Hi Michael,

Love the website and your ministry in teaching theology. Only recently have been reading the blogs, and it is so good to see another believer, like myself, who is of Calvinism, but does not make it an ‘essential’ of Christian fellowship.

I have two adult daughters who live in another state, and I have encouraged them to remain in fellowship with a CoG (Anderson) because it not only focuses on the essentials, but in living out one’s faith. There may be a church in their area that is of my denomination (SBC), representing the classical view of Calvinism, but I believe the Lord has placed them in that local body for his purpose.

I just came across this article while researching on the neo-gnostic calvinism issue.

I am curious, have you remained where you were? Have all in leadership/teaching positions been able to maintain the civility you promoted?

If there were *growth* issues for any involved, were you able to resolve them and if so, how?

Thanks for the thought provoking article. I enjoyed reading through the other comments too!

[...] However, this is my opinion and I am curious as to your thoughts. via reclaimingthemind.org–Check the post out for an awesome comment discussion! [...]

I enjoyed your article, and your honest commitment to serving God no matter where you are put by him. I too am facing a dilema in searching for a new home church. I was raised as a full blown armenian, but have been in a 5 point Calvinist church now for 10 years. Some of my family members won’t even speak to me now becuse of this switch.

But now after 10 years, we are considering a switch to a mostly armenian church. (Southern Baptist who vary on calvinism depending on where you go, however this church holds on to #5 only) The problem for me with the reformed church is not the doctrine, but my pastor falls into the category of a hyper-calvinist at times and is very exclusive. (the idea that he is the only one in this part of the state teaching the gospel because he is teaching the 5 points, and to go somewhere else would be to turn your back on the gospel.

Also there is no programs for reaching out to the community, and basically no emotion in the worship segment. The lack of involvement and association has prompted us to look elsewhere, but the nagging question remains, how much good bible doctrine does one give up to get the other things? My current pastor would say those who dont subscribe to his way of preaching and believing worship a “Peanut God” a God who wants to save and can’t.

It is disturbing for me to go through everything I have went through to find good true doctrine (absent the hyper-calvinism the pastor throws in the mix) only to go back to the salvation “by chance” of the armenianism.

I will pray for Gods will in the matter and I know as well that God desires those who will worship him in Spirit and truth. Afterall its not doctrinal beliefs that save you but Christ alone.

Thank you again for your article.

I apologize for not posting the link originally as I intended my first post to be somewhat sarcastic and not completely serious.

Things intended to amuse or educate can easily wind up unjustly hurting others — compare Sproul’s “barely Christian”, which was intended educationally, but was actually … horrible.

If you search the internet for the various “discernment” (aka bash other Christians) blogs

I can’t accept that as evidence; there’s no search I can imagine that would return useful results of that nature.

In the meantime, there’s the serious problem that most of American Christianity right now is Arminian (wait — that’s not the problem!), and most of them don’t even realize that there’s even a question about it (that’s the problem). When I explain what I believe, the response is shock and disgust — I’m accused of insulting God, of wanting people to go to hell, of being smugly certain of my salvation… All (well, mostly) from people who were never acquainted with my beliefs, and couldn’t even find theirs in the Bible beyond a few prooftexts.

(This site isn’t like that! I like our commenters.)

I think this is because we are all just human and you can only take so much punishment, and so much name calling before you eventually give into the human inclination to fight back sinful as this may be. I feel it too.

So true.

-Wm

I apologize for not posting the link originally as I intended my first post to be somewhat sarcastic and not completely serious. As to the culture thing, maybe it’s just been my experience and maybe I just see persecution where I shouldn’t, but it just seems to me the most vocal on this issue as well as a number of others come from the Reformed side of things. If you search the internet for the various “discernment” (aka bash other Christians) blogs they seem to be Calvinists without fail. As further evidence or this I offer CMP’s own article asking Calvinists to just calm down. Although he does note correctly in his post the increasing militancy of Arminian’s in return. I think this is because we are all just human and you can only take so much punishment, and so much name calling before you eventually give into the human inclination to fight back sinful as this may be. I feel it too.

Maybe I’m reading more into this then I should, but in this case, given the last paragraph, somehow I don’t think so.

No, I think you’re reading way too much into that.

But thank you for the citation; it’s very helpful to have a first source, and I hereby retract the charge of “gossip” against you. You’re not a gossip if you can point to evidence; you may be overstating things (I’d say), but you’re definitely not a gossip.

Piper isn’t saying that Arminians are less Christian; he’s saying that we differ enough in very fundamental ways that there will always be some friction. That doesn’t place any blame on either side; the problem isn’t the wrongness or rightness of either side, but rather the friction caused by the differences.

Unfortunately, I don’t know what Piper videos you’ve watched, but I’d suspect that you’re viewing them with a jaundiced eye (i.e. looking for attacks).

I agree with you that “barely Christian” is an awful thing to say. Sproul should know better than that — he had a point to make, but he didn’t have to include such an insulting “almost-lie” (is that “barely a sin”?) in order to make it; he’ll answer to God, and he deserves your condemnation.

I admit that your personal experience is all too believable. I’ve seen that happen myself; unfortunately, I’ve seen it happen on both sides (not just from Calvinists). I don’t think either side is more charitable than the other… and I don’t see how citing it advances the argument in any way, since none of the bad treatment is based in any way on the principles in contention. It’s just bad treatment, and shows bad faith on the part of the specific people who do it. At most it shows a bad culture — but that has never been traced to the specific doctrines.

-Wm

I meant to say conservative Presbyterian seminary not church. Sorry.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/AskPastorJohn/ByTopic/45/2602_Should_I_date_someone_whose_theology_is_different/ is my source. Maybe I’m reading more into this then I should, but in this case, given the last paragraph, somehow I don’t think so. When I said that it seems that Piper thinks Arminians are only nominal Christians I was taking this from numerous videos I’ve seen of his and writings on his site where he discusses the seriousness of the Arminian error. His language and general way of approaching the issue seems to be that Arminianism is about the worst error you can make and still be in the fold. But again I could be reading too far into the stuff I read on his site.

As for the Sproul, MacArthur thing I apologize. I got the two mixed up and you are correct that it is Sproul who made that comment and not MacArthur. The complaint I had about MacArthur (which I thought was Sproul – sorry for the mix up) is the way he seems to misrepresent Arminian’s on the issue of Total Depravity and compares them to Semi-Pelagian’s. But this is minor compared to calling someone barely Christian.

As to the last point I have Arminian friends and used to have Calvinist friends. When I finally came down on the side of Arminianism while in undergrad my Calvinist friends stopped associating with me. One even called me a heretic. Furthermore while in law school I had a number of fellow students (who actually go to John Piper’s church) who stopped associating with me after finding out I was an Arminian and didn’t agree with Piper’s theology. And by stopped associating with me I mean stopped talking to me or inviting me to Bible studies and other Christian Lawyer events that were put on. I personally have nothing against associating with Calvinist brothers and sisters as I consider it a collateral issue, but I don’t get that from the other side at all. However I am honestly just going on personal experience here – maybe yours has been different.

Oh one more thing. In response to the thing about John MacArthur being an Arminian. There is a person I knew in undergrad who now attends a conservative Presbyterian church who recently posted a note on Facebook about why Reformed Baptists aren’t truly Reformed. This guy is one of the ones who doesn’t talk to me anymore.

Re posts 121 and 122:

Actually, it was R.C. Sproul who used the adjective “barely”:

“I agree with [J.I.] Packer and [O.R.] Johnston that Arminianism contains un-Christian elements in it and that their view of the relationship between faith and regeneration is fundamentally un-Christian. Is this error so egregious that it is fatal to salvation? People often ask if I believe Arminians are Christians? I usually answer, “Yes, barely.” They are Christians by what we call a felicitous inconsistency.”

The above statement by Sproul can be found in his book, Willing to Believe: The Controversy Over Free Will, published by Baker Book House. The statement is quoted by C. Stephen Evans, in his article, “Robots with Choice?”, published in Christianity Today, found at http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/1998/julaug/8b4034.html

As for MacArthur, at least one TULIP true believer argues that he is secretly an Arminian:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13575805/John-MacArthur-an-Arminian-in-calvinist-Clothing

Regards,
#John