” When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas…”
Just a few posts ago, folks were agreeing that Paul sometimes expressed his own opinions and judgments. With clarified definitions of VP has anyone had a change of mind?
Dave Z on 13 Jul 2009 at 1:06 am #
If scripture (or a person) accurately communicates God’s intent, it is infallible on the basis of accuracy and authoritative because of content, even if not inspired. (Not as clear as I’d like, but maybe I can elaborate later)
I have no problem at all with divine control to ensure accuracy, I just question whether it needs to determine every word, which verbal requires.
It’s as if VP believes any level of accuracy is impossible without inspiration. I disagree.
To me, VP inerrancy places it’s faith in the words themselves, not in the power of the Spirit that brings those words to life. Case in point – for 400 years, the KVJ version ruled the English speaking world. These days it has been replaced by newer translation. In part because of changes in the language, but also because research and textual criticism have exposed problems in the KJV. Yet that version, clearly errant in places, has changed the world. That’s because the Holy Spirit’s power can operate in spite of imperfection.
As I said earlier, God’s ability to communicate is not held hostage to inerrancy or verbal plenary inspiration. Or to put it another way, error cannot veto God’s purpose.
Lisa Robinson on 13 Jul 2009 at 7:43 am #
Dave, I think you are misunderstanding verbal plenary. If God dictated word for word, that would be dictation. Verbal plenary is God breathing out His words through the use of the writers words so that every word that comes from the writers pen is inspired but it is their words. As Curt mentioned earlier, there is a mystery in that.
But what makes Scripture authoritative? It’s because its breathed out of the mouth of God. Otherwise, on what are we basing authority? And why would we want less than God’s very own words to base our authority?
The beauty of the inspired texts is that it is inscribing God’s revelation for us utilizing the only effective tool to do so – language. as Paul says spiritual thoughts for spiritual words. That language must effectively and accurately communicate Him and words are extremely important. Chafer notes this concerning concepts as being inspired,
“Quite apart from the fact that ideas are not transferrable by any other medium than words, this scheme ignores the immeasurable importance of words in any message. Even a legal document which men execute over trivial matters may depend wholly upon the word therein. Almost every covenant and promise contained in the Bible depends for its force and value upon one of the words used. Exegetical study of Scriptures in the original language is a study of words. It is to one end that the concept may be gained from words rather rather than that unimportant words present a concept…the Bible, when referring to its message, never calls attention to a mere concept; it rather speaks its message as committed to man in the words which the Holy Spirit teaches”. (Systematic Theology, Vol 1, pg 69).
Even Jesus emphasized the importance of words. How many times did he address his examiners with ‘it is written’.
Lisa Robinson on 13 Jul 2009 at 8:15 am #
Dave, something else to consider regarding the significance of words.
Then God said, let there be light; and there was light (Genesis 1:3)
The God said, let us make man in our image (Genesis 1:26)
The Lord appeared to Abram and said, ‘to your descendents I will give this land (Genesis 12:7)
Then God spoke all these words [to Moses], saying….(Exodus 20:1).
Think about that. When God gave the Law to the people, he did not provide them with a concept but with clear instruction concerning His requirements through the use of words.
Curt Parton on 13 Jul 2009 at 9:19 am #
Okay, we’re dealing with different issues here. Allow me to try to break them up. First, the extent of inspiration. Dave, you wrote:
For example, if Luke (who claims investigation, not inspiration) accurately reports an event, does it need to be inspired? Let’s say Luke spoke with Mary, other family members and disciples and they all told him Jesus was about thirty years old when he started his ministry. So Luke reports that in 3:23. What does inspiration add to Luke’s accurate report?
Explain why this needs to be inspired – ” When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas…”
I see your point, but I’m not sure how it’s helpful. Are you suggesting that we should try to determine what passages are inspired and which ones are not? Couldn’t we equally ask, “Was Jesus’ divine nature necessary when he ate breakfast? Explain to me why he had to be divine when he picked something out of his teeth?” The mundane aspects of his life don’t alter his divine nature, they just show very starkly his human nature. We don’t try to sort out which times Jesus was divine and which ones he was human. And I think the same can be said about the Bible. The passages to which you refer simply show very clearly the human aspect of the Word. But such mundane passages don’t call into question the inspiration of the Bible. I don’t think we should—or can—seek to determine the degree of inspiration for each passage.
Curt Parton on 13 Jul 2009 at 10:08 am #
Next, the nature of inspiration. (Sorry for the multiple posts, but I thought this might be easier.) Dave, I don’t think you’re being completely fair in defining the options. You wrote:
If the writer is constrained to using only one specific word in a given place, then the writer has no freedom and is simply taking dictation. The distinction made by VP (verbal plenary) advocates strikes me as lip service only. If the writers don’t contribute the words what do they contribute? Ink? VP would say style, but style is based on word choice and usage.
But you’re attributing something to this view that I don’t hear anyone saying. Where has anyone said that God constrains the writer to only one specific word? Just because God ensures the accuracy of each word doesn’t mean that he dictates each word. You’re allowing no nuance at all between the two extremes. To me this is a straw man of the verbal theory. I don’t know of anyone who would holds the theory who would agree with this. Just because an editor makes a writer change a word, does that mean the editor is dictating the article?
You go on:
As I understand it, VP seems to say that inspiration needs to create accuracy of each word. I would say inspiration need only ensure accuracy of the concept being communicated.
Again, I haven’t read where anyone claims that inspiration needs to create accuracy. You would be right in calling this dictation. But now you’re creating a false dilemma. We’re both talking about ensuring accuracy, just to a different extent. I see the different views as: ensuring the accuracy of the concept (with the possibility of error as long as the concept is accurately conveyed); or ensuring the accuracy of the communication (including the wording used).
I would ask: If God can ensure the accuracy of the concepts conveyed in Scripture, why couldn’t he ensure the accuracy of the wording used to convey that concept? And if you think this necessitates constraining the writer to only one specific word, just look at the incredible diversity we have in translational choices! The translators don’t feel constrained to use one specific English word. Yet they are still very determined that the words they choose accurately convey the meaning of the original. Eugene Peterson exercised great freedom in The Message, yet still sought to convey the meaning without allowing error to creep in.
–cont.
Curt Parton on 13 Jul 2009 at 10:12 am #
–cont.
If I asked my wife to convey a message, I would essentially have two choices. Either dictate word for word what I want her to say. Or allow her to freely convey the basic concept. But the Holy Spirit is not bound to the same options that I am. He can inspire fallible human authors to write holy scriptures. We may not be completely sure how he does that, and we can discuss and debate the implications. But we cannot insist that he operate under the same limitations that we do. If God can inspire humans to write scripture, why would he be limited to ensuring they convey just the concept accurately enough but with possibly erroneous wording or details?
Aaron Rathburn on 13 Jul 2009 at 10:14 am #
What do the Little Mermaid, postmodern philosopher Jacques Derrida, and the Bible all have in common?
For anyone interested, I just posted a new blog post, “Lies, Damned Lies, and Hermeneutics: A Postmodern Take on Biblical Historiography”
(Just click the hyperlink in my name)
I’d be interested if anyone wanted to comment!
Curt Parton on 13 Jul 2009 at 10:53 am #
Lastly, the necessity of a completely infallible Scripture. Dave, you wrote:
“How can the final product be infallible or authoritative if there was no divine control over the actual composition?”
If scripture (or a person) accurately communicates God’s intent, it is infallible on the basis of accuracy and authoritative because of content, even if not inspired. (Not as clear as I’d like, but maybe I can elaborate later)
But if you don’t have an inspired, infallible (inerrant) Scripture as a guide, how do you know what does and does not communicate God’s intent? Unless you have a reliable standard, you have no way of knowing if this scripture or person is conveying God’s intent. You can trust your instinct, but that’s not always a reliable guide. How do you know what’s straight if you don’t have a reliable level?
I have no problem at all with divine control to ensure accuracy, I just question whether it needs to determine every word, which verbal requires.
But, to go back to a question from the beginning of this thread, if this alleged Divine Scripture contains error, why should I assume anything in it is a source of truth or standard for faith? At least any more than any other book out there? If the Bible can’t keep the little things error-free, why should I believe that the big concepts are error-free? (And if you agree that the Bible is free from erroneous wording, that’s VP!)
To me, VP inerrancy places it’s faith in the words themselves, not in the power of the Spirit that brings those words to life.
Again, this is a false dilemma. Why do we have to choose between the Spirit and the words? (Remember John 6:63.) Your statement sounds a lot likely the old liberal argument that the Bible isn’t the Word of God, but that if God illuminates some passage to you then it “becomes” the Word of God to you. That sounds nice, but it’s pretty ethereal. And it leaves us again with no reliable source or guide. Of course we don’t want to diminish the place of the Spirit in our lives, but shouldn’t we also treasure and study the words through which He communicated His truth to us?
–cont.
Curt Parton on 13 Jul 2009 at 11:09 am #
–cont.
That’s because the Holy Spirit’s power can operate in spite of imperfection.
As I said earlier, God’s ability to communicate is not held hostage to inerrancy or verbal plenary inspiration. Or to put it another way, error cannot veto God’s purpose.
I don’t think anyone would deny that God can work through us even though we make mistakes. But none of us are setting ourselves up as the source of truth and standard of faith. And, with all due respect to the KJV, it was only that source and standard as it accurately translated the original. (There are very serious reasons why we don’t accord the same authority to one individual translation that we do to the original texts.) This all goes back to intent, as you’ve pointed out previously. Did God intend to give us such a source of truth and standard for faith? And if so, did He intend to give us a source of truth that also contained error? Why would He? And if God’s communication contains error, how can we rely on it and in what way can it be authoritative?
I don’t see the problem in believing that God chose to communicate through human authors by means of His inspiration resulting in writing that is both human and divine. And if He did actually do that, it seems natural that He would ensure the complete accuracy of what was communicated. I fail to see where such a belief is unwieldy or strains credulity. It can be discussed at great length and its implications can be explored. But it doesn’t require me to jump through logical hoops or dance around challenges. To me, it seems to best fit what the Scripture claims about itself, what the early church taught and how the early church used the Scriptures.
I apologize to everyone for my long, multiple posts. Maybe this isn’t the best medium for me. Or maybe I just need to learn to be more disciplined in my writing.
Dave Z on 13 Jul 2009 at 11:16 am #
I’d say that in a sense, the Holy Spirit IS ethereal, and the Spirit is our guide. That’s what bugs me about the VPI view- it seems to discount the role of the Spirit to some extent. As I said, the Spirit operated through an errant KJV for some 400 years, and changed the world.
Back to earlier point, if God inspires every word then does Paul express his own opinion, and if so, in what sense is it authoritative? And that’s why I wonder about the level of inspiration in various places.
So, now that we’ve reestablished the meaning of VP:
… “I wish all men were as I am…”
Paul’s opinion or not?
Inspired (meaning “from God”, “God-breathed”), carrying God’s authority, or not?
Not sure I agree with that. Maybe there could be a better analogy – a teacher guiding a student, a proofreader looking over a paper… I’ll think about it.
And this is why I see VPI as (possibly) eisegesis – starting with the NEED instead of the text – we must have, therefore it is.
That thinking leads to a fundamentalism where questions cannot be asked.
Dave Z on 13 Jul 2009 at 11:24 am #
Curt, you posted while I typed, so I responded to stuff you already responded to. Or something like that. :^)
I appreciate your reasoning and I don’t mind the long posts, I hope CMP can afford the bandwidth (grin).
Gotta run, will try to check back in later.
rayner markley on 13 Jul 2009 at 12:40 pm #
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would come and guide His followers into all truth. Presumably, that doesn’t mean only when they were writing, so if the Spirit had guided them previously then they already knew truth accurately when they sat down to write. There doesn’t need to be special inspiration at the time of writing, and none of the NT authors reported being aware of any.
EricW on 14 Jul 2009 at 10:40 am #
J. Rodman Williams has a 7-part online essay on this:
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleStudyAndTheology/DrWilliams/BK_Scripture_ch01.aspx
Jason Leonard on 24 Jul 2009 at 9:20 am #
Wow, nobody has really answered the original questio nyet but veered off on many different topics instead.
I thought JP Holding handled this pretty well at his Tektonics site. He goes beyond the semi-lame answer Haneegraaf gives.
http://www.tektonics.org/tsr/abby.html
He basically points to “high priest” being taken as “great priest”, since the office of high priest did not exist back then. So instead, it is the “renowned priest” Abiathar that Jesus is using to help make the greater point in his sentence – that nobody would have been a better judge of the law, but even he cut David some slack.
Keith Marshall on 30 Jul 2009 at 10:16 am #
All,
Just to say thank you for this facinating discussion.
Just one quick query regarding Daves posts in reference to seeming mundane stuff by Paul …
Can we view the content of the books as not necessarily being the inherrent and infallible truth but rather that the record of what is being written is without error and true … does that help?
We read Judas hung himself … we don’t believe it was God’s will but that it is a true record. We read Satans words to Jesus … we don’t believe the Holy Spirit inspired Satan but that the record of what is said is true.
We read Pauls human letters but believe that naturally\supernaturally God enabled all that he wished to communicate to the church then and to us now … to be communicated and recorded … so that just as Jesus was truely human (not just a pretend human) & truely divine … so the words and letter that was composed reflect a truely human Paul but communicate truely divine truths.
Not sure if that helps or obsures. Like all of you I’m trying to get my head around a lot of stuff being shortly to join the Lisa ranks though in Ireland.
Best wishes,
Keith
Keith Marshall on 30 Jul 2009 at 10:21 am #
ps I do hope the conversation will continue
regards,
Keith
#John1453 on 20 Aug 2009 at 7:39 pm #
Has anybody read Ben Witherington II’s book “The Living Word of God – Rethinking the Theology of the Bible”.
Chapter 3 of that book interacts at length with Peter Enns’ book “Inspiration and Incarnation”. Enns agrees with more recent understandings of the Bible and inerrancy / infallibility that God accomodated His word to human beings and through human beings. However, Enns builds on this premise to argue that God may have allowed the writers to say things that may not actually be true, but which communicated a true message.
Witherington is sympathetic to Enns’ concerns, and agrees with him to some extent, but finds in the end that Enns’ approach ulitmately undermines scripture. Witherington finds that Enns’ book comes across as “a plea to become agnostic about the importance of the historical substance of the text”.
Both Enns and Witherington deal with the Abiathar issue. BWII in c. 3 of his book. BWIII mentions 3 issues that help explain things: (1) the importance of Abiathar, (2) the translational possibilities of the Greek preposition “epi”, and (3) textual differences in manuscripts.
Enns, on his blog, raises a good point: “If Scripture is God’s revealed truth, consistent in all its parts, profitable for all sorts of correction, reproof, etc., is there really room for tensions and paradoxes of any sort at all? What purpose do these tensions and paradoxes have in a Bible that is, according to Waltke’s own standard, “consistent in all its parts?”
jlaney on 22 Aug 2009 at 11:31 am #
I didn’t read all the arguments above, but have heard this sort of arguments for years. If I can change the focus somewhat, there is a story that bothers me. God gave the 10 commandments to Moses, 2 of which were, thou shall not kill, and another, thou shall not steal. But then a few years later he has his children kill Cannanites and steal their land. To me this is a more serious discrepancy than who was in charge at what time. Did God change his mind about his own rules?? jlaney
A contradiction! Con someone explain? - Christian Forums on 20 Sep 2009 at 11:20 am #
[...] some links to read On Bible Errors and Contradictions: A Defense of Sacred Scripture as Inerrant Parchment and Pen A Possible Error in the Bible? Does the Bible contain errors, contradictions, or discrepancies? __________________ To view [...]
todd vetter on 22 Sep 2009 at 10:45 pm #
The best case for bible errency can be found at this link.
http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/the%20death%20and%20resurrection.pdf
The best case for the correct time line to the death and resurrection can also be found at that same link.
If we are to live by every word that proceeded from the mouth of God. What will we as Christian do when we Hear God’s voice and it contradicts the bible?
Check the link to see why this prophecy is fulfilled today.
Jeremiah 16: 19-20 FULFILLED
19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress, My refuge in the day of affliction, The Gentiles shall come to You From the ends of the earth and say, “Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable things.” 20 Will a man make gods for himself, Which are not gods?
This next prophecy will reach personal fulfillment with you when you find what the Christian world is missing that divides them.
4. All truth is in God, and I bear witness unto the truth. I am the true Rock, and on this Rock do I build my Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it, and out of this Rock shall flow rivers of living water to give life to the peoples of the earth. 5. Ye are my chosen twelve. In me, the Head and Corner stone, are the twelve foundations of my house builded on the rock, and on you in me shall my Church be built, and in truth and righteousness shall my Church be established. 6. And ye shall sit on twelve thrones and send forth light and truth to all the twelve tribes of Israel after the Spirit, and I will be with you, even unto the end of the world. 7. But there shall arise after you, men of perverse minds who shall through ignorance or through craft, suppress many things which I have spoken unto you, and lay to me things which I never taught, sowing tares among the good wheat which I have given you to sow in the world. 8. Then shall the truth of God endure the contradiction of sinners, for thus it hath been, and thus it will be. But the time cometh when the things which they have hidden shall be revealed and made known, and the truth shall make free those which were bound.
This is a small piece of what is missing.. look to find the rest within you.
God Bless
oldman on 27 Sep 2009 at 10:14 pm #
So when the bible refers to a bat as a bird, we pretend God knows the difference, but the people of the age wouldn’t, couldn’t understand how a mammal could fly, so …………..excuse the errors and pass the wine?
oldman on 28 Sep 2009 at 1:14 am #
How about the old book being a guide on how we can better live our lives. Seeing how most people no longer beat their slaves, trade their wives, stone their children for misbehaving, or follow the strict Jewish diet found on so many of the pages?
Dave Z on 28 Sep 2009 at 9:18 am #
Oldman, regarding the bird/bat thing, the ancients just classified according to a different standard. We base “mammal” on furry, warm blooded, live birth (well, except for the platypus and a few other egg-layers) and lactating, so we call a bat a mammal. They based “bird” on”it flies.” Not an error, just a different method. Classification is not some a science we’ve discovered, but something we’ve kind of made up. It’s not as if one method is right and one is wrong according to some universal standard.
oldman on 28 Sep 2009 at 9:45 am #
They didn’t refer to non-flight birds as birds? Of course they did. My point is either the bible is the word of God or it isn’t. There are mistakes in the bible that God wouldn’t have made. Another example is in Genesis, where the sun and stars are referred to as two separate and distinct creations. God would have know the sun is a star. It is the fact that in all the cases where information not known to the locals, but known to the creator, would be proof of Gods existence, the bible got it wrong.
todd vetter on 28 Sep 2009 at 12:51 pm #
One of the greatest lies to ever manifest in Christian tradition is to call the BIBLE the word of God. In truth this is a book containing a collection of Books that record the words spoken by God and God’s interaction with man. It’s not every word that proceeded from the mouth of God. So to limit your understanding of God to Catholic Doctrine would be to make a false God cutting you off from actually hearing God’s voice as God’s children do.
For the best evidence of bible Error.. see the time line at this link.
http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/the%20death%20and%20resurrection.pdf
Simple Error to point out. Both Matthew and Luke illustrate the Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem and Cleansing of the temple on the same day. Mark however illustrates the cleansing of the temple the day after the Triumphal entry.
For Man to state that the apostle was mearly recalling the Event at it happend is to say that it was not inspired by the holy Spirit since the Holy spirit brings to rememberance all truth.
Truth is that this event can only happen on a single day if it occured only one time.
The big question to ask is why does the Gospel of John place the cleansing of the temple event 3 years ealier during the first passover of Christ’s ministry when Christ was 60 miles north of Jerusalem feeding the mulititude near the sea of galilee?
Dave Z on 28 Sep 2009 at 4:59 pm #
Oldman, I was just pointing out that the bat example is not a very good argument.
oldman on 29 Sep 2009 at 3:34 am #
Sorry, but you are wrong about the classification of animals as something we just made up. It is a system that represents the differences in the various species of animals. The differences are real, some animals are more closely related than others. Only the truly ignorant would say a bat is more like a bird than it is a mouse.
In this example the bible is telling people what animals to eat and which ones not to eat according to the world of God. It is a glaring mistake, but as the above post points out not the only one.
Dave Z on 29 Sep 2009 at 1:54 pm #
So the classification of animals is a universal truth that we discovered, not invented, kinda like mathmatics? C’mon, now.
Classification is entirely our own creation. Let’s say I wanted to categorize people. I could group them by age or gender or height or language, hair color, eye color or whether they’re Cubs fans or White Sox fans. Or anything else.
I could group animals by whether they have teeth (lions, snakes, sharks) or don’t have teeth (chickens, turtles, jellyfish). Or land animals (ferrets, lizards) and marine animals (whales, seahorses). Or whether they can fly (dragonflies, ducks, bats) or not (nightcrawlers, rabbits). All these are perfectly valid categories, every bit as valid as standard biological categories, just created for a different purpose.
You say “Only the truly ignorant would say a bat is more like a bird than it is a mouse.” So are you saying the ancients were too dumb to see that a bat resembles a mouse? These people who could read and write? Don’t forget, this was written by people who had been living in Egypt, a culture whose accomplishments are still impressive today. And we’re not talking rocket science, we’re talking about simple observation. To support your point, you must claim they were so unobservant they never noticed the difference between feathers and hair. And that a bat’s wing has no feathers at all! Boy, that would be stupid people!
As I see it, the only options for explaining the bird/bat thing are either stupid (truly ignorant) people or a different basis for classification.
#John1453 on 29 Sep 2009 at 2:23 pm #
re oldman’s posts 86 & 89, “They didn’t refer to non-flight birds as birds? Of course they did.”
How about an equally unsupported, “Of course they didn’t”? Unless you have some documentary or linguistice evidence to support your point, I’m unconvinced.
Linnean classification is, obviously, a recent development and our present day scientific definition of what a “bird” was did not exist either. Classification systems of semitic peoples were based on function or form. In this case, the Hebrew word ‘owph which is translated as “birds” means merely “owner of a wing”, and is derived from a root word which means to cover or to fly. Consequently the category of ‘owph includes flying things such as birds, bats, and certain insects. Even today we still classify some things by form or function or even location rather than on inherent biological traits. For example, modern ecologists classify water-dwelling life according to their mode of living: plankton (floaters/drifters), nekton (swimmers) and benthos (bottom-dwellers). (Finally, after more than a decade, my university class in ecology has come in handy).
regards,
#John
Dave Z on 29 Sep 2009 at 8:16 pm #
Hey John,
I was wondering if there was a linguistic element to this, but hadn’t had a chance to look it up. Thanks!
todd vetter on 29 Sep 2009 at 8:19 pm #
The information at the link is the difinitive evidence needed to illustrate that the 4 bible gospels we have in the bible today came from one written gospel source.
http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/diffinitive%20evidence%20the%204%20gospels%20came%20from%20one%20original%20source.pdf
The true Gospel will only come from the mouth of God through those who believe and obey to judge rightously.
God Bless
oldman on 03 Oct 2009 at 3:06 pm #
Please read Leviticus Chapter 11 verses13-20. This is the Lord speaking to Moses and AAron, about which fowl to eat and which to avoid.
Yes, you can group snakes and chickens together if you want to, but the connection is very thin. The creator knows better. You should too.
fish5133 on 20 Oct 2009 at 5:38 pm #
Our church has in its staement of faith that it believes in the inerrancy of scripture as in the original autographs which by implication means that the Bible translation we use today is not inerrant. Ive lost count of the number of times our pastor has held up the Bible in church waved it around and declared we believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. Ive always wondered who the “we” is he is referring to
For an interesting list google 101 contradictions in the bible produced by a muslim. I believe someone has done a repsonse to it. Ive gone through most and without too much bother (and I am not a great bible scholar) saw the ridiculous ness of some of the supposed contradictions. Others do however make you think about what “inerrancy” and “inspiration” mean.
Love reading different peoples views in the search for truth
Lisa Robinson on 20 Oct 2009 at 7:52 pm #
Fish, actually by implication the copies are inerrant. Scripture is inerrant because it is God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16). The text is inspired by God, which by extension applies to the copies.
EricW on 20 Oct 2009 at 8:31 pm #
199. Lisa Robinson on 20 Oct 2009 at 7:52 pm #
Fish, actually by implication the copies are inerrant. Scripture is inerrant because it is God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16). The text is inspired by God, which by extension applies to the copies.
Lisa:
Here is the ETS doctrinal statement:
Can you name any officer or member of the Evangelical Theological Society or any professor at Dallas Theological Seminary who claims or says that the ETS doctrinal statement re: inerrancy implies that the copies are inerrant?
Can you refer me to a doctrinal statement on inerrancy by an official church or organization that claims that the copies by implication or by extension are also inerrant?
todd M. vetter on 20 Oct 2009 at 8:37 pm #
Scripture is perfect. The bible is not. The old covenant which is perfect was written on stone. The New covenant is written by the spirit on the heart… not on paper.
You must fulfill the old Covenant by the example of Christ to receive the New Covenant.
The resurrection of the son of man is re-birth by repentance.
The sign of jonah is that Christ rested in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights. The resurrection from death occured 3 years earlier.
See the link to my site for evidence of this.
God Bless
Lisa Robinson on 21 Oct 2009 at 12:05 am #
Eric, yes I am aware of that the DTS doctrinal statement ascribes inerrancy to the autographs. My comment by implication was in refutation of Fish’s assertion that the Bibles we have cannot be inerrant since they are not the originals. I probably could have worded it better. My bad, since I since I have to sign off on both statements (ETS and DTS)
#John1453 on 21 Oct 2009 at 12:18 pm #
Re post 97 by oldman
Oldman’s observation only tells us about his culture and time, not about that of Hebrew speakers when the text was composed and then written. Consequently his observation is linguistically irrelevant, culturally ignorant, and anachronistic.
Languages are very different from each other, and the systems of thought and organization that they encode are equally different from each other. Hence his statement proves nothing excep that the organization / categorization doesn’t make sense to him (or me either, but then again I’m not a 4,000 year old Hebrew speaker).
regards,
John