In support of RB vs. Rob Baldwin:

1) “Jesus” is never mentioned by name in the Old Testament.

2) “The Word” can mean all kinds of things; it can be in part a reference to scripture.

3) The many references in the Old Testament to a saving person in the line of David, can refer to many people: David himself; Solomon; or many other subsequent persons.

4) Likewise, all other parts of the Old Testament taken to refer specifically to Jesus, are found to be far less certain than previously thought.

In other words, ALL of us are trying to explain the nature and existence of a non-linear God by our linear perspective. Therein lies the difficulty. He says He is, was, and is to come… for our benefit. The more accurate description is “I AM.”

I have not read each and every post here, as they are extensive. Let me just say that I was raised first Oneness, and then Trinitarian. In my mind, the two have blended together, if such a thing is possible. I have witnessed God’s blessing, hand, and fruit/evidence of the spirit on BOTH sides. I believe the wonderful people I’ve known on both sides will be reconciled when we no longer see through a glass darkly.

That being said — I am a fan of Jason Dulle, and his Oneness apologetics. http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/jesusprayers3.htm. I have not encountered anyone who can so clearly express the real Oneness doctrine in which I was raised. After experiencing Trinitarian churches, I have spent much time in prayer, examining both sides. I believe both sides have a missing piece. God exists outside of time, matter, and space — and this is critical to understanding His nature. In fact, these dimensions are part of creation. We are all attempting to define Him by our OWN paradigm — from within these dimensions.

The whole question of the pre-existance of Christ, is something of a mute point. Of course Christ was pre-existant. The flaw in the question is the “pre.” If He is post-existant (somewhat tongue-in-cheek there) in His eternal, glorified state, then He is also necessarily pre-existant, because His existance outside of the incarnation is also outside of time. He simply is. And if He exists outside of time, He “always” exists outside of time, even when He simultaneously exists or operates within time. Once outside of time IS ALWAYS outside of time. Because… it’s OUTSIDE of time. It’s a paradox — to us. So, are all things created by Him and for Him? Yes. Did Christ walk in the garden with Adam and Eve? Yes. Was Christ with God in the beginning? Yes. WAS He God in the beginning? Yes. Did Christ look out over the tents of Jacob and express His love for them? Yes. Did Christ visit Abraham? Yes. Is He unipersonal? Yes. He is the logos made flesh. The Son of God, God the Son. A three-in-one, one-in-three loop. And we are a monotheism.

Was God alone (oneness) before He created us, or was He in fellowship with Himself (trinity) before He created us? It’s actually a flawed question. “Before” is our perspective — not His. Think on that for a while. Could God be unipersonal, AND exist in three “persons” from our perspective? Absolutely — if He is by nature omnipotent, omnicient, omnipresent, and outside of the universe He created, the exception BEING the incarnation itself. That is true whether you believe in the Son of God, or God the Son. So Eternal God, or Eternal God the Son still died on the cross. The same paradox exists in both views. God made flesh IS a paradox. But we ALL recognize He was fully human yet fully divine. In that, I believe by grace we are saved. And you all probably think I’m nuts about now.

Cheryl #66:

But God had us all in mind, he “knew” us all, before we were born; therefore, Jesus existing before his birth is not unique, but is the common fate of all men; who are also by the way, all “sons of God.”

While then too, regarding other comments: where in the New Testament is Jesus referred to as the “Mighty God”? How do you know any such references in the OT refer thus, to Jesus?

I agree with Kara, in that anyone who preaches or teaches anything contrary to Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, is guilty of a greater condemnation.

Rob Bowman,
In answer to your blog title only.

No.

Like I said before I am Pentecostal and grew up with relatives on both sides of the argument. On each side there were those who loved the Lord, called on His name and repented and received Jesus in their hearts and was born again and filled with the Spirit. The only thing was their viewpoint on the nature of the Godhead. So no, it is not a requirement to being saved.

If you want to make it a requirement then no, you would be in error because Jesus said “Repent and believe the Gospel”. That was His teaching. John the Baptist said “Behold the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world”. How? Through the message of repentance which Jesus just taught.

In answer to your blog title only…no.

All,

Per my express warning to RB, I have deleted his recent comments.

John CT,

Which trinity thread are you referrng to? There seems to be several. And actually RB’s debate goes way beyond anything regarding belief in the trinity since he has repeatedly stated that he does not believe that Jesus is God or that he existed before his birth on this earth. I don’t even know what thread to take such a discussion too–but it certanly seems to be a very vital one!

RB,
I can…

David said “Adonai said unto my Adonai sit thou on my right hand until I make thy enemies thy footstool…

Isaiah said “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given and he shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace and the government shall be upon his shoulders and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”

And thou shalt call his name Emmanuel meaning God with us.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to glory of God the Father.

Can you say then Adonai will speak to an angel to invite him to sit on God’s right hand?

Then consider this verse…”to which of any of the angels did He say at any time, thou are my begotten son, this day have I begotten thee?”

There were no angels who fit this description or purpose. There were no other people who qualified. There was only one man who did, that was Yashua Ha Mashiach. Jesus the Anointed One. The man whose name is the Branch born out of the line and root of Jesse.

RB,

I find it interesting that the link you keep referring me to doesn’t even agree with some of what you are saying !