[...] recently posed a similar question in his thoughts & questions on the forgotten pulpit. As with many of Patton’s posts, I appreciate his balanced approach. And Patton certainly [...]

Wow, Warren! We sound so much alike!

I think you may have misread my view on [authentic!] preaching. My comment #19 relates to the ABUSE of preaching as per the “MOTIVATIONAL” / “ENTERTAINING” type that dominates the media rather than the Col 1:28-29 and 1 Cor. 2:1-5 type. I believe we share the same high view of AUTHENTIC preaching.

And yes, I do tend to “tweak” and lean toward “irony” in much of my comments on blogs – just to keep things interesting – for me!

Selah!

Allan (#75),

1. “you likely wouldn’t say that if you knew me;” Then why write on this blog or any other – until AFTER you get to “KNOW” all of us ??

Why do I write on this blog or any other? That’s a very good question, and one worth pondering even though your subsequent comments regarding teaching leave me unconvinced. I thank you for challenging me on this point.

I guess I comment because I enjoy theological banter. I mostly comment on another blog that concerns a denomination that has been virtually ruined, in my country, by heresy, apostasy and false teaching. I check in here from time to time because I’ve completed a couple of TTP courses and I have considerable respect for Michael Patton.

I don’t think that I have anything special to say, and I’m not naive enough to think that I will change anyone’s mind. I admit, however, to getting some enjoyment out of tweaking the noses of people who wear their presuppositions on their sleeve and who have difficulty applying logic (I’m speaking in general terms and am not pointing fingers at you). I try to keep my tone civil (and am normally successful), but sometimes adopt too much of a polemic tone.

I also find that participating in blogs helps me to sharpen my own thinking and better understand what I believe and why. I even try to apply what I’ve learned through TTP. Occasionally I’m also challenged to examine some of my own presuppositions and modify my thinking. I have no denominational allegiance, and am only concerned with orthodox Christianity (mostly with an evangelical flavour, but not entirely).

Now back to the issue of preaching and teaching. I suppose I really don’t know what your thesis is, or even if you are serious. If your thesis is that preaching has no special place within the church, then I don’t have much to discuss with you. Such a assertion would fly in face of most of church history and the great men upon whose shoulders we stand. I also think it reflects a wrong understanding of scripture. The importance and seriousness of preaching has been dealt with innumerable times by men much more Godly, educated, and wise than I, and I don’t have anything new to add.

My hunch, however, is that you enjoy tweaking my nose as well; which is fair ball in a forum such as this.

By the way, my comment quoted above was made in a rhetorical manner.

My apologies to everyone else for dragging this thread so far off topic.

Right on, Kara. I live on Paradise Island in the Bahamas – next door to Atlantis. They just married a couple in a fish tank!

Here’s a newspaper clipping description of the event: : Braving the chilly waters, Linzi donned her original wedding dress and Daniel a traditional black and white tuxedo as they literally took the plunge for a second time.
The event was not without its amusing moments as Linzi’s veil came off in her descent into the Ruins tank and then she had to learn how to elegantly walk underwater.”

I enjoyed this – and I have an extremely higg and holy view of marriage!

C.Barton,
I know people who dressed crazy for their wedding and did crazy things.

There are few things more thrilling than hearing a well-known and authoritative speaker at a seminar or in an evening of discourse and preaching. For such a person to sit on a stool in blue jeans would, to me, be anticlimactic (unless his field is pop psychology or speed dating, etc.) I mean, there are reasons for things, and sometimes things (such as pulpits) help us in our perception and attending value of what is happening.
Did anyone wear Dockers and golf shirts to their wedding?
It just seems “right” to formalize and specialize certain traditional things in order to keep the unique value of them to the Church.
I seem to remember what Jesus said about certain folks: we ought to show respect for those who sit in the seat of Biblical authority, even if their example is lousy!
But I am convinced of better things in this, the New Covenant in His blood.

Warren #74: I think it’s your wording that AMAZES me. For instance:

1. “you likely wouldn’t say that if you knew me;” Then why write on this blog or any other – until AFTER you get to “KNOW” all of us ??

2. “I would not sit under the teaching of someone who could not draw a clear distinction.” Then you must get to KNOW everyone you “sit under” BEFORE you do so. Who you DO “sit under” must be extremely limited.

Re, my thoughts on “preaching/teaching” in today’s pulpits, please see my previous note [#19]: # Selah on 13 Apr 2009 at 10:03 pm “I agree – to a point! I believe that it is the entertaining/motivational-type “preaching” without the element of “expository TEACHING” that has brought the church – generally speaking – to its spiritually diluted, biblically illiterate condition it is in today. Such “preaching” has ruined “the church.”

“it is rather unclear as to what you are getting at.” I hope this clear it up somewhat.

“Do you think that teaching is synonymous with preaching in the church? If you do, I suggest that the burden of proof lies with you. I don’t think a convincing case was made in #71.”

Well. let’s see “what Jesus would do” – or say”

Re. “SERMON” on the Mount: Matt 5.2: 2 “He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying, ..”

Re. Great Commission: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;”

And Paul: 28 “We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ.”

It appears that “PROCLAIMING” [preaching???] includes, if not is an expression or method of “teaching.” Why try to separate what God seems to have joined together?

You know, Warren, maybe you’re right: You would understand what I’m saying “if you knew me.”

Allan (#73), you likely wouldn’t say that if you knew me; although it is rather unclear as to what you are getting at. Do you think that teaching is synonymous with preaching in the church? If you do, I suggest that the burden of proof lies with you. I don’t think a convincing case was made in #71.

“With respect to the difference between teaching and preaching (or lack thereof as you are suggesting), I believe that, even in a secular context, most people have no trouble in understanding the clear difference between the two and readily recognize whether they are being taught or being preached to. To be very frank, I would not sit under the teaching of someone who could not draw a clear distinction.”

You have to be kidding!!!

Tony (#71),

Whether we like it or not, TV has changed how people learn and their ability to follow logical arguments (you probably have read “Amusing Ourselves to Death” by Neil Postman). I am biased in this discussion because I am the associate pastor of Adult Education in our church. I spend most of my time teaching in a classroom at Church or at our local Bible College. But I know that I can use a modified Socratic method to both communicate the content of the Bible and its authority. The Bible has authority regardless of my methods. Monologue, authoritative preaching is not the only way and not necessarily the best way to mature the saints in our world of lazy thinking people.

I know your comment was aimed at Michael, but I hope you will humour me. I wonder if simple-minded methods are needed to present God’s Word because people in the pews are lazy thinking, or if people are lazy-thinking because simple-minded methods are used to present God’s Word? Rather than inspiring people to reach for higher levels, are lazy preachers and teachers aiming their message at the lowest common denominator because it means less preparation and effort on their part? For that matter, how many preachers and teachers are not well educated themselves, and do not pursue a vigorous program of self improvement – not just in things theological – but in a range of academic disciplines?

With respect to the difference between teaching and preaching (or lack thereof as you are suggesting), I believe that, even in a secular context, most people have no trouble in understanding the clear difference between the two and readily recognize whether they are being taught or being preached to. To be very frank, I would not sit under the teaching of someone who could not draw a clear distinction.