Married to the Ministry? Why Jim Left the Ministry and Faith
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I received this email today. It is from a former pastor of 20 years who left the ministry in 2000. He is now an agnostic (does not know if there is a God). I recently heard a statistic which says that 80% of those who are in seminary will no longer be in ministry within five years! Astonishing. At least, to me it is.
Jim is an interesting case. I will leave the interpretation up to you. But as you read through his story, I think you will find that this gentleman was married to the ministry, committed to the church, and in love with his pastoral accomplishments more than he was to God.
What would cause a pastor of over 20 yrs to leave the ministry? My reasons and story are uniquely mine. Maybe you have been in my shoes in one way or another. I started out in the Pentalcostaland Charismatic traditions of showing up early and leaving late from every church meeting I ever attended. As a result, as soon as I was asked to do anything, I always said “yes.” In our churches, the way into ministry was through apprenticeship, for higher learning was suspect as not being spiritual enough for true ministers.
I was as sincere as anyone I have ever met. My motives were honest, simple, and trusting that I was truly following God. I was led to believe that my calling and gifts would make room for me in the kingdom. It sounded good to me, and I bit into it hook, line, and sinker.
Soon I was the anointed worship leader, Christian school administrator, elder, assistant pastor, building coordinator, TV host, hospital visitation minister, home group leader, secretary, board member, and anything else that was needed on the staff of the largest charismatic church in our four county area. I was “in.” I was busy, and I was burning for God.
Sometimes weeks went by without one night at home with my wife and children. I was too anointed to need time at home, right? Does it sound familiar yet? As life unfolded and people kept encouraging me to keep on fire for God, or at least burn out trying, my wife developed asthma. To make a long and painful story shorter, let’s just say that it was assumed that because this happened we were losing our anointing or walking in some secret sin.
Weary and burdened with asthma and the disdain of those who once saw us as their leaders, we began to question everything called “ministry.” I am leaving out a ton of details for time’s sake, but as the 20 years went by, we found ourselves losing any desire for involvement in formal ministry. Instead we loved spending time with those who had nothing to do with church, such as Lou, the bassist and head of the satanic church in Laramie, Wyoming. We loved our time with each other and our kids. One thing led to another, and since October 2000, I have not been in the formal ministry. This has been a disappointment to my father, as well as to those who knew us as church leaders.
These days, I find myself with more respect for myself as a person, with more love for my wife Tammy, with our three grown kids and their sweethearts, and with our grandson. I also love all the good people I have met through the Elks Club, the Chamber of Commerce, my current work in real estate and bus driving, the local bowling and golf leagues, and our downtown community parties.
In short, I have become almost everything I used to preach against. What has become of my theology? I have experienced everything my charismatic background had to offer, and found myself lacking love for myself, my family and others. Since I have left organized religion and de-toxed for seven years, I find love increasing in every way. I think I am reduced to love. If there is a God and that God is love, then I’m into that.
Previously, people were a burden. Now, I love spending time with anyone, regardless of his or her belief system. People are no longer a project to bring to conversion, or a possible warm body to prop up a church program, or a parishioner who might tithe regularly so we can grow the church. I am done with pimpin’ the program.
It’s healing just to write a bit of my story. Do I miss the ministry or attending church? No. I wouldn’t trade my life for what I now have. How could I afford to leave? I drove trucks, waited tables, delivered pizza, installed cabinets, worked in a factory, sold houses, drove school bus, and worked at a golf course. Some of this I still do. If you are dying to get out, it isn’t easy. It’s a process. It’s embarrassment at its highest in the church world. But what the hell, it’s so worth it. I’m just starting to live and love.
What are your thoughts?
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Chris S on 08 Jan 2009 at 4:12 pm #
I’m not sure what I think. I’m probably writing to quickly having just read this. But what the heck. Here goes. I think CMP may be right in saying Jim probably was more in love with church than with the Savior. But lets not be too quick to right Jim off. The Church (and not just the charismatics)have trained us(not all churches)for years that the measure of your spirituality is your church involvment. Church visitation , church attendance, listening to church music, reading “church books”,etc. Anything outside of this is “wordliness”. Do I think all of the above are important? Yes. The problem is when we give the idea that being “churchy” automatically makes us spiritual. Why can’t christians experience God’s world on a broad spectrum of things from music to books to entertainment without being labeled worldly? Why isn’t family time considered just as spiritual as many other church events? Don’t get me wrong I believe christians need to filter what they put into their minds. I don’t believe ” anything goes” I really don’t. But why can’t we just live life, love Christ, and filter our lives through our love for Him. It seems that so many are duped into believing that fitting to the christian mold pleases God and will fulfill them and many end up experiencing burn out , doubt and sometimes major confusion resulting in agtosticism. It seems to be the same old problem of religion vs. relationship.
Why is Jim experiencing more genuine love outside of the body than in it? I’m not sure I know the answer to that. I know the easy answer would be that he was never truly born again. Again, I’m not sure it is that simple. And I do know that we have no right to make that judgement. Maybe it is because there is so little love and acceptance in the established church. I do know this: Jim has a major problem on his hands. Probably some of it was his own fault and much of it was the fault of the church. We (the church) must stop treating people like they are a commodity. The church must love the whole person. Oh well, I’ve rambled enough. Like I said I am probably writing too soon having just read this.
PastorAarn on 08 Jan 2009 at 4:24 pm #
I shudder when I hear stories like this because this could have been my story but for the grace of God. I grew up in a charismatic church and thought prophecy and speaking in tongues was the church norm. I made it clear from early on that I wanted to be a Youth Pastor but I was never told how important a solid theological education was. In fact, looking back on it now, I had no personal theology at all beyond “Jesus loves you and wants to save and help you”. I can’t think of hardly any sermons that taught theology instead of “How to have good relationships” and “How to tithe”. So I move my family to a small town that has asked me to volunteer as the church Youth Pastor. I spent three years out there and it all fell apart. I wasn’t totally to blame but I had a good hand in it.
At this point it would have been very easy to walk away because I was incredibly hurt. Hurt by the church, hurt by Christians, and hurt by God. I am so thankful that God brought me through that. Piece by piece he led me to teachers that opened my eyes to a new way of understanding the Bible and my faith. I never watch TBN but it happened to be on one day when Kirk Cameron was on teaching about the Law and the Gospel. It was the most eye-opening thing I had ever seen. It was like Kirk knew every question I had about my faith and didn’t know who to ask to get the answers. That was the beginning of a radical change in my life. It was like I was given the keys to understanding the Bible. That was about 6 or 7 years ago and I am still riding this wave. If someone had just told me how fascinating Theology could be it probably would have changed the whole trajectory of my life. I listened to everything I could find from Ray Comfort, I listened to Way of the Master radio for years, (and probably would still be listening if they hadn’t started charging), started listening to John Piper, Ravi Zacharias, John MacArthur and others. I can’t get enough. I don’t think a day has ever gone by that I don’t read my Bible (something that very rarely happened before all this). In short, at my most despondent, God opened my eyes to see Him, my heart to begin to understand him. I have tasted and He is GOOD. All this because of Theology.
PastorAarn on 08 Jan 2009 at 4:29 pm #
“Why can’t christians experience God’s world on a broad spectrum of things from music to books to entertainment without being labeled worldly? ”
IMHO The reason Christians shouldn’t do this (much) is because those are baser things that rob us of time and energy that could be better spent on things that build up our spirit rather than entertain our flesh. If you’ve got an hour to kill why waste it on a TV show when you could be meditating on a memory verse? Why listen to secular music when you could listen to the Bible on tape? In my mind, it’s not because those things are evil but they keep us from the good.
Del on 08 Jan 2009 at 5:43 pm #
Am I missing something? He may be a little confused about God but it sounds to me like he finally entered ministry rather than leave it.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 08 Jan 2009 at 5:55 pm #
Wow, this is really rather complex. On one hand, perhaps in a “shallow”(?) sense, I’m glad that he’s happier. But on the other hand, it’s not good that he’s apostasized. Not good for his soul, and not good for his witness to his family, friends, and neighbor.
What can I say? He’s the “Happy Apostate”.
JohnFOM on 08 Jan 2009 at 6:36 pm #
I think our responses to this may say more about us than the situation. It’s one of those situations that is so easy to project our concerns onto. Guess what my soapbox is…
For my response: Happy he’s found the love again, sad that it wasn’t in a church (ecclesia of Jesus folk), angry that yet another church has abused yet another church leader.
It’s that last one that is the strongest. We, churches, seem to be great at imposing working conditions, pay rates, and expectations on leaders that would be rightly outlawed in other fields, but because it’s ’spiritual’ it’s somehow ok to do it.
Church leaders are supposed to be above that sort of materialism anyway, aren’t they? Look at the bible! All the greats suffered, the best prophets even had depression. Our leaders should expect nothing less. If it doesn’t come naturally to them, its incumbent on us to give them that suffereing, we just gotta find that point jussssst before the leader’s breaking point, so we can’t be blamed for putting him/her over the edge (we dont always see that point in time, but hey, we’ll get it right with the next one). And thier families must have some sort of superspiritual DNA inherited from said leader so…
(Hopefully that last paragraph’s sarcasm is obvious enough).
The 80% leaving ministry is not a big surprise to me. I find it more surprising that anyone can get to know thier pastor and still think of going into formal ministry. I tend to put it down to ‘lottery thinking’: It’s gotta work for someone, why wouldn’t it be me?
Samsen on 08 Jan 2009 at 6:40 pm #
It seems to me, Jim got a dead “ritualistic” religion instead of a dynamic relationship with the living God. *sigh* what can I say? Without getting into the complex business of determining whether he was really saved, I believe, that partly his expectations [of how a Christian life should be/will be] could be responsible for his apostasy.
Dale on 08 Jan 2009 at 7:43 pm #
Personally, I would cast blame on the Pentecostal/Charismatic church/denomination Jim was involved in. It sounds very much like the cultic church that was once involved in. The message of faith, love, grace was drown out by duty, responsibility and propriety.
About 10 years ago I was close to being in the position Jim was in. I was tired of not being good enough and always having to feel like I needed to earn my salvation. I was all but gone, close to being an agnostic. A tiny sliver of my being just couldn’t let go of the belief that there was a God. I left the Pent/Char church and went to a good old fashion baptist church where I promptly became a back bench on occasion attender. There I learned that there was absolutely nothing that I could do to earn the grace of God. I was surrounded by Christians (most of them anyway) who emphasized and exercised grace in my life. I could volunteer at whatever level I felt comfortable. I met some people who appreciated my intellectual approach to the word instead of the experiential approach that I was accustomed to. I was allowed to grow at a comfortable pace. There were no sermons about how inadequate I was because of what I did or didnt’ do. Over time my faith began to deepen. I’m now a happy volunteer for in the church and in seminary.
And I don’t know what I will do after seminary. I may quit next year and never graduate. I will do that until I either finish or get tired and leave. I know now that no early standing affects my standing with Christ. I’ve learned what Christ means when he says “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.” I’m very thankful of the walk that I have now with Christ.
All of this happened because the leadership at my church understands how to live a balanced life and what real discipleship is.
Hopefully Jim still maintains a sliver of belief that will guide him to some believers who understand this as well. They are out there.
Lisa Robinson on 08 Jan 2009 at 8:34 pm #
“Previously, people were a burden. Now, I love spending time with anyone, regardless of his or her belief system. People are no longer a project to bring to conversion, or a possible warm body to prop up a church program, or a parishioner who might tithe regularly so we can grow the church. I am done with pimpin’ the program.”
Jesus liked people. In fact, he liked them so much that he hung out with the ones the “religious” people didn’t think much of. He wanted to free people not imprison them.
Unfortunately, Jim did not experience ministry, IMHO. Ministry is about loving Christ and encouraging others to love Him too. It’s about God’s program for people. But this sounded like a program about a program. It smacks of modern day tower of babel experience, which unfortunately is a danger in the synergistic theology of these types of ministries. Sorry, that seems a bit harsh but I really don’t know how to sugar coat this one.
Why? Because I have seen this first hand. I have sat under this type of psychological manipulation. I experienced it to some degree when I went running from this type of so-called ministry. It’s why I just left and didn’t get into the prescribed “meet with the pastors”.
When I was a part of these circles, the worship leader that I served under gave his life for the ministry, sacrificing so much. Very similar to Jim’s experience. When he began to realize that he was not really growing but just toiling, not to mention that his wife was not being spiritually nurtured, he believed it was time for them to move on. He gave a month’s notice and was quite gracious to the pastor so he told me. The pastor got very angry with him and asked for the keys immediately telling him not to come back…after 7 years of sacrificial service. This was about a year after I left.
This of course does not excuse Jim’s dedication to Christ. We will all have to account for our own walk and cannot blame those with ungodly motives. But man, just makes me mad.
Layton on 08 Jan 2009 at 10:06 pm #
Jim’s story does not make me mad, it makes me sad. We need to be very careful how we deal with the wounded, his story is not finished yet.
Ian Kirk on 08 Jan 2009 at 11:34 pm #
First, I think Del is close to the mark. I do think that Jim did confuse working in the church, and following Jesus (which summarizes a lot of what else has already been said).
However, I will also say that the Charismatics and Pentecostals have a major focus on experience. As a member of the Church of the Nazarene (a denomination with major Pentecostal roots), I fully understand the pressure people feel (whether actual or self-imposed) to have the “experience”. Sometimes the experience is “living for the ministry.” You do have to have the wisdom to say, “no.”
Lastly, I’m not convinced that Jim is as much of an agnostic as he purports. This note he wrote to CMP means that he has at least some interest in the faith. One doesn’t usually write a note blindly to someone with whom one has no experience (even if it is just a blog or podcast).
Jason C on 09 Jan 2009 at 12:01 am #
Jim is almost in the right position. All he has to do is renew his allegiance to Christ and it’s quite possible that he is exactly where God wanted him to be all along.
James on 09 Jan 2009 at 3:58 am #
I would encourage Jim to read The Prodigal God by Tim Keller. It deals with the story of the two lost sons in Luke 15:11-32. It is definitely worth your time regardless of your current “religious” standing.
minnow on 09 Jan 2009 at 7:40 am #
Our response does indeed tell us more about ourselves then it does about Jim. Personally, I do not think God is shaking any fingers or wringing any hands.
Eric S. Mueller on 09 Jan 2009 at 7:57 am #
I notice that when people encounter problems with “church” or with God’s other people, somehow it becomes a problem with God Himself. It’s almost like people are asking the wrong questions. There are a few things going on in my church right now that are reaching a level where I’m getting really annoyed, but it has nothing to do with my belief in God. They have to do with how other people interpret how church should be conducted. For instance, it often seems like we only sing the same 12-20 songs over and over and over again. I’ve even asked our song leaders how out of more than 800 songs in the hymnal, we only sing about 12-20 on a regular basis. I’m reaching the point where that particular group of worshippers can continue to do whatever makes them happy, but I’m not sure if I’ll continue along with them. Jesus is still my savior though.
I try to shy away from easy answers, because cases like this are highly complex. I agree with Michael that Jim seems to have spent more time “doing church” than worshiping Jesus. I hope I can clearly articulate this, as it seems to me like we Christians often live in some kind of Gnostic duality, where we’re forced to deny every signal built into our bodies and minds that something is wrong if we want to be “spiritual” or “anointed”. God created families for a reason, and it wasn’t so that men can prove their commitment to Christ by ignoring those families for a hyper-devotional life of ministry. Jesus became a man and died as a man to redeem us AS MEN (and women are included obviously). He doesn’t expect us to come to Him and suddenly live like poorly defined spirits from medieval literature, denying every last aspect of material existence if we claim to follow Him.
We also tend to think that ministry can only be conducted within the context of an ordained and poorly paid staff position. If that’s the case, why did Jesus say to go out into all the world, making disciples… Why didn’t He just say to put up buildings and wait for the world to come in and join our worship rituals, where they can then be baptized after taking a series of “new member classes” and reciting a creed? I’m being partly facetious in order to make a point. I’m not trying to be harsh.
Layton on 09 Jan 2009 at 8:29 am #
It is amazing to me that when a Christian leader fails or is going through tremendous faith struggles, the ones who ought to run to his side ( the church and other Christian leadership) are the ones who judge, condemn, abandon. It is quite like Job’s three friends. And this happens in all denominations and Christian circles.
I have personally experienced this and seen it happen to numerous ministers. Any one of us may be the next “Jim”. His family probably continues to hurt from the response of the Church. Who will minister to the ministers? I make no excuses for Jim’s doubts.
C.H. Spurgen went through horrible periods of depression and physical ailment. If we could search the hearts of ministers who appear to be doing well, we may be amazed at the level of personal doubt, depression, misguided priorities, frustration, exhaustion, and extreme temptation.
There but by the grace of God go I.
Crazyupstart on 09 Jan 2009 at 9:28 am #
Layton,
Great point. Christians are so willing to help *anyone* except for one of their own fallen. Then we run from them and abandon them like the plague. What? Do we think that because we are christians we are above temptation and sin? Wouldn’t you expect the firy darts of the evil one to come harder and faster at the leaders who are running harder and faster for God? My question is where was Jims support?
As I was reading through Jims story I was wondering to myself “Where are the people who are advising and guiding Jim?” It seems implied that other church leaders were encouraging him to do more and not less. Only common sense is needed to know that he would get burned out after a time. He never mentioned anyone ever advising him to spend more time with his family (his first ministry) or to be sure to enjoy life.
Two weeks at a time with hardly seeing his wife or family? People should be considered for removal from ministarial office for such an action! Where were HIS advisors?
Tiffany on 09 Jan 2009 at 11:03 am #
I believe this is an example of someone who decided to worship his feelings. I’m a Christian and there are things that God commands me to do that I really don’t FEEL like doing. But it’s not about my feelings. I love God and I know that what he desires is absolute best. I know now that the pain and suffering and sorrow I go through is only “light and momentary” (2 Cor 4:17). I have been a part of a Pentecostal/Charismatic church. I believe a lot of people in those denominations go by feelings. If they left a service and didn’t feel something tickle them then God wasn’t there or there was some sin or whatever that blocked that. Worshiping God isn’t about how we feel anyway, it’s about how God wants to be worshiped. You know what, we aren’t always going to feel things correctly. It takes discipline to line up our feelings with scripture. Yeah, everyone has a unique story because we are unique people. But what it comes down to is if you are really saved or if you just practiced traditions. I say this in love, not self righteousness.
John C.T. on 09 Jan 2009 at 11:17 am #
Jim, assuming you read CMP’s posts regularly and will read this one and the replies to this one, Jesus continues to love you and pursue you. Among all the bad and the draining that you expereineced,there was also good. that good came from Jesus.
regards,
John
Layton on 09 Jan 2009 at 1:25 pm #
I would like to post this song sung many times by Steve Green. It has been especially helpful to my wife ( a preacher’s kid and a pastor’s wife).
Wounded Soldier
See all the wounded
Hear all their desperate cries for help
Pleading for shelter and for peace
Our comrades are suffering
Come let us meet them at their need
Don’t let a wounded soldier die
Chorus:
Come let us pour the oil
Come let us bind their hurt
Let’s cover them with a blanket of His love
Come let us break the bread
Come let us give them rest
Let’s minister to healing to them
Don’t let another wounded soldier die
Obeying their orders
They fought on the front lines for our King
Capturing the enemy’s stronghold
Weakened from battle
Satan crept in to steal their lives
Don’t let a wounded soldier die
Chorus
Words and music by Dony McGuire & Reba Rambo
Jim, if you are out there reading I pray for you and your family.
Larry
J.R. on 09 Jan 2009 at 3:15 pm #
Instead of trying to diagnose Jim I believe all of us should try and encouraging him. He has gone through a tremendous heart wrenching ordeal and has found comfort with people who love him for who he is not what he is or what he has done.
I pray God has moved Jim from one ministry to another and soon may he understand what God has for him to do away from the hustle and bustle of “church” life. I pray this will be a wonderful opportunity for him to advance the Kingdom of God.
Rom. 10:14-15
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they bellieve in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
Brian on 09 Jan 2009 at 3:28 pm #
This is a typical of theology done wrong. In this case the lack of teaching from a Christian world-view that is built on a solid biblical foundation; I need not go into all the details this is the home of the TTP. Suffice to say, and this appears to be a common theme in the west, so to speak. Easy believeism and prosperity preaching have all but done in the evangelized or better said the un-taught of a biblical theology. It is not a question of judgment (by humanistic standards) in a sense (of course we will all be judged accordingly at the bema of Christ) that has let down Jim; it is the single trackless of hearing Christianity from one source. Doing going theology requires a willingness to leave preconceived notions behind temporally in order to grasp the bigger picture. Jim only got one piece of the puzzle (in actuality the whole business of a redemptive God for a wicked people is a profound mystery, but that is another tangent) and when the fire turned down a notch and reality sets in; our eyes truly see the path laid out in front. People lose faith in God. I question things personally myself and even ponder like Jim, but the proper course of action is never give up. Looking at it from the cosmological perspective, I am in awe about many things, including the destiny of humanity and wondering who I am, what is my purpose, and who is God. Jim lost this fire and settled for a torch burning from both ends. When it is man centered Vs. Christ centered it is a matter of time before people wake up left doubting in themselves. It should be not what I can do for Jesus, but what can Jesus do through me. Jim forgot the most important aspect of the creator, God created man in his image. Jim hopefully will realize that all the worlds’ fruits are working on the temporal and will not endure foe the eternality. Only time will tell, hopefully Jim will come back with a better understanding of what it is all about. At a time as this Prayer would be the call of order for a lost brother or sister
Carol on 09 Jan 2009 at 4:36 pm #
During the time Jim was busy in the church, did he maintain a daily prayer/devotional life apart from the church? He talks about his “works” but what about his relationship with God? Did he work and work and work and lose his first love?
Just asking……………………..
J.R. on 09 Jan 2009 at 9:01 pm #
I really don’t know what Michael hoped to glean or stimulate from this post. It’s not some nonessential theological blog with which many of you like to debate endlessly.
This is a sad testimony, but the saddest part is how quick many of us are to write Jim off instead of trying to restore him. We may not be able to do that through this blog but it wouldn’t hurt to try.
Layton,
That’s a beautiful song you posted. It reminded me of one of my Marine Corps creeds of never leaving a dead or wounded Marine behind. Sadly, many respondents here would rather criticize Jim and treat him like a Gentile and a tax collector.
Knowing very little of Jim I would rather assume he is a Christian and begin from that point. That being said, Jim, you have value. You have value because the Spirit of God dwells in you. Because you are gifted by the Holy Spirit to have ministry in the church to all the rest of us. Because you are an instrument by which God can do His work in the church and through the church in the world. You are one of God’s wounded soldiers who we can not allow to continue to bleed out.
John MacArthor wrote:
“G. Campbell Morgan many years ago wrote this, “It is the great tragedy of a man lost which colors all this instruction (Matt. 18:15-20). And the purpose which is to be in our hearts when we deal with a sinning brother is that of gaining him. The word gain, Morgan says, suggests not merely the effect on the one lost, but the value it creates for those who seek him. When presently we have done with the shadows and the mists of the little while, we will understand in the light of the undying ages that if we have gained one man, we shall be richer than if we piled up all the wealth of the world.” What a blessed thing he writes, to gain a man, to possess him for the church, for the fellowship of friends, for the enterprise of the gospel, for the program of high heaven.”
I am here with you Jim by your side in prayer. May God restore your first love and rekindle your passion with those who are currently in your life now. God Bless you.
J.R.
Lisa Robinson on 10 Jan 2009 at 11:55 am #
Crazy,
The problem is that Jim did not have advisors or slave drivers with a distorted view of ministry.
I am SHOCKED at the comments here that throw stones at Jim and how he wasn’t following Jesus correctly. He was influenced by and following a works based plan that involves psychological manipulation. If you’ve never experienced this type of ministry, perhaps you don’t realize how effective it is at equating sacrifices with sanctification. It produces a mentality that says if you are not “doing” enough, it is because there is something wrong with your walk with the Lord. Therefore, there is no room for pursuing a walk with Christ only room for looking like you have a walk with Christ.
Please, please do not castigate Jim for not maintaining a proper walk with Christ. He was doing what he thought was a proper walk with Christ.
J.R. and Layton, I think you guys get it. Thanks for that song. I hope it touches Jim.
Jay Ott on 10 Jan 2009 at 12:35 pm #
I think Dr. Rod Rosenbladt’s, _The Gospel For Those Broken By The Church_ is really, really helpful. (available at New Reformation Press)
He says:
“If the Ten Commandments were not impossible enough, the preaching of Christian behavior, of Christian ethics, of Christian living, can drive a Christian into despairing unbelief. Not happy unbelief. Tragic, despairing, sad unbelief. (It is not unlike the [unhappy] Christian equivalent of “Jack Mormons” – those who finally admit to themselves and others that they can’t live up to the demands of this non-Christian cult’s laws, and excuse themselves from the whole sheebang.) A diet of this stuff from pulpit, from curriculum, from a Christian reading list, can do a work on a Christian that is (at least over the long haul) “faith destroying.”
Rahab Klingensmith on 10 Jan 2009 at 9:40 pm #
Gracious Me…..I can not even fathom an area of where exactly to start to write of the gutt-wrenching realities of the disgracefulnesses , and of ruthless existence our churches are headed down a pathway of extinction from the efforts of themselves. My Heart breaks for those who have spent hours of dignified time , and efforts into heartful attendings of educational learnings, heremenueticals, and writings too advance Gods Kingdom–when all that seemingly transpires as of recently, is the ruthless existence of hypocrocy-leaders-some; and a grave example of what exactly IS written in the book of Revelations…..(again, an example: The church of Ephesus, and its floundering existence of posture being that of lukewarm—- a non repentive Heart; hate towards one another; a torn apart structure—only living out a creed of a hell like displacier—-tearing apart “the sinners” a the seams , needing so desperately to be Loved. Oh – My – Gosh …..a Prayer needed and quick; one can only hang their head in relentless prayers for God too intervene for the innocent, once again, before the Church has become an unfortunately astounded entity of extinguishnesses…meaning —nothing therefore, nothing left but a empty tomb; and God’s quite angry to say the least. “Grace destroyed and love” because of humans-pastoral, and their relentless hypocrocy…..oh my…. God forgive me for writing….another Psalm like prayer of relentless begging…. Hummmmmmm……somewhere, out there…We can ONLY Pray for “the angel of the churches” too interseed and soon. Before it IS too late. Not many Reverend Billy Grahams left today….hummmmm….rather Richard Dawkins to fight his case instead. Rahab
Jim on 11 Jan 2009 at 9:48 am #
I “stumbled” on the article “Why Jim Left the Ministry…. and faith” and read it with interest. I would comment, NOT CRITICIZE the various parties that have an input to the situaton.
In the first instance Jim’s enthusiam to get involved is admirable, but the first problem lies in the Leadership of the church – too often as it would appear in this case “If he’s willing let him get on with it!” – that is the line that is adopted from the “top!”
DELEGATE – by all means but do not lose control.
What appears to have been lacking in Jim’s experience and sadly too common in church life is “ACCOUNTABILITY” Those “in authority” should have read the signs, sat down with Jim and worked thtough his work schedule – even further delegation of that work load.
Who Pastors the Pastor?
On a further look at Jim’s own account of his situation it would appear that he “started where he should have finished and finished where he should have started.” Spending time with and getting to know those who were outside of the “church” in the early days of his training would have prepared him to meet and deal with their personal and spiritual problems that it would appear he could not cope with at a late time – he did not know them.
Sadly Jim is not alone. His experience is that of many believers and church leaders in the church and perhaps now “out of church life today.”
Young people think they have a gift – it is seized upon by well meaning “leaders” and they are thrust into the “spiritual battle” without backup, training, testing, or knowing the escape route when the Enemy strikes.
To Jim – from another Jim, our God is gracious, He, like the Prodigal’s father is looking out for your return – He already has the party arranged and He will give you the Grace to allow you make that turn around. Just remember you are
” remembered in Prayer by those who care.”
Russ on 11 Jan 2009 at 1:53 pm #
I would point out an interesting word in his story–experience. He has experienced all the church had to offer, and was still left empty, in the end. So much of the modern church is about experiencing God in some way, or about proving you’re a Christian, through a “change in lifestyle.” We’re too busy about the Master’s work, and we’ve forgotten the Master.
*sigh*
Russ
Rampert on 11 Jan 2009 at 11:21 pm #
Jim, I am glad that you have found the joy of spending time with wife and family, friendships, recreation and the good things of life. In my opinion, this could have been a part of the life of a pastor as well. Further, as a survivor of doubt and assaults to my faith, one of the most liberating facts that I found is that I was no exception. A crisis of faith is not an uncommon thing in the pathway of many Christians. My perspective changed when I came across the struggles of a pastor/missionary (in some ways similar to yours). I am pasting here below a few short paragraphs of his own struggles (in his own words) as he retraced his steps to his own agnostic roots ….
Back in 1951 & 1952, I went through a very deep time in my own life. I had been a pastor for ten years and a missionary for another five, and I was connected with a group who stood very strongly for the truth of the Scriptures. But as I watched, it became clear to me that I saw very little spiritual reality. I had to ask why. I looked at myself as well and realised that my own spiritual reality was not as great as it had been immediately after my conversion. We were in Switzerland at that time, and I said to my wife, “I must really think this through.”
It took about two months, and I walked in the mountains whenever it was clear. And when it was rainy, I walked back and forth in the hayloft over our chalet. I thought and wrestled and prayed, and I went back all the way to my agnosticism. I asked myself whether I had been right to stop being an agnostic and to become a Christian. I told my wife, if it didn’t turn out right I was going to be honest and go back to America and put it all aside and do some other work.
I came to realise that indeed I had been right in becoming a Christian. But then I went on further and wrestled deeper and asked, “But then were is the spiritual reality, Lord, among most of that which it calls itself orthodoxy?” And gradually I found something. I found something that I had not been taught, a simple thing but profound. I discovered of the meaning of the work of Christ, the meaning of the blood of Christ, moment by moment in our lives after we are Christians – the movement-by-movement work of the Holy Trinity in our lives because as Christians we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That is true spirituality. – [The complete works of Francis Schaeffer 'A Christian Worldview' volume three A Christian view of Spirituality, Crossway books, 1982, p416-417].
Maybe you can consider the route taken by Schaeffer since a crisis of faith (in itself not bad) can lead to routes other than agnosticism but lead back to Faith on a far higher plane than before. The book he has written is very detailed AND VERY REAL. I think that you will find it a useful read.
Rampert
Jan on 12 Jan 2009 at 1:22 pm #
Jim’s story has shown up in various places on the Internet for several years (the ones I saw were exactly the same wording, posted by Jim himself on blogs). He is actively proselytizing for his new theology and will probably get many converts who are disillusioned with the ministry.
I don’t see this as a Pentecostal or charismatic issue because I’ve seen it many times in many different denominations as well as secular setting.
As with many service professions, ministers often have a rescuer mentality which is not always bad…it makes great ER doctors and nurses and motivates people to help other people. But it also often seems to go along with a lack of discipline in relationships and boundaries and leads to burnout.
Having the gift of mercy myself I had to work through this issue in my own life and ministry. In fact I would literally stand in front of a mirror and practice saying “No” over and over. I can see how it would be easy to blame the burnout on the church, but I believe it is frequently our lack of discipline and our willingness to sacrifice ourselves and our family to “help” others, thinking we are being spiritual and fulfilling God’s calling.
Codependency is harmful in any setting, whether it’s fostered in a personal relationship like a husband and wife, or an institutional relationship like a pastor and his church. As with any addiction, breaking free gives a sense of freedom and exhilaration and it is not surprising that the object of the addiction becomes demonized.
Jan
Peter on 13 Jan 2009 at 9:01 am #
It seems to me he was in a bad brand of Christianity. How much he fabricated, and how much came from without I don’t know.
He needs to look to the much wider variety of Christian experience in history. It’s not all about 21st century corporate style church. There’s a whole world of spirituality I don’t think he even knows about.
Nathanimal on 14 Jan 2009 at 1:09 pm #
If there was a profound motif to my life it might look like a Q&Q.
When someone asks me “Why are you a Christian”? I respond with a question: “It’s not why am I christian? It’s why am I STILL a christian”?
For all of my lost dreams, disappointments, depression, loss of loved ones, chronic pain, inability to feel and ongoing suffering…somehow I still believe even if its with some sense of confusion and disillusionment. I am broken. I am bleeding. And I cannot find my heart. If anyone has a reason to leave the faith, I do. If anyone has a reason to hate, I do. If anyone has a reason to bash ministry, i do. If anyone has a reason to hate God, I do.
What am I today, in my broken and suffering heart? I lost everything and gained something else. It doesn’t look like anything. It looks stupid. What do I have? Nothing and everything. Somehow, I am someone else. I’m not who I was before. I’m not what I wanted to be. I am bleeding.
Today when I read the bible, I see my brothers and sisters. I see those who came before me and showed me a foretaste of whats to come. Now when I hear them, I hear my family. I lost everything to find truth. What a strange reality this is.
Why am I still a Christian? God knows.
John C.T. on 14 Jan 2009 at 2:18 pm #
Though we all love Jim with the love of Christ, his letter/email is also posted here to engender comment and discussion as to the meaning and significance of what he experienced and where he is now.
Jim’s salvation narrative raises questions of assurance and perserverence. The Bible gives strong assurance of present salvation for those who are in Christ Jesus but does not state that all who presently “believe” will infallibly endure to the end in that faith. The Arminian will be straightforward in acknowledging that the present believe of those who endure and those who don’t is the same, and that it changes in those who do not endure.
The story of Jim, and many stories like his, is a great challenge and weakness for the Calvinist doctrine of inevitable perseverance. That is, there is the reality that many who profess that they have put their faith in Christ, and are personally convinced that they have,, do not endure in that faith until the end. Many who do not perservere start off with impressive track records of loving, trusting, and serving Christ and producing fruit of the Spirit.
The Calvinist must avere that those who fail to perservere were never true believers in the first place. Calvinists questions the integrity of those who abandon the faith and yet claim that they once trusted Christ with all of their hearts and loved God dearly: they only “thought” they loved and trusted Christ but never experienced true faith. Hence, Jim at times past was deluded in his belief that he was a “genuine” saved Christian, but in reality all of his Spiritual fruit was nothing more than the works of the flesh. Given how convinced Jim was of his salvation, it follows that no one, no Calvinist, can know and have assurance that his faith is the real persevering faith. His faith might be the fake faith, and he can’t know if it’s real or fake until after he or she dies.
How can anyone be certain that their present faith and love is real? We all must concede that Jim (at the time he did have saving faith) truly “thought” his faith was genuine despite the fact that it wasn’t. If he was deluded, how can anyone be sure that they are not likewise deceived by their present faith? Christ? Perhaps it only “seems” real to them. How can they be sure that their faith and love for Christ will not someday fail, thereby proving that their faith was never “real” in the first place? and thus they were never “really” saved? Calvinists have consequently developed some truly hideous doctrines to deal with this. A.W. Pink is one of many Calvinists to write about carnal faith:
In the past, dear reader, there have been thousands who were just as confident that they had been genuinely saved and were truly trusting in the merits of the finished work of Christ to take them safely through to Heaven, as you may be; nevertheless, they are now in the torments of Hell. Their confidence was a carnal one; their “faith,” no better than that which the demons have. Their faith was but a natural one which rested on the bare letter of Scripture. It was not a supernatural one, wrought in the heart by God. They were too confident that their faith was a saving one, to thoroughly, searchingly, frequently, test it by the Scriptures, to discover whether or no it was brining forth those fruits which are inseparable from the faith of God’s elect.
Consequently many puritans and Scottish presbyterians developed tests to look inwardly and outwardly to determine if their faith was a real saving faith. And no test ever gave them the assurance they wanted.
John Calvin preceded A.W. Pink, of course, and to deal with the embarrassment of those who do not endure after many years of impressive faith he developed the concept of “evanescent grace.” Calvin posited the idea that God sometimes gives the reprobate a grace and subsequent faith so similar to that of the elect that it is nearly impossible to tell the difference. He says that “experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them.” He calls this “an inferior operation of the Holy Spirit” by which God “illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace.” The Lord apparently gives the reprobate this temporary grace so that He might “better…convict them, and leave them without excuse.”
jody on 28 Feb 2009 at 8:32 pm #
Jim, All I can say is I am happy for you, and for your wife. It sounds like you found your own life. Wishing you all the best, jo
Rahab Klingensmith on 24 Nov 2009 at 4:38 pm #
Hummmmmmm….I would never do that….I personally just wait patiently for them to catch on–The Church, and so often the not so strong at times leadership that resides inside their doors….sooner or later they do learn from their mistakes, as God Himself unfolds His delights for *what He Sees Neccessary and done* ~ and no one else. And…..its usually when we least expect it. Best Wishes to you as well….don’t give up when knowing this….”God uses the least of these for kingdom work, and ministry nessesity laid bare and wide”….
love Rahab