But now after 10 years, we are considering a switch to a mostly armenian church. (Southern Baptist who vary on calvinism depending on where you go, however this church holds on to #5 only) The problem for me with the reformed church is not the doctrine, but my pastor falls into the category of a hyper-calvinist at times and is very exclusive. (the idea that he is the only one in this part of the state teaching the gospel because he is teaching the 5 points, and to go somewhere else would be to turn your back on the gospel.

Also there is no programs for reaching out to the community, and basically no emotion in the worship segment. The lack of involvement and association has prompted us to look elsewhere, but the nagging question remains, how much good bible doctrine does one give up to get the other things? My current pastor would say those who dont subscribe to his way of preaching and believing worship a “Peanut God” a God who wants to save and can’t.

It is disturbing for me to go through everything I have went through to find good true doctrine (absent the hyper-calvinism the pastor throws in the mix) only to go back to the salvation “by chance” of the armenianism.

I will pray for Gods will in the matter and I know as well that God desires those who will worship him in Spirit and truth. Afterall its not doctrinal beliefs that save you but Christ alone.

Thank you again for your article.

I apologize for not posting the link originally as I intended my first post to be somewhat sarcastic and not completely serious.

Things intended to amuse or educate can easily wind up unjustly hurting others — compare Sproul’s “barely Christian”, which was intended educationally, but was actually … horrible.

If you search the internet for the various “discernment” (aka bash other Christians) blogs

I can’t accept that as evidence; there’s no search I can imagine that would return useful results of that nature.

In the meantime, there’s the serious problem that most of American Christianity right now is Arminian (wait — that’s not the problem!), and most of them don’t even realize that there’s even a question about it (that’s the problem). When I explain what I believe, the response is shock and disgust — I’m accused of insulting God, of wanting people to go to hell, of being smugly certain of my salvation… All (well, mostly) from people who were never acquainted with my beliefs, and couldn’t even find theirs in the Bible beyond a few prooftexts.

(This site isn’t like that! I like our commenters.)

I think this is because we are all just human and you can only take so much punishment, and so much name calling before you eventually give into the human inclination to fight back sinful as this may be. I feel it too.

So true.

-Wm

Maybe I’m reading more into this then I should, but in this case, given the last paragraph, somehow I don’t think so.

No, I think you’re reading way too much into that.

But thank you for the citation; it’s very helpful to have a first source, and I hereby retract the charge of “gossip” against you. You’re not a gossip if you can point to evidence; you may be overstating things (I’d say), but you’re definitely not a gossip.

Piper isn’t saying that Arminians are less Christian; he’s saying that we differ enough in very fundamental ways that there will always be some friction. That doesn’t place any blame on either side; the problem isn’t the wrongness or rightness of either side, but rather the friction caused by the differences.

Unfortunately, I don’t know what Piper videos you’ve watched, but I’d suspect that you’re viewing them with a jaundiced eye (i.e. looking for attacks).

I agree with you that “barely Christian” is an awful thing to say. Sproul should know better than that — he had a point to make, but he didn’t have to include such an insulting “almost-lie” (is that “barely a sin”?) in order to make it; he’ll answer to God, and he deserves your condemnation.

I admit that your personal experience is all too believable. I’ve seen that happen myself; unfortunately, I’ve seen it happen on both sides (not just from Calvinists). I don’t think either side is more charitable than the other… and I don’t see how citing it advances the argument in any way, since none of the bad treatment is based in any way on the principles in contention. It’s just bad treatment, and shows bad faith on the part of the specific people who do it. At most it shows a bad culture — but that has never been traced to the specific doctrines.

-Wm

As for the Sproul, MacArthur thing I apologize. I got the two mixed up and you are correct that it is Sproul who made that comment and not MacArthur. The complaint I had about MacArthur (which I thought was Sproul – sorry for the mix up) is the way he seems to misrepresent Arminian’s on the issue of Total Depravity and compares them to Semi-Pelagian’s. But this is minor compared to calling someone barely Christian.

As to the last point I have Arminian friends and used to have Calvinist friends. When I finally came down on the side of Arminianism while in undergrad my Calvinist friends stopped associating with me. One even called me a heretic. Furthermore while in law school I had a number of fellow students (who actually go to John Piper’s church) who stopped associating with me after finding out I was an Arminian and didn’t agree with Piper’s theology. And by stopped associating with me I mean stopped talking to me or inviting me to Bible studies and other Christian Lawyer events that were put on. I personally have nothing against associating with Calvinist brothers and sisters as I consider it a collateral issue, but I don’t get that from the other side at all. However I am honestly just going on personal experience here – maybe yours has been different.

Oh one more thing. In response to the thing about John MacArthur being an Arminian. There is a person I knew in undergrad who now attends a conservative Presbyterian church who recently posted a note on Facebook about why Reformed Baptists aren’t truly Reformed. This guy is one of the ones who doesn’t talk to me anymore.

Actually, it was R.C. Sproul who used the adjective “barely”:

“I agree with [J.I.] Packer and [O.R.] Johnston that Arminianism contains un-Christian elements in it and that their view of the relationship between faith and regeneration is fundamentally un-Christian. Is this error so egregious that it is fatal to salvation? People often ask if I believe Arminians are Christians? I usually answer, “Yes, barely.” They are Christians by what we call a felicitous inconsistency.”

The above statement by Sproul can be found in his book, Willing to Believe: The Controversy Over Free Will, published by Baker Book House. The statement is quoted by C. Stephen Evans, in his article, “Robots with Choice?”, published in Christianity Today, found at http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/1998/julaug/8b4034.html

As for MacArthur, at least one TULIP true believer argues that he is secretly an Arminian:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13575805/John-MacArthur-an-Arminian-in-calvinist-Clothing

Regards,
#John

You know I heard a recent comment by John Piper indicating that Calvinist’s shouldn’t date (in his opinion) nominally Christian Arminian’s.

This is an AWFUL thing to accuse someone of, and your first reaction should have been to confirm it, NOT to gossip about it. It turns out it’s a completely false accusation. Piper says that Arminians are true Christians, and a Calvinist married to one is NOT unequally yoked; however, he also says that the process of seeking a mate includes considerations of doctrinal compatibility, and Calvinists and Arminians are doctrinally different.

Piper has some good things to say, but IMHO should be denounced in no uncertain terms for some of the extreme comments him and the likes of MacArthur (calling Arminian’s barely Christian) and others make when it comes to this issue.

Back this one up, or apologize for it. (I don’t know, maybe it’s true; but you’re not a reliable source, but a gossip-spreader.)

I also believe that Arminian’s aren’t allowed in leadership or to teach at Piper’s church.

Do you have some kind of problem with that? Piper’s church is explicitly Reformed Baptist. It would be pointless for them to ordain or hire someone who didn’t support their church’s distinctive doctrines.

It’s odd how often it seems Arminian’s are far more apt to call this a non-essential issue than Calvinists are.

I’ve seen a lot, and I haven’t seen this.

-Wm

This was intended sarcastically btw. Piper has some good things to say, but IMHO should be denounced in no uncertain terms for some of the extreme comments him and the likes of MacArthur (calling Arminian’s barely Christian) and others make when it comes to this issue. I also believe that Arminian’s aren’t allowed in leadership or to teach at Piper’s church. It’s odd how often it seems Arminian’s are far more apt to call this a non-essential issue than Calvinists are.

Chad