CBMW and dialogue
Over at the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood website (www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Never-Apologize-for-Gods-Truth) a blog post was put up on October 28. The title of the post: “Never Apologize for God’s Truth.” The blog post is a discussion about my essay, “Some Reflections on the Role of Women in the Church: Pragmatic Issues,” posted at http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=6133. I thought it misrepresented my views in some serious ways, so I wrote a response. I had thought that that response would either get posted on the site (it wasn’t), would have caused the author to alter what he said (he didn’t), or at least have stimulated the writing of a letter to me from the CBMW folks (they weren’t). Regrettably, I have to post my response here, because of the one-sided story that was given at CBMW. Here’s what I wrote:
A friend sent me the blog that was posted at CBMW about my recent essay on the role of women, posted at bible.org. I’m honored that my views would be considered worthy of discussing at CBMW. But I have to say, I think I was misrepresented.
Here’s what the blog post said, “Wallace responded by admitting that he could never embrace egalitarianism because it is clearly unbiblical; the text just does not support egalitarian claims…”
That’s far more than what I actually wrote on two fronts. First, nowhere in the essay did I say that I could never embrace egalitarianism. Not even close. Instead, what I said was that I could not go against my conscience and that, in my view, egalitarians were doing exegetical gymnastics. But even here I couched my statement with a note of personal perspective. Throughout the essay you will see qualifiers such as “For me at least,” “I think,” “probably,” etc. These points were mentioned specifically in relation to my exegetical certainty about the role of women in the church. Probably the strongest statement I made in terms of certainty was “I may not be comfortable with my complementarian position, but I am unwilling to twist scripture into something that it does not say. (I’m not saying that those who take an egalitarian position on this passage are willing to twist the scriptures! But I am saying that I think they are, in effect, probably doing this just the same.)”
Second, I did not say that egalitarianism was clearly unbiblical. Again, I couched all from my own perspective. As I concluded my essay, “after all the exegetical dust has settled, to deny some sort of normative principle to 1 Tim 2:12 is probably a misunderstanding of this text.”
I believe that the blogger got wrong his whole premise for the post because he assumed that I was certain in my exegesis and cowardly (or at least wishy-washy) in my behavior.
The irony here is that I was quoted out of context and misexegeted. I’m sure that some egalitarians will jump on this and say that complementarians do the same thing with scripture!
Allow me to clarify my view: Both since my exegesis is not certain and since this is not a central issue to the Christian faith, I cannot be as firm in my position or attitude as I can be on other issues. What is at stake here is one’s doctrinal and pragmatic taxonomy. The way the blogger wrote about my views it sounded as if he had a flatline in doctrinal nuancing. That, in my view, is not the healthiest way to think about scripture.
Daniel B. Wallace, PhD
Executive Director,
Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts
www.csntm.org
- Parchment and Pen Presents: Through Theology in a Year
- What Happened to this Blog?
- Needs of Reclaiming the Mind Update
- Is Wright Right about the Righteousness of God?
- Getting to know each other
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bethyada on 07 Nov 2008 at 5:21 am #
I have read your article and the blog post. By the way the link is bad.
You kind of come across as a hostile witness, one would think CBMW would use that to their advantage
I can see why Robinson said what he said, and I think his principle has merit. Though I think it unfair they do not give you a right of reply as your defence shows that your position is more nuanced than Robinson allows for. It is frustrating when others make claims for you but miss what you mean. Your comment explained it well:
Both since my exegesis is not certain and since this is not a central issue to the Christian faith, I cannot be as firm in my position or attitude as I can be on other issues.
An example of this (about an issue of even less centrality) could be the Nephalim. One may have studied the passage well hand come to a reasonably definitive conclusion on who the “sons of God were,” believe their conclusion but be uncomfortable with its implications, and also realise that it is of minor theological consequence.
Of course the gender issue is bigger than the Nephalim issue, but for Robinson the gender issue may be very foundational and he is carrying over his weighing of the issue to yourself. You may see it as less important (than Robinson does) and other issues more so.
bethyada on 07 Nov 2008 at 5:30 am #
Though I appreciate your honesty, I must say that I don’t have concerns about the complementarian system. While I could live with being an egalitarian if I thought that is what Scripture taught, that (I currently think) it teaches otherwise and many disagree is less of an issue.
I disagree with my pastor about several issues and sit (reasonably) comfortably under his teaching, and respect him a great deal. I also find some people who agree with me about various issues to be embarrassing and give the issue a bad name. But I think we need to just assess the issues and hold them with confidence, hoping we are on the same side as God, knowing that some godly men may disagree with us and some poor exegetes may agree with us.
minnowspeaks on 07 Nov 2008 at 7:01 am #
With all you additional nuance what difference does it really make? A complimentarian is a complimentarian whether in “good” company or “bad”. And, an egalitarian is and eglatarian whether in “bad” company or “good”.
Ranger on 07 Nov 2008 at 7:52 am #
1. The CBMW blog apparently doesn’t allow comments.
2. The blog wouldn’t publish your response.
3. The blog wouldn’t update the inaccurate post based on either the true context of the quotes or your response which they received via e-mail.
It doesn’t sound like they are either interested in conversation, integrity or the truth. As someone who agrees with their positions for the most part, I truly hope they have the class to respond to the situation, updating their post and publishing your response.
britphil on 07 Nov 2008 at 7:58 am #
Daniel
I am a card-carrying egalitarian but can I just say that I am appalled at the way your comment were twisted, skewed and misrepresented
I am afraid this is a failing that evangelicals on both sides of the fence fall into all too often.
I for one, can appreciate that your argument was carefully thought out and well argued even if I may not be in agreement with your overall position.
I am sorry that you were treated in such a way. You deserved much better.
Regards
Phil
britphil on 07 Nov 2008 at 8:00 am #
“As someone who agrees with their positions for the most part, I truly hope they have the class to respond to the situation, updating their post and publishing your response.
Well said Ranger.
It is important that we defend those with whom we may disagree, especially when they have been treated in a fairly shabby and dismissive manner, as has been the case here.
dac on 07 Nov 2008 at 8:40 am #
…since this is not a central issue to the Christian faith, I cannot be as firm in my position or attitude as I can be on other issues.
on the nitpicky logic front……Sure you can. Simply because it is not a central issue, doesnt mean you cannot have a firm postion on it.
"Never apologize for the truth" | The Daily Scroll on 07 Nov 2008 at 10:31 am #
[...] 11/7: Wallace posts a response at Parchment and Pen: “I thought it misrepresented my views in some serious ways, so I wrote [...]
Luke on 07 Nov 2008 at 11:22 am #
Dr. Wallace,
Sadly, this type of misrepresentation, rigidity in doctrinal matters, and downright dishonesty is extremely prevalent among many of these guys associated with and leaders of CMBW. More than once have I stumbled upon one of their adherents clearly and outright misrepresenting someone else’s view to their benefit (re:to make them look right). I find it quite heartbreaking that they require such an issue to be so divisive; their rhetoric is truly disturbing. I used to be in their camp, but they continue to lose more and more of my respect every single day because of stunts like this and because of their dishonesty with the totality of evidence. Just consider yourself as one among many who has been misrepresented by them, brother. Hope all is well!
Luke
C Michael Patton on 07 Nov 2008 at 11:33 am #
Are they in full approval of their bloggers? The reason I ask is because sometimes there is an implied footnote among community bloggers that the bloggers do not necessarily represent the ministry in every way. Maybe they will see this and respond appropriately.
Dan Wallace on 07 Nov 2008 at 12:02 pm #
Allow me to nuance a few more things. Michael, you may well be right: bloggers at CBMW might not be representative of the ministry. If I recall, the post was originally anonymous, but the author’s name was attached to it the next time I saw it. I could be wrong though: I’ve been in excruciating pain for the past couple of weeks with a ruptured disc in my neck (which occurred in the UK, where I’ve been for ten weeks, photographing manuscripts). Had surgery on Tuesday and got home yesterday. I’m pretty drugged up, so I’m sure I’m not catching everything. And I’ve got more titanium in me than Iron Man!
dac: you are quite right. I can have a firm position about more peripheral issues. I should flesh the point out however: if a topic discussed in the Bible is not central to the Christian faith, it may well have better chances of being discussed less and of not being articulated in scripture. In the case of the role of women in the church, I think this is largely true. The only place where women are explicitly told not to teach men is in 1 Tim 2:12. Now, my exegesis of that text is such that I end up in the complementarian camp. At the end of the day, I believe I understand what the text is saying–and I believe it is calling for some sort of normative principle, but egalitarians make several good points to ponder. Thus, precisely because this is not central to my faith and because I can understand how some decent exegetes can disagree, I choose to be more open in my attitude than in my posture. And that, according to Bruce Barron, is hardly hypocritical. This leads me to my final point.
Michael has challenged us all with asking for people to think through a doctrinal taxonomy. The way I lay out my taxonomy is to have central (to die for) doctrines at the core, those that are important for the health of the church in the second tier, those that are necessary for the pragmatic outworking of a local body for the third tier, and those over which we should not get worked up over for the fourth tier. I place the role of women in the church in the second tier, but close to the edge of the third tier. That is, local bodies need to decide how to deal with this issue; otherwise, disorder reigns. But I also think that a church is healthier if it embraces complementarianism in some form.
I hope this helps to clarify my views a bit.
Pantman on 07 Nov 2008 at 1:05 pm #
Dan,
To look on the bright side, at least the blogger chose a decent pic – younger and lighter!
Sorry to hear of your health. You did well to cope with us all if you were in such pain then.
And thanks for this. We never fail to learn from you – even in responses to misrepresentations!
Anthony
Cheryl Schatz on 07 Nov 2008 at 8:56 pm #
Mr. Wallace,
I greatly appreciated your comments and your correction of the view that was misrepresented in the CBMW blog post.
I also greatly appreciated that you do not place the issue of women in the church as being in the area of the essentials of Christian faith. CBMW certainly has gone to this essential realm as they place complementarianism as an essential element to discipleship and a failure to preach complementarianism as leading to a denial of the full gospel message. This position divides the church and leaves egalitarians as those who must repent or be found outside the true gospel. Any secondary issue of faith that divides the body of Christ in this way must be dealt with to stop the division that is hurting the church.
Thank you for posting this. It is so good to see a complementarian who still has a heart of love and appreciation for his egalitarian brothers and sisters in Christ. I trust that one day you will find the exegesis of 1 Timothy 2:11-15 that will help you to see that there is a viable option that allows the passage to free women to serve the body of Christ without prejudice, and that will deal with all the contradictions that has caused New Testament women to be less free than the godly women in the Old Testament were who never had any God-given “law” that forbid them from teaching men.
Blessings!
Susan on 07 Nov 2008 at 10:44 pm #
Drugged Scholar, actually, your surgery was on Wednesday, not Tuesday. But, that’s OK. Maybe you should take it easy for awhile. You just had surgery two days ago, and you are here, in a drug induced stupor. Why?
But, since you brought this up, I would like to know what your thoughts are about women occasionally teaching mixed adult SS classes. My impression is that you would not have a problem with this, because it doesn’t really involve taking a leadership position over men.
And, you might want to think twice about one-upping Iron Man around here. You know Michael’s passion for super heros. Maybe you will become a new super hero…..Iron Indiana (?). Take out the flat tire, put in the spare, a titanium plate in the head, and your good to go!
Michael, BTW, I found some Batman Die cast cars…. in various scales….. interested??
Susan on 07 Nov 2008 at 11:18 pm #
Dan, now that I’ve read the Bible.org article I’m not so sure you would be comfortable with women teaching an adult SS class. I mean that I’m guessing that your attitude would be to welcome rather than reject it, but you wouldn’t endorse it with policy (if that makes sense). (?)
How about a woman speaking up in a discussion in an adult mixed class? It’s difficult, in that it says that a woman should remain silent.
And interestingly, Paul Copan suggested to me today that I might consider teaching apologetics and evangelism at my church, and he offered to send me materials to work from.
Dan Wallace on 07 Nov 2008 at 11:29 pm #
Cheryl, thanks for your kind comments. I agree with some of what you said, but not all (what would you expect?
. Where I agree is in attitude: we must never treat any member of the body of Christ as a second-class citizen. I’m grieved that many complementarians have done just that. But it’s not essential to complementarianism. I know many, many complementarians who have lived out their beliefs the right way so that the women in their lives are fully respected, treated with dignity, granted all the freedoms that they believe that women should have, etc. And I have known many egalitarians who have treated women very badly. The worst culprits are egalitarian women themselves, believe it or not!
What I have not mentioned in this post is the christological analogy for why I am a complementarian. I believe that the second person of the Trinity is functionally subordinate to the Father–and was so in eternity past, during his ministry on earth, and will be in eternity future. Thirty years ago I told my students that as egalitarianism continued to make inroads into evangelicalism it would at some point recognize that a subordinationist christology would be problematic for egalitarians. And when they did, they would alter a more central doctrine. Now, my memory may not be very good right now (because I’m taking some awesome heavy-duty drugs for my neck!), but I recall Gilbert Bilezikian publishing an article in JETS in 1997 entitled something like ‘theological bungee-jumping.’ It was, in my view, a poorly argued piece for functional equality between the Father and Son. Here’s my point: if it’s possible that the Godhead can have functional subordination without ontological subordination, then it may well be both possible that that is the case and even intended to be a model for men and women.
At the same time, I take it that there are some legitimate grievances that women have had in complementarian churches and these need to be listened to. But while complementarians who are firm in their convictions may be unwilling to change how they do church on a theological level, they can and should think about what attitude they are conveying. I am reminded of texts such as Eph 5.25 (husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church) and 1 Peter 3.7 (husbands, … treat your wives with consideration as the weaker partners, and show them honor as fellow heirs of the grace of life). That text is actually out of place in 1 Peter; that is, it does not fit into the flow of the argument. Peter took a sidestep to address a problem in the churches, I believe. I think he’s saying that if Christian husbands don’t treat their wives as ontological equals, with all the respect that they would show the very best of men, then their prayers are not answered. Anything less is not fully Christian.
Cheryl Schatz on 08 Nov 2008 at 12:42 am #
Dr. Wallace.
Your words are certainly mixed with grace as the scriptures instruct us and honestly I do not come across many complementarians who have been as gracious as you. I am not saying they are not out there, I just have had way too many who have been quick to damn me to hell or call me a heretic for believing differently on a secondary issue of faith. This saddens me greatly since all of us have something that we can teach each other and those who alienate members of the body of Christ like this must hurt Jesus terribly.
As far as the Trinity goes, when I was a complementarian I believed that Jesus was equal in authority to the Father in the eternality of the Trinity. The incarnation is another matter.
I am glad that you mentioned the Trinity. I just finished editing and producing a 2 DVD set on this issue which goes through the scriptures to prove the biblical revelation of who Jesus is in his place in the Trinity. A couple of preview clips are on youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLe-qF2nptA
I believe that this is a very important matter, something that should concern all of us. I was deeply dismayed to hear those who teach on the eternal subordination of Jesus taking this down the road of taking away Jesus’ authority to answer prayer. You will hear the quote for yourself in the clip.
The question remains what does the Old Testament say about an eternal subordination and what does Eternity Future look like within the revelation of 1 Cor. 15:28? I would be honored to send you out a copy of the DVD set if you would be willing to look at the evidence and test it by the scriptures. If you are willing to do that, please contact me by email. My email address is mmoutreach (AT) gmail (DOT) com
I also really appreciate the care for others that you clearly display and your willingness to admit that not everything may be set in stone for you. I have a copy of your New Testament Syntax and I now can attach an attitude of a real live person to it. That is such a blessing to me!
Dan Wallace on 08 Nov 2008 at 2:28 am #
Cheryl, thank you for your excellent response! Open and honest dialogue with believers of different persuasions is rare these days, but you are a superb model for it.
To all readers of this thread: the author of the CBMW piece has modified what he wrote in light of my comments. I have not seen it, but I appreciate what he did. I thought you all should know.
minnowspeaks on 08 Nov 2008 at 5:49 am #
You wrote: “We must never treat any member of the body of Christ as a second-class citizen. I’m grieved that many complementarians have done just that. But it’s not essential to complementarianism. ”
I simply do not understand the concept of unequal but not second-class. From my experience second-class is inherent in the idea of unequal.
You wrote: “I know many, many complementarians who have lived out their beliefs the right way so that the women in their lives are fully respected, treated with dignity, granted all the freedoms that they believe that women should have, etc.”
As a woman who has wrestled with this issue my entire adult life (30 plus years) I have come to believe that it is impossible to be fully respected by a man who believes it is his right (role, job, duty) to grant me freedoms I do not otherwise have solely because I am a woman and he is not.
You wrote: “And I have known many egalitarians who have treated women very badly. The worst culprits are egalitarian women themselves, believe it or not!”
I do not doubt that people who claim to hold an egalitarian position have sinned in how they relate to other people (including women) but to imply that their egalitarian position is responsible cannot be defended.
Valdimir on 08 Nov 2008 at 9:35 am #
Dr. Wallace,
Thanks for your response and your further elaboration on your practical and logical lens adjustment on this issue.
I also want to thank you and your team for your selfless efforts to preserve the Christian biblical textual tradition at CSNTM. Your neck injury deserves hazard pay – perhaps the wifey can provide.
As a complementarian (as if I need this nomenclature to understand the social roles of men and women and children in the Church), it is invariably useful as God has seen fit not to overburden either sex with undue cares.
Besides, within the Church structure, the teaching role of women is not nullified, but rather outlined and clearly defined as existing between other women and children.
It should also be highlighted that the male role in teaching within the Church carries with it an almost immeasurable responsibility before God. So too, the role of the husband within the family nucleus.
Again thanks and Godspeed.
Vladimir
Don Johnson on 08 Nov 2008 at 10:37 am #
Daniel,
I recommend Cheryl’s Trinity DVD set. It is jam packed with much to think about. She also has another DVD on Women in Ministry that is very insightful.
I refer to your Beyond Basics book regularly.
I appreciate your faith position, my term for it for me is a bull’s eye, there is a non-negotiable core, but there are also many things where we are to at worst “agree to disagree”. For these latter things, just because we might disagree does not mean the other is “not us” on the core things; to divide on the non-core issues harms the body of Christ.
Don Johnson
Wayne Leman on 08 Nov 2008 at 11:24 am #
I have periodically interacted with one of the bloggers at Gender Blog. I often request that they open their comments to the public. But they choose not to, perhaps wisely since flame wars so easily develop over issues some people hold so passionately. We take a different approach at the Complegalitarian blog”>, believing that open dialogue is important, yes, even a way that we can demonstrate that we are His disciples by showing love for each other (even when we disagree). We do moderate all comments now, after a number of ugly cycles of unhealthy dialogue.
It’s time that conservative evangelicals stop demonizing each other, even in the cause of upholding truth they believe are so clearly taught in the Bible. There is no compromise when we are “speaking the truth in love”.
Dan, I wish you well in your recovery.
Lisa R on 08 Nov 2008 at 12:23 pm #
Minnow said
“I simply do not understand the concept of unequal but not second-class. From my experience second-class is inherent in the idea of unequal.”
Thankfully we look through the lens of scripture for the ideal rather than through the lens of experience, which can taint the picture every time, especially considering that its brushstrokes are created by flawed and fallen humans aiming at self-significance.
Dr. Wallace, I think the Trinitarian model presents such a beautiful picture of orderly submission and mutual significance and is an excellent replica for our earthly ontological unity but separate functionality. Can you imagine Jesus or the Holy Spirit feeling inferior given their respective roles within the Godhead? As a woman and a leader in training, I can certainly emphasize with the egalitarian position. But for me, this divine model, in consideration of mandates of Scripture, serves as a reminder that none are second class citizens or insignificant within the body of Christ.
Lisa R on 08 Nov 2008 at 12:36 pm #
Oh and I’m glad to see that you are up to these tasks, even in a drug-induced stupor
Cheryl Schatz on 08 Nov 2008 at 3:38 pm #
Dr. Wallace,
I skimmed through CBMW’s piece and didn’t see any changes. Maybe I need to go over it again because I must have missed something.
Lisa,
The problem with seeing the eternality of the Trinity from the lens of the incarnation is that we put the emphasis on the voluntary humility of Christ and not on the eternal nature of the Trinity. I highly recommend focusing on the Old Testament to see in the interactions of the persons of the Trinity and their level of authority. Is there a commanding and submitting relationship highlighted in the Old Testament? I think that many will be surprised at the tremendous authority that the pre-incarnate Christ reveals by his appearance in the Old Testament that we have not focused on. This is the key to understanding the Trinity.
This is the reason why we felt it very important to give the entire view of the Trinity that has not been shown to us outside the limited view that so many have focused on entirely from the time of the incarnation. “The Trinity Eternity Past to Eternity Future” DVD challenges us to see God’s view of himself before the incarnation. I believe it will cause us to give back the equal honor to Jesus our Savior that he deserves. Jesus is the one who tells us that we must honor him in the same way that we honor the Father. It is not possible to honor Jesus too much or honor the Father too much. They deserve the highest honor that we can give and equal honor is due.
If we can help even one person to see the Majesty of God in his united authority and honor, then we are honored to be of service to the body of Christ.
Dan Wallace on 08 Nov 2008 at 9:47 pm #
Wayne–I love that name ‘complegalitarian’! And the attitude you are asking us all to show is desperately needed. I would pray that both sides of the issue will recognize that at least some in the opposite camp have well-thought-out convictions and that such folks should not be vilified. As one of my professors used to say years ago, “The Christian army is the only army in the world that shoots its wounded.” He could have been describing this very issue. I am sure that Christ is grieved deeply when he sees our disunity and infighting.
I’d like to add one other comment: there are belligerent complementarians and belligerent egalitarians. And those people don’t realize is that the rest of us don’t want to have anything to do with them–not because of their position but because of their attitude. What they think is coming across as a reflection of their own pain is often rebellion or triumphalism. Each of us needs to look at our own hearts to make sure that we are not contributing to the problem.
minnowspeaks on 09 Nov 2008 at 1:23 am #
Lisa R wrote: “Thankfully we look through the lens of scripture for the ideal rather than through the lens of experience, which can taint the picture every time, especially considering that its brushstrokes are created by flawed and fallen humans aiming at self-significance.”
I believe that we all look through the lens of experience and to suggest otherwise is simply not recognizing the difference between being human and being divine. My experience allows me to see the various roles women have had in scripture–judge, apostle, elder, prophet–and wonder if those passages that have been so often used to deny women equality might legitimately be translated differently then our English versions have typically translated them (and the male-dominated Church typically interprets them). I have found some compelling evidence to support such an argument so you see, I too am thankful we can look through the lens of scripture for the ideal.
Dan–I hope I do not come across as one of the blind, belligerent eglatarians you referred to in you latest comment.
Tim with a Latin "i" on 09 Nov 2008 at 12:14 pm #
Man, I wish I had maybe weighed in earlier as the conversation here is great! I don’t know where most of you are writing from, but here in Denton, TX, about 45 minutes away from Irving, TX we recently had a big upset about this egalitarian topic at one of the larger Bible churches in Irving… It even made the paper! That to me says that we got TOO upset over it (although you can’t hide everything from the press) but now, we have shown the world fighting between us on a non-essential doctrine of Christianity! You should be able to find the article at the Dallas Morning News website. Dr. Wallace, you may remember that because it was only a few months ago and Dallas Theological was mentioned as having a break with that particular church if I remember correctly.
ANYWAYS, all that to say that I think the issue is important, but not central. I don’t think someone would go to hell because they think a woman can teach in the church. However, I do think as Christians we should strive to become as close to scripture in our doctrine as possible and I think it is VERY difficult to get around the theological teaching of the new testament. It says very clearly that women should not teach or have a place of authority over a man. I observe that this relationship is not only similar to that example of the Holy Spirit, but also to that of marriage. Husbands are leaders in the family not because men are better, smarter, or more spiritual; but merely because God appointed us to that position. I think the same is true here. God has His reasons for making said doctrine, but to me is not clear why in scripture (other than that the woman was deceived first) why God did it that way. I would say it is as open ended as predestination for the WHY God made it the way He did. He made it that way because He is the creator and He can and did. SO, I think we need to be carefull to obey what the scripture SAYS and not what we would like the scripture to say based on what we think is fair or culturally acceptable. I know its a touchy subject and I’ll probably take a beating because I think this view is not popular, but I’m stickin to the CLEAR teaching in the NT. Dr. Wallace, I think you and I see eye to eye on our perspectives from what I have read, and also enjoy your Greek syntax book! Oh how I have loved reading it (in 150 page chunks!) for class at the Missionary Training Institute!
Lisa R on 09 Nov 2008 at 8:58 pm #
Hi Tim,
I’m in Dallas also (and at DTS) and yes the public bruhaha was quite disconcerting. Interestingly, I just happened to be at the “questionable” church the Sunday when its pastor announced in the midst of the message a clarification regarding their position and how they are NOT taking an egalitarian position, which was the charge levied against them by the pastor of another well known church because they had allowed a woman to preach the Sunday message. Unfortunately, I think the media did well, what the media does best and amplify the negative. But I think what was really neat, which is what this announcement was about, is that the 2 got together on a reconcilitory note in order for there to be harmony, even though they disagree on a “secondary issue” as he put it. Apparently they are friends and he let the congregation know that he has nothing but love for the man, had nothing but good things to say about him.
Also, while I do hold to a complementarian position, I think we have to be careful with charging egalitarians with scriptural disintegrity. Most egalitarians are trying to be true to scripture also and perhaps employing a different hermeneutic that will allow for equal functionality between genders. I think not being honest to scripture can also describe those holding to a complementarian position that utilize that privilege for selfish and unloving gain, resulting in mistreatment and abuse.
Dan Wallace on 09 Nov 2008 at 9:03 pm #
Lisa, in other words you’re saying that Christians can sometimes exercise a hermeneutic of selfishness and sin—one that distorts scripture but allows them to maintain their stance? I agree. And I think that you’ve touched on a very important issue: sin taints our perspective. This is another reason why I can work with believers who have the right attitude even if we don’t see eye to eye on our interpretation of key texts. Nothing against truth, this is instead an acknowledgment that we are all finite and fallible and that the badge of being a Christian is how we relate to each other. Thanks for your insights.
Sue on 09 Nov 2008 at 9:58 pm #
Dan,
I noted that you mention the “exegetical gymnastics” of egalitarians. And yet, I have been surprised, in photographing the Pagnini Beza Bible and Erasmus, that egalitarians are simply returning to the pre Reformation translations. I have carefully looked at how these differ from Jerome and the Greek, as well as how Tyndale and Luther once again differed from their source text.
For 1500 years, 1 Tim. 2:12 clearly said that a woman must neither teach nor dominate a man. Christian leaders are also never to dominate the flock. Authentein is simply not allowed for men or women. This was the understanding of 1 Tim. 2:12 for 1500 years. There is no lexical evidence contemporary or in any way close to the NT for authentein to mean “have authority.” I think that you are aware of this. I wonder if you make others aware that there is only contextual and speculative evidence.
Why would anyone mention “exegetical gymnastics” for those who interpret 1 Tim. 2:12 as neither teach nor dominate? It is the norm.
I would suggest, on the other hand, that many have noted that your article on Junia included as the one main piece of evidence a quote that was not in any way a parallel with Rom. 16:7. I have puzzled for many years now over this exegetical oddity.
In fact, it was discovering the traditional and time honoured translations for Rom. 16:2 and 1 Tim. 2:12, those in the KJV, and understanding that all evidence supported these interpretations, which clearly pointed out to me that the complementarian position, as supported by Rom. 16:7 and 2 Tim. 2;12 is unusual and requires much gymnastic ability.
I am unable as a scholar of Greek to give any kind of acquiescence to the use of evidence in either the studies on authentein or Junia. From an academic standpoint no one has defended the notion that authentein means “to have authority” or that episemos en means “well known to.” These two points have no academic support nor has anyone suggested that articles will be written to support these notions.
Dan Wallace on 09 Nov 2008 at 10:22 pm #
Sue, this is not the forum for getting into detailed exegesis over these issues. Suffice it to say that we will have to disagree over whether there is evidence that authentein means ‘have authority’ or that episemons en means ‘well known to.’ But in the least I don’t think that it’s appropriate to say that there is zero academic support for these views. That kind of dogmatic statement isn’t particularly serviceable for the discussion, nor especially for the attitude that we are attempting to inculcate.
Sue on 09 Nov 2008 at 10:25 pm #
I mistyped Romans 16:2 for Romans 16:7.
I recognize that throughout church history women have not been allowed to preach or teach from the pulpit. However, I think we are all aware that the interpretation of verses pertaining to women are not stable.
Therefore, I was forced to come to the conclusion that the prohibition on female leadership was not based on scriptural interpretation which has shifted significantly, but on the static goals of the doctors of the church.
Sue on 09 Nov 2008 at 10:41 pm #
Dan,
I regret that I missed your reply by seconds. I noticed that you wrote,
“For me at least, to read these passages in an egalitarian way is to do some exegetical gymnastics in which one twists and turns the text to conform it to their views.”
However, I do think it is worth pointing out that this is what was done with reference to Junia. We do know that Chrysostom accepted Junia as a female apostle as does the 19th century Greek Vamva version of the NT.
In fact, there is no record of any Greek author ever doubting that Junia was a female apostle. I think it needs to be pointed out that egalitarians are in excellent company here and do not twist this scripture, whereas one could easily get the feeling that those who support “well known to” have done something unusual.
On authentein, Andreas Kostenberger has already admitted that there is no lexical evidence, so I do not find my statement to be in any way inappropriate. I feel that by falling in line with his work I demonstrate that I am very open to complementarian scholarship.
I do note, however, that Kostenberger then deduces that authentein must have a positive meaning since didaskein always has a positive meaning in the pastoral epistles. However, in Titus, didaskein is used negatively and so the logical argumentation which Kostenberger offers is shown to be without foundation.
In this way, I discovered that Jerome had already come to the conclusion that authentein meant dominari, something that Adam did to Eve after the fall. I simply want to know that a woman who reads the Bible through the lens of history can be accepted as one who is not such a great gymnast after all. In fact, I am a downright lousy gymnast!
minnowspeaks on 10 Nov 2008 at 8:12 am #
@Dan–
“Sue, this is not the forum for getting into detailed exegesis over these issues.”
So the complimentarian is a studied point of view and not just the opinions of overly controlling men–We’ll take your word for it.
The eglatarian is a studied point of view and not just the opinions of wishful thinking women–take our word for it. We can all agree to disagree which is a healthy point of view, especially for a minor issue.
Sorry the CBMW made you out to be more harshly, stanchly complimentarian then you think of yourself as being but we’re glad they did a little adjusting after you used this forum to wage your complaint since they wouldn’t let you use theirs. Now at least there isn’t as much division on a minor point of a minor issue.
I think I come across more attitudinal when I write than I do face to face but you’ll probably need to ask my complimentarian husband or pastor to be sure.
Susan on 10 Nov 2008 at 11:34 am #
minnowspeaks, Your words are laced with cynicism. I will say that that is one of the most rude and disrespectful responses I have seen someone post toward a scholar here. If you had any idea how genuinely kind and compassionate this man is toward women…. especially women who are abused under the guise of a complimentarian point of view, you would not have said what you did.
You may have issues with your husband, but believe me when I say that you have chosen the WRONG man to vent them on.
Furthermore, how would you feel if someone twisted words of yours in a way which totally misrepresented you, and made you out to be harsh and uncompassionate. Dan is a man who is deeply devoted to God’s word, and the faithful exegesis of it. Can’t you tell from reading his comments that he has had a desire to see 1 Tim. 2:12 as you see it….. and I’m sure he has wrestled greatly with this text. But in the end, as a textual critic he must remain where he is convicted that he is being most accurate and faithful to the Greek….. and to God’s intended meaning. Don’t be judgmental toward him in this. Sometimes I see equalitarians being so quick to assume that men who hold to the complimentarian view want to keep women under the control of men. I can assure you, nothing could be further from the truth where this scholar is concerned.
I truly hope that you will apologize to Dr. Wallace, who would be the first person to stand between you and any man who would seek to dominate you inappropriately. He treats women with utter respect and kindness.
Sue on 10 Nov 2008 at 4:32 pm #
Susan,
I did not understand Minnow this way. What I understand is that there is a suggestion that one must twist and turn the text to come to an egalitarian position. However, facts are diverse.
For 2000 years Junia has been considered an apostle by native speakers of the Greek language. On what basis do American complementarian scholars introduce the notion that she is not?
So, I think we need to humbly come together and acknowledge that among egalitarians are those like myself, who as a student of the text, cannot agree to the novel notion that Junia was only “well-known to” the apostles. As I mentioned, the one piece of evidence which was supposed to be a close parallel, was not. There is, as of the present date, no published article or argued defense of the notion that Junia was only well-known to the apostles. Unless someone informs me otherwise, this is a statement of fact, not speculation.
Likewise with authentein, Dr. Wallace confirmed last year, in a discussion with me, his dependence on Tyndale for “to exercise/use authority.” I refer to Chrysostom, Jerome, KJV, Luther, etc. to confirm the traditional meaning of authentein, which is to “be the lord of/lord it over.”
The only three pieces of evidence for authentein contemporary with the NT are as follows,
- BGU 1208 – to compel
- Tetrabiblos – to control
- Hypolytus – to be the master of (in association with the random violence of the end times)
If both complementarians and egalitarians could openly acknowldge these facts, then we could see how egalitarianimsm is derived from the same original text without egalitarians twisting and turning the text. This would heal a breach in the church.
So, I am hoping that complementarians would engage in dialogue with egalitarians without involving such phrases as “exegetical gymnastics” and “twisting and turning” up front before the dialogue has even opened.
I am sure that godly leaders would welcome the opportunity to explore a common understanding of the underlying lexical units in the text. Although I recognize that this is only one piece of the exegetical task, it is still an important piece. Is the meaning chosen by the exegete within the range of accepted possible meanings for a certain lexical item according to the evidence which we now have available?
minnowspeaks on 10 Nov 2008 at 5:35 pm #
Susan–I said what I said in all sincerity, truly. When Dr. Wallace told Sue it was not the place to go into detailed exegesis the only things we were left with were undocumented opinions. That being the case, Dr. Wallace and I (Complimentarians and Eglatarians) should agree to disagree. And we should do so without the judgmental baggage of labeling one side as overly controling and the other side as wishful thinking (cynical, sexist, belligerent, etc.), which by the way too often happens with this particular topic. We have voiced our differing opinions. Repeating them repeatedly will not change the other person’s point of view. Expressing them once may offer a new comer to the conversation a more ballanced discussion but endless repetition achieves no purpose. My “sorry the CBMW” comment was an attempt to get back to the actual point of this post (that Dr. Wallace’s position was misrepresented), acknowledge his statement that they made an adjustment (comment # 18), and bow out of the conversation. I acknowledge my sarcasm when I called it a “minor” point of a minor issue. Dr. Wallace, Susan, I apologize for that offense. I guess minor is in the eye of the beholder. Dr. Wallace did not think it minor that his position was misrepresented. I do not think it minor exactly that parts of scripture continue to be translated and interpreted to ignore the examples within other parts of scripture of women fulfilling the same roles as men (roles many complementarians say women should not have in the Church). Please know I am not saying a person’s stand on this issue affects his or her salvation. I am saying it has an ongoing impact on the health of the Church and our invluence in a dying world.
Sharing that I sit under a complementarian pastor and live with a complimentarian husband was not intended to give you ammunition. I mentioned it only to admit that my self-assessment may not always be accurate and these two men would be the most likely to know when I have missed the mark.
Finally, the degree of kindness a master showed his slave rarely quelled the slave’s desire for freedom. I have no doubts that Dr. Wallace is kind. I do not believe I have accused him of being otherwise.
Susan on 10 Nov 2008 at 6:03 pm #
Minnow, sorry if I misread your tone. Thanks for your response. I certainly was not making mention of your husband as ‘ammunition’ . I can’t interact more… got to run!
Dan Wallace on 10 Nov 2008 at 6:41 pm #
Sue, you continue to use this thread as a bully pulpit, which I’ve already noted is inappropriate. You continue to speak dogmatically as though all the facts were on your side, when that is simply not the case. I will mention but one example: “with authentein, Dr. Wallace confirmed last year, in a discussion with me, his dependence on Tyndale for “to exercise/use authority.” If this is an example of simply stating the facts, then I would have to question all your other evidence. I have never relied on Tyndale for the meaning of authentein.
At bottom, there are defensible reasons for egalitarianism and defensible reasons for complementarianism. What I was most interested in in this thread was to see where we could come together in attitude and acceptance, not where we can try to show how only our view has all the evidence on its side (which is not the case with either view).
Sue on 10 Nov 2008 at 7:48 pm #
Dan,
I must apologize about the comment on Tyndale since I cannot find that discussion on the internet at the moment. Let me rephrase this.
You write,
“(Fee is here following the AV’s rendering “usurp authority” almost as though it had some ancient basis. In reality, the AV translators knew Latin better than they knew Greek and the bilingual text they used to prepare the NT was essentially Erasmus’ text [Beza’s edition]. Erasmus published the first Greek NT [Novum Instrumentum, 1516; later called Textus Receptus] in order to defend his revised Latin translation. And since the meaning of aujqentevw had changed after Jerome translated the Vulgate, Erasmus used a different Latin verb to communicate the idea of “usurp authority.”)”
So, I believe in our discussion there was a mention of the fact that Tyndale used “to have authority” and the translators of the AV used “usurp authority.”
The question then becomes whether Tyndale or the KJV translators had a better background in Greek. You suggest that the KJV translators knew Latin better than Greek. So, the question becomes, did Tyndale know Greek better than Jerome? How did Tyndale arrive at “have authority?” Is there supporting evidence for this choice?
I think it is important for readers to know that the reason other evidence is not provided for authentein is because it does not exist. I do not think that it is belligerent or bullying of me to point out a simple fact. This fact is confirmed by Andreas Kostenberger. He writes,
“Baldwin’s study shows that authentein was an exceedingly rare word in NT times that occurs in the NT only in 1 Tim 2:12 and elsewhere only once or twice prior to the writing of 1 Timothy.”
In actual fact, only one of Baldwin’s two references is applicable, BGU 1208, and this is the one that is labeled by Baldwin as “compel.” I think Kostenberger recognizes this. So, at the start of current research on authentein, “compel” is the only option.
Next, Kostenberger writes,
“The fact that lexical study in this case, owing to the limited data, of necessity remains inconclusive leads naturally to the next chapter in the book, where I consider the sentence structure of 1 Tim 2:12. Specifically, I proceed from the known to the unknown. The first word linked by the Greek coordinating conjunction oude (“or”) is the word “teach,” didaskein, which is frequently used in the Pastoral Epistles and virtually always has a positive connotation,”
However, this is negated by Titus 1:11,
“They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.”
Didaskein is used in the pastoral epistles with a negative connotation.
Both complementarians and egalitarians are dependent on these facts, that
- authentein typically means to control or compel
- didaskein can possibly have a negative connotation
- authentein and didaskein are either both negative or positive
I would like to be faithful to the evidence as it is provided by complementarian scholars.
In our western tradition of scripture, authentein has been translated by Jerome as “dominari,” by Wycliff as “have lordship on”, by Luther as “Herr sei”, by Erasmus as “authoritatem usurpare”, by Tyndale as “to have authority over” and by the translators of the Bishops and KJV as “usurp authority.”
This was previously discussed at some time.
If there is evidence earlier than Tyndale that authentein means “to have authority” I have not seen it. Excuse me if I have jumped to false conclusions. I would be happy to be pointed to additional evidence.
I do not know how to resolve the present misunderstanding without being open about the evidence on authentein.
Sue on 10 Nov 2008 at 7:54 pm #
One of the things that saddens me so much is the introduction into this dialogue of the very negative vocabulary of “bullying” “belligerence” “rebellion” and “twisting and turning.”
I find it sad that someone else has set themselves up to judge the motives of others, rather than leave this to the Lord of us all.
Dan Wallace on 10 Nov 2008 at 9:45 pm #
Sue, I haven’t set myself up as the judge of your motives; but I have repeatedly asked you to focus on attitude, not evidence. Again, the reason for this is that blog threads are not the place to flesh out all the evidence of one’s position. And since I refuse to do what you’ve done, you have used the occasion to bring in snippets of evidence that the average person can’t sift through.
Your quotation of my mention of Tyndale is a case in point. You said you couldn’t find the proof that I relied on Tyndale (because it doesn’t exist). But when you quoted me, you said, “So, I believe in our discussion there was a mention of the fact that Tyndale used ‘to have authority’ and the translators of the AV used ‘usurp authority.’” Yes, of course. But that is not the same thing as saying that my source for the meaning of authentein was Tyndale.
What I would like to offer you is this: feel free to point people to your website and all your arguments elsewhere. Do so in this thread. But please stop bringing up dogmatic statements about evidence when you know that at least several decent scholars would strongly dispute your points. It’s the dogma that I am rejecting and it’s the bully pulpit (I never said ‘bullying’ nor has anyone else except you–and bully pulpit is something quite different) that you have used that I have asked you repeatedly to refrain from using. Frankly, that kind of dogma is the very reason why many complementarians will not consider egalitarianism. (And, on the other side, it’s the very reason why many egalitarians will not consider complementarianism.)
I have been very encouraged by Cheryl’s comments and am in fact intrigued by the evidence that she has amassed. She’s a good model for all of us to follow.
Sue on 10 Nov 2008 at 10:01 pm #
I admit that I am completely unfamiliar with the term “bully pulpit.” It sounded to me like assessing motives. However, I find it is this.
“A bully pulpit is a public office of sufficiently high rank that provides the holder with an opportunity to speak out and be listened to on any matter.”
I did not know this. I have learned something here. I has not heard this term before. However, I would point out that I have no office and no rank whatsoever. My website makes this clear. I have no other influence than whether or not what I cite is accurate. That is all I can offer.
You write,
“when you know that at least several decent scholars would strongly dispute your points.”
I don’t know this. I would be interested to know if this were true.
I respect Cheryl’s work and find that it is more in line with yours, that is, based on the use of contextual evidence. But, I would like to see more recognition that the lexical evidence is as Kostenberger states. Except that he does not recognize Titus 1:11.
You write,
“I’m not saying that those who take an egalitarian position on this passage are willing to twist the scriptures! But I am saying that I think they are, in effect, probably doing this just the same.”
You are, in effect, saying that you think that egalitarians are probably twisting scripture. You speak with authority and people are likely to believe you. But what is the basis for these words?
I deeply regret that there seems to be a misunderstanding. I would simply like others to recognize that there is no basis for saying that egalitarians twist the scriptures. It saddens me that you say this without evidence.
Dan Wallace on 10 Nov 2008 at 10:09 pm #
Sue, thanks for the response. When I said that you were using this thread for a bully pulpit, I meant that you were using it to speak dogmatically about your own views when that was inappropriate in this venue. You may say that you have no authority, but you have spoken so dogmatically about your views that you certainly act authoritatively.
You want to pull me into a discussion of the evidence. I refuse to do that because this is not the venue, as I’ve repeatedly stated. I have mentioned Doug Moo’s articles as some of the best treatment on 1 Tim 2.12 I’ve seen; instead of constantly making absolute statements, can you provide people with a source that they can turn to where they can find all the evidence that you mention?
I will leave with this one note: Jerome did not use the word ‘dominari’ (no such word in Latin); he used ‘dominare.’ Look it up in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, definition 1.
Sue on 10 Nov 2008 at 10:58 pm #
I am confused. Moo writes,
1) “In the pastoral epistles, teaching always has this restricted sense of authoritative doctrinal instruction.”
I don’t see how this is supported by the evidence.
2) “Second, the occurrences of this word—the verb—that are closest in time and nature to 1 Timothy mean “have authority over” or “dominate” (in the neutral sense of “have dominion over,” not in the negative sense “lord it over”)”
But the meanings found in Baldwin’s study as cited in Ev. Feminism and Biblical truth are simply,
1) Tetrabiblos – to control or dominate
2) BGU 1208 – to compel or influence
3) Hippolytus – lord it over (translation here) in context of end times violence. This passage has been retranslated to include the phrase “to have authority” but that was done after the fact, in order to create an occurrence with “to have authority.” The original translation had “to lord it over” and is very violent. Here it is.
“Wherefore all shall walk after their own will. And the children will lay hands on their parents. The wife will give up her own husband to death, and the husband will bring his own wife to judgment like a criminal. Masters will lord it over their servants savagely, and servants will assume an unruly demeanour toward their masters. None will reverence the grey hairs of the elderly, and none will have pity upon the comeliness of the youthful. The temples of God will be like houses, and there will be overturnings of the churches everywhere.The Scriptures will be despised, and everywhere they will sing the songs of the adversary. Fornications, and adulteries, and perjuries will fill the land;”
I admit that it should say “savage masters will lord it over their servants.” But I am concerned that this is a violent and vicious climate, a view of the anarchic end times. It is not a context which suggests that authentein means “to have authority” in a positive way or as church leadership. This is the one major piece of evidence for “to have authority.”
Perhaps I have misunderstood and there is other evidence, but no one has ever published any.
I fail to see where Moo critiques Knight’s study and demonstrates that the Philodemus fragment, previously the one apparently solid support for “to have authority,” is not in any way evidence for this.
The best article on this is by Linda Belleville in Dsicovering Biblical Equality ed. Pierce and Groothuis.
I cited earlier from Andreas Kostenberger here.
I am an honest person, who is much saddened by the fact that I feel I am asking important questions as a woman, and men simply don’t answer, even when they say they will.
For example, it has been shown that the evidence mentioned concerning Junia is not a “close parallel” and I believe that someone indicated to me that there would be a further response to this. But none has been forthcoming two years later.
However, Bibles continue to contain the phrase “well-known to” the apostles.
I plead with people to open up the evidence to me. I feel that this concerns women intimately. I am a woman.
Sue on 10 Nov 2008 at 11:10 pm #
On “dominare,” I would like to ask you what form that is. It does not show up in Lewis and Short on the Perseus site. I can only find “dominor” with the infinitive “dominari” as is found in the Vulgate.
docere autem mulieri non permitto neque dominari in virum sed esse in silentio
Does this word appear elsewhere as “dominare?”
Sue on 10 Nov 2008 at 11:25 pm #
I cited Robert Weber’s Biblia Sacra Iuxta Vulgatam Versionem for “dominari.”
Dan Wallace on 11 Nov 2008 at 12:17 am #
Sue, I stand corrected; the form in 1 Tim 2.12 is ‘dominari.’ The spelling with the ‘e’ is an infinitive, however.
You continue to use this thread as a bully pulpit, but I’ve asked you for some specifics which you refuse to give. Please indicate a website that readers can go to to see your arguments in full. This is not the place for that discussion. Why aren’t you hearing that?
C Michael Patton on 11 Nov 2008 at 12:21 am #
Sue, we already had this conversation before. I think that it has run its course. Thanks so much for hanging with us though!
bethyada on 11 Nov 2008 at 2:45 am #
Do I weigh in? Blog owners set the rules for their blog. I think this belongs in the thread without diverting to the theological answer.
Dan I’m not saying that those who take an egalitarian position on this passage are willing to twist the scriptures! But I am saying that I think they are, in effect, probably doing this just the same.
Sue You are, in effect, saying that you think that egalitarians are probably twisting scripture. You speak with authority and people are likely to believe you. But what is the basis for these words?
I am not certain what the issue is here?
Most people believe what they think is true, otherwise they would not hold it and would change their mind to what they think is true. Dan speaks with authority but others who disagree with him also speak with their own authority.
Further, this is not saying that they intentionally twist the Scripture, rather that because Dan currently holds the view he does, and because he doesn’t think the passage is ambiguous (ie. open to more than one legitimate meaning) then of course he is going to think those holding a contrary view are twisting the meaning, even if they are sincere.
An example where Dan and I may disagree (a little bold on my behalf given he speaks Greek and I don’t!
)
I think people twist the meaning of Hebrews 6 to deny falling away from the faith. My opponents are not willing to twist Scripture but in practice I think they are twisting it.
And there may be counter examples against me.
(I do think people in some areas intentionally distort Scripture. I have more time for those who deny the Bible is inerrant, than those who claim it is but make false claims)
Sue on 11 Nov 2008 at 3:13 am #
I did link to my website under my name. I am sorry that it appears that I was not hearing you. I did the usual internet thing in order to respond to you. I am not sure what specifics I have refused to give.
I don’t have all this assembled in one place but I have written about authentein. If you put authentein in the search window in the upper left hand corner you should get my posts on authentein.
I don’t publish on this topic since my job in education and assistive technology requires most of my dedicated time.
I do think that if you check you will find that dominare is not the infinitive. I don’t mean to be stubborn and obstinate about this, but I just think that it would benefit someone to know that dominari is the infinitive of dominor, since it is a vital part of this discussion. I think then next time you will know that dominari is the infiinitive form and this is what Jerome used.
I do not have the dictionary that you cited so I don’t know how this misunderstanding has arisen. Thank you for your patience. I pray that some day a woman will be worthy of having her questions answered. Till then.
Sue on 11 Nov 2008 at 4:01 am #
I think on reflection that “dominare” is Italian. That might be why it would seem familiar. Peace.
Dan Wallace on 11 Nov 2008 at 4:21 am #
Sue, please forgive me for not noticing where you mentioned your website. I still can’t find it as I go back through the thread. Can you please list it again? Of course, I am heavily sedated so I may not be seeing things right in front of my nose!
That may explain as well why I didn’t recognize dominari as an infinitive. My classical Latin texts (I have but one Latin grammar on the Vulgate, and it’s awfully brief) list all four conjugations of the present active infinitive as ending in -e. For example, the first conjugation of laudo has laudare as the infinitive. Now, I can’t explain why the form dominari would be used in 1 Tim 2.12, since the Vulgate clearly is using it as an infinitive (as it is dependent on permitto). But the form dominare occurs in Judges 8.22 and Ps 109.2. In Judges 8.22, it’s an imperative. Perhaps someone who is not on pain killers can solve this mystery for us.
Vladimir on 11 Nov 2008 at 10:04 am #
Sue,
Dominari is the deponent infinitive form of dominor. It’s semantic range is the same as domino, – are.
Dominare can be an imperative form as well, but this makes little sense in the mentioned context.
Vladimir
Sue on 11 Nov 2008 at 11:41 am #
Vladimir,
Thanks for that. I started with the dominor and was not able to derive dominare as an infinitive but only as the imperative.
Dan,
Here is my website Suzanne’s Bookshelf.
I had put a link to this website with my name “Sue” when I signed in to comment here. I admit that this is not obvious if one is not expecting it.
Perhaps the most compelling evidence on authentein is Jerome’s translation. He uses dominor. Here are two other verses which express the same thought.
Gen. 3:16
sub viri potestate eris et ipse dominabitur tui
“and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.” DR
1 Peter 3:5
neque ut dominantes in cleris sed formae facti gregi et ex animo
“Neither as lording it over the clergy but being made a pattern of the flock from the heart.” DR
This is not an exegesis of the text. However, this provides some insight into how Jerome used the word dominor. It was a part of the curse that a man would dominate his wife. This is not part of creation.
It is not appropriate either for a leader in the church to dominate over the clergy.
From these two examples, we see that a man must not dominate his wife, (as Chrysostom later confirms) nor should a church leader dominate the clergy.
Likewise, a woman must not dominate a man.
I realize that this makes the meaning of 1 Tim. 2:12 dependent on the context. However, it is an honest representation of the meaning.
I do not twist the scriptures. I do not perform gymnastics. I am an honest person who does not understand how one can deduce from 1 Tim. 2:12 that a woman can not have leadership in the church. Neither authentein nor dominor can refer to proper church leadership.
It is to my intense sorrow that I read time and time again that because of this one verse women are excluded from leadership in the church.
I do not seek leadership myself. I am a woman who would like to be ministered to by women in the church.
Susan on 11 Nov 2008 at 1:38 pm #
As probably the least knowledgeable person to enter a comment on this tread, I consider myself a side-lines observer. I just drove home from LAX reflecting on this conversation. My observation is that Dan, whom I have heard referred to as one of the top five textual critics in the world, has a consistently humble posture in many of his conclusions about secondary issues in Scripture. The humility, I’ve come to see here at P&P and elsewhere, is not a facade, but rather it is a stayed posture at the heart level. A posture toward God. I’ve been surprised a number of times to see that Dan resists being dogmatic on such issues as this. He often couches his comments with “I think”, and similar phrases. This has surprised me given His phenomenal knowledge of scripture, down to the most minute detail. Another observation: Dan is incredibly dependent…. on God, in prayerful submission. I envision him often coming to the study of a text, asking God to dispel any false conclusion he might currently hold, and seeking to submit to whatever insight the Holy Spirit might illumine in that day’s study. I was asking myself, while driving, I wonder how often I do that (?). Do I ask God to clear the slate of my mind from all previous false conclusions based on either misunderstanding of my own, a teacher I have heard, or born out of what I want the text to mean….. and ask God to help me grasp His meaning alone. I don’t do that as a habit. That is what I have gained from this discussion…. hopefully I can develop the habit of a more submitted posture toward God’s word. If Dan can readily admit to the limits of his understanding…..even when in discussion with someone very knowledgeable who challenges it…. then certainly I need to have that countenance.
Sorry if I embarrass you Dan. I know you don’t like to be put on a pedestal. I don’t mean to do that. Maybe you could tell us what sort of conversations you have with God as you study the Word. I would be interested, and we can all learn from you in this.
Sue on 11 Nov 2008 at 2:36 pm #
Susan,
Let’s clarify the different levels. There are facts and then there is interpretation and application. I have not said “I think” about the facts because they can be verified rather simply. It is inappropriate in scholarly writing to say “I think” before verifiable and easily confirmable data.
Rather it is the conclusions from that data which must be qualified by “I think” and “perhaps.” I put forward no interpretation or application whatsoever. I draw no conclusions here. It would not be appropriate to do so until others have had the opportunity to confirm the facts. But I would leave this to others. If I were to present an interpretation I would use the phrase “I think.” But likely I would not even go so far.
Some seek to belittle me by calling into question facts which can be verified very easily. Dan repeatedly talks of my “bully pulpit.” I can not deduce any reason for this. It is very hurtful to me to have negative expressions used against me without any justification.
I always think that others will be like me, open to facts and happy to check sources before calling others into question.
Most of what I write can easily be verified by reading the footnotes in Ev. Feminism and Biblical Truth pages 680 or thereabouts. One can google Philodemus fragment of BGU 1208. The various translations of the Bible, such as the Vulgate, are widely available.
Susan on 11 Nov 2008 at 4:32 pm #
Sue, I am honestly surprised that you have addressed me after what I said about Dan. What I said was not intended to point a finger at you. You are defensive in your comments. I don’t doubt that you have made some factual statements. I don’t think that we need to qualify every statement in this discussion with “I think”. I was simply reflecting on some observations I have made of Dan over the past year since I have been a reader of P&P. In all honesty Sue, I don’t pretend to know what your posture of heart is before God. I don’t know you at all.
I’m 100% positive that Dan is not seeking to belittle you by asking you not to use this thread as a bully pulpit. The term does not mean that you are bullying, as you have noted. His point is that you have persisted in trying to instruct and inform other readers of your view… to persuade them to consider it. Dan has asked you not to do this repeatedly, but you have done so anyway. You are using this forum to present your case. Both Michael and Dan have asked you to stop…. to take it elsewhere. In your last posting to me you started in on your evidence. A lot of that I cannot process because I have very little knowledge of church history, and of Greek, so it seems a bit like you aren’t even talking to me, but rather, using every opportunity to advance your views. I don’t have enough background knowledge to absorb, or even want to absorb what you are saying, because I know that I can’t process it with any discernment. I probably speak for many other readers when I say that. Let the curious come to your site.
My comments about Dan were not intended to call you into question. Don’t assume that of me. I was honestly just thinking through what I can learn from him, and how I might apply what he models to my life, because I think I don’t often seek to approach God with complete willingness to lay aside what I want to see in a text. In fact, I have been pondering whether I might be a little resistant to receiving what 1 Tim 2:12 is saying…. to take it at face value (and I know you would contend that it hasn’t been interpreted/ translated correctly by many). I see this as something I need to pray about….. to be willing to submit to God if my attitude has been wrong. And I’m not saying that yours is. Lets just say, I was feeling a twinge of conviction.
Vladimir on 11 Nov 2008 at 4:40 pm #
Sue,
Once when I was in an old European country I had the opportunity to watch a sheepherder leading his sheep down through a grassy raven over a cool stream so they could drink and then on along a path through some woods out of sight.
The sheepherder walked at a leisurely pace while the sheep (probably 100 or so) meandered and wandered at will eating as they went and drinking as they saw fit.
For whatever reason the sheep knew what they were doing, but in accordance with the sheepherder’s stride. I only saw the sheepherder once strike a sheep (for whatever reason) with his oak hard wooden crook! Whap! I could literally hear the air from the sheep’s lungs escape and a moan from it. The blow did not knock the sheep off it’s feet – but it made it pay attention to the sheepherder. Apart from this instance, the only sound from the sheepherder was an occasional call in order to let the sheep know where he was.
It was amazing, the sheep responded, gently bending in his direction, eating grass and drinking water as they leaned toward his leading.
When I read Gen 3:16 I am often reminded of Gen 4:6,7. The same word is found in both passages. I guess the question is who’s mastering who – in whatever capacity?
We can talk about manner and demeanor and carriage and tone and conduct, but all these are applicable in whatever capacity we conduct ourselves – whether men or women, moms or dads, children, teachers, listeners…
As Lord, King, absolute sovereign, is Jesus a tyrant or a benevolent Tsar/Gosudar’?
Vladimir
Abecedaria on 11 Nov 2008 at 4:41 pm #
You are defensive in your comments.
I am sorry. You are right about that. As I said, I do feel hurt and defensive. I won’t deny the truth of this.
Sue (Abecedaria) my other site.
Vladimir,
What is your point. I really don’t know what to make of what you wrote so I won’t guess.
Vladimir on 11 Nov 2008 at 4:54 pm #
Sue,
Sorry. I guess I’m somewhat, no actually, a frustrated artist (not writer) and thought I’d carry on a bit.
The point is that we as Christians in whatever capacity can do things rightly or wrongly.
I think the story above illustrates what responsible leading as well as following entails, defined by our own capacities and stations in life – whether male or female.
Vladimir
Abecedaria on 11 Nov 2008 at 5:19 pm #
Vladimir,
I will tell you what I have done. When my pastor told me that he believed in Grudem and I must too, I read Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth, from cover to cover. (He meant that I must accept the Baldwin study, the kephale study, and the Junia study as cited by Grudem.)
Then I went on the internet and found the original Greek passages that were cited in Baldwin’s study on authentein. I did look at almost all 80 of them.
There are only two pieces of evidence that were considered contemporary in that study. They are
Philodemus
BGU 1208
I put these on the internet. I have emailed and dialogued with many theologians. Many have said that I am rebellious and belligerent. But none have ever said that these occurrences of authenteo support the notion that authenteo means “to have authority.”
I don’t know what to do. No one has ever said that I am not witnessing to the truth. I want the truth.
Do you think that it is unsuitable to my station in life to want the truth? I am sorry. I know you have written a beautiful story but I am too dense to intuit the meaning.
Following for me means to ascertain and follow truth.
Excuse me. I accidentally switched my moniker and forgot to switch it back. Sue.
Lisa R on 11 Nov 2008 at 6:02 pm #
Sue,
I can certainly emphasize with your quest for truth. I was at that point a few years ago and God really began to unravel some faulty thinking and learning…nothing in reference to the present topic though.
You do seem to present quite an authoritative position concerning your conclusions (please do not rehash them…you’ve been asked not to do that in this thread and it is not the purpose of this comment). I see from on your site that you are an amateur linguist and your comments above suggest your sources are derived from the internet. So I am curious about your education. Who have you received training from other than the internet?
As Susan mentioned, Dr. Wallace is one of the highest regarded scholars in his field. But he, like many others, have spent years engaged in formal training, under scholars in their own right, to make sure that they approach translation of the original text with the utmost care and integrity. That’s not to say that one cannot engage in a self-study, but the danger is that deviations can occur (I’m not making any accusations here).
I appreciate your cause in really getting to the true meaning of the text, trust me I do. But I say this to say, that it might help your cause if you had the backing of reputable scholars or at least were able to demonstrate that your conclusions were the fruit of scholarly training rather than self-study and internet surfing.
Abecedaria on 11 Nov 2008 at 6:54 pm #
Lisa,
Thanks for pointing out how I may be misunderstood. I trained in classical Greek and Latin (also French and German) in a high school programme designed to provide students for entry into classics at the university of Toronto. At university I eventually transferred into Near Eastern Studies for Hellenistic Greek and Hebrew and then into Linguistics. So I have a reasonable repertoire of Biblical and modern languages.
I studied at a Bible school in Switzerland in French and German. I then completed the SIL training and later an MA in Education with reference to First Nations languages and literacy.
Circumstances prevented me from pursuing further formal studies. I have published in the area of writing systems and special needs education. This is the area I work in now.
Regarding scholars who agree with my position. I cited Andreas Kostenberger. He seems to present the same information that I do, that there is no lexical evidence that authentein means “to have authority.” I think he is well respected.
Where we differ is that he says didaskein – to teach – cannot have a negative meaning in the pastoral epistles, and that both authentein and didaskein must have the same force, either negative or positive. I concur. But, I think, on balance, authentein is definitely negative in force, and didaskein must therefore also be negative, as it is in Titus 1:11.
I regret that this is a reiteration. But I want to show that in the scholarly evidence, I believe Kostenberger and I see the same evidence. We disagree on whether didaskein – to teach – can possibly be negative. I cite Titus 1:11.
Linda Belleville has also published on this topic in Discovering Biblical Equality ed. Pierce and Groothuis. I was able to check every one of her references on Junia as well in context on the internet in the full text.
Regarding the internet. I do use the Perseus site and Papyrus databases to find many of the original documents cited in many studies by Wallace, Grudem, Baldwin, etc.
My understanding is that originally these men also had someone who conducted searches in Greek databases for their studies. I cite Dr. Wallace on his practice in this regard. He writes,
Note 46 “A profound debt of gratitude is owed to Chris Bradley of Princeton University who spent much of the summer of 1999 gathering the data, isolating the relevant constructions, translating many of the texts, and offering his preliminary assessment of their value.” In Was Junia Really An Apostle?
I do honestly believe that my personal practice is acceptable in regard to research. I typically read the full fragment or several pages of a document and I am familiar with many texts in their entirety.
I have many scholarly texts and lexicons of my own as well. I think that I have access through these books and the internet to most of the scholarly resources that professional scholars have. I have my own Vulgate and Bibles in several languages including modern Greek NT. I am familiar with many texts from flipping through them and reading at length.
If you look at my pages for Philodemus you can see that I have actually photographed pages of the book and posted them on the internet. It now becomes an internet document.
On Pagnini, as well, I have photographed part of the Pagnini translation from the rare books library in Toronto. I would suggest that this is a very influential Bible translation but little known.
Just as the manuscripts that Dr. Wallace photographs and posts become internet documents, so also most Greek texts from antiquity are posted on the internet and have become internet documents.
I am well aware that many scholars access documents from electronic sources. I have never been disparaged before for the fact that I use and produce internet documents.
I hope this has not been too repetitive. I have had most of this information posted for some time, and many theologians know that it is there. No one has actually said that it is inaccurate, although I do frequently note typos and other errors of that order in my writing.
My sense is that many scholars concur with my presentation on authentein. Among Bibles which translate authentein in a way that does not denote church leadership are,
Vulgate – dominari
Luther – herr sein
KJV – usurp authority
TNIV – assume authority
I think where I differ from many other scholars is that I have not given up hope.
Sue
http://powerscourt.blogspot.com/
scott gray on 11 Nov 2008 at 8:22 pm #
dan–
i understand the use of scripture to justify the position that women are ‘equal but different’ and that this means men and women are not allowed the same opportunities for leadership. my question is, ‘is it a just position?’ if it is just because it can be justified per se by scripture, that by definition anything that is justified by scripture is just, i can understand that. but by the same reasoning there are a whole slew of responses and behaviors that are called for by scripture that we aren’t doing yet should be because they are justified by scripture: killing disobedient sons, killing witches, and the like.
if a scriptural mandate is unjust, according to your own moral and ethical framework, as you’ve learned it first from scripture and then developed it through experience, then set it aside. which matters more to you– that a position is just, or that it is justified by scripture? they are not necessarily congruent. is primacy of the text more important than primacy of justice responses to injustices? (seems jesus had oodles to say on this point.)
if the ‘women aren’t equal’ position is unjust, let it go. in fact, if is unjust, proclaim against it.
peace–
scott
Dan Wallace on 11 Nov 2008 at 8:51 pm #
Scott, I’ve heard your argument before many times, but it just won’t wash. It is based on a profound misunderstanding of the role of scripture in the believing community. The examples you cite: killing disobedient sons, killing witches, are from the Old Testament, a document written for a people under a theocracy. We are not under a theocracy today, nor are Christians under the authority of the Old Testament. It had its time and place, but we are to live by an ethic that is a higher standard. You enlist Jesus on your side, but I wonder if you have really read much of what he had to say. I will stand by scripture as my moral compass. Those who stand by their own lights end up in chaos and anarchy. Give the New Testament a fresh reading sometime. You might be surprised.
scott gray on 11 Nov 2008 at 9:04 pm #
dan–
i’ve heard your argument many times as well, and it just doesn’t wash. the prophetic tradition of proclaiming against injustices doesn’t abate or vanish simply because the christian scriptures are the source of an injustice. the principle still applies– justice, and service to others, is more important than a legalistic understanding of scripture. when luke 4 and isaiah 61 have as much air time as 1 timothy and genesis 3, we’ll know we are truly allowing scripture to be a profound moral compass.
peace–
scott
Dan Wallace on 11 Nov 2008 at 9:12 pm #
Scott, if you’re going to enlist Jesus on your side, then you have no case. You can’t cherry-pick from the Bible without looking at the historical context, claim that Jesus is on your side, then choose whatever you want (which is typically whatever is hot in the culture at the moment) as your moral guide. When the Lord said, ‘Not one dot or stroke will pass from the law until all is fulfilled’ or ‘the scripture cannot be broken’ he’s putting a primacy on scripture as our moral guide. What imperative in the New Testament do you see that is obviously unjust and should not be followed–besides your view of the role of women in the church?
scott gray on 11 Nov 2008 at 9:33 pm #
dan–
what fun!!
you avoided my earlier questions, which perhaps you took as a false dichotomy, perhaps as false as the one you set up– between your understanding of scripture, and ‘chaos and anarchy.’ the kingdom is not ‘orderly and politically structured,’ (the opposite of chaos and anarchy), as you would have it. it’s messy. it starts as a mustard seed, a weed, and becomes something pervasively with us.
i understand that you give heraldry of the text primacy in your model of church. avery dulles would say this: that proclamation of the word precipitates a ‘jesus event’ by its very proclamation. would you agree?
scott
Truth Unites... and Divides on 11 Nov 2008 at 11:28 pm #
Scott Gray,
Are you the same Scott Gray who wrote the following elsewhere:
“i’m an atheist, at least about the judeo-christian god. agnostic about other possibilities. i’ve been witnessed to, and asked about desired programing by local faith communities, and none of the life(style) of the christians i see is anything i’d want to emulate, or participate in.
the only model of church i see of any value is church as servant to the world. if you are a christian, and you want my attention, your witness should be about asking me to participate in a habitat for humanity project, or a weekend at the soup kitchen, or a trip to the hospital to visit lonely oldsters, or a run to the local jail to minister with companionshiup and support needs of inmates and their families. any other witness is of no value.
the local church once sent pairs of people door-to-door and they landed at my house. they asked what programs i thought their church should add to serve the community (they meant local homeowners and retired people as community). i asked how many homeless people lived in a 10 mile radius of the church and what programs they were running for them. the returned look was of disgust, and the answer was none. no programs. conversation over, except for the forced pleasantries of disengagement from these people on my front porch.
why do you insist on offering salvation to people who perceive no need for it? if you as a christian want to witness, your primary text needs to shift from john 3:16 to luke 4:16-19, or isaiah 61. otherwise, i, and the world at large, have no use for your message.
peace–
scott”
bethyada on 12 Nov 2008 at 1:42 am #
which matters more to you– that a position is just, or that it is justified by scripture?
I am fallen. While I put a great deal of faith in reason/ logic, I know these processes will fail me. Not because they are wrong, but because I will be. I may accept wrong axioms, I may use faulty reasoning, I may so desire a conclusion, I ignore that it contradicts other beliefs of mine.
So if I have to choose I go with the latter. Scripture triumphs my theory of just. If they contradict I cannot be sure my theory of just is true. My theory of just must be modified as it ultimately comes from the Bible.
scott gray on 12 Nov 2008 at 2:20 am #
tu…ad!!
my long lost sister/brother/sock-puppet-of-cmp/hider-behind-large-anonymous rocks!! good to hear from you!! happy veteran’s day/st. martin’s feast day to you!! how was your summer?
scott
p.s. yes, although i see i’ve been redacted and taken out of context.
and i’m not even dead yet.
the original manuscript is here:
http://www.joethepeacock.com/2008/03/how-to-actually-talk-to-atheists-if.php
comment #154. i thought joe the peacock wrote an excellent post .
Vladimir on 12 Nov 2008 at 9:31 am #
scott, aka…
Your basic premise is unbiblical. The Scriptures address and require *righteousness* – not strict *justice*.
Justice is a cold, hard, ruthless, demeanor. The Greeks, pagans, barbarians that know not the true God arranged their conduct accordingly (generally speaking). Even the Greek and Roman gods were known for nemesis against injustices among men – real or imagined. I think of Juno against Aeneas as one example. What about the incest of their gods and lack of moral uprightness.
All these views are subjective surmises. The Scriptures are objective revelation (unveiling). Yes, like when a wife takes off her teddy – she is stark bare.
In a world of strict justice there is no mercy. There are law enforcement agencies, capital punishment, tormenting militatry tribunals, lax morals to obviate justice, etc.
But the Scriptures speak of *righteousness*, i.e., acting rightly or according to what is right. But this rightness in behaviour is defined by God Himself. It is not left wide open and to the whimes and fancies of fallen mankind.
Vladimir
Vladimir on 12 Nov 2008 at 9:58 am #
Scott,
If you want to know the quintissential example of justice in human history, then read the Gospel narratives of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth.
This is God’s demeanor and carriage against sin. This is also how God can be *just* and *justify* the ungodly (in conduct).
How? Jesus rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures as proof.
This is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.
Of course, there is another avenue available to equal this.
31″When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37″Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40″The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41″Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44″They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45″He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46″Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
St Matthew 25:31-46
Vladimir
Vladimir on 12 Nov 2008 at 11:08 am #
Sue,
Might I suggest that you conceptualize what it means within a Christian context to “have/exercise authority over.” Perhaps the relationship between parents and children to start, then between a husband and wife, finally, between a pastor or elders and the flock.
Compare St Matthew 20:24-27 and Acts 20:25-38.
We can develope this further later if you wish.
Vladimir
Susan on 12 Nov 2008 at 12:18 pm #
Vladimir, If I might tweak what you said a bit…. a necessary correction:
1) How can God justify the ungodly?
Jesus paid the punishment for our sin. He was the only sinless lamb, who could adequately atone for our sin. The justice of God was satisfied in Christ… for us. But, only for us who receive Jesus as our Lord and Savior, believing that He is God in human flesh, and repenting of (turning from) our past sin. Only God’s Spirit can bring about this conviction over our sin, which is essential for our salvation.
2) You said: “Of course there is another alternative to equal this”
That is actually a false statement. If we do deeds of mercy to Christ’s brethren (Christians… or nonchristians, for that matter) this is not another equivalent way to atone for our sin and be saved. Doing these kind deeds does not merit favor with God, and thus absolve us of our sin.
Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except by me.” ( i.e. # 1) above )
Doing acts of mercy to help others is not an alternative avenue to being forgiven, and seen as righteous in God’s sight.
The passage you have quoted in Matthew speaks of the deeds which will be present in the life of one who is truly a child of God… in a sense, those deeds evidence the heart which is truly transformed by the indwelling Holy Spirit. And yes, even nonbelievers are capable of doing kind deeds to help others. But this does not, in and of itself, put them into a right relationship with God.
Scott,
I visited the link you provided. Yes, we Christians need to reach out to others in self-sacrificial ways. But, Satan, the deceiver, will always seek to silence the verbal proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, because he knows that no one will escape the coming wrath of God (true justice)…. hell, unless they have both HEARD and responded to the truth therein, and received that which was earned for us by Jesus, on the Cross.
This is reality. Whether you acknowledge it or not, will not change God’s verdict against you on Judgement Day (when God will separate the sheep from the goats). Be ready. You won’t be able to change your mind then!
Don Johnson on 12 Nov 2008 at 4:00 pm #
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
The Scriptural context of saying someone “twists Scripture” is that it is to their destruction, so I wish people would not use this terminology for things that are not dealing with salvation.
It is much less pejorative to say one has a different understanding.
Sue on 12 Nov 2008 at 4:41 pm #
I felt that Dr. Wallace was saying that egalitarians twist scripture. But there is little evidence for anything but “to dominate” or “dominari.” There really is not evidence for any other meaning. But I would be happy to see someone contribute this.
Lisa,
The internet contains most of ancient Greek literature and the Papyrus databases and that is what I mean when I say that it is on the internet. My education is sufficient and I think that if I made any error in fact or in linguistic analysis, then someone would point this out
Thanks,
Sue
scott gray on 12 Nov 2008 at 5:02 pm #
vladimir—
you talk about the relationship between justice and righteousness, and it’s a good place to start. i don’t know where you got your definitions from. but my understanding of justice and righteousness start here:
the hebrew word we most often translate as justice is mishpat, and the word most often translated as righteousness is sedaqah. scripture scholar bruce malchow understands sedaqah to be ‘fulfillment of the demands of a relationship.’ he understands mishpat to be the decision, action, or behavior one does when one is mindful of and engaged in, sedaqah.
another scholar, temba mafico, expands further on the intent of justice: mishpat is most often intended to lead to the restoration of a situation or environment, which promotes equity and harmony (shalom) in a community. so justice can also be thought of as bringing a situation to an appropriate ‘shalom’ configuration.
i tend to think of righteousness as ‘right relationship.’ all of these understandings are appropriate for example, in interpreting the beginning of psalm 72:
o god, endow the king with thy own justice (ability and authority to bring about an appropriate shalom configuration);
and give thy righteousness (fulfillment of the demands of a relationship) to the king’s son.
that he may judge the people rightly and deal out justice (promotion of harmony and and equity) to the poor and suffering.
may hills and mountains afford thy people peace and prosperity (shalom) in righteousness (right relationships).
in my opinion, this is the lens by which we are called through the jesus teachings to exegete and interpret scripture. (even though i am agnostic, i still value the jesus teachings as part of my personal ‘wisdom literature’ canon. which i think dan calls cherry picking.) it focuses on right relationship with the poor and suffering, as i pointed to when i cited jesus’ proclamation in luke 4 in an earlier comment with dan. it focuses on restoration of shalom, of harmony and prosperity. there’s no reason why these same criteria can’t apply to the exegesis and interpretation of 1 timothy and genesis 3.
use scripture interpretations to restore harmony, to strengthen right relationship. judgement rooted in legalism, rooted in prescriptive fiats, are a nice place to start one’s interpretation, but the fullness of enterpretation of scripture is in relationships. when the enforcement of a fiat in legalistic form causes an injustice, and cripples right relationship, it is unjust. that’s the point i was trying to make with dan earlier. let righteousness and justice be your guide to interpreting and implementing scripture prescriptions.
so vladimir, i disagree with you here– there’s nothing unbiblical about this approach to hermeneutics. nothing unbiblical at all.
you may want scripture to be objective revelation, but these scriptures were hatched, molded, and changed and shifted through a rich historical context that wasn’t objective at all. if they were indeed so objective, there wouldn’t be oodles of scholars wrangling over exegesis, context, original manuscripts, hermeneutics, methodology, dogma, and the like. pick your canon and translation and treat it objectively if you wish, if it is a source comfort and inspiration to you, but don’t be surprised when someone else’s ‘objective revelation’ doesn’t match yours.
susan—
thanks for responding. the irony to me is that the parable you chose to end with, about separating sheep and goats? it hase nothing to do with repentence or faith-filled belief. it has to do with one’s reward or punishment for how one treats jesus in the poor and suffering, in the ‘least of these.’ which is exactly what i’m talking about with dan—just living, righteous living, rules over an ‘objective revelation’ approach and its corresponding belief, which often seems to be at the expense of righteousness.
thanks susan, vladimir, dan, for an interesting conversation.
peace—
scott
Sue on 12 Nov 2008 at 6:09 pm #
Tonight I will post a sizable quote from Kostenberger on my site, to demonstrate that he recognizes that authentein was used only “once or twice” before the NT. I will post those two citations again.
Kostenberger then claims that didaskein – to teach – “virtually always has a postive connotation” in the pastorals. (However, it can clearly also have a negative connotation. Titus 1:11. )
I am citing here from Kostenberger’s interview on Between Two Worlds, July 30, 2008. This information is likely to be slightly different and updated from earlier blogposts and published books and articles.
In recognition of these basic facts, I feel that egalitarians fall far short of twisting scripture in any way when they read authentein as “to dominate” or some other translation of “dominari.”
I would like to see some recognition that there is no foundation for saying that egalitarians twist scripture. I seek peace.
Sue
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Nov 2008 at 6:10 pm #
Scott Gray,
I’m not a sockpuppet of CMP. And I did not take you out of context since I merely wanted to identify whether you were the same person here as on that other blog thread.
To know that you’re an “an atheist, at least about the judeo-christian god” is helpful to know.
Given that you have a Christian background, and that you now acknowledge that you’re an atheist apostate, I think Susan’s exhortations to you are appropriate and well-intentioned.
It might be helpful for you to look at CMP’s latest blog post about “Ten Arguments for God’s Existence” and participate in that thread since you’re a professing atheist.
Sue on 12 Nov 2008 at 6:20 pm #
Vladimir,
Sorry, I did not respond to your recent comment. In 1 Peter 5:3 we see that a leader is not to katakyrievw the clergy. The leader is not to lord it over others. This was also translated as dominor in the Vulgate, leading me to believe that neither the leaders in the church, nor husbands, nor wives, nor parents, nor earthly masters, are to dominari or authentein those who are under their care.
On another point, I cannot agree agree that as a parent is to a child, so a husband to a wife. All proper authority from parent to child and leader to congregation, is specifically to empower and contribute to the growth of those being led, so that they become full adults.
Sue
Vladimir on 12 Nov 2008 at 6:48 pm #
Scott and Susan,
Scott, thanks for that, I think? I’m not familiar with either author you cite. Are they Jewish or Muslim? My point, however, was that the righteousness that God requires is not conceptualized as the Greeks, Romans and barbarians, or even ethnic present day Jews or Muslims conceive it.
I’ll have to reflect further on this Jewish ethic as you have presented it, before I comment further. But I will say this much, the Rabbis are not my model for a hermeneutical paradigm. Most Rabbic writings are post Jesus’ time on earth. From an historical perspective this will never do.
My point was, which you have confounded with Susan’s remarks, is that God’s moral ethic cannot be understood apart from Christ Jesus. I was hoping that you would see this reality.
Susan, thanks for your further elaboration on my remarks to Scott, but I was addressing other issues with him, not the ones that you think I need correction on or misunderstand.
But it is true there is an alternative to ransom/propitiation/vicarious sacrifice/atonement for our sins in Christ on the tree. And yes, there is a correlation between faith and deeds. But the point I was making to Scott was that to reject Christ’s work, the alternate is clearly defined by St Matthew:
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Vladimir
Vladimir on 12 Nov 2008 at 7:15 pm #
Sue,
Let me be direct. I’m not angry with you or trying to be unkind. You have already LOST the argument. You are ignoring the context which determines the meaning of words. You are not considering the other contexts and examples that are offered in Scripture. Words identify external reality.
How do you understand dominare? Is it a husband who beats his wife physically into submission? Is it a parent yelling and screaming at the top of their lungs because the child is so stupid that it can’t understand what the parent requires because the parent is so incompetent that it is unable to express itself clearly?
Or is it when a pastor says that he can’t marry a couple because the man or woman has been married 6x before?
Does not a father *dominate* his child when he carries him in his arms asleep on his shoulder?
Does not a pastor *dominate* when he says: “Please rise for the singing of the benediction”?
Does not a mother *dominate* when she says: “no” to her children, when they want candy instead of fruit?
Egalitarians are not safe guides in this matter. God is.
Vladimir
scott gray on 12 Nov 2008 at 7:29 pm #
v–
malchow is catholic, i think. mafico is a phd from harvard, but i can’t tell you what his religious heritage is. neither are, to my knowledge, from a post-1st c. rabbinic tradition, though both specialized in hebrew scripture studies. i can tell you the books the ideas are from, if you wish.
you point about the righteousness of the judeo-christin god over roman, greek, egyptian, etc. is well made. it is one of the underpinnings of the tradition of ethical monotheism, i think.
i’m not sure i presented a jewish ethic per se, unless you would also accept that jesus’ heritage was a jewish ethic as well. although as i said before, religious heritage, to include scripture, rides richly in history and context, so jesus’ jewish ethic may not have been the same as i articulated. i’m betting close, though. i offer jesus’ justice/righteousness teachings as support.
you said ‘god’s moral ethic cannot be understood apart from jesus.’ can you unpack this idea abit?
you talked about ‘rejecting christ’s work.’ i thought i had made it clear that i don’t reject the righteous and justice centered work of christ; rather i embrace it. so i’m not sure what you mean here.
same with the ‘righteous having eternal life.’ i embrace righteousness, as i articulated at length above.
peace–
scott
Vladimir on 12 Nov 2008 at 7:41 pm #
Scott,
I’ll have to unpack it tomorrow.
pax,
Vladimir
From The Balcony on 12 Nov 2008 at 11:03 pm #
Dan – I appreciate the clarification you made about your position. I appreciate your work/study/contribution to the academic world so much – and your honest opinions about your stand on this issue.
After reading all of this thread (WHEW!), I’d like to speak from the viewpoint of the average layperson….no fancy theological education to tack on to my name. Yet, I believe my viewpoint has value because God has not made His Word so difficult to understand that I, as a common Christian, cannot understand it.
I think all can be summed up in your comment, Dan, “At bottom, there are defensible reasons for egalitarianism and defensible reasons for complementarianism. ” If this is true, why must we continue to make this such a divisive issue – especially in our churches — plainly visible for the whole world to see?
I dream of a time when this non-essential controversial will cease to affect the body of Christ so negatively. When we continue to argue on something that can never be proven 100%, the gospel message becomes masked. The light of the gospel should not be hidden beneath constant controversy among the brethren. Let me give you an example of why this is frustrating to lay people….
My hubby commutes to LA from another state. I saw that MacArthur was having a conference early next year with some speakers I would like to hear. Great! An opportunity to visit my hubby and hear some great speaking about God.
I registered for the conference and a box pops up. “Sorry, no women are allowed at this conference.” Honestly? The message this sends to the world is that God really doesn’t care for all of His people — only those that the church deems important enough to participate in the process.
I dream of a Christian environment where egalitarianism and complementarianism don’t matter any more. An environment where we have the grace to use sound judgment in how our strong, sometimes legalistic opinions affect the church and those who view us from outside.
As laypeople we think simply. Many of us try to see the broad picture of the Bible while we struggle to understand the ‘exegesis’ of it all. No amount of exegesis is going to be able to 100% convince lay people that Deborah and Priscilla did not hold leadership positions….Priscilla possibly in the church and Deborah with the Israelites (God’s people). How do you judge Israel as Deborah did without being in leadership? That leaves enough doubt for me – I believe the whole picture is just as important as the exegesis for one little verse.
The truth is – the decision to be an equalitarian or a complementarian boils down to preference for most of us. Must we always allow our preferences to divide the body of Christ? Must we continue to allow our preferences to turn others away from Christ?
I will admit – I prefer male leadership, but I believe there are gifted women who are called to lead. Giftedness is not something we should ignore.
Honest discussion is healthy and I love it. Yet, at some point and time all of us must be willing to sacrifice our preferences for the glory of the heart of the gospel message. That includes MacArthur and that includes me. If God calls me to a church that holds a complementarian position…and I truly feel called there…then I must sacrifice what I believe to be true because this is a non-essential of the faith. MacArthur, in my honest opinion, should not have banned women from just sitting in on the sessions and soaking up the teaching of God’s Word from some magnificent speakers. Does not God want women to know Him better? Especially those who seek to know Him better.
I so very much appreciate that you recognize that this is a non-essential. I am also glad you recognize that it is an argument you will never win.
Nor will I.
Thus — the question is…..How shall we handle this dilemma in the church? How can we graciously put aside our differences and become united in the cause of Christ? This is hard because so many evangelical churches have adopted the complementarian stance. Thankfully, God has not called me to a church like that. I’ve been able to see the power of God working in our equalitarian atmosphere.
Now that I’ve written a book, I want to wish you a quick healing. Thank you for all you do. I love your ministry — even if I disagree with you on this particular non-essential!
Dan Wallace on 12 Nov 2008 at 11:38 pm #
Dear Balcony, thanks so much for your input. I appreciate your attitude deeply and feel that complementarians have often done more harm than good by simply stating their position without explanation and without expressing sympathy for women. I am sorry about the insensitivity of the MacArthur seminar. There should at least have been some reasons given.
As I see it, however, there are a couple of things I would disagree with you on: although we may not be able to have 100% certainty on this issue, that is the case with many, many issues that face the church. Whether certain gifts continue today or not, what a church’s view on the millennium is, how we should relate to environmental issues, the poor, Calvinism, Arminianism, whether hell is a real place in which there is eternal suffering, whether someone can be saved without calling on the name of Jesus–these are all issues that belong at least in that third level of importance of one’s doctrinal taxonomy.
We can’t simply make no decision; otherwise, chaos is the result. That’s why I have a category in my doctrinal taxonomy of third tier importance: decisions that need to be made in order for a local church to function properly. I believe that this issue belongs at least in that category. Some churches, however, make it more than that–much more. Some egalitarian churches exclude people from being members unless they embrace full egalitarianism (in which the husband is no longer viewed as the head of the family). I think that’s going way overboard, just as it would be for a complementarian church to exclude membership to egalitarians.
But you also seem to be 100% certain about Deborah and Priscilla. That sounds like dogma to me, when I suspect you don’t know all the exegetical issues involved.
On a very practical issue, I will say this: My wife and I were members of a church where the pastor was a complete egalitarian. The elders were not, but he had the pulpit and he put forth his ideas. It created chaos in the church and infighting that was simply not healthy. Pati and I intentionally joined the church because of his position; we wanted to show that this issue was a non-essential to us, even to the degree that we would participate in a church that had an egalitarian pastor. We were members for five years before we had to check out. Too much chaos and not enough focus on the real things that mattered. A decision needs to be made if an individual church is to make an impact.
Since I am not the pastor of a church, I have a great deal of freedom in this regard–just like laypeople do! I can minister with egalitarian women freely–and often have. When I choose seminary interns to work with, I never ask them about their theological convictions up front. That’s never been a criterion for me. I choose the best and brightest students–both men and women. And to the women I speak to them during the internship and ask them to make sure that they come to some decision on this matter because it will affect their ministries. I want them to have a clear conscience regarding their position. One said that she didn’t want to offend anyone, and I told her that no matter what view she held she would offend someone. I even ask them to write papers in defense of egalitarianism if they so choose–and read them at scholarly meetings. They know my views but they also know my attitude. And they also know that my position hardly stops me from working together side by side with godly women in ministry.
As was said of Granville Sharp, so I hope it will be said of me: “A churchman in faith, in charity a universalist.” Good model for us all.
From The Balcony on 13 Nov 2008 at 12:09 am #
Wow that was fast, Dan! You must be feeling better!
You are right – sadly, a decision must be made regarding the position of the church — which is why I said all of us must make the decision to sacrifice our preferences if we are called to a certain church. It is simply my dream that Christians could unite together in the understanding that division over non-essentials is harmful to the body. Frankly – I think it is sinful.
The only part I don’t understand in your response is your last paragraph….where you say, “I can minister with egalitarian women freely–and often have. When I choose seminary interns to work with, I never ask them about their theological convictions up front. That’s never been a criterion for me. I choose the best and brightest students–both men and women.”
I truly believe you do this – that you are fair and honest with both genders and do treat them respectfully.
However, if this statement is true, why then is this not also true within the church? You are asking your interns to be leaders – chosen to represent your very respected work. Certainly the church is not just a building where we contain some opinions one way but do so in the outside world another way. They won’t always be under your authority as they go out into the world. Just an honest question…. I promise! I do appreciate that you ask your students to come to a decision about this personally.
Well, I won’t belabor the point – nor worry about whether my exegesis of Deborah and Priscilla is perfectly correct in a scholastic sense. If I could do it all over again, I’d attend seminary in a heartbeat….but I believe God still teaches me not only through wonderful teachers like you/Mikey/Rhome, but through the Holy Spirit , who illuminates my understanding — if I am faithful to study his word and ask for His guidance with all seriousness and sincerity.
This is just one of those things we will disagree on but I look forward to spending eternity with all of you!
Dan Wallace on 13 Nov 2008 at 2:24 am #
Balcony, again I thank you for your attitude. I agree that division within the body of Christ is sinful. But so is going against one’s conscience. I try to find unity wherever possible, but I realize that when it comes to the local church level, decisions need to be made. You realize this too.
You asked me about why working with those of different persuasions within the church cannot be the same as outside the church. At least, I think that’s what your question is. But I think you answered that already when you recognized that local bodies have to have policies that they follow.
Allow me to give an illustration that might help. My interns occasionally teach my classes. If I have a female intern and she is to teach a class, I ask the students the class before if this would cause them any concern. Specifically, I ask them if it would go against their conscience to be taught by a woman. I lay out why I don’t think that such is a violation of 1 Tim 2.12 and explain my view. But I don’t want to run roughshod over those whose conscience would not allow them to sit under a woman teacher. I volunteer to teach those students privately, covering the same material that would be covered in the class.
Now, it wouldn’t work very well to do that sort of thing in a church. Imagine what would happen if a pastor said, “Next Sunday, we will have a guest speaker, a woman. If any of you have a conscientious objection to that, please let me know and I’ll teach you privately.” Laypeople are looking to the leadership of the church to guide them in these decisions. In this instance, the pastor would be saying that the layfolks have enough information to make informed decisions, but they may disagree with the decision of the pastor. It would put people in a very awkward place, and would send mixed signals. Doing so in a seminary classroom—where all those in attendance are preparing for full-time Christian vocational ministry—is entirely different.
I hope this clarifies for you how I view this matter.
scott gray on 13 Nov 2008 at 8:47 am #
dan—
there are two excellent examples of the type of injustice i’ve been taking about in your conversation with ‘from the balcony.’ she said that she was barred from a christian conference because no women were allowed. not because of her religious affiliation, which she has control over, or her sexual preference, which she has control over, but because of her chromosomal configuration, over which she has absolutely no control. this is blatantly unjust. and the situation is the result of a primacy given to scripture, where the authority and prescriptions of the scripture itself are more important than righteousness and justice. after further discussion with others above, i would describe it as a hermeneutical issue; that a hermeneutics of ‘objective revelation of the text’ trumps a hermeneutic of ‘righteousness and justice.’ And the injustice is over church governance, not the message of the gospel. when church governance through ‘objective revelation of the text’ trumps a gospel of ‘righteousness and justice,’ something is wrong.
but i don’t think it’s wrong in a chaotic way, as you describe these conflicts. the opposite of chaos is order; you want an orderly church. rather, i think it is a conflict of disharmony. the opposite of disharmony is harmony, as i talked about in my explanation of justice as restoring harmony and equality to a configuration of shalom. it seems a harmonious church is a better instrument of a faith community’s mission than an orderly one. the kingdom is not orderly. it’s messy. but it can be ’shalom messy.’ maybe like a household that includes children that is not orderly, but instead is happy and busy.
you talked about a faith community you were part of where the pastor was egalitarian, and the elders were not. you described the result as chaos. if the discernment among the parish council, or whatever you call the leaders of your faith community, had wrestled through a lens (hermeneutic) of justice instead of legalistic ‘objective revelation of the text’ arguments, the results may have been different. i can’t know, of course, i wasn’t there, but you were. would the results have been different if justice and righteousness, as i described in an earlier post, had been the lens of discernment instead of primacy of the text?
as much as you would like to see a both/and approach to this issue, you said yourself that decisions have to be made in these situations. which takes me way back to an earlier question i asked you: when primacy of the text causes an injustice, which is more important to you?
peace—
scott
Vladimir on 13 Nov 2008 at 9:55 am #
Scott,
Let me begin by saying I will not interact with the observations of the two previously cited scholars that you mentioned simply because I have not read their works.
Nevertheless, I know some Hebrew. The OT speaks of many things in many terms. For example, the terms mishpat (commandment) can also mean in certain contexts mercy. The Hebrew khesed (favor, grace, mercy) can also mean righteousness/uprightness. So too misphat in certain contexts.
But this is not what I want to focus on. For the Christian the objective reality and RIGHTEOUSNESS of/from God is revealed in time and space in his mighty redemptive acts by word and deed.
The Scriptures make it plain that the whole world is condemned before God because of its unrighteousness.
God Himself, His holy character, requires perfect obedience. Otherwise, according to the Scriptures, “the soul that sins shall die.”
But God’s redemptive plan for mankind is not based upon our own righteousness. It is based on His. Christ came into the world to save sinners.
St Matthew 5:17ff makes it plain that Christ’s work was to do what we could not – obey perfectly. This is Christ’s active obedience. His passive obedience is demonstrated in His punishment for our sins on the cross – vicariously. The wrath of God was revealed against us in Him on the tree.
By virtue of the fact that Christ rose from the dead on the third day according to the Scriptures, He evidenced the acceptance and reality of God’s atonement for our sins in Him.
Apart from God’s redemptive righteousness there can be no viable righteousness in this world. All other philosophies are arbitrary and weak – no matter how close they approximate to Christian/Biblical truth.
So, for example, we can see that subject reasoning apart from objective revelation (the Scriptures) evidences moral righteouness. E.g., 1. The belief that there is a God, 2. Stealing is wrong, 3. Adultery is forbidden, 4. the arbitrary taking of human life is forbidden, etc. Most societies accept these basic tenets. How and why, one might ask?
Compare carefully Romans 2:14-16; Acts 17 (esp., vv 16ff); St Jn 16:5-11.
But why then is there not harmony, peace, coexistence among us? Romans 1:18-32.
This is why the Bolsheviks and Communists could slaughter civil and religious objectors – numbering in the millions in Russia. This is why they could destroy churches or convert them into porno theaters.
This is why Nazi Germany could slaughter the Jews without a doubt.
This is why Saddam could slaughter hundreds of Kurds at will.
This is why.
What then? See St Jn 6:27-29.
God’s righteousness is objective and not dependent upon man. As Luther pondered the righteousness of God at Romans 1:16f it was at a time in his life when he would shack and shutter at thunder or the blowing of a leaf. He would not reconcile this “righteousness” in his own mind. Then finally, he saw what it really meant – God’s righteousness in Christ. That is the Gospel (Good News).
The Beatitudes address those who anomg other things hunger and thirst after righteousness. Ultimately, this is found and accepted in the Beloved One – the one who has been loved – even Christ Jesus. Cf 2 Peter 1:1.
You asked earlier about faith. In St Matthew 25:46 the righteous (Gr hOI DIKAIOI) are those who by faith respond and exhibit the fruits of their faith.
Vladimir
Susan on 13 Nov 2008 at 12:19 pm #
Scott, I can see in Vladimir’s response to you that he has an honest desire that you would come understand the loving sacrifice made by Jesus on the cross for you….. that you too might one day be seen as righteous in God’s sight. Once a person has come to a point of belief in Jesus…. that He is truly God, in human flesh, it puts them ‘at the foot of the cross’, ready to repent and receive the forgiveness offered through Christ. Scott, I realize, that as an atheist, you may be far from this recognition. At the same time, I have a hunch that you at least know what it is to feel guilt. Guilt over wrong that you know you have done…. even if you try to tell yourself that you shouldn’t feel that guilt…. that you haven’t really done wrong. God says that if we say that we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. But, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:8-9
In Christ, I have not only relief from the weighty burden of guilt, I have actual true forgiveness. In God’s eyes the slate is wiped clean! I will not be punished as I deserve.
Scott, I wonder why you are here, as an athiest (feel free to tell). I can’t help but think that whether you realize it or not, you are here to hear the truth about how much God loves you… because God Himself has drawn you to this place to hear this.
I hope that you will call out to Him….. even if you are full of doubt about His existence. Ask Him to help you to believe He exists if he really does. If you really want to know what the truth about God is, He will not deny you this.
Also Scott, you speak of God’s order… the position of men over women as an injustice. I am a woman, and I don’t see it that way. It only becomes an injustice when a man abuses that position to lord it over a woman in an unloving, selfish way. That then, is sin. As a nonbeliever, there will be many Biblical concepts which will continue to make no sense to you. Without God’s indwelling Holy Spirit, it is impossible to fully grasp spiritual concepts. My husband recently received Christ, and it’s amazing to note how he is finally really understanding some things which he has heard for years… sitting in church every Sunday.
My prayer will be that God will open the eyes of your heart to understand.
Susan
scott gray on 13 Nov 2008 at 12:19 pm #
v–
i think i understand your world view as you’ve presented it here. thanks for taking the time to explain your position.
scott
scott gray on 13 Nov 2008 at 12:20 pm #
susan–
thank you for taking the time to explain your position to me, as well.
scott
Susan on 13 Nov 2008 at 12:39 pm #
Scott, I’ve noticed a few atheists who comment here on occasion who seem to have as their objective to undermine what is being said by the scholar who posts. Sinister motive. I don’t get that from you however. I’m curious, if you don’t mind… why do you come here and interact?
Sue on 13 Nov 2008 at 2:03 pm #
A few readers have joined me on my website to look at the evidence since this is a foundation for possible interpretations. I appreciate those who have shown interest and invite others.
Thanks
Sue
From The Balcony on 13 Nov 2008 at 6:38 pm #
Thank you, Dan for your answer. I’m sincere when I say I appreciate your position.
All I can say in response is: I’ve been a member of several complementarian churches as we’ve moved around the country. Now I am a member of an egalitarian church (which is very conservative theologically speaking – though you wouldn’t know so by the denomination).
This church has such a sweet spirit of harmony and respect among genders. There is no need for chaos when this topic is not allowed to become a divisive issue. Men and women serve side by side in leadership and it works beautifully. These are conservative people – not liberal in the slightest. To me, that demonstrates the fruit of the Spirit and speaks loudly against the constant arguing and bickering which often results in the chaos you mentioned. I saw that kind of chaos in the complementarian churches we were a part of — as you did.
At this point and time in my walk, I feel comfortable with my decision to be egalitarian but I don’t fault others for their decision because I was a complementarian for years.
I know you feel you have the historical/literary expertise behind what you say. I can merely say — I daily seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit and humbly submit to what I believe He is teaching me. I am more studied than the average layperson (Mikey has turned me into a theology geek wanna-be….), but I can in no way match what I know with what you have studied and researched.
I’m not sure God expects us all to be Dan Wallaces.
The gospel message really is simple. Still, I believe God has given me assurance on this topic . I remain a constant student of His Word and try very hard to be faithful to what He has revealed to me through it.
Sadly, I’m just about to delete MacArthur’s podcasts from my ITunes. You handled it correctly. He did not……and the world watches…..
I love seeing unity in the Spirit over these kinds of divisive issues – and by golly, I’ve seen it in this egalitarian church.
Don Johnson on 13 Nov 2008 at 10:26 pm #
I used to be non-egal, until I learned that there were other ways (egal ways) to understand a very few puzzling verses. When I saw that, I jumped over the fence.
The thing I do not understand is why others would not jump it, I would only be non-egal if that was the only interpretive choice, as I base the egal choice on the Kingdom principles of justice and freedom. That is, whenever I find there may be options, I go up to a higher level principle and pick that choice at the lower level of detail.
Just to be specific it is not required to see 1 Tim 2:12 as a general command for all time, and the Greek could have been different if a general command was what was intended, see Ben Witherington on this. So there are a few choices to be made, only one of which results in a non-egal interpretation. But once there are choices, why does not everyone choose the egal choice?
Dan Wallace on 13 Nov 2008 at 11:46 pm #
Don, here’s the problem with 1 Tim 2.12: complementarians almost universally see one basic meaning here, viz., that women are not allowed to teach adult males biblical truths and commands. (Note the accent on the content of the teaching and the objects of the teaching.) Egalitarians, however, have had a multitude of interpretations, such as the following (which are not exhaustive):
1. authentein means ‘usurp authority’ and women are not allowed to usurp a man’s authority;
2. ‘woman’ and ‘man’ should be translated ‘wife’ and ‘husband’; thus a single woman may be a pastor but a married woman may not;
3. oude forms a hendiadys so that ‘teach’ and ‘exercise authority’ mean ‘authoritatively teach’ while other kinds of teaching are OK;
4. didaskein…ouk epitrepo means ‘I do not currently permit’; thus, it would be acceptable to teach men at other times and thus the command is not universal;
5. authentein means to ‘murder’ (!); and ritual symbolic murder is not permitted to women, but instead they must respect their husbands;
6. ‘teach’ is absolute (with no object) and ‘exercise authority’ is specifically related to men; thus, the absolute prohibition of women teaching is contradicted by Titus 2.4 where older women teach younger women. This thus proves that the prohibition was never meant to be of universal applicability.
7. Paul is following rabbinic practices here and is wrong; on a theological trajectory, we need to make corrections to this practice, especially in light of Gal 3.28.
Now, when each one of these interpretations has holes in it, and when there is no consensus among egalitarians as to which is to be preferred, it strikes me as though egalitarians are grasping at straws. The complementarian position has always maintained that there is some universal principle here that is still applicable. My take on it is that the egalitarian position is driven more by an agenda than by the plain meaning of the text. In this respect, Scott has made some good observations: he is asking complementarians to abandon complementarianism—not because it’s not biblical, but because (in his view) it’s not just. At least that view recognizes the plain meaning of this text.
As I’ve said all along, I wish I could be an egalitarian. But I cannot, in good conscience, simply pick an interpretation that suits my fancy. I take the hard sayings in the Bible with the easy to digest ones. But where I disagree with the author of the CBMW piece is that I don’t have to like what the Bible teaches here. There are many passages in scripture that disturb me, but at all points I am caught up short by the fact that I am finite and fallible, and that God is sovereign and good. In short, I trust his judgment on what is right.
dbw
Sue on 14 Nov 2008 at 12:02 am #
The difficulty is that there is no evidence at all that autenteo was related to having authority of any kind. Its only attested meanings were compel, control, dominate, instigate, have independent jurisdiction and lord it over. I cite complementarian literature in my own post on this.
This is a complementarian assessment of the word.
Kathy on 14 Nov 2008 at 3:39 am #
I’ve been wondering curiously about something. Does anyone know if 1 Tim
2:14 was interpreted historicaly to be saying that all women are deceived?
Was not ‘a woman’ in v.14, the deceived one thought to have meant all
women in general but Today it is thought to mean, particularly, Eve only?
Somebody, please do tell.
Did Paul write the singular ‘a woman’ in v.11 to mean genericaly all women
but then in v.14 did he use the same singular ‘a woman’ but switch his usage
to mean a singular, particular woman, ‘Eve’?
Was the historical position at least consistent, in that it was believed that
‘a woman’ meant all women in general in vv.11, 12 & 14? Does anyone
know? Maybe someone here will know?
So if Paul could use the singular ‘a woman’ in v.14 to mean ‘Eve’ a
particular woman, then he also could have used the same, singular
‘a woman’ in v.11 & 12 to refer to a particular woman (in Ephesus who was
teaching false things to her husband).
In the passage, why would Paul not be consistent with his usage of the
grammatical singular? Why would he use the grammatical singular genericaly
for all women (vv. 11 & 12) only to use it again for singular,
particualr meaning (v.14, Eve)?
That was my two cents worth of questions for the night.
Dan Wallace on 14 Nov 2008 at 6:59 am #
Kathy, you raise some excellent questions about the text. I think in the least that vv 13 and 14 need to be read as referring to the Genesis narrative. Whether Paul meant for the statement about deception to apply to all women is another matter. This, in fact, is what really troubles me about the text. If Paul is anchoring his reason for why women should not teach men to Genesis 2 (the ‘for’ at the beginning of v 13 most naturally means that he’s explaining why a woman should not be permitted to teach a man), then he’s building his argument on something that goes beyond the church and beyond the fall. Most egalitarians focus on Gen 3 as the basis for Paul’s argument, but here and elsewhere when Paul speaks about men and women, he uses Gen 2 (the pre-fall state) as part of his basis (cf. 1 Cor 11; 1 Cor 14; Eph 5). If this interpretation is correct, then it will not do to say that all things have become new in Christ and that women are now functional equals with men in church leadership, the home, etc.
Verse 14 continues the argument with ‘and,’ suggesting that Paul sees a twofold reason for his stance: not only in creation, but also in the fall, women take a functionally subordinate (NOT an ontologically subordinate) role to men. And that’s where a major problem comes for me. Is Paul really saying that women are more easily deceived than men? Is he using Eve as a type of all women? It’s hard for me to accept that. My wife isn’t as gullible as I am, and she is awfully aware of scams, etc. She doesn’t get deceived. I know of no studies (but then again, I haven’t looked) that suggest that women are wired so differently from men that they are more easily deceived. Besides, what’s curious in v 14 is that the implication is that Adam knowingly sinned with eyes wide open, while Eve—if the ability to be deceived is indeed a natural aspect of what it means to be a woman—didn’t. What puzzles me is why this would exonerate Adam and condemn Eve.
As for the switch between singular and plural, this is simply a natural way to write as a stream of conscientiousness. In the next chapter, Paul speaks of the bishop in the singular, but the deacons in the plural. And yet, the early church had a multiplicity of elders/bishops, not just one. We shouldn’t make too much out of the number there.
As for the historical understanding of the passage, I bet that Cheryl or Sue have those data at their fingertips.
scott gray on 14 Nov 2008 at 7:27 am #
dan, et al–
dan, you understand me well: i’m not arguing about what the text says, my exegetical skills and experience in this regard are those of a beginner, and not up to these nuances.
i am saying that the scripture invites layers of response. to choose to respond to governance issues at the expense of the gospel defeats the mission of the church, as you talked about in your own experience. and in my opinion it is the infallible/inerrant/sola scriptura/jott-and-tittle primacy-of-the-text stance which ties you all in the details at the expense of the mission.
in the gospel of john, jesus asked peter, ‘do you love me?’ peter replied, ‘you know me inside and out, lord! you know i love you!’ jesus said, ‘then set up an orderly church for me, one where women know their place.’
peace–
scott
Vladimir on 14 Nov 2008 at 10:17 am #
Dr Wallace,
Your last two post were very good. I don’t think that from an ontological perspective a woman and a man differ markedly apart from their own physiological makeup as constituted by God Himself.
The Scriptures only speak of the woman as “the weaker vessel.” 1 Peter 3:7
Your wife’s savy in detecting scams or whatever is more telling of her knowledge attained from knowledgeable sources and her own focus of attention.
Like the serpent, neither Adam or Eve escaped the punitive judgement of God. But Adam’s punishment was based on his own responsiblity in following the lead of Eve against his better judgement (in Gen 3).
I agree that this “agenda driven” motivation is at the core of this egalitarian posture, and quite frankly, I make no apologies for being a *complimentarian.* God’s social order(ing) evidences His wisdom and in the diversity of responsibilities He has instituted and ordained for the welfare and well-being of mankind in general and His Church in particular.
But, all this aside for a moment, the exegetical result will be and still is the hinge (cardo) upon which this issue will ultimately be decided.
The Jesuit doctrine “that the ends justify the means” is not acceptable; never has been, never will. The Church’s conceptualization of her agenda, however, is not uniform and variously understood. This is the problem – or at least a substantial contributing factor among egalitarians.
May we all seriously consider 2 Timothy 2:4-6, 19-21.
Vladimir
Sue on 14 Nov 2008 at 3:13 pm #
The church fathers are varied on women. Origin believed that this text meant that women could not minister in the church.
Chrysostom does not say but clearly states that no man may ever authentein his wife. Such tyranny is forbidden. Augustine and Chrysostom are clear that women were created as functional equals and because of sin and contention woman must take the lower place. If it had not been for the fall ….
Personally I rebelled when I was driving the car and my husband told me authoritatively to pass another car. I chose to save our lives instead. This is an example of my rebellion against the vow to obey.
There actually are studies which have determined that women are not more gullible than men.
I await the time when someone can cite to me an occurrence of authentein that has been translated as ” to have authority” elsewhere than in 1 Tim. 2:12. Such an occurrence would provide evidence.
Vladimir on 14 Nov 2008 at 3:39 pm #
Sue,
Is the role of women in God’s social order really “a lower place” or “a functionally different capacity?”
Re: Chrysostom. He also believed that the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit could be forgiven contra Jesus’ own pronouncement (St Mt 12:32, passim).
Vladimir
Vladimir on 14 Nov 2008 at 3:51 pm #
Sue,
This example that you site:
“Personally I rebelled when I was driving the car and my husband told me authoritatively to pass another car. I chose to save our lives instead. This is an example of my rebellion against the vow to obey.”
I think since you were the one behind the wheel and in control of the vehicle, your husband had already entrusted you with the responsibility to drive safely.
His comment may have been inappropriate or not. Are you a typical woman driver? :^)
Vladimir
Sue on 14 Nov 2008 at 4:12 pm #
This is an example of how a woman can be entrusted with the reponsibility of doing something and given none of the authority. It becomes impossible. I never drove with my husband in the car again.
This is the way it is when a person believes that they have authority because of their gender. It is not useful to anyone.
Lisa R on 14 Nov 2008 at 6:23 pm #
Sue,
In response to your note on the other post, I think you had already provided information. My question really was just prompted by how you presented your research sources and I was curious. But thanks for that comprehensive list of qualifications.
Now, I am just a lowly first year greek student so I am certainly in no position to debate the finer historical positions concerning the word that you are so adamantly defending. But one thing my greek prof keeps telling us as we are learning, that even in consideration of the lexical definition, words will be nuanced depending on the context. (Btw, my greek prof has a reputation for being almost as tough as our dear Dr. Wallace, which is great because its really forcing me to learn). And from my little perch here, it seems that in your pedantic defense of I Tim 2:12, I concur with Vladimir that context is something you are not considering.
I must say that I have not reached any definite conclusions concerning this passage as it relates to prohibitions against women teaching men as that being inclusive of exercising authority. In other words, I am not convinced that a woman, let’s say teaching a mixed Sunday school class is the same as exercising authority, which really is where the prohibition is. I am still learning and have much to learn.
Nonetheless, one thing I have recognized is that submission is at the heart of true Christianity and worshipping God. It compels me to subjugate whatever rights I think I might have, in favor of the greater good of orderly worship so ALL can learn and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Besides, I have discovered that there are more than enough hurting and broken girls and women in need of ministry and sound bible education that I can focus on, to get a bee in my bonnet about whether I should be teaching a man or not.
Finally, just a note of personal observation, I can only hope that you approach the more essential components of our Christian hope with the same level of intensity as you have with this topic. In the end, God’s program for people and reconciling them to Himself most certainly should trump whatever secondary issues have us in a stew. And focus on that, I think is what deserves an intensity of our time and energy.
Kathy on 14 Nov 2008 at 7:26 pm #
For right now, as this computer is giving me some problems (I’ll be using a
different one later tonight…) I have another question related to whether or
not the statment Paul made on deception in v.14 pertained to all women.
Did he use Eve as a type of all women?
If Paul did use the singular ‘woman’ in v.14 genericaly to mean women
in general as is thought to be how he used the same singular ‘woman’ in
vv.11 & 12, then would we not all be able to conclude also that
even though ALL women are easily deceived ALL of them come out of
being deceived, as in fact Eve had done, which is seen in her answer to God?
So if Eve is representative of all women, then all women will become deceived
but also all women will come out of being deceived. Would Paul prohibit all
women from teaching because they will become deceived yet come out of
being deceived? Yet men can teach and Adam is representative of all men?
Therefore all men will rebel but STAY rebels for Adam stayed a rebel.
Sue on 14 Nov 2008 at 10:27 pm #
testing
Sue on 14 Nov 2008 at 10:43 pm #
I have been unable to comment from my home computer for the last few days. However, it appears that now I can.
Lisa,
I assure that I approach all facets of life with intensity. I am much better known in other domains than this one, I can assure you. As Abecedaria, I was well read by script experts and was only recalled to this domain by the intense pain and distress which I share with other broken women.
So, on how to encode Greek accents three or four different ways in Unicode, no problem, but I prefer to defend women against the charge of rebellion. Think of all the women who are abused in the home, due to the accusation of rebellion. In fact, submission to this kind of abuse breeds further abuse.
For many women, it is a spiral down into depression. I fought depression by learning to input in 12 different non-roman scripts, by recreating the Junia study, kephale study and authentein study. By writing my own aner study. I write and write. I found dozens of cases of aner as citizen and human being in Plato and other texts. (Grudem still claims that it means exclusively the male.)
I am actually best known for writing about special needs children and the use of technology in differentiated learning. My years of language study although intense have been replaced by intense service with the hearing impaired and Downs syndrome.
I plead that men treat other women fairly and that other women would be permitted to engage in doctoral studies, something that was denied me.
I ask the managers of this website to never again state that the egalitarian woman is rebellious. This justifies the abuse of many women. Even one small step taken to ameliorate the condition of women under violent authority would be a kind action in the eyes of God.
I also ask that someone sometime somewhere demonstrate that there is even one piece of evidence prior or contemporary to the NT that authentein meant proper leadership in the church. I honestly do not believe that this can be done.
Sue on 14 Nov 2008 at 10:49 pm #
This represents the first 16 posts in my Junia study. There are several more but they are not collated.
Dan Wallace on 15 Nov 2008 at 12:03 am #
Sue, I suspect that your comments about egalitarian women being rebellious was directed at me. But allow me to clarify the context, and point to what I really said: I never said that all egalitarian women are rebellious; and I certainly hope that you are not implying that all complementarian men are abusers of women simply because they are complementarian. Neither view is correct. You did seem to imply that a man who sees himself as in some sense an authority because of his gender is wrong and therefore useless. I think that that’s a bit uncharitable.
What I did say was that there are rebellious egalitarian women and there are triumphant complementarian men. Neither attitude is godly. And it’s precisely that kind of person who is so fixed on their agenda that they are not doing the kingdom much good because they are majoring on the minors (as someone has already expressed in this thread).
Let me put it this way: I would far rather work in ministry with an egalitarian women who walked humbly before her Lord than a haughty complementarian man who didn’t. It’s not the position that is the problem; it’s the attitude.
Finally, I can fully agree with your statement: “Even one small step taken to ameliorate the condition of women under violent authority would be a kind action in the eyes of God.” There is nothing that gets my ire up as much as hearing about men abusing their wives. Nothing.
Sue on 15 Nov 2008 at 12:30 am #
Thanks Dan,
I accept that your comments on rebellion were not directed at anyone in particular. I would ask that these comments be tempered in future with consideration for the use that they may be put to. Thanks.
I am concerned that at this moment no one has ever provided even one piece of evidence that authenteo means “to have authority.” You have however, asked that I include in the currently recognized evidence “to commit violence.”
Now the two pieces of evidence for authenteo that have been established so far are
BGU 1208 – to compel established by Baldwin and agreed to by Grudem
scholia in Aeshchylus to commit violence – provided by Belleville and possibly agreed to by you
Do you have any other occurrences that you think could join this list?
Kostenberger suggests it occurs only once or twice prior to the NT so I do not think that there are many more.
Sue on 15 Nov 2008 at 12:50 am #
I am referring to
Scholia Graeca in Aeschylus, Eumenides 42a (first century B.C.): “The murderer, who had just committed an act of violence [authenteō ],” where authenteō (perfect participle) means “to commit violence” or “to murder.” which is in a tenth century manuscript as are other ancient writings.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 15 Nov 2008 at 1:36 am #
The following might be helpful. They are excerpts from Fr. Bill:
Otherwise, Sue’s fantasies of interpretation arise out of the “etymological root fallacy,” an interpretive error common among the amateurs and those with special agendas.
For an explanation of the root fallacy, click here . Also on this page is an explanation of an error dubbed “the overload fallacy.” It looks very much like what D. A. Carson has styled “the illegitimate totality transfer fallacy,” and Sue’s comments might well be an example of this interpretive fallacy as well.
Sue,
If you think that studying dictionaries is the way to do theology, I think we’ll always be talking past one another. It helps to read all the words, in the Biblical text, rather than run to a lexicon and cherry pick your way to the conclusion you want.
Sue,
There’s no problem with running to a lexicon. The problem arises when one gets there and finds a range of meanings, dependent on context, which the lexicon-user then ignores, resorting first to an interpretive criterion alien to the text in which the word appears. This generates any number of word-meaning fallacies, some of which I referred to in that link I provided. The “root fallacy” is one of the more common of these.
But, that’s the point of contention between egalitarians and complementarians (or patriarchalists or traditionalists). The latter believe (as the Church has always believed) that in the Bible God ordered relationships between the sexes (that ordering is named patriarchy), and that He reveals expectations He has of either sex, expectations that are different in many cases, particularly in the ways that the sexes relate to one another. Or, to God. Yes, God expects some things from men He does not expect from women, and vice-versa.
….
And, that’s why you and I use the lexicon differently. I am guided by a set of criteria obvious in the Bible that relates to God’s ordering of the relationships between the sexes, while you are guided criteria which discount (or, flatly reject) these same Biblical criteria.”
Sue on 15 Nov 2008 at 1:57 am #
TUAD,
You vastly misunderstand the situation. It is others who are running to lexicons. I cite the primary evidence that is available.
I note in the text of the Bible, this verse,
nicht als übers Volk herrschen, sondern werdet Vorbilder der Herde.
neque ut dominantes in cleris sed formae facti gregi et ex animo
Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being examples to the flock.
In the standard accepted lexicons in German authenteo is herrschen and in latin it is dominari.
What seems to be taught is that in 1 Peter 5:3 dominari is not an appropriate way to lead in church, but in 1 TImothy 2:12 it is. Do you agree with this treatment of the scriptures?
I note that my comments to Fr. Bill were on his ballerina boy post, where I remarked that the excellent woman was called the “ανδρεια” (manly) woman in Greek and the “forte” (strong) woman in Latin. It was just a bit of honest fun, and quite accurate. I don’t think there was any orgument about it. He said that he respected women for being strong. Perhaps the use of andreia was a little unusual, but only in fun. After all, it is quite legitimate to use the word as either manly or courageous. This was the main epithet for Ruth and the Proverbs 31 woman. But I did mean it as a play on words because of the ballerina and his claim that masculinity which he related to men and God was about chest hair and a beard. Or something of that sort I forget which. It was funny. I mean, he had intended to be funny. I am sure.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 15 Nov 2008 at 2:13 am #
This might be helpful as well:
Green Baggins, #25: “Sue, a couple of thoughts here. Firstly, the range of authenteo is by no means limited to negative “domineering.” That is one possibility, but by no means the only possibility. Even Baldwin, in his monumental, exhaustive study of the word did not conlude that domineer is an impossibility. See pages 49-51 of the second edition of _Women in the Church_. Simple, positively viewed “having authority” is a genuinely attested usage. Add to that Kostenberger’s unshaken (and basically unchallenged) study of the syntax of “neither this nor that” such that both activities are viewed either positively or both negatively (and it is quite apparent that teaching is viewed positively, since negative teaching has another word for it), then authenteo is viewed positively as simply having authority. That is then negatived such that women are not to have authority over men in the church.”
Sue, #96: “This is the first time I have posted on a site where people don’t read Greek. I am not used to working from commentaries. I really don’t know what else to say. I can’t show you how it works if you don’t read Greek.”
Green Baggins, #97: “I have had 7 years of Greek, Sue, including 3 years of classical Greek at St. Olaf College, and 4 years of NT Greek at Westminster Theological Seminary. What on earth made you think that I don’t read Greek?”
Green Baggins, #100: “Fancy that, Sue. Two people who both understand Greek coming to completely opposite conclusions about what the word means. I don’t think it is the first time. …
You still have not answered the grammatical argument of Kostenberger. His argument does not depend on the meaning of authenteo. In fact, his argument heavily influences how we should read the verb.”
Green Baggins, #101: “Sue, my confusion over two very similar names should not lead anyone to conclude that I don’t read Greek. This does not give me much confidence in your powers of logic.
Sue, are you truly teachable? Are you truly humble? I have tried exceedingly hard not only to listen to your arguments, but to all the egalitarian arguments. I have tried to answer your arguments. As sad as your experience with men in the past has been, it in no way constitutes any reason why I should be convinced by your arguments. This is not to downplay what you have experienced. The interpretation of passages of Scripture cannot be based on our experience. Rather, Scripture judges our experience.”
Green Baggins, #104: “No, Sue, I have not in the least sidestepped Philodemus. I argued that just because we do not have the original any longer does not mean that we don’t have it. So your argument about it not existing is not valid.
…
Contrary to your assertion, Sue, I am not side-stepping your arguments. Rather, you are side-stepping mine.”
From Galatians 3:28 and Feminism
Sue on 15 Nov 2008 at 2:25 am #
Green Baggins writes,
Simple, positively viewed “having authority” is a genuinely attested usage.
By what evidence? It is not published.
and it is quite apparent that teaching is viewed positively,
Not in Titus 1:11
What on earth made you think that I don’t read Greek?”
His repeated use of Andronicus instead of Aristonicus. It was very confusing.
You still have not answered the grammatical argument of Kostenberger.
Kostenberger could be right. If authentein means to compel or commit violence and therefore has a negative connotation, then didaskein could have a negative sense also, as it does in Titus 1:11. I don’t see a problem with this reasoning.
“Sue, my confusion over two very similar names should not lead anyone to conclude that I don’t read Greek. This does not give me much confidence in your powers of logic.
I am sorry but it was an honest mistake. I could not tell from his comments that he had studied Greek.
Sue, are you truly teachable? Are you truly humble?
I count among my teachers Waltke and Fee.
“No, Sue, I have not in the least sidestepped Philodemus. I argued that just because we do not have the original any longer does not mean that we don’t have it. So your argument about it not existing is not valid.
I don’t think there is even one theologian who accepts Philodemus. I posted it on my site and asked GB to translate it if he wanted to use it as evidence, but he declined.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 15 Nov 2008 at 2:28 am #
Sue and I have enjoyed discussing this issue in the past.
Here’s a sample:
Sue: “When are people going to understand that the greatest danger to women in America and all over the world is their own husband. Ask any emergency ward.
This is what women need protection from.”
Me: “To see such rancid bitterness manifest itself ….
Ai-yi-yi-yi-yi. Not good.”
Sue: “Sadly, this is a fact. It should not get in the way of confronting the meaning of authenteo.”
Sue: “The highest cause of mortality to a pregnant woman in America is homicide by the father of the baby. I was myself shocked. I am just citing facts, unpalatable facts.”
Me: “The highest cause of mortality to unborn babies in America is the decision by the mother of the baby to abort the baby. 1.3 million abortions per year in America. (2005 data). I was myself shocked. I am just citing facts, unpalatable facts.”
——
Tim Bayly offers the following:
“”Sue” claims to be an expert in Greek after many years of study and she has many citations she uses to bolster her idiosyncratic views. But here is how one New Testament scholar with the Ph.D. from Cambridge University sums up “Sue’s” own scholarship: “From what she has written here, I would not be able to say that “Sue” should be considered a reliable source of information for understanding Greek or for quoting other authors (like myself) fairly and with attention to context.” The evidence support[ing] this statement is insurmountable.
…
But then “Sue” added to my tension (and exasperation, really) by telling us that she was an abused wife who bore on her body the inevitable marks of patriarchy.
Of course, I was not exasperated because “Sue” talked about her abuse publicly; healing requires fellowship and love from brothers and sisters in Christ. Rather, I was exasperated because “Sue” used her abuse as a weapon in her war against the plain meaning of the Word of God and I knew from long experience that her bringing up her victimhood, legitimate though it may be, would be a straitjacket it would be exceedingly difficult to escape in dealing with her deceptions and errors here, publicly.”
Sue on 15 Nov 2008 at 2:28 am #
TUAD,
You are very good at intenet research. Have you found any citations for authentein that have been translated as “to have authority” for occurrences prior to the NT?
Sue on 15 Nov 2008 at 2:33 am #
If Christendom teaches doctrine which disempowers women then it has to be responsible for the fallout.
I will always come back and ask for evidence for the teachings of the church.
Sue on 15 Nov 2008 at 2:38 am #
Nobody cares what my education is. Either these are the only two citations which attest to the meaning of authentein or they are not.
BGU 1208 – to compel established by Baldwin and agreed to by Grudem
Scholia Graeca in Aeschylus, Eumenides 42a (first century B.C.): “The murderer, who had just committed an act of violence [authenteō ],” where authenteō (perfect participle) means “to commit violence” or “to murder.” which is in a tenth century manuscript as are other ancient writings.
Do you have any other occurrences that you think could join this list?
Kostenberger suggests it occurs only once or twice prior to the NT so I do not think that there are many more.
I am flexible on this, but “to have authority” is unattested.
Kathy on 15 Nov 2008 at 8:58 am #
(In edit mode) Eh, this comment went through. Okay, now that I’ve lost my last comment…
Vladimir on 15 Nov 2008 at 11:07 am #
Truth unites et al,
Lets put the shoe on the other foot. I have as much experience as Dr Wallace in reading Classical and Koine Greek texts. I have more understanding and expertise than your Cambridge associate. So there.
The fact of the matter is no one has settled this issue – exegetically. If the exegetes were arrayed along denominational lines the Methodists, the PCUSA ists, Anglicanismists [sic] the Pentecostalists, the libertine Baptists as well as the ignorant, backwoods plebs and sophistic secular humanistic feminists would all plead justification in the espousal of their misnomerd erudition.
Every and any English gloss that is offered to translate authenein is limited to the point of being misleading without a broader understanding of its context wherein which it is found and in particular the ecclesiology as defined and determined by St Paul’s definition and establishment of Christ’s Church’s structure upon and beyond the Apostolic foundation.
Look again at Dr Wallace’s list of alledged understandings of the words.
1. authentein means ‘usurp authority’ and women are not allowed to usurp a man’s authority;
2. ‘woman’ and ‘man’ should be translated ‘wife’ and ‘husband’; thus a single woman may be a pastor but a married woman may not;
3. oude forms a hendiadys so that ‘teach’ and ‘exercise authority’ mean ‘authoritatively teach’ while other kinds of teaching are OK;
4. didaskein…ouk epitrepo means ‘I do not currently permit’; thus, it would be acceptable to teach men at other times and thus the command is not universal;
5. authentein means to ‘murder’ (!); and ritual symbolic murder is not permitted to women, but instead they must respect their husbands;
6. ‘teach’ is absolute (with no object) and ‘exercise authority’ is specifically related to men; thus, the absolute prohibition of women teaching is contradicted by Titus 2.4 where older women teach younger women. This thus proves that the prohibition was never meant to be of universal applicability.
7. Paul is following rabbinic practices here and is wrong; on a theological trajectory, we need to make corrections to this practice, especially in light of Gal 3.28.
Look again at Eumenides. How do you know autheneo means commit murder apart from the context and not rape? Both are acts of extreme violence.
How do you know that “pax” means peace with various, shades of meaning in the NT, but in romana lex “pax romana” can mean “crushed bones” – yours.
Sue, please, consider further the closer and broader contexts in St Paul. Its doubtful that this will or has been done by the “superecclesiastics.”
Sue, I’m glad you are flexable on “to have authority over”. Me too. It is vague enough to require the reader to think and investigate further beyond the closer context into the broader one in order to understand St Paul.
Vladimir
Don Johnson on 15 Nov 2008 at 11:07 am #
Dan Wallace on 13 Nov 2008 at 11:46 pm wrote post 101. In it he points out that there are quite a few possible egal interpretations of 1 Tim 2:12 and that they are not all consistent, while there is one primary non-egal interpretation and it is consistent.
My take is that this frames the discussion so the non-egal interpretation appears best. But I do not frame it this way, and I invite everyone to consider my framing.
The first aspect is that we are not Timothy. Timothy was Paul’s spiritual son and as such would have a large shared context with Paul. When this happens, communication can be compressed, as the other party knows how to fill in the gaps. This shared context that we do not share is not the only challenge, it is also by Paul, who Peter said can be misunderstood in the 1st century, plus the challenges of reading a letter, which is like half of a phone transcript, plus the challenges of Paul writing in a different culture and language than ours.
My take is that all these challenges in combination should make us humble about our ability to KNOW FOR SURE what Paul was saying when in addition to the above challenges, there are various choices to make for the verse in question, the ones that are illustrated by the egal possible interpretations Dr. Wallace listed.
For example, how do we KNOW epitrepo is used in the permanent or temporary sense, i.e., as “permitting” or “now permitting”?
How do we KNOW authentein has a positive or negative connotation?
Why did Paul use the hapax authentein?
How do we KNOW disdaskein has a positive or negative connotation (to teach or to teach falsely)? There is evidence for either use in the NT, as Sue points out.
How do we KNOW there is a hendiadys or not? That is, is it one thing Paul is discussing or 2?
My take is Timothy DID know the answers to all these questions (and similar for other verses) but we are not Timothy! So we need to be humble. Yes there is a way to navigate through all the choices and end up with a non-egal interpretation; but there are also ways to navigate through all the choices and end up with an egal interpretation!
So which is the correct original meaning for the whole statement? I do not see how anyone can say for sure, there is simply not enough info. They might be able to say something like “I have 80% confidence that it means X.” but I do not see how anyone can say “I have 100% confidence that it means X.” When one is not sure, then the right answer is that one is not sure.
When non-egals make their choices that end up with a non-egal interpretation, egals can claim that is because of their agenda. And vice versa. Both sides have an agenda. Everyone wants to be objective but each person will have their own worldview coming into the process of interpretation, it cannot be helped.
This is one reason I think it is SO IMPORTANT to be gracious to those with the other viewpoint, as Dr. Wallace points out. And I appreciate that greatly. Thank you.
Sue on 15 Nov 2008 at 12:13 pm #
Vladimir,
I remain flexible about meeting further occurrences of authentein. So far, none suggest “to have authority”
There is BGI 1208 to compel or prevail, to make someone do something.
Scholia in A. is to commit an act of violence, murder or rape.
Tetrabiblos is the control in astrological terms.
Hippolytus is to treat someone in some way that accords with end times anarchy and violence.
Even if we were to come up with a neutral notion of dominate, then 1 Peter 5:3 clearly says not to do that. Just don’t do it.
This is the evidence of egalitarians. Where is the opposing evidence?
Surely if women are to be placed under authority, they have the right to see the evidence that this is what God’s wants in their life. Otherwise, it means women spend their life deciding on each decision of the man in authority over them, is this just a positive or neutral action, or is this a sinful act that I am being asked to do, and do I now resist for the sake of reisting sin.
Surely, this is not a secondary issue in the lives of women. Why are women not worthy of being given a straight answer? Why something so momentous in their life and nobody bothers to give them any justification.
Basically, I get the answer – “because I say so.”
Surely if there is any doubt, a scintilla of a doubt, why would anyone impose such suffering on women in the name of God.
World Vision has a policy to promote equal participation of women in all decision-making as a preventive of poverty and suffering of women and children. Shouldn’t the church want to export this same notion.
But the church exports the ESV Study Bible which says in one article that the Father plans, directs and sends, and the son is subject to the fathers authority, and obedient to his will. At the end of the paragraph is suggests that this is the primary model for equality in human relationships.
I ask women – do they want to be planned for, directed and sent by the man in their life? Do they have to be at all times subject to his authority, and obedient to his will? Is this what we want all women in the world to do, to be obedient to men and sent by them? Is this Christianity?
What about the prisoners, the poor, the lame, and the blind? Those raped and damaged? Not a word about them.
Sue on 15 Nov 2008 at 12:24 pm #
Don,
I agree with you that no one can know for sure. However, I simply feel that since those who want to deprive women of authority cannot know for sure, then they ought to seek the good of women. This is the God given task of men.
If it could be proven that women were less intelligent, more gullible, unable to make their own decisions, unfit to drive cars, unfit to lead, unfit to care for their own families, unfit to make decisions for their children, = less capable than men – then put women under care. Widows and single parents like myself would need to be placed under the guardianship of a male, and so on.
But, the vast number of people involved in the welfare of women and children around the world, say that women need to have equal participation in decision-making. I stand with those people.
But, Don, I appreciate your comments.
Don Johnson on 15 Nov 2008 at 12:32 pm #
My unstated conclusion is that since I am unsure exactly what 1 Tim 2 means, then I move up to the higher level Kingdom principles and choose to interpret it along the lines of justice and freedom.
If one is going to interpret it as permanent restrictions and hierarchy, then one would want to be very sure, I would think.
Sue on 15 Nov 2008 at 12:44 pm #
Vladimir,
I know you are saying that I don’t address the broader context. Let me mention few thoughts.
Paul’s life was full of women who may or may not have been single or widowed, but who clearly were the heads of their own households, in terms of being independent agents who opened their house to others without referring to a husband.
Lydia, the elect lady, Nympha were hostesses of their own home. Phoebe was a prostatis and diakonos. These can be translated as minister and leader. Prostates is our guardian and defender. There are some English translations, older ones, which translate prostatis as defender or protector. Prostates is also the temple officer and worship leader. Food for thought.
Women clearly had some authority, and authority which they could use on the behalf of men. This is absolutely certain from the text. It is also clear from Paul’s writing that authority was not “over” others, but for their sake. Women exercised authority for the sake of men all the time in the Bible. And likewise, men ought to exercise authority for the sake of women.
All the rhetoric of men having authority “over” women reads like Aristotle, because women were a little limited in decision-making dept. the boule, βουλη right. So suggests Aristotle.
But this is not taught in the NT.
I have a Greek Bible, the Vamva Bible, perhaps you are familiar with it. It says that andronicus and Junia were επισημοι μεταξυ τοις αποστολοις. Does this not give you the distinct impression that Junia was actually one of the apostles.
My question for you is why have men in America today felt that it was necessary to translate Romans 16:7 as Junia was well-known to the apostles? Clearly someone wants to avoid the suggestion that women had some kind of leadership role.
Since the ESV, HSCB, and NET Bibles say that Junia is only well-known to the apostles, we are not even reading the same Bible, so we don’t have the same context. It is regrettable.
Sue on 15 Nov 2008 at 1:41 pm #
I was rereading my comment and see a rather glaring error.
In the Vamva Bible Romans 16:7 contains the expression
οιτινες ειναι επισημοι μεταξυ των αποστολων.
I misremembered.
kathy on 15 Nov 2008 at 5:06 pm #
‘I think in the least that vv 13 and 14 need to be read as referring to the
Genesis narrative.’
Since Paul switched from ‘Eve’ in v.13 *back* to ‘ woman’ in v.14, in the very
least it is possible that he had in mind the same specific woman of vv.11 & 12,
saying that ‘this woman’ is deceived or deluded and in sin.
‘Whether Paul meant for the statement about deception to apply to all women
is another matter.’
Did Paul use the grammatical singular genericaly for all women consistently
throughout the passage? The non-egal claim is that he did use it genericaly in
vv 11 & 12, but what about v.14? Did he use Eve as representative for all
women? How can we know for sure? If he did then Adam is represenative of
all men. Women will come out of their weakness, as Eve did but men will not
as Adam did not.
‘This, in fact, is what really troubles me about the text.
If Paul is anchoring his reason for why women should not teach men to
Genesis 2 (the ‘for’ at the beginning of v 13 most naturally means that he’s
explaining why a woman should not be permitted to teach a man), then he’s
building his argument on something that goes beyond the church and beyond
the fall.’
I’d say that first of all because Paul switches from plural ‘women’ (vv.9 & 10)
to singular ‘a woman’ (beginning with v.11) that it’s possible he is stopping
a specific woman from teaching a specific man (her husband). And then
we should consider one of the reasons he gives is ‘for Adam was created
first then Eve and Adam was not deceived.’ Cheryl Schatz has given her view,
in her DVD set, Women in Ministry, Silenced or Set Free, for why Paul gives
this as one reason.
The question is, why was Adam not deceived? We know he was created first
and we do NOT need Paul to tell us this to read it for ourselves in the
Genesis narrative. Can we gather from the narrative the reason why Adam
was not deceived? You bet! If Paul was able to tie it into Adam’s creation then
we too can read the narrative and should be able to do the same! Paul says
that he was created first and ties that to his not being deceived. So what
about Adam’s priority of creation protected him from being deceived? Paul
does NOT connect him not being deceived to his nature of being a man, and
neither does Paul connect the woman’s deception to her nature of being a
woman. And we know that the woman of v.11 & 12 is commanded to learn
and could be the same woman of v.14 (which appears to be the plain reading).
So in v.14, someone IS said to be deceived. There is no escaping that. The
options are that ‘woman’ is 1) a reference to Eve (Paul unnecessarily switches
from refering to the first woman of the garden by using her proper name to
calling her ‘woman’), 2) generic for all women (as thought to be the meaning
in vv. 11 & 12 by non-egals and would at least be consistent), 3) the same
woman of vv. 11 & 12 (also a consistent interpretation).
In v.14, about this woman it is said that she ‘has become deceived and has
fallen into sin’. So to me this sounds like a present situation whereas Eve is
dead, and she came out her deception anyway.
‘As for the switch between singular and plural, this is simply a natural way to
write as a stream of conscientiousness. In the next chapter, Paul speaks of
the bishop in the singular, but the deacons in the plural. And yet, the early
church had a multiplicity of elders/bishops, not just one. We shouldn’t make
too much out of the number there.’
What switch between singular and plural are you referring to? Paul made a
switch from plural ‘women’ (vv.9 & 10) to singular ‘a woman’ (v.11) and
continued throughtout the passage with the grammatical singular, ending
with a singular reference, ’she’ (v.15).
Those are my thoughts in reply to your response, Dan, but I think I have one
other comment about the differences of interpretation that I’d like to post.
kathy on 15 Nov 2008 at 6:13 pm #
There is a point I would like to get across.
Since there are options that we have to choose from when interpreting Paul’s
use of the grammatical singular throughout the passage, the 2 preferred
being singular specific (whether woman of wife) or generic for all women
(or wives), and since someone IS deceived (v.14), and since we can all agree
on principle that deceived persons should not teach, and that they should
learn (v.11) therefore what we have in the very least is that Paul stopped 1
woman (who was deceived) from teaching 1 man.
What needs to be done then is that contextual support be given for the idea
that Paul stopped more than 1 woman. At what point in the context alone,
after he makes the plural (v10) to singular (v11) switch does one find the
idea that Paul also intended to stop all women from teaching, even having
ended with a singular reference, ’she’? Even in the very least Paul could have
been using Eve to show that 1 woman was deceived and was reason for why
she should not teach. It’s a given that Paul stopped AT THE VERY LEAST one
woman. Anyone can claim the generic option to interpret Paul with but where
is the contextual support and what contextual support proves it?
From The Balcony on 15 Nov 2008 at 6:33 pm #
Whew – there have been some complex verbiage and ideology flying around this post the last day or so.
Scott, I appreciate your words: “I am saying that the scripture invites layers of response – to choose to respond to governance issues at the expense of the gospel defeats the mission of the church.” This was the point I also hoped to make. The gospel should always be our primary focus and when non-essentials divide us in such extreme ways, the gospel is masked behind the veil of mediocrity and humanity.
This subject really is simple. It doesn’t take pages and pages of exegesis to understand one little passage in the light of the whole totality of scripture. I don’t believe you have to be a theologian to understand it.
Mar 10:15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
God knew that even children could understand his gospel message. God knew that a child would not argue and exegete just to be shown correct. A child trusts his father to lead.
Gal. 3:28 cannot be overlooked. The view soaring above the entirety of scripture cannot be ignored as you dig into one small verse. There is a big expansive picture that scripture paints for us — and there are the nuances of individual text which intrigue us. One does not exist without the other.
I do see that as the conversation becomes more technical, God view is often seen less and man’s words/opinions desire to be heard more. Kind of reminds me of the Pharisees and how they argued with Jesus about all of the technicalities of the Jewish law. Jesus simply says — come to me as a child. I will reside in you and teach you all of my ways — whether you are Jew, Greek, man, woman. I created each of you in my image. You are my child – a reflection of me.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I believe in contending for the faith. I believe in studying God’s Word to be approved – accurately handling the word of truth. I believe in the value of honest theologians. But there is a big picture here….and it’s getting buried.
Vladimir, regarding your comment: “If the exegetes were arrayed along denominational lines the Methodists, the PCUSA ists, Anglicanismists [sic] the Pentecostalists, the libertine Baptists as well as the ignorant, backwoods plebs and sophistic secular humanistic feminists would all plead justification in the espousal of their misnomerd erudition…”
This comment puts you in the category of a triumphant complementarian, as Dan described it. Not all churches within denominations are alike. I now go to a USA Pres church — but we are extremely conservative and not at all like the bulk of the denomination. There is a solid movement within the denomination to retain its conservative roots — it is a struggle for us, the minority, but better to contend for the faith rather than to flee to another denomination which is also struggling with other issues. No one was more surprised than I was to find the struggling remnant of conservatives within the USA Pres. You cannot lump all churches into one pretty mold.
By virtue of association, you called us “ignorant” and “backwoods”. Even ignorant and backwoods people love God. With child-like faith, they walk faithfully in the ways of God…..perhaps even more than many educated individuals who use text to justify their means and opinions.
Christians who love the Lord desire to humbly walk before our God —- examining each footstep to see whether we remain in the faith. I, as an egalitarian do this. I see complementarians who do this. I know many egalitarians AND complentarians who are intelligent, humble and full of the Spirit of God. To label egalitarians as ignorant and backwoods (because you included us in that category) is inaccurate and well…..
Let us focus on: 1 Peter 3:8-16
James 1:27
1 Peter 4:10-11
Finally — As I ponder this topic today, I recall this verse: 1Ti 3:10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless.
The question is: who then, is blameness enough to be a deacon?
If we nitpick this passage, we would understand that no one is blameless — thus we would have no deacons. The argument of gender is just as simple as 1 Tim. 3:10. Fly above the passage and see God’s bigger picture for His people. We have a God who loves a sinful, repentant people — all of them.
Don Johnson on 15 Nov 2008 at 6:54 pm #
One thing that is a puzzle about these verses is that Paul refers to Eve in a curious way. The woman once she was named Eve was not deceived, she was only deceived BEFORE being named Eve and then recognized she was deceived when questioned by God, which shows she was no longer deceived.
So I see it as entirely possible that “woman” in the next verse is NOT Eve.
kathy on 15 Nov 2008 at 7:20 pm #
Hey Don, thanks for pointing that out. VERY interesting. Something to think
about.
Cheryl Schatz on 15 Nov 2008 at 11:02 pm #
If I may, I would like to present my objections to the teaching that the Holy Spirit through Paul was restricting women from teaching the bible to men. I think that these questions are worthy of being asked because if we are going to restrict the gifts of our sisters in Christ from using their God-given gifts for the common good, then we need to think long and hard that perhaps we have misunderstood Paul and one unique verse. I am very interested in anyone willing to dialog on these questions and willing to provide well thought-out answers:
1. If Paul meant to restrict all women for all time from being able to teach the bible to their Christian brothers, then why did he place this “law” (1 Timothy 2:12) in a book that was written to one person instead of putting it into a book clearly written to the entire church?
2. Why didn’t Paul repeat this universal prohibition in another one of his books so that we could be sure it wasn’t just a problem situation in Ephesus?
3. Why is this “universal” law not repeated by any of the other apostles if it is for all Christian women for all of history?
4. Every single law of God is given more than one time in scripture because all universal law has a second witness. Paul said in Philippians 3:1 that repetition is for our safety and he was glad to repeat things so that it was “safe”. Why did Paul never repeat the universal “law” against women teaching the bible to men?
5. Every universal “law” has its origin in the Old Testament. Where is the origin of the universal “law” that prohibits women from teaching the bible to men? How come no OT woman had a law that forbid her from teaching the bible to men?
6. How come if 1 Timothy 2:12 is a universal law that prohibits every Christian woman from teaching the bible to men, that Paul didn’t place it in a passage that was completely understandable? Why did he place this “law” in a passage that has a word that is unique and hard to understand? (authentein) How come Paul ends the prohibition with the conclusion in verse 15 which is admittedly one of the hardest passages to understand with changing grammar (she AND they) and which attaches the issue of salvation to the prohibition? How is the “law” against women teaching men the bible connected to salvation (verse 15) and how is it connected to deception (verse 14)?
7. Was Paul trying to make it difficult to understand that the prohibition was for all women for all of time? If not then how come he put the prohibition in a passage that has so many people confused about whether it is cultural or for all time? Don’t you think that if it was for all women for all of time that Paul would have made it clear by repeating the prohibition in a letter to the church?
8. Why didn’t Paul make it clear why women before Christ had more freedom than women after Christ? How come women before Christ could teach the bible to men and were not forbidden but after Paul’s epistle (and hence after Christ) women couldn’t teach the bible to men? Does it make sense that women after Christ’s coming had less freedom than before his coming?
9. If one is going to restrict women from using their gifts for the entire body of Christ and require them to be prejudiced against their dear brothers in Christ, shouldn’t we have a reason why only women after Christ should be forced to be prejudiced and withhold their gifts from men? Where were the Old Testament women not forced to be prejudiced and withhold their teaching gifts from men? If we cannot answer these questions, then maybe we should reason this one through. Why would God make teaching the bible a sin depending on who is listening to the godly teaching?
These are questions that I have asked many people and I have not had answers yet. I trust that we can agree that my sincere questions deserve to be answered.
bethyada on 16 Nov 2008 at 2:29 am #
Several thoughts on reading thru these comments.
Having less disagreements in an egalitarian church is not evidence of its truthfulness.
Having a command a single time is not questionable, especially if it was already understood and so the matter was raised in response to incorrect practice.
Commands for women to submit are not commands for men to enforce this. One can only act on the commands they are given and men are not told to force there wives into submission anywhere in Scripture that I am aware of.
Righting injustice in the name of “justice” can be very dangerous and can lead to horrific evils. We are to do justice, but to force the end of injustices on a global scale is highly likely to lead to worse injustice. Review the life of Absalom.
I don’t think women should not teach because of increased risk of deception (even if that is likely to be true). This is probably not was Paul means about Eve’s deception as that would suggest they should never teach and they are allowed to teach (at the least) women and children, and probably individuals. I think Moo’s comments are helpful here.
There are some accepted differences between men and women so equal in value different in function has legitimate meaning, even if it is not agreed to.
There are other passages than just Timothy.
bethyada on 16 Nov 2008 at 2:45 am #
My concern about the egalitarian position on Timothy is that it doesn’t take into consideration other Scripture that points away from their position. In the passage on Ephesians marriage is said to be a type of Christ and the church, therefore the relationship of a husband to a wife has some difference to a wife to her husband.
“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. (Ephesians 5)
Further, Peter tells wives to obey their husbands.
For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening. (1 Peter 3)
So if Paul is forbidding teaching by women in the church to men because he wants the structure of leadership to be reflective of the godhead and/ or the relationship of the Church Bride to Christ, then this is consistent with these other passages. Ie. even if the egalitarians are right about Timothy, these other positions suggest that the axioms of egalitarianism in the church are still incorrect.
Sue on 16 Nov 2008 at 2:45 am #
There are some accepted differences between men and women so equal in value different in function has legitimate meaning, even if it is not agreed to.
Are you with Aristotle in believing that men are made for command and women for subordination?
Sue on 16 Nov 2008 at 2:49 am #
Why does Paul have female friends that are not under any male head.
Phoebe is his prostatis, protector, or defender.
Lydia was the head of her household.
The elect lady represented a group of Christians.
Nympha had a church in her home.
Chloe represented a group of Christians.
How was this pattern which Paul recognized reflective of male headship? Clearly Paul did not abide by that, but preached to leading women and had women as coworkers without assigning them to be under men.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 16 Nov 2008 at 8:57 am #
If I may, I would like to present my objection to the teaching that the Holy Spirit through Divinely-Inspired Scripture was unclear in providing transcendent and normative instructions on the ordering of relationships between men and women such that the direct implication is that the Holy Spirit is inadequate and insufficient as a Divine Communicator. Such teaching is a grave insult to the Godhead.
Dr. Gordon Clark wrote the following:
“The Protestant Reformation, for all its opposition to Romanism, never questioned the practice of ordaining men only. Now, if this practice has continued from the time of Abraham down to 1960 or thereabouts, those who are innovators surely must bear the burden of proof. The Westminster Confession indeed says, ‘All Synods…may err, and many have erred.’ Therefore it is theoretically possible that the Reformed Presbyterian Church is in error. But when the agreement is worldwide over 4,000 years, it is, I repeat, extremely improbable. Therefore a mountainous burden of proof rests on those who advocate the ordination of women.”
scott gray on 16 Nov 2008 at 10:55 am #
hey tu…ad–
how was your summer? do anything fun? read any good books?
scott
Truth Unites... and Divides on 16 Nov 2008 at 11:32 am #
Apostate atheist Scott Gray,
Thanks for asking. I read the True Woman Manifesto and it’s a God-glorifying document.
May everyone in Christendom affirm this manifesto.
scott gray on 16 Nov 2008 at 12:53 pm #
i doubt that, very much.
scott gray on 16 Nov 2008 at 1:11 pm #
t–
you get any fishing done this summer?
a. a. scott
Don Johnson on 16 Nov 2008 at 1:57 pm #
bethyada,
Eph 5 and 1 Pet 3 need to be understood in their cultural context.
1 Pet 3 does not actually say a wife is to obey her husband. We can also look at the example of Sarah WHEN she obeyed and also that Abraham obeyed her. The 1st century context is that wives were expected and even required to obey, but a believing wife COULD NOT obey her husband on the matter of household “gods”, she had to refuse.
Eph 5 tells a husband to serve his wife and uses the example of Christ serving the church. All the examples are serving examples, going beyond serving your wife is not warranted by Scripture.
kathy on 16 Nov 2008 at 1:57 pm #
‘Commands for women to submit are not commands for men to enforce this.
One can only act on the commands they are given and men are not told to
force there wives into submission anywhere in Scripture that I am aware of.’
In 1 Tim 2, Paul is not commanding men.
Don Johnson on 16 Nov 2008 at 2:31 pm #
1 Tim 2:8 is for men, before that for all.
kathy on 16 Nov 2008 at 3:00 pm #
Oops.
In 1 Tim 2, vv 11-15, Paul is not commanding men.
Vladimir on 16 Nov 2008 at 5:19 pm #
Sue,
This is the major fallacy within the egalitarian camp.
1. The present active indicative use by St Paul is in the present tense. But what is being overlokked here is the “aspect” of the verb.
The “aspect” refers to an action that is “incomplete.” St Paul’s prohibition is viewed as incomplete, i.e., abiding for the present but continuing unto an undetermined point which is undisclosed. Since there is *no evidence* that St Paul has revoked his own prohibition, the prohibition abides. It has never been revoked.
2. Your look at the broader context is wholesome and welcomed. But you have jumped the fence too soon to Romans 16. There is still work to be done in Chapter 3 of 1 Timothy and even Titus.
In chapter 3 of 1 Timothy St Paul uses the verb PROhISTHNAI [PRO + hISTHNAI] referring to the husband who qualifies as a possible “overseer” in the Church. This “overseer” is viewed as a hWS QEOU OIKONOMOS in Titus. This activity of the husband of “standing before, leading, representing” his own house(hold) is indicative of a true “overseer,” just as this godly deamenor is indicative of his activity as “hWS QEOU OIKONOMOS/EPISKOPOS.”
Sue, it is vain to argue from a single parent perspective , because either a man or woman could be single. St Paul makes it plain that this ecclesiastical office is to be filled by a worthy male person who is “the husband of one wife.”
The same can be said about St Paul’s delineation of the character traits required for the office of a deacon (DIAKONOS) – MIAS GUNAIKOS ANDRES K.T.L.
I might note as St Paul has seen fit to require, that the deamenor and carriage of these “wives” of such individuals is also quite important and a sine quo non to the office of either “overseer” or “deacon.”
Re: Romans 16
I’m not quite sure which Greek text you are using which reads οιτινες ειναι επισημοι μεταξυ των αποστολων. I’m using NA27 and the text reads somewhat differently.
Yes, in Romans chapter 16 St Paul’s praise and enthusiasm overflows with great abundance for his fellow believers in Christ.
Yes, he refers to Phoebe as DIAKONON THS EKKLHSIAS and even as PROSTASIS POLLWN EGENHQH KAI EMOU AUTOU.
Do you remember PROISTHNAI from the Pastorals? And what it means there and how it is used?
DIAKONOS is a general term throughout most of the NT. It is even used in reference to St Paul himself. It is only in the Pastorals that DIAKONOS has become some sort of technical term – referring to an office designated for men. Remember St Paul is establishing Church order and hierarchy.
In Phillipians 4:3 and Romans 16:6 the individuals referenced there are co-workers with St Paul’s labors in the Lord (This could equally be said of all the saints – in one form or fashion – but lets keep things on an historical level).
In Romans 16:7, the famous question arises as to what does EPISTHMOI EN TOIS APOSTOLOIS mean. It is clear that this designation comes from the other apostles, but such as St Paul himself concurs with.
EPISTHMOI can not mean “numbered” or equal among” in verse 7, simply because the APOSTOLH is foundational and the number already fixed. As far as office goes, neither Andronicus or Junia qualify as an apostle of Jesus Christ.
Nevertheless, it is most certainly true they both, like Phoebe, were well respected with great enthusiasm by St. Paul himself.
I hope this helps.
One further note. The liberal denominations that I referred to earlier have taken it upon themselves to “speak where Scripture does not speak.” In accordance with the “spirit of the times, have widen their egalitarian belts along the lines of the world’s equal rights for women such as permission to smoke cigarettes, the right to vote, etc. They have folded to worldly pressures in preferrence to the infallible, inerrant wriiten word of God.
I’m sorry, but they are apostate on this issue at least. If not, let St Paul render his pronouncement in writing.
Vladimir
Sue on 16 Nov 2008 at 6:09 pm #
Vladimir,
This is the major fallacy within the egalitarian camp.
1. The present active indicative use by St Paul is in the present tense. But what is being overlokked here is the “aspect” of the verb.
I assume that you are addressing this to someone else. I contend that authentein means only compel, dominate, control or commit violence and that St. Paul would never allow this at any time.
2. Your look at the broader context is wholesome and welcomed. But you have jumped the fence too soon to Romans 16. There is still work to be done in Chapter 3 of 1 Timothy and even Titus.
In chapter 3 of 1 Timothy St Paul uses the verb PROhISTHNAI [PRO + hISTHNAI] referring to the husband who qualifies as a possible “overseer” in the Church. This “overseer” is viewed as a hWS QEOU OIKONOMOS in Titus. This activity of the husband of “standing before, leading, representing” his own house(hold) is indicative of a true “overseer,” just as this godly deamenor is indicative of his activity as “hWS QEOU OIKONOMOS/EPISKOPOS.”
Perhaps I miss your intent here. Let me ask if you would like to compare this to the role of Phoebe as προστατις, cognate of προστατης, usually translated into English as defender, along with βοηθος, as champion.
These two words βοηθος and πρστατης are used as titles for Christ alongside “saviour” and “high priest.” Here is how the words were used in 1 Clement 36:1.
Αυτη η οδος, αγαπητοι, εν η ευρομεν το σωτεριον ημων, Ιησουν Χρστον, τον αρχιερεα των προσφορων ημων, τον προστατην και βοηθον της ασθενειας ημων.
This is the way, beloved, in which we found our salvation; even Jesus Christ, the high priest of our oblations, the champion and defender of our weakness. tr. Charles Hoole 1885
This is the way, dearly beloved, wherein we found our salvation, even Jesus Christ the High priest of our offerings, the Guardian and Helper of our weakness. tr. J. B. Lightfoot.
So here, in an old fashioned translation, we find that prostates, the word for Phoebe was translated “champion” and the word for Eve, boethos was “defender.”
In like manner, we see that the wife is to οἰκοδεσποτεῖν her own house, just as the other householders throughout the scriptures were to do.
As men are to manage their households, so women too manage their households. As there are leading men, there are leading women.
Sue, it is vain to argue from a single parent perspective , because either a man or woman could be single. St Paul makes it plain that this ecclesiastical office is to be filled by a worthy male person who is “the husband of one wife.”
You have added the word male as you know that the word is not in the Greek, but aner. Is he the husband of one woman? Yes. Fine. Would you deny from leadership in the church every unmarried or widowed man? Must a man be a husband?
I would assume that Paul had no polyandrous women clammering to lead in church.
Re: Romans 16
I’m not quite sure which Greek text you are using which reads οιτινες ειναι επισημοι μεταξυ των αποστολων. I’m using NA27 and the text reads somewhat differently.
I clearly explained that this is the 19th century Vamva version of the Greek NT used in Greece. I had thought that you would be familiar with this version. Greek literature from the 1st to 21th century have agreed that Junia is an apostle of some kind along with Andronicus. The meaning of this word is broad in Greek. But it is a hobby of others to demote Junia for no particular reason than that a woman should not have this office. There is no point in denying what the Greek actually says. I do not see why this is done.
I have lost the thread of your further comments but will return to them if you wish.
Thank you so much for a stimulating exchange and if I appear to have avoided anything it is a function of time. I will be happy to come back to it.
Sue
Sue on 16 Nov 2008 at 6:30 pm #
In accordance with the “spirit of the times, have widen their egalitarian belts along the lines of the world’s equal rights for women such as permission to smoke cigarettes, the right to vote, etc. They have folded to worldly pressures in preferrence to the infallible, inerrant wriiten word of God.
I missed this. Are you saying that women should not have the right to vote?
Kathy on 16 Nov 2008 at 6:37 pm #
‘So if Paul is forbidding teaching by women in the church to men because he
wants the structure of leadership to be reflective of the godhead and/ or the
relationship of the Church Bride to Christ, then this is consistent with these
other passages. Ie. even if the egalitarians are right about Timothy, these
other positions suggest that the axioms of egalitarianism in the church are
still incorrect.’
First it needs to be supported contextualy and then proven that Paul
was prohibiting more than 1 woman. It is a given that he was stopping at
least 1 woman.
Paul gives reasons in the passage itself for why he makes the prohibition and
reasons he does not give are that he wants leadership to be
reflective of the Godhead (whatever that means) or Christ’s relationship to
the church.
Don Johnson on 16 Nov 2008 at 8:15 pm #
The second qualification: “Faithful spouse” (3:2)
The second qualification in the list deals with the
overseer’s married life. Careful research has shown that
this qualification means that whether one is a husband or
a wife it is important to be a “faithful spouse.” It requires
that an overseer, if married, be faithful and be “a one-spouse
kind of person.”
According to Lucien Deiss (notes to the French
Bible, the TOB, Edition Intégrale, p. 646, note a), this
Greek phrase was used in Asia Minor, on both Jewish
and pagan gravestone inscriptions, to designate a woman
or a man, who was faithful to his or her spouse in a way
characterized by “a particularly fervent conjugal love.”
When I read Deiss’ comment about how this phrase
was used on ancient grave inscriptions in Turkey, where
Paul and Timothy ministered, I confirmed it with him
myself, reaching him by telephone in Vaucresson, France.
Some might find this insight into 1 Timothy 3:2
surprising because modern versions of the Bible
translate this Greek phrase as – “husband of one wife” –
making this qualification appear to be restricted to men
only! Instead, rightly understood, this qualification is
about faithfulness in marriage by a Christian spouse. It is
not saying that oversight is “for men only.”
Pages 87-88
Think Again about Church Leaders by Bruce C. E. Fleming
also in Familiar Leadership Heresies Uncovered by Bruce Fleming.
—————-
This shows the term was seen symmetrically to include both men and women.
bethyada on 17 Nov 2008 at 3:49 am #
bethyada Commands for women to submit are not commands for men to enforce this. One can only act on the commands they are given and men are not told to force there wives into submission anywhere in Scripture that I am aware of.
Kathy In 1 Tim 2 [11–15], Paul is not commanding men.
Correct. But then I wasn’t referencing 1 Tim, I was referencing this thread
Don 1 Pet 3 does not actually say a wife is to obey her husband.
Well this is going to go off topic, but it does.
:: Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands… For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.
Wives submit, like holy wives submitted, example Sarah.
We can also look at the example of Sarah WHEN she obeyed and also that Abraham obeyed her.
Sarah lived a life of obeying Abraham. God told Abraham once to obey Sarah as this was not normal and the request seemingly unjust. God reassured Abraham that the outcome would be okay.
The 1st century context is that wives were expected and even required to obey, but a believing wife COULD NOT obey her husband on the matter of household “gods”, she had to refuse.
True, but how is this different from every other example. Obey authority unless they breach a direct command of a higher authority. This has always been the Christian approach, further this understanding is ancient. Note Rahab was commended.
Vladimir on 17 Nov 2008 at 10:13 am #
Sue,
1. My observation of the use by St Paul of the present active indicative of OUK EPITREPW/non permitto was one of “aspect.” It has as then both present/at present/in the present as well as abiding/constant/continual validity. His prohibition, as a foundational member of the Gospel, i.e., a member of the APOSTOLH, cannot be revoked except by him.
He has not done so, and if he were to do so, which he has not, it would have to be in writing in his own hand.
2. Re 1 Clement and the use of προστατην και βοηθον . Yes, Clement was familar with the Epistle to the Hebrews. A certain Clement was third Bishop of Rome. This Clement may have been the self same Clement mentioned by St Paul in Phillippians 4:3. If so, Clement was a προστατην within the Church at Rome just like a husband is of his own family.
Yes, it is true that in the Scriptures, St Paul makes it plain what authority the wife has within the house(hold) – according to himself, an apostle of Jesus Christ. οἰκοδεσποτεῖν is formed from the two Greek words OIKOS (house) and DESPOTHS (tyrant/despot). The Christain wife and mother rules the roost – so to speak, within the context that St Paul has described and prescribed for them.
3. Re: The Greek language. The continuity of the Greek language spans a time frame of over 5,000 years. The Koine dialect of this language prevailed from @ 333 B.C. to @ 333 A.D. The Koine dialect is a melting pot of all previous Greek dialects. It is not Attic Greek – like Plato used.
Within this broad and living language, authors selected words to express themselves. Homer employed words that others might not use, but refer to the same thing. So, for example, a decent woman in Homer is represented as “keeper of the hearth.”
I have noticed that you are heavily dependant on English translations for your understanding of the Greek text. Even your webpage focuses somewhat on the translation debate.
Be that as it may, βοηθον actually simply means “helper” and προστατην simply means “standing before”, hence the gloss “representative.”
Modern Greek is not the same as Classical or Koine Greek, although it is the same Greek language. Ask any native Greek speaker; to read Homer, or Aeschylus, or even the NT requires research and historical investigation. In fact, and this is a major point, the vocabulary of Homer and Aeschylus is so specialized that a special study is required to understand them properly. This is also true to a certain extent with the Koine NT. What a word meant in Homer or Plato, may or may not have the same meaning in the NT.
4. The departure of some prominent denominations (here and abroad) was based not upon a proper understanding of St Paul, but was motivated and initiated by an assimulation and concession to the ungodly, external, worldly “spirit of the times.”
Vladimir
Vladimir on 17 Nov 2008 at 12:02 pm #
Don Johnson,
I have heard of these inscriptions in Turkey before, but personally have not seen them. I would be interested in a verbatim quotation in the Greek as in appears on the graves if you can provide it.
The idea, however, of “faithful” in the marital relationship is not limited to “conjugal love.” St Paul makes it plain that a woman is to be faithful in all things (PISTAS EN PASIN, 1 Tim 3:11).
The text in 1 Tim 3:2 reads MIAS GUNAIKOS ANDRA and in Tit MIAS GUNAIKOS ANHR. The literal translation into English is husband of one wife. Obviously, if such is the case, they as one ae faithful to each other – exclusively.
Vladimir
Vladimir on 17 Nov 2008 at 12:15 pm #
Sue,
A note about the Greek word ANHR. This word means man, and by way of extension in certain contexts can mean husband for obvious reasons.
The Greek language also has words for male and female (cf Rom 1:26, QHLEIAI/females; ARSENES/males)
In certain contexts ANHR means the same thing as ANQRWPOS, a man/human being (whether male or female).
It is clear from the pastorals that ANHR means man – not a woman.
Re: Your question whether a unmarried man or widower be an EPISKOPOS or DIAKONOS. What does St Paul say – explicitly?
Further, would a man lose his Church office if his female spouse died. I would say no, BUT St Paul does not say explicitly. In fact, if such were the case, he would be free to remain unmarried (again) or remarry without violating St Paul’s apostolic regulations.
Vladimir
Vladimir on 17 Nov 2008 at 12:26 pm #
From the Balcony,
Thanks for your comments and if I offended you – I apologize. But I do not retract my remarks and have been sorely offended by those among those whom I have described thus:
“The fact of the matter is no one has settled this issue – exegetically. If the exegetes were arrayed along denominational lines the Methodists, the PCUSA ists, Anglicanismists [sic] the Pentecostalists, the libertine Baptists as well as the ignorant, backwoods plebs and sophistic secular humanistic feminists would all plead justification in the espousal of their misnomerd erudition.”
Historically, once a denomination takes the course that it has taken it never returns. But, God works miracles. It could happen.
But, I for one, will view it from afar.
Vladimir
Don Johnson on 17 Nov 2008 at 1:08 pm #
Vladimir,
Yes, I would like to see the inscriptions also, I gave you what I have. But I assume the scholar who reported it is not a liar, so I accept his claim of what he found. I agree this is not 2 witnesses, so it may not be compelling, but assuming it is out there, someone will find it again and report it.
Another point is given mias gunaikos andros means faithful spouse, this explains how Phoebe can be a diakonos. If Paul had meant to just refer to her being a servant, he would have used the fem. form. Diakonos also has the same guideline/requirement, as I am sure you know.
On 1 Tim 2 and Paul’s not permitting, if it was a specific woman, then any enduring limits are tied to her, even assuming they are enduring. Because of the repeated hesuchia, I read 1 Tim 2:11-12 as a coupled instruction. The command/imperative in this couplet is for the woman to be allowed to learn, radical for the culture; while learning she is not to teach, which is not too surprising.
Don Johnson on 17 Nov 2008 at 1:19 pm #
bethyada,
I agree that 1 Pet 3 is sometimes TAUGHT that it means wives are to obey, but it does not actually say that and I think it is important to see that it does not say it explicitly. It says wives are to submit which is different than obey, altho some teachers confuse the 2, as do some translations. One POSSIBLE way to submit in a specific instance is to obey, but obeying always is not taught.
On submission, all believers are to do that to all other believers, per Eph 5:21, so a husband is to submit to his wife and in some cases even obey her, ala Abraham.
The situation in that culture was it was hard for a wife to disobey her husband, so if she felt she needed to go along with her husband’s request, Peter is giving her encouragement, by pointing to Sarah, who went along sometimes and God protected her.
Don Johnson on 17 Nov 2008 at 1:42 pm #
Vladimir,
That is, the repeated hesuchia forms an inclusio.
Sue on 17 Nov 2008 at 1:46 pm #
Further, would a man lose his Church office if his female spouse died. I would say no, BUT St Paul does not say explicitly.
If Paul does not say that a single man can be an elder then I think that we have to assume that he cannot. Perhaps a widower would not have to give up being an elder. I think it is ckear that a man has to show that he can manage his family first.
Don Johnson on 17 Nov 2008 at 4:59 pm #
Sue,
This is exactly why I think “faithful spouse” makes the most sense. When one does not read an idiom as an idiom, one gets something that was not intended by the author.
Vladimir on 17 Nov 2008 at 6:39 pm #
Don Johnson,
Your interpretation of a single isolated woman under disciplinary action and remedial instruction is interesting, BUT, I think St Paul’s sense here is general, regulatory, and abiding.
Vladimir
Don Johnson on 17 Nov 2008 at 10:38 pm #
In other places Paul refers to specific people using generic terms. And he also refers to specific people using names. My take is that the difference when the ref. is negative is one of degree; you name the deceivers and do not name the ones that are not deceivers. It would certainly be ministry limiting to be named by Paul in a letter and that what his point, I think.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 17 Nov 2008 at 11:21 pm #
The Catholic Church has a biblical approach for handling heteropraxy on this issue:
“The Rev. Roy Bourgeois, the missionary priest from Lutcher who has devoted his career to opposing U.S. policy in Latin America, appears to be on the brink of excommunication from the Catholic church for participating in a ceremony that purportedly ordained a woman to the priesthood.
Bourgeois, a member of the Maryknoll order, said the Vatican recently gave him 30 days to formally recant his position in favor of women’s ordination, or face excommunication.
In a response posted on the Web site of the National Catholic Reporter, an independent newspaper, Bourgeois told the Vatican he could not in conscience do so. He said he believes a call to the priesthood comes from God and it is inappropriate for the church to interfere with it.
“Sexism, like racism, is a sin. And no matter how hard or how long we may try to justify discrimination, in the end, it is always immoral, ” he wrote.
The Catholic church teaches that men and women are of equal dignity and entitled to equitable treatment at home, work and in other arenas. But it holds that Christ defined the priesthood as an all-male corps modeled on himself, and it is powerless to change that.”
Excerpted from: Vatican might excommunicate activist priest from Lutcher for favoring the ordination of woman
Don Johnson on 18 Nov 2008 at 9:31 am #
Fortunately, we know the RCC revelation in this area is false, as Peter and John teach the priesthood of all believers. I am glad that the error of the RCC is so easily handled.