You did rephrase and ask extra questions in every interaction. This can be revisited.

Like Dan Wallace you criticize me for not answering one question in ten, questions that are thrown in later. Like him you do not acknowledge the questions I do answer, so you discourage me from following the questions.

Now, this one thing is clear. You are arguing from silence about the state of my soul.

I then must assume that you and others who argue against me from silence all agree on one thing – there is no evidence that authentein means ” to have authority.” There is silence on this one point.

Thank you all, for confirming what I thought.

I do care about Sue. I would love to see her come into a relationship with Christ. At the same time, I care about all who read her and might be falsely led by one who is not lead by the Lord Jesus. I make no absolute judgement of her. Only God knows her heart. Again I ask, did you read our entire conversation, and note the questions I ask and how she repeatedly avoids and diverts. Something tells me that this is because she knows she will loose her audience here if she tells the truth about herself, and answers all of my questions forthrightly. Decide for yourself. I have an obligation to my brothers and sisters in Christ who are here, to warn them and, to caution them.

Some of the opinions I hold are this:

- Junia was an apostle, whatever that means
- Phoebe was a deacon – as the Greek says
- Women were prophets throughout scripture
- Apostles and prophets are among the “greater” gifts, whatever that means.
- Lydia was the head of her household
- Chloe was the leader of a group of Christians
- 1 Tim. 2:12 authentein means to dominate
- Gen. 3:16 – Eve desired her husband
- 1 Cor. 14:34-35 were in the margin oper the NET bible
- women are intended by God to be primary protectors and providers for their family alongside men per Proverbs 31
- women are to be strong themselves, as well as affirm the strength of men
- in the gospels and 1 Corinthians women are to be oriented towards the kingdom of God rather than towards a husband and family

Actually I am orthodox after all. What a relief!

This says far more about you than about me. Clearly you have found nothing that I have written that you wish to cite as evidence of these things.

I feel sad for people who do not wish to talk about words, ideas and the scriptures but rather use labels against other people.

Whether Susan (with whom I agree often) introduced 1 Cor 14:35f to the discussion or not, is not the point. The point is she introduced a relevant piece of data that exhibits the continuity of St Paul’s theological understanding. 1 Cor 14:34f and 1 Tim 2:12 compliment one another (pun?). They are not diametrically opposed. St Paul is consistent with himself.

Yes, Sue, a spade is a spade; a deceiver a deceiver; a toddler a toddler; a sex pervert a sex pervert; a fag a fag.

Labels identify – rightly or wrongly, they identify.

I agree with Susan in that an unbeliever cannot rightly understand the Bible. But I will go so far as to say they can’t even understand anything else righty!

If you are a learner/neophyte/inquirer, then you should ask a question and in silence wait for instruction. I would, if I were in the dark or had doubts about something. Were not the disciples learners (MAQHTHS/MANQANESQE)?

You offer questions instead of Godly edifying. I don’t forbid you to “grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” but to do so is not to come a mouthing but to listen, reflect, learn and grow.

Vladimir

“I was listening (online) to Matt Chandler preach about the challenges of evangelizing church members who think they are saved but aren’t. I was moved by the insight and courage of what he said. Matt is the Lead Pastor at The Village Church in Highland Village, Texas. He has agreed to come and help us think about that issue in our churches—saving those who think they are saved.”

There are some people who self-deceptively believe and profess themselves to be believers, but who aren’t actually believers.

And Piper and Chandler are saying that it behooves pastor-shepherds to evangelize church members who think they are saved but aren’t.

By necessity, that implies that the pastor-shepherd HAS TO make a discerning judgment about whether someone is “In” or “Out” and this discernment will then guide the pastoral approach.

If the pastor-shepherd doesn’t do this, then arguably the pastor-shepherd has shirked one of his most sacred responsibilities.

#1. Yes. I see this happening all the time.

#2. A key word in your question above is “believers”. Not everyone who professes to be a believer … is … actually … a believer.

#3. Paul rebuked Peter.

#4. Jesus rebuked Peter.

#5. Iron sharpens iron.

#6. Look at this post about whether President-elect Obama is even a Christian: Obama’s Heterodoxy.