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	<title>Comments on: Heresy Hunting or Hunting for History?</title>
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	<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/heresy-hunting-or-hunting-for-history/</link>
	<description>Making Theology Accessible</description>
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		<title>By: Apocryphicity &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More Responses to &#8220;Heresy Hunting&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/heresy-hunting-or-hunting-for-history/comment-page-1/#comment-6457</link>
		<dc:creator>Apocryphicity &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More Responses to &#8220;Heresy Hunting&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1314#comment-6457</guid>
		<description>[...] I mention in the article), has also posted a response to the &#8220;Heresy Hunting&#8221; on the Parchment and Pen blog. His concern is, again, that I am just as biased in my defense of CA scholarship as the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I mention in the article), has also posted a response to the &ldquo;Heresy Hunting&rdquo; on the Parchment and Pen blog. His concern is, again, that I am just as biased in my defense of CA scholarship as the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Wallace</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/heresy-hunting-or-hunting-for-history/comment-page-1/#comment-6456</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1314#comment-6456</guid>
		<description>Sorry, folks, for not responding sooner. I&#039;m wrapping on a two-month expedition to the UK to photograph manuscripts. Leaving for the States tomorrow. I have my copies of P66 and P75 at home; P4, P64, and P67 do not have incipits, but both P66 and P75 do. I suspect that there may be some confusion about these incipits: most scholars would agree that they were added to early manuscripts but were not part of the original gospels. Once more than one gospel became known in a region, some way to distinguish the two needed to be devised. The word &#039;gospel&#039; was still developing in usage, from speaking not just of the content of the good news, but also of a written document that had such content. I&#039;m not sure exactly when that happened, but until it did, the best way for scribes to indicate whose gospel it was was simply to use &quot;according to X.&quot; This indeed is what we see in Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. Meanwhile, P66 and P75, one second-century and one-early third century MS, both have for John &quot;the gospel according to John.&quot; At first blush, I would say that the titles or incipits here were written by the scribes who wrote these manuscripts. There is no indication in the Nestle apparatus that it is otherwise, either. But since my copies are 5000 miles away and I&#039;m sitting in a hotel right now in London, I can&#039;t access the images. (I&#039;d love to be able to post images of both of these papyri soon! But permission are sometimes hard to come by...)

I suspect that the message was garbled somewhere along the way. Without pointing fingers, I think that when someone realized that the original MSS of the gospels lacked author&#039;s identification, noting that such were added later, another reader might assume that that meant that the titles were added to a later manuscript by a still later hand. I don&#039;t think that&#039;s the case, but rather simply that the scribe who wrote P66 put in the title, as did the scribe who wrote P75.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, folks, for not responding sooner. I&#8217;m wrapping on a two-month expedition to the UK to photograph manuscripts. Leaving for the States tomorrow. I have my copies of P66 and P75 at home; P4, P64, and P67 do not have incipits, but both P66 and P75 do. I suspect that there may be some confusion about these incipits: most scholars would agree that they were added to early manuscripts but were not part of the original gospels. Once more than one gospel became known in a region, some way to distinguish the two needed to be devised. The word &#8216;gospel&#8217; was still developing in usage, from speaking not just of the content of the good news, but also of a written document that had such content. I&#8217;m not sure exactly when that happened, but until it did, the best way for scribes to indicate whose gospel it was was simply to use &#8220;according to X.&#8221; This indeed is what we see in Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. Meanwhile, P66 and P75, one second-century and one-early third century MS, both have for John &#8220;the gospel according to John.&#8221; At first blush, I would say that the titles or incipits here were written by the scribes who wrote these manuscripts. There is no indication in the Nestle apparatus that it is otherwise, either. But since my copies are 5000 miles away and I&#8217;m sitting in a hotel right now in London, I can&#8217;t access the images. (I&#8217;d love to be able to post images of both of these papyri soon! But permission are sometimes hard to come by&#8230;)</p>
<p>I suspect that the message was garbled somewhere along the way. Without pointing fingers, I think that when someone realized that the original MSS of the gospels lacked author&#8217;s identification, noting that such were added later, another reader might assume that that meant that the titles were added to a later manuscript by a still later hand. I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s the case, but rather simply that the scribe who wrote P66 put in the title, as did the scribe who wrote P75.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dulle</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/heresy-hunting-or-hunting-for-history/comment-page-1/#comment-6455</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dulle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 23:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1314#comment-6455</guid>
		<description>Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Vladimir</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/heresy-hunting-or-hunting-for-history/comment-page-1/#comment-6454</link>
		<dc:creator>Vladimir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1314#comment-6454</guid>
		<description>Jason,

There are now many sites on the internet that have images of the NT papyri and codices.

Check these out for a first hand view:

http://www.biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.html

http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/bibel.html

http://www.csntm.org/

To answer your question (and as you will see) P1 has the Greek letter Alpha in the place were the superscrioption would normally be found.  Alpha equals the number one in the Greek language indicating, presumably, that it is the first page of a codex (book form).

Vladimir</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>There are now many sites on the internet that have images of the NT papyri and codices.</p>
<p>Check these out for a first hand view:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/bibel.html" rel="nofollow">http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/bibel.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.csntm.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.csntm.org/</a></p>
<p>To answer your question (and as you will see) P1 has the Greek letter Alpha in the place were the superscrioption would normally be found.  Alpha equals the number one in the Greek language indicating, presumably, that it is the first page of a codex (book form).</p>
<p>Vladimir</p>
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		<title>By: Vladimir</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/heresy-hunting-or-hunting-for-history/comment-page-1/#comment-6453</link>
		<dc:creator>Vladimir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1314#comment-6453</guid>
		<description>Jason,

See this link with images and see for yourself.

http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/bibel.html

P1 has the letter alpha in the usual place of a superscription.  The Greek letter Alpha represents the number one indicating the first page/leaf of this codex (book form).

**Ignore the comments of the Islamic-awareness cite.**

Let me know what you think.

Vladimir</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>See this link with images and see for yourself.</p>
<p><a href="http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/bibel.html" rel="nofollow">http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/bibel.html</a></p>
<p>P1 has the letter alpha in the usual place of a superscription.  The Greek letter Alpha represents the number one indicating the first page/leaf of this codex (book form).</p>
<p>**Ignore the comments of the Islamic-awareness cite.**</p>
<p>Let me know what you think.</p>
<p>Vladimir</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dulle</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/heresy-hunting-or-hunting-for-history/comment-page-1/#comment-6452</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dulle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1314#comment-6452</guid>
		<description>Vladamir,

Given that p64-67 does not contain the beginning of either Matthew or Luke, I wonder why Boyd would say it originally lacked superscriptions.  There would be no way to know.
I did not ask about p1, but since you brought it up, I have an additional question.  Are you saying p1 still lacks a title?  If so, is it because of the fragmentary nature of the manuscript, or is it because the original scribe clearly did not include one?

Jason</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vladamir,</p>
<p>Given that p64-67 does not contain the beginning of either Matthew or Luke, I wonder why Boyd would say it originally lacked superscriptions.  There would be no way to know.<br />
I did not ask about p1, but since you brought it up, I have an additional question.  Are you saying p1 still lacks a title?  If so, is it because of the fragmentary nature of the manuscript, or is it because the original scribe clearly did not include one?</p>
<p>Jason</p>
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		<title>By: Burke vs. Bowman: Christian Apocrypha &#38; Apologetics &#171; Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/heresy-hunting-or-hunting-for-history/comment-page-1/#comment-6451</link>
		<dc:creator>Burke vs. Bowman: Christian Apocrypha &#38; Apologetics &#171; Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1314#comment-6451</guid>
		<description>[...] Heresy Hunting or Hunting for History? (Wallace) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Heresy Hunting or Hunting for History? (Wallace) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Vladimir</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/heresy-hunting-or-hunting-for-history/comment-page-1/#comment-6450</link>
		<dc:creator>Vladimir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1314#comment-6450</guid>
		<description>Jason,

This is my third attempt to respond to your query.

All Greek biblical papyri manuscripts are fragmentary.  P1 (III cent) contains Mt 1:1-9,12,14-20.  There is no inscriptio.

P64 (ca.200) begins with 3:9,15, etc (no inscriptio)

P66 (ca.200) begins with Jn 1:1-6:11, etc (inscriptio/incipit reads EUAGGELION KATA IWANNHN) which is longer than the inscriptio/incipit of codicies Sinaiticus and Vaticanus which simply have KATA IWANNHN.

P75 (III cent) begins at 3:18-22, etc.  At John it begins at 1:1-11, 45, 48-57, etc.  The inscriptio/incipit reads just like P66.

Since B. Metzger&#039;s study on palaeography and NT manuscripts it is generally recognized that these incipits and excipits are later scribal additions.  Whether they entered with the Christian preference for the codex (last quarter of the first cent) instead of the scroll is still an open question.

Dionysius of Alexander was the individual I had in mind, but he questioned the authorship of Revelation (another John other than the apostle).  He did not dispute the authorship of the gospel or the epistles.

Vladimir</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>This is my third attempt to respond to your query.</p>
<p>All Greek biblical papyri manuscripts are fragmentary.  P1 (III cent) contains Mt 1:1-9,12,14-20.  There is no inscriptio.</p>
<p>P64 (ca.200) begins with 3:9,15, etc (no inscriptio)</p>
<p>P66 (ca.200) begins with Jn 1:1-6:11, etc (inscriptio/incipit reads EUAGGELION KATA IWANNHN) which is longer than the inscriptio/incipit of codicies Sinaiticus and Vaticanus which simply have KATA IWANNHN.</p>
<p>P75 (III cent) begins at 3:18-22, etc.  At John it begins at 1:1-11, 45, 48-57, etc.  The inscriptio/incipit reads just like P66.</p>
<p>Since B. Metzger&#8217;s study on palaeography and NT manuscripts it is generally recognized that these incipits and excipits are later scribal additions.  Whether they entered with the Christian preference for the codex (last quarter of the first cent) instead of the scroll is still an open question.</p>
<p>Dionysius of Alexander was the individual I had in mind, but he questioned the authorship of Revelation (another John other than the apostle).  He did not dispute the authorship of the gospel or the epistles.</p>
<p>Vladimir</p>
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		<title>By: Vladimir</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/heresy-hunting-or-hunting-for-history/comment-page-1/#comment-6449</link>
		<dc:creator>Vladimir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1314#comment-6449</guid>
		<description>Jason,

The author in was thinking of who questioned the johannine authorship - not of the Gospel, but of Revelation, was Dionysius of Alexandria.

**All biblical papyri manuscripts are fragmentary.**

P66 and P75 have the inscriptio EUAGGELION KATA IWANNHN, whereas the parchment codicies Sinaiticus and Vaticanus have the more simple KATA IWANNHN.

It is generally recognized among informed text critics (at least since Metzger) that the incipit as well as the excipit are later additional notes of the scribe copying the text.

It is likely, that the use of inscriptio/subscriptio began with the rise of the codex form of bookmaking in distinction with that of the scroll late in the 1st cent (but this is still an issue of some speculation and debate.

You might want to check out these two links:

http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/

http://www.uni-muenster.de/NTTextforschung/

Vladimir</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>The author in was thinking of who questioned the johannine authorship &#8211; not of the Gospel, but of Revelation, was Dionysius of Alexandria.</p>
<p>**All biblical papyri manuscripts are fragmentary.**</p>
<p>P66 and P75 have the inscriptio EUAGGELION KATA IWANNHN, whereas the parchment codicies Sinaiticus and Vaticanus have the more simple KATA IWANNHN.</p>
<p>It is generally recognized among informed text critics (at least since Metzger) that the incipit as well as the excipit are later additional notes of the scribe copying the text.</p>
<p>It is likely, that the use of inscriptio/subscriptio began with the rise of the codex form of bookmaking in distinction with that of the scroll late in the 1st cent (but this is still an issue of some speculation and debate.</p>
<p>You might want to check out these two links:</p>
<p><a href="http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.uni-muenster.de/NTTextforschung/" rel="nofollow">http://www.uni-muenster.de/NTTextforschung/</a></p>
<p>Vladimir</p>
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		<title>By: Vladimir</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/heresy-hunting-or-hunting-for-history/comment-page-1/#comment-6448</link>
		<dc:creator>Vladimir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1314#comment-6448</guid>
		<description>Jason,

It is important to always check your sources.  The biblical papyri are fragmentary in content - all of them.  The smallest and earliest is P52 (Jn 18:31-33, 37-38), but its importance lies in the palaeographical fact that it overthrew any and all second century dating of the composition of John&#039;s Gospel.

The largest extant biblical papyri that we at present have are P66 and P75 (Both have a **variant** inscriptio/superscription EUAGGELION KATA IWANNHN.

P66 begins with John 1:1 - 6:11.  The inscriptio of the larger, more complete parchment codices (Sinaiticus and Vaticanus) simply have KATA IWANNHN.

P75  has Luke beginning at 3:18-22, but John begins at 1:1-11:45.

For full, competent, academic information about the papyri aa well as the uncial and minuscule parment manuscripts see here:

http://www.uni-muenster.de/NTTextforschung/

And for text-critical discussions from an evangelical perspective see here:

http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html

BTW, Dionysius of Alexandria was the author that I was thinking of, but he questioned the identification of the authorship of St. John&#039;s Revelation - not his Gospel.

Valdimir</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>It is important to always check your sources.  The biblical papyri are fragmentary in content &#8211; all of them.  The smallest and earliest is P52 (Jn 18:31-33, 37-38), but its importance lies in the palaeographical fact that it overthrew any and all second century dating of the composition of John&#8217;s Gospel.</p>
<p>The largest extant biblical papyri that we at present have are P66 and P75 (Both have a **variant** inscriptio/superscription EUAGGELION KATA IWANNHN.</p>
<p>P66 begins with John 1:1 &#8211; 6:11.  The inscriptio of the larger, more complete parchment codices (Sinaiticus and Vaticanus) simply have KATA IWANNHN.</p>
<p>P75  has Luke beginning at 3:18-22, but John begins at 1:1-11:45.</p>
<p>For full, competent, academic information about the papyri aa well as the uncial and minuscule parment manuscripts see here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.uni-muenster.de/NTTextforschung/" rel="nofollow">http://www.uni-muenster.de/NTTextforschung/</a></p>
<p>And for text-critical discussions from an evangelical perspective see here:</p>
<p><a href="http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html" rel="nofollow">http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html</a></p>
<p>BTW, Dionysius of Alexandria was the author that I was thinking of, but he questioned the identification of the authorship of St. John&#8217;s Revelation &#8211; not his Gospel.</p>
<p>Valdimir</p>
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