Hello Paul Copan,

Off topic…

FYI: There’s a challenge from John Loftus (former Christian, now turned atheist/agnostic[?]) to Christian Apologists to debate him, and your name is on the list.

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2008/12/christian-apologists-i-challenge-all-of.html

Care to comment please.

Blessings,
Aaron

I recently attended an ecumenical service in which many religions were represented by leaders in their fields.
We were all encouraged to, “Put aside our religious differences . . ” for the sake of peace. Peace, peace, peace. This is the buzzword, I guess.
So, if I get this right, I must deny the divinity and lordship of Christ, compromise the Word of God, and keep my conflicting beliefs to myself, in order to find “peace”.
This is much nicer than those “Nasty Atheists” who just want to eliminate all those who oppose them, and are waiting for the opportunity to do so.
Jesus warned a church about being lukewarm: this is what happens when something is abandoned in the open – it assumes the ambient temperature of the environment, and becomes insipid.
Perhaps settling to the world’s tepid spiritual degree is the newer, kinder atheism?

Jason:

As soon as you can present a valid mechanism to provide a naturalistic “evolution” of the human brain. That is something that would work and can be demonstrated to work in a laboratory.

No it wouldn’t. There is a very common misconception that any scientific theory must, in order to be valid, be reproducible in a laboratory. Obviously nobody can reproduce the evolution of the human brain in a lab, but then again nobody can reproduce almost any geological process you care to mention in a laboratory, either. This does not invalidate the field of geology.

The brain is not some sort of Darwinian ‘black box’; there is plenty of healthy speculation on how mammalian brains evolved (specifying ‘human brains’ is unnecessary), and it is by no means the biggest mystery in evolutionary theory.

Hello, all.

Thanks for your comments. From all that I’ve read about the explosion of Christianity in China, I think Ranger gets it right–even if there are “local flavors” (which we would expect since the gospel isn’t intended to obliterate cultures but to enhance and redeem them with all their variegation).

As for “hard-wiring,” sorry for the computer science language C. Barton. Yes, we are “fearfully and wonderfully made,” but this “hard-wiring” lingo seems central to the discussion–much like the universe’s “fine-tuning” isn’t quite like “the heavens declar[ing] the glory of God”! At any rate, I think that it is interesting that reductionistic arguments that attempt to eliminate God–”God is just a psychological crutch”; “belief in God is hard-wired into us to enhance survival”; “morality is a survival-enhancement mechanism”–don’t really eliminate God. Actually, these “scientific” claims–taken the right way, support what Christians have been saying all along. We’re not surprised that humans have a need for God, tend to be inclined toward the transcendent/supernatural, and that morality actually does contribute to survival enhancement (even if there is more to morality than this). Indeed, God’s existence helps us to make better sense of these things than if God doesn’t exist.

Sociologist Christian Smith pointedly asks: “Why in a spiritless and godless world would people ever conceive of spirits and gods in the first place?” Why voluntarily sacrifice our lives for some intangible “super-empirical” realm? The reason humans persist in looking beyond the finite realm in search of the source of coherence, order, morality, meaning, and guidance for life is because this realm doesn’t contain it. Humans, though embodied, are moral, spiritual beings with the capacity for self-transcendence and reflection upon our world and our condition; this in turn enables us to search for a world-transcending God. Naturalistic explanations that suggest that theology is a useful fiction—or, worse, a harmful delusion—fall short of telling us why this religious impulse is so deeply imbedded. If God exists, however, we have an excellent reason for thinking religion should exist.

So I wouldn’t say there’s a stalemate, Scott. The hardwiring argument, though intended by some to undermine God’s existence, it does no such thing. But beyond this point, in light of the universe’s beginning from nothing, we can speak of something external to the immense, complex, and delicately-balanced universe, which bespeaks non-physicality, great power, intelligence, creativity, and even personal features such as moral goodness. Even if we can’t infer a full-blown biblical theism from this, we’re well on our way. We have something outside the universe that offers us an explanation for/insight into the beginning of the universe–a beginning which science itself can’t predict. And that’s okay. There’s more to explanations than merely scientific ones. Of course, I’m not advocating resorting to theistic explanations of phenomena in the universe willy-nilly–but only when there are good philosophical or theological grounds for doing so.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion, folks!

Jason: Demonstrate God in the lab and we can talk . If a being with the attributes of God were the most straight forward explanation for human intelligence, then it would be a good theory. Unfortunately, inserting one saddles us with an infinitely more complex entity than that which we set out to explain. “Accepting” God can only be temporary. Eventually Science would have to delve into the next layer of causation – that’s what Science does. To say -Stop Here – would turn it into something else entirely. Is this the goal? Do we have any idea what would be lost? I would foresee Science becoming Philosophy – heavy on conclusions but light on facts.

Anyway, I am much more interested in Ranger’s observations.

Ranger: Do you think a burgeoning Chinese Christianity in rural areas would be familiar to your average Iowa Baptist? These urban converts are far more open to (seeking out?) Western influences. Chinese Christianity might seem familiar and yet still reflect the local “style.” Certain holdovers from traditional Chinese culture are inevitable but probably manageable. What differences do you see in the Chinese experience in Christianity?

As to being “hard-wired to believe in God”, I don’t think it swings the argument one way or the other. I used to think that this indicated a non-divine basis for religion but I have now come to view it as inconclusive. While God may have predisposed the human mind to believe in outside powers it is also “possible” that this is a by-product of the evolution of a successful strategy-generating-machine (i.e. the brain). Stalemate?

As soon as you can present a valid mechanism to provide a naturalistic “evolution” of the human brain. That is something that would work and can be demonstrated to work in a laboratory.

You can’t? Too bad.

Strangely enough direct creation by God would work if we accept at least the possibility of a being with the attributes of God. With computers and advances in AI we can demonstrate at least the possibility of creating a “brain” with some of the attributes we ascribe to intelligence. That of course takes the input of intelligent agents. I need no more attribute the origin of the human brain to naturalist processes than I would the AI that is produced by that brain.

The atheist must reject the creator a priori and is therefore forced to accept the inadequate explanation of “evolution dunnit” through lack of alternatives.

To use the term “stalemate” implies a tie between roughly equal forces. There is no level of equality between Christianity and atheism.

Scott and Greg,
As someone who lives and works in China, is familiar with the Chinese church in both underground and government forms, and understands the changes of the past ten years in this country, let me assure you that Christianity is growing rapidly in China. The common estimates of Chinese Christians are often based solely on registered Christians which is easily 5% at this point. The reality is that the underground church far surpasses the size of the government church.

In fact, the government sees it as a threat because estimates are that there are 100 million more Christians in China than there were merely twenty years ago. Furthermore, they realize that Christians outnumber communist party members. Some within the government are trying to partner with the church in order to keep the communist party alive, but others are trying more aggressive methods to eradicate the movement (jail, removing citizenship, forcing bosses to fire Christians, etc.)

What are the biggest problems for growth? It’s primarily an urban, educated movement and most of China is rural. Conversion to Christianity is seen as something that happens when kids go off to college, and its very common for me to go to a church and sit with a group of college professors on one side and college students on the other. Unfortunately, the gospel doesn’t seem to be reaching the rural, more uneducated sectors of society and ancestor worship is still very prevalent.

[...] Copan discusses it at Parchment and Pen: “The percentage of atheists in America revealed by, say, Gallup polls and the Baylor Survey, [...]

“Hard-wired”, being an analogy from computer science, doesn’t even come close to the real picture of how “wonderfully and fearfully” we are made!
The world at large (e.g. Darwin, Freud, et al) want to subvert and redirect the true course of scientific inquiry to support their atheistic foundations. Period. I mean, the world is still debating whether there is life after death!
I prefer to explain true religion and faith in God in terms of His self-revelation throughout the centuries, beginning with Abram, later named Abraham, and perfected in Jesus, our risen Messiah.
From the words of God come all good things necessary for their completion.
Allelujia!

Scott,

Actually, Christianity seems to be growing in China at a very fast rate, around 9% annually. As to Chinese Christians, most estimates range between 5% and 10%. Considering there are over a billion Chinese, those are some very big numbers!

China is the country to watch in regards to the faith. We may see China become the Christian capitol within our lifetime if these rates continue.