A Theology of Indifference
As many reading probably know, I used to be firmly entrenched in third wave, word/faith, charismatic circles. During that time, there was most certainly hunger and an earnest desire to be on one accord with what God was doing, with how I believed that the Spirit was moving. I did study the Bible, well actually read the Bible, ferociously and was determined to not miss God. I therefore, followed a number of popular teachers (names unmentioned) that had books, megachurches, TV spots, radio programs and conferences to which many would flock. If a book was written by one of these spiritual superstars, I wanted to get it. I faithfully followed the Elijah List, a consortium of today’s “prophetic” voice so I could stay on top of things.
But in gravitating towards popular name brands (because after all, with those kinds of crowds, how can the teaching be off in any way), it does seem like I missed something vitally important…discernment. Don’t get me wrong, I would listen carefully and yes, there were times that things were said, including times in my own church, that I would question or not necessarily agree with. But overall, I would dismiss these fleeting moments of doubt to embrace the larger and grander prize of being in the know, or so I thought. But the ability to really dig in and compare what I was listening to with what Scripture was really communicating was lost on me until about 3 years ago. That is when I became acquainted with a dear brother in Christ who would eventually become of my best friends and he challenged me on how I was reading Scripture. This would usually occur after I would recite whatever latest musings I had grabbed hold of from one of these popular teachers. It was at this time that I really began to study the Scriptures, contextually, comparatively, exegetically and expositionally. Needless to say, since that time some of the positions that I dogmatically would espouse as truth, began to unravel under the microscope of Scriptural examination.
Since that time, I have noticed an alarming trend in my blogging travels, conversations with other Christians and general observations regarding church happenings. People in general want something more, they know about Christ and maybe even profess Him as Lord. They want to know God and to experience Him in their lives. They are taught to read the Bible and do as it says. There are many popular voices for them to listen to help them in their Christian journey. Go into any bookstore and there will be a plethora of resources to utilize. Naturally, I think the ones produced by the name brand will get the bill. But I wonder how much these are carefully considered as being sufficiently accurate compared to what Scripture is saying or are the sermons, resources and teachings automatically received simply because it rings of Christian truth?
I could be wrong, but I do believe there is a concerning lack of discernment in the body of Christ today. It is not obstinance, although with some that may be the case. It is not ignorance, because I think there is just way to much information out there. No, I think the problem is what I will call a theology of indifference. It is simply taking at face value a teacher or teaching as solidly Christian simply because they may teach about Christ, use the Bible and may even have large crowds and popular products and settling for a superficial knowledge of what constitutes our Christian faith.
I would not automatically dismiss folks as being too lazy to care. But I do think there might be many factors contributing to this trend and here are some I am considering:
Pastoral challenges: I do not envy the job of any pastor. He has a responsibility before God to instruct the flock about Christianity and what that should mean for them and to care for the needs of the flock. That is a tough balancing act, I think. People are hurt and come with needs. They want solutions to their problems, which are very real and imminent. Biblical instruction, while very much the charge of any pastor, may not appear to be the instant remedy to that hurting member of the body. How to meet those needs without forsaking the charge of solid Christian education?
And I do believe that the state of discernment rises and falls on the headship of the church. To the degree that the leadership is serious about fostering discernment through solid Biblical education is to the degree that that will most likely filter down to the members. I think there is nothing more grevious, and telling, of a church member who talks more about what their pastor said than what the Bible said.
I think too, there is always the temptation to confuse leadership with agenda promotion. The pastor leads the congregation through serving them, not ruling over them. In the hands of untrained, unstable, and maybe self-serving pastors, who do not themselves have a tight grip on what the Scripture really teaches about the purpose of their job, the way of pastoral care could easily produce spiritually anemic and Biblically illiterate saints who whole-heartedly support his vision that may be confused with Biblical doctrine.
Church challenges: The buildings and organizations we call churches, are in the business of being the church to the body. There are clearly some basics outlined in Scripture, but there is a lot of leeway to conduct corporate gatherings and produce programs that will fulfill the Scriptural mandate of what the church is supposed to be. The buildings called churches exist to foster a community of believers to grow up together in Christ. But similar to the pastoral challenge, the corporate structure of the church could bend so far in accommodating needs that critical Christian education is forsaken as a necessary component of discipleship in response to the demands of the congregation for help with concerns and focus programs around those needs. Please hear me, I am not saying these programs are not needed but it is about balance.
Status of Christian Education: for the first 2 reasons stated above, this is I think is in a dismal state. Again, members of congregations will rise to the occasion of learning to the extent that it is being promoted. A fish rots from the head, as one professional collegue told me years ago. This too, is a challenge. How to teach what every disciple should know in a way that engages them and adequately equips them not only for service but to be able to separate the real from the fake. And if congregations become less concerned about critically learning about their faith, that could seep into the corporate mindset of how programs and education are designed.
My dad was telling me that at his church in Southern CA, which is an Evangelical Free church, that the Adult Bible Fellowship program was abandoned because the congregation was more interested in fellowshipping than sitting in a classroom learning for 45 minutes. To be sure, fellowship and breaking bread together is a necessary component of doing life together. But it cannot take the place of Christian education. And this is the concern, that as desires of congregations are catered to and as churches are faced with dwindling numbers in Adult Bible Fellowship classes, there is a lessening or straight abandonment of teaching Christians about their faith so they will not buy hook, line and sinker anything that comes down the pike.
Disruption of Unity: I have heard this argument many times. Because of the unity that we are to have as believers, pointing out doctrinal differences goes against the grain of the unity espoused in Scripture. Ephesians 4 is usually the white horse that the unity trump card rests on. Besides, didn’t Jesus say that the world will spot disciples by the love that we have for one another? It does seem likely to be dubbed a heresy hunter if you comment about teaching that you believe may not be consistent with a plain reading of Scripture.
I do believe in the unity of the body. But the unity spoken about in Ephesians is solidified on the basis of who Christ is, what He accomplished and who we are in relation to Him. It is not a license to follow blindly any type of teaching that may mention Christ but distorts His character, work or purpose. But again, it is important to understand what the Christian business is all about in order to even make that assessment in the first place.
It is serious business to be a Christ follower and one that we should not take lightly, casually or apathetically. It is not enough to learn a verse a day to keep the devil away or even to get so entrenched with a particular Christian tradition that we abandoned the charge of discipleship, to grow in grace and the true knowledge of Jesus Christ. And we don’t know without a critical examination of our faith to do as the Bereans did in Acts 17:11 to examine the Scripture and see if these things are so.
This shows we care about our faith, about God, about the great salvation that has been given to us, that we are not willing to buy in to any product of Christianity without analyzing it against Scripture and sound doctrine. It shows we care that we are willing to do as Jude commends to earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. There is nothing wrong at all with pointing out distortions but there is everything wrong with not knowing what they are in the first place.
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Truth Unites... and Divides on 05 Jan 2009 at 1:40 am #
A most excellent post Lisa R.!
For the sake of speculation, would Jesus, apostles Paul, Peter, and John be considered “heresy hunters” for their opposition to false teaching, false doctrine, and false teachers?
Gerrie Malan on 05 Jan 2009 at 2:37 am #
Wow! A very enlightening post – just opened it. So much I can relate to from my journey that started out of a conservative, reformed background, through the Pentecostal family into the Charismatic grouping, and then to where I am today – somewhere inbetween it all, striving to find God’s truth in the BIble instead of some wellknown preacher or author’s.
I will respond some more as soon as I have had the opportunity to study in more detail. In the course of my own studies I have also coined a descriptive phrase – Theology of Excuses. Then maybe there’s also place to discuss a Theology of Manipulation?
Gerrie Malan on 05 Jan 2009 at 7:35 am #
Lisa, I have just reread and wish to say that it has been some time since I have received so much wisdom on describing a serious position in the world of modern Christendom. It is as if I’m reading an echo of my own feelings.
I’m not just saying that – have recently produced 4 x 28 minute dvd sessions on the question of rightly dividing the word of truth in my garage equipped as a basic studio. These I give away to family, friends and others, for I’ve found that speaking to them on the subject invites all kind of interruptions, etc. In the words of one friend – “Gerrie, you’re asking me to set aside 40 years of learning!”
My wife and I are also working on a number of books (not necessarily for publication?) on popular modern doctrines – e.g. the trichotomist view of humankind, on being born again, the in Christ concept of Paul, the concepts of the Elect and the Bride, and the end-times industry’s menu. These will be complemented by dvd teachings to enable our friends, etc to first hear and test before tabling their questions and objections.
The word ‘heresy’ is a frequent one I hear. All the while I simply ask that our audience will apply the Berean principle you also propose. I don’t want people to believe me, but to know and believe what the Bible teaches. I have also found valuable and practical insight in Michael’s poser on judging essential doctrine.
Thanks for your insight – it is stated in such inoffensive way, yet sharply addressing a foundational issue to its core. Just hope the spiritual corns will be able to stand it.
LaNeisa Jackson on 05 Jan 2009 at 7:52 am #
Lisa,
Thanks so much for stepping forward on this concern. You are not alone in it. The title of your piece is what initially drew me to it. I have been studying the Sardis church and the overcomers who the Lord said were there; but were “indifferent” in the words of a respected commentator I read. My prayer has been that I do not remain indifferent for the sake of not being a source of division. You covered so many of the points I am concerned about.
This is so tricky because, as you say, this starts from the top down. Keep writing, please.
Lisa Robinson on 05 Jan 2009 at 8:11 am #
Thank you both for your kind comments.
Gerri, if I had it my way, a requirement for membership in any congregation would be a course on how to read the Bible, basic Bible study methods and hermeneutics. I think this is such an overlooked component. But again, folks have to understand WHY that is important.
The next step would be enrollment in the Theology Program (Seriously, Michael did NOT pay me to say that
).
I also think that the separation of the spiritual from the intellectual has produced a false dichotomy of knowing God without knowing God and relying on feelings and emotions. There is nothing anti-spiritual about critically engaging in Biblical and theological instruction. In fact, I’d say its quite the spiritual thing to do.
Gerrie Malan on 05 Jan 2009 at 9:03 am #
Thanks Lisa. Once again, wow! Your last comment is spot on.
Since discovering The Theology Program, (some two years ago?) I have been looking at it again and again. Not so much for formal studies myself (I have a D.Min from Calvary Univ), but for others asking me to mentor them. I think it is a great program. The church I was with had their own ideas, although I was dean of the Bible college at the time.
Currently I’m not formally attached (some would of course disagree, but I’ve had enough of spiritual manipulation) and that has helped me (at age 62) tremendously to discover the Bible as if for the first time. In the process I have been through the experience of tumbling doctrines repeatedly. I do however visit two congregations and have a good relationship with the leaders – who know my position and are not trying to force me into anything. One has asked me recently if I would be willing to help out with their Bible school if they needed help.
Although we are starting up a Bible study (at home probably), I have TTP in mind to recommend to any who wish to take up formal studies. And of course, by mentoring them I will continue to learn (just don’t wanna be an enrolled student no more! After 6 degrees and several diplomas, frankly I’ve had enough).
Maybe I can add – after a career of 25 years as a professional correctional official in South Africa’s Department of Correctional Services, I was a lecturer for 8 years in one of SA’s tertiary institutions. Only started to study first Christian Counselling, and then theology/ministry from undergraduate through doctoral level at age 55. From this background, I have only praise for the quality I’ve seen in the TTP material.
Blessings!
Chris Plunkett on 05 Jan 2009 at 9:34 am #
First time poster, long time reader…..I just had to commend your insight, Lisa, into this very prevelant issue. I come from the other side of the coin…only knowing God (what I thought He was )from the scriptures and our leaders, without truly knowing Him (who He Is).
Study, study , scripture ref this, scripture says that….what does the Word say? What did the leader say? What would the Bereans do?…..so much so that I had no relationship with my Lord except for the paper He was written on.
End result, we were Pharisee’s! The false dichotomy you talk about was full force in our lives, but by elevating scriptures and leaders above God and being the most judgemental group on the planet.
Thankfully, God led us to out of the ”cult”group and mindset and landed us in a humble Sunday School class at a First Baptist church.
It brought the balance in studying the scriptures by allowing the Holy Spirit to be ”our teacher” and through the relationship we have with Him.
I think this is key.
Having said that, here lies the issue again. We are in the only true ”bible study” class out of about 30 in the church. Out of thousands of people in the congregation, we have at max 20 people that attend our class. We are “the deep class” in reputation. It is very interesting to see that the majority of people really want to be spoon fed, and not think for themselves.
I like your idea of having to take some classes on the bible for church membership. I feel that is definately missing in most congregations.
However, My (own) fear of doing too much studying is to become a Pharisee again. I fear it in others also based on this experience. I’d rather DO what little I know, (put into practice )then Know a lot and Do NOTHING.
John T III on 05 Jan 2009 at 9:43 am #
Lisa,
Great post. As I have said before you have a great mind.
Church Discipline is another key component that is missing from the church today.
Susan on 05 Jan 2009 at 12:13 pm #
Lisa, I appreciate your good thoughts here. My pastor has often expressed his concern about the lack of discernment among Christians, often sighting the plethora of books available at our local Christian bookstore which are chock-full of false teaching. I’m sure he often hears church members refer to books they’ve read which cause him to cringe. It is true, that the fundamental problem is that far too few church-going Christians are faithfully studying the word for themselves. Many Christians spend much more time reading Christian books than they do studying God’s word. That is a recipe for absorbing false doctrine. During my extended baby-raising years I did almost no other reading, other than to read the Bible first thing in the morning. I simply didn’t have time for any other reading, and stopped watching TV altogether. I think now that this was just as well. There’s nothing like prioritizing the reading and studying of God’s word, far-and-above all other sources of information, to tune one’s discernment. I would venture to say that few Christians are in the habit of reading God’s word daily—-that is part of the reason why deception so easily creeps into the flock.
Susan on 05 Jan 2009 at 12:28 pm #
Also Lisa, I think that it’s too bad that your father has witnessed this lack of interest in adult Bible fellowship groups on Sundays. A few years ago at our church (also in Southern Calif.) some changes were made. Our service starts at 9:30 am, then we have allowed a 20 min. break on the plaza outside—coffee (free and gourmet–for a price). The adult Bible fellowship classes follow, from 11:10-12:00. This schedule has been well received by all. It is nice that the plaza time was added, because it does give people more opportunity to become acquainted, and hear what’s going on in each other’s lives, but we still have the learning/interaction time afterwards. Perhaps your father could try something like this.
From The Balcony on 05 Jan 2009 at 1:16 pm #
Absolutely wonderful post, Lisa. I can say that though my crooked journey, like yours, led me astray, God, in His infinite mercy kept His hand firmly placed on my shoulder.
Your categories are awesome. In my experience, however, there is another one that should be added perhaps. Before I name it, I want to emphatically restate what you said: pastors have a difficult job balancing what people require of them.
However, I do think that many men who desire to be pastors are misled, under-educated or perhaps pastoring for the wrong reasons. These particular men (which sadly appear to be in the majority) focus so much on the “success” of the church “for Christ” (of course), that the gospel message of Christ becomes buried in the flurry of creating a magnificently well-attended churches that relate with all relevance and authenticity to their community.
Their desire to create this kind of large church takes them away from their first love, which hopefully should be Jesus, Him crucified, buried/resurrected as a sacrifice/atonement for our sin. The gospel message preached from Genesis to Revelation. That message is getting lost and buried in today’s culture. God requires the pastor to first proclaim the message. The peripherals should be secondary. Unfortunately, in my experience, the peripherals seem to have first place in the hearts of many pastors.
I don’t necessarily blame them. I mean this sincerely. Our culture tells them (and prominent leaders of conferences they attend tell them) that this is what God would have them do. Sadly, they believe this lie.
Further, we the laypeople hunger for strong, biblical teaching and we are being force fed pablum, self-help talk and feel-good sermons. I’m so weary of this. I know I am not alone. We have a whole army of parishioners that drag their feet to go to church every Sunday, knowing they must for the sake of community, yet knowing it is a waste of time.
So let’s add a category for Pastoral Discernment….because there appears to be a lack of this very important quality in the pastoral ministry today. Let’s ask our pastors to stand against the norm – not fall prey to contemporary ideologies and processes to grow their church in the world’s way. Let’s ask them to consider what God says…..that the world will hate us…..that we will not be popular….that we should not try to look like the rest of the world…we should remain faithful to the Word of God first and foremost. Otherwise, the gospel we are handing down to our children is no longer the gospel but instead a feel-good mentality.
Pastors, please teach us. Teach us accurately and deeply. We are craving this more than you think. Trust me, we want to support you in this very important venture. You see, it affects us deeply – in every aspect of our lives. Don’t give us a list on how to make things better. Tell us what God says (not what you interpret He says). When you speak the words of God – when you read them aloud — read them in context — then the Holy Spirit can work within the life of your congregation. Your personal opinions have no power.
Your decision to teach accurately would go a long way in preventing the Elijah Lists of the world from appearing in the first place. If the Spirit of God is in us, then we recognize whether you are teaching things of value. Please….teach us ….and teach us accurately.
I know….we are only the lay people….but we can see.
minnowspeaks on 05 Jan 2009 at 1:21 pm #
I came early this morning grabbed a copy of your post and worked on the following comment. When I came back there were many more comments. Sorry I couldn’t read them all before I needed to go. I will try to get back to this later tonight.
Not knowing what the third wave, word/faith charismatic circles you were a part of actually espouse I am unable to understand whether what you write here is (as it seems in the first part of your post) directed at a specific type of teaching by the charismatic circles you experienced or is (as it seems later in the post) a general criticism of the lack of solid Biblical teaching in many congregations these days. In other words, I am unclear as to why you talked so much about the charismatic circles you experienced before introducing the topic of the Theology of Indifference.
You define your theology of indifference as: “simply taking at face value teachers or teachings as solidly Christian simply because they may teach about Christ, use the Bible and may even have large crowds and popular products, and settling for a superficial knowledge of what constitutes our Christian faith.” This definition can be applied within non-charismatic circles as well the charismatic experience you have had and to that end I understand and can sympathize with your concern.
You wrote:
“There is always the temptation to confuse leadership with agenda promotion. The pastor leads the congregation through serving them, not ruling over them. In the hands of untrained, unstable, and maybe self-serving pastors, who do not themselves have a tight grip on what the Scripture really teaches about the purpose of their job, the way of pastoral care could easily produce spiritually anemic and Biblically illiterate saints who whole-heartedly support his vision that may be confused with Biblical doctrine.” (Italics mine).
The picture you paint of certain pastors is definitely a cause for concern. For me it borders on abuse of power and again, sadly, is found throughout the Church. Your concern: “How to teach what every disciple should know in a way that engages them and adequately equips them not only for service but to be able to separate the real from the fake.” is admirable. But, the problem is, at least in part, defining what “every disciple should know”. In addition, people learn in different ways. I have four dyslexic children. If you were to tell them that the only way they can learn about their faith and who God is, is if they study scripture as you have (or as you advocated later in your comment), they might be inclined to tell you that your God is not worth knowing and for them your faith not attainable.
I hardily agree with your statement that: “It is not enough to learn a verse a day to keep the devil away or even to get so entrenched with a particular Christian tradition that we abandoned the charge of discipleship, to grow in grace and the true knowledge of Jesus Christ.” I would simply add a caution that “discipleship and growing in grace and the true knowledge of Jesus Christ” can sometimes be accomplished in ways other then academic. Mentoring and modeling come to mind.
Finally, you wrote: “I also think that the separation of the spiritual from the intellectual has produced a false dichotomy of knowing God without knowing God and relying on feelings and emotions.” I would argue that the separation of the intellectual from the emotional and the discounting of experience by the intellectually and spiritually smug (not putting anyone in particular in that group) has produced cold hearted, Pharisee-like leadership, concerned more with maintaining their power-base and reputations as the holders of truth.
The extremes are dangerous on both ends.
Wayne in Frisco on 05 Jan 2009 at 1:28 pm #
Lisa,
You’ve hit the nail on the head addressing a very important issue within the church today. Thank you for the thoughtful and thought provoking post.
Might I recommend a book on the subject: “The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment” by Tim Challies at http://www.Challies.com.
I look forward to seeing more of your posts.
Lisa R on 05 Jan 2009 at 2:09 pm #
Minnow,
As someone who has taught Sunday School working one-on-one with an autistic youth, so he can learn about the Bible in a way that he understands, I could hardly raise the charge you levy against me. The issue is what they learn not how they learn. Hope that makes sense.
Daniel Brady on 05 Jan 2009 at 4:44 pm #
I could not agree more. What you have said here echoes my concern over the number of people who follow the false teachers that are so prominent on “Christian television.” Yes, I get angry with these teachers for deceiving the Church. But then I get angry with the fact that so many are blindly following them.
And why? I agree that there is a lack of discernment within the Body of Christ. Unfortunately, too many Christians take the attitude that says, “The preacher knows the Bible better than I do. So if he says it, it must be true.” More of them would do well to heed the advice I received from my pastor several years ago. He said to me, “When I say something from behind the pulpit, don’t take my word for it. You go home and study the Scriptures for yourself, to determine whether what I say is right or wrong. And if I am wrong, please come talk to me about it.”
On the other hand, though, is the problem really a lack of discernment or indifference? Or could it be more insidious than that? Paul warned of a day when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, they will gather to themselves men who will tell them what their itching ears want to hear.
Could it be that that day has indeed arrived? Consider the argument you receive from the followers of these teachers. They defend them to the hilt. I was once warned “not to speak out against the Lord’s anointed.” To which, I had to respond by saying that the person I was criticizing was not the Lord’s anointed.
But my point is that my opponent had no interest in hearing the biblical reasons for my criticism of the one he followed. When those who are wrong do not want to admit that they are wrong, then they will label you as being judgmental or divisive. Anything to avoid discussion about true biblical doctrine. They do not want to hear it. They only want to hear what their itching ears want to hear.
learning on 05 Jan 2009 at 4:52 pm #
Hey Lisa,
Good post on discernment and good thoughts on discipleship.
But it sounds like you were a part of the stereo-typical -TBN- charismatic circle ( ex: ” Learn a verse a day to keep the devil away ” ). I agree with you on lack of discernment when it comes to that circle. I have checked out a church in my area that fits into that circle and I did not like or agree with some of the things said…..I wouldn’t attend it. But it sounds like you have basically reacted to one side and gone off to the other polar oppositte? Lisa what are your thoughts on Reformed charismatics?
And when it comes to false teaching and false doctrine I would agree with you. But I think some people are a bit turned off by those two words or things like discernment because many of the people who are known to emphasize these things come off as a bit rigid and cold and graceless. We need both grace and Truth. Without grace we can push a crushing legalism.
Douglas K. Adu-Boahen on 05 Jan 2009 at 5:11 pm #
Great post! There is a rabid anti-intellectualism that goes on in much of evangelicalism and those who have embraced it make many excuses for it. Always encouraging to read someone who sees that knowledge is just as important as emotion.
From The Balcony on 05 Jan 2009 at 5:41 pm #
Learning – that is an excellent point. As an mainstream evangelical turned reformed….sometimes it is hard to see some of the extremes (on both sides). For instance, I recently listened to a sermon by an Orthodox Presbyterian minister and loved the depth of teaching – yet when you read denominational literature, there is legalism entrenched within the system. (my opinion)
Thus, as a layperson, I have to decide: what must I settle for? A more legalistic side in order to get sound teaching — or a more balanced (in my view) non-essential side and suffer with poor teaching. (This comment is based on what is available in my own community…)
I’m curious, Lisa – to your comments on this. I’m not charismatic in the slightest, but like Michael, I tend to be “open” towards it if I am ever given evidence to believe it.
However, the abuse within most of the charismatic community is enough to push me far, far away……thus, probably erring on the side of legalism, (which I don’t condone..). In addition, I know some very faithful charismatics whose faith I would never question.
Lisa Robinson on 06 Jan 2009 at 12:58 am #
Hey guys, thanks for the responses. I have experienced an unfortunate incident this evening in that there was a fire in my apartment building starting in the apartment directly above me. My son and I are fine and are stuff was spared but I will now have to find a new place to live. In this trusting the Lord of course.
Kathy and Learning, I most definitely want to respond to your to your comments as I have some definite things to say. Please bear with me if it takes another day or two. Thanks.
Gerrie Malan on 06 Jan 2009 at 1:11 am #
To all: the topic is in itself perhaps just too large to deal with in a blog. James probably meant it when he wrote in his Epistle that not all should desire to be teachers.
But just some thoughts for all of us (including all church leaders) to consider:
In South Africa 75% of the population say they are Christian. Yet the community is held ransom by wave upon wave of violent crime. Etc.
According to a wellknown USA evangelist (on TV, yes!) 85% of the USA population say they are Christian. Yet, the Bible is banned from schools. “Hollywood” is perhaps the primary exporter of moral rubbish to the world at large? Etc.
The George Barna Research Group found in 2006 that 49% of Protestant pastors in the USA did not have a Biblical worldview.
A body has different parts (as Paul writes) but is one body. I think it means they work together in harmony. But in Christendom there are some 38 000 denominations.
Not a great picture of the level & impact & and reliability, etc of Biblical understanding and teaching in the church at large, is it? I remember hearing a Jewish lady testify how she went to different churches looking for God but not finding Him there. Chinese brother Yun, in his life story The Heavenly Man, writes that God’s word is missing from much of the Western church. He goes as far as stating that Jesus is not welcome in many churches.
I have seen several South African church leaders and theologians declare that truth is relative and that the church should accommodate different nuances of truth, for only then could they safely feel part of the Christian community. One theologian recently stated in an interview that “many pastors of the reformed denomination he came from feel as he does that Jesus was only a prophet, without the divinity ascribed to Him through religious folklore and manipulation, but they can’t do anything, for the church is their bread and butter”.
So much so then, apart from discernment for the integrity of some teachers/preachers. And I thank God for those who serve Him not only with their mouths, but their hearts also.
I could go on, but I think it is enough to illustrate the time has come for a new generation of true believers and leaders to arise. My generation has failed, despite producing a number of great and truly believing leaders!
Dave Z on 06 Jan 2009 at 1:12 am #
It always makes me a little nervous to see someone claim discernment, because it usually seems to mean “I’m right and you’re wrong.”
I too have been through several “flavors” of Christianity and have been surprised to find that schools of thought that I once was likely to ridicule can actually have a valid basis for their beliefs. My experience has taught me humility and a certain hesitancy to dismiss someone else’s beliefs (though I do have a deep doubts about some teachings, such as the prosperity/word of faith movements). The web is far too full of those who call themselves discerning and use their websites to demean and slander other believers.
I frequent this blog because I love theology and long to understand God better, but I always try to to remember that knowledge tends to puff up. My real goal is to love God and to love others more fully day by day, (remember that ALL of the law is summed up in those two commands) and to that end, I would hope that whatever influence I might have on those around me would encourage them to grow in obedience to whatever amount of truth they might have.
To restate, sometimes I think that our greatest need is not more knowledge, but more obedience to what we already know – love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
Gerrie Malan on 06 Jan 2009 at 6:17 am #
Lisa, sorry to hear about the mishap. Trust you will already have found a good place.
Dave, your probably right, and then perhaps not? We could add to your list: I have a word from the Lord…, the Lord shows me…, teachers who teach boldly saying “the Bible says…”, etc.
In the end there is only one plumbline to test with – the Bible in the hands of a ‘Berean’, really intending to find the truth. I cannot force anyone to believe what I teach. That is why I insist on being a facilitating teacher rather than an instructional one. I will teach my understanding, make sure my audience knows it is my understanding and why, then teach or help them (e.g. with questions) to search the Scriptures to see if I have it right. They are invited always to come to me if they feel I have it wrong, so that we can find the truth together. I am certainly not above making a mistake – but then, it remains a mistake only as long as I do not rectify it.
During my three years of pastoring a congregation, my sermon/teaching would always end: are there any questions? Sadly, too many teachers/preachers do not tolerate disagreement or questions (not even when you approach them in confidence and privacy).
I cannot blame anyone for what I believe that might be wrong. It is my responsibility to prayerfully exercise discernment with the Bible as my guide.
The combination of spiritual and intellectual? I have unfortunately had too many experiences of over spiritualization – e.g. 2 Cor. 5:17 taken out of context (if you are in Christ there is no need for any counselling, etc., for the old is passed and the new has come). Its amazing how often facts are answered by manipulative spiritualization.
Just a thought: one of the first things I teach is the fact that the Scriptures were not written with chapters and verse numbers, that the people of the time read a letter/book as a whole, and also the history and tragedy of the fragmentation that we inherited by the theological creation called prooftexting. Much of our wrong doctrines can be directly ascribed to these. We can also gain considerable understanding by placing Paul’s letters in the sequence they were written in.
I therefore support Lisa in a call for discernment – not the reckless or indifferent category, but that which comes from sound study of the Bible. Consider, for example, how the 1st Epistle of Peter is presented in our modern churches. Then study closely who really it was written to. Lastly reconsider the modern application and try to see if it really fits.
Thus my advice will always be: receive what the preacher or teacher says and then search the Scriptures for yourself – only then decide. With this focus I am able to take the truth from the reformed sector, the evangelicals, the pentecostals and the charismatics, etc. I have found truth among them all.
Lisa Robinson on 06 Jan 2009 at 7:24 am #
Thanks Gerrie. We spent a night in a motel and will indeed have to find new housing. It is an inconvenience but thankfully we are ok.
Dave, I appreciate your concerns and I agree with you that in the end it is not about knowledge since all that produces is a big headed person who may be able to expound on great Biblical truths but undermines the grace, care and concern that should reflect a humbled walk with God.
But here too, I think we should not confuse humility with apathy. I do realize there are extremes. As one of the commentors mentioned about being a Bible expositor legalist, that we can have all Scripture and no heart. But the point that I’m trying to make by having discernment is not that we have all the answers because I for one am nowhere near that.
I think God has condescended so greatly to communicate to us His thoughts and plans through the diverse writings of 40 different authors. Loving God, I think, entails desiring as best as possible to understand what that communication entails. Gerrie, has raised an excellent point about the fragmentation of Scripture that some unfortunately, have exploited for their own twists. Often this is mixed in with truth but a little leaven… My point is how will someone know where those distortions are that quite frankly could end up shipwrecking their faith because now there is an inaccurate image, consideration and expectation from God that is far removed from how He has communicated it through Scripture.
I don’t advocate for disagreement because something may not line up concisely with all my theological ducks. I engage quite a bit in very amicable discussion, especially on Theologica, with folks that in one area or the other, I may be in sharp disagreement with. But I have to consider how pertinent is the disagreement to the essentials of the faith. Some things are worth fighting for, especially if one is distorting those essentials. Remember Michael’s circle? Some things are not but really important to discuss. But my point in saying everything I wrote about is how will you know?
Lisa Robinson on 06 Jan 2009 at 7:48 am #
So that gets back to Learning and Kathy’s (From the Balconey) question and comments about reformed charismatics.
First, I’d have to say to Learning that while I may have been exposed to some fringe extremes, I have also been exposed to some balanced, thoughtful, knowledgeable and even scholarly charismatics. I have not run to the other corner because of experiences (I think i had mentioned that before) but because after really engaging in the Biblical text and reading it contextually and expositionally, I’ve come to some different conclusions. Trust me, I was quite content in my high wave circle. It was not easy being challenged.
In terms of reformed charismatics, I encounter some. Scott L, who frequently comments here and actively engages on Theologica is one (sorry Scott for calling you out). I have nothing but respect for this dear brother and admire his exegesis and scholarship not to mention heart for worship and irenic discussion. And we disagree sharply on some things involving continuation of gifts. I would not put him in the fringe camp simply because he believes in the full continuation of gifts because I think he has a pretty good handle on the essentials, on which we do pretty much agree.
minnowspeaks on 06 Jan 2009 at 8:42 am #
Lisa–I am unsure what charge you think I have leveled against you. When I wrote: “I have four dyslexic children. If you were to tell them that the only way they can learn about their faith and who God is, is if they study scripture as you have (or as you advocated later in your comment), they might be inclined to tell you that your God is not worth knowing and for them your faith not attainable.” I used the word “if” to indicate a hypothetical comment. I’m sure your Sunday school work was challenging having worked with a variety of learning disabilities in the developmentally disable population myself. Seriously, I was leveling no “charge” only saying many learn in ways other than acedemic.
ScottL on 06 Jan 2009 at 9:07 am #
Thanks Lisa.
Am I ‘reformed charismatic’?
I follow only the Scriptures.
As one man said – ‘Too much Word and you dry up; too much Spirit and you blow up! You need both.’
I thought that was funny.
J.R. on 06 Jan 2009 at 11:23 am #
Nice post Lisa
I joined a moderately conservative Baptist Church eight years ago and shortly after joining everyone told me I needed to attend a class called One on One with God, everyone raved about it. So I said “hey, its got a catchy name why not”. I took a friend with me and we both started the class. The book, One on One with God was created by a couple who belonged to the church and its content is very good. The premise to the class was to bring you into a closer relationship with God through reading, prayer, and meditation of God’s word. But the way it was taught was foreign to me.
We would begin the class by reading the verses we were about to discuss and after the reading each one in the class was asked to paint themselves into the verses, meditate on the verse, and then pray it back to God. Basically, the prayer was the individuals hermeneutic of the verses. This was the premise to bringing one closer to God. The prayers back to God were as varied as the individuals in the class. Reader response hermeneutic was being taught and blessed by the instructor. Historical setting, genre, authorial intent, and context of meaning were completely left out. I hate to say this but basically it was biblical docetism. We were reading God’s word and seeing what God had to say to us at that particular time.
After the end of the third class I spoke with the instructor about my concerns and he gracelessly defended what he was doing. For me, I could not in good conscience continue to bring my friend to this class.
As Michael has stated in his classes we have turned God’s word into a magic book and everything has direct meaning to us in our particular situation. My prayer still is for our church to bring in Michael program and get back to basics. I don’t know if I can go as far as you in stating a theology of indifference but I will go as far and say a theology of ignorance (lacking education and knowledge).
If I had it my way a requirement for any lay teacher would be going through the Theology Program. I believe it’s essential for discipleship training and bringing one to Christian maturity.
Radical Legacy » Blog Archive » Taking “Christian” Teachings at Face Value? on 06 Jan 2009 at 12:06 pm #
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Dennis Elenburg on 12 Jan 2009 at 11:50 am #
From The Balcony wrote:
> Tell us what God says (not what you interpret He says).
What does this mean? Isn’t the purpose of the pastor teacher to help the student not only observe what the text says, but also interpret what it means and apply it in his or her life? Isn’t interpretation of the Word a necessary and essential part of the Christian life?
LaNeisa Jackson on 12 Jan 2009 at 1:57 pm #
What a great question. The Bible says that there is no private interpretation of scripture. What is the difference between someone’s understanding of the text and the intrepretation of the text in context? Maybe that is the “looking through a glass dimly” analogy.
Lisa Robinson on 12 Jan 2009 at 5:58 pm #
Dennis, not to speak for On the Balconey, but I think if you consider that sentence in context of the entire paragraph, the point she is trying to make is for leaders not to tout their own vision as doctrine or build on a text that is out of context in order to support their own ideas. Naturally, we need pastors and leaders to guide. But that guidance should be teaching the flock what the book is actually saying.
From The Balcony on 12 Jan 2009 at 7:29 pm #
Yes, Lisa, that is what I am trying to say. I have seen so many sermons built on passages that have nothing to do with the context of the passage! Pastors should not “interpret” scripture, although it inevitably happens (our humanness). Pastors, in my opinion, should teach what the passage says, in literary and historical context, and allow God’s word to interpret itself. God’s word does not come back void to us. The gospel message is spoken through God’s own words. When we “interpret” scripture, I believe we have the tendency to begin to over-spiritualize it. Again, only my opinion. That’s probably one of the biggest things the church is fighting today — the over-spiritualization of scripture.
To respond to Dave Z about his statement: To restate, sometimes I think that our greatest need is not more knowledge, but more obedience to what we already know – love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
I would ask this question…..how can you be obedient to that which you do not know? Knowledge and obedience go hand in hand. Love is sometimes easier to accomplish – the Spirit teaches us that. I absolutely agree we must be obedient, but in order to do so, I must understand what I’m expected to be obedient to.
Gerrie Malan on 13 Jan 2009 at 2:51 am #
To the Balcony: Wonderful. I’ve been making the over-spiritualization caution for some time now. 2 Cor. 5:17 is probably one of the most generally abused scriptures today.
Just as a thought in this regard, thinking of the frightening array of end-times doctrines we are confronted with: what if the content and context and other basic principles of understanding what the Bible says proves the Book of Revelation to be a fulfilled book? Just think – a whole multi-million dollar industry has been built on all the fear-inducing interpretations that have been flying around! The Good News has become Bad News. There are even congregations that will suffer severe financial damage if they should deviate from the end-times prophets’ doctrines!
Galatians was seemingly Paul’s first letter, and it is a letter of Grace! Just put Paul’s letters into their correct sequence and preachers will already have something to think about in their interpretations. Paul gives an important principle in 1 Cor. 4:6 (although he has a specific context), and that is not to go beyond what is written.
From The Balcony on 13 Jan 2009 at 12:35 pm #
Gerrie
I so agree with you about Revelation! The ethereal hyper-spiritualized notions about this important book mislead so many. But I can’t always blame the people (like LaHaye) writing what they do. Sadly, people give them a market to promote it. People are deceived by their own hearts. That alone speaks loudly that we need a Savoir.
I love that Galatians verse
Gerrie Malan on 14 Jan 2009 at 12:06 am #
From the Balcony, how right you are. But now we’ve also moved full circle, haven’t we? They are given the market by people because of the theology of indifference that is so part of much of the Christian community out there. TV evangelists keep it alive through their impressive revelations, oratories and best seller books. And these are not always so honest and open.
A well-known TV theologian, for example, revealed a year or so ago that he had found proof that people who describe the rapture doctrine as a modern one are wrong. After ten years (sic) of searching he had found something written by Ephraem the Syriac, an early century (fourth, I think) church father that explained what seemed to be the rapture doctrine. I consequently researched it, to find that he misled people by not disclosing as he knew) that the document was not by Ephraem, but someone known as Pseudo-Epohraem, and seemingly a century or two later.
The great rapture verse comes from 1 Thes., which seems to be Paul’s second letter. If that is such a big deal doctrinally, why would Paul then not expound it in his other (longer) letters which followed? So I’m also back with Michael’s proposed criteria of a while back on judging essential doctrine. And clearly his proposals can help against a theology of indifference!
It is time for true elders to arise in the church at large, who stand for Biblical truth and not modern nuances of the truth, and take the preachers and teachers and all the other title and status happy people to task. Michael has certainly been taking some brave but responsible steps in his writings – we need many more like him!!!
If we do what you support, Biblical truth becomes very, very interesting and insightful. To whet your appetite (if you have not already reseached it): (1) Who are the Elect? The Bible seems to describe a specific generation? (2) Who is the Bride really – for how long is a woman regarded as a bride?
From The Balcony on 14 Jan 2009 at 12:18 am #
If we go there….this post won’t be about indifference anymore
Lisa would need to start a new on on eschatology…..and we all know how that will go….
Gerrie Malan on 14 Jan 2009 at 1:03 am #
Just a thought: if we could get John Pew to:
*understand that the Bible is the primary interpreter of the Bible
*The Bible did not originally have chapters and verses and books were read as a whole (and people did not string verses together to build a truth)
*put the New Testament letters in the sequence they were written in (James probably being the first one?)
*understand who the letter was written to and why
*understand what can and what cannot be generalized to us today
then maybe we’ll understand better just what the kingdom place and role of that specific generation was, and so understand better who we are!
Blessings to all!
Dr. G. on 18 Apr 2009 at 10:52 am #
Are we enetirely sure there is a good, solid, identifiable core? Or where it is?
The Bible says in conjunction with remarks on churches, that there will be many “branches”; and we won’t know which one is good, until “fire” tests them, in the End.
The Bible even speaks of problems with “foundation,”s and cornerstones and pillars.
So … shouldn’t we allow the “freedom of Christ”? Though to be sure, except for Pentacostals.
Lisa Robinson on 18 Apr 2009 at 11:19 am #
Dr. G, I’m not sure I understand your comment in relation to the post. I do believe that there are some things we can be certain about with respect to our faith that is outlined in the Bible. Since the Bible is the final arbiter of our Christian activity, that activity must be judged according to what the Bible says.
There are areas of tension as well as interpretation difficulties. And because of this, there have been interpretation differences but that unfortunately does mean there is more than one meaning. Nor do I think we can just dismiss interpretation deviations as just having “freedom in Christ”. In context of the post, I would say that is the problem. That we have generally resigned to 1) understanding the core; 2) reconciling deviations with the Biblical prescription and 3) not considering it important enough to investigate. That does not mean you become a heresy hunter but we should be able to spot error, especially in reference to the essentials of the faith.
In terms of your comment “except for Pentacostals”, what exactly do you mean by that? It seems a bit harsh and unfair. Please expound.
Dr. G. on 18 Apr 2009 at 11:58 am #
“Pentacostals” was a joke; I would have left a smiley face there, if I knew how to make one. Though incidentally, there does seem to be a “Cessastionist” conversation, going on around the corner on this blog, regarding Pentacostals.
Your remark in any case, guessed my first point correctly: how sure are we, perhaps even of the core, that we should go heresy-hunting.
Still though, I agree with you, that we can find some reasonably sure things. And I will tell you several approaches I find useful, in letting others know they might be making theological mistakes. My first tack on this one, is not to go heresy hunting; but …
1) To point to parts of the Bible that contradict what they way.
2) But then especially, I simply ask people to stop presenting their ideas, as the ideas of “God.” Telling them that parts of the Bible contradict their views – and then asking them especially to, in the future, not ever invoke the name “God” over their views. But simply present whatever they think God said, as their own … opinion.
There are strong traditions to back this. Especially, consider this:
Today, everyone shouts out that “God says” this, or “God says” that; without any real foundation. So how do we fix this? In the old days of Judaism, the name of “God” was so sacred, that no one was allowed to pronounce it or write it in public. (Today, many Jews and others still follow this, by writing “God” in some coded way: “G-d,” etc… Indeed, they followed similar prohibitions so closely, that for a long time, we did not know about the name “Jaweh”; and are not entirely sure about it today in fact)
So, actually, and seriously, I would recommend something like this again: lets start telling people the name of God is sacred, and to stop using it in public.
Let’s remind everyone, that to speak allegedy for “God,” to start issuing statements in the name of God, is a very, very, very serious responsibility.
And the Bible warned about those who step into that role too quickly. Those who “teach” for example, “make many mistakes.” And therefore, “not many of you should be teachers.” Because it is one thing to mislead one’s self; but to be a bad teacher is to mislead many others too; as James warned. For that reason, James warned, the penalty for sinning or erring as a teacher or minister, would be much greater than for others. Because they mislead not only themselves, but many others. (Cf. however “The New Evangelization,” which for a while seemed to cross this?)
So, how do we keep these legions of mislead persons, from bellowing their bad opinions of religion, as the word of “God” over the airways? Telling us that “God says” we must vote Republican in the next election? Or next: “God said” we should buy Pepsi, instead of Coca-Cola?
Why don’t ministers all begin a campaign, to make the name, word, “God,” holy again? To insist in sermons, that people do not invoke the name, much at all (if ever).
This seems strange at first. But 1) its extremely traditional.
And 2) in actual practice, your average, educated minister, … does something much like this. Oddly enough, if you listen, the educated minister uses the phrase “God said” etc., very seldom. Because of course, the more we know, we more we discover how fallible our opinions are. Even our ideas about God.
It is precisely the worst preachers – and often the very worst people, from Muslim terrorists to others – that constantly shout, that “God” backs their opinions.
So why don’t we … caution the people, about … invoking the name “God”? And making the name of God holy again?
By the way; would the command not to “take the name of the Lord in vain,” relate to this, as Biblical precident, in your opinion?
Lisa Robinson on 18 Apr 2009 at 12:14 pm #
Dr. G, I couldn’t agree with you more. Having come out of a church culture where speaking for God was quite common and sought after, I see now how irreverent that is. He and His word should be approached with fear and trepidation. Not sure if you read my other post on Submission, Authority and our Rebellious Tendencies but that was at the heart of that post.
I started coming around when a friend challenged me, very similar to the approach you describe. Basically, he was just pointing me to the Biblical text and ask that I consider what it says and contrast that with what I’m thinking it says and what I’m thinking Christian living is based on popular ideas. It was challenging but I had to let the Bible speak for itself. That does not mean I have it all together, for I’m sure there are some things I’m still getting wrong but am willing to acknowledge those things if the witness of Scripture contradicts it. However, in the end, some will stubbornly cling to their own ideas but then its God responsibility to correct not ours. All we can do is point to what the text says.
And yes, I do agree that taking the Lord’s name in vain is attributing to Him words He did not say but claim that He did. Michael Patton has a post from months ago on that exact same topic.
Kara Kittle on 18 Apr 2009 at 1:06 pm #
Lisa,
Have you been following Dr. G’s comments on abortion?
Dr. G…it’s made like this….:) colonendquote…no space in between.
And guess what Dr. G, I am a Pentecostal…go figure.
Lisa Robinson on 18 Apr 2009 at 1:16 pm #
Kara, to be honest, no. I am nearing the end of my semester and have much school work. The fact that I’m even on here, writing and commenting is a stretch but I think that is part of my insanity…LOL.
But since you mentioned it, I did glance over there. Without really reading comments carefully, I will say that what he has said on that topic doesn’t really have any bearing on this one. In taking his comments at face value here, I would tend to agree with what he has written specific to this topic.