God's View of President Barack Obama

# on 05 Nov 2008
Politics

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1. Scott Ferguson on 05 Nov 2008 at 12:40 pm #

   How far does this Will-of-God thing go? Will all outcomes of the Obama administration be His will as well? Do we “credit” the Bush years to God? Does this apply to all world events? What about Free Will? Does democracy have any meaning if God chooses the outcomes?

   I suppose these “problems” are no more troublesome than predestination to your average Calvinist, right?

2. britphil on 05 Nov 2008 at 1:01 pm #

   Hi Michael/Scott

   Michael. Thank youn for such an unequivocal and clear call to sbmit ourselves to OAND GOVERNANCE.bamyOPU AEa ruile.

   You are so right in that this does not mean we can’t criticise or rage even sometimes at some of the deicsios that are made but we need to recognise the authoprity he has.

   However, I am with Scott on certain things. Just how far do you go here.

   “Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what I have appointed”

   Bearing in mind that yesterday woul’t have happened at all but fro the hum,ble courageous defiance of a certain lady by the name of Rosa Parkes in Alabama, I would not go as far as you wwould in sayiong that gobvenments must always be obeyed whatebver the cost. To me thios conmdones apratheid in South Agrica, and woerst of all ewould have encouraged complicity with Hitler if you were libving in Germany in the mid to late 1930s. I am very much on the side of Diertrich Binhoeffer in the path that he took, aewvne though it evntually led to his death in a conctration camp. I feel total compliance with your argument wiould lead to a state where evil is allowed to prosper because the good do nothing, and believe God is teaching and instructin thenm to do nothing.

3. britphil on 05 Nov 2008 at 1:07 pm #

   Sorry guys, here is what it should have read like…

   Hi Michael/Scott

   Michael. Thank you for such an unequivocal and clear call to sbmit ourselves to the governance of Barack Obama. You are so right in that this does not mean we can’t criticise or rage even sometimes at some of the decisions that he may make but we need to recognise the authority he has been given under God.

   However, I am with Scott on certain things. Just how far down the road do you go here?

   “Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what I have appointed”

   Bear in mind that yesterday wouldn’t have happened at all but for the humble and courageous defiance of the state racial segregation laws by a certain lady by the name of Rosa Parkes on a bus in Alabama some 40 years ago. I would not go as far as youwwould in sayiong that governments must always be slavishly obeyed whatever the cost. To me this legitimises and condones apartheid in South Africa, and worst of all would have encouraged complicity with Hitler if living in Germany in the mid to late 1930s.

   I am very much on the side of Dietrich Bonhoeffer in the path that he took, even though it evntually led to his death in a concentration camp.

   I feel that total unquestioning compliance with your argument wiould lead to a state where, in Burkeian terms, evil is allowed to prosper, not just because the good do nothing, but because they believe ardently that God is teaching and instructin thenm to do nothing.

4. Del on 05 Nov 2008 at 1:07 pm #

   Michael, I think you may be on to something in the first paragraph when you say, “People are much more tolerant about religion because my decisions and beliefs don’t necessarily affect you.” Religion when properly practiced is voluntary. Politics is the process by which a few force others to their will. Obama as president may be God’s will but democracy (51% deciding what the 49% can and cannot do) isn’t his ideal. In fact, I would say that God’s ideal is not for us to have any king but him. God gives a grave warning to the Israelites as to why they shouldn’t seek to have a ruler like the other nations (1 Samuel 8:4-22). I know God’s ideal seems far from what we have but shouldn’t we be striving for it? No ruler but Christ over me, I say. On election day I voted “No” for president.

5. Markd on 05 Nov 2008 at 1:11 pm #

   For the last week or so I have had kids coming up to me all freaked out at the (then) probable election of Obama. I suppose their churches and family members have them all worked up about how he will bring about the end of the world, is the anti-christ, etc. In my little red-neck corner of the South this in not uncommon. We made it past the Jimmy Carter administration. We can make it past the Obama administration. Yes we can! How do we do it? Pray for God’s protection and wisdom to saturate Pres. Elect Obama. And always, always, always pray for the peace of Jerusalem. That is our ticket out of this mess.

6. LAL on 05 Nov 2008 at 1:27 pm #

   cmp,

   I have no problem with what you say in this post. In fact I say “amen” to your prayer. After all, the believers in Rome were living under a political system that was hardly humanitarian and in a society rampant with unrighteosness but Paul says : “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

   However, I have been struggling to reconcile this word of Scripture with the American revolution, or the passiveness of European Christians during Hitler’s rise to power.

   I believe the true Lord is Jesus Christ, not ceasar.

7. britphil on 05 Nov 2008 at 1:31 pm #

   “However, I have been struggling to reconcile this word of Scripture with the American revolution, or the passiveness of European Christians during Hitler’s rise to power.”

   LAL. I couldn’t agreemore. In the case of the European Christians I am afraid it was largely the Roman Catholic Church who, along with some of Protestant denominations, who were the most passive and complicit with the Hitler regime.

   One of the very few exceptions was Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Lutheran pacifist pastor who saw through Hitler as early as 1933 and considered him to be so evil and dangerous that he joined a collaborators pact to bring about his execution and downfall. The plot failed he and was sent to a concentration camp where he died.

   He is one of my all-time Christian heroes.

8. Matt Dabbs on 05 Nov 2008 at 1:35 pm #

   I don’t doubt that what you have written is entirely possible. I think we have to be very careful when we say God did this or God did that when it comes to some of these things though. None of us would say God put Hitler in power. I am not saying Obama and Hitler are the same…far from it. But if you apply this same logic and interpretation across the board you are in for some clearly problematic results.

   God can use it and maybe God caused it. But I am not going to say he did or he didn’t in such an unequivocal way.

9. LAL on 05 Nov 2008 at 1:45 pm #

   Matt,

   I believe that the Scripture really is saying that God arranges the goverments of the world according to His will. Does God rejoice when powers are evil? I think not. However God brought the Assyrians to Israel just as much as He appointed David king!

   Does this trouble me? Yes, but I believe it.

10. Susan on 05 Nov 2008 at 1:59 pm #

    Amen Michael. A good word for the day.

11. C Michael Patton on 05 Nov 2008 at 3:30 pm #

    Folks, by saying these things does not mean that we are going to agree with the decisions of Obama or think that there could not be a “better” president. What I am saying is that God, according to his own sovereign will, has Obama as his man of the hour. I don’t know what it will bring, but in supporting Obama, I am supporting God’s will.

    I believe that the situation of the Revolutionary war is different on may accounts. It would be difficult to say that there was an “established government.” Therefore, I am not sure that their was a Revolution in the truest sense.

    As well, I don’t think that there is anything that Obama is ultimately in control of in such a way that anyone could justify such a revolution considering the democratic nature of our government. Yes, things could change to such a degree that such a consideration is possible, but they are certainly not there in my opinion.

    In this way I rejoice in God’s will, whatever that may be, without being passive in political engagement.

12. Jugulum on 05 Nov 2008 at 3:38 pm #

    Michael,

    Speaking as a fellow Calvinist… I’m a bit offended. It’s almost as though you think we should rejoice in suffering, or give thanks in all circumstances.

    But seriously, folks!

    I do think it’s worthwhile to make a distinction, which wasn’t clear in your post, Michael. When we say that “Obama’s presidency is God’s will” and we rejoice in God’s will, we should not mean that his presidency itself is a Good Thing, to be anticipated & rejoiced in. Any more than Hitler’s ascendancy was a Good Thing, or Job’s suffering, or the enslavement of Joseph.

    Certainly, God has a good intention in Obama’s presidency, and we should rejoice in that good intention. But when God decides that an evil thing will occur, it is still as abhorrently evil. (e.g., The crucifixion–which we both rejoice in, and deplore.)

13. Paul in the GNW on 05 Nov 2008 at 3:40 pm #

    I wouldn’t say Obama is God’s choice. Certainly God allowed it to happen. He allows us to have free will.

    He let us have what we chose, and what we deserve!

    Pray, fast, rely upon God and live a Christian life. Teach our children. And respect the legitimate government of the USA. BUT… there are limits to legitimate government AND Obama is NOT God’s annointed.

    Peace

    Paul in the GNW

14. Jugulum on 05 Nov 2008 at 3:46 pm #

    Uh… Michael, I have no idea what you mean by “supporting Obama”. And I can’t agree or disagree till I do.

15. Tom on 05 Nov 2008 at 3:49 pm #

    All,

    Yes the election is over. Has God’s will been done? Only He knows. If we say that God’s will is always done, then why did Jesus instruct us to pray that His will would be done on Earth, AS IT IS in heaven?

    I refuse to accept that abortion, or any other of myriad evil things that occur is God’s will simply because it happens. Does not God desire all men to come to repentance? It doesn’t happen on this earth, does it?

    This is NOT intended in any way to be a refence to the just passed election result, but is for the point of illustration.

    Can we disregard the latter part of Romans 1, that illustrates God giving the wicked over the their sin, so that they would receive punishment in their bodies?

    Didn’t God set Pharoah up so that He could illustrate His power and deliverance? I can’t abide with the position that whatever happens is God’s will and I should just go along and bless it.

    The whole issue is, I think, much deeper than my IQ, but I’m not going to throw my common sense out the window simply because a slick operator with the aid of a complicit media deceived a gullible electorate.

    Don’t think either that John McCain was my 1st pick, as among the Republican hopefuls he only finished one from the bottom. Sure God sets up governments, sometimes so He can knock them down to illustrate His power and anger. We shouldn’t lose sight of that.

    OK, I’m done. I needed that.

16. minnowspeaks on 05 Nov 2008 at 3:52 pm #

    I cannot wrap my head around this notion. If all is in God’s control the way you are proposing then what can possibly be wrong with abortion, starvation, murder, rape, slavery, whatever other evil you want to choose? What is the point?

17. Lisa R on 05 Nov 2008 at 4:03 pm #

    Very nice! God truly does work everything for His good even if He is not the author of it, even the stuff we can’t quite figure out or the stuff we don’t quite agree with. He is in control, for sure. Oh that all who claim Jesus as Lord woud adopt your prayer.

18. C Michael Patton on 05 Nov 2008 at 4:05 pm #

    Minnow, all I am doing is recognizing God’s will. The other option is to say that this was NOT God’s will and that God is somehow not in control of who is the President of America. I cannot reconcile this theologically or biblically. Even evil, in a very real sense, is under God’s control.

    Does this mean that everything is “good” or “righteous”? Christ’s death is something we both rejoice in and morn. God’s judgment is something we rejoice in and morn.

    It is about submission to God’s will through his movements, even if the movements don’t represent the “perfect” will in a “perfect” world.

    Therefore, in all things, we rejoice, knowing that God’s will and kingdom do not get slowed by the supposed “powers” of men. God will use Obama to his glory, even if we may abhor the instrumental decisions made by this man.

19. Joshua on 05 Nov 2008 at 4:14 pm #

    Since people seem to be having difficulty with Michael’s discussion:

    Why did God raise up Babylon to come and crush Israel?

    As Michael has said, its not necessarily that God’s Will be a “happy thing” for us (especially if we need some pruning), because it certainly wasn’t for Israel.

    Also, I am not saying Obama is going to be this (and I think its obvious that Michael doesn’t necessarily believe that either), but its just the reality that God isn’t suprised by having a radically liberally President in office who has “control” over both the House and the Senate.

    Obviously he mutilates Scripture and has unbiblical views about the nature of aboration and homosexuality, but it just provides more oppertunities for Christians to stand up and stand out for what we truly believe.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Your brother in Christ,

    -Josh

20. Jugulum on 05 Nov 2008 at 4:16 pm #

    minnow,

    The crucifixion of Christ was both an evil act, and was God’s will. The Assyrians’ attack on the Israelites was God’s will, but was still an evil act.

21. Paul in the GNW on 05 Nov 2008 at 4:32 pm #

    I concede that if God willed, he could as a “puppeteer” put a particular man in the Presidency just to set up some other chess move aka babylon., or to punish humanity or whatever.

    And I also concede that if God saw fit, he could write the script to elect Joel Olsteen, or Mark Driscoll President.

    Of course God can, and I believe will, bring good out of every evil, that does not mean that God wills evil.

    I’m sorry, although God does have a plan to bring blessing from this, and that God could have chosen to enforce his will upon us, I am not about to go around saying that an Obama Presidency is the will of God. Ridiculous!

    Peace

    Paul in the GNW

22. Paul in the GNW on 05 Nov 2008 at 4:37 pm #

    The other option is to say that this was NOT God’s will and that God is somehow not in control of who is the President of America.

    No, the more reasonable and probably option is to say the God did not choose to exercise his power to change this outcome. That doesn’t make it conform to his will.

    Peace

    Paul in the GNW

23. Jugulum on 05 Nov 2008 at 4:37 pm #

    Paul,

    I just don’t see any ground for calling it “ridiculous” that doesn’t equally apply to (1) the crucifixion, (2) Job’s suffering, (3) the Assyrian attacks on Israel, and (4) Joseph’s enslavement.

24. dac on 05 Nov 2008 at 4:38 pm #

    CMP.Jug, and similar calvinist Neanderthals

    Oh, how I hate your right. Because I don’t want it to be true, but the bible is what it is, and it tells us who God is.

    And I would rather, sometimes, it not be so.

    And the oddest part (to me) is that somehow, it is all to the glory of God.

25. C Michael Patton on 05 Nov 2008 at 4:47 pm #

    I don’t want this to come across wrong, but I deal with this as I deal with many other things I would not have preferred in my life, from the small to the great.

    Smaller issue: We moved into a house in Norman (when we should not have), lost some significant income and are now having financial difficulties. This is a bad thing, but I have to believe that it is where God wants me.

    Bigger issue: My sister committed suicide a few years ago. This was terribly tragic and I would do anything to have her back. But, at the same time, I believe that it was, in a very real sense, the will of God.

    In both of these circumstances, I could say that this is not God’s will. I remember attending a funeral of a girl friend about fifteen years ago. She was shot in her car. The preacher said without qualification “THIS WAS NOT THE WILL OF GOD.” I shuddered at such a statement. Was God off the throne.

    I think it is good to distinguish the will of God here. There is God’s will of decree and will of desire. I believe that all things abide under God’s will of decree, but not his will of desire. I don’t believe that my not being able to pay some bills or my sister’s death were God’s desire. In a perfect world, this would not have happened. But, all God has to work with is a fallen world where sin is present and lessons need to be learned. Therefore, his often “terrible will of decree” is enacted. Yet, even in such circumstances we can rejoice knowing that God is in control and he knows what he is doing through the allowance of such difficulties.

    Having said all of this, I do want to mention how there is a deep sense of pride and excitement that we have a black president. What a great thing to rejoice in this is. (Although I would have rather had the All-State guy )

26. Post election thoughts « Shiny Pretzels on 05 Nov 2008 at 4:47 pm #

    [...] Read his full post here. [...]

27. Paul in the GNW on 05 Nov 2008 at 4:48 pm #

    We can argue about what it really means for any of these examples to be God’s will, I take the position that God allowed them to happen – not that he directly willed them – and used them for his glory.

    Besides that argument, the fact that because as you view God willed some misfortunes, that every evil is God’s will.

    You aren’t claiming that it is God’s will that 1.5 million unborn babies will be aborted in the US this year are you? You aren’t claiming that the terrorist attack 9/11 was God’s will are you?

    Yes God allows bad thing to happen. Yes he can turn all thing to the Good. Yes he has the power to stop them, but he doesn’t always do that.

    Peace

    Paul in the GNW

28. Alexander M Jordan on 05 Nov 2008 at 5:08 pm #

    Michael,

    While as a Calvinist I fully agree with your point that God’s will (in one sense of the word) has been revealed in the outcome of the Presidential election, in another sense, God’s will has not come to pass in the election of a radical abortionist to the White House.

    I am afraid too that your article seems to suggest that no other outcome to this election would have been possible. However I believe that if we Christians were doing a better job at being “salt” and “light” in our culture, and living in deeper obedience to the truth, Obama would not have been elected.

    How is it that so many who name themselves Christian apparently supported Obama? I’m afraid that your article may lend these folks some sort of false comfort when perhaps we should be wailing and mourning and rending our garments that God has brought a baby-killer to rule over the USA.

    I am going to do some soul-searching. I fear that Obama becoming President is an indictment of my (our) tepid witness.

29. Jugulum on 05 Nov 2008 at 5:12 pm #

    Paul,

    I can at least see that argument for the case of Joseph–though the use of the same word “intended” for both God and the brothers makes that a bit difficult.

    I don’t really think the case of Job’s suffering is very arguable, but it’s not a simple one-verse issue, so I’ll ignore that one. (But I would encourage you to listen to or read Piper’s recent conference on that.)

    But with the Assyrians, they were the “rod of God’s anger“. This was not “allowing without intending”.

    But are you really trying to tell me that God “allowed” the crucifixion but didn’t directly will it? (Note: If you mean that he did not directly cause it, I agree.)

    Note: You’re correct that these examples don’t prove anything about how God works in general. But if you accept any of these examples, it pulls the teeth from any argument that “God couldn’t have willed this evil thing to occur, because God is good!”

30. Jugulum on 05 Nov 2008 at 5:15 pm #

    Michael,

    “I believe that all things abide under God’s will of decree, but not his will of desire.”

    I’ll put that in more straightforward terms:

    God did not delight in Paul’s suffering & persecution. But he did will that Paul would go through it.

31. Vance on 05 Nov 2008 at 6:57 pm #

    Since I am not a hard determinist, I don’t think Obama was “God’s choice” for President, or that God caused him to win, anymore than I think God caused Katrina to happen or made that fly just come buzzing into my office. I don’t think it was God’s specific, deterministic choice that I took Adams Ave to work rather than State Street. I don’t think God is writing this post, overriding my intent and insisting that I write this . . . very . . . word. So, I don’t think God pulled the levers, or marked the ballots, using our minds and bodies as mere automatons.

    I think God has established the world and His creation, including all of us, to work a certain way, and knows exactly what will happen. And, since He is timeless and all past and future time is just “now” to God, then that original creation with that knowledge creates some very strange anomalies, but still, I don’t think God has a predetermined choice for what I am going to eat for dinner tonight.

    Or who we choose for our president.

32. Jugulum on 05 Nov 2008 at 7:43 pm #

    Vlad,

    Minor point: “hard determinism” doesn’t mean “exhaustive predestination”. Hard determinism, AFAIK, is the view that free will is an illusion.

33. JKU on 05 Nov 2008 at 9:14 pm #

    @Alexander,

    I’m a Christian who struggled for MONTHS with this election trying to decide how I should vote. Some days I nearly made myself sick as I tried to discern what was the best choice. I finally decided to vote for Obama because, as abhorrent as his views on abortion are, he gets it right on the Iraq war and health care for all Americans. Additionally, his party has a plan to reduce the number of abortions by a huge percentage in the next decade. It is appalling that we, as Evangelicals, have lined up behind a party that hasn’t even gone to the effort of putting a plan on paper just because they pay the right lip service. I decided to stop being manipulated by a party that wasn’t really interested in solving a problem as long as it could be milked to garner support and looked at more than one issue.

    If I were you I’d watch phrases like “so many who name themselves Christians.” It makes you sound judgmental, condescending and, frankly, a little naive. As if something as simple as my vote in this election could decide whether I rest in Christ. It also fails to take into account that we just elected a Christian to office. Is he a Christian that might be wrong on an issue? Yes. Is it a significant issue? Absolutely. Does this make him less saved, or does voting for him somehow make me less saved? Not a chance.

34. Bill Kitchen on 05 Nov 2008 at 10:11 pm #

    What name will he use when he takes the oath of office?

    I, Barack Obama….

    I, Barack Hussein Obama….

    I, Barry Barack Hussein Obama….

    ????

35. EricW on 06 Nov 2008 at 12:01 am #

    God placed Obama in the presidency according to his sovereign will. That is right. Obama is the man God decided would be our next president.

    Well, sometimes God has His off days. November 4, 2008 was one of them.

    But since He has an Omega 13 device that He can use at any time, as well as numerous times, He can always correct or redo His flubs.

    And He will. Unless He has a string of off days.

    Since you’re now venerating the Theotokos, you might want to ask her, too, to intercede for us during the next 4 years.

36. Peter on 06 Nov 2008 at 2:07 am #

    “I praise God for this. In fact, I will rejoice at the revealing of his will.

    Why?

    Because, ultimately, God is in control of who sits in the White House.”

    Just because it is in some sense his will, doesn’t mean it is a matter for rejoicing, any more than Israel had cause to rejoice when the Assyrians destroyed them.

37. minnowspeaks on 06 Nov 2008 at 8:00 am #

    WOW! I must have a really wacked out version of the Bible. I just don’t see it, CMP. The beginning and the end–I get that. The middle? God created, He gave man free will. He is always available but we simply have to choose. He is omnipresent, the very hills cry out of His glory. Yet we still must choose. Our bad choices reveal our need for God. Our good choices reveal our need for God. He is revealed but we must choose.

38. LAL on 06 Nov 2008 at 8:20 am #

    Paul in the GW,

    You said, “I take the position that God allowed them to happen – not that he directly willed them”

    I don’t see in Scripture the teaching that God allowed anything that was not His will. The concept that evil and suffering happen in God,s world is there in scripture, but if you mean that God sets the world loose to find its own way… well that is more of a deist view of God. God is not to be blammed for evil (Romans 9), but all things occur according to His will.

    President elect Obama is a servant of the will of God.

39. Alexander M Jordan on 06 Nov 2008 at 8:27 am #

    JKU

    I appreciate that you put lots of time and thought into your decision about how to vote. Unfortunately, from a Christian perspective, esp. regarding the issue of abortion, I think you made a really bad decision.

    Obama is a relentless pro-abortion advocate who, unless God radically changes his mind on the issue, deems abortion a “right”. He does not view it as morally wrong. Therefore, his agenda is to make sure access to abortion is unfettered and that it stays that way. Unlike McCain who stated that he believes Roe vs Wade is wrong and must be overturned, Obama may very well nominate Supreme Court justices that will ensure that that terrible decision isn’t overturned.

    I am not judging whether you are a Christian or not. But the fact is that many who name themselves Christian voted for Obama, when his position on abortion clearly contradicts the Bible in way that is absolutely clear. You admitted his position on abortion is “abhorrent”. To then go ahead and support him anyway is wrong. As a Christian I don’t think his positions on Iraq and health care are so wonderful that they justify voting to support his radical stance on abortion.

    I think it is naive to think that everyone who calls themselves born-again Christians in this country in fact is a born-again Christian who practices what he/she preaches. If that were the case Obama would never have been elected on Tuesday.

40. JKU on 06 Nov 2008 at 8:52 am #

    @Alexander

    I shouldn’t have commented the first time and I shouldn’t be doing it again now. I know better than to attempt to change minds with the internet but your sanctimonious attitude is just so frustrating.

    Bully for you, you’re comfortable in the moral superiority of your vote because you blindly think one issue trumps all others. Abortion is terrible, I’m against it, I hate that anything I did no matter how insignificant might contribute to even one procedure. All that said, I bet you felt pretty morally superior four years ago when you (I’m guessing) voted for a president that went against the bibical principles of peace (pro-life isn’t just for the womb anymore) or caring for the environment. You obviously felt superior this time around when you voted for someone who was going to continue to fight an unnecessary war and who wasn’t all that interested in providing health care for all Americans (you might remember Jesus healing a lot of people, so obviously health and physical well being are important in the Kingdom).

    Now, the one point on which we agree. Not everyone who claims Christ in this nation actually belongs to him. True. But to maintain that somehow my vote is the anti-Christian choice when it was a vote for peace and health…well, I’ve already used the word naive and it wouldn’t be proper to use anything stronger.

    On a purely political note, the whole Supreme Court Justice issue is a smokescreen. Even assuming McCain, who is not exactly a tried and true conservative by any stretch, appointed Justices that are conservative, that’s simply no guarantee they’ll do anything about Roe v. Wade. In fact, you’d be more likely to get the opposite. It has been the law of the land, for better or for worse, for 30 years. Conservative judges, by their definition, are LESS likely to overturn laws the longer they’re on the books.

41. EricW on 06 Nov 2008 at 9:15 am #

    Because, ultimately, God is in control of who sits in the White House. The plans of the heart belong to man, but the Lord makes things happen (Prov. 16:1). God placed Obama in the presidency according to his sovereign will. That is right. Obama is the man God decided would be our next president. This is exactly what he wanted to happen.

    Nothing happens in and of itself. Everything has a cause, or multiple causes, and all things are connected at some point. If God put Barack Obama in the White House, it’s because 40-some years ago, God put Barack Obama’s parents together in a carnal way, and sometime during the next 40 years, God made Barack Obama take cocaine and hang around Marxists so he would be and become the person he is today, and before that God made the Vietnamese fight a civil war so God would one day make John Kennedy and others go fight there so God would send John McCain there so God could make John McCain’s plane crash so John McCain could spend years in prison, during which time God made John McCain decide to stay with his men, previous to which time God made people in Arkansas and Mississippi racist bigots so God could make a man named Martin Luther King give an inspiring speech that God made him write so it could make God inspire people to vote for Barack Obama years in the future, meanwhile God made the Beatles and made them write the songs they did so a new generation of people that God made would create a counter-culture that would culminate in Woodstock Nation that would result in movements like environmentalism which would ultimately lead to a large number of people being made by God to believe in global warming and no coal plants so God could make them vote for Barack Obama, etc., etc., etc.

    It all goes back to the fact that God made Eve listen to the snake, and made her take and eat the fruit. It’s all God’s fault and all God’s doing. Praise His holy name.

    Personally, I think the reasoning and conclusion expressed in the subject
    post are flawed, if you hadn’t figured that out already. I.e., once you make God responsible for everything, then EVERYTHING is on the table in terms of what you can credit or blame God for doing. It ends up being theologically nonsensical, even if it is right. You can delimit the things God does or doesn’t do based on your own theological or personal preferences, but you’ve already given away the argument once your premise is that God makes everything and makes everything happen. It becomes just your opinion that God made Barack Obama President but He didn’t (due to your free will) make you write the exact words of this blog or make me write the exact words of this response.

    Or so I think.

42. Seriously? on 06 Nov 2008 at 10:05 am #

    Ok, I get it. God placed Hitler in power on purpose, knowing he would kill millions of Jews and Gypsiy’s and mentally challenged people. God placed Pol Pot in power on purpose, knowing that he would bring about the killing fields. God placed Stalin in power on purpose, knowing he would starve to death aover 10 million Ukranians and millions of other farmers. Yep. Exactly the people that “God is Love” (to quote the apposlte) wanted. Because, of course, all that killing and destruction brings glory to God as he exercises his sovereign power to bring about exactly that amount of killing and torture that he wanted. Yes, the aborted babies, when they get to heaven will cry, “Glory to God for putting Obama in power so taht knowing that he would repeal the Born Alive Act and result in my death by exposure and slow starvation. Yes, God is good. Obama in power was exactly your will. Bless you forever for rigging the vote. Amen” NOt.

43. Alexander M Jordan on 06 Nov 2008 at 10:43 am #

    JKU,

    You’ll notice that I referred to your argument as wrong but haven’t said anything in judgment about you personally. It sounds to me as if you’re really convinced that you voted rightly. But on the other hand you don’t seem to give me much charity (sanctimonious, morally superior, blind, blah, blah). My friend, take the log out of your own eye.

    It is not a question of my feeling superior– who cares what I feel– it is a question of doing the right thing.

    “Abortion is terrible, I’m against it, I hate that anything I did no matter how insignificant might contribute to even one procedure.”

    Give me a break. Then live with the consequences of your choice, brother, in that you knowingly cast your vote for the man who is the most pro-abortion politician in American politics. If you feel guilty and defensive about it, don’t lash out at me with your rationalizations. And if abortions continue unabated you can know that your vote helped.

    “Pro-life isn’t just for the womb anymore”

    Sounds like a bumper sticker.

    The issues of whether the war in Iraq was/is necessary or whether health care ought to be universally provided by government are debatable.

    I certainly had reservations about going to war in Iraq. Now that we are there however I think a hasty exit is not the right course of action.

    Yes, Jesus heals and He healed throughout his earthly ministry– and He called the Church, not government– to heal in His name. I don’t believe that His call was for government to do the job.

    Again, both these issues are debatable. But I think abortion trumps both issues in importance and it was much more clear where both candidates stood on them.

44. Tom on 06 Nov 2008 at 10:52 am #

    JKU,

    There is a pretty clear commandment against murder.

    National health care is not a biblical concept, period. Jesus healed with the power of God, to prove who he was. He did not take money from Peter to pay Paul’s doctor.

    Saul has killed his thousands and David his tens of thousands, with God’s approval. Sometimes you have to make war against evil, you must have missed those parts of the Bible. Next time you are getting mugged, don’t call the cops, it’s just an unnecessary conflict and they shouldn’t get involved. Your rhetoric reveals you as a lefty, and your priorities reveal your worldview.

    It isn’t my concern whether you are a Christian or not, however my OPINION is that any person who puts national health care before abortion on their priority list follows a different God than me.

    Sorry if that leaves a bad taste in your mouth, but I am already sick of nominal “christians” who use worldly reasoning for their vote in favor of a man who approves of sucking the brains out of a partially born babies, then throwing out the broken corpses like so much trash.

45. Jugulum on 06 Nov 2008 at 1:10 pm #

    EricW,

    I understand why you find that satire compelling. But from my end, it looks like you’re aiming at a strawman.

    Because “God made ___ happen” doesn’t apply to what I think about how God’s will & power & sovereignty works, in evil situations. I don’t think that God “makes” people do evil things, I think that he allows them to.

    As do you, I’m sure. The differences seem to come in somewhere in what we think about the following:
    1.) Whether “God allows” also applies to things like the Crucifixion–things where we know that God actively decided they would happen.
    2.) Whether God allows these things to happen with a particular purpose, or simply because “I’m not going to interfere with their free will.”

    (I’ll go on, assuming that your answer to 2) is what I said–and not some third option. Correct me if you need to.)

    The problem is, your answer to 2.) is going to sound hollow and vacuous to anyone wrestling with the questions that you and Seriously? bring up. It is unfathomable to me that anyone would take comfort in the idea that God allowed the Holocaust to happen because he didn’t want to violate the free will of the Nazis. Unless God was lying down on the job–even if you’re an open theist!–you have to say that God decided to allow it to happen, or some reason. And if your child has been sexually abused, you’re going to be asking “Why did God decide to allow this happen?”, period.

    And your answer–”For the sake of free will”–is going to sound about as hollow as mine–”For the sake of a good purpose that He is bringing about”. I don’t see how yours could ever satisfy. Neither is likely to.

    Unless, that is, you really have a deep-seated trust in God’s goodness, wisdom, and working-in-all-circumstances.

46. EricW on 06 Nov 2008 at 1:13 pm #

    Jug:

    My satirical post (but it wasn’t really satirical; it is the logical outcome of
    believing this) was based on the original article’s statement:

    Because, ultimately, God is in control of who sits in the White House. The plans of the heart belong to man, but the Lord makes things happen (Prov. 16:1). God placed Obama in the presidency according to his sovereign will. That is right. Obama is the man God decided would be our next president. This is exactly what he wanted to happen.

    The above implies that God makes everything that happens happen, and that everything that happens is what God wanted to happen. Since nothing just “happens,” but is the next step in a continuous and seamless series of multiple and interrelated and linked causes and effects, for God to make something happen means that He makes every part of the event happen. For if that’s what He wants to happen, then He makes every wave of a butterfly’s wing happen so it will properly affect and effect in every little and every great way all the things that are involved in making happen what He wants to happen because He decided it would happen.

47. EricW on 06 Nov 2008 at 1:38 pm #

    To the question:

    “Is God sovereign, or does man have free will?”

    the only proper answer is “Yes.”

    Any answer other than that is merely argumentation.

48. Jugulum on 06 Nov 2008 at 1:50 pm #

    Eric,

    OK, I find your phrasing understandable, given the phrasing that CMP used in that quote.

    So, I retract the “strawman” reference. But I still find your viewpoint to be a hollow answer.

    The distinctions I made are still there, and–as far as I know–if you pressed for more detail, Michael would use similar language to describe the working of God’s will & sovereignty.

    You’re using “God makes X happen” in one sense… A sense which I wouldn’t use it. If you get past that, you come to the questions/issues I raised.

49. Tom on 06 Nov 2008 at 1:52 pm #

    All,

    This discussion makes me realize that applying all the wisdom of man to analysis of the wisdom and plans of Almighty God is frequently as significant as a puppy chasing it’s tail.

    I’m happy in this case to remember that “the secret things belong to the Lord”

50. Seriously? on 06 Nov 2008 at 4:52 pm #

    Tom, your answer only works if it can be shown or proved that no answer exists or that no answer is within the capacity of a human to find. However, it has not been proven that thie issue of God’s sovereignity is one of that class (i.e., a class of problems that has no solution that humans can find or determine). Hence your answer is not a helpful, useful or reasonable answer, merely a cop out and a discussion ender. “Hey guys, that’s a difficult issue, I don’t know the answer so let’s just not try to answer it but instead hold hands and sing kumbaya.” Not a useful response, especially when God tells us to use our minds in loving him, and provides us with the equipment to think about these issues. Indeed, the history of philosophy and theology has shown that progress can, and is, made on difficult quesions like these. [sorry about my typo's, when I type on this web site I cannot see the last 20% of the comment box and so type blind]. The difficulties that Eric and I raise are not as significant as a puppy chasing its tail, because they are indeed the very reasons that have either caused people to leave faith in Jesus, or to reject it outright. Easy, and recent examples are Dennet, Dawkins, Hitchens, etc. The difficulties are also significant because the explanations given by Michael and Jugulum increase rather than decrease the sorry and pain that people feel when they experience tragedy.

    One problem, of course, with Michael’s statement is that, as worded, it is false. He only escapes the obvious dilemmas he raises by a more nuance statement. However, as worded, his statement excludeds the potential nuances that others have used to address the issue.

    Jugulum, the “God allows” argument doesn’t get him off the hook, because he started the ball rolling in the first place, making him responsible for all subsequent consequences. Moreover, we would then have to say that we shouldn’t be held responsible for failing to save others. So, for example, if a robber comes into my house with a knife, I am not responsible for failing to stop him from killing my children.

    Now some Christians have in the past been willing to accept that being responssible in that respect is not a moral failing (and so God is not immoral for failing to save us from our sins or from tragedy in general), and even willing to accept double predestination.

    What we must be careful to do is not to construct our concept of free will and moral action appart from what the Bible provides.

    In dealing with the Holocaust, Jugulum, what indeed does give more comfort? (1) That God could see the Holocaust coming and intentionally did not stop it, even though he could have, and I am coforted becasue of my belief that God is so strong and in control that he controlled it’s happening such taht he ensured taht it would happen? That I take comfort in God’s meticulous control of every detail in my life that I know he controlled the agonizing deaths of the millions in the concentration camps and the slow crush death of my cousin below the wheels of a milk truck. OR (2) That there is something so important about freely given love that God gives us this capacity even though that capacity can be misused for evil rather than love?

    It seems the latter is much more comforting, as evidenced by the writings of Wesley who found the latter type of explanation more comforting (and writers like him who recorded their thoughts and feelings and said that they were comforted by the latter explanation and discomforted by the former). It is also evidenced by the people who write into Boyd’s web site (Boyd being an open theist). I am comforted by the fact that I can both give and experience that kind of love, even though it comes with the danger that others may not love me and may in fact harm me.

    Books have been written on this issue, and I don’t intend to write one here, but my point, and I think Eric’s too, is that Michael’s statement was unecessarily innaccurate and un-nuanced.

    On an unrelated topic, your choice of the latin / medical term for the lower part of the throat [and, incidentally, known in vampire literature as the part the vampire bites (and part of the title of a vampire novel)], is interesting.

51. Todd on 06 Nov 2008 at 4:53 pm #

    I don’t necessarily see things that happen as God’s will. I see the things that happen in this world, both good and bad, as almost incidental, but no matter what has happened, it doesn’t stop God’s purpose and hope in this world. A parent can lose their two kids and feel their life is over and give up. God’s will isn’t that the two children die. That event doesn’t change who God is and what he is doing in our lives. God may or may not have made Obama president, but either way, it doesn’t do anything to prevent God from doing His work in this world and our lives. I see that as his will. I wish I could have said it more eloquently, but hopefully I got my point across.

52. Jugulum on 06 Nov 2008 at 5:15 pm #

    “In dealing with the Holocaust, Jugulum, what indeed does give more comfort?
    [...]
    That there is something so important about freely given love that God gives us this capacity even though that capacity can be misused for evil rather than love?”

    Part of the problem, Seriously?, is that “God respects free will” not only is uncomforting, but doesn’t explain (1) why God doesn’t stop suffering caused by disease or accidents or natural disasters, or (2) why God isn’t able to stop things like the Holocaust or 9/11 without violating free will.

    When God empowered the Israelites to defeat opposing armies, that did not (I assume) violate anyone’s free will. And if God had blessed the Allies to be able to defeat the Nazis more quickly, much of the Holocaust could have been prevented.

    And in order to explain things like 9/11, I think you have to restrict God’s options so much that he is less able to stop evil than I am.

    A human being who was aware of the immanent events of 9/11 could have notified authorities. So could God. The evil would have been stopped, by God taking the same kind of action that one of us could take. (And “notifying authorities” is only one example of the kinds of actions that could be taken.)

53. Jugulum on 06 Nov 2008 at 5:23 pm #

    Seriously?:

    Another problem: You’re left with saying things like, “God values love-from-my-version-of-free-will so much that he allows a man to choose to commit genocide without interference, such that millions of people are killed and unable to choose to love God.”

54. Vance on 06 Nov 2008 at 5:34 pm #

    Jugulum, you said:

    “You’re left with saying things like, “God values love-from-my-version-of-free-will so much that he allows a man to choose to commit genocide without interference, such that millions of people are killed and unable to choose to love God.””

    And I say that without qualm. Of course, added to that I would say that those who are not able to choose to love God will be shown a special grace.

    I think God *could* have stopped it, of course, but chose not to stop it, and this does not mean that it was God “choosing” it to happen, or causing it to happen, as part of some Divine, determined plan. God *allows* things to happen, all freely and “randomly” based on the laws and forces that He has created (ie, nature, etc), or based on the complete free will God has freely given to us. God, of course, *does* have a Master Plan, but that plan is not dependent upon a fixed and determined set of detailed events.

    God KNOWS when all will happen, and can, if He chooses, step in and make things happen, or not happen, when He chooses, as if explicitly described in Scripture. But that very description of “stepping in” and taking action, by definition, means that He could have chosen NOT to step in and things would have happened “naturally”. Now, when God chooses to step in and not to step in is up to God, and who are we to second guess those things. God did not make Hitler kill millions of Jews, and it need not have been an essential part of some overall “plan”, but His choice to allow it to happen, and not step in to stop it, is God’s sovereign choice.

    And, of course, God can take whatever happens, however randomly and however freely chosen and, in the end, use it all to accomplish his ultimate will. But, there could be an infinite number of paths that God could allow us to travel down along the way. The fact that God knows how that complex path will play out does not alter its free/random nature.

55. Jugulum on 06 Nov 2008 at 5:40 pm #

    Vance,

    I wasn’t saying anything about whether “God allows” is the same as “God selects”, or the level of meticulousness in God’s active selection of what happens. God’s permission, at least, is exhaustive.

    My point was that non-Calvinsits–even open theists–have to face the question, “Why did God allow X to happen?” Including in situations where: (1) No human choice is involved, and (2) A human being could act to stop the evil without violating others’ free will. (Leaving us to wonder why God couldn’t, too.)

56. Vance on 06 Nov 2008 at 5:52 pm #

    But God could. Of course. And we know from Scripture that sometimes he does act to stop evil and cause good, and the very description of him making those choices means He must also at times choose NOT to stop evil. Yes, we have face that fact, absolutely.

    And as for those horrible things that happen without human choice, such as natural disasters, again, I see this as just the result of the random, non-determined processes that God has set in place. He created the world in such a way that the wind will blow, but does not create each breeze meticulously (as I think you would agree).

    God created, for reasons of His own, a universe in which evil exists when He could have created a world in which evil does not exist. That is a basic premise that we have to accept and when we do, the idea of whether, and the extent to which, He allows specific evils to occur become less of an issue. Still troubling, but no more so than the basic premise.

57. Jugulum on 06 Nov 2008 at 5:58 pm #

    Vance,

    1.) Right, God allows evil to occur–both evil from human choices and evil/suffering/calamity from natural causes & accidents–for a purpose. At least sometimes, he determines to allow particular evils, which he planned to occur, like the Crucifixion. We have to trust him, even if we don’t always know “why” to our satisfaction.

    2.) So go back to comment #45.

    Note: I edited this comment after posting, to add #1.

58. Vance on 06 Nov 2008 at 6:05 pm #

    Yes, I read comment 45, and I don’t think it is about choosing the option which gives us the greater comfort. I don’t think God *necessarily* allowed the Holocaust *for* a particular reason anymore than God allowed me to swat that fly that flew in to my office yesterday for a particular purpose. There could have been a particular reason for either or both of those events, but need not have been.

59. Jugulum on 06 Nov 2008 at 6:32 pm #

    Vance,

    I wasn’t replying to you, keep in mind. I was replying to Eric & Seriously?.

    However, looking back, I see that I conflated Seriously?’s and Eric’s posts. Seriously? talked about the issue in terms of the problem of evil, but Eric didn’t. My bad, on that.

    But either way, I agree with what you just said. I don’t promote meticulous sovereignty; I don’t know how meticulous God’s sovereignty is. (It starts to get silly when we talk about God having a particular purpose for a piece of dust being .10 microns wide instead of .11 microns.)

    And in #45, I didn’t talk about God having a particular reason for every detail of everything that occurs–I talked about God’s permission for evil & suffering to occur.

    Note: Eric’s original objection has a point, actually. Because I don’t know how finely-tuned God’s active selection of things goes. But it doesn’t work for Michael’s post–because the Bible does teach that God appoints the rulers.

60. Vance on 06 Nov 2008 at 6:50 pm #

    Jugulum, I think we are pretty much in agreement, but I would tease out one bit you raise in comment 57, that the evil God might allow was because he planned for it to occur. That may be the case, but I think that much evil, including great evil, may just be allowed to happen regardless of how it works in any particular “plan”. God would not allow anything that would thwart His plan, but I don’t think there are many things that we can do that would thwart God’s ultimate plan.

    My thinking is that the “default” in God’s Creation is randomness and non-interference, and that God’s choice to intervene to cause or prevent is the exception, rather than the rule.

    Of course, this all gets very confusing (at the “things of God level” of complexity) when we consider that God created initially, setting everything in motion, even every random action, with full and complete knowledge of exactly what WOULD happen: which random events would take place and which free choices we would make. So, with this full and, dare I say it, “meticulous” level of foreknowledge, added to his ability to create it all slightly differently (resulting in a very different set of outcomes) there is still room to say that God predetermined everything.

    Thus, even with complete free will and a completely randomly operating universe, God had an infinite set of choices for HOW to create and thus, everything that happens, down to the most meticulous event, is the universal history God particularly chose. He could have created originally JUST differently enough that that mote of dust ended up being .10 instead of .11 microns. So, ultimately, we come full circle.

61. Tom on 07 Nov 2008 at 9:34 am #

    Seriously?

    “…your answer only works if it can be shown or proved that no answer exists or that no answer is within the capacity of a human to find.”

    My answer works because God said it, period. As to the continued discussion, it will continue until Jesus comes back. No one has ever satisfactorily explained it, and no one will. Our finite minds can’t get this one, but we can and will continue to try, so you are right that the discussion is necessary and good. Sharpen your understanding, and discussion points all you want, just don’t expect to solve the puzzle.

    “However, it has not been proven that thie issue of God’s sovereignity is one of that class (i.e., a class of problems that has no solution that humans can find or determine)”

    I never questioned God’s sovereignty, in fact my last statement confirmed my submission to it.

    “Hence your answer is not a helpful, useful or reasonable answer, merely a cop out and a discussion ender. ”

    It certainly hasn’t shut you up

    “Hey guys, that’s a difficult issue, I don’t know the answer so let’s just not try to answer it but instead hold hands and sing kumbaya.”

    Yep, I don’t know the answer, neither do you. My priority list says this one doesn’t need more of my time. Because of that I signed off with a philosophical statement which unfortunately reminded you of your insignificance in the overall scheme of things.

    Of course you got personal because you sensed that I had challenged your giant intellect, which is after al, “all knowing” Too bad it isn’t giant enough to solve this one, huh? You got the wrong guy with the kumbaya statement, I’m more of a slash and burn type and I don’t hold hands with men.

    The problem is, some folks won’t let you be courteous even when you try. So I’m stopping in your case and yielding to my more base desires. It ’s easy to be cocky and nasty, as you well know (feels good too). Congenial discussion takes more patience, and courtesy. You withdrew that, if you actually possessed any with to begin with.

    “Not a useful response, especially when God tells us to use our minds in loving him, and provides us with the equipment to think about these issues.”

    It doesn’t need to be useful to you, get your fulfillment from someone else. Your equipment is chasing it tail, some day, when it is operating more effectively, you may realize that yourself. Meantime take the stuffing out of your shirt, you’ll enjoy life more.

62. Wayne in Frisco on 07 Nov 2008 at 10:21 am #

    I enjoy reading so many of the threads on this site because of the good spirited discussions that take place and cause me to think. This one however, makes me want to cry. It is obvious that so many of the responses are from people who believe in a god that is not in control, is not sovereign, and whose will is not done. They picture a god wringing his hands just hoping that we will do his will and elect the right president?!? What kind of god is this.

    CMP – I applaud your response to the outcome of this election. I was not enamored with either candidate but would have preferred a different result, nonetheless. God’s will was done and is always done or He is not God.

    Since the election, I have had the opportunity to have genuine discussions about Christ with more people who are worried about their future than before. “Nominal” Christian friends have asked me about how God could allow this to happen and I get to share with them so that they begin to understand who God really is.

    An all-powerful God does not “hope” for anything. I wish I could state this in a way that didn’t sound so judgmental or condescending, but I wonder what bible people are reading. Matthew 10:29 “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.” Daniel 2:21 “He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning.”

    If your god is not in control of something as trivial as the U.S. presidency in 2008, how could he be in control of your eternal soul?

63. Seriously? on 07 Nov 2008 at 12:43 pm #

    Quote from Jugulum: “Part of the problem, Seriously?, is that “God respects free will” not only is uncomforting, but doesn’t explain (1) why God doesn’t stop suffering caused by disease or accidents or natural disasters, or (2) why God isn’t able to stop things like the Holocaust or 9/11 without violating free will.”

    Free will, though the term itself is not used in the Bible, is not intended to explain all evil, only those evilo done by beings to whom God gave wills: humans and angels. ONce evil enters the world, and once an becomes Prince of this World, then the scope for all sorts of non-willed evil apperars. Of course some evil that appears to us as natural (a volcanic eruption, a flood, etc.) may in fact be demonic without us ever knowing that fact, the natural order itself is upset and defaced and in need of redemption (and Paul does write metaphorically that it groans and cries out). So, the fact that free will does not account for all evil is not, logically, a strike against it.

    And I, and many others, find it more comforting to lay the responsibility for evil at the feet of another will than at the feet of God. And we also find a God that can create a truly free will greater, more powerful, and more glorious than one who cannot do so.

    A god who creates freewill is NOT bound to inaction thereafter, as your reply seems to im-ply. God has His own power and will to exercise. He can override or otherwise defeat the free wills of others. Just as a murderer can exercise his/her free will to kill another and destroy their free will., or a soldier can exercise his free will to stop a murder. Or the way in which someone can exercise their free will to extend their hand and stop a falling rock from hitting the ground.

    Hence, a comment like “If your god is not in control of something as trivial as the U.S. presidency in 2008, how could he be in control of your eternal soul?” is irrelevant and missing the point. Free will does not and cannot prevent an ominipotent God from acting. A God who creates free will is still in control and can exercise his own free will whenever and however He chooses.

    What free will attempts to account for is how we understand morality, love and responsibility. If I exercise my free will and power to grab someone’s hand, and tape a knife to it, and then foreably drive that hand to stick a knife between someone elses ribs and kill them, that person is not morally respondible for the death. I am. My exercise of my power, and my overcoming their will takes away their moral responsibility.

    God is in control by His very nature, which is omnipotent. And God declares throught scripture that he takes an active role in history–most powerfully through Jesus Christ wherein God took on and assumed the very physicallity of the universe he created.

    Let’s return to the holocaust. Regardless of our understanding of the nature of God, the fact remains that 6.5 million died. God is no less powerless under my explanation to stop the holocaust than he is under yours. And under both explanations he let the holocaust occur. Under your explanation, god controlled exactly who rose to power in Germany (Hitler), and God exactly intended that Hitler be in power. so God fully intended to have the millions die (which included the feeble, the lame, etc., as well as Jews). So under your explanation God is more intimately responsible for it. Forget about being powerless to stop it, that is not even an issue under your explanation. God fully intended it and brought it about.

    Under my explanation, however, God does wage war against the evil powers of this world. Byut he does it largely through intermediaries (people, angels), but sometimes also directly. And at the end of times he will do it all through his direct appearance and power. Under my explanation God did not intend the evil of the holocaust, but tolerated it occurring because the fulness of time has not yet come to pass. My God works to stop many evils through the body of Christ. But not all evils are stopped.

    Thus, under my explanation, Obama may in fact not be the one in power who God would prefer. But God tolerates it for now. God is omnipotent, and consequently anyone who is in power is in power because of God’s forbearance or because of God’s direct intervention (e.g., Joseph, son of Isaac).

    Under both scenarios (yours and mine) God is omnipotent and could prenvetn all evil. Under both explanations evil occurs. Under your explanation God intends the evil and brings it about, which I don’t find comforting. Under my explanation, God does not intend the evil, does not bring it about, and is grieved by it. Under neither explanation do we know why God allowed the evil (for your explanation, we don’t know why he brought it about, under my scenario we don’t know why he tolerated it occuring). However, the God under my scenario is one that I find a lot more comforting. Instead of saying, “I don’t know why God brought about the death of your child” (like John Piper), I can say that God finds the death of your child just as evil as you do. I can go further, however, and say that Scripture teaches that the time of evil is not yett fulfilled and until it is, it will continue to occur. Sometimes God intervenes and stops the evil (e.g., heals someone with cancer) and gives us a taste of the Kingdom to come. However, we live also in the “not yet” the kingdom of God is not yet fully come. Until it is fully come and all the works of the Divl detsroyted we will have to endure evil. That, to me, is a far more satisfying explanation. The God who suffers, who was crucified, shares my pain, experienced my pain, and indeed my experience of evil is given me aing because I share in the sufferings of Christ. God is all powerful, sometimes in the already experienced kindgodm he stops evil and we taste of his future kingdom, but sometimes he does not step in, because the time is not yet here for his full kingdom to appear and for all to bow before him. Why he sometmimes gives a taste of his future reign over all by healing or stopping evil, and why he sometimes does not, I do not know.

    But that lack of knowledge is far better, far easier to take, and I would argue, more Biblical, than your explanation (as I understand it) in which God intentionally and purposefully as part of some plan put Hitler on the top in Germany (or Obama in the U.S., where, if he fulfills his promises, he will bring about more abortions than any other president before him).

    Tom, I actually do think I have an answer, and I’ve been arguing for it. I also point to the progress over the last 2000 years that Christians have made in understanding the things of God as evidence for the belief that the discussion that Jugulum and Eric and I and others here is a profitable discussion. Since you don’t have an answer, and since you allege that no answer is possible, I don’t see why you bother to post. Your post was an argument that we should end our discussion because it was merely chasing puppy tails and not capable of resolution because it was permantently hidden from us by God.

    I am enjoying Jugulum’s responses. I enjoy reflecting on them. I believe that the dsicussion, since it is on the things of God, is glorifying to God. I disagree with J, and J does with me, but neither of us thinks the other is less Christian.

64. Tom on 07 Nov 2008 at 1:02 pm #

    ?Seriously?

    “Since you don’t have an answer, and since you allege that no answer is possible, I don’t see why you bother to post.”

    I’m devastated that I have not met your high standard regarding opinions about things under discussion for 2000 years without final resolution. But I’m confident you’ll work it out, just like I know Barack will appoint strict constructionist judges.

    “Your post was an argument that we should end our discussion because it was merely chasing puppy tails and not capable of resolution because it was permantently hdden from us by God.”

    Wrong again, my post was a sign off, directed generally without direct implication to anyone else, but indicating that I personally was not wise enough to provide an answer, and there are more important issues on which to expend my limited time and mental capacity. If that bugs you look up HUMILITY in your Funk and Wagnall. It will help with your literary flatulence.

65. C. Barton on 07 Nov 2008 at 4:58 pm #

    We don’t have to be “global” to put our ethnocentrism into focus. God doesn’t wave an American flag, or sing the Star-Spangled Banner.

66. Ruth on 08 Nov 2008 at 5:42 pm #

    This was Fr. John Corapi’s words on the matter: The American people have now made it abundantly clear who they want to lead them, and the policies and practices that this president-elect has represented for some time, they can now claim as their own. Actions have consequences, and I am sure God has duly noted what our priorities are in the US of A. Economic matters would seem to take precedence over moral matters; money more important than life itself to most people (I guess they don’t consider almost 50,000,000 innocent children murdered by abortion part of life).
    Now we shall see what the fruit of such a tree will be. I predict that we won’t have to wait long. In recent months we have seen “corrections” in the stock market, housing market, and banking industries. Now we’ll see if God orchestrates a “correction” in a country and a world that has demonstrated quite clearly that it prefers convenience and wealth to life itself.
    Regardless of whatever happens next, remember there is still a God in Heaven and He loves you. He is infinitely merciful—and He is infinitely just as well.

    God Bless You

    Fr. John Corapi

67. EricW on 08 Nov 2008 at 9:58 pm #

    Someone elsewhere (not on this blog) has said something along these lines:

    America was built on the backs of black slaves and the blood of Native Americans. Yet it became the greatest nation in the world and the greatest economic power as well. It won two World Wars for itself and for the world, after surviving a Civil War less than 100 years after its birth that would have destroyed most other nations.

    As horrible as abortion is, the United States and its people have always been a mixed nation in terms of doing good and doing evil. Its Presidents have rather checkered personal histories, let alone its Senators and Congressmen. Its leaders have not been the epitome of godly men.

    Why do people feel that abortion is somehow the Big Straw that is going to break the United Camel of America’s back? It might … but it very well might not.

68. Vance on 09 Nov 2008 at 12:26 pm #

    Eric, I agree with this entirely. The US is not “going to hell in a handbasket” and these are not “signs of the end times”. Clinton was just as pro-abortion, yet we survived. We will have our good presidents and bad and America will keep on trucking.

    The question is whether we should consider Obama to be God’s specific CHOICE as president, and that it is somehow part of God’s master plan that he, in particular, be in office rather than someone else. I don’t think God’s plan is that meticulous to depend on who is president or not, and God’s Sovereignty is not of the type that requires that every event on this planet being specifically controlled and “willed” by God. I believe that it is part of God’s Will and God’s complete sovereignty that many, if not most, events happen simply naturally and randomly and subject to the free will of his Creatures, including Mankind. When God chooses, He intervenes in a direct manner to cause or prevent. I have no reason to believe that the choice of a single president in history is one of those times.

69. Tom on 10 Nov 2008 at 9:10 am #

    Eric

    “America was built on the backs of black slaves and the blood of Native Americans. Yet it became the greatest nation in the world and the greatest economic power as well”

    I disagree, those periods were long over when this nation became a superpower. It was built by the hard work and dedication of it’s people, all of them. While slaves and their descendants have given much to the cause of the nation, Indians have not given proportionately more than the average American, and an argument could be made that they are on the lower end of the percentile range, unless you count untaxed casinos.

    I am not going into the whole “we stole their land thing”. This land was bound to be settled, no matter who started it. Because it was settled, it progressed, had it not been settled, the many diverse tribes, often at war with each other, would not have brought it to the place it occupies today.

    This nation progressed because of the the rule of law, and European settlers, not in spite of them.

    “Why do people feel that abortion is somehow the Big Straw that is going to break the United Camel of America’s back? It might … but it very well might not.”

    Thou Shalt not Kill…

    It was important enough for God to put it on the short list, we need to hold it in the same high regard.

70. britphil on 10 Nov 2008 at 10:26 am #

    Tom

    “But thou shalt not kill”

    If it was a simple as that, why are exceptions made in the arena of war, especially every war that allied forces have fought in, where murder is often explained away as being “just” (because allied forces and governments would never wage and unjust campaign would they?)

    This includes most notably and controversially Iraq, which is not just in breach of “thou shalt not kill” but whose justification was founded on a breach of another commandment “thou shalt not bear false witness” (ie the alleged existence of WMDS).

    This also made the shortlist but, like the “thou shalt not kill” is conveniently explained away and disregarded when it suits.

71. Tom on 10 Nov 2008 at 11:02 am #

    BritPhil,

    Greetings! Context, context!

    “But thou shalt not kill”

    “If it was a simple as that, why are exceptions made in the arena of war, especially every war that allied forces have fought in, where murder is often explained away as being “just” (because allied forces and governments would never wage and unjust campaign would they?) ”

    We know that the commandment is actually

    “Do no murder”

    Big difference from that point of view. I don’t see any biblical example of God judging a person engaged in a war, killing in battle, being considered a murderer.

    Killing an unborn infant is certainly not comparable to battle deaths. And for the most part, I do believe that if you have to judge causes as to who is more righteous in war (hard thing) the allies have historically represented the more just cause. Clearly my opinion, but you won’t succeed in changing it, and an awfully large number of people live today in liberty thanks to those actions. Here is a list

    France, Germany, Norway, Finland, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Algeria, Morocco, Romania, Kosovo, Panama, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, Denmark, Kuwait, Egypt, Montenegro, New Guinea, Indonesia, Thailand, Greece, Russia, Tunisia, Ukraine, Albania, Hungary, Belgium, Austria, Libya, Korea, Japan, Italy, and now Iraq…

    I’m OK with this.

    “This includes most notably and controversially Iraq, which is not just in breach of “thou shalt not kill” but whose justification was founded on a breach of another commandment “thou shalt not bear false witness” (ie the alleged existence of WMDS). ”

    You have first fallen into the WMD trap. If you go back to all the data at the time, WMD’s were not the stated cause for the invasion. That is the spin of the leftpress ever since. However, if you really think he did not have them, try asking the many thousand dead Kurds, who were gassed by him. Or the Iranians during their war. There is your proof.

    Secondly, the entire world intelligence community at the time believed he had them, no exceptions. After all, he did proove it by using them, what else is required? Where is the false witness? To be guilty of a lie, you must know your are lying. Saying something you fully believe to be true, which is later proven wrong is not a lie, it is ignorance. The entire world was ignorant at that time….or he got rid of them during the extended run up to war (more likely), and one day Syria will use them.

    So then, does any of that excuse abortion on demand? Bush lied, people died, so I can kill my baby…? Absurd.

72. britphil on 10 Nov 2008 at 11:30 am #

    “or he got rid of them during the extended run up to war (more likely), and one day Syria will use them.

    Aaah here we go…Syria

    Are you aware that following the allied invasion of Iraq, whden the Shiite and Sunni Muslims were invited to share power in the name of democracy, the almost immediate consequence was the persecution of the Iraqi Cheristian community.

    Thousands of Iraqi Christians fled thir homes. Are you aware of the only country which welcomed them with open arms, whose government generously gave, yes gave/donated them land so that they could resettle and builfd their lives and alos happens to be the most modern, progressive, tolerant and stable democracy in the entire Middle East…a land where Christians, Jews and Musilms are enocuraged to respect one another and live together harmoniously.

    The answer, in case you were wondering is Syria!

    Given the fact that George Bush is dangerously on the lookout for some sort of “legacy” to shore up his increasingly desperate and failed administration, it may only be a matter of time before these longsuffering Christian brothers and sisters will be packing up and fleeing once more as a result of yet further unthinking gung-ho Allied aggression. I am hoping that the good sense of Genral Petraeus, who has been the best thing to hit the middle East in months will prevent such an occurrence, but once the hawks have got their sight on somewhere, and demonised it as evil, indiscriminate acts of aggression usually follow.

    And could you please answer me one thing. One country appeared to be missing from your extensive list. I have posed this question several times and everybody has sidestepped it deftly. Perhaps you would be kind enough to give me a straight and honest response. Given that most of the passports of the 9/11 bombers and most of the funding of Al Qaeda emanted from Saudi Araia, would not a far more just war have been to invade Saudi Arabia and secure a much needed regime change by removing the Saudi Royal family, who operate one of the most strictest and oppressive Wahhabist regimes to be found anywhere on the planet! This would have been the courageous and correct response…Iraq was merely a convenient one. But we cannot invade a country when there are lucrative oil contracts to procure, secure, protect and defend for then the correct and courageous course of action amazingly becomes less of a priority.

    I also find your sudden concern for the Iranians who suffered at the hands of Saddam Hussein really touching given that they will undoubtedly be next on the list, either before or after Syria.

    And one final thing Tom, you rightly criticise Saddam for the weapons he deployed against the Kurds, but the only other nation to have deployed and used a weapon of mass destruction on a large scale..was unleashed upon the residents of Hiroshima!

73. Tom on 10 Nov 2008 at 11:49 am #

    BritPhil

    Sorry, you won’t sell me the “wonderful Syria” piece. My momma didn’t raise a fool. Christians, Jews, others who live under Muslim authority are second class people, and tolerated only as they submit.

    W isn’t on the lookout for anything except the security of the USA. His legacy will be no attacks on US soil since 9-11-01, and that suits me. Wait til you see the new guy kiss up to our enemies, you will be delighted, and all of us will be less secure.

    I don’t really give a hoot about Iran, never intended to make anyone think I did. I was illustrating Saddam’s use of WMD, proving he had them. He was our ally at the time, which is highly embarrassing. Because there is ample proof of his repeated use of WMD, I get sick of the no WMD argument, it is fallacious.

    As to the Saudi’s, there I will agree with you. My choice would have been to take them down first, and it infuriates me that every adminstration in my lifetime has been in bed with them. I’ve always thought of them as the worst of the Arab nations, and the fomentors of all the problems.

    You can’t lay them at W’s door, he is just another one of many. There has to be some secret reason for this, but nobody is talking. I don’t think it is oil, they don’t have anywhere near the oil they claim, if fact their reserves keep increasing even when there is no new exploration, wonder how they do that. Also there is no proof they actually pump what they claim.

74. britphil on 10 Nov 2008 at 12:06 pm #

    Tom..now you are beginning to talk my language..well partly at least!

    “As to the Saudi’s, there I will agree with you. My choice would have been to take them down first, and it infuriates me that every adminstration in my lifetime has been in bed with them. I’ve always thought of them as the worst of the Arab nations, and the fomentors of all the problems. ”

    Can I say a heartfelt thank you (and I am beinmg serious and not being patronising here) for being the first person that I have heard come out and unequivocally condemn some of the more insidious activities of Saudi Arabia.

    “I was illustrating Saddam’s use of WMD, proving he had them. He was our ally at the time, which is highly embarrassing”

    But doesn’t this just stink. At the time he was gassing the Kurds he was our ally! Why did we not go in then instead of using it as a feeble argument later on. Isn’t that a case of locking the stable door way after the horse has well and truly bolted! Why did we not go in and save the lives of many of those Kurds before they were slaughtered?

    “W isn’t on the lookout for anything except the security of the USA.”

    I would not mind this, if he and you spared a thought for the rest of the world. The same world (and not just the USA) that God so loved that he gave his only Son to die for. They seem to be very distant from your thoughts. This is why so many people are glad to see the back of Bush, because guess what Tom, we matter too!

    And I am sure that while you bathe in the knowledge of your homeland security, that citie such as Madrid and London and the islanders of Bali have not been so fortunate and blessed.

    “Wait til you see the new guy kiss up to our enemies, you will be delighted, and ”
    all of us will be less secure.”

    Don’t be so hasty Tom. It would appear that Obama is not going to be cosying up to Iran if early indications are anything to go by.

75. Chima on 10 Nov 2008 at 12:07 pm #

    I concore 100% with Michael on the election of Barack Obama. America is the world’s only super power. America is the only nation that supports Israel – the apple of God’s eye. America is the largest producer of Christian literature including the all time best seller – the Bible. America is the biggest sponsor of missionary activities worldwide. America is the biggest donor to charitable causes. It is difficult to overestimate the importance of America in this generation.
    To now think that while God slept Obama crept into the White House unawares, is to accuse God of gross negligence and dereliction of duty. To think that God closed His eyes and allowed America to blunder through the election of the most powerful man in the world would be a form of deism. Was He asleep when Israel became slaves in Egypt? Was He asleep when Israel went into capivity in Babylon.
    I think King Nebuchadnezzar understood the supreme power of God when he confessed, “…And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will on the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say to him what doest thou.” (Daniel 4:35). It is also important to me to note that “…the Most High ruleth in the Kingdom of men, and giveth it to whosoever He will” (Daniel 4:24). Who would begrudge Him of that?

76. Tom on 10 Nov 2008 at 12:50 pm #

    BritPhil,

    It isn’t resaonable to assume that terrorists are targeting other nations bacause of us. They are doing it because it is what they do, and we have denied them their favorite target. They do however notice that many countries are not as willing as the US to try and exterminate them, and try to play that to their advantage.

    Do you believe the recent uprising in France was because of the US? The only way to stop a terrorist is to kill them. I don’t have a problem with that from a spiritual perspective. If they stop doing evil, they will stop dying.

    If you want to matter too, you have to stand against evil in more than word. It requires action. A gangrenous limb must be amputated to preserve the whole body.

    At the time Saddam was gassing Iranians, the Iranians were a worse enemy, so the government position was, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. When he was gassing the Kurds, he was our enemy, that was after the 1st gulf war. I do believe our objections to the way he was waging war resulted in his “accidental” missle attack on our warship in the gulf at the time, although I can’t prove it.

    There is no solution to the middle east. It has been in turmoil forever, and will be until the end. Look at Genesis 16:11-12, it explains a lot.

    It is necessary to try and keep a lid on it, so it doesn’t boil over into the rest of the world. Better to fight them there than here. Wish it wasn’t so, but wishing doesn’t help.

77. C. Barton on 10 Nov 2008 at 2:58 pm #

    The Middle East will never submit to a New (West) World Order; the term “Jihad” means struggle, and if the truth be told it represents the struggle for Islam to dominate the world, even to the extinction of those who will not convert to Islam or become second-class citizens under their oppressive rule.
    Whew!
    In the Torah, it says that premeditated murder is even worse than killing by mistake, or by passion, so the term “murder” in God’s judgement includes accidental manslaughter as well. War, then, must have a special sanction to be “just”; even Sun Tzu recognized as much.
    Anyone care to study the judgement against Nineveh? Put into modern terms, it sounds like an endictment of our own beloved United States.
    As for Tehran, if you talk to one of the urbane Persians, he will most likely tell you, “Oh, we love Americans, we just don’t like your government”, and yet we can see the same people yelling, “Marg bar Amrika” when in the common mob.

78. megan samuels on 10 Nov 2008 at 3:35 pm #

    I respectfully disagree with your assessment of God’s desire for Obama to be President…citing the first chapter of Isaiah. Throughout the Bible God let His children go their own way and then allowed them to suffer the consequences of turning their backs on Him. They learned from their mistakes just how much they needed God. I do not believe that God desires Obama to be our President…for one he supports the murder of innocent unborn children. I do however know and believe with all of my heart that God is still on His throne and that He is in control and that come what may as one of His children He will sustain me. There are many promises throughout the Bible that assure me of this. There are also NO promises in the Bible that the United States will always be a Nation or that nothing bad will ever happen here. I pray for this nation that we would see exactly how far we have strayed from God and that we would realize just how much we NEED HIM!!!

79. JRoach on 10 Nov 2008 at 4:15 pm #

    John MacArthur recently preached a sermon titled, “A Nation Abandoned by God.” Our society is in a downward spiral of disrespecting and blaspheming God/Jesus in a way that I have not seen in my own lifetime. I agree that God sovereignly has put president-elect Obama to lead our nation but I can’t help but think that we are getting what we deserve. His views on abortion, the gay-activist agenda, his liberal persuasion towards the character of God, etc. Our nation wants that kind of leadership. I am going to pray for him and that God would lead him. I will also pray that God will bring a revival to our nation and, like Ninevah, we as a nation will repent in dust and ashes. At this time I don’t feel comfortable celebrating the spiritual state of the union.

80. Alexander M Jordan on 11 Nov 2008 at 10:45 am #

    It is my understanding that what Michael was communicating in his article is his confidence that because God is sovereign over everything that happens, the election of Barack Obama is also under His control and is incorporated into His ultimately good plan for humanity.

    I think though, that by emphasizing this particular aspect of God’s will so much in the article, Michael almost seems to be endorsing the election of Obama as President as “God’s will” in the sense that this is a good thing that has happened. In another comment he says, “in supporting Obama, I am supporting God’s will”. Again, I think by this statement Michael means he concurs with God’s sovereign plan, which somehow will use an Obama Presidency for His glory, rather than he thinks Obama would be necessarily doing the moral will of God in his policy-making and actions.

    I think that it is very important to retain our confidence in God’s absolute sovereignty over this situation, that we may understand that God is the One who is the Authority over all authorities and that while he does not take away man’s freedom to make choices, He is sovereign in such a way that even human willing, actions and choices are part of His plan, as some have already pointed out.

    God may use evil choices and evil men to accomplish His will, but does not condone their sin nor cause it. I think that Obama’s radical position on abortion is evil and immoral and therefore I think God condemns it– in this sense, I think that it was against God’s moral will that Obama be elected as President.

    So as Christians we must continue to proclaim and live the gospel, so that evil becomes exposed by the light of our good deeds done in Christ’s name and by His power. We must walk in the humble recognition of knowing our inconsistency and sin has contributed to evil overtaking our society in many spheres.

81. Ruben on 11 Nov 2008 at 5:22 pm #

    I think one mistake is to compare America to Israel, America is not God’s
    chosen nation – the Church is!

82. Cathy on 12 Nov 2008 at 7:51 am #

    Honestly, I am having such a hard time with Barry being elected. It is hard for me to understand why God would appoint him president. I understand the argument that God puts bad people in power to show his mighty arm, but what about those of us who are true followers? So many times God wanted to obliterate the chosen people, but Moses would pray and remind God of his covenant and God would allow them a stay of execution. What about Lot? God arranged for a handful of people to be spared while punishing all of Sodom & Gomorrah. What about the Pilgrim’s who landed here and covenanted with God through the Mayflower Compact? I just cannot understand this man’s appointment. If we are strong and mighty in the Lord and greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world, well then why does it always seem that he that’s in the world has the upper hand? Wasn’t his head crushed on Calvary? I am sorry to be so negative, but I actually googled “why did God allow Barack Obama to be president” and I came upon this website hoping for an answer because I am so discouraged right now.

83. Tom on 12 Nov 2008 at 8:22 am #

    “I think one mistake is to compare America to Israel, America is not God’s chosen nation – the Church is!”

    Ruben,

    I have to disagree with you on part of this. The church is the bride of the Lamb, Israel is still God’s chosen nation, and will always be.

    You are right that Ameerica is NOT Israel, but our support of Israel gains us favor with God.

84. C. Barton on 12 Nov 2008 at 3:53 pm #

    Cathy, God said, “Let the wheat and the tares (weeds) grow up together . . “, so, we are to be in the world but not a product of the world. I hope that you can have more insight into just how much God is working in the world to keep us out of darkness and to bring about the best results in our lives!
    The Word of God has every good thing necessary for its fulfillment, like a perpetual resource for your soul.
    And I never get tired of quoting the verse about how every circumstance will eventually be turned into something good, with a good result, for those who have that Heavenly calling to become more like Jesus.
    Amen!
    Did the US ever have a “Godly” president?
    Anyone care to study the judgment against Sodom & Gomorrah? Put into modern terms . . .

85. Cathy on 14 Nov 2008 at 4:58 pm #

    C. Barton, you must mean the scripture “all things work together for the good of those that love God and are called according to His purpose”. Yes, that is definitely a scripture to hold on to in these times. Thank you for your feed back to my post.

86. C. Barton on 17 Nov 2008 at 5:46 pm #

    You’re welcome! I seldom ask God why He made it rain, but I do often carry an umbrella!

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