http://www.ligonier.org/tabletalk/2009/5/1158_Dealing_with_Differences

I don’t consider this a fight Kara, but sometimes it is necessary to correct when an attack is made. I appreciate that you read through the former thread and appologized for mixing me up with another commentor. Thank-you. As far as “widespread bigotry in Calvinist churches” goes, all I can say is that I have not been exposed to this, but I’m sure bigotry exists on both sides of the fence. Some people get wrapped around the axil about almost anything.

I never said I love Arminians and Pentecostals. I said that I don’t know any Pentecostals, but I’m sure I know some Arminians (probably some at my church), and I don’t think of them any differently than anyone else. We don’t discuss these differences at our church.

Furthermore…..and this is important!: Michael was not calling Arminians liars! He used that provoking title to grab attention, as he often does with his titles, but his point was that we should not call people liars because they don’t agree with our position. I happen to know that Michael has good friends…..very respected friends, who are Arminian. He would never call them liars!

Hopefully, Kara, this will serve to clarify some misunderstandings you have with me. I REALLY DON’T have anything against Arminians, so don’t lump me with others you have run across who do.
Have a good day!

All Mormons, Arminians and Roman Catholics are liars.

We never resolved the issue from that. But it seems to me you can’t let anything go. The first post you responded toward me was Steve Martin’s post…do I need to show the post because it is in the archives.

You kept saying and wanting me to affirm that widespread bigotry does not occur in the Calvinist churches to which I said it happens in all churches and you seemed upset that I would even hint that it does. It does. You seemed insistent on saying you love Arminians and Pentecostals to which I will respond…apparently if you love us you would be quicker to defend us on a blog post calling us liars. But you didn’t. Instead you kept prodding me and calling me a sinner by saying we all are. You are disgruntled on the fact I disagree. This is a throwback to that post thread.

Now we have a choice, either quit responding to each other and ignore the other or I don’t have to come back here. You don’t defend Christianity, you defend Calvinism. So adieu, we don’t have to fight any more.

“Yes, you did start it in the first set of posts when I first identified myself as Pentecostal. I will say that happened in the very first blog I was on. You and some others here do not like to be contradicted in any way. When I hear things like “When I was a Pentecostal” Or “The Pentecostal church I was in” or “Pentecostals are all…”, do you see that by agreeing with them and making comments like that you have indeed done that. Please don’t pretend you haven’t. And when I say “No, we are not all like that” why could you not for once just say anything positive? You never did.

So when I defended my position I was coined a hateful liar.”

I think that you are confusing me with someone else. I have never been a Pentecostal, so I wouldn’t make such statements. As far as I know, I haven’t ever known a Pentecostal, nor have I had ANY negative thoughts about Pentecostals. In fact, my pastor said recently that the great movement of the Gospel in some parts of Africa currently, is through the Pentecostal church, which is something I consider very positive.

I have NEVER made a single negative statement about Pentecostals. So, when you put the above statements in quotes, suggesting that I said something like that, you are indeed mischaracterizing me!

So, for you to then add, “Please don’t pretend you haven’t” made such statements……doesn’t make your accusations toward me any more true. If you don’t believe me, go ahead and read former threads and try to find any instance where I ever made such a statement. I never did!

I said plenty of positive things. I don’t view Arminians as lesser servants of God’s kingdom. I view them as equals.

I NEVER called you or anyone else here “a hateful liar”….. I have never suggested anything even remotely close to that about you.

Again, you put me in the position of having to correct all sorts of false statements you have just made about what I have said!

karakittle@yahoo.com

Yes, you did start it in the first set of posts when I first identified myself as Pentecostal. I will say that happened in the very first blog I was on. You and some others here do not like to be contradicted in any way. When I hear things like “When I was a Pentecostal” Or “The Pentecostal church I was in” or “Pentecostals are all…”, do you see that by agreeing with them and making comments like that you have indeed done that. Please don’t pretend you haven’t. And when I say “No, we are not all like that” why could you not for once just say anything positive? You never did.

So when I defended my position I was coined a hateful liar. I stated very clearly that some people who ascribe to certain doctrines treat other people that way. And instead of saying it is possible you took it personal, so that means either you are like that or you are ok with people doing it…except Pentecostals doing it.

Did I mischaracterize you personally? I don’t think so. But I disagree with your doctrine and you will have to get used to it. There are many more like me who are tired of church bashing.

It probably went into your email because you clicked the tick of notify me of follow up comments. I thought about how I wanted to respond and I did. But being over the 3000 word limit it disappeared. And yes, there is false niceness on these blog posts and there is bigotry in certain churches.

* I am not angry with you.
* I am not bothered by Arminians
* I feel no need to convert Arminians to a Calvinist position (quite frankly, I don’t care)
* It doesn’t bother me when others state their disagreement with Calvinist positions.
* I have never said anything negative about Arminians. Not about their beliefs. Not about their behavior. Not about their treatment of others.
* You, on the other hand, have said quite a lot of negative and even mean, and untrue things about those who hold to a Calvinistic perspective. It is as if you have a huge chip on your shoulder toward those who are Calvinistic in their beliefs. It’s clearly a prejudice you have.
* I’ve been a participant at this blog site for a year and a half, and you are the only person who has ever made such strongly negative, and sweeping comments about Calvinists (brothers and sisters in Christ)….on a previous thread.
* You have a tendency to consistently misrepresent me, and others, with your comments. In other words, you paint me to be someone I am not, and I’ve noticed that you sometimes do this with others as well.
* This puts me and others in the position of having to correct your misrepresentations of us…. as Michael has had to do somewhat on this thread.
* You accuse some of “false niceness”. That strikes me as judgmental.

I think that it is a good idea to “give people the benefit of the doubt”, as my pastor has said. You often do the opposite, thus putting people in the position of defending themselves to your mischaracterizations.

Amen!

Kara, I must admit that as I read this post I thought of you immediately (before I read the comments). You tend to be guilty of grossly misrepresenting “Calvinists”, to the extent that myself and others are burdened with the necessity of correcting your harsh, uncharitable misrepresentations in a way which produces the very imbalanced discussions of which Michael has written. You have done a good job of illustrating this here as well. If you wish to chastise Michael, could you not do so privately…. via his posted email address?….. instead of openly (before all who are learning from him), in such a way as to obscure the entire point of this post?

Frankly, I think that it is the rare Christian leader who is so willing to “tell” on himself. It demonstrates humility. After all, we are instructed by God to confess our sins to one another. We can learn from the confessions of others.

For what it’s worth, this reminded me of a similar stupid travel-argument I once had with my husband while descending from the mountains. It was a clear day, and I commented that you could even see the ocean in the distance. My husband was sure that that was impossible. I reasoned that you can see the mountains from the ocean… so why not the reverse? It turned into a heated argument (about 2001). I think that Michael’s illustration is one which MOST of us can relate too. Feel free to add this confession of mine to your list of what kind of person I am!

Interesting post. I disagree, but I don’t wanna fight about it.