Do mountains move literally? oh yea they do

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,196226,00.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=940DE1D9113EE733A2575AC2A9629C946797D6CF

You never know if somebody prayed for those mountains to move. But huge mountain moving 62 miles in 30 minutes? Wow that’s 124 miles per hour speed.

Hi John,

Greek language and culture? what they have to do with God?

Jesus lived what He spoke. He commanded the wind and the sea and they were silent. He raised the dead. He cast out demons. He healed the sick. He commanded the fig tree and whithered.

He lived it, are we living it?

Thanks
Vinod

Hi Lisa and John,

Jesus is God. Every single word He spoke it has to be true otherwise He is not God. If what He said needs to be altered before trusting it then either He is telling a lie or He is out of his mind.

Mat 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

If Jesus is God then what He said in Mat 21:20-22 is true to every single word. If it is true then fault lies with us not with Jesus.

Thanks
Vinod

Hmmm, from the time of Jesus to now, there has never been a mountain cast into the sea, despite the fact that there have been many women and men of huge faith, and matyred for their faith.

While God is omnipotent and can do what ever is possible (such as move mountains), might not Jesus have been speaking using the oral techniques of his day to make his point? Such as hyperbole? Such as he is recorded using elsewhere in the Gospels?

Furthermore, isn’t Jesus point about asking in faith? and not that a certain kind of faith guarantees a response corresponding to what was asked for?

And isn’t the point about Sara that God did it, not her? Not her natural fecundity, of which she had none left, having passed the age of childbearing. And though she did have faith, it was not a full faith without any doubt: she laughed at the angel’s words and did not believe that she would conceive. In fact, she doubted so much that she gave her maid to Abraham for him to conceive a son with.

And isn’t it the experience of many Christians that they “ask in faith” and “do not doubt” and “ask in prayer believing”, but sometimes they receive what they ask for and sometimes they do not? And yet their faith in each case was the same. So God did not give them what was asked for even though they asked in faith, without doubt, and with believing—-which is a point that even you acknowledge when you refer to Job.

All Christians, no matter how new, and even if they don’t understand Greek or the mid-east culture of 2,000 years ago, can understand from those verses that Jesus desires us to ask in faith. But what you have done is taken those verses and constructed a programme and set of rules out of them–meanings that those verses were never meant to bear and which go against the proper interpretation and understanding of those verses derived from an understanding of the Greek and of the language and cultural way of expressing things in Jesus time. Note that I am pointing out that any Christian can beneficially get meaning out of those verses without being a scholar, but that scholarship is necessary whenever we want to have a full and deep understanding and whenever we think that the verses might allow us to construct as set of rules as you have constructed.

Regards,
#John

Vinod, so if I pray and the prayer is not answered, then it’s a failure of faith on my part? Your prescription comes awfully close to putting faith in faith as opposed to faith in God. Also, you can’t isolate the teachings of Jesus on prayer and faith and not correlate his teaching with the complete witness of Scripture. If God is sovereign and he is to bring about His will (Eph 1:11), then are you suggesting if our faith is strong enough we can somehow override that? It’s interesting that you suggest John had not read Hebrews 11:11, but I would ask you what then do you make of Hebrews 11:35-40, especially vs. 39 -’and these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised’. The next verse is quite telling why God sometimes does not give us what we want – it was for something better.

Hi John,

Did you read Mat 21:20-22? What you say Jesus was wrong? Jesus said it “if you have faith and do not doubt” and “whatever things you ask in prayer, believing”

Mat 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither away so soon?”
Mat 21:21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.
Mat 21:22 “And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”

Probably you never read
Heb 11:11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.

From where you are getting what you just spoke? From Bible or from your own logic?

re posts 23 & 24: “By creating doubt you have already insured it that you will not get answer from God.”

There is no logical connection there, indeed, it is irrational. God is neither a machine nor Pavlov’s dog that He should respond when we ring the bell of “faith without doubt”. God is a personal god, and our father. He does what He wants to when He wants to, sometimes even despite our lack of faith (pimping Abraham and laughing Sarah come to mind). When my own children ask me for something, I don’t give it to them just because they have faith that I can deliver the goods, or because they ask in the right way. Furthermore, sometimes I give them what they need, or what I know they desire, even when they don’t ask me for anything. It’s called a relationship, not a Coke vending machine. All that, however, does not mean that my children do not continue to ask for things, nor does it mean that they should not ask for things. I tell them to ask for things, but I don’t always give them what they ask for, and many times they do not understand why. There is no prerequisite or rule set out in the Bible that God will refuse our requests because we don’t “exercise our faith to the full extent”. The Israelites did not even ask nicely for meat in the desert, let alone ask in full faith. Rather, they complained about a lack of meat–yet God still answered them and gave them meat.

Regards,
#John

continued from previous…
He heard back from the Lord.
Exo 6:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh. For with a strong hand he will let them go, and with a strong hand he will drive them out of his land.”

Believe me if Moses didn’t hear from God, we would not have rest of the chapters of Exodus, and next three books of the Bible. How many times do you go back to God and ask Him what His will is? Probably you never do it because you don’t know how to hear from God. Throughout Bible people listend to God and God spoke to them.

Bigger point is when people say if answer is not coming then that means it is not the will of God, they are dead wrong. Lisa did exactly same mistake in her article.

James talks about fervent prayer which Jesus talked about in Luke 11. James 5:15-18 tells the right way of prayer and how to get Elijah like results.

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
James 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
James 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.

After having done it correctly, if God doesn’t do what you asked for then also He is still God. You should have an attitude of Job and other great men of God in the Bible. But first you have to excercise your faith to the full extent.

Job 13:15 Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.
Job 13:16 He also shall be my salvation, For a hypocrite could not come before Him.

Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter.
Dan 3:17 “If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king.
Dan 3:18 “But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.”

Hi Lisa,

That’s a way to refute Jesus using logic and experience. It is a way to politely say that Jesus you are wrong, I know better.

Thanks for you admitted your faithlessness though in last line of first para and few starting lines of second para.

That in itself is a non starter. When you already have doubt about Mat 7:11 and start without faith, you are definately not going to get it.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

By creating doubt you have already insured it that you will not get answer from God. Do you see that word “imposible”? When you have made up your mind that He doesn’t reward, you are not going to raise to the level of faith you need.

You also mentioned
Luke 11:13 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

That is another subject. Many people ask for salvation and stop there without asking for Holy Spirit. It looks today people know what Jesus didn’t know. If Jesus had known that indwelling of Holy Spirit happens at the time of salvation then Jesus would have never done the biggest mistake ever of saying you need to ask for Holy Spirit. That also persistently(Luke 11:8).

Anyway back to our subject .

Context of Luke 11 is different from Mat 7. Mat 7 is continuation of
Mat 6:33 “But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

So Mat 7 is definately talking about earthly things not about Holy Spirit. Looks like Mat 7 and Luke 11 were spoken in different occations. To give benefit of doubt let’s assume Mat 7 is talking about Holy Spirit yet Mat 21:20-22 is talking about fig tree not about Holy Spirit.

Mat 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither away so soon?”
Mat 21:21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.
Mat 21:22 “And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”

What you missed here is none of the passages mention that God answers prayers immediately. Most of the time it takes time and persistent prayers to get answer.

God sent Moses to bring Isralites out of Egypt. When he went to Pharaoh what he got? more hardship for Isralites, more trouble.

Even Moses is confused but instead of assuming he went to the Lord.
Exo 5:22 So Moses returned to the LORD and said, “Lord, why have You brought trouble on this people? Why is it You have sent me?
Exo 5:23 “For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in Your name, he has done evil to this people; neither have You delivered Your people at all.”

cont….

Friends,

I think some here mistook my words to mean that I think we should have it easy. It is not lost on me that suffering is endemic to a fruitful and faithful walk with Christ, which is introduced in our lives for a multiplicity of reasons including discipline, maturity, deepened worship and intimacy with Christ, and to bear His mark to shine His light amongst those with no hope. Indeed, we must loosen our grip on things held dear in order to gain the true value of the great salvation that was handed down to us. Your will, oh Lord, not mine be done, should be our cry.

But I think we also have to be honest and sensative to the fact that discouragement, disappointment and frustration are real and present, even amongst the heartiest of believers. It is difficult when one struggles and prays only to watch others bestowed the gifts (not spiritual ones) they so desparately desire, to endure through the valley or desert watching others on mountain tops. Yes, God will supply our needs and contentment with such that we have should be the order of every single day. In all these things, God is doing His sculpting, pruning and growing. But let’s face, sometimes its just tough.

I also think we should be careful about whipping out the suffering mantra without sensativity to one’s situation. I do not speak in personal terms so much as I am considering how disheartening it can be for that saint who is really struggling to hold on to their faith when faced with challenging circumstances. We don’t really know what the Lord is doing in that person’s life. Let’s not be like Job’s friends who had it all figured out and proceeded to straighten Job out.