First of all, I am a Maronite Catholic (one of the eastern rites of the Roman Catholic Church), so I guess that makes me doubly damned in the eyes of most Calvinists – a Catholic AND a believer in free will!
However, that isn’t why I’m writing here…
I have always tried to be open-minded to what other Christians believe (if they are Trinitarian and hold to the Articles of the historic Creeds)…that used to include Calvinists. Then the insults from the Calvinists began, the horrid condemnations, the arrogance. The final straw came when a very kind and sweet man, a deacon in the Russian Orthodox church and my friend, was told by a Calvinist (who has a fairly extensive website from Canada) that his (my friend’s) wife and child were killed in a car wreck because they were not Calvinists. This was said in a chatroom and the room just went silent in shock. People were horrified at the audacity…and from then on we simply allowed no Calvinists ever. That is still my attitude in chatrooms and in life. They have been so horrid, I simply now reject them outright. Sad how hatred causes hatred.

Since Calvinists claim that “the world” in John 3:16 means “the elect” why don’t they try these on for size:

(2 Tim 4:10) “Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present elect”

Col 2:20 “Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the elect, why, as though living in the elect, are ye subject to” man-made-decrees

Col 2:8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the elect, and not after Christ.”

Ephesians 6:12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the elect-rulers of the darkness of this elect, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

2 Corinthians 7:10 “For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the elect worketh death.” How true that is!!!! For the elect of Calvinism never repent, instead saying “I’m elect! I’m once saved always saved!”

Very good blog. I agree that Calvinists say they subscribe to the doctrine of grace, but they don’t really seem to live it. Are we not all completely UNdeserving of Christ and His love and grace? and are we not all deserving of hell? I mean seriously.
I suppose you would say I’m a calvinist (I really, really REALLY hate using that term. Cause I don’t totally agree with Calvanism ALL the time…) and my church is Arminian. I love them and they love me. However there are two things that bug me to no end.
1. is that when I’ve tried to explain my belief they either a) get extremely defensive and mean or b) they never talk to me ever again. (Seriously, I still go to the same church and now they won’t even look at me.)
And 2. I am disturbed by the fact that people in my Arminain church (and maybe this happens else where. My church is Nazarene) are always saying “I/we follow John Weasley.” Aren’t we supposed to be following Jesus? Not men? I have never claimed to follow John Calvin. Because he’s a fallable(spelling?) MAN!
So I’m not so much disturbed by their doctrine as I am by the fact that they say they follow men and not God. :/ I mean, I still love them…
I like your blog, even if I disagree with a lot of things you’ve said. ha ha. BUt I very much liked this blog.
Sincerely,
Veronica

Kudos,

This posts was a breath of fresh air.

From one who leans heavily to the Arminian worldview I find it difficult to respect writers like Sproul who says that Arminians are “barely saved”, or J.I. Packer who calls all Arminians “Anti-Christians” and countless others such as Guy Waters and John Piper who call Arminians “Semi-Pelagians”.

It’s nice to read a Calvinist who blogs the grace they preach.

Dear Bro Patton and Friends in Christ,

I agree that LOVE of God that poured by the Holt Spirit in our hearts should reign in dealing the false doctrine and the heretics. If we can’t love them as a brothers and sisters let us love them as enemies – meaning let us still kind and compassionate to them. When they are hungry and thirsty let is feed them and give them water. Let us follow the example of Christ.

The Love of Christ in us cannot compromise with sinful acts and sinful principle of doctrines as described in 1 Cor 13:4-8. Open rebuke is better than secret love. There are still believers of Christ are still ignorance of the truth of salvation. Many erred in true Christian living. But let us remember that we can’t open and change the hearts of the sinner. Only God can do that. Our duties is to open our mouth to preach/teach the truth boldly without compromise, exalting Christ and bring more glories to His feet. It is what I did as local Missionary in our islands. I am a strong Calvinist preacher but I am sure I am balance and biblical and love of Mission work, preaching the gospel to the lost.

In Christ,

Bro. Ronald D. Jacutin, Sr.
P.O. Box 81802
8000 Davao City
Philippines

Does not the doctrine of total depravity teach that you, yes you, reading this comment, are wicked in heart, even now?

“The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.” (1 Timothy 1:15 ESV)

Doesn’t it teach that Arminians are also debased and wicked at heart, and we need to be patient with them?

“…the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth…” (2 Timothy 2:24-25 ESV)

(I love how that verse not only informs the discussion between Calvinists and Arminians, but it also itself lends itself toward Calvinism.)

Therefore, if you know that you are wicked and likely not to obey John 13:35, and your hearers are not as well, humble yourself.

“Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you…” (1 Peter 5:6 ESV)

John,

I fully agree with you, and I left plenty of room for the sort of discussion you are talking about. The trouble comes when we get all bent out of shape and take it personally that someone “refuses” to agree with our view. The heated and vigorous discussion in which this doesn’t happen can be very helpful, as you’ve noted, and I participate in these kinds of discussions on a regular basis. You’re right in saying there is a difference between discussing and fighting. My point is the same as that of CMP: let’s quit fighting and continue the discussion.

I stand by my remark that “fighting” amongst true believers IS good evidence of total depravity. That’s not to say the ones fighting aren’t saved, but rather that indwelling sin is obviously still at work. It’s at work in me, too, brother – though perhaps in different areas.

Blessings,
Derek

It is incorrect to stereotype and characterize all discussions about Calvinism and Arminianism as “fights”, and fights that are so bad that they are unChristian and depraved. There are many discussions of those two perspectives that are carried out in a fair and irenic, though vigorous and committed, manner. Most of the discussion of those viewpoints that happens on CMP’s blog is of that nature, and I find it useful for learning and understanding and formulating one’s own view.

regards,
#John

Rey,

I don’t think I’ve ever before read a response to something I’ve written in which I disagreed with every single word of the response. I’ve never experienced so much lack of common ground, not even in discussions with ultra-liberal Christians and atheists. But, for the record, I disagree with every single word you’ve written here (other than the parts where you quoted me, of course).

I didn’t remotely imply that Calvinists or Arminians are unregenerate – though all true believers were at one time.

Calvinists and Arminians aren’t the same thing. And I didn’t say they were both unregenerate, you did.

Rejecting Biblical doctrine, however it may be labeled, is not a legitimate means of glorifying God.

I recommend Curt Daniel’s 75 lectures on the history and theology of Calvinism – they will give you an accurate picture of what Calvinism is and isn’t – and also demonstrate how Calvinism differs from Arminianism. You can find them at monergism.com. I say this as respectfully as I can: educate yourself on these matters and then let’s talk again . . .

Derek

“This entire situation [disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians] is ample proof of total depravity.” (theoparadox)

If that’s so, then it is proof that both Calvinists and Arminians are unregenerate.

“The last time I checked, both Calvinists and classical Arminians hold to it.” (theoparadox)

But that’s not all there is. Calvinists and classical Arminians are the same thing, except the classical Arminians are better at PR. Their beliefs really boil down to the same thing. And, as you noted, both are unregenerate.

“Let’s go for common ground, and let’s work together for the glory of God.” (theoparadox)

Lets reject both Calvinism and classical Arminianism (which are the same thing with a slightly different public face) because that’s the only way to glorify God.