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	<title>Comments on: The Coming Evangelical Collapse and the New Calvinism</title>
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		<title>By: M M</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/the-coming-evangelical-collapse-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-11780</link>
		<dc:creator>M M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=2084#comment-11780</guid>
		<description>Several years ago it was presumed that Christianity was being replaced by secularism in America. Only 39% of the population was &quot;churched&quot; or admitted to Christianity. After 9/11, the Times Magazine poll showed that 93% of Americans were Christians.
The question was obvious. Where are these people and what do they believe?
The answer may be..they are Calvinist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Several years ago it was presumed that Christianity was being replaced by secularism in America. Only 39% of the population was &#8220;churched&#8221; or admitted to Christianity. After 9/11, the Times Magazine poll showed that 93% of Americans were Christians.<br />
The question was obvious. Where are these people and what do they believe?<br />
The answer may be..they are Calvinist.</p>
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		<title>By: M. James Sawyer</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/the-coming-evangelical-collapse-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-11779</link>
		<dc:creator>M. James Sawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 22:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=2084#comment-11779</guid>
		<description>Don, this is not an either/or situation.  Both statements are different aspects of the same phenomenon.  Pietism is the theological/spiritual root of the Evangelical mentality that arose in the nineteenth century.  Revivalism became a key vehicle for its propagation.  Although I didn&#039;t mention it in the post the perfectionism of the holiness movement also played a factor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don, this is not an either/or situation.  Both statements are different aspects of the same phenomenon.  Pietism is the theological/spiritual root of the Evangelical mentality that arose in the nineteenth century.  Revivalism became a key vehicle for its propagation.  Although I didn&#8217;t mention it in the post the perfectionism of the holiness movement also played a factor.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/the-coming-evangelical-collapse-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-11778</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 04:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=2084#comment-11778</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Evangelicalism as it has manifested itself in America, and as a subculture has historically been a tradition that is “heavenly minded.” Its roots are sunk deeply into pietistic spirituality arising from a post-Reformation reaction to cold doctrinal orthodoxy within confessional Lutheranism in Germany, as opposed to what can legitimately be called a Reformed or Puritan spirituality/worldview.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;As such, evangelicalism has historically had a tremendous problem in being involved in “the world.” During the 19th century as revivalism was institutionalized in America, spiritual life was privatized and became unrelated to other areas of life. (What mattered was “my personal relationship with God/Jesus.” etc., gone were larger senses of responsibility to community and society.)&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t follow this point. It seems that you are saying first that Evangelicalism in America has deep roots in Pietism that caused it to distance itself from the world, then you say that as Revivalism is institutionalized, Evangelicalism distanced itself from the world.

Which is it? Or am I totally missing what you are saying?

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Evangelicalism as it has manifested itself in America, and as a subculture has historically been a tradition that is “heavenly minded.” Its roots are sunk deeply into pietistic spirituality arising from a post-Reformation reaction to cold doctrinal orthodoxy within confessional Lutheranism in Germany, as opposed to what can legitimately be called a Reformed or Puritan spirituality/worldview.</i></p>
<p><i>As such, evangelicalism has historically had a tremendous problem in being involved in “the world.” During the 19th century as revivalism was institutionalized in America, spiritual life was privatized and became unrelated to other areas of life. (What mattered was “my personal relationship with God/Jesus.” etc., gone were larger senses of responsibility to community and society.)</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t follow this point. It seems that you are saying first that Evangelicalism in America has deep roots in Pietism that caused it to distance itself from the world, then you say that as Revivalism is institutionalized, Evangelicalism distanced itself from the world.</p>
<p>Which is it? Or am I totally missing what you are saying?</p>
<p>Maranatha!<br />
Don Johnson<br />
Jer 33.3</p>
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		<title>By: flotsam &#38; jetsam (5.20.09) : EX vilis CATHEDRA</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/the-coming-evangelical-collapse-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-11777</link>
		<dc:creator>flotsam &#38; jetsam (5.20.09) : EX vilis CATHEDRA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 02:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=2084#comment-11777</guid>
		<description>[...] Fundamentalists and the Evangelicals are falling apart and blaming it on Calvinism.  JC really knows how to celebrate his quincetenary [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Fundamentalists and the Evangelicals are falling apart and blaming it on Calvinism.  JC really knows how to celebrate his quincetenary [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Powers</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/the-coming-evangelical-collapse-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-11776</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Powers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=2084#comment-11776</guid>
		<description>Nice article.  I my studies I have found many of the historical references that you mentioned.  I would like to comment on the modern Christian Evangelical or what may be my experience with them.  There is a lack of application with what they preach.  You can do some validation with the Barna group.  Statistically there is no difference between Christians and others, which is sad.  I was a deacon in a Southern Baptist church for awhile.  What I found was that many of the deacon&#039;s hearts were cold towards people.  Coming back from visitation, they had no compassion for the people they visited and looked down upon them as if they were some how less then themselves.   As I saw into the hearts of more of them I noticed that it was about the rules and not about people and impacting lives.  Many of the rules imposed had more to do with old cultural thinking than anything relating to God.  I think that the Jewish leadership done the same thing to God&#039;s people, burden them rules that caused them to miss God and His peace.

In more broader sense.  If Christians done something as simple as “show moderation in all things” their lives would be simple and much more peaceful.  The concept of virtue, the center between the extremes, would be counter culture and have a major impact of their lives and society.  Instead, they go to Dave Ramsey classes to learn this basic fundamental.  Then combine virtue with actually caring about people more than the rules, we would fulfill the second most important command - love.

Don&#039;t miss understand, “rules” or doctrine are important, but if you have to announce that your not changing doctrine in a deacon&#039;s meeting, then I would question if they could really tell if it was changed.

Then there are the other strange things that Christian leaders are doing; for example, tying salvation to how you vote or the doctrine of being Republican equals being Christian. There are many more examples of what seem to be disconnects with reality of what is happening in the world.  The average Christian seems only capable of parroting the pulpit and not engage in the debates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article.  I my studies I have found many of the historical references that you mentioned.  I would like to comment on the modern Christian Evangelical or what may be my experience with them.  There is a lack of application with what they preach.  You can do some validation with the Barna group.  Statistically there is no difference between Christians and others, which is sad.  I was a deacon in a Southern Baptist church for awhile.  What I found was that many of the deacon&#8217;s hearts were cold towards people.  Coming back from visitation, they had no compassion for the people they visited and looked down upon them as if they were some how less then themselves.   As I saw into the hearts of more of them I noticed that it was about the rules and not about people and impacting lives.  Many of the rules imposed had more to do with old cultural thinking than anything relating to God.  I think that the Jewish leadership done the same thing to God&#8217;s people, burden them rules that caused them to miss God and His peace.</p>
<p>In more broader sense.  If Christians done something as simple as “show moderation in all things” their lives would be simple and much more peaceful.  The concept of virtue, the center between the extremes, would be counter culture and have a major impact of their lives and society.  Instead, they go to Dave Ramsey classes to learn this basic fundamental.  Then combine virtue with actually caring about people more than the rules, we would fulfill the second most important command &#8211; love.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t miss understand, “rules” or doctrine are important, but if you have to announce that your not changing doctrine in a deacon&#8217;s meeting, then I would question if they could really tell if it was changed.</p>
<p>Then there are the other strange things that Christian leaders are doing; for example, tying salvation to how you vote or the doctrine of being Republican equals being Christian. There are many more examples of what seem to be disconnects with reality of what is happening in the world.  The average Christian seems only capable of parroting the pulpit and not engage in the debates.</p>
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		<title>By: Kara Kittle</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/the-coming-evangelical-collapse-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-11775</link>
		<dc:creator>Kara Kittle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=2084#comment-11775</guid>
		<description>Michael
I think there are nut job Christians in general.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael<br />
I think there are nut job Christians in general.</p>
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		<title>By: Fluency &#187; In Blogosphere</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/the-coming-evangelical-collapse-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-11774</link>
		<dc:creator>Fluency &#187; In Blogosphere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 07:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=2084#comment-11774</guid>
		<description>[...] A brief history of Evangelicalism and its current situation: collapse and Calvinism. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A brief history of Evangelicalism and its current situation: collapse and Calvinism. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/the-coming-evangelical-collapse-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-11773</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=2084#comment-11773</guid>
		<description>Ms. Kittle,
From what I have seen with your posts on this site you sure have a way with rhetoric.  I am not a Calvinist for numerous reasons, but the reasons for my not being a Calvinist do not hinge on how a some (not all) Calvinists have behaved at various points in history.  If I did this I would also be forced to give up Christianity all together given the way many Christians have acted throughout history.  I generally think it best to not judge a religious movement by the worst people claiming to be part of that movement.  There are some nut job Pentecostal&#039;s out there just like there are some nut job Calvinists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ms. Kittle,<br />
From what I have seen with your posts on this site you sure have a way with rhetoric.  I am not a Calvinist for numerous reasons, but the reasons for my not being a Calvinist do not hinge on how a some (not all) Calvinists have behaved at various points in history.  If I did this I would also be forced to give up Christianity all together given the way many Christians have acted throughout history.  I generally think it best to not judge a religious movement by the worst people claiming to be part of that movement.  There are some nut job Pentecostal&#8217;s out there just like there are some nut job Calvinists.</p>
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		<title>By: Kara Kittle</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/the-coming-evangelical-collapse-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-11772</link>
		<dc:creator>Kara Kittle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 13:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=2084#comment-11772</guid>
		<description>Interesting article but forgetting what the impetus was for such popularity of the &quot;feeling over truth&quot; movement, especially the Pentecostal &quot;emerging&quot; group. Historically what was happening that caused it to sweep the country?

Pentecostalism was not new, not emerging, and not privatized in any manner, that is propaganda by the more seemingly &quot;established&quot; doctrines. Pentecostalism has faces coming from all churches, and those churches making an issue of it to the point of ostracizing and persecuting members who followed it. Therefore it can&#039;t be considered a denomination per se. It is a movement found through all churches. But much of the reason there is a Pentecostal denomination has arisen from such persecutions, even in the United States.

In the late 1800s, namely the shift after the Civil War during Reconstruction many people were left disillusioned because their churches had taught them to go this way or that way, their pastors telling them which side was better to fight on, and millions of people died, leaving widows and children who needed spiritual guidance, the south was left decimated and created a vacuum. So what happened? The KKK was formed and had it&#039;s following in the church. This is a historical truth, something caused these men to want to follow this new idealism of white separatism. And it was preached, and still is is many churches mostly those of Reform Theology.

We should understand that not all people who ascribe to Reform Theology is part of the KKK, but let&#039;s take a hard look at this. The &quot;Pentecostalism&quot; was responsible for much of the covert preaching in slave rows. It filled the vacuum later for those who lost everything. The &quot;big tent&quot; revivals were popular among those who were considered less educated and appeals to those people. Why? Because it includes any one and every one, it is not an exclusive club like many churches have become. It is a great insult to people to think their religious conviction has little to do with intellectualism, because intellectualism only can work when one remains exclusive.

You don&#039;t have to be genius to be a Christian, and you don&#039;t have to be Christian to be a genius. Pentecostalism works because of it&#039;s transcendent nature. Jesus said, &quot;the poor have the gospel preached to them&quot; that was the poor people, those on the fringe of society, those outside the mainstream. Reform theology only enforces doctrine. It doesn&#039;t have much room for what does not make sense. And the Bible says &quot;He has used the simple to confound the wise&quot;. Of course feelings are a big part of it, but so is that in relationship in the natural. Husbands and wives have emotion and feelings toward one another, parents have emotions and feelings toward their children. And aren&#039;t we supposed to approach God in a relationship outside our reasoning? Cold theology vs. warm relationship. Don&#039;t think God is more pleased in search for doctrine than He is in the individual seeking His face.

The only reason it would be collapsing is because of the exclusive nature. It has become victim of social gospel but can&#039;t stand much on it&#039;s own because it denied relationship of the individual first and that individual is part of the body. And people perhaps get tired of being persecuted by evangelicalism being used as a battering ram.

I seem to recall the very country that Reform Theology came from is now faced with moral collapse with legalized drug use and prostitution. Perhaps it could be cold theology is not enough? Reform Theology in Europe denied the Jews in Europe. Perhaps when that little Lutheran preacher was preaching against Hitler, the rest of the church should have listened. Where is the church now as Christians are being killed in Arab countries? In African countries? In Asia? Where is American Christianity? It&#039;s hiding it&#039;s head in &quot;reason theology&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article but forgetting what the impetus was for such popularity of the &#8220;feeling over truth&#8221; movement, especially the Pentecostal &#8220;emerging&#8221; group. Historically what was happening that caused it to sweep the country?</p>
<p>Pentecostalism was not new, not emerging, and not privatized in any manner, that is propaganda by the more seemingly &#8220;established&#8221; doctrines. Pentecostalism has faces coming from all churches, and those churches making an issue of it to the point of ostracizing and persecuting members who followed it. Therefore it can&#8217;t be considered a denomination per se. It is a movement found through all churches. But much of the reason there is a Pentecostal denomination has arisen from such persecutions, even in the United States.</p>
<p>In the late 1800s, namely the shift after the Civil War during Reconstruction many people were left disillusioned because their churches had taught them to go this way or that way, their pastors telling them which side was better to fight on, and millions of people died, leaving widows and children who needed spiritual guidance, the south was left decimated and created a vacuum. So what happened? The KKK was formed and had it&#8217;s following in the church. This is a historical truth, something caused these men to want to follow this new idealism of white separatism. And it was preached, and still is is many churches mostly those of Reform Theology.</p>
<p>We should understand that not all people who ascribe to Reform Theology is part of the KKK, but let&#8217;s take a hard look at this. The &#8220;Pentecostalism&#8221; was responsible for much of the covert preaching in slave rows. It filled the vacuum later for those who lost everything. The &#8220;big tent&#8221; revivals were popular among those who were considered less educated and appeals to those people. Why? Because it includes any one and every one, it is not an exclusive club like many churches have become. It is a great insult to people to think their religious conviction has little to do with intellectualism, because intellectualism only can work when one remains exclusive.</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t have to be genius to be a Christian, and you don&#8217;t have to be Christian to be a genius. Pentecostalism works because of it&#8217;s transcendent nature. Jesus said, &#8220;the poor have the gospel preached to them&#8221; that was the poor people, those on the fringe of society, those outside the mainstream. Reform theology only enforces doctrine. It doesn&#8217;t have much room for what does not make sense. And the Bible says &#8220;He has used the simple to confound the wise&#8221;. Of course feelings are a big part of it, but so is that in relationship in the natural. Husbands and wives have emotion and feelings toward one another, parents have emotions and feelings toward their children. And aren&#8217;t we supposed to approach God in a relationship outside our reasoning? Cold theology vs. warm relationship. Don&#8217;t think God is more pleased in search for doctrine than He is in the individual seeking His face.</p>
<p>The only reason it would be collapsing is because of the exclusive nature. It has become victim of social gospel but can&#8217;t stand much on it&#8217;s own because it denied relationship of the individual first and that individual is part of the body. And people perhaps get tired of being persecuted by evangelicalism being used as a battering ram.</p>
<p>I seem to recall the very country that Reform Theology came from is now faced with moral collapse with legalized drug use and prostitution. Perhaps it could be cold theology is not enough? Reform Theology in Europe denied the Jews in Europe. Perhaps when that little Lutheran preacher was preaching against Hitler, the rest of the church should have listened. Where is the church now as Christians are being killed in Arab countries? In African countries? In Asia? Where is American Christianity? It&#8217;s hiding it&#8217;s head in &#8220;reason theology&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Ott</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/the-coming-evangelical-collapse-and-the-new-calvinism/comment-page-1/#comment-11771</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Ott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=2084#comment-11771</guid>
		<description>Michael Spencer, aka the &quot;Internet Monk&quot; was interviewed by the &quot;God Whisperers&quot; (March 30, 2009) about his article in the Christian Science Monitor about the inevitable collapse of evangelicalism within 10-25 years.

http://www.godwhisperers.com/The_God_Whisperers/Home/Entries/2009/3/30_Episode_43%3A__Michael_Spencer.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Spencer, aka the &#8220;Internet Monk&#8221; was interviewed by the &#8220;God Whisperers&#8221; (March 30, 2009) about his article in the Christian Science Monitor about the inevitable collapse of evangelicalism within 10-25 years.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.godwhisperers.com/The_God_Whisperers/Home/Entries/2009/3/30_Episode_43%3A__Michael_Spencer.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.godwhisperers.com/The_God_Whisperers/Home/Entries/2009/3/30_Episode_43%3A__Michael_Spencer.html</a></p>
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