Interesting topic. I’ve been busy for a couple of days, so I’m a little behind.

I think JohnFOM makes a good observation. Personally, I think it’s a little of both.

Could it be there are two scenario’s ?
1) The ones that have lived / grown up in a Church community and
2) The new believers

1) The ones that have lived / grown up in a Church community.
Step one: Discouragement
Step two: Disillusionment
Step three: Anger
Step four: Doubt
Step five: Departure
I think those would follow the pattern as indicated by JohnFOM. Our Church communities have really become social organizations (on which I’m writing a separate article). The Agape/love we are being called to share with one another is quite often far from the daily reality of our fellow believers. Being Christian has become a social acceptance phenomenon, at least in Dallas and other areas of the south, more so than a conscious decision. But since there seems to be a lack of loving fellowship with other members of the Church community, once trouble hits the discouragement settles in. One becomes discouraged because of the loss of a job, the illness or passing away of a loved one, and few fellow Church members reach out to help, console, love or support the one suffering. The discouragement can quickly lead to becoming disillusioned with the community in which the person has invested so much “time”. Never realizing the time and effort invested was little more than a superficial Sunday morning attendance. From there the path to anger, doubt and departure are small steps.
I think we can turn this tide by engaging with people outside of the Sunday morning worship time. It is no wonder that so many Fellowship / Bible Churches are emphasizing mid-week study groups, small fellowship groups, men’s accountability groups, etc.. I creates a bond above and beyond the Sunday morning worship time. In times of need, hurt or grief, these bonds provide friendship and networks that truly demonstrate the Christian agape to the fellow believers.

2) The new believers.
Step one: Doubt
Step two: Discouragement
Step three: Disillusionment
Step four: Apathy
Step five: Departure
I do think these are more likely to follow the path CMP has laid out. Once the new believer has “come to the altar call” or “accepted Christ”, too often they become a “notch on a belt” somewhere and are left to fetch for themselves. But once a new believer has come to Christ, they are “babies” in their faith. They need someone to nurture them to the point where they can digest solid foods. Paul makes enough references to that. As the new believer goes back to their normal social environment, which is very often non-believing, they are confronted with tough questions that they very often don’t have an answer to. Some examples may include things like “Do you really believe that this guy Jesus was God ?”, “What’s this Trinity thing all about ?”, “I’m a good person, are you really saying I am going to hell ?”,etc etc… Since the new believer is too often left to fetch for him/her self, they are on unaccustomed terrain and don’t know how to respond to these questions and challenges. This may lead to doubt that they may have gotten it wrong after all. They become discouraged that they don’t know everything and can’t defend their faith properly to those contenders. When they reach out to other believers for help, do we give them a book ? Or an article ? Or tell them to pray ? All good things, but how often do we suggest we go with them to answer the questions ? Offer to answer the questions for him or her ? Indicate that “Look, I realize that you are young in your faith. And these are tough questions that took me a while to figure out as well. It’s not fair that they should put you on the spot. Would you like me to come with you and help you answer these questions ?” Or perhaps even set up a little session with the new believer to go through a series ? (The “Tough Questions” series is a pretty good one for that).

How do we solve this ?
I don’t have a magic wand or a magic answer. And I am far from a solid theologian, but can share an opinion or observation or two. I think the answers were given before, yet vary depending on whom we are dealing with. I think the summarized answer would be captured by one word:

Commitment.
Commitment of time to fellow believers to show we care and love and support them above and beyond the Sunday morning worship. Go to lunch with a fellow Christian, go to breakfast (if you’re a morning person). Meet for coffee. Just show we care by spending time. Ask if they want to talk. Offer help if they are in some kind of straights. Or just offer a listening ear. It would save them the cost of a counselor
Commitment to new believers. Some kind of “buddy” system. Companies do it nowadays for new hires to make the new employee become familiar with the ins and outs of the company. Why wouldn’t we as Christians do the same ? Help them become familiar with our faith. Train them, help them answer questions. This could fall under the category of “education”.

Yet, commitment takes time. And we have so very precious little of it. Pray that we may find the time to increase our commitment of Agape to our fellow Christians.

Any comments ? Do I have it completely wrong ? Am I too pessimistic ? Feel free to set me straight !

In Him
Mick

I’m still stuggling with one of the foundational presuppositions in both the post and the meta here… that the leaving of the church equals the leaving of the faith. The title of the post is about leaving the church, the body of the post is about leaving the faith.

I know, I know, the post is about people being de-baptised, thereby renouncing thier association with the church, and many of those will be doing so as a protest against thier ‘brainwashing’ in thier childhood and the associated unchosen inclusion into the church, but there is another reason, especially in the UK, to become de-baptised.

It is a political decision. In the UK, more so than in the US, the church is intrinsic to politics. Bishops sit in the political upper house, the head of state is the head of the state church as well. The numbers ‘on the roll’ of the church help to determine the political power the church can exert. If it is the baptism roll that is used to count the numbers (officially or unofficially) then the Church of England may be able to exert more power than would be entitled to based on numbers actually associated with that church.

I know of some Baptists, Pentecostals, Independent, etc, church goers who have or are going to download the debaptism certificate and check the wording to see if that is a way to remove themselves from contributing to the political sway of the Church of England. I suspect there well be a significant proportion (by no means a majority, but a not insignificant number) of people who have changed denominations doing that.

They haven’t left faith, but they have left the Church of England.

Michael , I couldn’t agree more. Our churches are starved to death for doctrine . Even those who think they want something else. When a child of God gets a taste of what the deep truths of God can do for the sheer enjoyment factor of God , they will only want more.

I am a little confused though concerning your approach to those who abandon the faith. This is all connected (and you have aluded to POS) to Perserverence of the saints. (which you will note from other posts I do not hold to—-remember I’m the 3 pt Calvinist. Eteranl Security —yes. POS—No) Now that we are clear.
In your opinion are those leaving still part of the fold regardless of whether or not they return. Or have they never been saved to begin with? I’m reminded of the lady you mentioned in one of your videos from your child hood who was such an encouragement to you and yet she struggeld with an alcoholic husband for so long that she finally gave up and joined him in his alcoholism. (tragic, sad story)
If you believe these people are not true believers then they don’t need the be discipled they need a clearer presentation of the gospel and ultimately an effectual call from God. I agree with someones previous comment that this is all so subjective.

Michael , even though I know you and I will probably never agree on some of these issues please know that I hold you in high regard.(and we do agree on MOST everything) Thanks so much for your ministry.

Dozie,

Your mental image of Luther and Protestantism is a sorry caricature, not too unlike the mental image of Catholicism which many Protestants have.

There is no Protestant ideal of “I am the final authority”, the Protestant ideal being rather “Sola Scriptura”.

What is your authority? It can’t be the Pope, because he has a much more positive view of Luther.

This was thought provoking.

I believe that the reason “believers” leave is because they signed on to a moral lifestyle…they agreed with an ideology. Jesus is a magnetic personality afterall and the clearness of His call for radical differentness is appealing to many who feel lost in the masses. But unless a person truly sits with Christ and has an actual personal encounter on a regular basis, it is easy to fall away. I have loved Jesus from childhood. I could not walk away from Him…as Peter said “Where else would I go?” So I too am on the verge of tears when I hear of those who thought they were true followers and chose to walk away. It is very hard to convince those who go through the stages from doubt to desertion, that Jesus is worth a second chance.

We are just beginning to witness the impact of what Luther did. He officialized rebellion in Christianity. With Luther Christianity started winding down. At the moment, Christianity, as far as I see it, is in the “Going Out of Business”, thanks to Luther and the Protestant ideal of “I am the final authority”. I regret it is turning out this way, but this is where Christianity is now. Nothing will stop the tide and those who wish to remain Christian will have to run to the caves to practice their religion. There is nothing in this culture that is Christian – not the workplace, not the internet, not the television, not government, not the schools, not the language, not the movies. People are looking for a sign there is God somewhere, all they get is senseless defense of God who is by all human senses, absent. Yes, all we have are our human senses.

I don’t think that Genesis, correctly understood, is at all disproven by science (and I’m no young earther).

But on to other matters.

In looking at why people leave the church, one has to think about at how God would have us respond to it, especially from a TULIP Calvinist viewpoint. From a TULIP perspective, what God does and what we do in relation to someone leaving the church is purely coincidental. What we do does not in any way affect or determine whether someone leaves the church / faith. God elects who he elects and the elect will be in the new heaven and earth regardless of what we do, and the non-elect will never be. Both of those actions (leaving the church, relating to someone who is leaving) are caused by a third: God. God determines who stays in and God determines how we relate to those who leave. We witness to, talk with, empathize with, etc. those who are thinking of leaving because God in his Word tells us to, not because what we do will affect their salvation. That is, a TULIP’s motivation is directed toward God and his commands and not toward changing the other person. Only God changes the other person (irresistably, if God wants him/her in His kingdom), or leaves him unelected (in which case nothing can change their mind). What we do is incidental, and for our benefit and the glory of God. We might be an instrument (like a baseball bat) that God uses, but our personal and particular involvement is neither necessary nor sufficient to change whether someone leaves the church.

In short, it doesn’t matter what we do in terms of whether some leave or stary. What we do will not change who God has foreordained. It only matters what we do in relation to what God has commanded we do. Changing our education program will not change the numbers of people who leave or stay, nor will it change what people do with their doubts. From a TULIP perspective, it only matters if our education programme conforms to what is revealed in God’s word–if it conforms then it glorifies God and it does not matter how many stay or leave. Those who leave may claim that they left because the teaching was bad, or they did not have their doubts effectively responded to, but in reality they left because they were not elect in the first place.

All of which further illustrates why so many (including early church writers) reject TULIP Calvinist understanding of the relationship between God and humankind.

regards,
John

Could one of the reasons people are leaving the faith be that science (name the field) has all but disproven the first book of the bible?

It kind of puts a few holes in the later books since they are all founded upon Genesis, which is harder and harder to take seriously in any kind of intellectual way.

Mike B.

There is perhaps a more militant, and to my mind more worrisome, order for the stages that I have observed. The order is:

Step one: Discouragement
Step two: Disillusionment
Step three: Anger
Step four: Doubt
Step five: Departure

This is a process in which the church is an active agent in a person leaving thier faith, in which the weeds of the parable of the sower is the church as it presents itself.

What to do though? Still trying to work that through with some folk I know.

John from DownUnder writes,

But here’s what I struggle with: If you’re a TULIPian Calvinist why does it matter why they walk away? They were not part of the elect to begin with. And if they were never saved and elected by God, it doesn’t matter what the reasons behind their departure are. If God never granted them saving grace to believe and persevere, regardless of how much we improve or refine “Evangelical faith” they’ll never make it anyway.

I think this reflects the fact that Evangelicals of all stripes are too pre-occupied with the question of salvation to the exclusion of everything else.

Someone can, to our perception, walk away even though he is part of the elect and will eventually be saved. In the meantime, he is walking through a God-less, Christ-less wilderness, and we should not be concerned?

That is not the attitude I hope we take towards our brothers and sisters who are struggling and going through tough times, especially as the chances are good that faults of the church contributed to driving such a person away from the church and the faith.

One of my problems with Calvinism as it manifests itself much of the time is precisely the fact that it leads to speculation of who is and who isn’t part of the elect, based on what we, as humans, can observe. But our perception is incorrigibly flawed, we “see through a glass darkly” and we really have no way of knowing, this side of eternity, whether someone else is part of the elect and saved.

And to come back to the question of the church’s culpability in driving people away from the faith: we had better find out what we are doing wrong, and with God’s help fix it, because I believe that Ezekiel 3:17 ff applies here, and even though a person may not be part of the elect, and is responsible for his own decisions, we, as the church, will be held accountable for the warnings we did or did not give, and for the way our warnings were credible or not because of what our lives reflect. And of course Jesus had something to say about being a stumbling block, too.