XAPIC KAI EIPHNH

XAPIC KAI EIPHNH

EricW,

OK, EricW, I’ll humor you.

1. What is the source of Orthodox theology? Answer:

“St. Irenæus writes thus: We ought not to seek among others the truth, which we may have for asking from the Church; for in her, as in a rich treasure-house, the Apostles have laid up in its fullness all that pertains to the truth, so that whosoever seeketh may receive from her the food of life. She is the door of life. (Adv. Hæres. lib. iii. c. 4.)”

2. What constitutes Apostolic Succession? Answer: See blog roll at P&P under said title.

3. What makes the Liturgy Divine? Inspired by God himself Holy Scripture.

4. What differenciates priests, patriarchs, and laymen from the dicta of Holy Scripture. The Answer: To believe in their uniqueness and inerrancy and infallibility.

5. What differenciates Tradition from Holy Scripture. Answer: See Metr. Philaret’s exposition.

6. When you take seriously the word of God at St Mt 1:25 (Is 7:14) and my already presented historical representation (something which even Patr. Bartholomew would assent to), then you will see the truthfulness and reasonableness of what has been laid bare.

By the way, EricW, the OCA is under the jurisdiction (however loosely) of the MP.

The above are cold, lifeless propositions until embraced by faith.

Vladimir

P.S. I make no retractions for my above posts.

Vladimir:

My unanswered question to you remains:

What would YOUR priest say if during confession you told him you do not believe Mary was “ever-virgin” – i.e., a virgin her whole life – and in fact believe that she and Joseph had children together?

As you yourself note, I didn’t use a Greek Orthodox Church source; I linked to a GOC site that used an article by an Orthodox Church in America (OCA) Orthodox priest. You claim the source for his essay is a Protestant scholar, but you refuse to explicate. Until you do, though, such a claim is unfounded and merely hearsay. Also, what difference does his source make? If it’s what the Orthodox Church teaches – and apparently the GOC and the OCA think so – then it doesn’t matter if the source was an atheist biblical or church historical scholar.

At this point, your claim that Mary’s ever-virginity only means that she was perpetually ordained to be a virgin with reference to Christ’s conception (and birth) seems to be held by one Orthodox person only – i.e., yourself.

I am quite familiar with what’s said during the Divine Liturgy and the other Sunday services. That has nothing to do with what appears to be your uniquely-held understanding of what you say the Orthodox Church and many Orthodox Christians believe and teach about what the “Ever-Virgin” in “Ever-Virgin Mary” means.

(You imply that I am someone who is “within [Eastern] Orthodoxy.” FYI, I am not. Also FYI, I believe the plain reading of Matthew 1:25 suggests that Mary and Joseph had marital relations after Jesus’s birth.)

CNI and EricW,

As long as either of you continue to define the understanding of Mary’s virginity from either Roman Catholic or GOC sources and disregard the historical development of and the plain and ordinary sense of her virginity in the Scriptures, I would simply have to view either of you as those within Orthodoxy who believe other than others within Eastern Orthodoxy.

Further, if I were to tell you the source of Fr. John Hainsworth’s essay, who is pastor of All Saints of Alaska Orthodox Mission of Victoria, British Columbia, was a protestant scholar, you might cring and shutter. Therefore, I won’t be explicate.

Among the 300 million Orthodox there are those who believe either/or, but not both/and.

On any given Sunday there are about 700 verses read from the Holy Scriptures – not to mention the daily Scriptural readings from the lectionary. This is the bedrock of Orthodoxy – even Christianity.

Vladimir

Eric

Thanks for your clarification on your own particular stance.

I have found your explanations of the teachings most helpful, as it has helped me understand where I do not stand on certain issues, if that makes sense.

Being unaffiliated, you are one of the more fortunate and blessed ones amongst us, though I guess there must be some strands you feel more afilliated towards than others!

britphil:

You have no knowledge of, nor have I stated, what “church” (whether big “C” or little “c”) I belong to.

“Unaffiliated” would probably be the most accurate description at present.

My comments are based on objective knowledge and/or personal experience and/or past C/church membership or affiliation and/or what I have read or studied, and are not necessarily statements of what I personally confess, profess and believe.

Hi Eric

Thanks for your comments and clarification.

I find I have a similar problem concerning the use of the phrase “the Church” within my own denomination.

I often find myself gently pulling people up when they use phrases like “the Church” or “the Church year” as if they themselves solely constitute the length and depth and width and height of God’s church.

People use it as though anybody outside of Anglicanism/Roman Catholicism/Greek/Russian Eastern Orthodoxy is somehow outside the scope of the church, but it is a concept I simply refuse to buy into whatsoever.

I find it can sometimes lead to a sense of superiority over other Christians which is unmerited, unhelpful and certainly not God-given, inspired or ordained.

In my opinion, that this is even a point of “orthodoxy” for any Christian tradition is a historic, biblical, and theological travesty. I say you can believe in the ever virgin or perpetual virginity doctrines if you desire and are convicted of such, but to imply that it is a central issue of the Gospel and the Christian faith, seems very idealistic for creedal maximalists. Oh that our theologies would be allowed to carry a truly Christocentric approach.

Love you guys, but please see where I am coming from.

britphil:

To clarify:

In the context of my question, which was addressed particularly to Vladimir, when I asked if such a person is “truly Orthodox” I meant a person who is in line with and in agreement with, in belief and practice and confession as understood and taught by the Church, the so-called “Eastern” Orthodox Church(es) – not generic little-o Christian “orthodoxy” which usually means belief in the Trinity (along the lines of the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed and the Chalcedon Statement), the divine origin and inspiration of Scripture, salvation through Jesus Christ, etc., as professed by most Protestant Christians.