Britphil,

Thank you. I have to say, really studying the creation account has been one of the most rewarding experiences I can recall in recent times. Knowing how the universe looked to an ancient Israelite goes a long way in properly understanding Genesis, and I’ve found that any interpretation that does not consider this has already failed. Unfortunately, it seems that most popular views fall into that category.

I’m pleased to see progress being made within the evangelical world though, even if it is slow, in moving away from six-day literal creationism to a more realistic and accurate understanding of the creation account and what it means for us today.

I think given enough time, six-day creationism, along with any other view of creation that forces God’s word to fit our modern expectations, will soon go the way of the flat earth and geocentric universe. The sooner, the better. Its never a good thing for the church to be needlessly foolish.

Greg

It’s not as easy as “The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it” as some would like it to be.

Please, proclaim it aloud from the rooftops my friend!

I was about to weep into my cornflakes when I read Jeff’s comments, but thankfully your brief and concise reply saved me the bother of posting too hasty a reply.

I also find myself being on the same side of the argument as Vladimir, which must be a first!

Vladimer, I agree.

It’s not as easy as “The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it” as some would like it to be.

Jeff,

Believe me it is involved. Consider Genesis 1:3.

Vladimir

Hi Jeff

You said that salvation can’t be complete unless Jesus has returned. I don’t have a problem with that, when you consider what salvation means in the New Testament. I found R.C. Sproul’s explanation very helpful. He says that the word “saved” (Greek: sozo) is used in every tense in the Greek language in the New Testament, whereas justification is the instantaneous action upon a person. So salvation will be completed at Christ’s second coming.

I am not sure how you all could argue that their could be a prophet come now. Daniel is clear that the sealing up of prophecy would happen by the end of the 70th week (Daniel 9:24).

“Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.”

So, within the 70 weeks, we are to see an end to transgression and sin (which would be accomplished at the Parousia), and end to prophecy and vision, bringing in of righteousness, the anointing of Messiah, and the end of the holy city. All of these events (including resurrection – Daniel 12:2), would be finished when the holy people were scattered (destruction of Jerusalem – 70 AD – per Daniel 12:7 and on).

So the fact that the 70th week is past, is evidence that vision and prophecy have been sealed, ceased, and the gifts of the spirit, which were a sign of judgment to the unfaithful (Joel 2) have ceased at the time of the scattering of the holy people.

With the coming again aspect, Preterism does believe in the second coming. It is simply a matter of timing, not happening. A couple things to consider, from a preterist position:

If he has not already fulfilled the “coming again” idea, then:

1. Salvation is incomplete (Heb 9:28), he has not appeared a second time to complete the salvation process. In the temple system, the priest went into the holy of holies to offer the sacrifice, but the sacrifice was not finished until it was deemed accepted, as evidenced by the priest appearing the second time to the people.

2. No one has yet to enter into heaven, first because of point one, second, Christ said he was going to prepare a place and would return to take us to where he was. If he hasn’t returned, then he hasn’t finished preparing, and hasn’t taken anyone to be with him.

3. If he has not come, then death has not been conquered, and therefore everyone still to this day has to suffer the pains of separation from God in the Hadean realm. Of course, this is consistent with the early church fathers, as they too believed that man was to stay in the hadean realm till a still future second coming, for instance Tertullian stated plainly “How indeed, will the soul mount up to heaven, where Christ is already sitting at the Father’s right hand? For the archangel’s trumpet has not yet been heard by the command of God…To no one is heaven opened…When the world indeed, will pass away, then the kingdom of heaven will be opened.”

Justin Martyr said those who believe men go to heaven upon death, fall in with Gnostics and are not to be considered Christian: “You may have fallen in with some [Gnostics] who are called Christians. However, they do not admit this [intermediate state], and they venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham…They say there is no resurrection of the dead. Rather, they say that when they die, their souls are taken to heaven. Do not imagine they are Christians.”

So, either men continue to go to the Hadean realm today to await the resurrection, or it is true that Christ has conquered the place of the dead, and that men have been raised, and we no longer experience death (the place/state of death) but go immediately to be with the father. No one can enter heaven until after the resurrection, so again, if it hasn’t happened, then why are we preaching heaven today?

Paul promised his hearers in 1 Cor 15:51 and following, that not all of them would sleep (experience this hadean “death”), but they would be changed at the trump, which he expected to be in the lifetime of his hearers. At that trump, those souls already in the place of death would be raised, and those living would be changed, putting on incorruption and immortality, so as never to experience the death.

4. And if the coming hasn’t happened, then Jesus, Peter, Paul and most of the other NT writers are liars in their promise that they were living in the last days, the very last hour, and the end was at the door, and these things were to happen soon, and within their generation.

Vladamir, you say:

“The age of the earth issue is complicated and involved, so I won’t enter into further discussion here except to say that the Hebrew word for day ‘yom’ does not in context necessarily have to be defined and limited to a 24 hour period.”

True, “yom” in and of itself does not necessarily mean a 24 hour period, but when you add to it the specific and clear qualifier “the morning and the evening” then you have directly identified what type of day is being spoken of.

There is also going to be the difference between philosophical monotheism (what we westerners usually think of) and doxalogical monotheism (what characterized many of those in biblical times.

Charles: Henotheism doesn’t require a pantheon of gods. Nelson’s Dictionary of Christianity (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 2005) defines the term saying:

“Form of faith midway between polytheism and monotheism. It recognizes the existence of many gods but regards only one god as the deity of the family or tribe. According to Max Muller and others, the Jewish worship of Yahweh fell into this category.” (p. 327)

Monolatry is defined as:

“Worship of one god without excluding the possibility of other gods. Distinguished from monotheism.” (p. 469)

They’re functionally equivalent, but even if we split hairs and press the difference in the definitions between “recognizing” and “not excluding” then we can still say that ancient Israel was henotheistic. Phrases in the Hebrew Bible such as “God of gods” (e.g., Deut. 10:17) attests to as much. It isn’t until Isaiah that we really begin to see monotheism as we recognize it today.

And as to your last comment, I’m in agreement. I think that our understanding of God is inseparable from our salvation.