New TTP Elective: Science and the Bible: Need Your Help!

# on 16 May 2009
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31 Responses to “New TTP Elective: Science and the Bible: Need Your Help!”

1. rayner markley on 16 May 2009 at 6:07 pm #

   This looks like an ambitious project, but even so it does not cover all aspects of science and the Bible. It deals only with origins and early history of the earth. Besides those things, science and the Bible have their own views of natural phenomena (e.g., mold and mildew in Leviticus) and miracles (e.g., the Exodus, the resurrection). Perhaps a change of title.

   Additionally, I’m not sure what the phrase ‘relationship between science and the Bible’ means. Do they have a relationship? For example, week one is about the history of science. Does the Bible have a relationship to that? If so, the description doesn’t bring that out.

   Just trying to be helpful.
   RM

2. Douglas K. Adu-Boahen on 16 May 2009 at 6:41 pm #

   I’d be speaking for myself on this one, but the Summer would be perfectm since in September I’m starting my undergraduate degree.

3. Rich Shipe on 16 May 2009 at 9:07 pm #

   I’d like to start it in the summer and a July start would be perfect. I’ve completed only the intro course but plan to take the rest of the courses.

4. Kara Kittle on 16 May 2009 at 9:46 pm #

   rayner,
   mold and mildew? didn’t they have Clorox? Is bleach a miracle?

5. Chad Winters on 16 May 2009 at 9:50 pm #

   I’m in!!

6. rayner markley on 16 May 2009 at 10:55 pm #

   Leviticus 14:34 expresses belief in a supernatural cause for mildew. It was only in the 19th century that biologists firmly proved microorganisms to be the cause and disproved what was called ’spontaneous generation.’ The Bible follows local beliefs about what is natural and what is supernatural.

7. Ron Gay on 17 May 2009 at 6:01 am #

   Count me in for preferring the summer.

8. Kara Kittle on 17 May 2009 at 8:50 am #

   Rayner,
   I never read that into it before. Interesting. But if God caused it all to come about by supernatural means,then wouldn’t it also stand to reason it all follows that ultimately? Just asking because I never read that before. But bleach is the ultimate mold killer, and thou shalt not kill..as the commandments say…lol

9. Kara Kittle on 17 May 2009 at 6:55 pm #

   Rayner,
   How does leprous disease translate as mold and mildew? I would think there would not be much mold and mildew in a country as dry as Canaan. I still say bleach is a miracle from God, I don’t understand the chemical process but it works so that’s all that matters. LOL.

10. Matt Dowling on 17 May 2009 at 8:30 pm #

    I’d vote for this summer as well. =)

11. rayner markley on 17 May 2009 at 8:30 pm #

    Thank you, Kara. I also wouldn’t expect much mildew there, but maybe there was a rainy season. God tells the Israelites to expect it and to believe that He put it there. For us, on the other hand, the supernatural is the last place we would look to explain mildew. I have a feeling we are way off topic here, but this type of thing might be covered in a course so broadly titled as ‘Science and the Bible.’ Do you agree?

12. Joe on 17 May 2009 at 9:12 pm #

    I’m in for the summer too! The sooner the better!!!

13. Kara Kittle on 18 May 2009 at 7:01 am #

    rayner,
    as mold also creates penicillin I suppose it is ok to put it in there in a course called science and the Bible. LOL.

14. Doug Campbell on 18 May 2009 at 9:27 am #

    Summer would work well. Great idea for a class.

15. Jugulum on 18 May 2009 at 12:38 pm #

    Rayner,

    Yeah, that verse is appropriate to discuss in a Science & the Bible class. Just like the verses that say God causes the rain to fall on the just & unjust, or causes the grass to grow, or clothes the lilies of the field in splendor.

    My basic answer: “God caused it” does not contradict “It happened through natural processes”. God stands behind natural law!

    This gets into the relationship between God’s providential control, the natural world of order & law that he created, and the way that he “sustains all things”.

16. Kara Kittle on 18 May 2009 at 3:08 pm #

    I really have to know…is the earth flat and is the universe really geo-centric? I think I will take the class to see if there really are sea monsters or if I will drop off the edge of the world if I sail too far.

    That sounds like a lot of fun to discover. I mean I am still trying to figure if the moon landing actually happened or if it is made of cheese.

    CMP, is the moon made of cheese?

17. Chad Winters on 18 May 2009 at 3:47 pm #

    I agree with Jugulum, the point was God’s soveriegnty, not “magic mold”. The methods to remove the mold were clearly described as naturalistic and “scientific” not prayer and miraculous healing.

    Kara: I thought this was a great article showing through primary source documents that at least to Tomas Aquinas in the 1270s, the roundness of the Earth was not even in question. http://www.christiansincontext.org/2009/05/myth-of-dark-ages.html

18. Kyle Dillon on 18 May 2009 at 4:02 pm #

    One often-neglected subject that I would love to hear in a Science & Faith series is the relationship between Genesis 11 (the Tower of Babel) and the history of languages. For example, archaeology suggests that written language emerged around 3000 BC independently in three different locations: Egypt, Mesopotamia, and the Indus valley. But the Tower of Babel story probably dates to around 2500 BC, when ziggurats were being built in Sumeria. So exactly how does Babel fit into the history of languages, if there already existed a multiplicity of languages *before* Babel?

19. Samson on 18 May 2009 at 5:48 pm #

    Summer would be better for me.

20. rayner markley on 18 May 2009 at 7:20 pm #

    So God’s sovereignty produces a false explanation of cause and effect. Is that what happens in Genesis One also?

21. Jugulum on 18 May 2009 at 7:23 pm #

    My limited mind is unable to follow you in the connections/translations/interpretations you make, rayner.

22. Kara Kittle on 18 May 2009 at 7:34 pm #

    Perhaps Rayner has a spiritual understanding of mold and mildew or he is fascinated about it. Either way I suppose he could learn what he needs to know about it in the class.

23. rayner markley on 18 May 2009 at 9:16 pm #

    I’m not the one who suggested God’s sovereignty as an explanation for the mildew in Canaan. Sorry if I understood something.

24. Jugulum on 18 May 2009 at 9:21 pm #

    It was the “false explanation” part that threw me for a loop.

25. Bonnie Sue Jacobs on 18 May 2009 at 9:30 pm #

    Summer would be better for me since I am still trying to catch up with the last three courses I need for my degree in Theology conferred by the one and only-GREAT Michael Patton.

26. rayner markley on 18 May 2009 at 10:08 pm #

    Yes, Kara, I hope I could. My point has been that science and the Bible have many other tensions besides origins.

27. Jugulum on 18 May 2009 at 11:17 pm #

    Sorry, perhaps I should be more clear: I can’t tell where you saw a “false explanation of cause and effect” in what I said.

28. Joshua on 19 May 2009 at 9:07 am #

    Michael,

    I think summer would be perfect (at least for those individuals who go to school during the Fall; I for one simply wouldn’t have the time to do it once school began).

    Here would be the questions I would “want” answered from in a course like this:

    1) What do I do when I see science and the Bible conflict?

    2) What are pratical ways of showing or at least “leading” an individual (in this case it would probably be a Christian) to see that they are creating a dangerous false dilemna when they are piting science against God (and vice versa).

    3) What does ID “give me” as a Christian? As far as I’ve understood the position all it simlpy is, is a beefed of Paley’s arguement. It says,noting of a theistic God, but is simply an apologetic against naturalistic philosophy and presuppositions.

    4) Associated with ID; what are the defing attributes of “design”. In other words what is the critera for determining if something is designed or not?

    5) The relationship between miracles/supernatural and science and (this is one that I have recieved from one of my secular professors): “Why insert metaphysical elements (i.e. God) into explanations when there are naturalistic explanations that are better.” In other words (and this is the sort of illustration my prof gave), if my car doesn’t start this morning, my intial thought isn’t “an fairy or a gnome came and meddled with my car to cause it to not start. My first thought is to check the battery, gas, etc to see if there is a problem with it. I am not going to call my local wizard or sorceress to bring some potion or enchantation to fix my car, I am going to call a mechanic or someone who knows how to fix it.” Then he would go on to say, “why do Christians insert God (the metaphysical componet) where science can simply explain in a more pratical and tangible way?” In other words, the reason he is a naturalist is because “it just works, it produces results” (i.e. the mechanic has and will continue to fix my car, the wizard may or may not, but given my experience [or lack there of] with them it seems laughable to think that they could).

    Hopefully those questions made sense.

    I look forward to the class and I hope I will have to time to enroll and particpate in it.

    Thanks for being a blessing and making this avaliable to so many people.

    Your brother in Christ.

    -Josh

29. EricW on 19 May 2009 at 10:01 am #

    Just in time for your class (if it’s not a hoax):

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Missing-Link-Scientists-In-New-York-Unveil-Fossil-Of-Lemur-Monkey-Hailed-As-Mans-Earliest-Ancestor/Article/200905315284582?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15284582_Missing_Link%3A_Scientists_In_New_York_Unveil_Fossil_Of_Lemur_Monkey_Hailed_As_Mans_Earliest_Ancestor

    Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution
    Alex Watts, Sky News Online

    Scientists have unveiled a 47-million-year-old fossilised skeleton of a monkey hailed as the missing link in human evolution.

    This 95%-complete ‘lemur monkey’ is described as the “eighth wonder of the world”

    The search for a direct connection between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom has taken 200 years – but it was presented to the world today at a special news conference in New York.

    The discovery of the 95%-complete ‘lemur monkey’ – dubbed Ida – is described by experts as the “eighth wonder of the world”.

    They say its impact on the world of palaeontology will be “somewhat like an asteroid falling down to Earth”.

    Researchers say proof of this transitional species finally confirms Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution, and the then radical, outlandish ideas he came up with during his time aboard the Beagle.

    Sir David Attenborough said Darwin “would have been thrilled” to have seen the fossil – and says it tells us who we are and where we came from.

    “This little creature is going to show us our connection with the rest of the mammals. This is the one that connects us directly with them,” he said.

    “Now people can say ‘okay we are primates, show us the link’. The link they would have said up to now is missing – well it’s no longer missing.”

    A team of the world’s leading fossil experts, led by Professor Jorn Hurum, of Norway’s National History Museum, have been secretly researching the 1ft 9in-tall young female monkey for the past two years.

    And now it has been transported to New York under high security, and unveiled to the world during the bicentenary of Darwin’s birth.

    Later this month, it will be exhibited for one day only at the Natural History Museum in London before being returned to Oslo.

    Scientists say Ida – squashed to the thickness of a beer mat by the immense passage of time – is the most complete primate fossil ever found.

    With her human-like nails instead of claws, and opposable big toes, she is placed at the very root of human evolution when early primates first developed features that would eventually develop into our own.

    Another important discovery is the shape of the talus bone in her foot, which humans still have in their feet an incredible 70 million lifetimes later.

    Ida was unearthed by an amateur fossil-hunter some 25 years ago in Messel pit, an ancient crater lake near Frankfurt, Germany, famous for its fossils.

    She was cleaned and set in polyester resin – and incredibly, was hung on a mystery German collector’s wall for 20 years. (click link for entire article)

30. Kara Kittle on 19 May 2009 at 11:32 am #

    EricW,
    A lemur? In New York? I knew it…we all descend from animals at the Bronx Zoo. I have been to the Bronx…I have seen things….

31. Erin on 28 May 2009 at 9:32 am #

    Strongly prefer summer.

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