Why Even Bother Going to Church?

# on 25 Mar 2009
Ecclesiology (Church)

Comments (69)

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69 Responses to “Why Even Bother Going to Church?”

1. Kaffinator on 25 Mar 2009 at 1:22 pm #

   “Why go home? My home stinks. My family is always either rude or in a hurry. We hardly ever have significant conversations, it’s just ‘Hi’, ‘when are you going to do the dishes’ or something pithy like that.

   “Food? Yes my wife cooks well. But can’t she just bring the food to my office or car or wherever I’m at?

   “Family time? Yes, I know, we should have ‘quality time’. But do we have to do that at our house? Can’t we just meet at the park once a week or at Starbucks or something? Besides, we can talk on the phone or send emails. Isn’t that enough?

   “I’m tired of my family judging me as a poor dad just because I don’t visit home very often. They are so legalistic sometimes. They’re like, ‘if you’re not home for at least 15 minutes a day then you’re not really my dad.’ Who wrote THAT rule?”

   —

   Now, what would you say to THAT guy? Perhaps it’s not irenic but three words come to mind.

   GROW. UP. ALREADY.

2. Damian on 25 Mar 2009 at 1:24 pm #

   Dang… I was hoping they were your comments, then I could justify lack of church attendance with a resounding “Hey, Michael Patton doesn’t like church either!”
   

   Damian

3. C Michael Patton on 25 Mar 2009 at 1:36 pm #

   LOL…well, I do think that they are good observation bringing up questions that most people cannot answer beyond their own traditional emotions.

   These are serious issues of practical ecclesiology that need to be dealt with.

4. Eric on 25 Mar 2009 at 1:41 pm #

   Meeting with fellow Christians at a Church building teaches a VERY important lesson to Christians…

   It teaches us how to love one another.

   Life with other humans is a very messy affair. Combining two or more sinners (either regenerate or un-regenerate) together for longer than a minute is bound to cause tension.

   If we come together under the “roof” of Scripture, we are able to hold each other accountable and learn to love someone other than ourself in a Godly, agape way.

   Outside of Christian fellowship, this cannot be learned. You cannot learn without at least some practical correction.

   You cannot lose the selfish “I” in your life and become the servant a Christian is supposed to be by flying solo. There is no support and encouragement and there is no accountability by going solo.

   How can you follow the example of the Bereans in Acts 17:10 if you do not have other believers you can go to on a regular basis to be sure that what you have been taught or have read is correct.

5. Jason on 25 Mar 2009 at 1:48 pm #

   This also seems to raise the question of whether cyber churches are viable churches.

6. Jason on 25 Mar 2009 at 1:56 pm #

   And Saturday evening services for those who don’t want to get up Sunday morning. Where does that fall?

7. C Michael Patton on 25 Mar 2009 at 2:06 pm #

   I think that it is important for us not to this that we have a slam dunk answer. This is more significant than most give it credit for.

8. Kaffinator on 25 Mar 2009 at 2:08 pm #

   Hi Jason, sticking with my theme I would say a “cyber church” is every bit as viable as a “cyber marriage”.

   Meeting on Sunday morning on the other hand is just a cultural norm. If Saturday night is the best time for everyone, then, great!

9. cheryl u on 25 Mar 2009 at 2:35 pm #

   Eric commented: “There is no support and encouragement and there is no accountability by going solo.”

   What do you do when you find that it has been more discouraging than encouraging to go to church? And that the support offered there is often so much less than what you get outside of the church when it comes to the practical matters of life that it, quite frankly, stinks?

   It is discouraging to go when every Sunday you have to sit and listen extremely carefully to what is being said because you know that there is likely to be some unbiblical ideas being promoted and you don’t want to get caught off gaurd and get caught up in it. (Been there, done that). It starts to feel like every meal you sit down to is a meal of boney fish that you have to sort through very carefully to keep from getting hurt. I’ve been in these situations way too much in the past years.

   What do you do if a Pastor tells irreverent jokes that make you just want to cringe? After a few of those, you don’t want to go back and face having to deal with that again.

   What do you do if you firmly believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still supposed to be in operation today and you seem to be faced with two choices in churches in your area: either a church that thinks the gifts all ceased with the apostles (although God can still do a miracle if He so chooses), or churches that believe in the gifts but also get way into a lot of extra Biblical or even unbiblical stuff along with it?

   How do you deal with the fact that when there is a death in the family, it is barely acknowledged by your church family? Or when you have a major crisis (like your home being surrounded by flood waters from an overflowing creek) and the folks at your church don’t even bother to call and ask how things are going, much less offer to show up to help? And that is after it was put on the prayer chain in early morning hours so you would think they would know about it.

   And yes, I have been approached more than once by someone that makes me feel like I am committing a mortal sin because I am not going to church at this time. And he said we all need the support and encouragement!

10. Jason on 25 Mar 2009 at 2:43 pm #

    I think Eric has a good point about learning to love and fellowship, but I don’t think it necessitates a church building. What it does require, though is a real cross-section of the local Christians. And by this definition, even some churches fail to be churches—they attract and serve only the white collar families of their neighborhood, or only the families of a given race. But wherever the earliest churches met, Paul was able to speak of Jews Gentiles Scythians Men Women Slave Free, and all were to fellowship.

    If the people are rude and hurried at your church you should go to try and be unhurried and polite.

    Actually the sermons aren’t really all that great most places. Just like the music isn’t so great at a lot of places. But you are going to contribute to worship, not to be entertained.

    Fellowship–yeah again, you and your friends probably don’t constitute a real cross section of local believers. You won’t be able to see that the body of Christ really is more than just a social network or a group of people who feel comfortable together. The church doesn’t gather around friendship or even fellowship; you gather around Christ, you get offended by some of the company he keeps and then you look in the mirror and wonder why He let you in.

    Taking the lord’s table — true we don’t have to do it in a church building and really there’s nothing in the Bible about needing pastors or about how often we should take it. Just follow your church’s tradition. If you don’t you’re only contributing to the coming collapse of Evangelicalism

    Giving–you hate your pastor that much? If you can’t give to your local church, then you should quit your job and go into ministry yourself

    Don’t let anyone judge you by whether you go to church. Let them judge you by whether you love those other believers at your church–even the ones who judge you for coming every other week because your conscience permits you to work on some Sundays.

    Legalism, tradition, good habits. People just can’t tell the difference anymore. (I blame it mainly on John Mayer.) Look, you and your friends are like a pile of eyeballs sitting in a room playing Xbox or drinking coffee or whatever it is all eyeballs like to do. Sure you’re all different color eyeballs and we applaud your diversity, but don’t kid yourselves. Us feet are sittin over here together talking about how much we love Dr Scholl’s. Don’t go to church to be legalistic and earn God’s favor. Go to church because you’re an eyeball that wants to be part of the grace that Jesus pours out on us smelly feet.

    In sum, I don’t think a particular building is required, it just makes getting together easier. And for some of our ideas/attitudes about church (should I go on Sunday or Saturday? Do I have to rest all day? What is rest?), it might be helpful to give some credence to the authority of tradition or at least traditional interpretations of certain prooftexts.

    Hardly a final word, but CMP asked how we’d respond.

    As an alternative response, when someone gives one of the above opinions you could just start crying, tell them you hate them and they’re not your friend anymore and then run away. At least they’ll know you took them seriously.

11. Kaffinator on 25 Mar 2009 at 2:51 pm #

    Cheryl, you sound like someone who is deeply interested in spiritual maturity and hearing the word preached. That is great! But you have some tough questions about what to do when find that your church is flawed and imperfect.

    I go back to apostles like Peter and Paul on this. What did they do when they encountered less-than-perfect churches? Why, they went right to work! Sometimes rebuking, sometimes teaching, sometimes modelling, but always working to build up. That’s because they truly loved people, especially believers, with the same love Christ showed to them.

    So what does that mean when, say, a pastor says something off-key? If you love your pastor that means you’re concerned for his spiritual growth too. Send him a short note to him that you appreciated his message on points X and Y (setting aside point Z for now). Take the opportunity to meet with him and and get to know him so you can say, “do you think that was appropriate?” without coming off as suspicious or arrogant.

    It’s very unfortunate when your church leaders don’t seem to care about your problems. After all they have a heavy burden of their own. So you can help them to help you by specifically asking for a visit instead of hoping they will know what to do. They may not know how best to support you.

    I hope this gives you some ideas Cheryl and I’m praying for you.

12. Jonathan on 25 Mar 2009 at 2:55 pm #

    Most of the comments so far which argue that “going to church” is important seem to be missing the thrust of the statements which CMP is reporting, which is that the church *building* is not important.

    I wouldn’t phrase the question myself as “Why even bother going to church?” but rather “Does having a church building help or hinder us in being the church?”

    I would argue in fact that the church *building* as we have it now in the US is often a hindrance to accomplishing what God wants that church (local group of believers) to do.

    It is often a hindrance because it consumes vast resources (time and money) in utilities, repairs, maintenance, cleaning, etc. The smallish church I attend expends nearly half its budget on the church building.

    It is often a hindrance because it can communicate this idea: this location is the God-space, the places you are in the remainder of the week are the not-God-space.

    It is often a hindrance because it can reinforce the consumerism of treating the church as a purveyor of religious goods and services.

    I say these things without meaning to imply that these things can’t also happen in a church which doesn’t use a distinct building, but I believe they are real and serious.

13. C Michael Patton on 25 Mar 2009 at 2:58 pm #

    Kaff,

    “I go back to apostles like Peter and Paul on this. What did they do when they encountered less-than-perfect churches? Why, they went right to work! Sometimes rebuking, sometimes teaching, sometimes modelling, but always working to build up. That’s because they truly loved people, especially believers, with the same love Christ showed to them.”

    Does this assume some type of church building or a church entity that you “go to”?

    Can church be something that is done and not something that you “go to”?

14. Kaffinator on 25 Mar 2009 at 3:11 pm #

    Well, Michael, when people meet regularly and intentionally I’ve noticed they usually find it convenient to do it under a roof of some kind. That way, when it rains, they don’t get so wet. So, yes I suppose a “building” is necessarily implied

    How can anything be “done” without “going to” the appropriate place for it? When the church needed to “do” something for Peter who was facing execution what did they do? They gathered together in the house of Mary and were praying (Acts 12:12).

    If dirt poor 1st c. Jerusalem persecuted Jewish Christians could hack it? Then us with our cars and roads and money and everything, maybe we can manage too?

15. Jason on 25 Mar 2009 at 3:12 pm #

    cheryl u-

    I am saying a prayer for you right now. May God give you wisdom and grace and supply a true means of encouragement for you.

    I’m not George Barna, but I suspect a majority of churches are somewhat dysfunctional. Like family, you don’t really get to pick ‘em (even though some churches may make it seem like you can). But the idea is to really love them and stay as close as you can. Just like in a family, at a certain point abuse may force you to leave at least for a while. Misunderstandings and disagreements are often part of life, but persistent theological abuse or emotional abuse are not something you should take on alone at a new church. For this reason, I’d say if you feel you’ve been lead into false teaching or just bad teaching, and that the church is committed to continuing that approach, then I’d say that’s probably the one to avoid. If you have Christian friends who are not at either of those churches, be sure to keep in touch and let them help you discern the best path.

    I’m sure others here will pray for you and offer more and better suggestions.

16. C Michael Patton on 25 Mar 2009 at 4:23 pm #

    Kaff,

    Not to disagree generally but to keep this going in the way one might respond and to try to get to the essence of the issue:

    You said:
    “Well, Michael, when people meet regularly and intentionally I’ve noticed they usually find it convenient to do it under a roof of some kind. That way, when it rains, they don’t get so wet. So, yes I suppose a “building” is necessarily implied ”

    I don’t know about that. I can “gather” together with people over the phone, internet, in a car, at Starbucks, or, as some friends of mine have done, at a bar.

    I think the issue is not so much about four walls, but four wall called a “church.” Can church be done, not gone to?

17. Scott Ferguson on 25 Mar 2009 at 4:26 pm #

    Jonathon,

    I often reflect on the proportion of my tithe goes to building up keep AND all the programs that are set up such that they benefit the congregants only – the customers.

    On the other hand, I also think that having a “God space” may be valid. It can help focus the mind toward worship, toward a mind set of putting aside everything but the act of worship. There are people who can achieve this anywhere, but there are those who benefit.

    Unfortunately, most of the these sanctuaries, supposedly built to the glory of God, are ruined by people bringing in coffee cups, congregations applauding (!) soloists as if they are in a concert hall instead of witnessing an offering to God, ministers telling college football jokes, announcements about Aerobics classes immediately before the Lord’s Prayer or the dismissal congregants before the closing hymn and benediction if they have something “important to do for Sunday school.”

    That’s my little rant. As I bemoan in my own blog, maybe it’s the Episcopalian in me. Worship space matters. Joseph Campbell talks about how the actions we take during our Sunday rites occupy the same “ceremonial space” as all other such rites back through time. Was Jesus acknowledging this explicitly when he commanded “do this in remembrance of me?” This concept resonates with me and I don’t think it can be dismissed out of hand.

18. C Michael Patton on 25 Mar 2009 at 4:30 pm #

    Do you all think there are legitimate situations where their may be a “church” in town, but it is so disfunctional, doctrinal or otherwise, that would cause you to not ever “go to” church? If so, could you “do” church without “going”?

19. Kaffinator on 25 Mar 2009 at 4:47 pm #

    All churches are dysfunctional. They have sinners in them. Burn the tares and you burn the wheat too!

    I’ll say this to your question, Michael:

    Join a church if it claims to follow the faith as taught by the apostles and administers baptism and the supper, in His name. If there was really no such thing I would strongly consider moving somewhere one could be found.

    Leave when they kick you out on account of your consistent, loving, whole-hearted gospel witness.

20. Chad Winters on 25 Mar 2009 at 4:48 pm #

    Michael, why do you have to do this to me!

    Most of your points hit home. I got to church (most of the time) because I’m supposed to. (and because my worship life is the weakest part of my “Christian Walk”…well that and my prayer life….and …..)

    But I rarely leave feeling like I worshipped God. Mostly I listened to some songs and a sermon that may or may not have been good, useful or biblically based. Spiritual growth seems to happen outside the church with books and audio lectures and prayer (not often enough, I admit) and small groups. My pastor is actually pretty good and gives some good sermons….but even still I am usually yelling inside for him to make his pioint and then relate it to the Gospel.

    Mostly church seems like a place for “once a week” Christians to check off their to-do list. Somehow the building across town that you visit once per week allows you to compartmentalize Christianity into something that only happens there.

21. Nick on 25 Mar 2009 at 8:00 pm #

    The problem is simple: Sola Scriptura.

    Sola Scriptura watered down and practically invalidated virtually every Christian doctrine because each person decides what is and is not important.

    Thus when it comes to Sunday worship, some Protestants teach Saturday, some teach any day is as good as another, some teach any formal gathering is purely optional, some teach good Christians attend Wednesday night study, etc, etc.
    At the end of the day, Protestants cannot agree on how and when to unite, and thus the logical response frequently arises: “why even bother to go to church?”

22. Dr Mike on 25 Mar 2009 at 8:08 pm #

    Just because I left the church doesn’t mean I left the Church. I just don’t happen to belong to a 501.c.3 tax exempt (and thus tax deductible!) organization right now.

    But I haven’t cease to gather with believers for fellowship, worship, discipleship, and evangelism. And we’re a lot closer to the NT pattern than the brick-and-mortar institution down the street.

    The 501.c.3 people seem to believe that they and they alone get to define what constitutes legitimate church participation. Sorry, but you don’t. That’s been provided for us whether we’ve really paid attention or not.

    Jesus spent a lot of time and said a lot of words that had the effect of decentralizing spiritual life. Now we fight like crazy to keep our centralized control of all things spiritual.

    For all that the Reformation accomplished, we have would up replace one Catholic church with another, variegated catholic church.

    We’re not part of a dysfunction organization; we’re part of an organization that is inconsistent with what Christianity is supposed to be about.

23. AChristian on 25 Mar 2009 at 8:30 pm #

    Nick at 8 pm: The problem is simple: Sola Scriptura

    Well, Nick, as one who’s been both East and West and all around the town, I can tell you that your solution to the problem posed in this post – i.e., the Roman Catholic Church – is, IMO and experience, a cure worse than the disease. Not for the same reasons, but for its own reasons. Hocus Pocus and all that….

24. D.L. Kane on 25 Mar 2009 at 8:33 pm #

    WOW! I am truly a misifit. I noticed most comments were all about what “we” get out of it. I go to church to worship Him. The rest of the week I spend with brothers and sisters sharing burdens, praying, encouraging, etc.

    Church is not a place to get ‘YOUR” social needs met. It is a time set aside to worship Him in a bigger way. He likes that, it brings Him glory. That was one reason we were created–to worship Him and to bring Him glory. The Church building is simply a location provided so that we can “in larger numbers” testify of His beauty by setting aside one day a week to gather together and worship together and it is a special time to gather together with those who procalim Him as Lord and Savior and offer up sacrifices (or voices, our hearts, our minds, our souls) of Worship.

    I could care less if anyone talks to me at “church”. I am there for Him and I know that there are many standing and sitting all around who are my brothers and sisters and we are uniting together in worship.

    Am I missing something?

    D.L Kane

25. C Michael Patton on 25 Mar 2009 at 9:32 pm #

    Kaff,

    “Join a church if it claims to follow the faith as taught by the apostles and administers baptism and the supper, in His name. If there was really no such thing I would strongly consider moving somewhere one could be found.”

    Do you think that we should move away from a place with no Christians? What if someone said you should stay there precisely because they have no Christians? Couldn’t an argument be made for such?

26. Nick on 25 Mar 2009 at 9:46 pm #

    Quote:Well, Nick, as one who’s been both East and West and all around the town, I can tell you that your solution to the problem posed in this post – i.e., the Roman Catholic Church – is, IMO and experience, a cure worse than the disease. Not for the same reasons, but for its own reasons. Hocus Pocus and all that….

    That isn’t much of a response. My claim is that the further you move away from an authoritative Church (which is what Sola Scriptura does) the more individualistic Christians become, and that’s why there is no ‘correct’ answer on how,when,why,etc a Christian is supposed to think when it comes to attending church service.

27. Jonathan on 25 Mar 2009 at 9:47 pm #

    Hi Scott,

    I appreciate your point about the value of a space set aside for worshiping God. I think it’s very fine line to tread, because the better we are at helping people experience God in the “God-space”, the more we (unintentionally) encourage people to think (perhaps subconsciously) that, if you want to meet God, if you want to experience God’s presence, you must come here. God’s presence is not to be found in the world at large, among the poor and hurting, in your home, or at your workplace. It is to be found in the “sacred space”.

    Gathered worship must not be pursued without a robust sense of calling to go out together into the world to bring the good news of the kingdom to bear in our everyday contexts, to participate in God’s mission of setting the world right, and to call those outside of Christ to follow him.

    In fact, I would say that gathering together should serve the “ministry of reconciliation”. If when/where/how we gather as a community helps, inspires, equips, and rejuvenates us for the mission, then that gathering is doing what God intends.

    So a building may or may not serve the mission. I think that most US churches own a building not because they believe it will serve the mission God has called them to have among their neighbors. They own a building because that’s what “churches are supposed to do”. That’s why the building is called a “church”. If you don’t have a building, you don’t have a church. What nonsense, especially in a world where fewer and fewer of those who are outside of Christ believe that they will find anything of value inside those church buildings.

28. James on 25 Mar 2009 at 9:47 pm #

    If the Church in America were to be under persecution, would we even be having this conversation right now?

29. Peter on 25 Mar 2009 at 9:56 pm #

    Another tricky corner that sola scriptura has painted people into.

30. Chad Winters on 25 Mar 2009 at 9:59 pm #

    Quoted from Nick:
    “That isn’t much of a response. My claim is that the further you move away from an authoritative Church (which is what Sola Scriptura does) the more individualistic Christians become, and that’s why there is no ‘correct’ answer on how,when,why,etc a Christian is supposed to think when it comes to attending church service.”

    ahh…but the rub is that just because an “authoritative Church” says it doesn’t make it necessarily right either. Must we go into all the instances where each “Church” has been wrong in the past?

    Sure I could have peace of mind by giving up all pretense of being “Berean” and agree with whatever “rules of Man” I’m given. But I think God will honor wrestling with his Word (as Michael frequently does) over accepting whatever the nearest Pharisee will tell me is right.

    Not to mention the huge variability of individual practitioners within the supposedly monolithic “authoritative Churches”. I don’t they show any less variability than the “Sola Scriptura” folks!

31. havoc on 25 Mar 2009 at 10:24 pm #

    i go to church because there is someone there who needs me. there is someone there who only i can minister to in the way i do.

    i go to church because there is someone there who can minister to me. someone through whom God is going to speak to me.

    you need to be at church for those two reasons, too. you’ll need to be humble enough to be used by God, and humble enough to hear Him.

32. Susan on 25 Mar 2009 at 10:37 pm #

    Could an argument be made for staying in a place where there are no Christians? Well, missionaries have certainly done this… and, not necessarily foreign missionaries. I don’t think that it would be a good idea for one lone Christian to take this on, but two, or a small group, could go into such a place, with the goal of establishing a church. It would be important for this small group to have had some Bible training, to have a good grasp of scripture.

    One of the important functions of the church is to teach correct doctrine. Believers who don’t attend church, tend to be the ones who have ideas which are not Biblically sound. They have no one to correct them, so their false ideas become deeply accepted— ideas which shape their lives.

33. Alden on 25 Mar 2009 at 11:01 pm #

    “Behold, I tell you a mystery…”

    btw, sola scriptura is not the problem. I think the problem is that people aren’t actually reading their “scriptura.”

34. John from Down Under on 26 Mar 2009 at 1:35 am #

    Some thoughts from across the Pacific……while you folk are asleep at this time of night!

    Firstly may I comment on the CHURCH BUILDING question.

    While there is nothing binding in the NT about meeting in a brick-and-mortar structure, I think having a church building at least presents some practical benefits if nothing else. Years ago we used to attend a small local church that used to meet in school halls. We had to set up before every meeting and then pack up at the end, 3 times a week. It took a lot of our time and energy and it exhausted us. NOT FUN! There is nothing I could romanticize about that experience.

    Eventually we bought our own building (quite modest) and it was such a great relief. We had a permanent base, a ‘home’, we were able to do some admin work (photocopying, recordings, storage etc), we could plan better, hold special events without someone else’s consent and utilize it as we saw fit. Of course it cost us a bit, but none of us bemoaned the ‘investment’ since the benefits we got in return outweighed any financial ‘burden’.

    Megachurches on the other hand take this to the opposite extreme where the building almost becomes an idol and it ties up enormous amounts of capital that could be diverted elsewhere. But this problem is only one of the many by-products of the megachurch model.

    To comment on the initial WHY SHOULD WE questions on CMP’s post, I think can be better answered in response to the WHAT, HOW & WHY questions.

    The WHAT

    Gathering with other believers is a binding command in the NT, not good advice. It’s not optional. 1 Cor 12:21 makes it clear that there is a God ordained inter-dependence within the body of Christ. There are obvious and multiple reasons for this of course. We are wired to belong.

    The very act of baptism is [among other things] an induction into the body “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body” (1 Cor 12:13) Likewise, communion “And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor 10:16)

    The HOW

    Since we have no biblical mandate to meet in ‘buildings’ no-one can make a case against meeting at Starbucks, someone’s house or in a park. If we can fulfil the functional aspects of church gathering (taking communion, preaching and singing songs) then one can argue nothing stops us meeting anywhere else (although I’d feel weird taking communion and singing songs at Starbucks). Many churches in poor countries don’t have buildings anyway.

    As far as cyber-church goes, as much as I enjoy cyber-fellowship, in the spirit of the NT writings I could not regard it as God’s appointed means of ‘church’. Cyber-communities afford us the luxury of anonymity and lack of accountability. When I’m down I’d like to know there’s someone who can shake my hand or put their arm around me, something I can’t do with cyber brothers. Internet communications and other electronic means cannot act as substitutes for the real thing (fellowship with flesh and blood).

    The WHY

    If one has no desire to mingle with other Christians regularly (Heb 10:25), we have to ask ‘why’? Church is more than a group of people who share common interests; it is an extension of our natural family.

    Cheryl u I hear ya, but none of what you described should be a surprise to any of us. Churches are made up of imperfect people full of imperfections (behavioral, doctrinal, relational etc). We recently had to ‘church shop’ as we couldn’t bear our last church any longer for reasons similar to what you described. It came down to 3 things for us. [1] Since all churches are imperfect, we had to ask ourselves which kind of ‘imperfections’ were willing to put up with, [2] a church that is not afraid to preach the native gospel and not the watered down church-lite synthetic preaching of 80% pop psychology and 20% gospel (if you’re lucky) and [3] a church that is willing to ‘get its hands dirty’ with some practical hands-on outreach, that does not spend all its efforts just debating doctrine. As a result we had to change denominations. So now we call ourselves, ‘Pentecostal / megachurch refugees’ and ‘nondenominational skeptics’ as we don’t feel the need for allegiance to any particular denomination (although we are part of one).

    So rather than leave church altogether, why not find another one? Surely there’s got to be some church that you could fit in. If not, then you seriously need to ask some ‘why’ questions. Paul’s words on how to ‘put up’ with other Christians was “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.” (Eph 4:2)

    Peace!

35. bethyada on 26 Mar 2009 at 1:48 am #

    I have no problem with people meeting in homes. Fellowshipping with other Christians is what is important. Faith grows faith.

    The issue with the above questioner resolves around why they are asking these questions. Our generation can be a little preoccupied with what is in it for us. We care more about our desires than our duty.

    If a church is truly dysfunctional enough that perhaps we best not attend then that is possibly a good reason. If we don’t get what we desire then perhaps we should be more concerned about how we should be serving.

    In a building or a home we still need to be in a position where we are accountable to others.

36. Matt on 26 Mar 2009 at 6:02 am #

    How are you going to do cyber-church discipline? Disable their account? Give them limited access to the chatroom? Gathering physically is a NT command. Church is a community of believers doing life together. I can hide my sin and lifestyle in an online community. But if I am gathered regularly, more than once a week and am an active member of a community of a believers, the areas where I need spiritual growth and maturity are going to be obvious to a Biblically-led church and church leadership.

    Accountability, obedience, and service are why we go. D.L. Kane’s comment above is dead on- this line of questioning is “all about me and what I GET out of church.” Every self-centered sinner wants to be the exception to God’s rule.

37. yipeng on 26 Mar 2009 at 7:53 am #

    Just as Paul suggests that a Christian should not abandon his unbelieving wife, God does not abandon His Church… even when it is unbiblical. Should we not act likewise? Perhaps the key is doing so why committing to everything else Scripture says. (Including fellowship and truth!)

38. yipeng on 26 Mar 2009 at 7:57 am #

    Can you imagine God writing a letter through Paul to “The Church at Starbucks”?

    Impossible… or Super duper cool? =)

39. Jonathan on 26 Mar 2009 at 8:07 am #

    A lot of discussion around this topic reminds me of “discussions” I have had with KJV-only folks. They will make an argument (from Scripture) that God’s Word is eternal, or that God will preserve it, or whatever. They then act as if they had proved that the KJV is eternal and that God has preserved it. It’s like they can’t understand that “God’s Word” and “KJV” aren’t two different expressions for the same thing.

    In the same way, many people react to the suggestion of not having a dedicated “church building” by trying to prove that the church (or gathering together) is important. I’m sure it’s a caricature to say so, but it almost seems like they can’t grasp that “church” can mean anything other than “church building”.

40. Dave on 26 Mar 2009 at 8:09 am #

    The comment about selfishness is very relevent here. It’s not about “me”. If the question centers around about how happy or unhappy it makes me, I need to get a new perspective. It’s about God and his will. Worship is a sacrifice not a feel-good experience.

41. Jonathan on 26 Mar 2009 at 9:52 am #

    Quoting Scripture passages or making other arguments for why Christians should gather together and why Christians cannot go it alone are quite beside the point for me. I agree 100% with those statements.

    Let me make this clear:
    Christians should gather together regularly.
    Christians should be deeply engaged in each other’s lives.
    Christians were never intended to be “lone rangers”.
    Christians need each other.

    I do not call these activities “going to church”. So when I say that I question the value of “going to church”, I am not referring to those things.

    But I still think that owning a dedicated church building is deeply problematic, not something to be unthinkingly assumed, and possibly a hindrance to the mission which God has called his people to be engaged in.

    I appreciate that a dedicated building is in most cases more convenient, and I accept that in some cases, it can be a benefit to the mission of the church. I just don’t think we ought to assume that *of course* we need a building.

    To cast my thought in a different light: Since “church” means people, I believe that the terms “congregation” and “church” are virtually synonymous. It doesn’t make any sense to “go to congregation,” so why should we “go to church”?

42. cheryl u on 26 Mar 2009 at 10:00 am #

    It seems quite obvious that none of you here have experienced the types of things that have left me in the place I am in now.

    I am copying two quotes from different people here:

    “Church is more than a group of people who share common interests; it is an extension of our natural family.”

    That is exactly what I have always thought of church being. That is why when the church acts like anything but a loving and supporting family, it hurts really badly and why it seems utterly nonsensical to tell someone they need to be in church for the support and encouragement.

    “Just as Paul suggests that a Christian should not abandon his unbelieving wife, God does not abandon His Church… even when it is unbiblical.”

    How do you sit week after week, Sunday morning and week night Bible studies, in a place where you don’t believe what is being taught lines up with Scirpture? And where the practices of the church don’t line up with Scripture? Or where whole sections of teaching in the Bible are written off as not relevant for today? (Remember my original comment about the gifts of the Spirit or the alternative around here). In the New Testament, there is a huge emphasis put on the need for correct doctrine. Obviously, poeple are always going to believe differently about some things, but I am talking about some pretty major issues here.

    And I am not talking about just one church or denomination, I have been in various churches and denominations in the past years and it is hard everywhere. We live in a rural area so that also limits the choices that are available. I am not at all saying that the place I am in now is ideal, however at the moment, I don’t see a solution to the problem.

43. cheryl u on 26 Mar 2009 at 10:32 am #

    Something else I need to comment on here. Several comments have been made saying that church is “not about me” but it is a sacrifice of worship to God and have, without naming names, made it plain that you think my concerns are selfish.

    Have you read I Cor. 14 lately where Paul describes what is done when Christians gather together and the purpose of that gathering? He says that all things are to be done for edification–to build each other up and that all are to learn and be encouraged! Doesn’t sound to me like it is all about a sacrifice of worship to God or that I am just being selfish when the very things Paul says are to happen are the things I have found sorely missing in churches around here. (Obviously, I am not only speaking of Sunday morning services, but also the practical outworking during the week of that “family” that comes together on Sunday morning.)

    It seems to me from my reading of the New Testament that the family is to love, support, care for, encourage, and teach each other, etc. Why is this so sadly lacking?

44. EricW on 26 Mar 2009 at 10:37 am #

    IMO, the church gathering should more resemble a family get-together than an audience/stage setting with a worship band performance followed by a college-style lecture with PowerPoint slides and Flash presentations – which unfortunately seems to be the pattern these days in most churches we’ve visited. It should incorporate sharing/teaching from the Scriptures, as well as everyone being able (whether they do it or not) to minister to one another in prayer and encouraging or prophetic words, and a personal and group recommitment to the New Covenant and one another with a shared cup and shared loaf as part of a Lord’s Table meal, where we remember Jesus to God re: the Covenant He made with us through His Son and eagerly await the day when we will recline at table with Him in His coming kingdom.

    Why would any serious Christian not want to be a regular part of something like that?

    But like anything else, you first have to decide the reasons why you get together, or should get together, as a church, and then make the structure and format fit that purpose.

45. Kaffinator on 26 Mar 2009 at 11:38 am #

    Hi Michael (#25), Susan (#32) answered your question for me. If you go somewhere to start a church you are church planting and you had better have a support team.

    If you go somewhere without a church and hope one is going to spring from the rocks, you will be disappointed.

    I agree with most people that a building is not mandated but becomes a practical necessity. If Christians meet at Starbucks, that’s great. But are you actually: baptising? Serving communion? Praying? Teaching and receiving teaching? Subject to elders? Singing hymns? If not, then you are meeting with some friends for encouragement. That’s great, but don’t fool yourself, it’s not what the New Testament calls a “church”.

    Cheryl (#43), I agree that people in the body of Christ are sometimes too concerned with their own needs. And I’m very sorry you’ve felt let down by them. If you are truly convicted this needs to change there is only one thing you can do about it: start showing them a better example. So far I have heard you trash on your local assemblies. May I ask, what are you doing to build them up?

46. cheryl u on 26 Mar 2009 at 11:51 am #

    Kaffinator,

    You know, I truly wish I had never opened my mouth and said a word here. I thought my experience would spark discussion and that it was in keeping with Michael’s post. I know of many, many people with similar experiences as mine and honestly thought some of them would probably comment here.

    Instead, I have been more or less clobbered by people that have obviously never expereinced what I have and don’t have a clue as to what I am talking about.

    And I can’t even speak honestly about what I have experienced withought being accused of “trashing on” the local churches!

    For your information, I faithfully attended churches in this area for about 25 years–every Sunday morning and once or twice during the week whenever it was possible. I served in whatever ways I could, prayed, and encouraged people by phone calls, conversations, taking food to someone that was sick or whatever. It is not like I have sat here all of my life doing nothing but tear down the local churches There was a time when I defended them completely against anyone that had anything negative to say. Unfortunately, for all of the reasons listed above, and for more that I don’t even want to go into, I can’t do that anymore as I once could.

47. Kaffinator on 26 Mar 2009 at 12:04 pm #

    Cheryl, I have to beg your apology for offending you. I did not intend to suggest that you have NOT done things for your church bodies, only that I didn’t know what they were.

    You’re also right in a sense, I have been very blessed by a faithful, active church. Since becoming a believer I have not had to endure what you have. I’m sure the day will come and I hope that my faith in Jesus, my understanding of what “church” really is, and more importantly, His sustaining hand will help me weather that storm.

    I do hope you’ll agree that it’s not profitable to anyone to simply accuse churches of these kinds of failures (which I’m sure are very real) without at the same time looking to build them up. And certainly the solution is more involvement, and better example, not less and worse. I was hoping you would agree.

    In that vein, what is one thing you think churches today could do differently to encourage more care within the body?

48. cheryl u on 26 Mar 2009 at 12:55 pm #

    Kaffinator,

    Thank you. Apology accepted. I don’t think that anyone that hasn’t “been there, done that” can begin to understand what this is really like. On the other hand, (and I am speaking to everyone here, not pointing at you,) if people won’t listen when someone tells them these kinds of things are going on and how it effects people, but instead clobber the person that has had to deal with the issues, how will anything ever change?

    You asked a very good question–how can churches do things differently to encourage more care in the body? I wish I knew an easy answer to that.

    It seems to me that maybe the first step is, as I said above, simply listening to those that state there is a problem and not “shoot the messenger” as the old saying goes.

    I think maybe another thing would be to point out, probably repeatedly, what the Bible teaches and the examples given of how the body is to care for each other. Maybe we need some basic lessons on the fact that love is more than a word but is an action that has to be put into practice. The American Church as a whole probably needs to realize that we are a very independent and self absorbed lot and that there are people that sit right next to us in church on Sunday morning that have very real practical and emotional needs and that is painful to know that the ones outside of our blood relatives that should care the most and offer help in whatever ways possible often just don’t seem to be concerned in the least.

    And of course, there is always, as you have said, the power of example.

    The church of my youth was one of the most caring bodies of people that any one could ever ask for. They helped each other in very practical ways. When someone was sick, they prayed, visited, called on the phone to check, brought food or whatever. When someone died, the outpouring of love and support was incredible. In many very important ways, they modeled Christian love in a very Biblical way. Maybe if I hadn’t known what it can be like, experienceing the way it is so often now wouldn’t be so painful.

49. matt on 26 Mar 2009 at 1:04 pm #

    Cheryl, I don’t know your situation fully, but it sounds like you aren’t in a church but in a building. I hope you can find a biblical church that followed the biblical commands for what the body of Christ looks like, acts like, does.

50. cheryl u on 26 Mar 2009 at 1:18 pm #

    Matt, Thank you.

51. Michael L on 26 Mar 2009 at 2:05 pm #

    D.L.Kane
    Amen brother ! Amen…
    It’s not about what I like to do. But what HE wants me to do. I can find no better place to worship Him than with another group of sinners, amongst which are undoubtedly a bunch I wouldn’t go to Starbucks with

    Cheryl u
    Sorry to hear that. Truly am. Been there done that. I’ll rewrite my own church experiences coming to the US. Yikes that was a shock ! In addition, I’ll pray the Lord may lead you to a solid Bible oriented Church.
    Have you considered starting perhaps a small home bible study group ? With the 25 years involvement, there must be local people you’re still in touch with, that may think like you, etc. Make it a small group, study, worship, have the Lord’s supper and be HIS church. I know this sounds a whole lot like “emergent” or “house church”. But in your particular case, it may be a solution perhaps ?

    CMP,
    I’ve heard the questions. Asked them myself for a while even.

    I don’t know the answer, or whether there even is an answer. I do know that I’ve seen Christianity (Roman Catholicism) go down the drain because of a lack of worship attendance. Look at Europe today. Churches are empty ! And one can’t help but wonder.. are the churches (in this case buildings) empty because the faith is declining ? Or is the faith declining because people started staying away from church and hence it became less of a part of their daily or weekly lives.

    CS Lewis once wrote:

    “Surely you know that if a man can’t be cured of churchgoing, the next best thing is to send him all over the neighbourhood looking for the church that “suits” him until he becomes a taster or connoisseur of churches.
    Screwtape letters, Letter XVI

    I would strongly suggest to anyone questioning church attendance to read that particular letter. Besides that.. the book’s a funny read

    Finally, since we tend to surround ourselves with people we “like”, the ones we tend to “dislike” sometimes are our best mirrors. By avoiding them, we only avoid looking at ourselves and seeing how flawed we are in becoming an “image of Christ”

    In Him
    Mick

52. John from Down Under on 26 Mar 2009 at 4:48 pm #

    Mick (digressing a bit) – how do you insert those smiley’s? What HTML code you use? I can’t seem to find it anywhere.

53. minnow on 26 Mar 2009 at 5:07 pm #

    Eric #4 The problem with your statement: “It teaches us how to love one another” is that the fellowships CMP described are offering no opportunity to practice love unless it’s unconditional love toward leadership that is errant but demanding “support”. With regard to you feeback/conversation point–Where does such take place in a tyypical Sunday AM setting? No offense to those who are being the Church sent out but the average “Church” goer (in my experience) doesn’t think much about being God’s ambassador or witnessing between meeting days.
    #22 I can Amen most of what you said! especially: “Jesus spent a lot of time and said a lot of words that had the effect of decentralizing spiritual life. Now we fight like crazy to keep our centralized control of all things spiritual.”
    #24 Yes, D. L. Kane, you are missing something. But, maybe that’s a good thing if you’ve found a fellowship unlike any I’ve experienced that makes worship and God rather than man’s best songs and man’s canned sermons central. Or perhaps you are able to function in the fellowship you’ve found unaware of those around you and how the fellowship conducts it’s “business”.
    CMP #16 “Can church be done, not gone to?” Seems to me those in Acts managed to do Church wherever they went.

54. Seth R. on 26 Mar 2009 at 10:52 pm #

    “How would you respond?”

    If you leave, there will be less people like you, and more people like them left in the congregation.

55. Peter on 27 Mar 2009 at 12:13 am #

    “ahh…but the rub is that just because an “authoritative Church” says it doesn’t make it necessarily right either. Must we go into all the instances where each “Church” has been wrong in the past?”

    This is probably not the time to argue about who was wrong about what and when, but I’d like to point out that going to church was the practice of the universal church, where you can define that term as widely or narrowly as you wish.

56. Michael L. on 27 Mar 2009 at 9:22 am #

    John from down under

    Use a semicolon followed by a minus sign followed by a closing parenthesis

    Something like ; – )

    I put some spaces between them to show the different characters. Without the spaces you get this
    There’s others as well. Wordpress has a good article on it at

    http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies

    In Him
    Mick

57. ScottL on 28 Mar 2009 at 6:58 am #

    Michael -

    You could pull the good ol’ evangelical card and ask where the Bible teaches we must GO to church.

    There are some particular passages on assembling together (i.e. Heb 10:24-25), but I am not sure the typical American idea of church is synonymous with these passages.

    I know you know ekklesia is not, in its essence, about a building. It’s about the people of God gathered together. A building can sit empty, so it seems in its most simple form to be about the people gathered together (2 or 3 in my name). There is a special sense about our main gatherings, as in the usual Sunday gathering. But I am glad church is not relegated to Sunday mornings.

    Let’s celebrate on Sundays, but by no means cast a rule that doesn’t even line up with the Scriptures teaching about the ekklesia.

    I find myself tempted every so often to cancel our Sunday gatherings for a couple of months. I wonder how people would respond. If they know what ekklesia is about, then they will get on being the ekklesia in their homes, in the parks, over a beer or coffee, etc.

    That’s beautiful!!

58. Nick P on 28 Mar 2009 at 10:08 pm #

    “I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.” – Mark Twain

    My view of the usefulness and quality of public education couldn’t get much lower. My view of the usefulness and quality of church is lower than that. What makes church even worse is that the teachers are more arrogant and give out more false and damaging information.

    Last week I heard a sermon where the pastor said, “Self introspection is from the devil.” And this is the person I’m supposed to respect and learn from? I can get a more valuable sermon from the graffiti in public bathroom stalls.

    Church has less that no value to me.

59. Mary on 28 Mar 2009 at 11:51 pm #

    Cheryl,
    My heart goes out to you. I am somewhat in a similar situation as far as “church” attendance. I perceive the Lord is desiring to do a magnificent work in your life through this trial. Likewise, the enemy of your soul desires to sift you as wheat. He wants to isolate you and that is why you must be single-focused on trusting the Lord and being obedient to the Biblically expressed pattern of not forsaking the assembly TOGETHER with other believers, realizing the fallibility of man but the complete INFALLIBILTY of the Father. The grace of God wants to show you how to humble yourself and become obedient to the cross as Jesus modeled for us.
    This sounds like a burden God has given you and as you seek Him and His glory is revealed, you will glorify Him in deed. I infer from your posts you are a gifted lady and those gifts are from God for the building up of others. However, oftentimes, others don’t want to be built up, they want to be propped up. We don’t meet their expectations and they don’t meet ours!

    I came to know Jesus in a Pentecostal church that modeled the freedom I already had been expressing as an unregenerate sinner. God chose this pathway for me to see the difference between the flesh and the Spirit, intellectual hearing and listening to His voice as the Scriptures tell us that we can do ALL things through Christ who loved us. We did not (and still do not) make it easy…but His patience and longsuffering are examples for us who wait on the Lord. We do this to please Him and not others. We also wait on others to please Him and not to be people-pleasers. I am serving in a church now that does not love the Word, yet thinks they are “holy”. I daresay, most Christians would fall into that category because they lean more toward the modern looseness of psychologized theology which is completely MAN CENTERED.
    No matter what has happened in your past history with the “organized” church, you simply cannot take a chance on isolation being the answer. This is a very vulnerable time in your spiritual walk and obedience to the law of love is vital…Love the Lord God with ALL your heart, mind, and strength….AND love your neighbor…regard him/her more highly than yourself. My dear, it is now your “serve”.

    Lifting you up in prayer,
    Mary

60. Minnow on 29 Mar 2009 at 12:27 am #

    Mary–I’m sorry but going to worship/fellowship with other beievers should NOT be a “cross one needs to bare”. And who are we to say that God hasn’t put Cheryl in the place she is in precisely because He wants her all to Himself–isolated from the deceit of Man. I am really tired of how willing we are to be someone else’s Holy Spirit. The woman is sharing her frustration and pain and we go around slapping her wrists like she was about to steal a piece of candy or worse.
    Nick P–I am sorry you have not had a better experience of Church. There are connections out there, just maybe not in the usual places.

61. Kara Kittle on 29 Mar 2009 at 8:23 am #

    All,
    If we go to church as a Calvinist it’s because God made us want to, therefore going to church is not considered work on our part. If you are Pentecostal and go to church it’s because you want to, but there may be days when you don’t feel like it. If you go to church because you are a Methodist it’s because it’s tradition. And other reasons for other people.

    But can’t we just go to church out the simple joy of getting the opportunity to praise and worship the Lord? No one should be forced to go to church, it is something you should do willingly and gladly. And as much as one says that you can do it in coffee shops and home, you were already supposed to be doing that anyway. There is a specialness to going to church. I like going to church but miss sometimes because of health problems and then I do miss it. I want to feel the fellowship of the other believers, and with God and I want to be filled from that well so during the week I can draw on it.

62. cheryl u on 29 Mar 2009 at 9:18 am #

    Everyone,

    First of all, I want to thank all of those here that have offered me encouragement.

    Secondly, to all of you that insist I absolutely have to go to church no matter what, can you tell me what you do with this particular Scripture? “Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.” Romans 16:17

63. Chad Winters on 29 Mar 2009 at 10:17 am #

    Mary: did you read the article?

64. Mary on 29 Mar 2009 at 2:37 pm #

    I do believe God allows us to encounter life situations, people and circumstances to show us what we are made of. He knows it, but He wants us to know it as well.
    Yes, Chad, I read the article and I understand the variety of reasons AND excuses we come up with to avoid showing the love of and for Christ. I believe in the concept of coming together and being built up for the purpose of witnessing to the lost, those who have never trusted Jesus as Savior. The difficulty with church today is the tares that have grown up with the wheat, thus the disconnect for those looking for Jesus. Church today needs individuals, elect and chosen of God, who are willing to PERSEVERE and wait upon the Almighty to do what He says to do. Unfortunately, we can become self-absorbed and the discomfort and PAIN is often unbearable.
    Church CAN be a place of bearing a cross (so to speak) when we go for the wrong reasons. But it can be within the will of God to stay and be used of Him to minister to those who He is calling to Himself . And, of course, we must be ready to be used for His glory at any time.

    Cheryl, once again, I encourage you to seek the Lord and not man in this situation. I find it ironic, you quote from this chapter and Paul is giving instruction to people of God in THE CHURCH. In fact much of Scripture deals with the manner people should conduct themselves in the church. The problem is, these instructions are not heeded, or are they evidently considered worthy of our attention since we seem bent on leaving because of the power other men/women seem to have over us. The majority of people will consider the general consensus to be accurate…this is called the broad road. The Scripture you referenced is clear, be careful what you listen to.

    Listen, I struggle with this as well. I have seen the days when I was almost suicidal in this struggle. I battle with the disappointments and discouragements too. BUT, we do not battle with flesh and blood and our weapons are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds, those thought patterns that cause division and turn our vision from the prize of the high calling of the Lord Jesus.

    I will ask a question…if we aren’t going to church, are we joining the ranks of the world? If we lose the physical or even mental ability to intentionally come together for the purpose of worshipping Jesus Christ, who, by the way, went to the temple regularly, what do we do? Whatever we think is right in our own mind? Is it left up to us to decide? Of course it is! But in order to make a good decision, as godly people, we need good information. Where does that information come from? You don’t need to follow my instruction, but you do need to seek the will of God and then obey Him.

65. cheryl u on 29 Mar 2009 at 3:24 pm #

    Mary,

    You said, “I find it ironic, you quote from this chapter and Paul is giving instruction to people of God in THE CHURCH.”

    EXACTLY, and what was he telling those people?? MARK and AVOID those that are causing devisions and offences contrary to the doctrine you have been taught. If the ones causing those problems are the ones in the church, particularly in the leadership, how in the world are we to avoid them by sitting in the pews under their leadership and being subject to them as the Bible teaches? I think you maybe missed my point 100%.

    And since this is a verse in the Bible I am listening to, what makes you think I am listening to other men or women? Indeed most men and women are trying to make me feel like I have committed a very drastic sin by not going to church at this time.

    And if you have read all of my comments, you know that I said I realize this is not an ideal situation. However, I haven’t found any practical solutions at this time either.

66. cheryl u on 29 Mar 2009 at 4:10 pm #

    Mary,

    I also want to ask you a question here. Have you read what Paul said is the purpose of the church recently? (I Corinthians 14) He said all things are to be done for edification–building up, and so that all may learn and be encouraged.

    That doesn’t at all sound like going to church is meant to be a burden we are given to bear! And you say you have been almost suicidal in your struggle with all of this at times?!? It sounds like your church is doing an absolutely horrific job of fulfilling the job description given it by the Apostle Paul. So what are you doing in that particular place anyway?

    I think that we as a church in this country have somehow gotten the idea that the only reasons God calls us together is to worship Him or to be a servant. These aspects that Paul talks so strongly about in I Corinthians are totally ignored. And in fact we are often told that if we expect a church to meet those needs we are just being “selfish” or “self absorbed.” I think the Apostle would likely be absolutely appalled by the condition of a very large share of the church in this country today.

67. Mary on 29 Mar 2009 at 10:04 pm #

    Dear Cheryl,
    One day , and I believe very soon, we will have crossed the threshold, from the church to THE CHURCH and all will be perfected. However, until then, we live in a world dominated by corruption due to the influence and corruption of sin. As a result, we are in constant struggle and, unfortunately, as painful as it is, this struggle is within us. This battle is in our minds and the intensity of the fight lies within our heart. The Bible tells us our hearts are desperately wicked, the natural tendencies are not to submit to the struggle, but rather to resist it. Struggle expends precious energy, oftentimes resulting in great fear, anger, and ,of course, pain. In our self-sufficient society, we are taught to react to this struggle with forcefulness in an effort to preserve what we think we have rights to. We also have the tendency to leave God out of the equation, as if He has turned His back on us and left us in this battle alone. Maybe He is appalled that I am struggling with this, or, He is appalled at how everyone else is making things so difficult for me. I agree with you that the Apostle Paul would be appalled and if you go on over into 2Corinthians, notice, he is all but threatening them with sharp discipline, for good reason. So you see, the church became a mess almost right away. People have to be taught the ways of God. It does not happen through osmosis. Unfortunately, in many cases, groups of people calling themselves Christians, have come together to worship their own personal Jesus; someone to fulfill their hopes and dreams and make them happy. In this pursuit of personal happiness, the Son of the Living God gets pushed to the side and personal agendas take the forefront. God forgive us and help us return to our first love…the One who loved us BEFORE we loved Him. This is a greater matter than to goto church or not. I don;t hear anyone asking if what they do is glorifying God before a world that is perishing! I will pray for the Lord’s prompting as you seek Him.
    “But I, through the abundance of your steadfast love,
    will enter your house,
    I will bow down toward your holy temple in awe of you.
    Lead me, o Lord, in your righteousness because of my enemies;
    make your way straight before me.” Psalm 5:7-8

68. mbaker on 30 Mar 2009 at 9:11 pm #

    This has been a very interesting discussion, with many points of view.

    I have to agree with what Cheryl and Michael have said. Many of the churches in our culture have abandoned the biblical roles they were meant to fulfill.

    The shepherds in many cases rule over the sheep like monarchs, as if their flock were meant to serve them, instead of walking among them and tenderly caring for them like real shepherds, like the Lord Jesus does.

    Then. there is the very real problem of pop theology, which doesn’t follow the Bible, but the trends of our culture.

    I can understand the frustration of Cheryl and others here who have known what a real biblical church was like, and refuse to settle for less. Why should they have to?

    Even in a big city, it took us almost two years to find a church whose pastor preached out of the Word. We were shocked to find he is the exception these days rather than the rule!

69. Mike on 08 Apr 2009 at 2:35 pm #

    I spent the better part of a year mostly unable to attend church while desperately wanting to do so. It’s absolutely wonderful that the Internet provided some sense of being able to get a little bit of what I could not have gotten otherwise. At the same time, it’s no substitute for the real thing.

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