Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 4): Excursus

# on 28 Dec 2008
Spiritual Gifts

Comments (42)

Related Posts

• Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 6): Excursus: It's Not About Miracles!
• “If there are Modern Day Prophets, then the Canon is Still Open” . . . And Other Stupid Statements
• Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 3): Prophecy and Healings
• Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 2)
• Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 8): I am a De Facto Cessationist

42 Responses to “Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 4): Excursus”

1. bethyada on 28 Dec 2008 at 8:31 pm #

   And we have to be able to use our head and discern any and everything.

   I think this is a key comment. We must be discerning.

   Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good.Abstain from every form of evil. (1 Thessalonians)

   I also think one must be careful not to reject something because of its abuse. There are hundreds of false religions yet Christianity is true.

2. Daniel Eaton on 28 Dec 2008 at 9:15 pm #

   I appreciate your comments. I especially appreciate your conclusion about false hope. So many people doubt *God* now because of Him not following through with something that someone *else* said He was going to do. This does more harm than good. Not quite the “sign” that we see in the Biblical accounts.

3. Truth Unites... and Divides on 28 Dec 2008 at 10:24 pm #

   (Disclaimer: I haven’t read all 4 parts of this on-going series.)

   I’m rather agnostic about the issue, perhaps leaning ever so mildly to a gentle cessationist position, yet remaining open to the Spirit moving in ways today that are consistent with what Scripture says.

   My concern about the Charismatic movement is when some well-meaning, well-intentioned Charismatics have unknowingly given the impression to young-in-the-faith Christians that to be an “authentic” Christian, you’ll start to exhibit gifts like speaking in tongues. And then when some of these young-in-the-faith Christians pray for and don’t receive the gift of tongues, then some of them might believe that they are not Christians! Yaaaaack!

   I liken this event to well-intentioned, well-meaning Christians who lovingly counsel those Christ-believers who struggle with same-sex attraction and behavior that if they fully submit themselves to Christ, then the same-sex attractions and temptations will abate. Many times they do, but many times they don’t. And if they don’t, then they might not believe that they are loved and elected by God… since they still have those homosexual lusts and thoughts.

   Taking up one’s cross is challenging enough. No need to add more to it.

4. Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell on 28 Dec 2008 at 10:36 pm #

   I am what you might call a quiet charismatic. When it comes to charismatic gifts, I probably have a view closest to the Vineyard, that God gifts people for a situation, but not necessarily perpetually bestow them with that gift.

   I am 45 years old now, I have experienced a number of different churches across the theological spectrum.

   In that 45 years I have experienced:

   The gift of discerning spirits – once: It only presented itself once where a Pastor needed to be informed of an evil influence in his congregation I was visiting. (Boy did I feel awkward in that situation. The Pastor on the other hand knew exactly what I was talking about.)

   The gift of healing – once (that I am aware of): I firmly believe that God healed me of an alcohol addiction.

   The gift of prophecy – twice: (Or at least prophecy is closest to what it would fall under.) Twice I have had God tell me in no uncertain terms that he had a specific task for me in another city from where I was currently living. This was despite the fact that my current ministry was going remarkably well.

   That is four occurrences in 45 years. Once a decade. So is this normative? When we look at the Old Testament prophets, and divide the population of Israel by the frequency of recorded prophecies, how often did they occur in people years? Not very often. So does normative necessarily equal frequent?

   On a side note: I had a friend who God seemed to have empowered with a prophetic gift. He would be in situations, like sitting on a city bus, when it seemed like God was telling him something very particular to tell to a stranger. After much prompting by God he would go and speak to that stranger, and would end up speaking directly into that that person’s situation. This happened time after time over the course of a summer. At the end of the summer my friend decided that God was calling him into ministry. So he went to Dallas Theological Seminary (20 years ago mind you) where he learned that such gifts no longer existed. He came back a very different person, and never entered ministry.

   Did he have some sort of prophetic gift? I believe he absolutely did. Was it intended to be a life time gift or only for a season. God only knows.

   Perhaps some of our issues arise from the fact that people believe they have a certain gift for life, when God has only given it for a season. Believing they have the gift when they don’t, they start to force it.

   Anyway, my apologies for having somewhat random thoughts in this comment, but I would be interested in hearing what others might have to say on the issue.

5. Scripture Zealot on 28 Dec 2008 at 10:56 pm #

   I think the main problem with prophecy is that most people don’t know what it really is from a Biblical point of view. Most of the time it’s not fortune telling.
   Jeff

6. Lisa Robinson on 28 Dec 2008 at 11:07 pm #

   Jeff, I agree with you. I think prophecy had a specific purpose regarding delivering the word of the Lord. I think too, it gets confused with word of wisdom or knowledge, which would probably be more normative.

7. Jonathan Bartlett on 29 Dec 2008 at 12:28 am #

   A few things:

   1) I went to a charismatic Vineyard Church for a while. There were a mix of people genuinely prophetically gifted and people who were just making it up. Perhaps I have a gift of discernment, but for me it was easy to tell the fakers from the real deal. I come from a background which acknowledges the possibility of charismatic giftings but that doesn’t emphasize them, or rarely have them practiced, so Vineyard was my first experience with full Charismatics. Vasically, the true prophets would speak without having to know something was wrong. The false prophets would speak after hearing about your problems through the grapevine, and act as if their words of encouragement were prophecies from the Lord.

   2) Note that not all unfulfilled prophecy is wrong. Think of Jonah. There is a legend about Jonah that he was known as a false prophet because God kept on forgiving the people he preached to, and therefore his prophecies did not occur. However, if prophecy is consistently wrong then the prophet should be examined.

   3) I have two friends who are true prophets, though neither would call themselves that. I remember once when I had three questions I was asking God (and no one else) on the way to Church. During prayer time, I came forward just to kneel at the alter and pray. My prophet friend came up, put her hands on me and said, “God is saying to you …” and then answered each of the questions I was asking God – exactly three “God is saying to you”s. Not in a tell-the-future kind of way, but in a Job-like “trust-me-I-know-what-I’m-doing-and-be-patient” way. I don’t even remember what I was asking God at the time, I just remember my amazement that God knew exactly what it was, and sent someone to tell me that He was listening.

8. ScottL on 29 Dec 2008 at 8:43 am #

   (I had shared this in response to Nathan’s comment on part 3)

   No doubt people have used prophecy in wrong ways, whether from a sincere and pure heart or from a destructive heart. I’ve probably seen both. Yet, no doubt every gift of God has been abused, as I am sure we are aware and have witnessed as well. There are those with an evangelistic gift and able draw other’s to themselves, but they exploit it for fame rather than for Christ. There are those that have very keen minds and have abused a teaching role they have in the local church. And we could go on and on with such examples. But we know the misuse and abuse of a gift does not negate the reality of such existing, and I am sure we all realize this. I just encourage us to consider this in the midst of seeing abuse and misuse of any gift.

   I personally don’t have a strong prophetic gift, but I have many friends who do. What we must realize is that some have a greater measure of the prophetic gift than others, as some teachers have a greater measure of a teaching gift than others with a teaching gift.

   No doubt many claim prophetic gifts but are somewhat vague in their proclamations, while some speak very detailed and specific prophecies. This is where I think we must distinguish between some having a greater measure with the gift than others. Though I don’t specifically have a prophetic gift, I have sensed certain things from God at times and have prophesied those, but prophets will sense much more frequently and most likely see and hear more details than someone like myself. But my teaching gift is possibly relied upon more than the others that are prophetically gifted. I think it is ok and a blessing of the different giftings and different measures of gifts.

   Also, do remember that prophecies can, many times, take quite a while to see their fulfillment. God spoke to Abraham that he would have a son, and 25 years later the son came. Some of the prophets spoke many things that took centuries for their fulfillment to come, especially when we consider Christ and the final summation of things at His return. So just because something doesn’t happen within a month, a year, or even 30 years, that does not negate the true word of God. We know the Scripture – that God’s word will not return void, but will accomplish that which is was sent out for (Isaiah 55:10-11). Of course, there are still things uttered that are not truly prophetic words from God, or so vague that we don’t know what was meant. This is all part of growing in the gift of prophecy for the whole body of Christ, and this is why we have prophets to help equip the saints (Eph 4:11-13). But still, even when someone speaks vague things or even misses it and utters something off-base, this does not necessarily warrant that we label them as ‘false prophets’.

   I think a false prophet is one speaking as if they were from God, but the things they utter are evil and deceptive. I have seen this before, and you can sense it with a discerning spirit, and can see the fruit in their life – it is all wrong, evil, and twisted. But most who prophesy something that might not have been from God are actually sincere people who are truly part of the body of Christ but are learning to hear from God, move forward in God, and see the gift developed in them. They are just learning, and it is not always immediate. With these, we need grace and church leadership to help bring the saints forward in something that can be used so beautifully and powerfully for building up the body of Christ and see people’s lives changed.

   I only re-share these words to encourage us to not abandon such a gift or think it is not important. We are to ‘earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that we may prophesy’ (1 Cor 14:1) and we are to ‘not despise prophecies’ (1 Thess 5:20), all the while remembering that we are to glorify Him and edify the body.

9. Robert Jimenez on 29 Dec 2008 at 10:51 am #

   Jeff, I have said that several times in this forum but no one seems to listen.

   Lisa, “it gets confused with word of wisdom or knowledge” no it does not, they are very similar. Prophecy in the NT in regards to the gift has little to do with fortune telling as Jeff said, or foretelling. It has to do with bringing encouragement, building up, the body of Christ. Why we continue to associate the gift of prophecy with prophets is beyond my comprehension. I have seen this gift used properly and let me tell you that it is very effective. Yes I have also seen it abused but that is no reason to abandon it all together.

   Michael, yet again another weak reason not to be a charismatic. For every negative post one gives, I have just as many positive ones to give. We can go on forever along this line of presentation. I not even arguing that misuse does not occur, or misunderstanding. But to abandon what is in IMHO biblical and Spirit given just seems wrong to me. Instead of abandoning, we should seek a better of understanding of what, how, why they are given.

   Is this how we approach all other subjects? When we fail to properly understand or point to a misuse we just abandon what the scriptures teach? What purpose does the teaching on spiritual gifts serve us? Why even have it in the bible?

10. minnowspeaks on 29 Dec 2008 at 1:18 pm #

    Some truly insightful comments here (# 3, # 4, #7, #8, #9) WOW. Abuse of God’s written word does not cause us to reject the Bible why would abuse of His prophetic word cause us to reject that gift. We have no indication from the Bible that any gift will end before we see Christ return. Our rejection of tongues, prophecy, words of knowledge/wisdom because we are personally disappointed is no different then others rejecting preaching/teaching gifts because they don’t agree with or are offended by the preacher. I have seem much abuse of all the gifts (and offices) including teaching, apostolic, evangelistic, prophetic and pastoring (care). But the Bible tells us to seek after them and to not give up gathering together so as a flawed person I do my best to obey and to discern what is good and pure and right and true.

11. Nathanimal on 29 Dec 2008 at 2:12 pm #

    To be sure, this is the major leagues. The “Gift of Prophecy” in question is in the same class as the Old Testament pooh-bah clause “Thus saith the Lord.” The holy grail of God speak. The real deal.

    In my experience, this type of prophecy was an interpretation that followed a tongue monologue. This was the norm. Although, sometimes it was just a word of wisdom or something similar. But normally, it was the great “I AM” who had the platform. I think most people didn’t really understand what they were really doing. I think if the person really understood what it really means to speak on behalf of God they would probably not even attempt this. But because it was so common, people just expected it. So it was not really that big of a deal to them. Plus most folks didn’t even take it that seriously. I think this in itself should of been a red flag. If God is REALLY talking, you better take it seriously. Unfortunately, because it was so common, there was no real urgency to truly expect something to come of it. I came to this conclusion by just observing others over time. Most folks don’t even remember prophecies from the month before.

    As I evaluate the pros and cons of this caliber, the cons out-weigh the pros. I started to take the prophecy’s very seriously as I got older. And the more chaotic my life became the more I held to every prophecy that was uttered. Some prophecy was to the whole church and some were specific to me. Obviously, the more personal ones I held up with vigor. Waiting on the Lord, year and year to do what he promised eventually ended in me going through deep depression. Some of the problems could of been dealt with right away, but I wanted to wait on God to fix it. After 5-7 years, my faith, my hope, my dreams were all destroyed. I still remember coming home after work one day and crying out to God. I’m not even sure who I was anymore. I held on until I fainted under the weight of current circumstances. Then I was toast.
    I prayed that night, I told God that I didn’t know anything anymore and that I was so messed up and confused. I didn’t want to live anymore. I told him that if he doesn’t do something, anything, I was done. I just couldn’t go on.
    After that day, things started changing. God put people in my life out of nowhere. They just came out of the woodwork. Truth. This is what changed my life. God spoke truth to me through these people. He spoke reason, he made sense. No longer was I subject to someone else’s interpretation. God himself was moving in my life. He was speaking through these people. But they didn’t know it. All they did was offer bible. Yes, clear bible teaching. Things made sense. And I got my sanity back.

    So, my conclusion is not half-baked. It is level-headed and lucid. No more God-speak to weed through. His word was enough. In the bible that is.

12. Scott Ferguson on 29 Dec 2008 at 4:36 pm #

    Nathanimal: Perhaps those people were coming in and out of your life all along and you just weren’t receptive to their message. After all, people had been “prophesying” to you all along and you just sit back and waited for God to DO SOMETHING rather than looking to those around you for guidance and inspiration.

13. ScottL on 29 Dec 2008 at 5:45 pm #

    Nathanimal -

    No doubt you have been through quite a lot in considering the prophetic gift, and especially after seeing it misused and maybe even abused. Again, this is terrible and we need restoration from such harm. Still, I would guess that most were not trying to harm, they rather were sincere but quite in need of helpful and proper teaching. Yet, in spite of the horrible things you have gone through with this gift and your own torments with it, I humbly ask that you consider that we cannot found our theological beliefs upon such shifting foundations of negative experiences. Consider if Michael (author of this blog) founded his beliefs upon what he went through with his sister’s suicide and mother’s sickness. He would have abandoned God long ago.

    Our experience shapes our life, as I believe it should. My experience actually solidifies what I believe the Scriptures teach about prophecy. So I don’t want to negate experience. But in the end, we must consider our experience alongside of Scripture. The best answer to misuse of anything is not no use, but healthy use.

    I know you know these things, but I only look to humbly encourage you to not spitefully disregard such gifts from God.

    Blessings my brother.

14. Nathanimal on 29 Dec 2008 at 6:11 pm #

    @Scott Ferguson

    It was the people I was looking to for advice. I was always looking. I had no choice as the suffering forced me to seek help from others. To be clear, I was waiting on the Lord as in “Those who wait on the Lord shall renew their strength.” There was no sitting back, that would have added insult to injury. Suffering has a very sobering effect on people. Sitting back was just not an option.

    As far as the people, they were not bad people. They were very sincere. But there was no relief during those years. It was when I came to the end of myself, when there was no more strength to seek or find. I did any and everything I could, for as long as I could.

    When I realized I was done, and was preparing my farewell legacy as I had nothing left in me to carry on, God, moved very powerfully in my life. Like nothing that has ever happened before. Notice, I did not do anything. It was when I could no longer go on that God moved in my life with striking clarity.

    People were the problem all along. God himself revealed his plan, purpose and love to me all by his self. Then he put the RIGHT people in my life to help restore me. Again, these people didn’t even know what was happening. Like characters on table he moved them into position. It was uncanny how real he became to me. I’m still broken, but now I rely heavily on his strength everyday, and that’s enough for me.

15. Robert Jimenez on 29 Dec 2008 at 7:01 pm #

    Nathanimal,

    please forgive me. As a Charismatic, I guess I am just confused by your experience. When in scripture are we ever taught not to trust in God? That is not my understanding of what the scriptures have taught me. I never put my trust in any persons words said to me. They may call it prophetic, words of wisdom, or just some advise. I always trust in the Lord. And if it does not sound right I reject it. I don’t or never have based my life choices on words that may have been spoken to me. I just didn’t make much of it. I just figured if it really is the Lord then it will just come to pass and I am not going to sweat it.

    It sounds like you are the victim of misuse of scriptures by others, and your own personal misunderstanding. I had one person come to me and tell me the Lord told him to tell me such and such. When he was done he was so off base I told him that if the Lord really wants me to hear that to go back and tell God to tell me personally. I rejected what he said to me and made that very clear to that person. People can be strange and the more fundamental they are, the stranger they can be.

    Anyhow, I do hope that I am not being to strong in my words but since this is an open forum I feel compelled to respond for those silent readers that come and go.

    Your brother in Christ,
    Robert

16. ScottL on 29 Dec 2008 at 8:00 pm #

    Nathanimal -

    It is good to hear what God has done in your life to restore how you had previously been hurt.

    Blessings my brother.

17. minnowspeaks on 30 Dec 2008 at 9:43 am #

    Amen # 16!
    I currently attend a fellowship whose teaching about prophecy could probably be easily abused if people do not understand that words spoken over them (personal prophecies/words of wisdom) should be tested and that it is not the job of the individual to make something happen. Last summer I took a break from attending what I think of as building-based worship. I was fairly convinced I was not going to find God in that (or any) building. When I returned (upon my husbands request) we had a guest speaker who gave an alter call for “back sliders” among others. I felt my Spirit nudge me to go forward. I resisted at first because I didn’t think of my self as a back slider but I did go forward. While I was standing up front a woman I had never met before approached me and asked if she could give me a word. Normally I would say no because I did not know her “qualifications” but I sensed in my Spirit to say yes so I did. The word she had for me was simple and exactly true (confirmed in my spirit immediately. And, continued in my spirit as the Lord ministered to me apart from the woman). Her “interpretation of the word she was given was definately off the mark. Because I have had a lot of experience asking the Lord to confirm words both that I have been given to pass on and that have been given to me from others I knew to seek the Lord’s guidence even in hearing “the word” someone had for me. I also could discern when this woman headed off in her own direction. Sadly as others have pointed out the Church lacks proper instruction on both the giving and the recieving of words. I am sorry Nathanimal for your painful expeirences. And I am glad the Lord put health people in your life to restore you. The woman who gave me a word was trying to be faithful and made a “natural” mistake of trying to understand the word she’d been given using the context of the alter call. Nothing she said was dangerous. It was actually encouragment. But as I am writing this I am realizing I missed an opportunity to help her mature in her gift by not talking about it with her afterward and sharing my experience of it with her. Humm…may not be too late.

18. Juanda on 31 Dec 2008 at 3:27 am #

    This comment is for Nathan.
    Hi Nathan,
    I read your comment and was a little confused. You clearly paint the picture of
    how disappointed you’ve been by man communicating falsehoods or lies in the name
    of prophetic words, but then ask the same person (man) to give you an example of
    prophecy being true. I fear the answer you truly seek is based on a greater
    question you have inside. While I understand your lack of faith in man, I don’t
    quite understand the questions that seem to push you over the edge by virtue of
    man being himself. You asked that if anyone has proof that prophesy is true to
    contact you. This answer cannot truly be answered by flesh and blood, it’s a
    spiritual gift and answers confirmations rather, must be understood in the
    spirit. Please stick with me, I’ll do my best to explain myself further.

    You have to know that it’s man who is at fault if a so called prophesy didn’t
    come true… that is, if anyone is to be at fault. Also, to ask someone else to
    share with you facts or proof about the gift of prophesy existing is the wrong
    approach to take in my opinion, at least, if it’s your belief that man has
    ruined things for you about the gift in the first place. The proof you seek can
    only be found in Christ and His Word…in Eph 4:11 scripture clearly attests to
    the 5 fold ministry – Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and
    Teachers…verse 12 says, “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the
    ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ…” God brings and gifts men
    and women today with these gifts…all of them including prophecy, see He has to,
    He said they were necessary for the perfecting of us saints and for Him to be
    edified. Plus, His Word can’t lie! So if we use this pretence alone, who then
    if anyone, doesn’t have it spelled out right? Is it man or God? Well, it has
    to be man. Now the resolve for man (you and me) is found in Hebrews 11:1, “Now
    faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen…”,
    verse 3 says, “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the
    word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do
    appear.”

    See, Nathan, I am a prophetess by gifting. I refused many years from doing this
    unique work of God because of people (man)…some who were skeptics, some who
    wanted to exploit the gift…myself out of fear and ridicule and I didn’t want to
    be different, I had been different all of my life and I wanted to fit in before
    my days on earth were over…so I thought! At least, that’s what I professed for
    years. Fact is or was is that I didn’t want the gift Nathan, and never did.
    However, when I came to a place in my spiritual walk with Christ, and I honestly
    wanted with all of my heart, spirit and soul to do His will more than walk
    timidly before him in mine, I looked Him spiritually in the eye and said, “Okay!
    Whatever men say or do, whatever cost or price, whatever comes or goes I will
    say what you want me to say, do what you want me to do, go where you want me to
    go…I had decided to totally trust in His Word without challenge or compromise!
    But that was what “I” had to do. Everyone must choose to do or not do the same
    in their personal walk with Christ. I can tell you many stories of how God’s
    gift is in full affect, accurate and changing people’s lives for the building of
    God’s Kingdom, but will that really change your mind? I don’t think so, I think
    what you need is a personal encounter with God yourself dear friend. Spell
    things out to Him as you did in your comment (He already knows, but He wants you
    to know Him and His Word as truth!) Go up on the mountain top and listen awhile,
    clear your head of what you’ve seen and personally heard, or think that you know
    and know that He is God and cannot lie. Pose His Word before Him and He will
    speak to you – clearly!

    May the peace of God calm your fears and hurts dear friend. God bless you
    abundantly Nathan.

19. Kenneth on 31 Dec 2008 at 10:36 am #

    Sometimes people confuse the gift of prophecy with predicting the future. I don’t believe that is the case. What prophecy I have heard interpreted have been mostly if not all –Scripture. Isn’t that what the definition of prophecy is? It is the words of God spoken by an individual. To test it without Scripture is not a test but just speculation. If someone is predicting an event then that is out of bounds. Just like in 1988 there were 88 reasons that Christ was returning was put to the test anyone saying they are speaking prophetically and then making predictions of the future are automatically suspect in my estimation. I believe that preaching to a congregation would most aptly be the gift of prophecy in action. Even bad people who are preaching assume the office of prophet when they are behind the pulpit and despite themselves will prophesy with the sermon God wants for his people.

20. ScottL on 31 Dec 2008 at 12:11 pm #

    I am not sure we can warrant that our 30-40 minute sermons on Sundays are THE gift of prophecy. No doubt our messages can have a prophetic edge to them. But prophecies are usually much shorter. One might point to Isaiah’s or Ezekiel’s writings and say, ‘Look, a long sermon of prophecy’. But I think the ‘books’ of Isaiah and Ezekiel (and others) are more collections of prophecies over many years.

    Just some thoughts to consider.

21. Juanda on 31 Dec 2008 at 1:39 pm #

    While I think that a servant of God can be used during the service…as in the delivering of a sermon that SHOULD be coming out of the Bible, I don’t consider the act of preaching and prophesying to be one in the same (I agree with Scott). Being used as a prophetess looks like this through my eyes…previously, God has given me insight on what a person is experiencing, or has gone through and what they will encounter or a warning or admonishment or even an event or a situation that hasn’t yet occurred. These are things, insights, ideas that God has given me about something or a person that I have no way of knowing is true beforehand, and example of this was the earthquake that happened in China this past summer…I was awaken and felt the strong urge to vehemently pray for China and I knew it was about an earthquake…that’s all I was given, that’s all I knew until 2 days later when I read the newspaper! These are things I have to have faith about, faith that what I was given is in fact from the Holy Spirit and true, because I, personally don’t know these things are so, until someone says, “How did you know that?” or see them come to pass like the newspaper incident… Further, people who have received the words given me by the Holy Spirit and know they are things I, personally could not otherwise know, understands that it is God who is speaking to them, not me! Some of these people however, have attempted to us me (the gift) as a slot machine, asking, “What news do you have for me today?” I am prophetic (I have no control over the insight I receive, when or who I receive it about), I can’t turn it on or off like a faucet…prophesy is not being a psychic, though there are some who confuse the two as well. In 1 Corinthians 12:28 , “And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.” Chapter 12 defines these supernatural gifts and attests to the existence thereof. I believe the spiritual or supernatural things that God is doing in the earth today, right now, those very things that man can’t define by a scientific formula or those that have not been seen by our eyes or heard by our own ears, are signs and wonders given to us so that we, man might believe solely in Him; a God not bound by our earthly box of ideas or facts, or own intellectual or physical explanations. I guess at the end of the day, people will either believe in a supernatural God, doing supernatural things before us or quite simply, they won’t!

22. EricW on 31 Dec 2008 at 2:04 pm #

    ScottL on 31 Dec 2008 at 12:11 pm # I am not sure we can warrant that our 30-40 minute sermons on Sundays are THE gift of prophecy.

    I agree. The “gift” of “prophecy” in I Corinthians 12:10 is a given-by-the-Spirit-as-It-wills charism, a manifestation of the Spirit, an inspired utterance. To equate it with a 40-minute sermon by the pastor, the content of which was the result of the previous week’s labor in study and prayer, is like comparing the spontaneous desire to say “I love you” to one’s beloved with the recitation of a term paper on the meaning of the word “love.” That doesn’t negate the fact that during the middle of his sermon the pastor might find himself compelled or inspired to break from his planned outline and speak a prophecy perhaps related to the Scripture he’s expounding (or related to something else that is going on during the service or as the Spirit enlightens him), but the delivery of the sermon itself is not, IMO, the gift or the exhibition of the gift of prophecy.

23. Chris E on 04 Jan 2009 at 2:18 pm #

    It seems to me that there are a couple of issues being conflated here.

    I think that what Michael and Nathan are saying is simply that the Charisms don’t seem to operate in the way that the vast majority of Charismatics/Pentecostals seem to describe them.

    Having been in Pentecostal churches for most of my life I would tend to go along with that sort of reasoning. Simply put:

    - I don’t believe that the ‘private prayer language’ approach to tongues is adequately supported by Scripture, and believe that the research of people like William Samarin cast severe doubt as to whether most Charismatics actually ’speak in tongues’ in any miraculous sense.

    - Prophecy may well be words of encouragement rather than foretelling – however, it would seem from the examples given in Acts that it is intended to speak into a particular situation. The distance between this and the normal jejune ‘God loves you’ type ‘prophecy’ delivered in vaguely KJV language is pretty vast.

    - The various ‘healing ministries’ seem to be run by the naive, or the out and out malicious huckster types.

    - ‘Signs and wonders’ ministries are the snake handling equivalent in charismatic circles, they attract the guillible and hungry in equal numbers. They do untold damage to people’s perceptions of God, and lead to people becoming spiritual thrillseekers.

    To summarise, God is sovereign and can do what he wants. I believe in the miraculous, and I believe that the Gifts of the Spirit are in operation today. I do believe that they are far far rarer than most Charismatics make out.

24. Nathanimal on 04 Jan 2009 at 5:41 pm #

    @Chris E

    Best, most succinct explanation I’ve ever read—hands down. Well put, Chris. Couldn’t have said it better if I tried.

25. Juanda on 04 Jan 2009 at 5:47 pm #

    If this is the case, I think this is a sad state of affairs we find ourselves in. Christ and the Disciples were doing these things often; signs and wonders became the standard expectation of the day. Healing and delivering, casting out devils and restoring people became the norm…the norm of expectancy as well as action….thus, the crowds and acclaim of Jesus and those seeking after Him.

    If signs and wonders are a rare occasion now, then why is this so? Jesus said that in His name we could cast out devils and that people would be delivered. Is this not happening on a scale as in the Bible days because Christ is running out of steam or because of sin? Is it because the Word of God has changed or is changing or should we be changed? Was all that just for that time, and none or very few “signs and wonders” leftover for this time, our time? The common denominator here is MAN and GOD.

    Why isn’t healing going forth as in the days of the Bible? Why aren’t people being converted and transformed like they were in the days Jesus walked the earth? Why does it seem like an idea that is too lofty for us today or that its only for the weak minded, those easily swayed or persuaded, or those chasing after pretty lights…ya know, those people seeking a new thrill when the Bible records that it’s simply God’s will for people to encounter a dynamic miracle of mind blowing proportions, that’s a supernatural explosion of events, that can’t be explained by the norms of scientific measures, but only are explained by the presence of His glory. He wants to populate the void spaces in people’s doubtful minds…and here we are still doubtful that he will…or does… wow…

26. Chris E on 04 Jan 2009 at 5:58 pm #

    If signs and wonders are a rare occasion now, then why is this so?

    I have no idea – neither do I claim to know the mind of God on such things. I would tentatively suggest that they seem to historically be linked to mass revivals. So perhaps God chooses to work in those ways at certain times which are appropriate to him and the normative state is that we are supposed to exercise faith in the absence of signs and wonders. Miracles will remain relatively rare – otherwise we would call them “Tuesday”.

    ya know, those people seeking a new thrill when the Bible records that it’s simply God’s will for people to encounter a dynamic miracle of mind blowing proportions,

    Yes, and that dynamic miracle of mind blowing proportions is called .. The Cross and Repentance. I see no reason to suggest from the Bible that it is God’s will that people encounter other miracles on a daily/regular basis.

    Of course, you are welcome to to tell me why this should be so – or even better, point me to a particular group of people who regularly experience well attested to miracles.

27. Lisa Robinson on 04 Jan 2009 at 6:26 pm #

    Juanda,

    You seem very sincere in your desire to grab hold of all God has. I applaud that. In that it does appear that you have taken hold of some teaching that exalts the miraculous and supernatural occurences and equates that with a prescription for how our life in Christ should be. But there is a problem when we do not consider the context for which these things occurred.

    Signs and wonders were performed by the apostles to authenticate the gospel message (Acts 2:43) They are not meant to me normative today as there are no apostles today. Apostles had a specific purpose to bear the testimony of Christ. I think it is very important to note that Acts describes what happened as the church was being birthed and is not necessarily prescriptive for us today. That is not to say that God cannot do what he wants but I think we have to mindful of the purpose for which these events occurred.

    In terms of what is normative for us, we have to look at the letters that were being written to the churches and individuals, which were the inspired (God-breathed) communication. There is nowhere that says that it is God’s will for people to encounter a dynamic miracle of mind blowing proportions. That may make for good preaching but is hardly supported by Scripture. What I see communicated in the Bible is for us to offer ourselves as living sacrifices (Rom 12:1), for us to grow in grace and true knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 3:18), for us to live in community with each other demonstrating a love for one another that would dumbfound the world (oh gosh…too many to cite), growing up in Him as each one does their part (Eph 2:15-16). Nothing, I think, synthesizes God’s will for his church than what Paul tells the Colossians:

    “We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Him”.

    God’s will is to point people to Christ. The mind blowing proportions is how we do that together by lifting up Christ, not gifts or miracles. That is not to say that He will not use the miraculous to get someone’s attention. But the goal is for people to know Christ. That is what the signs, wonders and miraculous gifts were about in the book of Acts, to point people to Christ.

    Oh and btw, I used to follow that same teaching too

28. Lisa Robinson on 04 Jan 2009 at 6:34 pm #

    Chris, yeah the Cross and Repentance…that’s what it is about. I think too that the passage in John 14:12 is misconstrued to mean the greater works as more miracles. Having spent many years in Charismatic circles, I can’t tell you how many times I would hear that verse touted as such and the need for more signs and wonder. But considering the context, Jesus was not talking about miracles he was talking about the Cross and Repentance.

29. juanda on 04 Jan 2009 at 6:40 pm #

    I profess that the daily miracle we all exhibit is the rising of the new sun or the moon surrounded by the stars in heaven. I profess that the daily sign or wonder is exhibited through the minds and hearts of every new converts. I profess that the physical sigs and wonders, those that profess the blind seeing, the deaf, hearing the demon possessed soul being delivered should be happening daily as well. Because you can’t see them happening daily in your neighborhood or in your circle does not negate the fact that somewhere today, all day, God is moving amoung his people. Whether that is in your state, mine or in another country altogether. TODAY he has shown Himself mighty by a sign or a wonder.

30. Lisa Robinson on 04 Jan 2009 at 7:06 pm #

    Personally, I think the greatest sign and wonder is that God in His holiness would take people who are His natural enemies, cause their hearts to turn towards Him and trust in the completed work conducted on the cross by God made flesh (in itself a miracle), indwell them with the Holy Spirit to ensure a continued walk with Him, grant them promises of participation in His kingdom, give them enablements to contribute to the work of His kingdom and have ready a place for them to spend all eternity with Him. That He provides such grace to a people who were once His enemies. Wow, that’s pretty spectacular to me.

31. roger e. olson on 04 Jan 2009 at 10:06 pm #

    Amen Lisa

32. ScottL on 08 Jan 2009 at 3:54 pm #

    Lisa -

    How does Acts 2:43 teach this that you stated – Signs and wonders were performed by the apostles to authenticate the gospel message?

    I think it is a ‘leap’ to make this argument from this Scripture. If signs and wonders were done only by the first apostles, why would Paul teach that healings and miracles and tongues (supposedly the ’sign’ gifts) were also available to the Corinthians (1 Cor 12:1-11)?

33. Marv on 16 Jan 2009 at 4:17 pm #

    Replying to this post (pt 4) and also pt 3.

    You are being generous when you call the Biblical case for cessationism weak. And you are being frank and honest with your explanation of why you are not a charismatic. What you describe is the MAIN reason, in my observation, why people do not adhere to continuationism. The theologizing is ex post facto (largely).

    I think there are a number of things going on that could be commented on:

    1. It appears that things just aren’t the way you imagined they would be. This is the “It just doesn’t work that way” argument. I’m talking about the idea of individuals with “the gift of healing” and “prophets” who want you to believe what they say so they give you an authenicating sign. It is kind of like marriage, or maybe better, being a parent: the way it really works turns out to be very different from the way I had it figured out ahead of time.

    2. This is related to one common mode of argument against present day gifts, healing for example. The argument says, “in the Bible healings were instantaneous, complete, irreversable, etc., and what I SEE is very different from this.” Well, if I believe in healing as a gift for today, it is because of the Scriptures. So if I see someone or some group believing what the Bible has to say and having SOME success, I say they are probably onto something. So what if they can’t show me NT quality phenomena? Okay, they’re not getting it perfectly right. That’s pretty much what we see all the time with teaching, preaching, evangelism, sanctification, theologizing, you name it. You know anyone doing any of those things at a NT quality level?

    And how is it that cessationsists can tell you how it has to be? “You’re a cessationist and you’re telling me how to exercise a gift?” Kind of like: “You’re not even married, and you’re telling me how marriage works.” OR “You have no children and you’re telling me how to be a parent.” I say get in the trenches and help us figure it all out.

    3. There is a learning curve, believe it or not, with the exercise of gifts such as prophecy and healing. People don’t do it well before they do it poorly. And you see a lot of people doing it poorly. You definitely see a lot of people who are not doing it at all, really, but probably think they are.

    4. The historical church has pretty much forgotten HOW to do these things. The Bible does not give detailed instructions of how to give a prophecy, for example. What does it feel like? How do you know when it is God and not yourself? How sure do you have to be before you speak? This is the kind of thing we have to go through in other domains while we learn. It helps to have an experienced practitioner to guide you, but there is a historical discontinuity. The church is still working on getting it right.

    In the 20th Century the Pentecostal/Charismatic stream took the charismata seriously, but rather muffed a number of things theologically (IMHO). The Fundamentalist/Evangelical group helped preserve Bibiology in particular, but were allergic to the charismata. That’s okay, individuals and groups with a calling are not responsible for balance–within themselves–only for faithfully fulfilling their calling. The balance comes in the WHOLE Body. So the hope is that now heirs of both streams can relearn how to exercise these gifts and understand them correctly in theological terms. I suggest this approach rather than taking refuge in cessationism, strong or weak.

34. John C.T. on 16 Jan 2009 at 4:49 pm #

    Some good points Marv. I would also add that we know very little of what “quality” of gifts were expereinced in the NT church. Maybe theirs was the same as ours, with varying levels of success. In the Scripture we only get the reports of the more instant or at least quick healings. Which makes sense since the more spectacular and unusual ones are a more direct evidence of God’s hand at work.

35. Chris E on 16 Jan 2009 at 5:43 pm #

    And how is it that cessationsists can tell you how it has to be? “You’re a cessationist and you’re telling me how to exercise a gift?” Kind of like: “You’re not even married, and you’re telling me how marriage works.”

    Largely because it doesn’t work the way that even charismatics describe it.

    I’m a continualist – I believe that I’ve seen supernatural things occur – and I firmly believe that the vast majority of the charismatic church is faking it.

    Furthermore. I don’t think the Charismatic movement has any integrity whatsoever – because any criticism is met with “Touch not the Lord’s annointed” – and they hardly ever criticise their own.

36. Robert Jimenez on 16 Jan 2009 at 6:04 pm #

    Chris,

    Seriously, this is such an unfounded, and untruthful statement “Furthermore. I don’t think the Charismatic movement has any integrity whatsoever”.

    Are we on the same planet? How can you give such a blanket statement without citing any references? I guess in your world people like J.P. Moreland, Wayne Grudem, Gordon Fee, Larry Hart, Jack Hayford, John Holland, and many, many more have no integrity?

    I don’t know what circles you run in, but I have seen plenty of rightful criticism given when needed. And I know plenty of Pentecostals and Charismatics with lots of integrity (Omar Lopez, Larry Neville, Donna Neville, Carl Friedrich, Nick Norelli just to name a few).

    Robert

37. John C.T. on 16 Jan 2009 at 6:36 pm #

    Re Comments 27 & 32: Following up on Scott’s comment, the Acts citation does not specifiy what the signs or wonders were and therefore, obviously, does not equate them with the various gifts spoken of in Corinthians and elsewhere. They were, evidently, astounding adn so some things that also occur as gifts might also have occurred as sign. Nevertheless, the nature or kind of sign and wonder is not specifieied and are not connected to gifts for the body.

    regards,

38. Chris E on 16 Jan 2009 at 7:12 pm #

    Are we on the same planet? How can you give such a blanket statement without citing any references? I guess in your world people like J.P. Moreland, Wayne Grudem, Gordon Fee, Larry Hart, Jack Hayford, John Holland, and many, many more have no integrity?

    Please read what I said; the movement has no integrity. Simply because it hasn’t really progressed out of the niche in which it developed – and still retains all the faultlines of the original movement.

    It’s apposite that you should mention JP Moreland and Wayne Grudem, whose books are more likely to be found on the shelf of self declared evangelicals. Meanwhile, the intellectual diet of the average church goer in movements like Foursquare Gospel, consists of something rather more prosperity and works orientated.

    Meanwhile, the mind of the charismatic movement presents it’s own scandal an order of magnitude worse than that described by Mark Noll. The efforts of a few in the charismatic movement to develop an intellectual life have foundered as is to be expected in a movement primarily based around experience.

    Discernment is another thing that has largely floundered due to a lack of theological education and a concentration on experience. Simply speaking, most charismatic discernment ministries simply do not have the reach of those they are critiquing, and on the few occasions where they make an impact an inevitable cry of “Touch not the Lord’s annointed” is heard.

    How is it that a major Charismatic affiliated evangelist/healer can for years teach strange doctrines (Adam flew to the moon, Eve originally gave birth out of her side, each of the trinity has a body soul and spirit), and never face censure from the vast majority of Charismatic Church Groupings. Come ‘crusade time’ the stadiums will be packed out with AoG, Elim, Foursquare, etc church goers come to see the latest sensation from TBN.

    Large parts of the charismatic church have gone full circle and are back where the Catholic Church was before the reformation. Signs and visions are sought out, God is seen primarily as someone who has to be appeased, and who can be manipulated into giving you what you really want. Meanwhile, our Crucified Saviour is left behind.

39. Marv on 19 Jan 2009 at 4:16 pm #

    Chris E #35, #38

    >>And how is it that cessationists can tell you how it has to be? “You’re a cessationist and you’re telling me how to exercise a gift?” Kind of like: “You’re not even married, and you’re telling me how marriage works.”

    >Largely because it doesn’t work the way that even charismatics describe it.

    >I’m a continualist – I believe that I’ve seen supernatural things occur – and I firmly believe that the vast majority of the charismatic church is faking it.

    >Furthermore. I don’t think the Charismatic movement has any integrity whatsoever – because any criticism is met with “Touch not the Lord’s annointed” – and they hardly ever criticise their own.

    Yes, Chris E, I largely AGREE with you. Though I don’t think I would make a blanket statement like the Charismatic movement has no integrity.

    However, I am not a Charismatic, just a continuationist. If you think the Pentecostals and Charismatics have gotten it largely wrong, COME AND HELP…

    A former (continuationist) pastor once urged (at least on the subject of demonology) to trust the “uptight evangelicals” rather than the “loose-cannon Charismatics” (probably calculated be a bit provocative).

    I think it is a serious problem that the people whose theology I otherwise value and respect, in regard to the gifts, have taken refuge in various cessationism arguments, I think, illegitimately… My contention is that Biblically and theologically the cessation arguments are just spurious. This is why, over and over again, behind these is an argument from experience, or from history, which is ultimately an experiential argument. So rather than taking the Biblical teacing as a starting place and showing the church how to get it right, they just say these don’t happen any longer.

    That is why I find it ironic that someone who is at least getting a little of it right, perhaps, is confronted by one who has never even gotten into the trenches in this matter.

    There are a few out there. But for a lot of people cessationism is a convenient doctrine that frees them from embarrassing associations.

40. Chris E on 20 Jan 2009 at 7:15 am #

    Hi Marv -

    Unlike some commentators here I’ve actually been in Charismatic churches. In fact, a quick guesstimate would be that I have spent around 60% of my Christian life in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches of various sorts.

    So my position is – I hope – not just based on knee jerk acceptance or knee jerk rejection. I suppose it helped in part that I have been through a broad variety of different churches, and have found godly people who I could respect in each of those very different churches. [A minor excursus of my own - the most balanced person I've met on the subject of demonology was an official exorcist with the Church of England].

    There are two fundamental problems with most charismatic churches, leadership and epistemology. The way these problems play out in practice are somewhat linked.

    Most charismatic churches and church movements have somewhat informal leadership structures that often sees people promoted into leadership who are charismatic (in the secular sense) individuals. This tends over time to reinforce an informal sense of cult of personality. It also tends to cause church splits – the next time a charismatic (small c) young leader decides that ‘God has told him to do X’ the church divides into two factions who do X and Y respectively.

    This leads into the entire subject of epistemology. Their entire basis of validating truth is at the basis of it experiential and subjective. Looking at scripture to try and find in it things that are fresh can be a good thing when done with proper controls – however it can fall into the trap of attempting to find the novel for the sake of it. Signs and wonders are often seen as a validation of someones ministries – whether they themselves are valid or not. There is an unwillingness to ask questions as that is seen as doubt. Scripture no longer interprets scripture, but the claims of a bunch of charismatic teachers are to be validated by signs and wonders which may or may not actually exist [see Peter Popoff in the 80s as an interesting example of this].

    The problem with ‘helping out’ is exactly the two issues above – it can’t be solved from above because of the leadership issue. And the issue of epistemology will always stymie efforts to solve it from below. The best solution is to join balanced continualist church groupings (Sovereign Grace as an example), and attempt to grow those.

41. Marv on 20 Jan 2009 at 11:44 am #

    Well, that is what I mean, if I know what I mean, by “helping out.”

    Balance is definitely the word. In fact…okay…I literally heard it as a “word,”
    (I think).

    One reason I don’t accept the label “Charismatic” is that it entails a
    movement, history, and groups that I do not share, and with which I
    have very significant differences…rather than a position.

    Continuationist, on the other hand, refers plainly and simply to a theological
    position.

    I’m afraid I had never heard of the Sovereign Grace group, but I have now
    googled them. Interesting.

    My refuge has been the Vineyard, which admittedly has been hit or miss,
    and where the philosophy has always been the best of both worlds. My
    thought (humbly…;->) is to help make the best of the Scripture/theology
    stream better…which makes the Spirit/gift side better too…

42. ashley on 08 Nov 2009 at 9:53 pm #

    To Nathanimal,
    I too have had the same experiences with prophecy. I had very specific things prayed to me from several unrelated people in a ministry. Some of them came true, and some of them very much did not come true. My issue was that I was leading a prayer ministry at the time. From what I know, the pastors that gave me these words did so with sincerity, and I took them with sincerity. (some I didn’t want to hear, but took it the same)

    Looking back, I cannot distinguish anything between the prophecies that came to pass and those that did not. I felt the same, they happened in the same way, I checked them all with scripture, etc.

    To be specific, the ones that were untrue, and did the most damage had to do with marriage. The words came from 3 separate people at three different times/places. All were full-time ministers. They were words I was not ready to hear, but took them and meditated on them, and I too felt they were from God. They necessitated some life changes, which at first seemed correct.

    One year later it became clear that the words were wrong. I was in a good place, and I ended up having lost the ministry I had.

    Almost ten years later, I have a husband and family, I am exactly where I believe I am supposed to be. (So this was not a word that could possibly come to pass still.)

    Some people say, maybe He told you that because he wanted you to make the decisions afterwards. But I cannot sit with the thought of God being deliberately deceptive. That does not sit with my idea of a loving Father.

    And I still love and admire those who spoke the words into my life. I truly believe they gave the words in good faith, and I believe I took them in good faith.

    The result in my life is I have been left with a mistrust of His voice. I have not left my faith, but I do keep the charismatic gifts at bay now. I have been told I have many of these gifts, but I certainly don’t want to give someone else an incorrect word!

    My conclusion, is that yes the gifts are alive and well in today’s world. And maybe they are more necessary in parts of the world. (I have seen/ heard of amazing things on the mission field.)

    But we do not have an infallible way to check a prophet’s word.

    However, God’s word, we are assured, is infallible. I know if I follow that, I will not be lead in the wrong direction. And that is where I go to receive “words” from above.

    Maybe I am a spiritual wimp. Better safe that sorry?

Trackback URI | Comments RSS

Leave a Reply

3000 characters or less or your post will disappear!

Also, be sure to read the blog rules.