Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 3): Prophecy and Healings
Having discussed some of the strengths of the continuationist/charismatic position, I would now like to explain why, at this point in my life, I am not a charismatic. I am going to put these in order, but I want to stress the tentativeness of my conclusion. In this, I am not necessarily offering what I believe to be strong arguments against continuationism, but only those arguments that are subjectively persuasive to me. I hope that these arguments genuinely express my position without the normal combative tone communicating “This is what I think everyone should be!”
1. I have never had a genuine charismatic experience.
Considering the relative weakness of any biblical defense against a strong cessationist position, I am very open, biblically and theologically, to continuationism. I used to have an emotional bias against all things charismatic, but I have not had such in years. In fact, I have come to respect and be intrigued with the position due to the scholarship and balance that I find in many contemporary charismatic leaders. However, I have never witnessed anything that I believe to be persuasive evidence that the supernatural sign gifts are normative or even active in the church today. This does not mean that I have not witnessed what I believe to be are miracles (I have seen one or two) or God’s intervention and guidance, but I have never witnessed anything that would lead me to believe that someone has, as their gift to the body of Christ, any of the particular gifts—workers of miracles, healings, prophecy, or the like—that I mentioned in my first installment in this series.
Of course I have heard people give prophecies. During my undergraduate, a little over ten years ago, we had a “prophet” come to our school (it was a third wave school) and lay their hands on everyone during the chapel service giving them personal words of prophecy. But it was hard to tell the difference in this and a session of palm reading. The words were so general, a sort of “catch-all”, that they could have been applied to anyone. “You have been through much pain lately . . . God knows.” “You are confused about a decision you are up against . . . God says, ‘go with your heart.’” “Be kind to her.” Yes, people were listening with tears running down their face, but I could not adjust my skepticism and allow for such a breach of conscious. I though—and still think today—anyone can do this.
If a person is a prophet, they much show some type of undeniable sign. Would God really expect less for the surrendering of my mind? I would say and still will say to anyone who says that they are a prophet or have the gift of prophecy, “Why should I listen to you? What evidence do you bring that you are from the Lord?” Look at the examples of those who carried the Lord’s message in the past. Look at Moses, Elijah, Peter, and Paul. The dead were raised, lame walked, and shadows healed. I have never witnessed anyone who spoke on behalf of the Lord—the definition of prophecy—and accompanied such with these type of miracles.
Why would God withhold such attesting signs? Don’t say that people are just supposed to believe if they are of the faith. That is completely irresponsible and will lead to a path of destruction, filled with bitterness and disillusionment. When Moses said that the people will not believe him when he says that he comes with a message from the Lord, he was right. Not only this, but the people were right not to believe him. God did not rebuke such a statement saying “If the people have faith—true faith—they will just believe without any evidence at all. Notice the account (my comments are in brackets):
Exodus 4:1-9
“Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say? [A great and understandable question] For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’” [That is what I would say to anyone who speaks vainly (with empty proclamation) on behalf of the Lord] 2 The LORD said to him, “What is that in your hand?” [Notice the lack of rebuke from the Lord. God does not want use to blindly believe others when they say they speak on His behalf] And he said, “A staff.” 3 Then He said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. 4 But the LORD said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand and grasp it by its tail “– so he stretched out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand– 5 “that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.” [Can anyone perform such a miracle without having access to the divine?] 6 The LORD furthermore said to him, [God give yet another sign without solicitation] “Now put your hand into your bosom.” So he put his hand into his bosom, and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous like snow. 7 Then He said, “Put your hand into your bosom again.” So he put his hand into his bosom again, and when he took it out of his bosom, behold, it was restored like the rest of his flesh. [Now we have a healing miracle that was used, not for the benefit of Moses (for God had to give him the disease first) but as an attestation to the prophetic message of Moses. This would further serve to establish Moses' prophetic gift.] 8 “If they will not believe you or heed the witness of the first sign, they may believe the witness of the last sign. [Yet a third sign, unsolicited by Moses but provided by God due to the seriousness of Moses' bold prophetic proclamation and the protection of the minds' of the people] 9 “But if they will not believe even these two signs or heed what you say, then you shall take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground; and the water which you take from the Nile will become blood on the dry ground.”
Moral of this story: If someone claims to speak on behalf of God—if someone claims to have a prophetic gift—you have every right and obligation to demand an attesting sign. As well, if you think you are a prophet—if you sincerely believe that God has called you to such a ministry—you need to tell God that you cannot do so without such a sign. If one is not granted to you, then I would be highly suspicious that you are speaking of your own imagination. I would suggest that you adjust your theology to take God’s word more seriously otherwise your supposed prophetic gift may be causing you to perpetually take the Lord’s name in vain. No small matter.
Least you think I am being overly skeptical, listen to the rebuke of the prophets in Jeremiah’s day:
“Also among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing: The committing of adultery and walking in falsehood; And they strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one has turned back from his wickedness. All of them have become to Me like Sodom, And her inhabitants like Gomorrah. 15 “Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets, ‘Behold, I am going to feed them wormwood And make them drink poisonous water, For from the prophets of Jerusalem Pollution has gone forth into all the land.’” 16 Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you. They are leading you into futility; They speak a vision of their own imagination, Not from the mouth of the LORD. 17 “They keep saying to those who despise Me, ‘The LORD has said, “You will have peace “‘; And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart, They say, ‘Calamity will not come upon you.’ 18 “But who has stood in the council of the LORD, That he should see and hear His word? Who has given heed to His word and listened?
Prophets of today: Have your really stood in the council of the Lord? Live in fear of such a question.
I have never seen a modern day prophet whose words were backed up by anything substantial. I have never heard of one. All I have seen are multiple vain (empty) proclamations. I am sorry to come across so harsh in this matter, but its seriousness is far beyond comparison. Any misapplication, misunderstanding, or misassociation can destroy people’s lives and their faith (from a human perspective). I have seen it too many times to number.
I am not saying that there are not those out there who are different—who really speak on behalf of the Lord and back it up. I am just saying that in my experience this has never happened. I am perfectly open to it, but I have never seen it. Therefore, I am a practical cessationist when it comes to prophecy.
The same can be said about the gift of healings. While I believe that God can and does heal people today, I have never, in my experience, come across someone with the spiritual gift of healing. I am beyond open to it. I call for it. I cry for it. I plead with God to send someone to my mother. But it does not happen. If a group of people pray and God heals someone, this is not evidence for continuationism. Evidence for continuationism would come if someone—some individual—has this gift. If you have this gift, please call me.
If you say, “Its not like that. God simply uses me sometimes to heal. I never know when he is going to and when he will deny such a request.” I would say that we are simply talking past each other. In my estimation, you do not have the gift of healing. You, like everyone else, simply have the ability to pray for healing, leaving the answer in the hands of God.
I will have to cut this off for now and continue next time.
God bless you all and Merry Christmas.
If you enjoyed this post, make sure you subscribe to my RSS feed!- Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 4): Excursus
- Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 8): I am a De Facto Cessationist
- Why I am Not Charismatic (Part 1)
- How to be a child of God forever?
- What is Grace?
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bethyada on 20 Dec 2008 at 5:12 pm #
Michael, I think all your comments here are in the main reasonable. But there needs to be some fleshing out of the issues.
There are false prophets yes, but that is not an argument for cessationism.
It is reasonable to expect authentication of a prophet, but this is, as you state, God’s pejorative. The demand for a sign when God has given what he will is a sin (note the Pharisees demands from Jesus). But you are correct that to demand faith (i.e. trust) when there is no reason to think the person is otherwise trustworthy may be out of place.
When you say that you have not even heard of anyone, have you read the story of Smith Wigglesworth?
I think you would find Bevere’s book Thus Saith the Lord very interesting. Though Bevere is charismatic, he speaks against a lot of false prophecy that he has seen, and discusses some of what he thinks is necessary in this arena. You probably get recommended a lot of books, but if this area interests you then I think it a useful book with much advice for caution.
C Michael Patton on 20 Dec 2008 at 5:30 pm #
I agree that this is not an argument for cessationism, but it needs to be said that I am not necessarily arguing for cessationism, properly defined.
I have heard many stories of miraculous events and happenings, but these are usually not evidence for continuationism as I have defined it.
But one thing that you have said is very important and I need to try to remember to stress this: Guilt by association is a terrible way to procede. We don’t want people doing this in Christianity in general, so we need to grant all positions such a grace. We also need to grant out minds such as well.
learning on 20 Dec 2008 at 6:17 pm #
Michael,
Good post. It’s good that you’re open to prophecy and the gifts of the Spirit. What you need to do next is go and check out Sam Storm’s church…..Bridgeway. And then after checking it out join the church. Then after joining do a new blog post telling us that you have actually come to change your position on the gifts. Wow. That would be great.
C Michael Patton on 20 Dec 2008 at 6:45 pm #
Actually, I have been going there since he came. Still not there, but Sam views are not MUCH different than mine…he just defines things differently.
bethyada on 20 Dec 2008 at 8:18 pm #
I understand the cessationists are claiming the cessation of specific supernatural workers (sign gifts), not necessarily the miraculous. So if correct we may still see healings by God. Further, the domain of providence is believed by both to be very real (I hate miracle being used for providence or even just wonder).
I think because one cannot turn a gift on a off at will does not imply cessationism though. Remember that Jesus could not do many miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief, nor could the disciples cast out the unclean spirit despite doing other mighty works when Jesus sent them out prior to pentecost. Further Paul saw that a man had faith to be healed prior to healing him.
And God worked differently in different disciples so even though Philip, Peter and Paul performed signs, God did some unusual signs through Paul (handkerchiefs) and different ones thru Peter.
One must be careful not to deny an example in the modern age just because he cannot perform miracles at will, such a man is still dependant on the Spirit’s guidance.
Further, other gifts that continuationists believe in such as prophecy are somewhat dependant on God’s revelation. Jeremiah and Ezekiel etc. spoke when God spoke to them. Modern day prophets still need God to share his word, if God does not speak in a situation it is permissible for a prophet to say, “I have no word from God.”
Again (like with miracles) we may see degrees of gifting in the same area. Agabus was known to be a particularly accurate prophet, but many others also prophesied.
Peter on 21 Dec 2008 at 12:07 am #
Chalk up your confusion to another failure of sola scriptura.
C Michael Patton on 21 Dec 2008 at 12:58 am #
Peter, thanks for the unsupported hit and run.
minnow on 21 Dec 2008 at 1:52 am #
It seems you have found a convenient way to define these terms (continuationism and cessationist) so you can have your cake and eat it to. The miracles I do hear about I can credit to God but I don’t have to think people have anything to do with it.
I think in truth our ability to see the gifts (esp. miracles and healing) in part has something to do with culture and need. Heidi Baker in Mozambique see many more miracles then we do in the US. She says the reason has a little to do with the fact that they have no plan B–no doctor to go to, no nursing home option, no pain meds. And, at least in her testimony, many of the miracles they see result in entire villages coming to faith in Christ. The very strong opposition to the gospel has a hard time discounting blind eyes seeing. I do not think it is so much a question of “we don’t need it because we have the Bible” but rather we are too intellectual, too reasoned, for our own good. Culturally we are a closed people.
I do not know why God does what He does the way He does it, why He seemingly intervenes in one situation (because the person is healed) but doesn’t in another (because the person isn’t healed)–with or without the help of “miracle workers”. And, I refuse to believe He created the whole mess just to leave us to our own devices.
What is good about your Mother’s situation? Perhaps nothing. But you have probably spent more consentrated time on her since her illness struck then you ever did prior to it–tending to her needs alone. You’ve learned what it is to be a son/caregiver. It isn’t fun. It isn’t easy. It sucks. But, you’ve learned and continue to learn and have been stretched and have found out just what you are made of in a way you may not have ever been able to without this painful experience of loving someone. One thing I admired about John McCain’s testimony about being a POW what when he said something to the effect of, “I broke. Everybody breaks. But I found out who I am.” Maybe, Michael, God is just helping you find out who you are in addition to letting you know He loves you.
I guess I got a little off track, sorry, but it seems these thread to your life do seem to run together.
C Michael Patton on 21 Dec 2008 at 2:21 am #
You are right that my life and this thread are connected. As I said, personal experience is a key factor here.
You said:
“I do not think it is so much a question of “we don’t need it because we have the Bible” but rather we are too intellectual, too reasoned, for our own good. Culturally we are a closed people.”
But personally I am not. Does God withhold from the individual for the sake of the culture? Maybe…
Again, I think that you are equating the question “Does God do miracles?” with our present and separate discussion, “Does God still give the supernatural “sign gifts” to individuals in the church today?” It is very important that we keep these distinct.
Personally, as I have said, I am more than open to this.
Speaking about this discussion in an “over seas” or a “third world” context, does not change things from the standpoint of my experience. I have been to many countries where this is supposed to be the norm and have not found it as such. I remember spending much time in India where this was supposed to be the case. I went to a healing meeting where guess who was the guest healer? Me! There was a great expectation, but most of the people were still very sick. My healing abilities did not work that day, but it was not from lack of trying.
In the end, I can hear a lot of stories about faith healers, prophets, and the like, but experience has not bent me in the direction of many.
minnow on 21 Dec 2008 at 7:54 am #
Humm…how could you be the “guest healer” when by your own proclamation you do not have the gift? (Undoubtedly a case of misunderstanding/false billing on your hosts’ part). If your criteria for an individual having “the gift” of healing is to heal everyone that needs healing all the time I would suggest that Jesus himself did not have “the gift” for He left many unhealed. It also rules out anyone I personally would point to as a person with “the gift”, so you win the argument you have set up but mostly because you have set it up to have no other outcome available. My questions run in a different line. Why are some who pray for healing more “successful” then others? Why are some with the very same disease healed when others are not? What do we learn when God’s answer is yes and what do we learn when it is no? Are we looking for discernment or just our will to be accomplished? What (besides health) should the result be when healing does occur?
minnow on 21 Dec 2008 at 8:19 am #
I just reread your comment and am struck by your question: (I just said: Culturally we are a closed people and you replied:) “But personally I am not. Does God withhold from the individual for the sake of the culture?” Are you asking if God withholds healing or the gift giving? Coming to the conclusion that the gift is no longer being given does not really help to understand why God has chosen so far to not heal your Mother when you leave open the possibility that God still miraculously heals. It does not suddenly become the lack-of-a-healer’s fault instead of God’s answer.
Personally, I think a good definition for a person with the “gift” of healing would be: one who has a significantly better success ratio than most.
From The Balcony on 21 Dec 2008 at 9:09 am #
Michael
I am like you. I have been open to continuationism for many years and have visited churches that believe this just to test what is true. I have yet to see evidence that God is doing this in our midst, at least not openly. I’ve even been to Africa and seen a bit what minnow says. Minnow says that we as a people are closed. I don’t think this is true. I, like many, am not closed to this if it were to be true. I, like many, won’t deny its possibility.
For whatever reason, I don’t see God working in this way in our people. Our culture is so open, in fact, that they believe things without testing them first. Having done that in my early 20s — believing that a “burning in my bosom” would show truth (which never happened by the way..)…..I think I understand now that it is us….we demand miracles, healings and signs of God.
I make myself read often how it broke Jesus’ heart when people around Him did not accept previous miracles as enough evidence of Him. He criticized them for being an unbelieving people because He had already done enough for them to believe. Yet, they demanded more. We always demand more…..
I think we are like these people….never satisfied with the great gifts God has given us for all time. I, personally, am working on being satisfied, and I have to say, there is great peace in this approach to scripture. 1 Tim 6:8 tells us to be satisfied if we have enough food and shelter. Why do we demand more? 1 Cor. tells us that we should already be satisfied because we are already rich in Christ. In Matthew we see that Jesus recognized people should hunger and thirst after righteousness, not more miracles and evidence to prove His existence.
Just my 2 cents worth.
ScottL on 21 Dec 2008 at 2:00 pm #
Michael -
Thanks for your honesty. I do appreciate the authenticity behind your thoughts. I am a part of a family of charismatic churches who do hold that all gifts, signs, and miralces are still available today to the body of Christ. In the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, there were many such manifestations of the working of God’s Spirit in the midst of our gatherings, but of course, those people who mainly experienced these things are now older. In the last couple of decades, we have not seen as much in our midst, especially in the few churches I have been a part of, though I have seen a handful of things. I think it sometimes has to do with the reality of there being certain ’seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord’ as it is worded in Acts 3:20. In certain times there are seasons of such, and in other times there are not. I hope you don’t see it as a cop out, but rather wisdom of someone who has been in churches that have experienced much at times and little at times, maybe even hardly anything at times.
Now, for some, they still might have not experienced such manifestations, which is your testimony. I know this might sound a little off-base, or unworthy of taking notice of, but we don’t usually see things happen in the midst of those who are generally not open to it. No doubt, we, ourselves, can be open to such, as you have said you are. But if the rest of our local church community and family is not, the likelihood of experiencing such becomes less. I know that might mean that we have to find another local body to be a part of, and I am not even saying you should leave the family you are a part of, but it is something we must consider.
I know God is sovereign, but there are things to consider to help us move forward in those things we long for. These are just things to consider in our lives.
Thanks again for sharing. I look forward to more dialogue.
Alden on 21 Dec 2008 at 4:31 pm #
Michael, as I am sure you are aware, there are more flavors of charismatics than Baskin-Robbins has ice cream. Many charismatics reject the concept of the “office” of a prophet, and would never accept anyone calling themselves one (I am one of those, having seen more than my share through the years). The gift of prophecy is usually distinguished from the OT kind of prophet, and is considered to be available to any Christian (and sometimes donkeys as well) when needed, like words of wisdom, etc. So, the classic cessationist arguments that rely on OT definitions don’t really work. Paul gives some NT guidelines on prophecy that distinguish the 2 types, such as testing prophecy, etc.
I tend to be very critical about prophecy; while many people teach about prophecy, hardly anyone teaches about testing it. That doesn’t make it invalid, it just makes people uneducated and unwise.
Lisa Robinson on 21 Dec 2008 at 8:46 pm #
So here is my question. Why would we have to ask someone who has a gift to perform that gift? If someone claims to be a prophet, the signs should are part of the package. I don’t think we should have to ask for them. Same with healing.
I will tend to agree with Michael concerning sceptism about prophecy. A prophet had a specific role for a specific purpose, which was to speak the words of God, which then became authoritative.
EricW on 22 Dec 2008 at 9:44 am #
Frank Viola has an interesting essay on why he’s neither charismatic nor cessationist:
http://frankviola.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/stripping-down-to-christ-alone-rethinking-the-gifts-of-the-spirit/
Jugulum on 22 Dec 2008 at 11:11 am #
Michael,
First, I would say the same thing. Probably. (See the end of this comment.) But I have a question for you.
Are you saying that there is a biblical “gift of healing” which equals “the ability to heal at will”? If so… Why? Does the Bible actually teach that?
I’ll repost something I wrote in part 1 of this series:
I’m curious—have you worked through this question before? Do you reject this understanding of “gifts of healings”, or do you see merit in it?
Note: If someone is frequently used by God to heal, then it might be appropriate to say that God does give that person gifts of healings. But it would be wrong to say that he “has the gift”.
SteveT on 22 Dec 2008 at 11:52 am #
Michael — I think this is a fair argument and it lines up with where I am for the most part, but I think there is one big question. You point out the signs that God gave to Moses to show (in detail) and also mentioned Elijah, Peter, and Paul. Those guys all certainly established themselves with miracles.
But let’s consider a list of prophets who did not establish themselves with miracles:
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Habakkuk
Jonah
Nathan
Joel
Obadiah
Nahum
Zechariah
Malachi
John the Baptist
All of those we have considered to have spoken the authentic word of God. Yet what sign did they offer? You even quote Jeremiah for God’s opinion of false prophets.
I am a soft cessationist as well, primarily because I have nothing that in any way approaches a charismatic experience in my life, so I agree with your overall thrust, and I certainly agree that those who claim to be prophets are certainly taking a terrible burden upon themselves – they had better be 100% sure.
I just don’t think the requirement that they be able to produce a sign is a fair argument, Biblically.
Robert Jimenez on 22 Dec 2008 at 12:06 pm #
I think the gift of the Spirit or Spirit manifestations are somewhat misunderstood. For one Paul never argues that he opposes the gifts or that they should be banned. All he is trying to do is give some guidance on how they should be practiced in a setting where believers are gathered. On the contrary he encourages the use of the gifts, and encourages us to allow the Holy Spirit to move in our presences.
For example it seems to me that gift of prophecy and the office of a prophet are misunderstood. They are not one and the same. The gift of prophecy in my humble opinion is clearly defined by Paul in 1 Cor. 14 (the following verses are quoted from the TNIV)
1. Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
Paul here begins with encouragement, that we should eagerly desire spiritual gifts. What ever tone or correction follows he is not in any way stating not to allow the gifts from functioning.
His whole presentation regarding tongues and prophecy is not to forbid the speaking of tongues, or for that matter any Spirit manifestation, but to understand their purpose. The purpose of tongues is to edify oneself, unless it is interpreted then it will edify the church. The gift of prophecy is to edify the church that is the only reason why Paul encourages the use of this gift over tongues. It’s (gift of prophecy) sole purpose is to “vs. 3 – strengthening, encouragement and comfort. ; vs.4 – edify the church “.
The misunderstanding is that the person who exercises the gift of prophecy is a prophet, and therefore should operate as the Old Testament prophets did. But clearly that is not what Paul is stating here, well at least it appears clear to me.
Again comes the encouragement from Paul “vs. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.” Which gifts should we excel in? Those that build up the church. That is why he prefers the gift of prophecy over tongues. But he is not forbidding the use of tongues.
“vs, 26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.” Again as Paul begins to summarize what he just stated he reminds us once again that everything we do should be to build up the church, he does not want us to loose site of this.
“vs. 39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.” Finally he stress in case there should be any misunderstanding, he is not forbidding the use of tongues, but everything should be on in a orderly way.
I do want to stress one last thought. In 1 Thess. 5:19-22 which I think is one of Paul’s oldest writings. He states the following: “19 Do not put out the Spirit’s fire. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject whatever is harmful.” TNIV
Clearly even with the Thessalonian the Spirit was manifesting through the gift of prophecy. He reminds them not to put out the Spirit’s fire, or as the HCSB puts it “don’t stifle the Spirit”. How would we stifle or put out the Spirit’s fire? It would appear to me that according to Paul by being in contempt with prophecies that are being said in the church. He gives us some wiggle room again in my opinion. He says in regards to the gift of prophecy, test them all. If you like what you hear, and it lines up with what you have been taught the hold on to it. If it is not good, or harmful reject it, but don’t allow the incorrect use or misuse of this gift to cause you to put out the Spirit’s fire, or to stifle it.
Anyhow, just my two cents. Michael I look forward to hearing more on your issues and reasons. I wonder if this is your strongest point, because if it is it could well very be your weakest point
C Michael Patton on 22 Dec 2008 at 4:47 pm #
Steve,
I would say that it is not only a reasonable request to require a authenticating sign, but a biblical necessity both by example and precept. I get this from Deut 13 and 18 as well as the implications of 1 Cor. 12:12.
As for all the prophets that did not give a sign, I would be careful not to make an argument from silence. Just because the Bible does not record any sign does not mean that they did not follow the prescriptions clearly laid out in the law. Remember, the Bible is theological history, not exhaustive history. We don’t have much of these prophets lives at all as they are not bibliographies.
I assume that each of these prophets were established prophets due to their inclusion in the canon and acceptance in the Jewish community. Same thing with John the Baptist.
Again, I reiterate, it is both naive and irresponsible to ever take someone at their word who claims to be a prophet. There must be some sort of sign.
If you disagree, what requirement are we left with? A deep feeling that this guy is legit?
Jugulum on 22 Dec 2008 at 6:27 pm #
Michael,
1 Cor. 12:12? Is that a typo? “For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.”
I agree… But again, with reservation.
If someone came to me with an alleged instruction or doctrinal revelation from God, I would have to ask, “Why should I believe that your message is from God?” Without a sign, what could they say? I don’t know how to respond to such a claim, other than to require authentication of the person as a prophet.
If, on the other hand, someone comes to me with a word for “upbuilding and encouragement and consolation” (1 Cor. 14:3), then it seems appropriate simply to weigh/sift/discern what is said (1 Cor. 14:29), i.e. to test it, cling to what is good, and reject what isn’t (1 Thess. 5:21-22). Even if I’m not sure whether the person was legitimately prophesying, I can still weigh their words.
But that doesn’t save vague, generic, weak modern-day “prophecy” from being named for what it is.
Michael Patton on 22 Dec 2008 at 6:50 pm #
Oops…I meant 2 for 12:12
learning on 22 Dec 2008 at 11:22 pm #
Jugulum,
Whoa, whoa, whoa ( Ho, Ho, Ho,), buddy……where did you get the idea that the gift of prophecy is ‘vague, generic, or weak ‘? From my experience prophecy is specific……especially to the one for whom the prophecy is for. It’s very specific and piercing from my experience. It is exact and revealing to the situation someone is in……a situation sometimes no one else knows about in the church. Prophecy is very encouraging to the one receiving it because it lets the person know that God knows…..that He knows a persons needs and desires and problems….that He sees and loves that person. When you receive a prophetic word it isn’t like “…..okay…..yeah…..so what?….” It’s more like ” WHOA! GOD YOU KNOW! GOD YOU ARE AWESOME! GOD YOU ARE ALIVE! “. It’s a piercing, clear, encouraging, energizing word. Now to the person who receives the prophetic message to deliver to the rest of the church it can seem like ” Okay……what is that? ” or ” Lord, what’s this all about “?
Again, lets not try to think of TBN when thinking of the gifts. And another thing, the gift of prophecy is not for doctrinal revelation. That’s what the bible is for. All the doctrinal revelation we need is in the bible.
Jugulum on 23 Dec 2008 at 12:02 pm #
learning,
I actually wasn’t saying that all modern-day prophecy is weak, generic, & vague. I was talking about this paragraph from Michael’s post:
There may be “better” prophecy out there. I suspect there is, though I don’t know for sure. But the vague stuff is till vague.
ScottL on 24 Dec 2008 at 9:18 am #
Michael, in comment #20, you stated: ‘I would say that it is not only a reasonable request to require a authenticating sign, but a biblical necessity both by example and precept. I get this from Deut 13 and 18 as well as the implications of 2 Cor 12:12.’
In Deut 13, I assume you are referring to vs.1-5. It seems vs1-3 give the specific context to consider: ‘If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.’
It seems this is all about things to consider for those who have signs/wonders following them, but speak a false message. This is not a particular prescription for a prophet, per se, but more a warning on not to get entangled in the awe of a sign or wonder when the person is actually declaring a false message.
In regards to Deut 18, I believe you are referring specifically to vs.15-22. It seems vs20-22 might give the even more specified context you are referring to: But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’— [answer to the question posed] when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
These words seem more about seeing the prophecy spoken coming to pass rather than prescribing that a prophet must have attesting miracles and signs. No doubt prophets, Biblically and today, have had such things follow, but I don’t think Deut 13 or 18 gives a law-oriented prescription that a prophet has to perform such. But, also, as someone else commented, I think we need to distinguish between having the gift of prophecy and functioning in the role of prophet in the Eph 4:11 sense. But, of course, that is another discussion.
Finally, in regards to 2 Cor 12:12, I believe this is a somewhat misunderstood passage by many, at least in my humble view. First off, consider that the passage is about Paul’s apostolic gift, rather than prophetic call. But you could equate it somewhat with prophets since they both, from the Biblical standpoint, brought forth the authoritative words of God.
The passage says: ‘The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.’
Cessationists claim this verse is proof that signs and wonders were only performed through apostles. And, as with other passages, it is claimed that, because apostles no longer exist, signs and wonders no longer exist. But, what we must first do is distinguish between the use of the word ‘signs’ in this passage, for it is used in TWO different manners.
The first time the word signs is used does not refer to miraculous signs. Rather, it refers to ‘signs of a true apostle’. Paul uses this phrase to contrast his work as a true apostle with the selfish ways of the ‘super-apostles’ (see 2 Corinthians 12:11). Paul had just spent chapters 10-11 defending his apostolic calling by telling of all the things he has been through for the Corinthians. And this is the manner in which the word ‘signs’ is used firstly. He came with the signs of a true apostle – having a servant heart for them, even willing to suffer for them. Paul, then, goes on to say that he was also used in signs, wonders and mighty works. The second use of the word is in reference to miraculous signs.
Therefore, this verse does not teach that signs, wonders and miraculous works are only limited to apostles [or even prophets]. And as with the other Scriptures above, we cannot use this verse to build the case that signs and wonders no longer exist, and therefore, apostles no longer exist. In 2 Corinthians 12:12, the ‘true signs of an apostle’ are a servant heart for the people with whom they work. And miraculous signs are not only limited to apostles (first century or present century). They are available to all of those indwelt and empowered by the Spirit – the whole body of Christ.
Just some things to consider about the 3 passages you have referred to in your posts and comments. Thanks again.
Nathanimal on 28 Dec 2008 at 12:35 am #
I’ve held back from posting my comments thus far. But Michael has provoked me to say something. I will try to focus on the current context of this post. At this point in the series, Michael is focused on healing and prophecy, so I will focus on prophecy for now.
My experience with the gift of prophecy, healing and tongues is 20 years in the making. Grew up around the gifts. Prophecy was a dime a dozen. It was everywhere.
Now, as I look back like a PI and investigate my experiences, I consider all the prophecies that are burned into my head. And, lo and behold, not one came true. Really? Yes, really. And its not like I didn’t like prophecy, for many years I hoped against hope that it was really God speaking through these folks. But, if evidence means anything, these folks were not prophesying on behalf of God. They couldn’t have been. Most of the prophecies were tethered to real events or something coming soon. Later on the prophecies became very generic and more praise than anything. I imagine the people could have just as well given the praise without the prophecy, since that was all that really happened.
So, what to make of this? I am convinced that prophecy is absolutely not the norm. I’ve got at least 100 people I can think of right now who gave prophecies that never happened. Some of these people were good brothers and sisters in the faith, some were suspect of even being born-again.
If there is any hard evidence that prophecy is normative, or even somewhat happening, I would say it ain’t happening.
So, did some other church get it right? Just not the 10-15 different church’s I attended growing up and into adulthood?
There is so much I struggled through to get to this point. Sometimes I wonder why God let me go through all this. Was it pointless? Was there any meaning? Could God use those people? Yes, and he probably did use them despite their ignorance. But then again, I believe God works through everything that happens, even our sin. But that is for another time.
Now, if you think I said this out of disgust or that I have some bias because someone wronged me, then you are mistaken. I held to the gift of prophecy as long as the Lord allowed me to. Then I was left with no other choice but to abandon this gift. I have seen so many people’s lives poisoned with false hope, including mine, because we wanted to trust God. But God didn’t come through. At least that is what I could have believed. No, I knew God was good, but something was wrong. The people. They were wrong. I believe they were sincere, but they were still sincerely wrong. God help them. The gift of prophecy wrecked my life many times with false hopes and dreams. God can do whatever he wants, he is awesome. People unforntunetly suck. And we have to be able to use our head and discern any and everything. Else, bad stuff will happen. As if it doesn’t happen enough already. No need to try and complicate our lives with lies.
If you have the gift of prophecy and it is working for you and you have evidence to back it up, please contact me. I would love to be proven wrong. I am serious as a heart attack. I’d rather prophecy be happening rather than not. But please, I can’t tolerate false prophecies since they are dangerously toxic to our lives. By the way, God is still awesome and he is my closest friend and he has become a father to me. I trust him with all my soul and mind. He has proven to me that I can always trust him. But he has also allowed me to see our depravity and our tendency to fall into error.
I’m done. I went overboard, it think. I love everyone of brothers and sisters in Christ. Lord, sanctify us in truth, your word is truth.
Jason C on 28 Dec 2008 at 3:49 am #
I like you.
Yes, whenever anyone offers a prophecy it should be tested measured and evaluated before being acted on. Scripture itself tells us that no one sets out to build a tower without first counting the cost to make sure they can finish.
Will it quench the Spirit? Not a chance. Above all things God understands the vanity and frailty of human beings. If we want to be certain that we are actually hearing from him before making a decision then he can only approve of that.
Test everything, hold fast to that which is good.
Test the spirits, whichever confesses Christ is of God, else it is the spirit of anti-Christ.
Too much enthusiasm, not enough discernment. That would sum up every criticism I have of the modern Church.
ScottL on 28 Dec 2008 at 11:52 am #
Nathanimal -
No doubt people have used prophecy in wrong ways, whether from a sincere and pure heart or from a destructive heart. I’ve probably seen both. Yet, no doubt every gift of God has been abused, as I am sure you are aware and have witnessed as well. There are those with an evangelistic gift to draw other’s to themselves, but they exploit it for fame rather than for Christ. There are those that have very keen minds and have abused a teaching role they have in the local church. And we could go on and on with such examples. But we know the misuse and abuse of a gift does not negate the reality of such existing, and I am sure you realize this. I just encourage you to remember such.
I personally don’t have a strong prophetic gift, but I have many friends who do. What we must realize is that some have a greater measure of the prophetic gift than others, as some teachers have a greater measure of a teaching gift than others with a teaching gift.
No doubt many claim prophetic gifts but are somewhat vague in their proclamations, while some speak very detailed and specific prophecies. This is where I think we must distinguish between some having a greater measure with the gift than others. Though I don’t specifically have a prophetic gift, I have sensed certain things from God at times and have prophesied those, but prophets will sense much more frequently and most likely see and hear more details than someone like myself. But my teaching gift is possibly relied upon more than the others that are prophetically gifted. I think it is ok and a blessing of the different giftings and different measures of gifts.
Also, do remember that prophecies can, many times, take quite a while to see their fulfillment. God spoke to Abraham that he would have a son, and 25 years later the son came. Some of the prophets spoke many things that took centuries for their fulfillment to come, especially when we consider Christ and the final summation of things at His return. So just because something doesn’t happen within a month, a year, or even 30 years, that does not negate the true word of God. We know the Scripture – that God’s word will not return void, but will accomplish that which is was sent out for. Of course, there are still things uttered that are not truly prophetic words from God, or so vague that we don’t know what was meant. This is all part of growing in the gift of prophecy for the whole body of Christ, and this is why we have prophets to help equip the saints (Eph 4:11-13). But still, even when someone speaks vague things or even misses it and utters something off-base, this does not necessarily warrant that we label them as ‘false prophets’. I think a false prophet is one speaking as if they were from God, but the things they utter are evil and deceptive. I have seen this before, and you can sense it with a discerning spirit, and can see the fruit in their life – it is all wrong, evil, and twisted. But most who prophesy something that might not have been from God are actually sincere people who are truly part of the body of Christ but are learning to hear from God, move forward in God, and see the gift developed in them. They are just learning, and it is not always immediate. With these, we need grace and church leadership to help bring the saints forward in something that can be used so beautifully and powerfully for building up the body of Christ and see people’s lives changed.
I hope you are encouraged to not abandon such a gift.
EricW on 28 Dec 2008 at 12:43 pm #
Nathaniel:
Good post.
But not even Ezekiel got all his prophecies totally right, though. Compare Ezekiel 26:7-14 (esp. verse 12) with Ezekiel 29:17-20 (esp. verses 18b-19).
And … Paul says the gift of prophecy is for “edification, consolation and exhortation,” not necessarily or primarily for foretelling things to come or things to happen. Without having read the literature on the subject, I suspect there is a difference between the NT gift and action of prophecy/prophesying, and the utterances of someone who is a prophet, whether OT or NT (e.g., Agabus in Acts 11:27-28 and 21:10-11).
Note that Philip’s daughters in Acts 21:9 are said to be ones who prophesy (it’s a present active participle). Unlike Agabus, they are not described with the noun “prophet,” so translations like the NASB which read “Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses” obscure the original Greek* and possibly wrongly suggest or imply or lead the reader to think that Philip’s daughters’ gifting/actions should be equated with who and what Agabus was and did as a “prophet.”
* The Greek is literally “to-this-one but/and/now there-were daughters four virgins prophesying.” A possibly better, but clumsy, translation might be “Now he had four virgin daughters who regularly exercised the gift of prophesying.”
Jason C on 28 Dec 2008 at 12:54 pm #
I wouldn’t be so quick to judge Ezekiel on that Eric. Looking at the surrounding verses it’s clear God is talking about bringing many nations against Tyre (contrast he and they). Nebbie wasn’t the one to plunder Tyre, but the other nations certainly did. I think it was Alexander who did the final smashing.
EricW on 28 Dec 2008 at 1:15 pm #
Jason C:
Ezekiel has Adonai YHWH promising the spoils of Tyre to Nebbie. But N gets nothing for his labor, contrary to E’s “Thus says Adonai YHWH….” So E gives another “thus says Adonai YHWH ” three chapters later in which Adonai YHWH acknowledges that N got nada for his efforts against Tyre (except for making a bunch of heads bald and shoulders bare), and promises him the spoils of Egypt in return.
Or so I read the text.
Jason C on 28 Dec 2008 at 2:08 pm #
In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, because Tyre said concerning Jerusalem, ‘Aha, the gate of the peoples is broken; it has swung open to me. I shall be replenished, now that she is laid waste,’ therefore thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will bring up many nations against you, as the sea brings up its waves. They shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers, and I will scrape her soil from her and make her a bare rock. She shall be in the midst of the sea a place for the spreading of nets, for I have spoken, declares the Lord God. And she shall become plunder for the nations, and her daughters on the mainland shall be killed by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord.
“For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a host of many soldiers. He will kill with the sword your daughters on the mainland. He will set up a siege wall against you and throw up a mound against you, and raise a roof of shields against you. He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. His horses will be so many that their dust will cover you. Your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen and wagons and chariots, when he enters your gates as men enter a city that has been breached. With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets. He will kill your people with the sword, and your mighty pillars will fall to the ground.
They will plunder your riches and loot your merchandise. They will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses. Your stones and timber and soil they will cast into the midst of the waters. And I will stop the music of your songs, and the sound of your lyres shall be heard no more. I will make you a bare rock. You shall be a place for the spreading of nets. You shall never be rebuilt, for I am the Lord; I have spoken, declares the Lord God.
Nebbie didn’t make Tyre a bare rock either. Alexander did that too, tearing down the shore city in order to build his causeway.
I really see it as a prophecy of two (at least) conquerors.
EricW on 28 Dec 2008 at 2:46 pm #
Jason:
As worded/recorded by Ezekiel, it’s IMO a failed prophecy, and none of the explanations I’ve read re: the problem (and some commentators don’t even address it) have been satisfactory.
Lisa Robinson on 28 Dec 2008 at 3:27 pm #
Scott, couple of things I’d like to challenge what you’ve said in your past 2 comments.
Regarding prophets, you said “No doubt prophets, Biblically and today, have had such things follow, but I don’t think Deut 13 or 18 gives a law-oriented prescription that a prophet has to perform such. But, also, as someone else commented, I think we need to distinguish between having the gift of prophecy and functioning in the role of prophet in the Eph 4:11 [Open in Libronix (if available)] sense.
Is it possible to separate the role of the prophet from the gift? Or more importantly, can we discard the authority of the prophet’s words as words straight from God? In other words, if prophecy is speaking for God, then that prophecy will necessarily carry authoritative function that I don’t think we can eliminate because we’re separating the role from the gift. Also, if a person is fulfilling the role of the prophet, in the early church or even today, why would they then be exempt from the requirements of a prophet?
I think this also begs the question of the role of prophecy in the NT. Just because I Corinthians 14 indicates that the role of prophecy is for edification, exhortation and consolation does that then put the prophetic function in a different class as the role of the OT prophet? I would say not necessarily. See all we have is the fact that people prophesied (chapts 11 and 14) but not what was being proclaimed. If prophecy is proclaiming the word of the Lord and based on Heb 1:1-3 the final authoritative word is found in Christ, then the prophetic function in the NT would have to support God’s ultimate revelation in Christ. In this way, the NT prophecy had no different means than OT prophecy but proclaiming a new truth, which was Christ. Perhaps, this what edified the whole church as described in I Cor, which was important as the new church was getting established.
By separating the gift from the role, I think you’re creating a tiered structure of authority that I don’t think has a biblical foundation. Prophecy in the NT sense, would have to proclaim that which is authoritative which is God’s revelation in Christ, inscribed for us in Scripture and I don’t think the foretelling of events in people’s lives.
Jason C on 28 Dec 2008 at 3:40 pm #
Eric, you’re welcome to your opinion, but I really think your opinion is wrong. The text clearly indicates more than one nation would do the razing of Tyre, and the use of “they” rather than “he” to my mind clearly indicates that more than just Nebbie was in view here.
Lisa Robinson on 28 Dec 2008 at 3:43 pm #
Also, regarding apostles, are you indicating that there are modern apostles today? I am not sure I agree with you regarding your assessment of 2 Cor 11-12 in that this passage does not support signs and wonders and being exclusive to the apostles. But one thing I do believe is that the signs and wonders were necessary to authenticate apostleship (Acts 1:8, 22; 2:43). And the apostles being witnesses, were exclusive to the early church period.
As with the prophets, I believe the apostolic function was also to confirm the ultimate revelation in Christ and in this way, the writings of the apostles were themselves, prophetic. This supports, I believe the passage you cited in Eph 4:11 and also most notably Eph 2:20, which laid the foundation for the church. The signs and wonders were all part of this package.
EricW on 28 Dec 2008 at 4:07 pm #
Jason C on 28 Dec 2008 at 3:40 pm # Eric, you’re welcome to your opinion, but I really think your opinion is wrong. The text clearly indicates more than one nation would do the razing of Tyre, and the use of “they” rather than “he” to my mind clearly indicates that more than just Nebbie was in view here.
You may be right. I.e., the promise of the despoiling of Tyre may have been regarding the cumulative work of many nations, and Nebuchadnezzar happened not to be one of the lucky ones who was compensated in spoil for what he did or tried to do.
I’ll read it with that in mind.
ScottL on 28 Dec 2008 at 4:37 pm #
Lisa -
Thanks for the thoughts and challenging my understanding. I don’t separate the prophetic gift from the role of the prophet. Obviously a prophet will prophesy. But consider this: just because someone prophesies, that does not make him a prophet. Another example is that just because someone shares Christ with their friend and sees them come to the Lord does not inherently make them a gifted evangelist. But an evangelist will have a great gift in leading people to Christ. I think even for someone like Saul to prophesy in the OT did not make him a prophet per se (1 Sam 10:9-13). But he still prophesied.
Still, I should probably lay out more concerning the prophetic gift. I definitely don’t want to create tiers, but I think the Bible, with the full revelation of the NT considered, does warrant three different functions, or measures, of the prophetic gift:
1) Prophet (Eph 4:11-13; 1 Cor 12:28-29) – called to equip the body of Christ to fulfill their prophetic role
2) Gift of prophecy (1 Cor 12:10) – see this gift manifest regularly in a person’s life, yet they are not necessarily equipping others in this gift
3) All may prophesy (1 Cor 14:5, 31) – Paul instructs on how we can all prophecy and do it appropriately in our gatherings
True prophecy is truly from God and carries authority. I am not an advocate that NT prophecy is ‘less than’ OT prophecy. But what I am distinguishing is the weight given to and intricate details that usually come from those who have a greater measure of prophetic gifting. One who is a prophet in the Eph 4:11-13 sense will probably see and hear more from the Lord than someone like myself who has more of a teaching gift and role, yet not to negate that I can hear a direct word from Him and speak it forth. And we will listen for those who are more prophetically gifted to bring forth a pertinent word from the Lord in situations, yet not unwilling to hear the Lord speak through each of us.
And, yes, I agree that all prophecy does ultimately relate to Christ. As Rev 19:10 says, ‘For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.’ Prophecy is ultimately testifying to Christ.
ScottL on 28 Dec 2008 at 4:40 pm #
Lisa -
On apostles, yes I do believe apostles exist today. In one sense, I would argue that if prophets exist today, then the logical conclusion would be that apostles exist today as well. They go hand in hand as foundation layers and equippers of the saints.
I did a series on Apostles Today. If you are interested in seeing more of my thoughts, you can click on the link.
Rob on 28 Dec 2008 at 8:38 pm #
Michael:
I have just finished reading your entire series.
My first impression is that the distinction between cessationalist and continualist is fuzzy at best.
You describe yourself as a cessationalist. I would describe myself as a continualist.
However, I am not convinced there is that much of a difference between yourself and myself.
It sounds like you acknowledge that the Scriptural support for cessationalist is weak (I agree). It also sounds like you acknowledge that your are a cessationalist because you have not yet encountered anything with us Charismatic / Pentecostal types that seems genuine. I understand
I would like to point out that there is a logical difference between believing that a certain office or gifting is Scripturally impossible as opposed to not knowing any valid instances of the gifting or office in operation today.
For example, I know of no instances of the office of apostle today. However, I do not discount the possibility that (1) I misunderstand what the gift of the apostle is, (2) that the office of apostle is around somewhere in the word today and I (in my limited knowledge) am not aware of it, (3) God could restore the gift of the apostle at a future date.
It sounds to me that this is your position in regards to the sign charismatic gifts in general.
If that is the case, I sense that the only real difference between yourself and myself is that you have yet to see a baby in all of the bathwater that you have encountered while I, while acknowledging that I certainly have seen plenty of bathwater, do believe that I at times have at least seen glimpses of a real live baby.
Oh..technical issue. The whole right side of what I am typing seems to be going into some type of black hole.