Quick Thought On Transubstantiation
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Transubstantiation is the belief held by Roman Catholics that the bread and wine at the Eucharist transform miraculously into the body and blood of Christ. While the accidents (the taste, smell, and all non-essential qualities) do not change, the substance of the bread and wine do change into the actual body and blood of Christ. Others also hold to some form of the “Real Presence” including the Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans. The Orthodox believe, like the Catholics, that the bread and the wine actually and substantially become the body and blood of Christ. They just don’t fill in the “how” details as much as Catholics, leaving it more a mystery. So technically, they don’t call it Transubstantiation. Lutherans, believe that the presence of Christ is really “in, with, and under” the bread and the wine, but the substance is not transformed. This is called “consubstantiation.” Some Anglicans believe in the Real presence and even allow for a form of Transubstantiation.
My question (or thought) here is quick and relatively painless to understand. It is a question that is not loaded in any way as my problem will be explicitly expressed by the question. Also, my question has only to do with those who hold to a Real Presence in body and blood (i.e. not a spiritual Real Presence).
Most who believe in some form of Transubstanitation will defend this view by taking a very literal interpretation of Christ’s words during the Lord’s Supper:
Matthew 26:26-28 “While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.”
“This is my body.” These are the word that Luther etched onto the table in his famous meeting with Zwingli.
Indeed, it was these words that were used by the Council of Trent as a primary justification for a belief in Transubstantiation: “Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation” (Council of Trent [1551]: DS 1642; cf. Mt 26:26 ff.; Mk 14:22 ff.; Lk 22:19 ff.; 1 Cor 11:24 ff. Catechism of the Catholic Church 1376).
The brief questions that I have for those who believe that Christ’s words must be taken literally are these (all related):
As I said, this is not loaded. I am most certain that thoughtful people have worked through this, I have just never heard an answer that seems to make any sense.
If you enjoyed this post, make sure you subscribe to my RSS feed!- Do Catholics Deny Chalcedon in their View of Mass?
- Why did He let them walk away: John 6 and transubstantiation
- Why I Don’t Buy the Roman Catholic Interpretation of John 6 in Defense of Transubstantiation
- Friday's with Aquinas: Did Christ Rise Himself From the Grave?
- Essentials and Non-Essentials: How to Choose Your Battles Carefully
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cheryl u on 11 May 2009 at 1:36 pm #
Michael,
I am not one that believes in transubstantiation. However, I remember reading an article when there was a lot of commenting going on on the other thread on this subject. Someone pointed out that it was not from an official Catholic site so how accurate it was I am not sure.
However, as I remember it, what they were saying was that Jesus’ sacrifice actually started the night that He instuted the Eucharist. In some way they were saying that they believe the bread and wine literally became His body and blood that night too. So that is evidently at least one Catholic way of understanding this.
Dennis Elenburg on 11 May 2009 at 1:38 pm #
> my question has only to do with those who hold to
> a Real Presence in body and blood (i.e. not a
> spiritual Real Presence).
This question seems to have embedded assumption that there is something distinctive between a “Real Presence” and “spiritual Real Presence”.) This is almost (but not quite) an implication that something spiritual is not real.
My question to your question is this: Why does it matter?
Bryan Cross on 11 May 2009 at 1:48 pm #
Michael,
St. Augustine said, “How this ['And he was carried in his own hands'] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. For Christ was carried in His own hands, when referring to His own Body, He said: ‘This is My Body’. For He carried that Body in His hands.” (Psalms 33:1:10)
In the peace of Christ,
- Bryan
Bryan Cross on 11 May 2009 at 1:54 pm #
It should be Psalm 34:1.
Steve in Toronto on 11 May 2009 at 2:14 pm #
One Question, one comment. 1) Does anyone know if any of the church fathers (or anyone else for that matter questioned the doctrine of “real prescience” until the reformation? 2) any one examining this question should also consider the Reformed position that Christ is “spiritually” but not physically present and the that holy communion is one of the “ordinary means of Grace” and at least as important baptism and preaching as instruments of Gods grace.
God Bless
Steve in Toronto
Dennis Elenburg on 11 May 2009 at 2:30 pm #
> consider the Reformed position that Christ
> is “spiritually” but not physically present
Can anyone show me from Scripture a reason why I should believe that something spiritual is not physical or real?
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 2:32 pm #
Dennis, “why does it matter?” Interesting question that essentially begs the purpose of discussing theology at all! I will have to leave that for another time!
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 2:35 pm #
Dennis, no one is trying to say that “spiritual” is not real. In the context that we are discussing this right now, “real” has the connotation of “physical.” It is a kind in substance, not existence. Hope that helps us to move beyond this nuance to the questions I posed.
Justin Richter on 11 May 2009 at 2:35 pm #
Can’t we say that the bread is literally his body, with out us saying that it is literally his “physical” body. Do we believe, as Protestants, that we are literally the body of Christ? Was Saul literally persecuting Christ when he persecuted to the Church? In Acts 9 Jesus seems to think so. The question becomes what does ‘literal’ mean?
Historically speaking, it seems as if the Church fathers have always held something close to transubstantiation/ consubstatiation. If you read Cyril of Jerusalem’s Catechetical lectures he even teaches people how to hold the bread. He states that one should hold there hands in a way that resembles a throne, because it is Christ who sits on it. To him the bread was not just bread but the presence of Christ.
In the end, as Protestants we probably should not believe in transubstantiation. But why do we feel compelled to believe the exact opposite of it?
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 2:36 pm #
Bryan, I don’t see how this would answer the questions in any way.
Bryan Cross on 11 May 2009 at 2:46 pm #
Michael,
If so, since the verb “is” (estin) is in the present tense, do you believe that it was his body at the time of the original Lord’s supper?
Yes, just as St. Augustine said.
If so, don’t you think this is a violation of Chalcedon?
No. It is fully compatible with Chalcedon.
In the peace of Christ,
- Bryan
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 2:52 pm #
Brian, can you answer those questions in your own words? I am not finding Augustine’s comments helpful.
Dennis Elenburg on 11 May 2009 at 2:59 pm #
I believe that Christ’s words must be taken literally, and not just Christ’s words but all of Scripture. (2Tim 3:16)
> “real” has the connotation of “physical.” It is a
> kind in substance, not existence. Hope that helps
> us to move beyond this nuance to the questions
> I posed.
I’d like to participate in the discussion, and I’m not trying to nuance anything. I have to understand the language and categories being used before I can participate. I’m not a theologian. My degree is in physics, and I’m a computer guy. I haven’t even taken all of “The Theology Program” courses, so I apologize for my slowness on the uptake of the deep theology.
I have a lot of interest in this matter, and I’m just seeking to understand.
Dennis Elenburg on 11 May 2009 at 3:06 pm #
Justin wrote:
> Can’t we say that the bread is literally his
> body, with out us saying that it is literally
> his “physical” body.
That’s where my thinking was headed, but I was told this was a “nuance.”
I have no idea what “derridian linguistic deconstruction” is, but it looks like I hit a hot button in the related Facebook discussion. I’m genuinely trying to understand this topic, but I guess it is over my head with all these big words and deep theological terms.
The best teachers are those who can talk in plain language. The physicality of reality and how that relates to Biblical concepts is interesting to me because my only formal education is in the natural sciences. It seemed like this topic is the perfect test case for thinking through those issues, but I’m not feeling very welcome here.
Dennis Elenburg on 11 May 2009 at 3:20 pm #
Justin writes:
> The question becomes what does ‘literal’ mean?
I asked that exact same question in Facebook and then Brad, Dwight, and Michael jumped all over me about “derridian linguistic deconstruction.”
Even Michael wrote this in Facebook:
> Jesus did say, “I am the gate.” What does
> “am” mean. What does “gate” mean?
Question 2 of the original 4 in your post, Michael, is about the tense of the verb “is”. Last time I checked “is” and “am” are both the same verb. Why am I the nuancer when you’re doing the same thing? LOL.
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 3:29 pm #
Dennis, I am good with that. My question would be then was it his body when he gave it to his disciples? If so, in what sense? Was it actually and physically his body at that point?
If so, don’t we just deny Chalcedian Christology at that point? If not, please explain.
I would really like someone who believes in the real physical presence to answer, but it is certianly open for other discussion.
Jugulum on 11 May 2009 at 5:34 pm #
Interesting…
Dennis said,
My first thought was to ask what that means for “I am the door”.
Dennis, where’s there’s discussion on Facebook? I don’t see a discussion section of the RMM page. Michael, do you have a personal page?
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 5:38 pm #
Yes, it runs through my personal feed. You can get to it by clicking on the icon on the right.
Chad Winters on 11 May 2009 at 5:47 pm #
Do we always have to take figures of speech, metaphors and symbolism literally?
I remember reading this passage prior to any knowledge of the controversy and it never occurred to me to think Christ meant that the Bread had turned into actual flesh and we (and the original disciples) were supposed part of his arm, leg or whatever. It seemed to be a clear symbolic ritual (like many others in the Bible) to do in remembrance of him. It seems to fit all the other symbolic, metaphorical language in the bible (I don’t see rivers of living water running around willy nilly either)
I’m thinking if Christ meant it literally to be flesh and blood then it would taste and smell, literally like blood. It seems like major double speak. “It is really changed to flesh and blood, but it looks, tastes, feels like bread, and if chemically tested it would be bread…but its really part of a gastrocnemius muscle”
lets add stumbling blocks to the gospel…..
mbaker on 11 May 2009 at 5:55 pm #
Jesus also told Peter three times to feed His ’sheep’. Peter obviously didn’t take that literally either, since he started what we now know as the Catholic church.
Damian on 11 May 2009 at 5:56 pm #
Greeting!
I’ve been doing some reading on the subject of the Eucharist and would like to highly recommend “The Banquet’s Wisdom: A Short History of the Theologies of the Lord’s Supper”, by Dr. Gary Macy: John Nobili, S.J. Professor of Theology, Santa Clara University.
Highly readable. Dr. Macy does a great job simplifying a complex subject. He’s a Roman Catholic, and I’m reformed, but I thought his treatment was irenic, balanced, and eye opening from both the Catholic and Reformed points of view.
Peace,
Damian
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 6:04 pm #
Damian, did he deal with this particular issue in the book? If so, what is the sum of what he said?
Shawn Snow on 11 May 2009 at 6:42 pm #
Michael, I love you blog and consider it a privilege to post here as this is my first.
I have wrestled with these particular doctrines for quite sometime. It was communion that drove me away from the evangelical “once a month communion is a pain in the deacon’s hind quarters” churches. It always seemed wrong to me that Jesus commanded we remember him with the bread and the wine but most evangelicals reduce it to once a month and Welch’s grape juice. God Forbid if the worship leader who sings the same chorus over and over again sing it a few less times so there could be time for communion. Or maybe the Pastor could tell one less joke or promote one less conference so we could partake of the Lord’s Supper…
I digress…
Regarding transubstantiation, your question is thought provoking. However, when I think about communion I like to consider Mathew 18:20: “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” If Jesus can pull this mystery off the mystery of communion is not a stretch for me. I think the Romans tried way too hard to come up with a systematic and ritualistic approach to the mystery of communion. I also get upset when our brothers in Rome and Grecce withhold the cup from folks who haven’t jumped though the proper hoops within the system.
I figure none of us are worthy…
But that’s a whole other discussion.
But these issues alone don’t disqualify us from thinking about the Christ being present in the elements.
I do have another question for those of Rome…Last time I was at mass I noticed that maybe only 20% of the folks drink the cup but all take the bread. It seems very odd to me. For folks with such a high regard for the Eucharist doesn’t that smack in the face of transubstantiation?
Just some thoughts and thank all of you for helping me understand an issue I have struggled with for a long time.
God Bless you all.
Dennis Elenburg on 11 May 2009 at 7:03 pm #
Michael Patton asks:
> was it his body when he gave it to his disciples?
Yes, this is what Jesus said. I don’t think anyone can argue with this b/c it is the plain reading of the text.
> If so, in what sense?
Hence the debate.
> Was it actually and physically his body at that point?
This is the nuance problem. I guess we can talk about it now?
> If so, don’t we just deny Chalcedian Christology at that point?
I’m lost at this point. Neither “derridian linguistic deconstruction” or “Chalcedian Christology” are in my Bible, so I cannot hang with you big word people. Once you start introducing extra-biblical systematic theologies and ideas, things get complicated quickly. Why can’t we keep this focused on what the Word says?
> If not, please explain.
If you could point me to the chapter & verse in Scripture that contains the “Chalcedian Christology” relevant to this topic, I’d be better equipped to answer. I don’t have a seminary degree. I’m just a simple Bible guy.
Dennis Elenburg on 11 May 2009 at 7:11 pm #
Chad asks:
> Do we always have to take figures of speech,
> metaphors and symbolism literally?
I can only answer for myself, but I think wooden-headed literalism is rarely a problem for the people I see discussing topics in these forums. Why read the bible differently than you do other important documents? The text itself usually has many clues as to the intent of the author. I don’t need a seminary degree to use a common sense literal, grammatical, and historical hermeneutic.
Damian on 11 May 2009 at 7:19 pm #
Michael,
Summary of a 200 page book would be difficult for me. He does deal with most of these issues in their historic context. He deals with the concepts of “real” and “presence”, and how those words hold different meanings at different times. For example, Radbertus would have a different concept of “real” than Aquinas (and from us in the 21st century). The entire idea of a “real”, physical realm vrs. a spiritual one would have been foreign to theologians prior to the enlightenment (with the possible exception of Berenger). That’s seems to be the outcome of the persistent Protestant/Catholic arguments that arise from the enlightenment thinking.
As far as I’m concerned, I like Calvin’s concept of us being raised “up” to Christ in the Eucharist rather than Christ being brought down from the “Heavenly realm”. I think that there is great value the Eucharist. I would not go to the memorialist view as I think that leads into gnostic dualism where nothing of “physical” reality can have “spiritual” value. Nor would I go into an over definition of the presence where the Eucharist is then worshiped in adoration as this defeats the purpose of the sacrament itself, which is to be eaten (a physical act).
Did I avoid the question?
Peace,
Damian
Dennis Elenburg on 11 May 2009 at 7:44 pm #
> The entire idea of a “real”, physical realm vrs. a spiritual
> one would have been foreign to theologians prior to
> the enlightenment
Exactly! Projecting our post-enlightenment proclivities and biases into Scripture is the problem I was hinting at. I had to become un-enlightened from my natural sciences biases before some of the Bible began making sense to me. Reading the Book with a literal, historical perspective helped me a lot.
Thanks for making this point, Damian.
Samson on 11 May 2009 at 8:16 pm #
I think you oversimplified the understanding of the Eucharist.
I think you should deal with the best arguments from Roman Catholicism and not from cherry picked arguments.
When I read this it looks like an argument from somebody who doesn’t understand the “whys” of the issue and is only looking at the “hows” of how you can understand it from the starting point of your doctrines.
Also, it seems to take a solo (yes i said solo) scripturist attitude and an exaltation of Church Councils.
And, don’t make the argument of “That’s what they do” if your not going to allow it’s use for the proof of the doctrine.
I would like to see a good understanding and argument for the doctrine before a rebuttal. I think the concept of transubstantion is very reasonable, logical, historical, and biblical. It is also completely necessary for salvation!
Now, having said all this I still disagree with it. How? I start by understanding and articulating the belief accurately and irenically.
Then I know what I’m disagreeing with.
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 8:38 pm #
Dennis, this might help: http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/do-catholics-deny-chalcedon-in-their-view-of-mass/
It is related and will explain Chalcedon.
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 8:53 pm #
Damian, no, I was not wanting a summary of the whole book, just about this particular question here. It focuses on what seems to be a dilema. Say yes and deny Chalcedon. Say no and admit that one is not really taking it literally, but symbolically as Protestants (at least at this point).
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 8:56 pm #
Sam, I am lost.
I am not making an argument against the doctrine. I am posing this question because I find it confusing. Now, if the two options that I have in mind are the only alternatives, it does end up being a very strong argument against it.
Still waiting for an reasonable answer. I am sure there is one out there. I just really don’t know how those who believe in transubstantiation would respond.
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 8:59 pm #
Good to see you Shawn. Read the post on Chalcedon and you might see where I am coming from. I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 9:01 pm #
As a quick moderating aside:
Please keep on topic.
The topic is not the validity of transubstantiation in general, but specifically how do those who hold to transubstantiation understand Christ’s words at the Lord’s supper in relation to his then current pre-resurrected body and how do they reconcile it with Chalcedon (if he was physically in the first Lord’s supper).
John G. on 11 May 2009 at 9:21 pm #
Let’s look at the practical implications of transubstantiation. One thing that is important to note is that in Roman Catholic theology the Eucharist is in itself a sacrifice. In fact it is considered the same sacrifice that Christ accomplished on the cross. Because the bread and the wine were actually Christ’s body and blood, the Lord’s Supper was actually the first true sacrifice, not the cross. So essentially, each time Roman Catholics partake of the Eucharist they are putting Christ back on the cross as a sacrifice. That is why transubstantiation matters.
From what I understand:
Yes, Roman Catholics take the words “This is my body” literally.
Yes, they believed it was His body at the time of the Last Supper because this was the first real sacrifice.
And finally, yes, it appears they have a problem with Chalcedon…
Jugulum on 11 May 2009 at 10:15 pm #
Dennis,
No one can argue, sure… In the same sense that no one can argue Jesus is really the door.
Are you saying that “I am the door” is wooden literalism, but “this is my body” is not?
Damian on 11 May 2009 at 10:32 pm #
Michael,
Alright, a direct answer to the question…
If a person holds to the extra calvinisticum then yes, transubstantiation is going to have problems with Chalcedon. This would also apply to the Lutherans I would assume.
I think the way out of it is to go with a eastern orthodox understanding. They believe in the “reality” of Christ’s presence (the same presence and flesh born of Mary) but they don’t try to understand it as the Thomasists do. This is why I called transubstantiation “overly defined”. If you’re going to define the how, when, who can, etc, of the “change” then you’d better be prepared to answer the questions posed with the same level of precision and not shuffle them off as “mysteries”.
Damian
D.Williams on 11 May 2009 at 10:36 pm #
Nobody believes that the Eucharist is putting Christ back on the cross. What is believed is that it is a part of Christ’s one sacrifice on the cross.
Michael: I don’t think tradition has anything specific to say about your question (other than the Augustine quote already mentioned). The “this is my body” verse is only partly the biblical justification. The other parts is the seriousness with which Paul took the Eucharist (people getting sick and dying by partaking and not recognizing the body of the Lord etc). And also John 6. And of course, Tradition itself. Tradition doesn’t have to provide a yes or no answer to your query in order to assert its truthfulness.
C Michael Patton on 11 May 2009 at 10:43 pm #
Damian,
The normal answer to the general Chalcedonian/Transubstantiation conflict is to say that after the resurrection there is the communication of attributes, but not before.
That is why this is a substantial question and different from the general objection since it is before Christ’s death and resurrection.
EricW on 12 May 2009 at 12:03 am #
CMP:
If Jesus had meant to say “this loaf/bread is my body” (or if the Gospel writers and Paul had wanted to convey this about what he said), wouldn’t he (or they) have more likely used the masculine near demonstrative pronoun houtos (ουτος) – to agree gender-wise with artos (αρτος) – than the neuter touto (τουτο), which is in fact what he used/said?
τουτο μου εστιν το σωμα το υπερ υμων (1 Cor 11:24)
I.e., “This thing/feast/Passover/meal/gathering/event/act is my body.”
C Michael Patton on 12 May 2009 at 12:07 am #
It is very possible; I have not heard this argument before.
EricW on 12 May 2009 at 7:55 am #
CMP:
I had overlooked it in the hundreds of times I’d read the “words of institution,” but the discussion in my Baker Exegetical Commentary on 1 Corinthians (David Garland) mentions it with reference to another scholar, though noting that it’s not necessarily conclusive, IIRC.
I think it’s something to consider, though, esp. since at the Passover meal the matzah didn’t “become” the bread the Israelites took out of Egypt, nor did the wine “become” the blood of the lamb into which the hyssop had been dipped that first Passover.
Michael on 12 May 2009 at 8:10 am #
Michael,
I would refer you to Fr. Stephen Freeman’s blog Glory to God for All Things. Last month he had a post that I think would be relevant to your questions.
http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/take-eat/
Here is an excerpt from that post:
First, the commandment is simple – an action described in two words. It is also an action that can (and is) taken even by very young children. In Orthodoxy we commune children as soon as they are Baptized and Chrismated (from about 40 days old or so). It is not only a simple commandment but reverses the oldest of prohibitions in man’s story with God. We refused to keep the proper fast in the Garden, eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil when we had been told it was the only tree from which we were not to eat.
Left untouched was the Tree of Life. To guard that tree, and to prevent man from becoming an everlasting, unrepentant demon, we were cast out of the Garden and an angel with a flaming sword was set to guard the tree’s approach. Of course, we now understand that the Cross is itself the Tree of Life, and Christ Himself is the Life that hangs from that Tree.
It is the fruit of the Tree of Life that is brought forth in the Cup in the Holy Eucharist. The doors of the iconostasis are opened (like the very gates of paradise) and the Deacon comes forth chanting, “In the fear of God, with faith and love draw near.” The Banquet of Life begins.
D.Williams on 12 May 2009 at 8:28 am #
“wouldn’t he (or they) have more likely used the masculine near demonstrative pronoun houtos”
No he wouldn’t. Do you say “my body, it hurts”, or do you say “my body, he hurts” ?
Rey on 12 May 2009 at 8:30 am #
I’m not RCC so I doubt I can answer for them, but I was thinking that there was a way to keep it literal, and present then, without having to violate Chalcedon…just not sure it can be proven with any theological force.
EricW on 12 May 2009 at 8:42 am #
D. Williams:
I do not understand your point. English is not Greek. The “gender” of a noun in Greek has nothing to do with its sex or whether it’s animate or inanimate.
As to your question, while in Greek I’d say, “My body, it hurts” (because soma is “neuter”), I’d also say, “My head, she is hot” (because kephalê is “feminine”), and “The world, he is good” (because kosmos is “masculine”).
Adjectives and pronouns in Greek normally agree in gender, number and case with the nouns they refer to or are modifying.
EricW on 12 May 2009 at 9:06 am #
I think that’s technically true for most Orthodox. However, a rose by any other name….
From The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (see the words I bolded):
Priest (in a low voice): Together with these blessed powers, merciful Master, we also proclaim and say: You are holy and most holy, You and Your only-begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. You are holy and most holy, and sublime is Your glory. You so loved Your world that You gave Your only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. He came and fulfilled the divine plan for us. On the night when He was betrayed, or rather when He gave Himself up for the life of the world, He took bread in His holy, pure, and blameless hands, gave thanks, blessed, sanctified, broke, and gave it to His holy disciples and apostles saying:
Priest: Take, eat, this is my Body which is broken for you for the forgiveness of sins.
People: Amen.
Priest (in a low voice): Likewise, after supper, He took the cup, saying:
Priest: Drink of it all of you; this is my Blood of the new Covenant which is shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.
People: Amen.
Priest (in a low voice): Remembering, therefore, this command of the Savior, and all that came to pass for our sake, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand of the Father, and the second, glorious coming.
Priest: We offer to You these gifts from Your own gifts in all and for all.
People: We praise You, we bless You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to You, Lord our God.
Priest (in a low voice): Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we ask, pray, and entreat You: send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here presented.
Priest: And make (poiêson – ποιησον) this (touton – τουτον) Bread (Arton – Αρτον)* the precious Body of Your Christ.
Amen.
Priest: And that which is in this cup the precious Blood of Your Christ.
Amen.
Priest: Changing (Metabalôn – Μεταβαλων) them by Your Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Amen.
* And to the point in my earlier posts #39 & #44: You’ll see in the Greek text of the Liturgy that the “this” in “this bread” is the masculine touton (the singular accusative form of houtos), not the neuter touto – which is why Christ’s use of the neuter to refer to the giving of the bread might mean something.
http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/liturgy_chrysostom_greek
Kalyn on 12 May 2009 at 9:55 am #
This is probably not the best way to argue or take a stand against a position, but what I’ve always wondered is if that particular verse is to be taken literally, i.e. the bread/wine literally becomes His body/blood because He declared “this is my body/blood” on what basis does one argue that He is not literally a door since he says that He is the door and that we knock and He enters. He says He’s the ‘lamb’ of God. No one takes that literally. There’s an awful lot of like scripture that is not taken literally except this one.
I’ve also wondered, and did ask once when someone was trying to convince me that it literally was His blood/body, what do they do with the unused elements.
I have a question, if I may. Is it taught it becomes His body/blood once it enteres the person’s mouth or is it His body/blood before? At what point is it taught that the elements turn into His body/blood? When it enteres the church? When the elements are being made? When the priest does his blessing or when it enters the mouth of the person?
EricW on 12 May 2009 at 10:17 am #
Kalyn:
I believe that for the Roman Catholic Church, the bread and wine are believed to change when the priest pronounces the words of institution – i.e., “This is my body,” etc.* I.e., the priest has the power/authority to effect the change. (Roman Catholics can correct me here by quoting the CCC, if necessary; I’m just going by what I remember or have read.)
In the Orthodox Church, as you can see in the excerpt from the Liturgy, the change is believed to be effected by the Holy Spirit, not by the priest or by what the priest says or by any power or authority he has, and it is believed to occur during the Epiclêsis – i.e., the “calling upon” the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus – but not at any precise moment. However, it is believed to have changed before the priest and the communicants take from the chalice. In the Orthodox Church, the central section of the leavened loaf of bread, called the “lamb,” is broken into crumbs and placed into the chalice with the wine, from which the communicants receive both the bread and the wine via a gold spoon the priest holds and gives them to drink both from.
In both the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Church the consecrated bread and wine continue to be the body and blood of Jesus after the change. In the Orthodox Church, the priest drinks what remains in the chalice if there is anything left of the wine and the “lamb,” so there is really nothing left to dispose of. I don’t know how the Roman Catholics handle consecrated hosts or undrunk wine. The Orthodox Church does not know or do anything like the Roman Catholic “Eucharistic Adoration,” so they don’t have consecrated/changed bread lying around or in a monstrance or on an altar for people to worship or adore. It’s changed by the Holy Spirit during the Liturgy, and completely consumed during the service.
* From what I’ve read, it is possibly true that our words “hocus pocus” for “magic words” derive from this, for in the Latin Mass, “This is My Body” is “hoc est corpus meum,” I believe. So people would mock or imitate the priest’s words as “hoc est corp us” or “hocus pocus” when doing their magic tricks and waving their hands and magically “changing” whatever they were doing in their trick.
Michael on 12 May 2009 at 11:02 am #
Jesus said that if you do not eat His flesh or drink His blood you have no life in you (John 6:51-53, . The Eucharist is Christ present with His church, it is an extension of the incarnation, the transfiguration, the crucifixion and the resurrection. How do you know Christ? Foremost by eating His flesh and drinking His blood, He is the Word of God. We become partakers of His nature (2 Peter 1:4) We must die (Rom 6:3) and be resurrected(Rom 6:5) with Him in baptism (Gal 3:27, Phl 3:10,). We receive Him in the Eucharist for the forgiveness of our sins (Is 6:7, Col 1:4)
Susan on 12 May 2009 at 11:50 am #
To say that priests have the power to pronounce something…. a material substance, to be the actual flesh of Jesus, is disturbing. There is certainly no argument to be found in scripture for that! RC Sproul says that he would not take communion in the Catholic church because the priest genuflects to the box where the elements are held, which he sees as an act of idolatrous worship.
Jesus says, as Jugulum points out: I am the door, also; I am the vine, I am the good shepherd, I am the root, I am the Alpha and the Omega, and……I am the Bread of Life!
In saying, “I am the bread of life” He is referring to the eternal life which comes through Him. It seems that communion is a symbolic affirmation, a reminder, of how Jesus brought us this life, spiritually,as well as physical, eternal life.
John 6:33 “For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 So they said to him, Sir, give us this bread all the time!” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. The one who comes to me will never go hungry, and the one who believes in me will never be thirsty.”
This is all very metaphoric language. This bread is ours when we “come” and “believe”, not when we physically eat.
Michael’s question is a GOOD one! It’s entirely illogical to say that Jesus was passing out pieces of his own body for the disciples to eat. Why would that be necessary? We aren’t saved by the eating, but rather we are saved by the recognition of who He is, and what He has accomplished on our behalf…
EricW on 12 May 2009 at 12:03 pm #
In the same Gospel that John 6 is found it, Jesus said that His food was to do the will/work of His Father, food His disciples didn’t know about or understand. He said that He lived because of His Father. Unless Jesus ate His Father’s body and blood, I don’t see why anyone would think when He told His followers to eat His body and blood that He meant anything different than how He lived His own life – i.e., by the life and power of the Father who dwelt within and in union with Him in order that He might do His will and work. And what did Jesus say in the same Gospel that it meant to do the work of God? It was to believe in the One whom God had sent. To come to Him. To abide/remain in Him, and so joined to Him, to produce abiding fruit.
Vance on 12 May 2009 at 12:11 pm #
I always find this discussion amusing in one sense. Very often, those insisting that this Scripture must be read symbolically and non-literally are also the ones that insist on a literal, non-symbolic interpretation of almost every other Scripture, like early Genesis.
Jesus is allowed to use metaphor and symbolism, but the writer of Genesis is not. :0)
EricW on 12 May 2009 at 12:18 pm #
Vance:
And in the case of the Catholic Church, those insisting that this Scripture must be read literally are also the ones that teach a symbolic, science-and-evolution-friendly interpretation of early Genesis.
Vance on 12 May 2009 at 12:29 pm #
Eric, exactly! Everybody picks and chooses when they will read “literally” and “symbolically” and then complains that everyone ELSE is picking and choosing! :0)
A lot of beams in a lot of eyes, most of the time!
Michael on 12 May 2009 at 12:35 pm #
“I always find this discussion amusing ”
The whole problem with this discussion is that the different sides are using the same theological terms differently. Protestants are tyring to stick to a sola-Scriptura, but in the end just interpret it in the Augustine-Anslem-Aquinas-Luther-(Calvin, Arminian, etc) tradition. Sola-Scriptura does not exist. Interpreting this Scriptures outside the living, dynamic Church has lead to the erroneous doctrines of denying the real presence, sola-fide, sola-scriptura, substitutionary atonement.
It is not a question of not using tradition to interpret scripture, but which tradition are you going to use? Study the scriptures, church fathers and church history!
EricW on 12 May 2009 at 12:43 pm #
Been there, done that, bought the icons.
As for “erroneous doctrines,” the Catholics and Orthodox are interpreting it in the Platonic and Greek and scholastic tradition, divorced and deviating from the Hebrew speech and meaning and understanding of Jesus and His followers. Though many recognize what happened, these Churches are too far down the road and have dug too deep a hole of unchangeable Traditions and dogmas and infallibilities to climb out or go back and undo, redo and correct their errors.
Tit … for … tat.
Michael on 12 May 2009 at 12:58 pm #
Eric W’s need to put a “tit for tat” response made me aware that I need to apologize for the tone of my previous post. I did not intend for it to come out that way. Please forgive.
Jugulum on 12 May 2009 at 12:59 pm #
Vance,
Right… Because clearly, neither YEC non-transubstantiationists nor OEC/TE transubstantiationists are aware of the potential issue you’re pointing out.
They have no sensible, considered reasons for taking Genesis as a historical account, and taking “This is my body” symbolically. (Or on the other side, for taking Genesis as non-historical, but “This is my body” non-symbolically.)
Clearly, that’s just inconsistent. There are no relevant hermeneutical differences between the two. It’s just picking and choosing!
EricW on 12 May 2009 at 1:05 pm #
Michael:
My apologies, too, for not putting a smiley
after my “Tit … for … tat” – which was meant to be taken in a friendly, not adversarial, manner.
Come to Dallas and we’ll discuss the Lord and Transubstantiation over a cold brew….
Henry on 12 May 2009 at 1:21 pm #
On this matter of sometimes taking things literally, other times metaphorically? I generally agree that it’s rather arbitrary and inconsistent.
But to be sure, there might be a sort of rough dividing line of a sort out there, regarding the consciousness of this. Specifically, the Old Testament seems to being taking things rather literally. But the New begins to consciously speak of “parables” and “allegeries” and “figures” of speech; which is to say, metaphors.
So it seems like while to be sure, the whole Bible could be – and probably should be – taken metaphorically, the consciousness of metaphors, seems to have come up especially in the New Testament. In the era after Philo, and some other scholars.
Though to be sure, many language scholars admit that “all language is metaphorial” at base. Like the Hebrew words for “wind,” that we now translate as “spirit,” or vice-versa.
Vance on 12 May 2009 at 2:18 pm #
Jugulum,
unfortunately, most often it IS just picking and choosing (noting the understandable sarcasm of your post). The method of reading the text is based on which best supports their doctrinal position (as with transubstantiation) or (as with Genesis), it is often based on what seems most straightforward to our modern minds and preferences.
I usually only see hermeneutical analysis coming after the fact, from those who already have a position.
Henry,
while this is heading off in a different (albeit related) direction, the use of symbolic and figurative language, even when describing historical events, was actually the norm in the times when the OT was being written and compiled. This is currently a point causing much angst in the evangelical community at the moment, of course, with Peter Enns and others explaining these things. A different discussion, though.
Jugulum on 12 May 2009 at 3:41 pm #
Vance,
I do still think that your comment 52 was silly, at least as written. That is: The joke was, “Look how inconsistent it is for them to do both this and that!” But I read “this and that”, and thought, “Yeah, so?”
But, I suppose I’d be on board if you were defining “The same people who insist” as “The same people who insist out-of-hand, without any nuance or argument based on the particulars of the passage, language, genre, etc“.
I’m on board with you that it’s a common human trait, not specific to creation/evolution.
Also, this part makes me wonder:
The thing is, if I’ve come to a conclusion (based on careful, open-minded consideration), and I explain why, then what are you going to see? Someone who already has a position giving hermeneutical analysis!
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 May 2009 at 3:51 pm #
Michael: “Study the scriptures, church fathers and church history!”
Yes!!
Studying church history reveals that the early church fathers supported and affirmed Sola Scriptura!!
Vance on 12 May 2009 at 4:06 pm #
Jugulum, yes, it is definitely a human trait and not specific to any particular theological or exegetical position. If you did some background research of everyone who strongly asserts a theological position, backing it up that position with Scripture and seemingly solid exegesis and hermeneutical analysis, I bet you would find that 90% of them were taking a position that they grew up with, or was the position of the denomination into which they came to be Christian. Coincidence? Of course not.
And, yes, this is a generalization, and for every rule there are exceptions (which prove the rule).
So, as to your last question, I would first wonder what your predisposed position would have been (the one you would have likely held as a default prior to any analysis). If it was the one you were backing now, it would definitely raise the question of whether it is a case of the (pre-existing) tail wagging the (hermeneutical) dog. It is just so hard to be entirely objective and when our final conclusions happen to match our original presumptions, we should definitely consider how open-minded we are being.
Raise the question, mind you, not be conclusive by a long shot! Very often, our preconceived ideas might actually be the ones we would also reach after full and objective analysis. After all, right is right! :0)
Kara Kittle on 12 May 2009 at 6:52 pm #
T U & D,
What did people do when they didn’t have the Bible to read? They trusted solely in the church fathers telling them sola scriptura. We see how well that worked out.
We should relax just a little bit and understand there are some who just can’t read the Bible. Do they get the idea of sola scriptura? Literacy is a great gift from God, but some people never quite grasped it. What do you say to someone like that?
That is where abuse started, from people who pretended to know more tell others what the Bible said when it did not. Sola scriptura only works when we can read the primary source document. I advocate all people to learn to read and comprehend. But there are some who never get to learn. How then do we minister to them using sola scriptura?
One time I bought a KJV in Spanish and had it in my car. A lady I worked with was from Guatemala and she saw the Bible in her language and it overwhelmed her with emotion so I gave it to her. She was overjoyed because she had the Bible in her hands in her language. But I don’t speak Spanish, could I have taught her from the Bible I could not understand?
Kalyn on 12 May 2009 at 8:30 pm #
“If you did some background research of everyone who strongly asserts a theological position, backing it up that position with Scripture and seemingly solid exegesis and hermeneutical analysis, I bet you would find that 90% of them were taking a position that they grew up with, or was the position of the denomination into which they came to be Christian. Coincidence? Of course not.”
The above is, actually, a very interesting statement. There are some that come from no theological background/denomination where they were taught that it means a certain thing. I will share my personal experience. I did not come from a Christian background and, in fact, had never heard of the Lord’s Supper until AFTER I came to Christ. I actually remember the first time I participated in the Lord’s Supper and having no clue what I was doing or what it was for. I had to ask someone where in the bible this was found. After reading it, it did not even occur to me that the elements were the actual body/blood of our Lord. The first time I read it in the bible, I had literally no influence from any denomination – as I said, I had no idea what I was doing the first time I participated. I simply watched everybody else and did what they did trying to make sure I didn’t do anything different. In fact, I was rather uncomfortable as I felt out of place not knowing what it was about or what I was supposed to do.
Anyway, after I read the passages in the bible, I simply understood it to mean that it was a representation of His body/blood. While I understood it was a representation, I had no idea why at that point in my walk. What I am saying is that I took it as a representation without any outside influence. It was not until (and I don’t remember how much later), that I learned that there were some that held to the belief that it was His actual body/blood and not a representation. I was still rather new to Christianity but, again, I do not remember how new. So I guess a good question is if someone without any influence whatsoever, come to believe that it was His actual body/blood if they simply read it in the bible after coming to Christ?
Jugulum on 12 May 2009 at 9:32 pm #
Kara,
One thing that I learned about Greek is that the word for “to read” means either “read silently, to yourself”, or “read aloud for others”.
So, I think the answer to your question about illiterate people is, “If I can’t read myself, I can have someone read to me.” Someone can simply read it aloud, or they can both read it and explain the meaning.
It’s always better if we can read it ourselves and delve into it, but illiterate people can still practice sola scriptura.
mbaker on 12 May 2009 at 9:45 pm #
Jugulum,
Thanks for saying that. Sometimes us ‘dummies’, who have no formal theological training, do actually manage to somehow (could that possibly be the Holy Spirit instead?) get what God is saying.
Thanks for bringing up that point. I hate elitism no matter which side it comes from!
David on 12 May 2009 at 10:05 pm #
Eric: “The “gender” of a noun in Greek has nothing to do with its sex or whether it’s animate or inanimate.”
Perhaps I misunderstood your argument. Body is neuter, so if he is REALLY saying that “this is my body”, why would he agree the case with bread? If he had agreed in case with the bread, that would be an argument it is still bread.
Chad Winters on 12 May 2009 at 11:25 pm #
Dennis: “Michael Patton asks:
> was it his body when he gave it to his disciples?
Yes, this is what Jesus said. I don’t think anyone can argue with this b/c it is the plain reading of the text.”
Funny, but this quote of yours in response to Michael is exactly what I would call “wooden-headed literalism”. I don’t mean that to be offensive, but as I said in my first quote, literal blood dripping flesh instead of blood was not what I got out of the text letting it “speak for itself” nor did I get “metaphysical mumbo-jumbo….it really is even though it really isn’t”
I got symbolism and remembrance and God-ordained ritual….but I did not see “eating the actual flesh and blood”
This sounds much harsher than I want…..don’t take it that way, I’m just trying to contrast what I got in using a “a common sense literal, grammatical, and historical hermeneutic.”
Kara Kittle on 12 May 2009 at 11:41 pm #
Jugulum,
Have you ever read about the missionaries to Hawaii? Interesting study of sola scriptura taken a little too far on people who didn’t want it. It’s how we live our lives from applying what we have learned from the Bible that counts.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 13 May 2009 at 12:43 am #
Kara,
With all due respect, I don’t think you understand what the doctrine of Sola Scriptura represents and what it means.
Start with part 1 of CMP’s multi-part series on Sola Scriptura to obtain the necessary background.
Pax.
Lisa Guinther on 13 May 2009 at 2:49 am #
Wow…I read through all the responses…and I was waiting for it..yet no one went there…1 Corinthians 11:23-30…so my question is…so what is going on that the Apostle Paul would write about people getting weak, sick and “falling asleep”? Yeah, I don’t know either, but I make sure my “heart” is right before taking communion (Eucharist…however you refer to it) Obviously, something spiritually and physically profound is taking place…and I don’t think it is merely a memorial taking place…and I know I don’t have the answer; and I’m not looking for the answer here…I’m thinking that God puts this in the ‘need to know’ area…and I’ll just go on by faith!
Blessings,
Lisa
EricW on 13 May 2009 at 6:36 am #
What I’m saying is that if Jesus meant to imply that “This [loaf/bread which I have in my hands and am giving to you] is my body,” in Greek one would normally expect the word “this” to agree in gender, number and case with the word “loaf/bread.”
By using the neuter, it can suggest that He was referring to something other than the actual bread/loaf in his hands. The remark in Garland (1 Corinthians, Baker, p. 547) I referred to is this:
D.Williams on 13 May 2009 at 7:00 am #
Jesus doesn’t mention the word “bread”. You don’t agree the case with a word which is unstated. If the item is truly unstated (as in “what is this?”), you would use the neuter anyway. The case needs to agree with the word which is stated, which in this case is body.
Jugulum on 13 May 2009 at 7:31 am #
Kara,
I’m really not following. Can you explain what you mean? What aspect of Hawaiian missionary history you’re referring to?
Michael on 13 May 2009 at 7:36 am #
Kara,
Are you referring to the appearance in Evangelical Christianity that one is to put their faith in the cannon of scripture before placing faith in Jesus Christ? Is that why the Hawaiian’s saw no difference between Christianity and their idolatrous religions?
mbaker on 13 May 2009 at 7:57 am #
I’m wondering if the bread was meant to also represent the manna from heaven, which was a forerunner of Christ, as the living Bread of life in the OT. The OT manna (meaning, what is this?) was eaten for sustenance, but it was also a symbol of Christ, the living Bread to come. It was some of the disgruntled Israelites who demanded meat, and it killed them because of their human interpretation of what they thought was better for them.
One would certainly think if the flesh part is literal in the NT, then Jesus would have been cutting meat with His disciples instead of breaking bread.
It still all comes down to the sacrifice He made either way.
EricW on 13 May 2009 at 8:06 am #
D. Williams:
Have you taken any classes in Koinê Greek? I.e., are you speaking from knowledge of the language and grammar, or are you making statements based on what you think it should be?
Do you know how demonstrative pronouns work when they are in the predicate and attributive positions, and when they function as substantives? Do you know and understand the syntax of demonstratives?
You write: “If the item is truly unstated (as in “what is this?”), you would use the neuter anyway. The case needs to agree with the word which is stated, which in this case is body.”
Then what does the “this” refer to? Are you saying that Jesus is saying, “This body is my body”????
You’ve lost me.
To quote from an online Greek grammar, Elements of the Greek Language, Taken from the Greek Grammar of James Hadley (Google Books):
In 1 Corinthians 11:24, the normal syntactical antecedent for the demonstrative pronoun would be arton (masculine singular accusative of artos, bread/loaf) in 11:23; it’s unstated in 11:24a as the object of what He broke. As the above Greek Grammar notes, one would normally expect the demonstrative pronoun (which most believe is recalling or referring to the substantive artos) to agree with artos in number and case – i.e., one would expect Jesus to use the masculine singular, houtos. Instead, one sees in 11:24 that He uses the neuter singular, touto. This thus suggests the possibility that Jesus’ use of touto does NOT in fact refer to the bread, but to His action or to the Seder or to the gathering itself, etc.
If, as you seem to suggest, the “touto” is supposed to refer to and agree in gender and number with the stated word soma (body), then the “this” must mean something OTHER THAN the bread He’s holding. What, D. Williams, would that be?
EricW on 13 May 2009 at 8:18 am #
To continue/clarify:
This thus suggests the possibility that Jesus’ use of touto does NOT in fact refer to the bread, but to His action or to the Seder or to the gathering itself, etc. Or it could refer to the bread AS WELL AS SOMETHING ELSE or SOMETHING MORE.
He goes on and says, “Do THIS (again using touto) as My memorial.” This could very well mean that the Passover meal was now about HIM, and no longer about the Exodus from Egypt. Paul says that Christ is our Passover.
I think it’s a mistake and a misunderstanding of Jesus’ words and actions and the Passover context in which He said and did them to so literally identify the bread and wine with Jesus’ body and blood such as to insist that the bread and wine of communion become His literal/real body and blood (or, as the Catholic Church would say, His body, blood, soul and divinity).
Chad Winters on 13 May 2009 at 8:22 am #
Using a common sense, grammatical, historical hermeunetic here…given that this was a Jewish Passover meal where everything on the table is there to symbolize something (unleavened bread, hyssop, salt, etc.) it seems obvious that the original hearers would see Jesus words as an equivalent symbolic “meal” to do “in remembrance of me” as the Jews celebrated their “salvation by the lamb” from Egypt.
It seems to me that the symbolic ritual meaning is far more likely than a literal transmutation.
EricW on 13 May 2009 at 8:40 am #
mbaker:
In John 6, the clear reference Jesus is making is to the manna, and not to the matzah of Passover.
And why did God give the Israelites manna? So they would learn that man does not live by bread alone, but by everything (Greek LXX panti rhêmati) proceeding from the mouth of God. (Deut. 8:3).
And in John 6, Jesus says that the words (ta rhêmata) which He has spoken to them are spirit and life.
They misunderstood His words then, and those who insist, based on John 6, that He was talking about the bread and wine literally turning into His body and blood misunderstand His words today.
Kara Kittle on 13 May 2009 at 9:10 am #
EricW,
What does Koine Greek have to do with a scripture first given in Hebrew?
The manna from heaven was not the same thing as matzo. We know the matzo of passover was not to contain leaven, or yeast. That was what Jesus was referring to in the seder meal when he referred to himself in the seder. Unless you have been to a seder meal then you won’t understand the elements.
The manna from heaven was given after the Jews were freed from Egypt and wondered around the wildnerness. Manna contained honey which matzo did not. And we have to understand that Moses said the passover meal was to be eaten forever, throughout all generations.
We can’t apply Hellenistic viewpoints of Greek paganism to interpolate into Hebrew scripture. There was no manna given the night of the passover when the seder meal was instituted. It was the matzo.
Kara Kittle on 13 May 2009 at 9:21 am #
Michael,
We know historically that it was those of the offspring of Puritanism who were staunch Calvinists who evangelized the Hawaiians and Polynesians while the same time enslaving them in the pineapple fields and stealing the throne in the name of the United States.
They did indeed convert Hawaii but at what cost? Does the end justify the means? That would be Machiavellian.
EricW on 13 May 2009 at 9:28 am #
Kara Kittle:
Re: Koinê Greek vs. Hebrew: D. Williams is questioning my comments about the Greek demonstrative pronoun in 1 Corinthians 11:24. That is why I am asking about his knowledge of Koinê Greek.
Re: understanding Passover: I was raised Jewish – circumcised, bar-mitzvahed, the whole bit – and have even written a Passover Haggadah based on how the Feast would have been celebrated in the 1st-century (i.e., before the destruction of the Temple).
Re: Manna vs. Matzah: I’m speaking specifically about John 6. Some view John 6 as Eucharistic. I’m pointing out (agreeing with mbaker) that John 6 is about Manna, not Matzah. This weakens the Eucharistic identification of John 6, IMO.
Shalom!
Michael on 13 May 2009 at 11:14 am #
‘What does Koine Greek have to do with a scripture first given in Hebrew?’
The Hebrew text is not the source for the cannonical Scriptures. All quotes in the New Testament of Old Testament Scripture comes from the Septugient (LXX). It is held that this translation was divinely inspired, since all NT references come from it and also doctrines can be found in it, such as the prophecy of the Virgin birth in Isaiah, resurrection of the dead in Maccabees. The Hebrew cannon became unreliable, especially after the diasporadic post-Judaic Council of Jamnia in 90 AD, convened in part to counteract the Christain movement by altering the Hebrew books and cannon.
GG on 13 May 2009 at 12:24 pm #
1) It does seem, from our posts here, that the Bible itself – or especially, John 6? – does not seem obviously or irrefutably literal, physical, in its presentation of a passover or Eucharist. (If it presents a passover or eucharist at all? A per Eric’s point earlier, on its timing).
2) So that the very, literal Catholic understanding of the host – that it changes into a piece of literal, actual, human flesh, with veins and capillaries and so forth … would see rather gross and false to the Bible itself. Which spoke for example of the host being a “remembrance” and so forth.
3) However, what about the somewhat less literal nature, of the somewhat more sophisticated Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation? This doctrine to be sure, seems to insist that John 6 is a passover/Eucharist; and that the bread is Jesus’ “body.” However, transubstantiation, is somewhat less literal than our second point here; it says that the host does not visibly, physically change into actual flesh. But only changes in its (rather Platonic?) essence, or “Substance.”
And that substance is invisible. Which means that the host has undergone a rather subtle change; one that is even invisible. And you might even say, rather spiritual. The bread has an invisible spiritual “substance” in it, you could say.
4) So that in the end, the “Catholic” doctrine of transubstantiation (which was at times adopted by various Protestants too) comes rather close to the (today predominant Protestant) idea, of a purely symbolic – or at least, “spiritual,” presence.
5) So: could we almost reconcile the two different positions, Catholic and Protestant? By saying that God’s “spirit,” the spirit of his body, is found in the host?
6) In the name of … reconciliation? Ecumenism? A unified body of Christ?
C Michael Patton on 13 May 2009 at 12:33 pm #
Joe, nice. But I seriously doubt that a Catholic would be willing to give so much ground to say that they are really holding to a spiritaul real presence.
Kara Kittle on 13 May 2009 at 12:41 pm #
Eric,
I will take your expertise on the subject any time regarding Judaism.
Joe on 13 May 2009 at 12:47 pm #
Can Catholics and Protestants be reconciled, on the matter of the Eucharist/communion?
I’ve actually heard some of the more intellectual Catholic priests, try to finesse the difference between Catholicism’s “Real Presence” in “Substance” – by saying that God is really, “Substantially” there.
Seems a little sly. But? Then when we look at “substance” to be sure, it is of courses invisible; like a spirit.
So it might in fact be possible to reconcile the two. It’s commonly being tried these days, by some priests.
Might be hard to make it stick. But it might be worth a try.
EricW on 13 May 2009 at 1:01 pm #
Joe and GG:
But even though the Catholics and the Protestants might come to basic agreement on the “what” of the Eucharist, they would still be forbidden/prohibited from partaking of the same Eucharist.
(KK: I am no expert on Judaism – as they say, ask two Jews and you get three opinions! – but thanks for the kind words. FWIW re: Judaism, there is a wonderful film called USHPIZIN about a Hasidic couple and the trials they undergo at Sukkoth due to two unexpected visitors from the husband’s past. The husband and wife in the movie are an actual Hasidic husband and wife in real life, and it’s filmed in Mea(h) Shearim, the ultra-Orthodox Jewish section of Jerusalem. You can Netflix it; in fact, if you have Netflix, you can watch it instanly on your PC or TV. A friend and I watched it on the plane flight back from Jerusalem last month. Very inspiring.)
Truth Unites... and Divides on 13 May 2009 at 1:02 pm #
Joe: “Can Catholics and Protestants be reconciled, on the matter of the Eucharist/communion?”
Well, the Catholics that I know regard the Real Presence in the Elements of the Eucharist as a 1st-order, non-negotiable doctrine. If Protestants want to be genuinely reconciled to Catholics on this matter, then Protestants must stipulate and believe in the Real Presence as well.
Kara Kittle on 13 May 2009 at 1:21 pm #
EricW,
I saw that. Good movie. Wasn’t it centered also on their inability to have children to which she felt shame in because somehow her tradition dictated that for her to be proper she had to have children?
I also saw others because we have Shalom TV on demand. I watch it sometimes and enjoy it.
EricW on 13 May 2009 at 1:49 pm #
Yep, that’s the movie.
GG on 13 May 2009 at 1:54 pm #
Erik W.
1) To be sure, though the “what” of the Eucharistic and Protestant communions might be reconciled, there is a remaining problem.
2) The problem – as you hinted – is the political or institutional side of the Eucharist. That is, the Church insists that anyone who takes communion in its churches, must be obedient to the Church, and Pope. Which would rule out any Protestant.
However, just as it is not that hard to fix the “what,” there are ways to fix even this difference; and even reconcile it all to Judaism too.
Look for that; even in the near future. Though not from a Pope, or any conventional religious leader. Obviously; since doctrinal convention emphasizes differences; and constantly militates against unity.
Read some of the more liberal/intellectual literature; which since it is liberal, and intellectual, can easily get past many minor differences.
But also watch for a unifying figure, or doctrine. That comes to unite “all.”
Truth Unites... and Divides on 13 May 2009 at 2:17 pm #
Interestingly, there are some Catholics who take Holy Communion without believing in the Real Presence.
cheryl u on 13 May 2009 at 2:54 pm #
GG,
I am curious as to who or what you think this may be: “But also watch for a unifying figure, or doctrine. That comes to unite “all.”
And do you think this would be a good thing or a negative thing?
D.Williams on 13 May 2009 at 11:18 pm #
Eric:
“Then what does the “this” refer to? Are you saying that Jesus is saying, “This body is my body”????”
“Mt 17:5 This (masc) is My beloved Son(masc)”
Are you saying God was saying “My Son is my Son”?
Rom. 11:27 “THIS(fem) IS MY COVENANT(fem).
Are you saying God is saying “My covenant is my covenant”?
1John 1:5 “This(fem) is the message(fem)”
By my count there is something around 55 case of someone saying “this is the xxxx” in the New Testament. I can find only one where the “this” refers to the noun and the cases do not agree:
Acts 8:10 οὗτός ἐστιν ἡ δύναμις τοῦ θεοῦ
But in this case, the “this” refers to a person as in “this man”, and in Greek the gender of the person overrides the gender of the strict grammar.
As to your quote that “a substantive, once used, may be recalled”, there is no substantive in Jesus’ words about the bread. That’s the the problem with your argument.
1 Corinthians 11:24 changes nothing, because Paul is quoting Jesus, not making his own statement about the bread.
Even if he hadn’t been, you haven’t convinced me that the “this is …” construction would usually not agree, except when the “this” refers to another antecedent, rather than the thing immediately referred to. (Such as 1Jn 4:10 “This(neut) is love(fem)… that he sent his Son”. The “this” here clearly refers to the stanza coming after. ) although even this isn’t consistent, because we have 1Jn 5:14 “This(fem) is the confidence(fem) which we have before Him, that…”. It seems to me that what naturally rolls off the Greek tongue is case that agrees.
But you seem to be arguing that it isn’t even normal for the “this” to agree with the “is xxx” by saying:
“then the “this” must mean something OTHER THAN the bread He’s holding.”
.. when I see no basis for that argument at all.
“This could very well mean that the Passover meal was now about HIM, and no longer about the Exodus from Egypt.”
So now you’ve gone beyond even Zwingli that the bread isn’t even meant to signify his body, but rather the situation in general is meant to signify his body? Come now.
He gave them bread and said THIS is my body. AND THEN he gave them wine saying THIS is my blood. He didn’t give them bread and wine and THEN say “this is my body and blood”.
Paul says 1Cor. 10:16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?
He doesn’t say “is not the cup and bread a sharing in the passover meal”.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 14 May 2009 at 12:33 am #
“the bulk of recent research on the Real Presence supports two hypotheses. First, there has been some real decline in the belief of Catholics in the Real Presence.
More recent research shows that a majority of Catholics, including young Catholics, still agree with the church’s teaching that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ.”
From here.
D.Williams on 14 May 2009 at 1:41 am #
Minor correction, 1Jn 4:10 says “IN this is love”, so you wouldn’t even be able to cite this as really equivilent. When John says 2John 6 καὶ αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ ἀγάπη, the cases agree again.
EricW on 14 May 2009 at 6:34 am #
D. Williams:
Thanks for your response. I guess I’ll now have to do some word searching re: “This (or that) estin xxx” to see if Winter’s statement is valid or a stretch. I don’t know if the DTS library has his article on file, or when I’d be able to get there to read it.
But why isn’t arton in 11:23 the likely antecent for the “touto” in 11:24? It’s what he has broken, it’s what he’s holding in his hands, it’s what he’s giving to them when he says, “This….”
And artos/arton is indeed the substantive in 11:23-24 where Paul relates what Jesus did on the night in which He was betrayed. Why do you say it’s not? Unless I misunderstand Hadley, by substantive he means a noun or something functioning as a noun.
John 1:8 gives a similar example (with the exception of the not/ouk): ouk ên ekeinos (masc.) to fôs (neut). Could John not have written ekeinos ên to fôs, which would have been an example of ekeinos correctly referring to the antecedent Iôannês in 1:6, and also correctly not agreeing in gender with fôs?
It seems to me, even based on your examples, that when the demonstrative only refers forward to something, then it would agree in gender and number with the word after the equative verb. But if there is an antecedent, and it refers to that antecedent, then it would usually agree in gender and number with the antecedent, and not the word after the equative verb if that word and the antecedent didn’t agree in gender and number.
Maybe declarative statements have their own syntax.
Michael L on 14 May 2009 at 2:34 pm #
CMP,
Great post
I did notice the comments took a bit of a side turn into linguistics et al. but I’ll answer just the four questions:
Do you take Christ’s words literally when he said “This is my body” (toute estin to soma mou)?
I used to. As an ex-RC I was brought up that way. I’m little more moderate lately, but in essence, yes. I’ve been studying what Luther said on the topic and am perhaps more starting to lean his way.
If so, since the verb “is” (estin) is in the present tense, do you believe that it was his body at the time of the original Lord’s supper?
Yes. Be it purely physical as per the hard-core transubstantiation or more “in, with and under”, I’m not quite as clear (yet).
If not, why are you at liberty to take it non-literally here, but insist that it is literal otherwise? In other words, how could not be literal here, but be literal after Christ’s death?
Since I answered yes to the previous one, it doesn’t apply.
If so, don’t you think this is a violation of Chalcedon?
Not necessarily. I think Chalcedon was a valiant effort, yet human. And human efforts in describing the Trinity or in this particular case the hypostatic union, will always be flawed. I think Chalcedon poses a myriad of other challenges to other topics that we adhere to and believe in. For a longer response to this question, I posted it with the original article on Catholics and Chalcedon found here
Hope this can be helpful.
In Him
Mick
D.Williams on 14 May 2009 at 7:08 pm #
“But why isn’t arton in 11:23 the likely antecent for the “touto” in 11:24?”
1) Because its a quotation. And one that Paul may well have heard hundreds of times at church. One that has become liturgical, and that he is not going to mess with.
2) Because “body” is the most immediate reference, and what the Greek mind would be most used to agreeing with.
“And artos/arton is indeed the substantive in 11:23-24 where Paul relates what Jesus did on the night in which He was betrayed. Why do you say it’s not?”
Because Paul wasn’t present on the night he was betrayed and didn’t say the word “bread”.
If I point to an apple and say “take this to school”, its going to be neuter. Otherwise am I going to agree case with fruit (masculine I think) or with apple (neuter)? That’s why my initial argument in this thread was neuter is the default for unstated inanimate objects.
“John 1:8 gives a similar example (with the exception of the not/ouk): ouk ên ekeinos (masc.) to fôs (neut). Could John not have written ekeinos ên to fôs, which would have been an example of ekeinos correctly referring to the antecedent Iôannês in 1:6, and also correctly not agreeing in gender with fôs?”
I’m not sure if I understand what you’re saying. When the antecedent is a person, the rules become basically like English – you always use masculine and feminine. This would be the case whether or not “John” is explicitely mentioned in the context as the antecedent. You don’t need an antecedent as an excuse to use gender with people.
“But if there is an antecedent, and it refers to that antecedent, then it would usually agree in gender and number with the antecedent, and not the word after the equative verb if that word and the antecedent didn’t agree in gender and number.”
Hmm… maybe if you wanted to wrap up a previous abstraction into a neuter, like..Heb. 10:20 … τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ, or Is. 27:9 τοῦτό ἐστιν ἡ εὐλογία αὐτοῦ. But I can’t find any other case of it, even in the LXX, at least with that exact form. I’d be surprised if there was a simple case of “this is a blah”, where blah is some kind of object and speaker is trying to indicate what the object is he is holding. But I’m willing to hear the evidence if it exists.
EricW on 14 May 2009 at 7:27 pm #
D.W. wrote:
So let’s forget Paul’s quote of a liturgical formula. Let’s look at the Gospels, recorded or remembered by those who were likely there:
Matthew 26:26 εσθιοντων δε αυτων λαβων ο ιησους αρτον (arton) και ευλογησας εκλασεν και δους τοις μαθηταις ειπεν, λαβετε φαγετε, τουτο (touto) εστιν το σωμα μου.
And while they were eating, Jesus took bread (arton) and said the blessing and broke it and gave it to his disciples, and said: Take, eat, this (touto) is my body.
Mark 14:22 και εσθιοντων αυτων λαβων αρτον (arton) ευλογησας εκλασεν και εδωκεν αυτοις και ειπεν, λαβετε, τουτο (touto) εστιν το σωμα μου.
And while they were eating, he took bread (arton) and said the blessing and broke it and gave it to them and said: Take, this (touto) is my body.
Why does touto not have arton as its antecedent and its referent?
(I still plan on doing my word/syntax searches.)
Perry Robinson on 15 May 2009 at 12:14 pm #
CMP,
I am not sure why you are asking this question when plenty of Catholic theologians have discussed it. Why not engage their answers?
Second, the Orthodox don’t think Christ is substantially present since they don’t think the concept of substance is appropriate in the first place. Persons aren’t substances in the primary use of that term as individual.
Third, when the Reformed speak of a “spiritual presence” what they do not mean is that the body of Christ is present via a spiritual power or mode IN the elements. That would be an Anglican or say Lutheran gloss. So for the Reformed there is no real presence in terms of the body being in the elements themselves.
What they mean is that the presence is tropic, namely that the virtues or effects of Christ’s power are conveyed through the vehicle of faith to the recipient in the elements. But those things are not strictly speaking the actual body of Christ present in the elements. The Reformed view then has elements of a figurative interpretation as well as aspects of the Lutheran view in so far as a genuine power is conveyed through the elements. Ronald Wallace’, Calvin’s Doctrine of the Word and Sacrament, is one of the better works on the topic
Perry Robinson on 15 May 2009 at 12:16 pm #
Cmp, (cont.)
As far as Chalcedon, first I’d make a friendly suggestion that people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. The Reformed view of Christ in the person of the mediator as the product and result of the “two hypostases” as the 2nd Helvetic Confesison states coming together is explicitly Nestorian. (See the official Latin text.) As is Calvin’s statement in Institutes Bk 2, chap. 14, sec 5,
“Now the old writers defined ‘hypostatic union’ as that which constitutes one person out of two natures.”
Or again,
“For although the boundless essence of the Word was united with human nature into one person, we have no idea of any enclosing.” Inst. 2.13.4.
This gross mistake by Calvin and taken up by almost all of the Reformed writers with perhaps the exception of Jerome Zanchi, is due to a corrupt Latin translation of John of Damascus’, On the Orthodox Faith. Calvin’s view that the hypostasis is the composite product and hence the single human-divine subject is directly contradictory to Chalcedon. For Chalcedon states that Christ is IN, not OF the two natures. Calvin’s understanding of the ancient writers is factually in error.
Further, it betrays a superficial understanding of Nestorianism to gloss it as grossly presenting two separate persons, since Nestorius clearly affirmed a single prosopa or subject. The dispute between Cyril and Nestorius turned on the nature of the single subject, and not on whether there was a single subject. For Nestorius, he took it to be the result or product of two natures coming together by an act of will, with the divine subjecting the human through a predestinating and determining act of will. So for Nestorius, there was really only one activity in Christ, that of the composite divine-human person. John Romanides is quite clear when he writes, “When the Nestorians stated that there is in Christ one energy and one will, they did not hold that the created nature and created will in Christ were abolished. They one energy and will of the Nestorians relates to the person of the union in Christ of the two natures, which is the result of the union of two persons and hypostaseis.” An Outline of Orthodox Patristic Dogmatics, 2004, p. 71
Perry Robinson on 15 May 2009 at 12:30 pm #
CMP,
Chalcedon fully affirms that Christ is a divine person, whereas the Reformed indicate that he is a human-divine person following Calvin in the incarnation. This is all well documented in Muller’s, Christ and the Decree. “The person of the mediator is, moreover, anointed to a unified work of obedience and redemption in which the two natures conjoin, neither the divine nature nor the human nature alone constituting the mediatoris persona or the mediatoris officium for only the one who occupies a middle position between God and man can fulfill the divine-human work of salvation: in the mediatoris officio God and man come together in harmony. In the eternal plan of God, the mediator appears as the one ordained by the divine will to effect a salvation otherwise impossible. Calvin explicitly predicates the historical person of the God-man and the office of mediation on the decree…Here the focus of the act of mediation is the divine-human person rather than the flesh assumed by the divine person.” pp. 31-33
This is why Christ’s sacrifice for Calvin is not valuable because it is performed by a divine person, but because God so willed it to be valuable.
“In discerning Christ’s merit, we do not consider the beginning of merit to be in him, but we go back to God’s ordinance as the first cause. For God solely of his own good pleasure appointed him mediator to obtain salvation for us.” Inst. 2, 12, 1, Cited by Muller, p. 36.
Consequently for Calvin, the divine subordinates the human or created elements in the eucharist so that language of presence is tropic and instrumental, just the same as Nestorius’s view of the eucharist. That is to say, the composite divine-human person that resulted from the union of the two natures cannot descend on the altar to be in the elements of the bread and wine because that would imply a separation of the produced persona. So, the eucharist and other sacraments are instruments of divine will which convey divine power and produce created effects in the soul. This is why Calvin objects to Rome’s doctrine of Transubstantiation. Consequently, it is the Reformed understanding of the eucharist that is inconsistent with Chalcedon, because the Reformed advocate a non-Chalcedonian Christology in the first place.
Perry Robinson on 15 May 2009 at 12:35 pm #
CMP,
In your other post that you linked, in reference to Nestorianism you speak of Christ not being able to be divided into two separate consciousnesses, but this seems wrong. For consciousness or intellect is not a person, for Christ, contra Apollinarianism has a human intellect.(See Morris, The Logic of God Incarnate.) On Chalcedonian Christology Christ still has two intellects or consciousnesses.
Chalcedon doesn’t deny but rather affirms that the energies of the human nature are in fact transferred through the divine hypostasis to the human nature. This is clearly taught by Cyril. The problem is that you are thinking of attributions or attributes as properties of an essence so that the transfer of attributes would imply a transfer of the essence. Chalcedon only precludes the mixing or replacements of essences, but it fully affirms that the divine energies of glory, immortality, etc. are in fact transferred to the humanity of Christ and make it deified. If not, Jesus was not transfigured with the divine glory and his humanity would not be immortal after the resurrection. And not that the transfiguration is long prior to the resurrection.
The Reformed unfortunately reinterpret the communicatio idiomata to be a “figure of speech” as Calvin says or a way of speaking without any real predication as a consequence of the mistaken view of Christ as a divine-human person. The communication by Chalcedonian lights includes a transferral of divine properties like immortality. If it doesn’t, then again, Christ isn’t glorified with divine glory and immortality. There is no sharing of the divine glory with humanity, but a created substitute, contrary to Scripture. (You hinted at this elsewhere.) The fact that the Reformed reinterpret and dissent from Chalcedon at this point is well documented by Muller, McCormack and other Reformed scholars.
Nor will an appeal to the extra Calvinisticum help here since it is predicated on the confusion regarding the hypostatic union so that the Reformed speak of the divine person prior to the incarnation and the person of the mediator after the union as a divine-human person. This was Beza’s distinction between totus and totum. (See Jilla Raitt’s The Colloquy of Montbeliard.)
Perry Robinson on 15 May 2009 at 12:38 pm #
CMP,
Lastly, and hopefully you wil lindulge me since it is impossible to clarify the heart of the disagreement in any way more brief.
As for humanity not being able to being more than one place at a time, that is strictly speaking false. For the human soul is for example present to every part of the body, without being circumscribed by any part of the body at the same time. To be in more that one place at a time is not co-extensive with omnipresence. Something can be in more than one place at a single moment and not be omnipresent.
As to the definition of transubstantiation, you seem to be using substance in terms of a stuff or an essence, but this is not its primary usage. Rather it is used to denote an individual thing, which is greater than any of or the sum total of its parts including its form or essence. So for Aquinas, Boethius, et al, a human being is a substance since a human person is more than the body and the soul. Consequently, Transubstantation seems to posit not the replacement of one essence with another, but with one individual thing with another. I grant that this is still problematic (I of course don’t’ adhere to it), but your gloss seems to be off. The idea is that the individual substance or thing is no longer the created elements as an individual thing, even though it possesses created properties, but the individual thing is the body and blood of Christ.
Michael on 15 May 2009 at 1:57 pm #
The
Kara Kittle on 15 May 2009 at 2:09 pm #
Why don’t we believe simply what the Bible has to say on the subject?
Jesus said “This is my body and this is my blood”. If the disciples at that time believed it to be cannibalism it would have been forbidden or not kosher to them because that was a big no-no if indeed the properties made them natural flesh and blood.
So I am inclined to believe the bread was indicative of His broken body and the blood that was shed. It implies not just symbolically the elements, but the act itself, brokeness and shed. Because today we have a baker who makes the bread and it is broken but not holy because the baker cannot do that act of becoming broken. The winemakers today are not holy because they cannot redeem mankind. So I think it is not so much the nature of the bread and wine, it’s the single redemptive act that can only come through the broken body and shed blood of Jesus.
D.Williams on 16 May 2009 at 7:44 am #
“Why does touto not have arton as its antecedent and its referent?”
Again, Jesus didn’t say the word “bread”, so it can’t be a referent.
And even if he had, the predicate nominative is what the case generally agrees with. The cases where it doesn’t seem to be exceptional. I’ll try and ask a native Greek speaker on Tuesday and report back if I get any insight, if you are interested.
Kara Kittle on 16 May 2009 at 8:20 am #
D.Williams
When He said “I am the Bread of life which comes down from heaven” it is a marked reference as the papa of the table still performs this act at the seder meal today.
EricW on 16 May 2009 at 8:56 am #
D. Williams:
I’m not very good with searches in Logos, but I couldn’t find anything that identically matched the syntax of the words of institution other than those verses – i.e., demonstrative pronoun => eimi => article => noun, allowing for intervening words in some instances and sometimes restricting the demonstrative to a neuter. IIRC, most of the demonstratives seemed to point forward, and there was no antecedent noun. I checked the NT and the LXX/Apocrypha; I can’t seem to do a graphical query of Philo or Josephus or the Apostolic Fathers, even though they are morphologically tagged; maybe I’d have to do a regular query, not a graphical one.
Hopefully I’ll be able to find Winter’s book to read without having to do a blind buy:
http://www.amazon.com/After-Paul-Left-Corinth-Influence/dp/0802848982
and see how he argues for “touto” and “arton.”
I may pose the question on B-Greek sometime soon. Thanks for your engagement with me on it.
Is your affiliation Catholic? Orthodox? Lutheran? Anglican? I.e., do you hold to Real Presence and/or Transubstantiation?
EricW on 16 May 2009 at 9:01 am #
P.S. I found Winter on Google Books:
Page 153 (and the next page, 154) is the passage Garland references:
http://books.google.com/books?id=sclZnr2SUIgC&pg=PP1&dq=winter+%22after+paul+left+corinth%22#PPA153,M1
Michael S on 16 May 2009 at 9:47 pm #
Just like the OT was a shadow of Christ to come, we look at the seder a prefiguring of Christ, who is the eternal Pascha(Passover). I can only speak to what I know within Orthodox worship, the structure of our liturgy has the elements of the Seder\Passover meal and their Christian agape meal. In an earlier post, someone quoted part of the anaphora of the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, which shows the beautiful weaving by the early Church of the Passover with the Gospel.
I believe that many Protestants are unable to properly engage in this thread due to the absence of the Mysteries (or what RCs would call sacraments) in their worship and theology. Praise in worship is good, a good sermon is want, but what Christ has given the Church most of all is the gift of Himself, “wherever two or three are gathered in my name,” and in the form of the Eucharist. How? This thread could continue indefinitely, and is beyond me, we must be comfortable leaving it a mystery. The EO way, don’t define unless you have to.
D.Williams on 17 May 2009 at 7:37 am #
Kara: not sure what your point is.
Eric: Is Winter arguing what you did?
It seems rather anachronistic to argue that the tradition was a particular word order and then Paul came along and rearranged it. Everybody seems to agree that Paul wrote prior to the Gospels, so if anything the Gospels came along and altered it. Either way, I don’t see any particular reason to think that one tradition is older than the other, or that Paul is responsible for any word order.
I can only see two other cases in the bible of outos ego(genetive) eimi. That is: Ex 3:15 τοῦτό μού ἐστιν ὄνομα αἰώνιον and Isaiah 42:8 τοῦτό μού ἐστιν τὸ ὄνομα. They also happen to be neuter touto.
and there doesn’t seem anything to support Winter here.
I’m Orthodox to answer your question.
EricW on 17 May 2009 at 9:32 am #
D. Williams:
Winter is more arguing for the meaning of Paul’s syntax and use of touto in 1 Cor 11:24. I can’t cut and paste the Google image, but it’s only two short pages if you want to read it at the link.
Thanks!
D.Williams on 18 May 2009 at 6:37 am #
I did read the link, but it didn’t seem the same as what you are arguing.
EricW on 18 May 2009 at 7:59 am #
D. Williams:
Winter isn’t arguing from what I’m arguing, but his point somewhat supports my conjecture.
I was suggesting (somewhat supported by Winter’s observation) that the use of touto in 1 Cor 11:24 instead of houtos (assuming the referent for the demonstrative was the artos/arton in 11:23) might support touto referring to something other than specifically and simply the bread. And since Paul sometimes uses sôma to mean the gathering of believers in this passage (1 Corinthians 10-12), it’s possible that touto combined with sôma in 11:24 might refer to something other or something more than the bread Jesus had just blessed and broken.
Even if touto is expected to agree grammatically with sôma, I’m not sure that means that Jesus here is saying, and only saying, that the bread and only the bread is his body.
A question: Does the Orthodox Church believe that the bread Jesus held at the last supper also became his body at that moment in the same way it’s held to do so during the Eucharist? I think the Roman Catholic Church teaches that it does, per some of the replies here or in the Chalcedon/Transubstantiation thread (of which this is sort of a continuation)?
Michael S on 18 May 2009 at 10:36 am #
Fr. Thomas Hopko, former Dean of St Vladimir’s seminary, has stated:
The Orthodox Church denies the doctrine that the Body and the Blood of the eucharist are merely intellectual or psychological symbols of Christ’s Body and Blood. If this doctrine were true, when the liturgy is celebrated and holy communion is given, the people would be called merely to think about Jesus and to commune with him “in their hearts.” In this way, the eucharist would be reduced to a simple memorial meal of the Lord’s last supper, and the union with God through its reception would come only on the level of thought or psychological recollection.
On the other hand, however, the Orthodox tradition does use the term “symbols” for the eucharistic gifts. It calls, the service a “mystery” and the sacrifice of the liturgy a “spiritual and bloodless sacrifice.” These terms are used by the holy fathers and the liturgy itself.
The Orthodox Church uses such expressions because in Orthodoxy what is real is not opposed to what is symbolical or mystical or spiritual. On the contrary! In the Orthodox view, all of reality — the world and man himself — is real to the extent that it is symbolical and mystical, to the extent that reality itself must reveal and manifest God to us. Thus, the eucharist in the Orthodox Church is understood to be the genuine Body and Blood of Christ precisely because bread and wine are the mysteries and symbols of God’s true and genuine presence and manifestation to us in Christ. Thus, by eating and drinking the bread and wine which are mystically consecrated by the Holy Spirit, we have genuine communion with God through Christ who is himself “the bread of life” (Jn 6:34, 41).
REF: (Jn 6:51) Thus, the bread of the eucharist is Christ’s flesh, and Christ’s flesh is the eucharistic bread. The two are brought together into one. The word “symbolical” in Orthodox terminology means exactly this: “to bring together into one.”
Thus we read the words of the Apostle Paul: ref (1 Cor 11:23-26).
The mystery of the holy eucharist defies analysis and explanation in purely rational and logical terms. For the eucharist — and Christ himself — is indeed a mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven which, as Jesus has told us, is “not of this world.” The eucharist — because it belongs to God’s Kingdom — is truly free from the earth-born “logic” of fallen humanity.
D.Williams on 19 May 2009 at 5:03 am #
Eric, I asked my Greek teacher about this. He said that the case should agree in outos estin type statements. I asked him about τοῦτό ἐστιν in a case like Heb 10:20, and he said that τοῦτό ἐστιν is an idiom, that means roughly “that is to say…”.
So it seems to me that all the cases would be covered by these proposed rules:
1. If it’s a person, use masc/fem. 2. Otherwise cases agree with the predicate except occasionally when τοῦτό ἐστιν is considered an idiom.
Re your question, I’m not aware of the Orthodox church having much to say on the topic. I don’t think this question has occurred to many people. Logic would seem to dicate though that if you are going to take it a certain way now, then it meant the same back then.
Helmut on 03 Jul 2009 at 10:28 pm #
I am a Christian since about 14 years, I used to be catholic, and I believed that the bread and the wine where His body, but after reading the Bible and understanding His will and the multiple vercicles where He says that He will not dwell in temples made by men, I changed to the Christian belief.
I think that Jesus was showing the disciples that this bread that He was broken in pieces and given to them, was an example of His one life given for His church, which at that moment they did not understand.
The same for His blood, it was drunk by them all from the same vase, in order to appropiate the justification that came of receiving his sacrifice in the Cross for their one sins, the justificatoin that comes only from His holy blood.
Helmut on 03 Jul 2009 at 10:42 pm #
The value of this Last Supper is out of our one minds, it is one of the most Holy thing that Jesus left for His Church. The communion between the multiple parts of His body should lead to the perfection of His will on earth.
It is a living force for each Christian, and we should be iluminated and transformed during this celebration.
Many revelations of His will can be taken place during the meditation and after been part of it. The sence of the high price that The Father paid for your lifes should be considered during this kingdom earthly manifestation.
I read a very wonderfull book about the value of the supper of the Lord, from Ana Mendez, “Eat my Flesh and drink my Blood” a wonderful view of this marvelous moment.
gil on 06 Jul 2009 at 10:40 pm #
here is a simple solution, after a Roman Catholic communion pump the stomachs of how many volunteers you can find. see if any of them have flesh and blood in them or just bread and wine.
geekborj on 08 Sep 2009 at 10:31 am #
Given that Christ can multiply bread and fish to feed thousands, stop a storm, drive demons out of people, heal the sick, make wine out of water, and many others, then why would a Christian not believe that he can change an ordinary bread and wine into his very own body and blood, irrelevant of his time of death on the cross?
Can’t someone notice the development of how “christians” diversified in NOT believing in the reality of Christ’s body and blood in the Eucharist.
The Passover is a perpetual ordinance and perfected in the Calvary with Christ as the Lamb. Hence, the “remembrance” is a participation of the Passover in the New Creation and Covenant with Christ as the Covenant and Lamb at the same time. The OT will give us an idea why there is such thing as “Covenant Theology.”
Last comment: The development of the paragraph seems to hint as if the Catholic Church (not just “Roman” or Western Rite) agreed with Luther and Zwingli. Before them, the Church Doctors and Church Ancient Fathers have believed and passed on that belief (Traditio) to be true and taught by Christ, believed by the Apostles.
EricW on 08 Sep 2009 at 11:33 am #
Given that Christ can multiply bread and fish to feed thousands, stop a storm, drive demons out of people, heal the sick, make wine out of water, and many others, then why would a Christian not believe that he can change an ordinary bread and wine into his very own body and blood, irrelevant of his time of death on the cross?
Why not believe this? Because the Last Supper’s context as a Passover Seder, as well as what Jesus did and said re: the bread and wine on that occasion (assuming we can determine this – Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11 don’t agree with each other on this), don’t support Him wanting the church and Christians to believe that such a change was or should be expected to happen.
Sure, He can do it. But the idea that Christians are supposed to believe that this is what happens to the bread and wine of communion is not supported by what the Scriptures teach that Jesus said and did.
dudley davis on 19 Sep 2009 at 8:09 pm #
I am a Presbyterian. I love the sacrament of the Lords Supper but the roman church teaching makes a balsphemy of it.
Dr. Loraine Boettner, in his classic book “Roman Catholicism”, and referring to the rc teaching of trnsubstantiation asks the reader to “Notice that throughout these verses occurs the statement ‘once for all’, which has in it the idea of completeness, or finality, and which precludes repetition. Christ’s work on the cross was perfect and decisive. It constituted one historic event, which need never be repeated, and which in fact cannot be repeated. The language is perfectly clear: ‘He offered one sacrifice for sins for ever’ (10:12). Paul says that ‘Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more’ (Romans 6:9); and the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews says that ‘By one offering he had perfected for ever them that are sanctified’ (10:14)…We are told that Christ has sat down as token that His work is finished.
I am a Presbyterian Protestant and was at one time a roman catholic. I now no longer believe that Christ descends from His Father in heavento be a further sacrifice upon Rome’s altars or on any other; for such sacrifice there is no need…. Thank God that we Protestants can look back to what our Lord did on Calvary and know that He completed the sacrifice for sins once for all, and that our salvation is not dependent on the decree of any priest or church. Any pretense at a continuous offering for sin is worse than vain, for it is a denial of the efficacy of the atoning sacrifice of Christ on Calvary for all that place their faith in Him alone.
In faith,
Dudley
dudley davis on 29 Oct 2009 at 9:50 pm #
I am an ex Roman catholic and now a Reformed Protestant. When I first left Roman Catholicism in 2006 I became an Episcopalian. My reason for leaving was the papacy of Benedict and the direction I believed the Roman catholic church was heading. I did believe in the Roman catholic teaching of transubstantiation and at first joined a high Episcopal church that also held that view. However I then began a study of the Reformation and the Council of Trent. My views on the Lords Supper gradually became Calvinistic and then more Zwiglian. I now believe the Lords supper is a memorial of Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary but I believe that the celebration of the supper is symbolic of his saving act and not actually a re enactment and sacrifice anew. I now no longer believe in the rc teaching of transubstantiation. I also began to ask the same questions Michael asked and it brought me to the conclusion that I was a Reformed Protestant in my beliefs on The Lords Supper and Baptism. It is one reason why I became a reformed Protestant in 2007.
Michael said “my question has only to do with those who hold to a Real Presence in body and blood (i.e. not a spiritual Real Presence).
It is also true as Michael said that “Most who believe in some form of Transubstanitation will defend this view by taking a very literal interpretation of Christ’s words during the Lord’s Supper:
Matthew 26:26-28 “While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.”
“This is my body.” These are the word that Luther etched onto the table in his famous meeting with Zwingli.
Indeed, it was these words that were used by the Council of Trent as a primary justification for a belief in Transubstantiation: “Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation” (Council of Trent [1551]: DS 1642; cf. Mt 26:26 ff.; Mk 14:22 ff.; Lk 22:19 ff.; 1 Cor 11:24 ff. Catechism of the Catholic Church 1376).”
The brief questions Michael had I also had and found that my answers denied that I could any longer believe in the teaching of transubstantiation. I at one time did believe and now have for those who believe that Christ’s words must be taken literally are these same questions followed by my answer now as a…
dudley davis on 29 Oct 2009 at 9:53 pm #
The brief questions Michael had I also had and found that my answers denied that I could any longer believe in the teaching of transubstantiation. I at one time did believe and now have for those who believe that Christ’s words must be taken literally are these same questions followed by my answer now as a Reformed Protestant.
Do you take Christ’s words literally when he said “This is my body” (toute estin to soma mou)? No not anymore
If so, since the verb “is” (estin) is in the present tense, do you believe that it was his body at the time of the original Lord’s supper? No
If not, why are you at liberty to take it non-literally here, but insist that it is literal otherwise? In other words, how could not be literal here, but be literal after Christ’s death?
If so, don’t you think this is a violation of Chalcedon? Yes I now do
Michael said ” I am most certain that thoughtful people have worked through this, I have just never heard an answer that seems to make any sense.” I now agree with Michael.
In faith,
Dudley
dudley davis on 29 Oct 2009 at 10:48 pm #
“Everybody interprets the Bible differently; how do I know what’s right?” Is Christianity a matter of opinion or a matter of fact?
This is from the Westminster Confession. Not everything in the Bible is perfectly clear to the casual reader. Scriptural interpretation must come from careful study and always in context and harmony with other passages of Scripture. We are never to interpret Scripture based on personal experience. For this reason, there are some things denominations interpret differently.
I believe as a Protestant thatt Salvation is the unconditional gift of God. How we define our religion does not determine our salvation. Yes, the Catholics have beliefs which are not Biblical. But so-called “evangelical”and Protestant denominations too.
However as a Reformed Protestant I believe in the “Sovereignity of God” who is infinite in his Knowlede and understanding. I began to also question how can any man define how Christ makes himself present in the Lords Supper.That is exactly what the Council of Trent attempted to do. How Christ makes himself present to us in His Supper is a mystery of the almighty and to base our belief on any thing which contradicts scripture or goes beyond it as does the roman catholic teaching of transubstantiation is arrogant and a denial in itself of our own finite understanding and Gods total sovereignity. To assume we can define what God who is infinite and complete in His knowledge is to commit the same sin Lucifer did. It is to assume we are as good as God himself.
A teaching like transubstantiation leads us from the truth and adds many superstitious rituals which lead away form the one truth of the Gospel, Christ alone saves us by His one time sacrifice on Calvary for all who are born again in Him.
Once a Catholic is born again, he would see the errors of Roman Catholicism, and come out from it, that’s what happened to me and many others.. You would know that you couldn’t remain under the pope’s authority, and be a born again Christian, most of them don’t know they need a saviour, and that they are lost – they follow the Roman Catholic teachings, which is the broad road. Reflecting back I never heard any true sound preaching of the Word of God as a Roman Catholic but I heard many fables including the doctrine of transubstantiation.
II Tim. 4: 1-5
” I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”