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So What's the Point?
by Lisa RobinsonJanuary 24th, 2009
31 Comments
The other day while on Facebook, I saw a status update of one my facebook friends proclaiming the goodness of God and how He will grant us the desires of our heart. I confess my reaction was tinged with some cynicism as I reflected on my own desires that have seemingly been ignored despite earnest, sincere and rightly (or at least I believe) motivated prayers for God to move in a particular situation in my life. And these are prayers that I have prayed for a good while now, believing that God does hear, does care and is concerned. Although admittedly my emotional response to delay would seek to refute this at times.
What is even more troubling is that as I pray for God’s will to be done in my life, there are no guarantees that these prayers will be answered. Even though Matthew and Luke record Jesus as saying that a snake would not be offered for the fish that is requested, implying that if we present a particular request then we should expect a response corresponding to the nature of that request. Naturally, this is not a blanket prescription for expecting prayers that are not aligned with God’s mandates in context of the whole counsel of Scripture. The contexts of these passages also suggests that the gift of the Spirit is what Jesus had in mind and not necessarily a license for a prayer free-for-all. But even with these restrictions, there is an encouragement to approach God with our requests but those requests are tempered by the sovereign will and reign of God, which may not produce the outcome we desire.
I recall listening to Joni Erikson Tada tell of how desperate she was to be able to walk again and offering up heartfelt and faith-filled prayers for this to happen. But as time passed and those specific prayers went unanswered, her intimacy with the Lord increased as did her ministry and the increasing number of people impacted with the gospel of Christ. She recounted that it was certainly a ministry that would not have occurred had her specific requests been granted, how God has used her disability to reach many in ways she had never dreamed of. I recall in my own life when my husband was alive but sick and home life was very difficult. I prayed for years for an outcome of salvation, healing and a mended relationship. Those prayers were not answered. Instead, he passed away. But that unmet prayer did charter a much different course than I would have expected.
It does seem that if we are God’s children and He does love and care for us, then the deep desires of our heart should be granted as long as they are in line with His word. If we are told to come to Him with our requests but those requests are not granted, then one might ask how this demonstrates the love of a Father. It may prompt the question marked by the title of this post, so what’s the point? What is the point of serving a God that would deny us the deepest desires of our heart.
I suppose that the reasonable answer would be to consider our existence in context of God’s eternal purpose and plan, which entail a reconciliation with His creation that upholds and testifies of His glory. It is about Him and His glory, that we exist for. Consider question #1 of the Westminster Catechism: What is the chief end of man? To glorify God and enjoy Him forever. This of course being a synthesis of the Biblical account of our existence. It is an account of God choosing the outcomes of situations that may place fullness in the hands of some, while others can only look to their empty ones and ask “what about me”. Scenarios that highlight what Romans 9:15 indicates that God will have mercy on whom He has mercy.
But to that person who is hurting, grieving and expecting a different scenario, this may not provide a great deal of comfort. It may in fact, produce the opposite affect of thinking of a God who really doesn’t care about us, our plans or our desires leaving only the residual of asking “what’s the point”. It may propel a response to opt out of the relationship established with God and to conclude that following Christ as just not worth it.
But following Christ does leave one option that not following Him does not, and that is hope. If we don’t have Him, then we have nothing. Consider the status apart from Christ, what Paul says to the Gentiles in Ephesus:
Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called ‘Uncircumcision’ by the so-called ‘Circumcision’, which is performed in the flesh by human hands – remember that you were at the time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Ephesians 2:11-12).
We may throw up our hands in despair and walk away, but walk away to what? Because the only other option is a life without God. If you believe anything about the fall, you have to believe that surely separation from God is the only course of action the fall produced for all mankind. And this is an utterly hopeless situation. Sure the temporal joys of life may suggest that life without God is doable and even enjoyable. But it is masked in the deception of long term avoidance, that in the end the temporary will pay off. That’s a bad way to hedge your bets, in my humble opinion.
It boggles my mind that there are so many accounts of people who have placed their trust in the promise of redemption that could only come through God’s prescriptive course, yet the outcomes of their lives suggested that they may have hoped in nothing. Even in the Biblical account of such people, we hear much of the great heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 but somehow want to bypass the latter part of the chapter beginning at vs. 35. People who hoped for that promise were tortured, mocked, imprisoned, sawn in two, destitute, ill-treated, wandering in deserts, caves and holes in the ground. They did not receive what was promised yet they still hoped. For the text says in vs. 39 that they gained approval through their faith. Their hope was not in vain. I also consider the afflictions of Paul and others in the early church as well as the many missionaries who regularly put their lives at risk, abandoning earthly comfort to proclaim a message that many consider nuts.
When Paul challenges the church at Corinth (1 Cor 15:12-19) concerning their disbelief in the resurrection of the dead, he is speaking to this hope. If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised and if he has not been raised, what’s the point? It’s useless and we should be considered fools for placing trust in something that is utterly hopeless. Because if we are still separated from God and dead in our sins, then we certainly of all people are to be most pitied.
And trust in Christ is the point. That trust does not promise a bed of roses during our earthly sojourn but it does guarantee an eternal hope. Moreover, an accurate consideration of that trust is essential, that our faith is placed in the accomplishments on the cross to provide us with reconciliation to a holy God of whom we were an enemy to. The promise is an eternal existence with Him. It’s why as masses gravitate towards churches and messages that promise better lives and changed circumstances in hope of satisfaction for this life now, but without a complete or accurate consideration of the gospel message, we see much disillusionment and creative theistic imagery, as CMP indicated in his recent post. If we don’t place an accurate trust in Christ and what He came to accomplish, then we’ve missed the point.
Let’s face it, life is just plain hard sometimes and we don’t always get what we want, as that famous Rolling Stones song says. It would be nice if things played out exactly how we’d like, to fill in the picture of our dreams. For some it does seem that it goes that way. That has not been my experience. Sure, I have seen God do some pretty spectacular things in my life and set me on paths I would have never imagined. But this has been juxtaposed with some real heartache. I sometimes struggle to believe that God cares about the deepest longings of my heart.
In John 6:66-69, after many left Jesus he turned to Simon Peter and asked him if he wanted to leave too. When I turned my heart towards Christ 10 years ago after a 13 year period of sin and rebellion, Peter’s response to Jesus resonated and still resonates in my heart today…”Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have believed and have come to know the You are the Holy One of God.” So I know that in spite of unfufilled desires, if I turn away from this, then there is absolutely nothing.
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31 Comments
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How much more will your father in Heaven give the Holy Spirit to those that ask.
I don’t know why some people are healed and some aren’t. I don’t know why the wicked prosper.
We can trust God for salvation based on the resurrection but I admit, it’s sometimes hard to trust that He will heal based on the evidence of my sister (inflammatory bowel disease).
But then a soldier doesn’t spend his time complaining that the General isn’t providing him with whatever he wants. He follows his mission directives and does his duty.
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AMEN sister! Thank you!
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I have started returning to the Lord’s Prayer on this issue. When asked by his disciples how they should pray, Jesus provided an outline of the sorts of things one should address to one’s heavenly father. None of them involve asking for anything more than the strength to forgive and the desire to live in accordance with God’s plan. Using this as I guide, you would not ever ask for intervention. In his practical lesson in praying, Jesus asks, almost wistfully, that the cup pass him by but in truth accepts God’s will.
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Good post. I think a lot of believers often quote Jesus’ words about prayer and faith moving mountains (Mark 11:20-25) and yet don’t notice three chapters later that Jesus’ own prayer request in Gethsemane seems to go unanswered (Mk 11:36). The cup of suffering wasn’t removed from him. It certainly wasn’t for a lack of faith on his part or that he didn’t pray the right way. But of course, I think we see that God’s will was done, just as Jesus had prayed.
And I think Jesus’ prayer in Gethsemane would have served as a great example, even a model prayer, for early Christians, especially those suffering a frightful fate for their faith. Superficially, it looked like Jesus’ prayer went unanswered and it looked like Jesus was abandoned by everyone and everything, including God himself. But of course, that wasn’t true. The end of the story was that God had not overlooked Jesus but that he was raised from the dead, and God’s will was done… just as Jesus had prayed.
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I have been reading this blog for only a couple of weeks now. I have realized that I agree with some things here, disagree with others, and some I am not sure about at this time!
However, I think you have really hit the nail on the head here, Lisa. Your quote from Peter, …”Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have believed and have come to know the You are the Holy One of God”, really is the bottom line. That has to be the only answer there is even in those times when we just don’t understand and things have not gone the way we thought they should at all. And those times inevitably come to all of us sooner or later and to one degree or another.
Thanks for a very honest and encouraging post.
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Dear Lisa ; Some thoughts;
Suffering is another means God uses to mature His saints and to display His
love. As the song goes, ”we don’t need to understand, all we need is to hold
His hand.”
When I was made an awakened Sinner[ realized I was lost] I tried to get
saved. I asked the Lord to save me, but He didn’t. Then one day, I said, ”Lord
You might as well send me to hell”, and to my amazement and
disconcertment, God reached down and saved this wretch of a Sinner.
You see Salvation comes not by a decision, nor by a profession, but by the
revelation of Jesus to the heart, by the Holy Spirit, through the Word of
God.
I can never get over the fact, that The Lord would save me, a poor,
rotten, stinking wretch of a sinner.
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So What’s the Point?
Answer: Salvific relationship with the Holy Triune God who is your Lord, Master, and Lover of your eternal soul.
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george, yes its so hard, i have been a christian, about 24 years, seen 1 mother die, 2 brothers die, 1 sister die, prayed my heart out, asking, are you there lord, please help me, still have others in my family, 4 brothers, 1 sister left, begging and crying to my lord, do something, lord drop your spirit on them, please, in my family i have about 40, open there hearts lord, yet, even seeing them die one by one, i never in 24 years ever alone, i feel we far out in our thinking, on what or not what the lord should do, and if you have more than one family member saved, be gratful, sometimes i wish , hell was never in gods plan, but it is, knowing what my love ones, are facing in hell, for ever, is so hard at times it breaks my heart, then, i come to understand, christ taking all of our sins, to save us, we can all be sure god will never never slip up, and, in our silly way, we just keep on talking, and praying to our lord , please hear me, anyway ,we are still your children, and love you, lets, just trust in him, our lord and savour ,christ,. amen. god bless to usa, fron scotland, just tell all the end, is near, for his return,soon.george.
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It sure is tough. I pray for things that I believe are quite reasonable and I don’t receive what I ask for.
Pastor Tom Baker (Lutheran) says that God will always answer our prayer with a ‘yes’…if we add “thy will be done”.
He will always do His will.
What about me?! What about my will!!?
He’s trying to kill it off…that’s what.
Thanks.
– Steve Martin San Clemente, CA
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And trust in Christ is the point. That trust does not promise a bed of roses during our earthly sojourn but it does guarantee an eternal hope.
This is important, Christianity is a call to follow and many a time that involves hardship.
Further, suffering can often draw us closer to Christ.
I affirm both these things but still have a desire, and also sincerely think we should/ wonder why we don’t experience more of the power of Christ in a miraculous not just providential way. I think it is what Jesus intended and I do think some of the reason lies in us.
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I must first say AMEN to Scott Ferguson’s post. the “Our father prayer teaches us clearly to put God in the drivers seat.
The bible teaches that ALL things happen for the good of those who love the lord and are called by his name.
Sometimes in our finite minds we often forget this and begin earnistly to seek our own will rather than to look for the will of God and understand the value of our current situation in the big picture
It’s like saying on one hand “Lord i trust in you do as you will with me for you are all knowing and all wise” but as he begins to do what’s best through his everlasting knowledge and wisdom we but in.
So it leaves the questions. Do we really trust God? Do we really believe in his infinite wisdom and knowledge? Do we really believe that he knows and wants what is best for us and is worrking it out ?
Or do we believe that we are the masters of our destiny and he is our faihful Geni ready to fulfil our every wish.
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Bethyada, how true that suffering is a part of our Christian journey. I’m currently reading Let the Nations be Glad, by John Piper and it is so reminding me of this reality, which is also productive in terms of advancing God’s agenda both in us and through us. I wish all the health and wealth folks would read this book.
Solo, I agree with you and I think one of the hardest prayers to pray is nevertheless, not my will but yours be done oh Lord. Shortly before my husband passed away, despite what I wanted to see happen, I had to change my prayers from my desired outcome to just surrendering to His way. His passing did open the way for God to do some pretty incredible things to advance His agenda.
Yes, we do have to have the grander picture and purpose in mind, that it is indeed about God working all things out for His glory. But with some, the realities of disappointments can cloud this and can seem crushing. I was really hoping to encourage those for whom this is true.
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Thanks for sharing your heart, Lisa. As I was reading, I was recalling Peter’s words in John 6. How true! Where else could we go?! He has the words of eternal life.
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While you are quoting Jagger… The next line of the song is “…if you try sometimes, you might just find, you get what you need.”
I don’t have to “try” anything, just read that…
“God supplies all my needs according to His riches in Glory”, and that is good enough for me.
We must be careful to not credit God with the “bad stuff” that happens to us. It is not His fault. While He is in no way responsible for our ailments, car wrecks, paralysis, etc., He is responsible for any good that comes of the event.
Be careful when referencing song lyrics.
Go Obama!!!!
“Meet the new boss,”
“same as the old boss.”
ohhh…
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Markd
We must be careful to not credit God with the “bad stuff” that happens to us. It is not His fault. While He is in no way responsible for our ailments, car wrecks, paralysis, etc., He is responsible for any good that comes of the event.
Job 38?
2 Corinthians 12:7?
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God does indeed, allow evil.
He let’s everything happen.
Have you been to a children’s cancer ward, lately?
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Roger,
Clarification. Bad things happen because of my sin, your sin, or nobody’s sin.
God is not waiting around for you to screw up so He can whack you on the head with a mallet or strike you dead with a lightning bolt. He is not a wife beater.
That is why I am uncomfortable with the notion that God has cancer (or any other malady) as His perfect will in His kids’ lives. What can I possibly gain from being sick, maimed, etc. ? Does is make God look good when His kids suffer from disease? Do I realize how bad chemo sucks and how great it is to have hair? God doesn’t need to make me sick to show me how good He is or teach me any other kind of lesson. Having Cancer is not God’s fault. It might be mine, could be a result of somebody else’s device or activity, or it could be a random mutation of cell….
Now, there are all sorts of people who, having had some debilitating event, do incredible good because of and in spite of their condition.
Trust me, I would much rather my wife not had brain cancer. She would, too. Yes, she learned that having hair makes pictures nice and pretty, chemotherapy drugs really, really suck, but not much else. Has any good come of her experience? You bet. But not because she was running around saying, “God wanted to teach me thus and such so He gave me…”
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Markd,
God is indeed SOVERIEGN. It doesn’t need to be qualified with the words “in all things” because that is part of the definition. God is not as one dimensional as I read your comments. Yes, God is certainly good. And merciful, and the Originator of grace, and God is love. But Mark, God is also just. Sin does not originate with God, nor does he tempt (Jms. 1:13), but He does TEST (Gen. 22:1; Ps. 11:5; Ps. 66:10; Rms 5:1-5; 1 Thes 2:4). God is God. And we are created in his image, not vice versa.
We have all experienced some terrible malady or infirmary due to our fallen state and I feel sorrowful everytime I hear of it from family members such as your wife. But God will use the difficulties of this life to test our faith. For untested faith is of little value.
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I think the circumstances of our lives (whether or not we get cancer, whether or not God heals us, whether we marry this or that person or remain single, whether we die young or old, whether we have plenty to eat or starve, etc.) are not as important to God as our personal character, attitudes, reactions, trust in God and loyalty to God. I think God wants us to act responsibly in shaping the circumstances of our lives and it is generally right to ask God to rearrange our circumstances according to our desires. But whether God does what we ask is not as important as the edifying spiritual side-effects of going through the painful process of desiring & seeking God’s will, waiting patiently, enduring adversity, persisting despite discouragements, trusting during times of darkness & perplexity, coping with disappointments & doubts, overcoming our fears, remaining faithful to God when facing temptation, walking by faith rather than by sight, falling down & getting back up, and discovering that our theology is not big enough to circumscribe God.
As an example, God did not answer Jesus’ prayer in Gethsemane by removing the cup from him because God’s plan was to save the world through Jesus’ crucifixion. But the very process of Jesus praying that prayer contributed to the efficacy of his atoning death. Jesus’ prayer (“I desire scenario A but I choose scenario B if that is your will”) was the ultimate expression of his life-long obedience to the Father and the denying of his own will in preference to the Father’s. Thus his death on the cross was a voluntary sacrifice of a totally righteous life. His death would not have been efficacious for us if he had gone to the cross involuntarily or reluctantly. He learned obedience through what he suffered (Hebrews 5:8), which I understand to mean that even though he had always been willing to obey, his obedience only became objectively realised when put to the test, and it was essential for our substitute to render an actual, positive obedience in place of our lack of obedience. Praying that prayer in Gethsemane made Jesus’ self-denial and obedience to the Father objectively real in a way that would not have happened if he had jumped straight from the Last Supper to his arrest.
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Oh the hardships of a pilgrim’s life. Doesn’t the Word tell us we are pilgrims and this world is not our home? In fact, the prosperity clan probably should check up and see how comfortable they are here in this world!! 1 Peter 1
We need to be reminded that suffering has a purpose through the Providential Hand of God. He is testing our faith. 1Peter 1:7 The same faith He gave us, it is not ours to begin with, but rather THE SUPREME GIFT OF LIFE through Jesus Christ! Ephesians 2:8 If this gift of faith is given by Him…and He makes NO ERROR and His gift is perfect (James 1:7) then He is able to see us through. We will NOT give up, because these trials produce TENACITY…PERSEVERANCE…a bulldog grip, if you will, and the grip is definitely His. All this is His to give and He does so LIBERALLY, without notice of our station in life, but because of our positional standing through the sacrificial atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ for our sin He so graciously gives it to us, if we are properly positioned, and will ask Him. We have not because we ask not. We receive not because we don’t ask with pure motive for God to be glorified in us and through us. We want to consume it upon ourselves. We want to worship at the shrine of our own minds… OUR WILL, not His. If we believe that God is for us and not against us, we will receive His gift of faith to trust Him and allow His course to move us closer to Him and look forward to HEAVEN!!! This world is not our home, we are just passing through! OR is this all there is? If that is so, then God is not real and NONE of the Scriptures are valid and theology is a waste of time! It is intellectually stimulating to discuss the Scriptures, but can I ask…”How’s that working for ya?”
Forgive my zeal…my life is a wreck, my marriage is in serious trouble, but I know Jesus as Savior, Master and Friend and there was a point, years ago, when I did not know Him, nor did I care to. But He called me out of deep darkness to walk in His marvelous light and that makes my world ROCK!
Blessings to the seekers and those otherwise “convicted”!
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Lisa said:
It boggles my mind that there are so many accounts of people who have placed their trust in the promise of redemption … yet the outcomes of their lives suggested that they may have hoped in nothing. Even in the Biblical account of such people, we hear much of the great heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 but somehow want to bypass the latter part of the chapter beginning at vs. 35. People who hoped for that promise were tortured, mocked, imprisoned, sawn in two, destitute, ill-treated, wandering in deserts, caves and holes in the ground.
Interestingly, the latter part of chapter 35 suggests that at least some of these heroes did not pray for earthly deliverance or relief from their suffering. Some “…were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.” Instead of asking God for a comfortable, easy ride they opted for the greater glory of suffering for their faith. Their prayers did not appear to go unanswered – they received exactly what they asked for.
Some persecuted Chinese believers today ask us in the West not to pray for an end to their persecution – because they are seeking the sanctifying power of suffering for Jesus. Instead they ask that we would pray for their strengthening and endurance.
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Friends,
I think some here mistook my words to mean that I think we should have it easy. It is not lost on me that suffering is endemic to a fruitful and faithful walk with Christ, which is introduced in our lives for a multiplicity of reasons including discipline, maturity, deepened worship and intimacy with Christ, and to bear His mark to shine His light amongst those with no hope. Indeed, we must loosen our grip on things held dear in order to gain the true value of the great salvation that was handed down to us. Your will, oh Lord, not mine be done, should be our cry.
But I think we also have to be honest and sensative to the fact that discouragement, disappointment and frustration are real and present, even amongst the heartiest of believers. It is difficult when one struggles and prays only to watch others bestowed the gifts (not spiritual ones) they so desparately desire, to endure through the valley or desert watching others on mountain tops. Yes, God will supply our needs and contentment with such that we have should be the order of every single day. In all these things, God is doing His sculpting, pruning and growing. But let’s face, sometimes its just tough.
I also think we should be careful about whipping out the suffering mantra without sensativity to one’s situation. I do not speak in personal terms so much as I am considering how disheartening it can be for that saint who is really struggling to hold on to their faith when faced with challenging circumstances. We don’t really know what the Lord is doing in that person’s life. Let’s not be like Job’s friends who had it all figured out and proceeded to straighten Job out.
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Hi Lisa,
That’s a way to refute Jesus using logic and experience. It is a way to politely say that Jesus you are wrong, I know better.
Thanks for you admitted your faithlessness though in last line of first para and few starting lines of second para.
That in itself is a non starter. When you already have doubt about Mat 7:11 and start without faith, you are definately not going to get it.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
By creating doubt you have already insured it that you will not get answer from God. Do you see that word “imposible”? When you have made up your mind that He doesn’t reward, you are not going to raise to the level of faith you need.
You also mentioned
Luke 11:13 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
That is another subject. Many people ask for salvation and stop there without asking for Holy Spirit. It looks today people know what Jesus didn’t know. If Jesus had known that indwelling of Holy Spirit happens at the time of salvation then Jesus would have never done the biggest mistake ever of saying you need to ask for Holy Spirit. That also persistently(Luke 11:8).
Anyway back to our subject .
Context of Luke 11 is different from Mat 7. Mat 7 is continuation of
Mat 6:33 “But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
So Mat 7 is definately talking about earthly things not about Holy Spirit. Looks like Mat 7 and Luke 11 were spoken in different occations. To give benefit of doubt let’s assume Mat 7 is talking about Holy Spirit yet Mat 21:20-22 is talking about fig tree not about Holy Spirit.
Mat 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither away so soon?”
Mat 21:21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.
Mat 21:22 “And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
What you missed here is none of the passages mention that God answers prayers immediately. Most of the time it takes time and persistent prayers to get answer.
God sent Moses to bring Isralites out of Egypt. When he went to Pharaoh what he got? more hardship for Isralites, more trouble.
Even Moses is confused but instead of assuming he went to the Lord.
Exo 5:22 So Moses returned to the LORD and said, “Lord, why have You brought trouble on this people? Why is it You have sent me?
Exo 5:23 “For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in Your name, he has done evil to this people; neither have You delivered Your people at all.”
cont….
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continued from previous…
He heard back from the Lord.
Exo 6:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Now you shall see what I will do to Pharaoh. For with a strong hand he will let them go, and with a strong hand he will drive them out of his land.”
Believe me if Moses didn’t hear from God, we would not have rest of the chapters of Exodus, and next three books of the Bible. How many times do you go back to God and ask Him what His will is? Probably you never do it because you don’t know how to hear from God. Throughout Bible people listend to God and God spoke to them.
Bigger point is when people say if answer is not coming then that means it is not the will of God, they are dead wrong. Lisa did exactly same mistake in her article.
James talks about fervent prayer which Jesus talked about in Luke 11. James 5:15-18 tells the right way of prayer and how to get Elijah like results.
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
James 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
James 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.
After having done it correctly, if God doesn’t do what you asked for then also He is still God. You should have an attitude of Job and other great men of God in the Bible. But first you have to excercise your faith to the full extent.
Job 13:15 Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.
Job 13:16 He also shall be my salvation, For a hypocrite could not come before Him.
Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter.
Dan 3:17 “If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king.
Dan 3:18 “But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.”
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re posts 23 & 24: “By creating doubt you have already insured it that you will not get answer from God.”
There is no logical connection there, indeed, it is irrational. God is neither a machine nor Pavlov’s dog that He should respond when we ring the bell of “faith without doubt”. God is a personal god, and our father. He does what He wants to when He wants to, sometimes even despite our lack of faith (pimping Abraham and laughing Sarah come to mind). When my own children ask me for something, I don’t give it to them just because they have faith that I can deliver the goods, or because they ask in the right way. Furthermore, sometimes I give them what they need, or what I know they desire, even when they don’t ask me for anything. It’s called a relationship, not a Coke vending machine. All that, however, does not mean that my children do not continue to ask for things, nor does it mean that they should not ask for things. I tell them to ask for things, but I don’t always give them what they ask for, and many times they do not understand why. There is no prerequisite or rule set out in the Bible that God will refuse our requests because we don’t “exercise our faith to the full extent”. The Israelites did not even ask nicely for meat in the desert, let alone ask in full faith. Rather, they complained about a lack of meat–yet God still answered them and gave them meat.
Regards,
#John
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Hi John,
Did you read Mat 21:20-22? What you say Jesus was wrong? Jesus said it “if you have faith and do not doubt” and “whatever things you ask in prayer, believing”
Mat 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither away so soon?”
Mat 21:21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.
Mat 21:22 “And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
Probably you never read
Heb 11:11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.
From where you are getting what you just spoke? From Bible or from your own logic?
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Vinod, so if I pray and the prayer is not answered, then it’s a failure of faith on my part? Your prescription comes awfully close to putting faith in faith as opposed to faith in God. Also, you can’t isolate the teachings of Jesus on prayer and faith and not correlate his teaching with the complete witness of Scripture. If God is sovereign and he is to bring about His will (Eph 1:11), then are you suggesting if our faith is strong enough we can somehow override that? It’s interesting that you suggest John had not read Hebrews 11:11, but I would ask you what then do you make of Hebrews 11:35-40, especially vs. 39 -’and these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised’. The next verse is quite telling why God sometimes does not give us what we want – it was for something better.
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Hmmm, from the time of Jesus to now, there has never been a mountain cast into the sea, despite the fact that there have been many women and men of huge faith, and matyred for their faith.
While God is omnipotent and can do what ever is possible (such as move mountains), might not Jesus have been speaking using the oral techniques of his day to make his point? Such as hyperbole? Such as he is recorded using elsewhere in the Gospels?
Furthermore, isn’t Jesus point about asking in faith? and not that a certain kind of faith guarantees a response corresponding to what was asked for?
And isn’t the point about Sara that God did it, not her? Not her natural fecundity, of which she had none left, having passed the age of childbearing. And though she did have faith, it was not a full faith without any doubt: she laughed at the angel’s words and did not believe that she would conceive. In fact, she doubted so much that she gave her maid to Abraham for him to conceive a son with.
And isn’t it the experience of many Christians that they “ask in faith” and “do not doubt” and “ask in prayer believing”, but sometimes they receive what they ask for and sometimes they do not? And yet their faith in each case was the same. So God did not give them what was asked for even though they asked in faith, without doubt, and with believing—-which is a point that even you acknowledge when you refer to Job.
All Christians, no matter how new, and even if they don’t understand Greek or the mid-east culture of 2,000 years ago, can understand from those verses that Jesus desires us to ask in faith. But what you have done is taken those verses and constructed a programme and set of rules out of them–meanings that those verses were never meant to bear and which go against the proper interpretation and understanding of those verses derived from an understanding of the Greek and of the language and cultural way of expressing things in Jesus time. Note that I am pointing out that any Christian can beneficially get meaning out of those verses without being a scholar, but that scholarship is necessary whenever we want to have a full and deep understanding and whenever we think that the verses might allow us to construct as set of rules as you have constructed.
Regards,
#John
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Hi Lisa and John,
Jesus is God. Every single word He spoke it has to be true otherwise He is not God. If what He said needs to be altered before trusting it then either He is telling a lie or He is out of his mind.
Mat 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
If Jesus is God then what He said in Mat 21:20-22 is true to every single word. If it is true then fault lies with us not with Jesus.
Thanks
Vinod
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Hi John,
Greek language and culture? what they have to do with God?
Jesus lived what He spoke. He commanded the wind and the sea and they were silent. He raised the dead. He cast out demons. He healed the sick. He commanded the fig tree and whithered.
He lived it, are we living it?
Thanks
Vinod
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Do mountains move literally? oh yea they do
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,196226,00.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=940DE1D9113EE733A2575AC2A9629C946797D6CF
You never know if somebody prayed for those mountains to move. But huge mountain moving 62 miles in 30 minutes? Wow that’s 124 miles per hour speed.
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