Comments on: The First Christmas: Myths and Reality

By: Christmas-ing « ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (in Christ Jesus)

Christmas-ing « ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (in Christ Jesus) — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:22:25 +0000

[...] Copan: The First Christmas: Myths and Reality By the way, as I find more substantive and meaningful content on the Christmas season I’ll [...]

By: Paul Copan

Paul Copan — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:06:06 +0000

Thanks for the further comments, Stephen and Oliver.

You’re right, Oliver. The story isn’t as pathetic as is typically told. Luke’s text indicates that there wasn’t a rushed labor and delivery or not being welcomed in Bethlehem. As to Christian theology (anthropology, to be more specific), I would add that we shouldn’t let the fact of our adoption as God’s sons and daughters eclipse another fact–that we are deeply flawed and remain in a fallen condition, though God by his grace continues to transform us. In 1 Timothy 1:15, Paul calls himself the “chief” of sinners. Or as Martin Luther said, we’re simultaneously justified and sinners (simul iustus et peccator).

As Stephen points out, the magi likely came later, but the clear implication (knowing what we do about life in first-century Palestine), Joseph would have come to his own family/relatives and thus a home–certainly not an inn in a small town like Bethlehem. Given the importance of hospitality in the Middle East, especially in light of Mary’s being with child, a (relative’s) home setting at the birth and when the magi visit is strongly suggested by various factors: “no room in the *guest room*”; stalls attached to houses; Joseph’s coming to his own family; the importance of hospitality in the Middle East. Luke and Matthew fit together quite nicely–the home of Joseph’s relatives being implied in both accounts.

I would add to Stephen’s comment that “Away in a Manger” is indeed one of the more tepid Christmas songs. And let’s hear it for Isaac Watts and John Wesley!

Well, that’s all folks. On to this month’s posting—on N.T. Wright.

By: oliver marks

oliver marks — Fri, 26 Dec 2008 05:33:24 +0000

I have heard a few emotional dramas depicting the birth of Christ as horrid and wretched, so the clarification on” inn “and”guest room” ties in a few things for me, which relieves me in that it seems odd that the birth trumpeted by angels would be so bleak,and that the God who remembers the deer in labour deserts Mary and Joseph at that time .my conclusion for the stories is that too often X’ns like to see themselves as wretched, instead of as sons of God

By: Stephen Ley

Stephen Ley — Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:28:01 +0000

I always cringe when we sing “Away in a Manger” at church, and refer to it half-jokingly as the Christmas carol only a Gnostic could love. I’m afraid several other of our well-loved holiday chestnuts flirt with the same errors.

I so appreciate the gospel proclaiming and theologically sound lyrics of Isaac Watts and Charles Wesley at this time of year especially!

By: Stephen

Stephen — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:17:03 +0000

I dont know if anyone else has pointed this out as I havent had time to read all of the responses but Matthew and Luke are not in conflict with where the baby was born. If you combine both stories its easy to see. Matthew does NOT say Jesus was born in a house, it says the wise men visited them at a house. If you compare that with Luke, the wise men are not even mentioned in Luke. But Luke does show that they were in Bethlehem long enough to perform everything according to the law which means at least 8 days but could be much longer. It is very feasable that he was not actually born inside the house but then by the time the magi got there he was in a house. Especially since Josephs family was from Bethleham. I’m sure as people started to clear out after the census there was pleanty of room. This is especially true since Herod killed the babies under 2 years old apon realizing that the wise men didnt come back to tell him where they found Jesus.

So basically what you have is Matthew talks about the wise men (magi) and Luke talks about the sheperds. And it never says that the wise men arrived at the initial birth, it could have been any time before they left Bethlehem.

Anyway, not that any of that really matters, but I thought I’d bring more light onto the subject since I’ve never felt there was any conflict at all between the two stories like the author of this writing suggested there is.

By: Paul Copan

Paul Copan — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:21:26 +0000

Thanks for the further comments. Yes, those (flying, wingless!) angels aren’t to be tinkered with. Their presence tends to create fear and dread.

By: C. Barton

C. Barton — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:02:03 +0000

God’s angels, the “Mighty Ones” can fly and I think do a whole lot of other awesome things that we, bound by the natural laws in our bodies, cannot do. Whether or not they are depicted with wings is up to God, I guess. Some of them carry a sword, too!
As awesome or scary or magnificent as they are, the Psalms tell us that, “The Lord is mightier than these!”
I think it is interesting that Herod had not a clue about Jesus’ birth and whereabouts, but the common folk, shepherds and such, had a special message delivered to them by the angels!

By: David McKay

David McKay — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 23:44:44 +0000

Angels wings
I always think about angels at Christmas and ponder why people today think angels and fairies are more or less the same.
In the Bible angels are of masculine appearance [sort of like God's soldiers] and are scary.
Whereas people depict angels like feminine fairies, who wouldn’t hurt a fly.
And I do wonder about angels’ wings.
I have been reading through the Bible for the 7th time and have not encountered stuff about angels wings yet, however Gabriel is said to fly in Daniel.
Daniel 9:21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.

By: A Slightly More Fun December Test « Dawg Cogitans

A Slightly More Fun December Test « Dawg Cogitans — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:32:23 +0000

[...] December 11, 2008 by ngilmour The First Christmas: Myths and Reality [...]

By: C. Barton

C. Barton — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:13:42 +0000

A common thread among Biblical researchers has the Migdal Eder as the most likely place of Jesus’ birth; this place near Bethlehem was where the special lambs were born – the lambs destined for sacrifice within Jerusalem.
This strikes a clear note with me, because Jesus was and is our sacrificial lamb, as it says in Revelation, “Behold the Lamb who was slain . . .”!