Does Religion Cause Violence?
Mark Juergensmeyer’s book Terror in the Mind of God claims that religion is violent by nature. It tends to “absolutize and to project images of cosmic war”—even if the ultimate goal is peace and order. To prevent violence and bloodshed to get to this point, religion needs the tempering influence of “rationality and fair play that Enlightenment values give to civil society” (U Cal Press, 2000 [242, 159, 243]).
Three years earlier, Regina Schwartz wrote about the “violent legacy of monotheism” (which includes Judaism, Islam, and Christianity) in the book The Curse of Cain (University of Chicago Press, 1997). Belief in one God and exclusive truth claims will mean that those embracing the “one true God” will reject, hate, and remove all who do not embrace their God or worldview (63). It creates an “us-them” mentality. To preserve our identity and religious purity, they must be removed.
The “New Atheists” make the same sorts of claims. Indeed, they have been emboldened by the September 11 terrorist attacks to launch an all-out rhetorical assault on religious belief—an effort that has a religious zeal all its own!
Have these 9/11 attacks vindicated the claims of Juergensmeyer and Schwartz? Yale theologian Mirsoslav Volf’s 2008 essay “Christianity and Violence” offers a superb response to such criticisms. (It was published in War in the Bible and Violence in the Twenty-First Century, eds. Richard S. Hess and Elmer A. Martens [Eisenbrauns]). I’ll follow his discussion as well as offer some of my own comments.
For starters, we’re not denying that the Crusades, Inquisition, and Europe’s religious wars are a tragedy in the history of Christendom. But do these events reflect the essence of Christianity? Why pick these anti-Christian events as the focal point of one’s criticism? Why not look at the example of Jesus—not to mention Francis of Assisi, Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Teresa, and other Christian peacemakers? Indeed, violence carried out in Jesus’ name flies in the face of Jesus’ own teaching and example.
In fact, we could argue that we don’t need less religion and more “Enlightenment values” (do we want to talk about the barbarity of the French Revolution here?). Actually, properly understood, we need more religion, not less—namely, a truly Christian world- and life-view to bring genuine peace to humans. While the apostle Paul talks about warfare, he refers to spiritual warfare in Ephesians 6. But this war doesn’t require earthly weapons (2 Cor. 10:4). The kind of conquest he calls for is overcoming evil with good (Rom. 12:21).
Now some have claimed that Jesus’ crucifixion justifies violence or even passivity in the face of injustice. A closer look at Scripture hardly justifies this outlook. Consider 1 Peter 2:21-25:
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Jesus isn’t the passive victim on the cross. Rather, Jesus lays down his life of his own accord (Jn. 10:18). Nor is this an instance of divine child abuse, as some conclude. No, the crucifixion is part of the predetermined plan of the Triune God—Father, Son, and Spirit—each of whom shares in this suffering and reconciling work (2 Cor. 5:19). In Jesus’ weakness, he actually conquers sin and the powers of darkness (Jn. 12:31; Col. 2:15). According to John’s Gospel, Jesus moment of being “lifted up” or “glorified” comes in the hour of God’s great humiliation. Rather than thinking of the crucifixion as the absence of God—with the darkening skies and the cry of dereliction (“My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?”)—this is actually the moment when God’s presence is most evident (compare the darkening skies at Mt. Sinai!). God’s great moment in history comes when all seems lost, when God seems defeated. God’s glory is revealed in God’s self-humiliation.
What about Schwartz’s claim that monotheism leads to violence? It’s hard to see how God’s oneness could lead to violence in itself. As Volf argues, if one gets rid of monotheism, “the division and violence between ‘us’ and ‘them’ hardly disappears” (8). During the first centuries of church history, Christians were viewed by Roman polytheistic, emperor-worshiping pagans as atheists (one God is close enough to atheism!). It was precisely because they were “monotheists” that they were singled out for attack. Beyond this, whether religious or not, history (not to mention tomorrow’s headlines) reveals one tribe warring against another—including the polytheists and the animists. And why not talk about politics and political abuses of religion or tribalistic mindsets that tend to create violence? Why monotheism per se?
Schwartz’s problem is that she hasn’t taken the doctrine of the Trinity seriously enough. The triune God is not self-enclosed, but graciously creates human beings to share in his life, joy, and goodness. God is indeed humble and other-centered, serving his creatures and showing kindness to all (Mt. 5:45). Someone may object: “Isn’t there the doctrine of hell—the ultimate exclusion? Why doesn’t God show absolute hospitality to all without exclusion? Isn’t this the truly peaceful alternative?
Volf comments that “absolute hospitality” becomes difficult when the unrepentant perpetrators sit down with their unhealed, violated victims. Such perverse view of hospitality would actually “enthrone violence because it would leave the violators unchanged and the consequences of violence unremedied” (13). C.S. Lewis uses different language to say the same sort of thing:
I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully “All will be saved.” But my reason retorts, “Without their will, or with it?” If I say “Without their will” I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say “With their will,” my reason replies “How if they will not give in?” (The Problem of Pain [Macmillan, 1962], 13).
No, the problem isn’t religion—although lots of religiously inspired actions are certainly perverse and grotesque. And what about violent horrors committed in the name of atheism? The New Atheists seem to quietly side-step this issue. (I once heard Daniel Dennett—a new atheist—declare that Josef Stalin was a religious-like figure, as though this somehow gets Stalin’s atheistic worldview off the hook!)
Properly understood, the Christian faith (and not some generic category called “religion”), with its doctrine of the self-giving and other-centered Trinity, is actually a beacon of hope for peacemaking and reconciliation (Rom. 5:6-11; Eph. 2:14-17). Some may refuse to participate and continue the conflict, but that is not the fault of the Christian faith.
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Parchment and Pen » Does Religion Cause Violence? | www.christianevents.ca on 12 Feb 2009 at 4:46 pm #
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DR. Paul W. Foltz on 12 Feb 2009 at 5:18 pm #
First of all The Christian Faith is NOT A RELIGION, Having said that, I say, Religion does cause violence.
More lives have been wiped out, more homes destroyed, more women raped, in the name of religion than for anything else.
Religion is of the devil. It is Satan’s ace trump. It is man trying to save
himself.
Christianity is God saving dead, doomed sinners, by his grace, without
any merit or effort by man.
dac on 12 Feb 2009 at 5:23 pm #
Dr. Paul
You are factually wrong
Stalin/Mao/Hitler/Pol Pot, just themselves, in the past 100 years, have killed more than all “religions” ever
Troy Pearsall on 12 Feb 2009 at 10:58 pm #
Violence is not a product of religion, makes no difference if we call Christianity a religion or not, my response is the same. Violence (including violence on a large scale) is a product of one man in authority coming to an erred conclusion.
When on man is given unaccountable authority people die. It makes no difference if his perceived reason is paranoia, history, glory or God, the results are always the same.
If we could go into the meetings the of less defined causes of war we would see unequivocally, one man’s warped ideal effecting the life of many.
Jason C on 13 Feb 2009 at 2:02 am #
Like most atheist writers in this area Mark Juergensmeyer is simply a liar. Vox Day more than adequately demonstrates in his book The Irrational Atheist that religion of any sort is almost immaterial in regards to being responsible for war and violence.
Religion was responsible for a mere 7% of wars throughout recorded history, and the majority of those were from the Islamic religion.
The Spanish Inquisition over a period of 350 years was responsible for the deaths of less than 3500 people. As a comparison Vox pointed to children’s bicycles, which have roughly the same annual mortality in America as the “horrendous” Spanish Inquisition.
“Religion causes violence” is just a soundbite from yet another atheistic writer incapable of even the most basic research.
JohnFOM on 13 Feb 2009 at 6:47 am #
Does religion cause violence?
This is a qualitative, not a quantitative question. Unfortunately the ‘but other things cause more killings’ argument irrelevant. If it is true that ‘religion was responsible for a mere 7% of wars’ then that proves the point that religion was responsible for violence, i.e. it caused the violence of 7% of wars. It doesn’t matter that Stalin et. al. killed ‘more’. We can only say ‘Yes, religion does cause violence, and these other things do too’.
IF religion is defined as the devotional and ritual observances designed to reinforce beliefs, and the beliefs it reinforces are exclusivity (the obedient believers are good, others are not) and purity (must remove what is ‘not good) without a strong adherance to a belief that mitigates exclusivity (eg. passivism, non-violence, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, freedom of expression: see romans 14) then religion does lead to violence.
For exclusivity without mitigation it is unthinkable that you should allow impurity to go unchecked. You must drive the infidel out of the holy city, you must get rid of those who don’t acknowledge the the one true god, you must put away the one who does not listen to the creator’s prophet or, even worse, does violence to that prophet.
Does it necessarilly lead to violence in every case? No
Does religion as presented above logically lead to violence? Yes
Does history have instances where it has? Yes
God, of course, knew what he was doing when he placed passages like ‘Do not judge, or you too will be judged’ (Matt 7:1) in proximity with the wide and narrow gates (Matt 7:13-14). An emphasis on the exclusivity will, and has historically, lead to violence.
Firespeaks on 13 Feb 2009 at 8:12 am #
I think we are associating the war with religion which is wrong, Christianity does not profess hate but in order to have war we must have hate.
I once heard a gun advocate say guns don’t kill, people do. His argument is that there must be a prerequisite to kill in the heart of a man before the gun could be used for killing.
This is true of war also there must be a passion for hate, a desire for, filthy lucre, or some other motivation for war to happen.
And Christianity does not teach any of these behaviors, therefore these holy wars so to speak, are not a product of religion they are a product of men.
We must stop blaming God for man’s behaviors.
Take the 911 attacks even though these men say they did this in the name of God they already had a hatred for Americans, and that hatred is the origin of the attack not God.
Scott Ferguson on 13 Feb 2009 at 9:22 am #
Religion has abetted war. Politics has abetted war. Ideology has abetted war. Nationalism has abetted war. The causes of war reside deep in our Human Nature. Any available ideal can forced into service of nature, for good or ill. I do not see religion as especially apt to the task but neither do I see it as especially immune. I am an atheist but i think the so-called New Atheists completely miss the point. The New Age movement, Astrology and Aryanism have all shown that human weaknesses, like the magical thinking exhibited by all three, would live on without religion. God did some quality work when he invented human faults!
Personally, I ignore books that claim religion is guilty of this or that crime. WE are guilty, period. The sooner we recognize this fact the sooner we can try to mitigate the effects of our own flawed nature.
ScottL on 13 Feb 2009 at 12:49 pm #
Trying to show the invalidity of Christianity (or religion in general) through the violence that has been caused is just as bad as a Christian trying to show atheism is invalid because of the violence that has come through it. I think we all see that there are bigger things to discuss here than blaming violence on a particular belief (religious or not).
Dr. Paul Foltz -
No doubt the typical evangelical response is that Christianity is not a religion. I think it depends on how we want to define the word. In your mind, the word means, ‘earning our way to God’. And because Christianity teaches we cannot earn or merit our way to God, then Christianity is not a religion. But if the word ‘religion’ is held in its proper place, with a larger holistic understanding of the word, then it simply means the duties of one’s belief which they walk out in response to the teachings and commands of their God. That is what we do as Christ-followers. We are committed to walking in the things that He has asked us, or at least I hope that is our desire. We don’t have to get too scared of the word. Matter of fact, James, brother of Jesus, said it this was:
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. (James 1:27)
I, myself, try and steer clear of the word ‘religion’ because it does have a lot of baggage. But the word does not have to be scary if we keep it in its proper perspective.
Jason C on 13 Feb 2009 at 12:59 pm #
JohnFOM, atheists of the above kind attribute the majority of violence and war to religion, that is they do have a quantitative argument. Showing that only 7% of wars had their roots in religious beliefs does show their argument to be worthless.
Showing that atheist utopians like Stalin were killers on a level that no religious individual ever matched (Charles IX of France murdered 10,000 of his fellow Frenchmen which makes him the worst Christian ruler on record in regards to killing those he governed) shows that the atheistic argument that removing religion reduces violence is sorely mistaken.
A qualitative argument that many things can provide justification for violence, including religion, requires a subtly of thought lacking in many; and would require acknowledgement of their own fallibility, something that doesn’t sit well with those with enough ego to write a book about how bad religion is.
Scott, you are quite insightful. To quote Scripture, you are not far from the kingdom of Heaven.
C. Barton on 13 Feb 2009 at 3:11 pm #
I agree with the above, in that if religion were removed from the earth men would still kill, merely in the name of something else: politics, maybe, or evolution (which was a basis for Hitler’s “Final Solution”).
It is good to keep straight on who kills the most, but neither side is justified by comparison of numbers. This whole argument, as I see it, is one big straw man – we need unity in love of God throughout the whole earth to insure peace, and that is what both sides, humanist or deist, are saying. Hey, guys, we agree on something! For the humanist it is the one world government and one world religion; for the Christian, it is unity in Christ, whose miraculous resurrection makes us all of one family of believers – think of it! He has “broken down every wall . . .”, meaning that every barrier of hatred, arrogance, jealousy, or prejudice has been dissolved in God’s love. What could be more peace-loving than that?
Bear in mind also that hypocitical religious motives have always been favorites in political propaganda, especially in times of war. Simply because religion was a means to an end does not condemn any practice of faith per se.
CT on 13 Feb 2009 at 8:13 pm #
There are some elements in the religious faith of some Christians that do engender, or at least facilitate, a readiness for war. For a Christian to deny this would probably be a manifestation of one such element.
Firespeaks on 13 Feb 2009 at 8:28 pm #
CT,
I could say that I’m right in disagreeing with you, and anyone that says I’m not is proof that I really I’m.
And if you think my post is not well thought out then……
I know you are, but what am I?
CT on 13 Feb 2009 at 9:21 pm #
Firespeaks, are you trying to find a clever way to affirm that there are no elements in the religious faith of some Christians that engender, or at least facilitate, a readiness for war?
What would lead you to maintain such a robust and optimistic view?
CT on 13 Feb 2009 at 9:25 pm #
The “some” in the first sentence in comment 14 should of course be “any”.
Jason C on 14 Feb 2009 at 10:22 pm #
Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
Since I don’t know all Christians I can’t say that some wouldn’t practise the Church militant.
However I do not find a willingness to fight to be a weakness. As the story goes, we sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the darkness to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
I can say adherence to the teaching and example of Jesus and his disciples would lead people to restrain themselves from violence under normal circumstances. I don’t have a problem with engaging in violence for defence of self, family, friends and homeland but that’s not the normal situation.
Twenty Items of Interest (v.46) | Caffeinated Thoughts on 16 Feb 2009 at 1:42 am #
[...] 20. Does religion cause violence? [...]
Novan Leon on 17 Feb 2009 at 12:26 pm #
Does religion cause violence?
The question is silly.
Violence is caused by human action based on human decisions. Humans base their decisions on any number of different things, and the specific motivators behind any decision are simply unknowable. We can make an educated guess and speculate on the probability that X was a motivator of Y, but ultimately there’s no way of knowing for sure, there are just too many possible factors at play. Regardless, religion can’t directly cause anything, it merely acts as a motivator. Religion may be a motivator for some people to participate in violent activity, but religion can’t reasonably be considered a direct cause of violence. Ultimately the cause of violence is a conscious or instinctive decision to take violent action. Why people choose to take violent action is a huge question in-and-of itself.
The real trick with motivators is that they’re not necessarily logical. The fact that I have a red pen on my desk could conceivably be a motivator to take violent action given the right circumstance.
Does the presence of religious belief among a populace statistically increase the likelihood of violence?
I would say no.
Paul Copan on 21 Feb 2009 at 6:50 am #
Thanks to you all for your response to my post. In my title, I deliberately used using the generic category “religion” in light of the sweeping assertions commonly made by, say, the new atheists. Yes, Christianity is technically a “religion” (threskeia) as James and Paul in Acts affirm, but Jesus is also utterly unique. “Religion” can be an unhelpful category in that religions can be lumped together without differentiation. (For example, I discuss in my book *When God Goes to Starbucks* significant differences between the killing of the Canaanites and Islamic jihad. I go into more details in the next issue of Philosophia Christi [www.epsociety.org]–stay tuned!)
Yes, the problem of violence is one of the human heart, and I have elsewhere written that atheists have been responsible for the worst atrocities known to humankind–a point that the new atheists conveniently ignore in their attacks against “religion.”
‘Not much more to add than what has been said. Thanks again for your engaging interaction!
Susan on 21 Feb 2009 at 11:58 am #
Good mornin’, Paul!
I haven’t had a chance to fully digest this yet, but I figured you probably covered this in your good book *When God Goes to Starbucks*. So, I peeked at the table of contents a couple of days ago…. and, sure enough, there it is! Sorry, I haven’t gotten that far yet….
BUT, I will say that I am eager to have some good answers in mind regarding this issue, because this DID in fact come up in a discussion I had not long ago with an Atheist neighbor. I think his words were something to the effect that “Religion is good if it makes people kinder to those in need, BUT Religion has caused a lot of war and violence too”.
Thanks again Paul! I’ll wade through this at another time….. but for now, I must get my son to his tennis lesson!
Paul Copan on 23 Feb 2009 at 8:30 am #
Thanks, Susan. I do cover some of this in my Starbucks book, but I’m actually developing a chapter for a forthcoming book on the more general topic of war and religion.
If you have any more specific questions on this topic, let me know.
Blessings,
Paul
Firespeaks on 23 Feb 2009 at 10:03 am #
Mr.Paul Copan;
You wrote “Yes, the problem of violence is one of the human heart, and I have elsewhere written that atheists have been responsible for the worst atrocities known to humankind–a point that the new atheists conveniently ignore in their attacks against “religion.”
The point of atheists atrocities is very well hidden. I have never heard of any or did not know the background.
Is there any suggested reading that you would recommend on this subject of atheists atrocities?
C. Barton on 23 Feb 2009 at 4:10 pm #
If I may post one more . . . Jesus told us that His words were meant to be tried out – it isn’t enough just to read and even understand, but to put them into action; and as the well-known verse says, ” . . . THEN . . . the Truth shall set you free”. And that’s kind-of the irony of keeping the really good silver in the cabinet – yes, it is of great value, but no one gets served!
Dan Powers on 23 Feb 2009 at 5:17 pm #
Paul,
You have some interesting discussions going on here on this subject of religion and violence. It seems that some of what it missing is the nature of man. The Bible says that the heart is wicked. I believe it was Thomas Hobbes’ that described man as a brute beast, which the 20th century certainly has proven to be true.
I see the problem as men lusting for power and wealth. This lust affects men of high and low position. You have seen it in world leaders through out history. You also see it on a daily basis in your local churches and organizations. Leadership at the local level general do not make national or international news. Yet, everyone knows the pastor or deacons who ruled the church based on their views and not on Scripture. They punish and hurt members more mentally than physically. All done in the name of God, though God never authorized it.
The leadership eventually equates their will with the will of God or the organization and at times they may believe that they are god. This is but the beginning of the corruption and oppression. Once the leader starts doing this, they seek justification for their motives with what they see as authoritative sources. These sources can be their own superior intellect or some sacred text. Armed with their authority, they then see others as being lesser than themselves and thus in need of correction, which provides the justification for genocide. An equal would not need to be corrected.
We cannot forget the element of fear. Men and governments fear the loss the power. This threat, the loss of power, threatens their world and their peace. Thus, all threats real or imagined must be dealt with to maintain the existing order. Since the enemy is always some how a lesser being then the establishment, no rules need to be applied to restraint as long as it preserves the existing order.
Even a utilitarian view can be perverted to justify genocide. The utility value for the use and enslavement of a race or person is justified because it servers the greater good of the whole. Again, these people are always seen as something lesser than the norm and therefore can be exploited.
So, as to the question “does religion cause violence?” The short answer would be no. Men may use it as a basis for justification, but other men use other sources for justification.
scott gray on 07 Mar 2009 at 12:31 pm #
paul–
if you’re still following this thread…
the question ‘does christianity cause violence’ is at once too broad and too narrow. so the wrestle you’re presenting is interesting, but too light.
a slightly different set of questions:
under what conditions does christianity expect/ initiate/ promote/ sustain/ quell/ quench: hot war/ cold war/ cold peace/ hot peace? i’d be inclined to set up a matrix with the intersections of each pair: ‘expect’ with ‘hot war,’ etc. so that the questions become ‘under what conditions does christianity expect hot war?’ or ‘under what conditions does christianity sustain cold peace?’ some pairs will be more interesting than others.
under those conditions where christianity promotes or sustains hot war (anything other than hot peace), is there some other ideology or pragmatic system that promotes hot peace?
i’d be inclined to look at these questions both historically and in contemporary times.
i’d have to figure out a way to separate ‘christianity’ as ideology from ‘christianity’ as ethical identity.
peace–
scott
scott gray on 07 Mar 2009 at 12:33 pm #
oops! last sentence should read:
i’d have to figure out a way to separate ‘christianity’ as ideology from ‘christianity’ as ethnic identity.
Dr. G. on 17 Apr 2009 at 2:26 pm #
The basic nature or message of specifically Jesus himself, the New Testament Christianity, does seem rather pacifist: “turn the other cheek.”
But of course, the Old Testament God is another matter entirely.
There God to be sure tells us not to “kill”; but this is usually translated, not to “murder.” In any rate, something is done to accomodate that, to God’s constant commands or allowances for us to find his/our enemies, and slay them, (as Moses ordered the Levites?). For example.
And unfortunately, the theologial characteristic of war-making Christian fundamentalism, is following the Old and not the New Testament. Involving probably … rejection of the once-popular (and questionable, but useful?) argument that the “new” Testament, and/or the “new convenant,” in any way replaced or modified – spiritualized; metaphoricalized – the Old.
Leaving the Old endorsement of violence, still in force.
Perhaps the answer is … re-emphasizing dispensationalism? The “new covenant”? Or just talking about Jesus mostly, and trying never to mention God, in his more violent moments?
What do you recommend?
C. Barton on 17 Apr 2009 at 2:39 pm #
I recommend talking to experienced Christians who have actually had to make the choice not to kill or to to murder. Or talk to those who are slapped out of spite and ask them if retaliation is worth it.
Sometimes thought experiments, to imagine “what it is like”, will fail because there is often no substitute for experience. And Jesus had a lot of experience!
Maybe we should revisit the simplicity in Christ, “taking up our cross”, and denying self every day.
Who can tell us how rewarding it is to carry a cross?
Also, there is a saying, “Don’t judge my by my tattoos” – tattoos remain but my soul is renewed and refined every day in Christ.
Let us remember the testimony in the end times, that many valued not their lives, to cling to life, but offered their testimony in faith, even to the point of death.
Paul Copan on 18 Apr 2009 at 12:14 pm #
Sorry about the delay in getting back to some of you. I’m hoping to post a new blog in the next few days. (I’m behind my once-a-month posting goal!)
I appreciate the comments. As for pacifism, I don’t agree that pacifism is in view in Mt. 5. (I think that the just war theory–with the goal to restore peace–can be biblically defended. See below.) Turning the other cheek is in response to an insult, not an act of violence: to hit someone with the back of the hand is a gross insult (we’re presuming the one striking is right-handed). Also, the idea of not resisting “the evil person” is better translated “do not resist by evil means”–which is what Paul picks up on in Romans 12–not to return evil for evil. (Glen Stassen and David Gushee talk about this in their *Kingdom Ethics* book [IVP]).
Also, Paul mentions in Romans 13 that the minister of the state does not bear the sword for nothing. The sword is a metaphor for death (capital execution)–which isn’t parallel to a police officer’s ticket book! It seems that the Christian can, say, justifiably enlist as a police officer or as a soldier to protect his country from unlawful invasion. You may want to look at my review of N.T. Wright’s book on evil posted at my website (www.paulcopan.com), where I discuss this further.
So I wouldn’t go the “dispensationalist” route here.
Well, these comments will have to do for now!
Dr. G. on 18 Apr 2009 at 12:25 pm #
But then Jesus … allowed himself to be arrested and executed? Rather than taking up arms to defend himself? Stopping Peter, when Peter cut off the ear of an attacker … and healing the ear of the soldier that had come to arrest him?
Honestly, I don’t have much confidence in any attempt to turn the New Testament into marching orders for Christian Fundamentalists.
If that’s where you do feel you have to go … I think you would just have to … quote the Old Testament; and suggest that somehow to some extent, it’s still in force.
Which to be sure, would be rather … anti-dispensationalist.
Dr. G. on 18 Apr 2009 at 12:40 pm #
I know your remarks were in haste. But …
1) In any case, don’t your remarks here, tend to rather confirm that Christianity IS violent? Since you just explicitly defended violence?
2) And not even just defensively either?
3) Though note by the way, that nearly all the Muslim argument for their own violence, is based on an appeal to “defence.” The Koran encouraged peace – and allowed Muslims to resort to violence only to “defend” themselves.
So that all the Muslim violence we see today, borrowed from the “defence” argument.
So that even “defence” might not be … a good excuse.
And if to be sure, the sheer number of deaths in the last century caused by (alleged) atheists were impressive, the percentage of world population deaths in other eras, caused by religionists of all ilks, was probably far more immense, in ancient times. When the Cruades killed a few hundred million … a few hundred million was a lot of people. (And not counting women and children? And those who starved to death when the family provider was killed?)
Nothing gets people more riled, than the idea that you are offending their God; nothing makes them want to kill you more than that.
To be sure, fortunately, if the comman man takes religion this way, the average priest, mendicant, or monk, does not.
Still, it would seem you are … not taking the priestly route in this comments; but are taking the more popular route, here.
So we might ask: should a religious leader really follow the masses in their violent inclinations? Should we get our religion from talk radio, and Pat Robertson?
Paul Copan on 18 Apr 2009 at 3:21 pm #
I think some clarifications and distinctions are needed here. Consider that the US’s involvement in WWII was a justified response to aggression and evil–what I think many would consider a just war response to tyranny. The Allied response (to Nazi aggression) is quite unlike the rapid growth of Islamic, which was aggressively spread into largely Christianized areas–hardly defensive fighting! (See my chapters on this in *When God Goes to Starbucks*.)
As for Jesus’ mission, he certainly rejected Israelite nationalism and the “zealot option” for his disciples. But Jesus’ (and the church’s) mission is different from that of, say, a police officer. We’re not talking about churches taking up arms, but rather we are taking seriously what Paul says in Rom. 13. The state is still ordained by God to bring order and to punish evildoers, and it seems that this God-ordained task can be carried out by Christians as representatives of the government. So we should distinguish between church and state so as to avoid a civil-religion or theocracy mentality.
By the way, on the Crusades, I think you mean “hundred thousand” than “hundred million” (actually, one estimate I’ve seen puts the numbers between 58,000-133,000 for the Crusades).
As for a biblical defense of just war (i.e., not Pat Robertson or radio talk shows), I would urge you to look at Daryl Charles’ *Between Pacifism and Jihad* (InterVarsity Press).
Dr. G. on 18 Apr 2009 at 5:02 pm #
Roman’s 12 indeed seems to tell us to follow the government.
But what if we were in Germany in WWII?
For that reason, this passage is usually modified, or contextualized, by ministers; to tell us to follow only godly governments.
Yet how can we tell which governments are Godly? the German and Nazi governments often told us they godly; “Gott Mit Uns” or God With Us (in my bad German), is on the belt buckle of the German Army. So the problem is, how do we know our government is godly? Especially when the Bible warned that many who pretend to be from Christ may be “false”? Or “decieved?”
While then too, one man’s “defence” is another’s offence. Arguably we did not even have to get into war with Germany; they did not attack us until our supply ships crossed their U boat lanes.
I’ve heard that interpretion of Jesus getting slapped; but even if that is not a miliary example … how about the other definitely military one? When Peter pulls a sword … and cuts off an ear? And then Jesus pulls Peter back … and heals the enemy?
I”m from a miliatary family; I spent most of my young life on Army bases. It was on a tour of Germany, that I picked up that belt buckle personally. And over the years, I heard dozens of military chaplins address the war problem. Few of them justified wars much though. And I never quite heard a convincting sermon that did.
Not from the New Testament; you really have to go back to the Old, to do that, I still think.
To be sure, the book you refence might do that: but still, this is so absolutely important to your argument, it might be good for you to summarize those arguments here, on this blog.
To be sure, Paul warned that the government has the “sword.” But I’m not sure he meant that the government was always good; rather that governments will often have the power to kill us, and so we should be careful around them.
Indeed, parts of the Bible suggest that one day, all “principalities” and “powers” will be found evil, and overthrown by God; who comes to change “all nations,” “all tongues,” etc..
And thanks for your correction; I did mean hundreds of thousands killed; not millions.
Dr. G. on 20 Apr 2009 at 2:21 pm #
There’s a law, currently being discussed on this blog in another context (curiously), that says that in all conversations, continued long enough, a reference to Hitler and so forth will occur.
To be sure though, there are cases when the German experience is directly relevant; in a discussion about religion, the state, and violence, for example, it would seem appropriate and unavoidable.
Indeed, to fail to mention it would be irresponsible. We should probably not laugh at mass murders by a quasi-religious state, as a cliche; what was the entire experience of WW II for … if not to teach us a lesson?
When a man murders one person after another on your street, should you stop mentioning it after he reaches a dozen … because it is now a cliche?
In fact, if we never mentioned the Nazi experience from now on … then we would have failed to mention, to acknowledge, the most compelling moment – and metaphor – of our era. And the war would have been in effect, for nothing.
I guess we shouldn’t watch “Schindler’s List”? Or read the Diary of Ann Frank?
Or try to avoid WW III?
Of course, its a little too easy to do this. But when it is absolutely, directly relevant?
Paul Copan on 20 Apr 2009 at 3:12 pm #
Dr. G.,
Thanks for the posts–some excellent points. Please note that Paul wasn’t saying that all governments are good and should therefore be blindly followed. (Paul and the other apostles in Acts resist the authorities at times, but are willing to pay the consequences.)
Since we’ve talked about the inevitable WWII and Nazi Germany, my mother (born in Latvia) was in Berlin during WWII. She was told to join the Hitler Youth, but she refused to. She was involved in singing Christmas carols at nursing homes during this time, and she and her friends were ordered to stop. They continued anyway. Thankfully, the authorities didn’t catch up with her, but she was willing to defy the authorities out of love for Christ.
Back to Paul and Romans 13, there is something to having an orderly society rather than anarchy. Though the “sword” can be abused, Paul sees government as having the role of keeping order/peace and punishing evildoers that threaten to undermine stability. He is not absolutely endorsing all governments–like the “divine right of kings” doctrine did. Consider that marriage is divinely instituted. While not all marriages are made in heaven, marriage itself is. Likewise, though not all governments are made in heaven, the *idea* of government is. It is a delegated responsibility that God gives to humans (part of our image-bearing role of ruling with God), however poorly or inadequately humans may pull it off.
As for a just war position, I think it can be morally and philosophically defended (just cause, just intent, last resort, lawful declaration, immunity of non-combatants, limited objectives, and limited means are the criteria typically set forth). I won’t go into the details here.
Perhaps I could mention C.S. Lewis’s “Why I Am Not a Pacifist,” which offers some insights into this theme of just war. He admits that war is “very disagreeable.” However, while wars may never do half the good which they are expected to do, it is not clear that all wars bring about more evil than good; “history is full of useful wars as well as of useless wars,” he writes. One useful war was opposing Germany in WWI: “If a Germanised Europe in 1914 would have been an evil, then the war which prevented that evil was, so far, justified.” War may be a great evil, but it is not the greatest evil in the world.
Lewis comments on the fact that innocent people are harmed in war: “Nor am I greatly moved by the fact that many of the individuals we strike down in war are innocent. That seems, in a way to make war no worse, but better. All men die, and most men miserably.” Death in war is not the worst thing which could ever happen.
He adds: “Only liberal societies tolerate Pacifists. In the liberal society, the number of Pacifists will either be large enough to cripple the state as a belligerent, or not. If not, you have done nothing. If it is large enough, then you have handed over the state which does tolerate Pacifists to its totalitarian neighbor who does not. Pacifism of this kind is taking the straight road to a world in which there will be no Pacifists.”
I could say more. I’m working on this topic in a forthcoming book; so thanks for the discussion in advance!
C. Barton on 20 Apr 2009 at 3:55 pm #
Remember that Hitler tried to build his unholy world order in part on the foundation of humanistic determinism as evinced by Darwinism. Jews were the “least desirable”, then Africans, et al, up the the Aryans who were, of course, at the top of the food chain. What a coincidence!
The German economic recovery would have gone swimmingly well without Hitler and his perverse schemes, yet he somehow knew when to seize the hearts and minds of the people, starting with the youth . . .
And back at the ranch: now we have talk of all this creepy Illuminati world order stuff; Christian Fundamentalists are the “least desirable”, then conservatives, et al, right on up to the new paradigmers who are at the top of the god chain: what a coincidence!
The USA would have got about its business quite well without the meddling of the international banking cartels, but somehow we’re all stuck in an economic ditch; now we must show political and social solidarity to pull through, starting with our youth . . .
Dr. G. on 20 Apr 2009 at 4:54 pm #
I lived as a child myself, in Post-war Germany; and I saw many signs of support all around me, by the Church, for Hitler. Like that piece of metal with the motto, “God with Us” on it. In the years since, I was told, by the Germans themselves, that the local priests often supported the war effort.
Today, we like to think that Hitler never appealed to Christianity; and that no Christians followed him. And no doubt, many German survivors like to tell us that they didn’t follow him; they resisted him. But remember, Hitler somehow triumphed; and was able to get millions of young men to fight for him. And not all were conscripts.
Hitler began his career in the south of Germany; in Bavaria; where I lived for a while. It is the strongly Catholic part of the country. For many years earlier, there, Hitler had often said that he followed Chrisitanity. Hitler in fact, was a choirboy in his local Catholic Church. Indeed, even his anti-Semitism was a form of dispensationalism; or extending the “the Jews killed Jesus” sermon; which was often dramatised in the various Passion Plays that I saw, in Deutchland.
It was many, manay years before most Christians came to notice that Hitler was not a good Catholic.
And for many years therefore, good Chrisitians followed him. Indeed, for many years, it was in effect, a “Christian” movement; so far as anyone knew. It included many Christians. Who felt no conflict with joining the Nazis, and being Christian. While Hitler normally made few if any statements to tell many people otherwise.
It was not until the end, that many Christians realized that his – and their – Christianity, was not quite right, or good, Chrisitanity.
So how about your own nationalist Christianity? Are you sure you are not also being fooled, manipulated? By people who say they are Christians … but who really just want to co-opt you into their wars as canon fodder?
Paul Copan on 20 Apr 2009 at 5:06 pm #
Thanks, Barton. Points well taken.
Dr. G., yes, many were taken in by Hitler (a reminder to be on guard against civil religion and the idolatry of nationalism), but even as early as 1934 the Barmen Declaration was drafted–a clear and damning statement on the emergent idolatry in Germany at that time.
The final questions seem to miss the broader point we’ve been discussing all along: Was Hitler wrong in what he did, and should he have been militarily opposed (as he was by the Allied powers)? Yes! I trust you see this clearly. The charge of “nationalist Christianity” strikes me as a red herring….
Dr. G. on 20 Apr 2009 at 5:09 pm #
Not at all. Nationalist Christianity is precisely the most pressing problem.
Paul Copan on 20 Apr 2009 at 5:12 pm #
It is a pressing problem! Too often churched Americans can lose sight of the fact that our ultimate citizenship is in heaven…. I’ve been defending the notion of just war, however, and I find that the Allied response to Hitler’s was morally justified. Thanks for pressing the point though.
Dr. G. on 20 Apr 2009 at 5:26 pm #
1) I agree: the Allied response to Hitler was morally justified. There might even be just wars.
2) However, should we pretend that any justification for war, in our present situation, will not, of course be immediately taken to support … Iraq and so forth?
3) So should we really try to separate or distinguish these two issues; since one will immediately strengthen the other?
4) And since … in my recent experience, those who come up with just war arguments in our era, almost always do it because deep down, they want to support America’s involvement in Iraq and so forth?
5) As Christians, let’s be honest here.
6) To be sure, as a sometimes academic myself, I sympathise with your interest in keeping this discussion impartial and disinterested.
7) But sometimes the appearance of disinterestedness is disingenuous.
Can you assure us of the purity and objectivity of your motives? Can you or we be sure that some personal/political motivation is not behind this?
9) Would you claim that your authorship of a book on this subject, at this juncture in history, has no relation to current social political events?
10) And if it does, then shouldn’t we examine those, just for a quick second? As we just have?
11) Of course, go on and make your own point in our own terms. But … I’d like to sign on here, and note some reservations.
Dr. G. on 20 Apr 2009 at 5:57 pm #
After finally reading it – I like your introduction somewhat. Though I do wonder if we can realistically separate a “good” “essence” in Christianity, and go with that. And really manage to leave the “incidentals” like the devisiveness of “one” truth, behind.
Can you really get one without the other? Without letting people know that … some old things are getting thrown out?
Of course the scribes were encouraged to mix the “new” with the “old,” and do stranger things that this, with the holy books in their care.
And for that matter, Jesus saw this .. and suggested that one day the new patches would tear loose of the old material. This may refer to the New Testament & covenant, separating from the Old Testament; Christianity from Judaism. Though the principle could be equally applied today, perhaps.
Susan on 20 Apr 2009 at 6:49 pm #
Hello Paul,
I have a question which is essentially off-topic, but I’ve been reading your incoming comments today and decided to ask anyway. On the way home from school my son (who’s 12) asked me if the 50’s were a good time in this country. Then he said that his Bible teacher told them that it was because the US was being good to the Jews.
How would you respond to that?
Kara Kittle on 20 Apr 2009 at 7:42 pm #
Well Bill Maher says it does. I saw him in a movie delivering pizza, when did he become the religious expert?
Kara Kittle on 20 Apr 2009 at 7:54 pm #
Susan,
And we should continue to be good to Jews, and the Jews will say we need to be good to all people. I saw an interesting quote today and it is worth sharing I suppose for this post…
David Horowitz, former member of Black Panther Party, said this….
“The existence of a Murder Incorporated in the heart of the American left is something the left really doesn’t want to know or think about. Such knowledge would refute its most cherished self-understandings and beliefs. It would undermine the sense of righteous indignation that is the crucial starting point of a progressive attitude. It would explode the myths on which the attitude depends.
David Horowitz, former member, on the Black Panthers; ‘Black Murder Inc.’; in Hating Whitey, Spence Publishing Company, 2000; Panther leader Bobby Seale was born on October 22, 1936 ”
Does religion cause violence? I thought the left was more anti-religious. Hmmm, good things to think about.
Dr. G. on 21 Apr 2009 at 8:09 am #
I was born in the 50’s … at the start of the Korean War. That is how I would respond to that.
Dr. G. on 21 Apr 2009 at 8:29 am #
There were many violent leftists; almost as many as .. right wingers and religionists.
The central wars and violence of the very present are caused by religion. Tim McVeigh? Run Run Rudolph, bombing abortion centers? Religious Muslims destroying the World Trade Center?
But last but not least, Iraq and Afghanistan? Where are agnotistics doing as much as that right now?
Though many deaths have been caused by atheists agnostics in the 20th century, in the previous many centuries, probably a) most were caused by or aggravated by religion; and b) the number of deaths caused by religion, in the past, was probably higher, by pecentrage of world population at the time. When the Crudades killed a few hundred thousand (not counting women and children; starving a displaced persons?) … a few hundred thousand was a lot of people.
And many regimes said to be atheistic, were Christian. From c) my time in Germany, I know that the allegedly “atheist” Nazis who killed so many, were often “good” Catholics (above).
Indeed, d) most wars credited to atheists, had religion on the other side. People like to say that the evil Russian Revolutionaries killed millions. But who fought them? It was the Christians who opposed the Russian Revolution. And it takes two side to tango. Why pick on one side? It took two to make that fight.
Maybe e) we should avoid being smug about being Christians; no doubt it is always good to speak for God. But isn’t there a temptation to Vanity there?
I’m glad Christians are now so kind and understanding today? So eager to look for the beam in their own eye? To see the sins in themselves, and not just everybody else?
Kara Kittle on 21 Apr 2009 at 8:48 am #
Dr. G,
I was born in 1967, the start of the Vietnam War. Who protested?
The liberal universities, the hippies, the flower children. And what were these universities teaching hippies and flower children?
Timothy Leary was teaching “Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.” Another thing for your scientific mind to think about was this drug guru also said “Science is all metaphor”.
Liberalism is at the heart of rebellion to the word of God. These so called ‘prophets of the new age” spreading the sublime joy and peace of the Age of Aquarius just merely succeeded in getting a nation of promising youth hooked on drugs, free love and rebellion to any authority. Can you tell me these proponents were correct in telling American youth that the rebellion against authority was right?
I want to know this, why is it liberals call American aggressive when it comes to war, but never holding other countries for their aggression to their own people and to those around them? Why did no one of the liberal media call Saddam Hussein evil for killing Khurds? But George Bush was called an Imperialist. Do we have American colonies established there? Do we have American colonies established anywhere in the world? You know that we don’t so it is wrong to say we are Imperialistic, but if you look into and see who was actually making the accusation, it was the individual Muslim men who bought western media outlets. Then blaming it on Zionism. Who is making the Zionist claims? The Islamic fundamentalists.
Sharia law is now valid in England. Who are the Imperialists? How long will it be until these Imperialists who seek to destroy our culture introduce Sharia in America? It happened already, because people called good evil, and evil good. War is evil, but peace through subjugation is just as evil. Was this a result of religion or a result of man turning away from religion?
An interesting fact, Joseph Stalin killed 10,000,000 people in the name of the anti-religion Communism, China has killed many more millions in the name of anti-religion Communism (which I believe was the proponents of the Korean conflict), and the list goes on.
At the end of WW2, over 25,000,000 people were killed, that is as many people who live in Los Angeles. Who started that war? It was not the Americans.
If you will care to admit it, WW2 had national days of prayers. There was one on the day of the invasion of Normandy, there was a national day of prayer for the Apollo 13 mission. There were national days of prayer for many events but when it came to the 1970s nobody cared any more. American youth were spoonfed the lie of rebellion and now we are reaping the harvest. There is no respect for authority in any capacity except for those who are in the liberal university systems. Before you assume, I went to Wright State University. This rebellion is not from religion, but the opposite. Does religion cause violence? No, rebellion against the word of God causes violence.
Dr. G. on 21 Apr 2009 at 8:56 am #
If Muslims and Jews and Christians are fighting, I don’t need to say one is right; I can just observe that … lots of religious people are now fighting. None of the major parties here are atheists, note.
Liberal hippies might have their problems; but they did not start any wars. Conservative Muslims and Christians like George Bush, did that.
Dr. G. on 23 Apr 2009 at 1:37 pm #
One of our blog vocabulary words for the day? “Anabaptists.” Who rejected any tie between religion and government?
maggie on 14 Mar 2010 at 3:13 pm #
to whoever it was that said its people that should be blamed rather than god, how is it that god is responsible for all the good but he doesnt take credit for all the bad in this world? its like parents have to be responsible for the actions of their children. when it comes down to it, if god created the wrold then hes responsible for it and he created (pardon my pun) a hell of a lot of evil