A Test of Essentials and Non-Essentials
The previous post was accidentally re-posted in the wrong place. Here is the original post that was lost during the crash. Feel free to fill it out again.
I want to give you all a test. Let’s try to get as many people to take this as we can. It will be fun, challenging, and helpful—I promise.
We have quit a few readers to this blog and many of you are from different traditions. I want to test our audience’s unity and diversity. What are the essentials and non-essentials for Christianity in your opinion?
Here are the rules:
I am going to give a list of doctrinal and moral issues. I want you all to rank them 1-6. Think hard about them. In your answer, give your tradition to which you identify most (e.g. Evangelical, Baptist, Brethern, Catholic, Orthodox, etc.). This way we can test the unity and diversity of those who call themselves Christian.
Here is a list of the ranks:
Essential for Salvation (1): Those doctrinal issues which rank as a 1 will only be those that you believe are absolutely essential for the Christian to believe in order to be Christian. In other words, if one were to deny this doctrine or issue, they could not be saved.
Essential for Orthodoxy (2): Those doctrinal issues which you rank as 2 will consist of those that you believe are part of the historic Christian faith. Ranking them as a 2 means that you believe that a denial of this doctrine, while not disqualifying someone from salvation, does disqualify them from orthodoxy. Obviously, if you rank something an 1 it will also be a 2, so there is no need to rank it with both a 1 and 2.
Important, but not essential (3): These doctrinal issues are those which you believe are very important for the Christian faith, yet do not qualify as a 1 or 2.
Not important (4): These doctrinal issues are those about which you believe that a person may have a strong opinion but you do not believe have any bearing on a person’s salvation or orthodoxy and are not important in any way for the Christian faith.
Pure speculation (5): These doctrinal issues are those that you believe are pure speculation. In other words, not only do they not qualify for 1-4, but you do not believe that anyone can or should have any legitimate conviction at all.
Wrong (6): These are doctrinal issues that you don’t believe.
Here is a chart/graph to help visualize!
Here are the doctrinal issues:
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works)
3. Belief in the existence of God
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15)
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep)
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal)
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation)
17. Belief that Jesus will come again
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam)
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned)
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins)
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God)
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible)
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin
25. Belief that abortion is a sin
Join us in reclaiming the mind for Christ. Start The Theology Program in your church.
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- Where I stand on all things part 1
- Essentials and non-essentials: Observations
- Where I stand on all things 2
- An Emerging Understanding of “Orthodox” - Part 3: The Maturing of Orthodoxy
- Must One Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
PhilC on 09 Oct 2008 at 1:43 pm #
1. (1)
2. (2)
3. (1)
4. (4)
5. (4)
6. (2)
7. (3)
8. (1)
9. (3)
10. (2)
11. (3)
12. (1)
13. (2)
14. (4)
15. (4)
16. (2)
17. (1)
18. (1)
19. (2)
20. (1)
21. (2)
22. (1)
23. (2)
24. (2)
25. (2)
My tradition: conservative evangelical
Peter Eddy on 09 Oct 2008 at 1:50 pm #
01. 1; 02. 1; 03. 1;
04. 6 or 4, I don’t believe in a pretribulational rapture, but I don’t think that the Church should condemn it as wrong;
05. 4; 06. 2; 07. 3; 08. 1; 09. 2; 10. 2; 11. 1; 12. 1; 13. 2; 14. 3; 15. 2; 16. 3; 17. 2; 18. 1; 19. 2; 20. 1; 21. 1; 22. 1; 23. 2; 24. 2; 25. 2
Vladimir on 09 Oct 2008 at 1:58 pm #
Evangelical/Orthodox
1. 1
2. 1
3. 1
4. 3
5. 1
6. 1
7. 1
8. 1
9. 2
10. 1
11. 2
12. 1
13. 1
14. 3
15. 1
16. 1
17. 1
18. 1
19. 1
20. 1
21. 1
22. 1
23. 2
24. 1
25. 2
Ryan Phelps on 09 Oct 2008 at 2:24 pm #
1: 1
2: 1
3: 1
4: 4
5: 4
6: 2
7: 3
8: 1
9: 2
10: 2
11: 1
12: 1
13: 1
14: 6
15: 2
16: 3
17: 1
18: 1
19: 2
20: 1
21: 1
22: 1
23: 2
24: 2
25: 2
Participate in a test : The Daily Scroll on 09 Oct 2008 at 2:26 pm #
[...] of essentials and non-essentials at Parchment and Pen: “I am going to give a list of doctrinal and moral issues. I want you [...]
Puddleglum on 09 Oct 2008 at 2:38 pm #
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ - 2
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works) - 2
3. Belief in the existence of God - 1
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church - 5
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15 ) - 5
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science - 4
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep) - 4
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man - 2
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon - 2
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon - 2
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false - 6
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal) - 2
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture - 2
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth - 5
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind - 4
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation) - 4
17. Belief that Jesus will come again - 2
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave - 1
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam) -3
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned) - 1
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins) - 2
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God) - 2
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible) - 3
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin - 3
25. Belief that abortion is a sin - 3
Ryan Phelps on 09 Oct 2008 at 2:52 pm #
One question: When determining what is essential for salvation, is there not a difference between knowing a specific piece of doctrine and the denial of that known doctrine? That, is, are there doctrines that are not necessary for salvation but would become necessary if they were denied? The one that comes immediately to mind is the doctrine of the Trinity. The thief on the cross (Luke 23) seemed to understand that Christ was God. But did he know that there were three separate persons and one God? Doubtful. However, if he somehow got off that cross, learned about the Trinity, but then denied it, wouldn’t he then be denied salvation?
ttm on 09 Oct 2008 at 3:35 pm #
1. 2
2. 2
3. 1
4. 5
5. 5
6. 2
7. 4
8. 2
9. 3
10. 3
11. 5
12. 2
13. 2
14. 3
15. 3
16. 3
17. 2
18. 1
19. 2
20. 1
21. 1
22. 2
23. 3
24. 3
25. 3
Tradition/Religious affiliation: raised Pentecostal, attended “Baptist-ic” college, hopscotched between Assembly of God, Non-denominational, Methodist and Baptist churches, currently not a “card-carrying member” of any religious organization
Jugulum on 09 Oct 2008 at 4:13 pm #
Vladimir,
Out of curiosity, I want to confirm something from your answer to 16:
You believe that Arminians cannot be saved, as they deny Perseverance of the Saints?
JohnFOM on 09 Oct 2008 at 4:21 pm #
I’ve been silently reading the blog on and off for about a year now but I’ve only just gotten round to organising the reading of blogs. Consider this a sort of ‘out of hiding’ first post. Looking forward to hopefully trading my shouting at the screen (’right on’s as well as ‘you can’t be serious’) for actual contributions to the conversation.
Radical evangelical
1. 2
2. 2
3. 1
4. 4
5. 4
6. 6
7. 4
8. 3
9. 4
10. 4
11. 4
12. 2
13. 2
14. 4
15. 3
16. 4
17. 2
18. 2
19. 2
20. 3
21. 4
22. 3
23. 3
24. 4
25. 4
Vladimir on 09 Oct 2008 at 4:29 pm #
Arminians - if eternally select - will be saved in spite of themselves, yet through fire. Their wood, hay and stubble non sense will not abide (cf 1 Cor 3:11-13).
11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.
If you wish, Michael, you may change my answer to question sixteen into a 2.
Vladimir
Jonathan on 09 Oct 2008 at 4:34 pm #
Sorry, I don’t see how #6 (”Wrong: These are doctrinal issues that you don’t believe.”) fits in. It seems like this survey is asking about the importance/centrality of various beliefs, and “Wrong” doesn’t seem like it’s a statement about that. Some of the issues (e.g., 14) cannot be answered “Wrong” anyway.
ttm on 09 Oct 2008 at 4:41 pm #
Puddleglum, we seem to be kindred spirits…nice to “virtually” meet you.
Charles on 09 Oct 2008 at 4:46 pm #
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ - 1
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works) - 2
3. Belief in the existence of God - 1
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church - 3
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15) - 4
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science - 2
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep) - 3
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man - 1
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon - 2
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon - 2
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false - 6
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal) - 1
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture - 2
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth - 5
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind - 2
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation) - 3
17. Belief that Jesus will come again - 2
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave - 2
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam) - 3
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned) - 1
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins) - 1
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God)- 1
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible) - 2
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin - 4
25. Belief that abortion is a sin - 4
Conservative Evangelical
C Michael Patton on 09 Oct 2008 at 4:54 pm #
Vlad, you are the most interesting Orthodox person I have ever seen!
JohnFOM on 09 Oct 2008 at 6:01 pm #
After reading the post on observations of the replies to this, I may be in danger of hell so I feel have to qualify one of my ratings.
I put my hand up to being one of those who does not believe the doctrine of inerrancy. I rated it as a six (ie wrong) based on the all encompassing way it was proposed in the survey.
“6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science)”
Whilst I believe in the inerrancy of scripture in regards to doctrine (useful for teaching, etc), it is, to be fair, a particularly poor science text book, and it does on occasion get a bit muddled when talking about history.
In the context of science the Bible is possibly streaks ahead of contemporary writings of its day, (eg the idea of Pi equalling 3 is a pretty dang good approximation to 3.1416 - 1 Kings 7:23) but try telling that to you kid’s maths teacher when s/he fails the geometry test.
(Just as a ‘for instance’ for historical inconsistency, in close proximity to the science instance, 1 Kings 7:26 v 2 Chron 4:5 - was it 2000 or 3000 baths in volume?… not that I want to derail the thread with a discussion of apparent/seeming contradictions in scripture).
Surely those of you who put 1 for statement 6 wouldn’t condemn me to hell for that view, would you?
Pastor Wit on 09 Oct 2008 at 6:05 pm #
1. 1
2. 1
3. 1
4. 3
5. 4
6. 2
7. 3
8. 1
9. 2
10. 2
11. 2
12. 2
13. 2
14. 3
15. 2
16. 3
17. 1
18. 1
19. 3
20. 1
21. 1
22. 1
23. 2
24. 3
25. 3
fundamental baptist
Ranger on 09 Oct 2008 at 7:02 pm #
Evangelical Baptist
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ - Border of 1 and 2
2. Belief in sola fide - 3 - Nicene Creed is orthodox, and doesn’t include sola fide
3. Belief in the existence of God - 1
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church - 4 (but my opinion is 6) considering so few in the history of the church have held to it, and the scriptural support is so sparse.
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation - Also a 4
6. Belief in inerrancy - 4 - Since plenty of godly men and women, both scholarly and lay, hold to a limited ‘inerrancy’, infallibility, etc. I think we would be ignorant to make this an essential. So yes, I’m saying Ehrman was ignorant to make this an essential
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection - 4
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man - 2
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon - 2
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon - 2
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false - 3
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity - 1
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture - 2
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth - 4
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind - 4 - Conservative scholars agree that the Hebrew seems to say that it’s at least peripherally symbolic of mankind as a whole. They also seem to agree that symbolically the passage seems to be pointing to the Eden as the temple. The allusions to Eden in the rest of the OT are also symbolic. With just the OT, I would have no problem saying Gen. 2:3ff is purely symbolic as the text seems to imply. But Paul says, “through one man sin entered the world,” seeming to mean a literal Adam, so that brings it into question. As such, I’d say the OT seems to imply symbolic, but the NT literal…so it’s a 4.
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints - 3
17. Belief that Jesus will come again - 2
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave - 1
19. Belief in imputed sin - 3
20. Belief in personal sin - 1
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement - 3 - It’s my personal view, but I know the Scriptural basis is somewhat weak, and that I’m relying more on Reformational interpretation. The early church and others have argued for various interpretation (Ransom, Christus Victor, Kaleidescope), so I’ll have to say it’s not important for salvation, but good for discussion.
22. Belief in monotheism - 2
23. Belief in sola Scriptura - 4
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin - 3
25. Belief that abortion is a sin - 3
What’s essential? Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from dead.
What’s orthodox? Nicene Creed
What’s important (for optimal Christian living)? My Baptist and Reformational convictions
GoldCityDance on 09 Oct 2008 at 7:36 pm #
1. 1
2. 2
3. 1
4. 5
5. 4
6. 2
7. 5
8. 2
9. 2
10. 2
11. 2
12. 1
13. 2
14. 4
15. 3
16. 3
17. 2
18. 1
19. 2
20. 1
21. 1
22. 1
23. 2
24. 3
25. 3
Evangelical with some charismatic influences and mild liberal (theological) tendencies
Daniel Doleys on 09 Oct 2008 at 8:26 pm #
1. 2
2. 2
3. 1
4. 4
5. 5
6. 3
7. 4
8. 2
9. 2
10. 2
11. 3
12. 2
13. 2
14. 2
15. 4 (but I also agree with #16 JohnFOM)
16. 3
17. 2
18. 2
19. 3
20. 2
21. 2
22. 2
23. 3
24. 2
25. 2
Melissa on 09 Oct 2008 at 9:28 pm #
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ 1
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works) 1
3. Belief in the existence of God 1
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church 4
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15) 4
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science 4
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep) 4
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man 1
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon 3
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon 3
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false 3
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal) 1
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture 2
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth 5
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind 4
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation) 3
17. Belief that Jesus will come again 1
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave 1
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam) 3
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned) 1
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins) 2
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God) 1
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible) 3
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin 3
25. Belief that abortion is a sin 3
Evangelical Baptist
Wonders for Oyarsa on 09 Oct 2008 at 10:18 pm #
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ 2
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works) 3 So hard to know what this really means - if we’re talking pelagianism, then it’s 2, but if we’re talking James vs. Paul, it’s a 6.
3. Belief in the existence of God 2
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church 6
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15 [Open in Libronix (if available)] ) 5
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science 6 I assume this is 6-day creationism
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep) 5
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man 2
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon 2
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon 2
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false 4
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal) 2
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture 2
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth 5
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind 5
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation) 6
17. Belief that Jesus will come again 2
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave 2
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam) 3 (not clear on what is meant here - I believe in imputation in a sort of human solidarity way, but not in a legal fiction way, so if we mean legal fiction I’d be a 6)
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned) 2
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins) 6
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God) 2
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible) 3 I’m not sure if I’m ready to condemn someone as unorthodox for saying the apostle’s creed is infallible, for instance, but this is a very 2ish sort of 3.
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin 2
25. Belief that abortion is a sin 2
I sort of combine 1 & 2 - in that I see “Christian” and “Orthodoxy” as synonymous for all practical purposes, and am furthermore hesitant to say “unless one holds a given doctrine, one cannot be saved” about anything as a rule (for God’s salvation is more powerful than our intellectual capacity - take the salvation of infants as a case in point). The cry “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” seems sufficient in some situations for God to hear and save, without having any clear picture of any of the “2s” except that the man has a need which Jesus can fill.
Conservative Evangelical Anglican
Lisa R on 09 Oct 2008 at 11:25 pm #
1. 1
2. 1
3. 1
4. 3
5. 4
6. 2
7. 4
8. 1
9. 5
10. 3
11. 2
12. 1
13. 2
14. 5
15. 2
16. 2
17. 2
18. 1
19. 2
20. 1
21. 2 (really wanting to say 1 though)
22. 1
23. 3
24. 3
25. 3
Myron on 10 Oct 2008 at 1:48 am #
1. 1
2. 2
3. 1
4. 6
5. 5
6. 6
7. 4
8. 1
9. 2
10. 2
11. 3
12. 1
13. 2
14. 5
15. 4
16. 3
17. 2
18. 1
19. 2
20. 1
21. 2
22. 1
23. 2
24. 2
25. 2
Robbie on 10 Oct 2008 at 2:30 am #
1. 1
2. 2
3. 1
4.5
5. 5
6. 3
7. 3
8. 2
9. 3
10. 3
11. 2
12. 2
13. 3
14. 5
15. 4
16. 4
17. 2
18. 1
19. 3
20. 1
21. 3
22. 1
23. 4
24. 3
25. 3
I guess I could be considered pentecostal/charismatic evangelical with a lot of emerging tendencies.
ADawson on 10 Oct 2008 at 2:58 am #
1. 2
2. 2
3. 1
4. 4
5. 4
6. 2
7. 4
8. 2
9. 2
10. 2
11. 4
12. 2
13. 1
14. 4
15. 2
16. 2
17. 1
18. 1
19. 2
20. 1
21. 2
22. 1
23. 2
24. 2
25. 2
Tradition: Conservative Evangelical
minnowspeaks on 10 Oct 2008 at 3:41 am #
This is a difficult survey for me to take because I do not believe Orthodoxy (#2) is important so while I think some of these things must be believed in order to qualify as “orthodox” they are still unimportant to me, personally. Hope my numbers make sense. Also essential for salvation is a problem for me verse essential for the “Christian” label so I am answering acording to the label.
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ 1
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works) Exchange the word grace for faith and I say 1, otherwise I think you are talking works so 6 (2)
3. Belief in the existence of God 1
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church 5 (2)
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15 [Open in Libronix (if available)] ) 5
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science 5 (2)
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep) 5 (2)
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man 1
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon 3 (2)
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon 3 (2)
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false 5
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal) 3 (2)
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture 3 (2)
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth 4 (2)
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind 4 (2)
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation) 6 (2)
17. Belief that Jesus will come again 1
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave 1
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam) 6 (2)
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned) 1
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins) 6 (2)
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God) 1
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible) 4 (2)
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin If you say homosexual behavior 4 if the state of being a homosexual 6 (2)
25. Belief that abortion is a sin 4 (2)
You tell me what I am. I have attended these types of fellowships (Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Episcopal, Dutch Reformed, United Methodist, Free Methodist, Baptist, Non-denominational (”spirit-filled”), and a non-denominational associated with New Frontiers International) and see little to differenciate between them except for a few things you didn’t touch on in your survey (gifts of the spirit, women in leadership, treatment of the poor, traditional vs contemporary music, to name a few).
britphil on 10 Oct 2008 at 5:44 am #
1. 1
2. 2 - would veer to 3 even as I believe faith alone which is not accompanied by good works is dead and sterile
3. 1
4. 5
5. 5
6. 4 - rated so low down because I have problems on the various translations/interpretations of Scripture from the very beginning being inerrant, as they were tanslated by fallible human beings. Also there is a big difference between “biblical doctrine” and how various Christian groupings have interpreted such doctrine, which at times has been far from inerrant
7. 3
8. 1
9. 2 - why shouldn’t it be..this is anew one to me?
10. 2 - not so unfamiliar but again, why shouldn’t it be?
11. 3
12. 2
13. 2
14. 5
15. 2
16. 4
17. 2
18. 1
19. 4
20. 1
21. 4 - although very hesitantly - could be a 3 as I am not sure, given all the recent controversy, what the doctrine actually means in it’s entirety
22. 1
23. 5 - no problem with the “ultimate authority” bit, big problem with the “infallible bit..inspired definitely, but again I have to ask is every translation of the Bible that has been made via the instrument of fallible human beings infallible?
24. 3 - If related to homosexual practice, 6 if related to homosexual orientation
25. 3 - could be 2 if you were allowed certain exceptions - ie in cases of brutal rape etc which in my experience of anti-abortionists you are not - it’s either all or nothing which I can’t and won’t subscribe too.
I am a Christian who is from an evangelical (with a small e) mildly charismatic Anfglican background
Cadis on 10 Oct 2008 at 7:12 am #
1. 1
2. 1 (hesitant 1)
3. 1
4. 3
5. 4
6. 3
7. 3
8. 1
9. 2
10. 2
11. 5
12. 2
13. 1
14. 3
15. 2
16. 3
17. 2
18 1
19. 2
20. 1
21. 1
22. 1
23. 3
24. 2
25. 3
Baptist
Tiffany on 10 Oct 2008 at 9:50 am #
Essential for Salvation: 1;3;18;20;21;22;23
Essential for Orthodoxy: 2;6;7;8;9;10;11;12;13;15;16;17;24;25
Important, but Not Essential: 5;14
Not Important: 4
Pure Speculation:–
Wrong: 19 - I believe that Adam and Eve’s sin brought the Fall and therefore all the descendants (everyone) are fallen so we sin
Southern Baptist
stephen on 10 Oct 2008 at 10:03 am #
1) 1
1
2) 1
3) 1
4) 4 not sure don’t have enough info to give strong doctrine opi
5) 4 not important to me at this time
6) 1
7) 4 does not matter there is no time anymore when you die
the next person you see will be CHRIST hard to conceive
9) 1
10) 1
11) 1
12) 1
13) 1
14) 3 not sure, it is important
15) 1
16) 1
17) 1
18) 1
19) 1
20) 1
21) 1
22) 1
23) 1
24) 1
25) 1
It’s a beautiful morning, so right now I am a evangelical baptist brethern catholic. I have sympathetic feelings for the Roman Catholics, understanding more accurately how they have arrived at there absurd doctrines.
britphil on 10 Oct 2008 at 10:20 am #
Hi Stephen
You do realise Michael is going to have a duck-egg when he sees your 21 1s. He was only commenting a short while ago that he was pleased to see that we were not going down the top-heavy number 1 route.
I take it this is a slightly tongue-in-cheek response from your good self, because if not most of us should rushing to grab hold of the nearest fire extinguisher to help us fend off the encroaching flames of hell!
Vladimir on 10 Oct 2008 at 10:23 am #
JohnFOM wrote:
“In the context of science the Bible is possibly streaks ahead of contemporary writings of its day, (eg the idea of Pi equalling 3 is a pretty dang good approximation to 3.1416 - 1 Kings 7:23) but try telling that to you kid’s maths teacher when s/he fails the geometry test.
(Just as a ‘for instance’ for historical inconsistency, in close proximity to the science instance, 1 Kings 7:26 v 2 Chron 4:5 - was it 2000 or 3000 baths in volume?… not that I want to derail the thread with a discussion of apparent/seeming contradictions in scripture).”
This issue of harmonization finds it’s origin often in a comparision of the Hebrew and old Greek (LXX) translation.
It is still even today a stumbling block for many scholars.
Vladimir
Saint and Sinner on 10 Oct 2008 at 10:32 am #
Reformed Evangelical
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ: ***Essential to Salvation. “Unless you believe that I AM you will perish in your sins.”
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works): ***This is more complex. If the statement would say, “…justification by faith alone,” then I would have to put this right on the edge between (1) and (2). Beliefs flow from one’s nature. A regenerate man will be inclined to believe in that which God has revealed to him. Of course, if that (regenerate) man misinterprets that which is revealed, then he’s off the hook, but he’s still outside of orthodoxy and should be treated as an unbeliever. So, it all depends upon the heart which only God can know.
However, I have far less patience toward that certain segment of dispensational thought that rejects lordship salvation. On the other hand, I would treat them the same way as the above person (Roman Catholic, etc.).
3. Belief in the existence of God: ***Essential to Salvation
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church: ***Just plain wrong.
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15): ***Pure speculation
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science: ***Essential for orthodoxy
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep): ***Essential for orthodoxy
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man: ***He who doesn’t is an anti-Christ. Essential for salvation
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon: ***Essential for orthodoxy
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon: ***Essential for orthodoxy
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false: ***Borderline (1) and (2). See Justification above.
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal): ***Essential for salvation
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture: ***Essential for salvation. [I'm assuming that this is not the same as inerrancy.]
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth: ***Important but not essential. It’s important because many of those who exalt scientific realism tend to slide down a slippery slope eventually into Darwinism. Not all or even most but some.
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind: ***Essential for orthodoxy
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation): ***(2) if you’re in a confessionally Reformed church, but (3) if you’re not.
17. Belief that Jesus will come again: ***Essential for salvation
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave: ***Essential for salvation
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam): ***Essential for orthodoxy
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned): ***Essential for salvation. Otherwise, Christ died for nothing.
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins): ***Essential for orthodoxy. These people are usually highly emotive and very annoying but not necessarily all-out heretics.
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God): ***Essential for salvation. I am assuming that you are excluding angels from this category.
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible): ***Essential for orthodoxy
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin: ***Essential for salvation. Maybe borderline (1) and (2), but I’d seriously doubt that this person has a regenerate heart. As I said above, a regenerate heart leads to submission to God’s Word.
25. Belief that abortion is a sin: ***Essential for salvation. Same as 24.
ADawson on 10 Oct 2008 at 11:11 am #
After thinking about it on the drive to work - I’d like to revise 1 of my original answers (and probably more if I had more time!):
1. 1
I originally made it a ‘2′ because the idea is so counter-intuitive that I have a hard time seeing baby Christians affirming it with any conviction. But making it a ‘2′ (and just giving Christ a REALLY high status) seems to go against a prior essential in my book - monotheism. So I think affirming the full deity of Christ is essential at least “in practice” even if you (or the early Church!) can’t fully articulate a resolution with monotheism - you “know it” but have a hard time “saying it”.
You really start to appreciate orthodoxy when thinking about these things - these issues aren’t straightforward and are certainly not independent of each other. Thank God for mature Christians meditating on Scripture, thinking hard about these issues in community and over time, and ‘walking the walk’.
- Archie
britphil on 10 Oct 2008 at 11:17 am #
Archie
My word….Michael’s now got us thinking about these things while we are driving to work! Whatever next!?
Hope your Eureka moment when ‘2′ became ‘1′ did not result in you jumping the lights !
Rey on 10 Oct 2008 at 12:16 pm #
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ -1
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works) -3
3. Belief in the existence of God -1
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church -4
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15 [Open in Libronix (if available)] ) -5
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science -3 (did you have to throw in doctrine in there?!?)
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep) -5
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man -2
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon -3
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon -2
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false -5
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal) -2
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture -2
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth -5
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind -3
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation) -3
17. Belief that Jesus will come again -2
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave -1
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam) -4
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned) -1
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins) -4
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God) -1
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible) -3
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin -2
25. Belief that abortion is a sin -2
Rey on 10 Oct 2008 at 12:38 pm #
Michael, how did you embed that Libronix link in your post?
Jason on 10 Oct 2008 at 1:44 pm #
A little preface - if your a Calvinist it does not matter what you believe in order to gain salvation - your going to be regenerated (if chosen) which will necessarily lead to justification and glorification.
1. 1
2. 1
3. 1
4. 3
5. 5
6. 2
7. 2
8. 1
9. 2
10. 2
11. 1 - relates to question #2 in my mind.
12. 1
13. 2
14. 3
15. 2,3
16. 1
17. 2
18. 1
19. 2 - could be one depending on your take on Rom.5
20. 1
21. 1
22. 2 There were other beings in the O.T. called gods (elohoim) but they were Incomparable to YHWH.
23. 2
24. 2
25. 2
Jason on 10 Oct 2008 at 1:58 pm #
I want to change my #16 to 2. It is a complex issue that may not be understood by a Christian and it is not required for one to assent to in order be saved. Although it does relate to the quality and extent of Christs work on the cross. If one believes they can lose it what are they really trusting in - their works. Then again no wants to say you could just believe something and live like hell. But I think the Bible is clear - that if you are truly regenerate you will strive to stay away from sin and submit yourself to the Lord - you may fail many times but if onced saved always saved. So this is not a required understanding to be saved - so I give it a 2.
Kyodie on 10 Oct 2008 at 2:37 pm #
Here are the doctrinal issues:
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ - 2
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works) - 2
3. Belief in the existence of God -1
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church - 4
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15 ) -4
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science – 2
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep) -3
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man - 2
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon - 2
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon -2
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false - 4
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal) -2
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture - 2
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth - 4
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind - 3
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation) - 2
17. Belief that Jesus will come again
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave - 1
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam) - 2
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned) - 1
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins) - 1
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God) - 2
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible) - 2
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin - 2
25. Belief that abortion is a sin – 2
I spent most of my life in conservative evangelical churches, and have recently moved across country and am living on my own for the first time. In the process of trying to pick a church to attend I have started to wonder about a lot of these issues. The whole process has been very scary for me because I have decided that a lot of what I thought was essential for salvation probably isn’t and a lot of what I thought was essential for Christianity probably isn’t either. Now I think I am a bit more of an emerger than an evangelical, but still very close to evangelicalism.
Ian on 10 Oct 2008 at 2:43 pm #
1. (1) Belief in the full deity of Christ
2. (1) Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works)
3. (1) Belief in the existence of God
4. (3) Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church
5. (5) Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation
6. (1) Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science
7. (2) Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep)
8. (1) Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man
9. (2) Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon
10. (2) Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon
11. (2) Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false
12. (1) Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal)
13. (1) Belief in the inspiration of Scripture
14. (3) Beliefs about the age of the earth
15. (2) Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind
16. (2) Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation)
17. (2) Belief that Jesus will come again
18. (1) Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave
19. (2) Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam)
20. (1) Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned)
21. (1) Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins)
22. (2) Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God)
23. (2) Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible)
24. (2) Belief that homosexuality is a sin
25. (2) Belief that abortion is a sin
Jugulum on 10 Oct 2008 at 2:47 pm #
Others have noted an important distinction, for category #1. There are things that are essential not to deny, and there are things that are essential to know. In other words, it might be that you can be saved without being aware of some truths, even though they are “essential”.
For instance, if we preach the gospel to someone who has never heard of Jesus, and we simply refer to him as “the incarnate son of God”, then we haven’t taught them about the full deity of Christ. But I have a hard time believing that every gospel presentation must include a fully-developed Christology.
So, I’m going to mark some of my 1’s with an asterisk. The asterisks means that I want to say it’s necessary for salvation, but I’m not sure you have to be able to consciously articulate it correctly, even in your own mind.
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ. 1*
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works) 1* (however you articulate faith & works, you must not be mixing in your works as part of how you stand before God.)
3. Belief in the existence of God 1
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church 4
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15) 5
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science 2 (though I’m a bit flexible on how you articulate inerrancy)
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep) 4
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man 1*
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon 3
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon 2
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false 3
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal) 1*
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture 2
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth 4
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind 3
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation) 3
17. Belief that Jesus will come again 1*
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave 1
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam) 3
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned) 1 (about yourself), 2 (about “all people”)
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins) 2
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God) 1
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible) 3
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin 3
25. Belief that abortion is a sin 3
Baptistic evangelical, “open but cautious” continuationist on spiritual gifts.
Out of curiosity, I just went back to look at my answers for the original entry, back in Nov. 2007. There were only four changes. Inerrancy went up from 3 to a qualified 2. Purgatory went up from 4 to 3. Imputed sin went down from 2 to 3. Sola scriptura went down from 2 to 3.
So am I becoming more dogmatic, or more loose? Hard to say…
Rey on 10 Oct 2008 at 3:03 pm #
Woops, I never described my denomination. Here’s my post # and I’m Plymouth Brethren which some would describe as Bible Thumping Fundamentalists and I would describe as Conservative Evangelicals.
Jonathan Enns on 10 Oct 2008 at 6:44 pm #
Evangelical Baptist / Non-denominational Evangelical background
1. (1) Belief in the full deity of Christ
2. (1) Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works)
3. (1) Belief in the existence of God
4. (3) Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church
5. (1) Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15 [Open in Libronix (if available)] )
6. (2) Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science
7. (3) Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep)
8. (2) Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man
9. (2) Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon
10. (2) Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon
11. (2) Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false
12. (2) Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal)
13. (2) Belief in the inspiration of Scripture
14. (3) Beliefs about the age of the earth
15. (3) Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind
16. (3) Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation)
17. (2) Belief that Jesus will come again
18. (1) Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave
19. (4) Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam)
20. (1) Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned)
21. (1) Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins)
22. (1) Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God)
23. (2) Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible)
24. (3) Belief that homosexuality is a sin
25. (3) Belief that abortion is a sin
Lisa R on 10 Oct 2008 at 7:04 pm #
Jugulum,
You raise a good point and it had me thinking. When a person first puts their faith in Christ, they are generally responding (or should be responding) to the fact that they are sinners and separated from God, Jesus died for their sins, they need a savior. I’m generalizing but I don’t think there’s much development beyond that unless of course there is some type of intellectual debate and raises the distinctions as mentioned above.
My initial reaction to the acknowledgment of essentials was not so much of what a person understands initially, but an acceptance after receiving the facts. It’s one thing to not know but another thing to deny after knowing. So you’re right that a person probably will not have a fully developed Christology. But what do we say of the person that responds to the gospel message but then upon learning key components of the salvation process, later rejects some aspects of most would agree to be essentials, such as:
Deity of Christ
Christ incarnate
Existence of personal sins
A triune God
Vicarious substitutionary atonement
The bodily resurrection of Jesus
Do we say?
1) They were never saved to begin with because if these are essential for salvation, then Spirit of Christ (indwelling of Holy Spirit) would produce agreement about these facts once they are learned
OR
2) the essentials for salvation are more ecumenical than most would want to believe.
Don’t know.
Michaele on 11 Oct 2008 at 12:21 am #
I am evangelical.
1. 1
2. 2
3. 1
4. 4 (almost a 5, and also a 6)
5. 4 (but I admit it’s not something I’ve ever thought about)
6. 3
7. 3
8. 2
9. 2
10. 2
11. 3
12. 2
13. 2
14. 3
15. 2
16. 3
17. 2
18. 2
19. 2
20. 1
21. 1
22. 1
23. 3
24. 2
25. 2
These are my initial reactions, but I wonder if I spent a lot of time thinking them all through, whether I might have some logical contradictions in here.
Derek Thompson on 11 Oct 2008 at 12:57 am #
Pentecostal
The diagram presumes the “Transactional Gospel” whch allows us to contribute something to our salvation. In it, salvation is transacted by God contributing his Son, and in response, we contribute whatever we can, our good works, our sound doctrine, our commitment, etc. The diagram shows concentric circles of doctrinal importance emanating from a non-negotiable core, which are called ’essentials’ as far as salvation is concerned. So, it appears that the doctrinal basis of this survey is that in order for people to be saved, they need to hold to (contribute) “correct” doctrine, at least in the essentials. One would not expect anyone holding these views to fellowship publicly with Christians of different “core” views or participate in combined church activities with them.
My view on church unity is taken from Paul’s letter to the Galatians. Paul criticised Peter for withdrawing from fellowship with gentile Christians in deference to the Jewish Christians from the church in Jerusalem (Gal 2:11-14). This was a break in church unity that betrayed the freedom Christ has given us (Gal 5:1). When we make salvation contingent on our compliance with church authority, or the church’s doctrines, or our dedication to the Lord displayed by our good works, or anything at all about ourselves, we fall into legalism and proclaim “another gospel”. Paul takes over the pen at the end of the letter to emphasise that “a new creation is everything” (Gal 6:15). Just as we play no part in our creation, we do not contribute anything to our salvation.
The idea that the doctrines we ascribe to makes the crucial difference appeals to our intellectual pride, enabling us to contribute something. Whether we go to heaven or not, is not a matter of passing a theology test. When we are sick and go to a doctor, we follow the course of action recommended, but we do not take the credit for getting better, we just submitted to the prescribed treatment. When unbelievers attend Catholic and Protestant church services and hear the Gospel proclaimed, albeit in different terms, they are not saved by the eloquence of the speaker, nor the speaker’s theological background, nor any good works they may be encouraged to do, nor any actions they are exhorted to take (e.g. the sinner’s prayer, baptism). It is the Holy Spirit who creates in us a new heart. It is one of the blessings of Christian freedom that we can share fellowship with Christians from different churches on the basis of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Therefore, my attempt at the survey (assuming we exclude those who have never heard the gospel):-
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ (2)
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works) (2)
3. Belief in the existence of God (1)
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church (4)
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15) (4)
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science (2)
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep) (4)
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man (2)
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon (2)
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon (2)
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false (4)
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal) (2)
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture (2)
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth (4)
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind (4)
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation) (2)
17. Belief that Jesus will come again (2)
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave (2)
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam) (4)
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned) (2)
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins) (2)
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God) (1)
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible) (4)
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin (4)
25. Belief that abortion is a sin (4)
Benjamin McGarry on 11 Oct 2008 at 1:27 am #
1. 1
2. 2 (so much explanation required here)
3. 1
4. 4 (but pushing a 6…)
5. 4
6. 4
7. 2
8. 1
9. 2
10. 1 (i really hope i am being consistent here)
11. 3
12. 1
13. 2
14. 4
15. 2 (so many of these have to do one’s Bible view…)
16. 3
17. 1
18. 1
19. 2
20. 1
21. 2
22. 1
23. 2
24. 2
25. 2 (i really struggled with how to answer this one…)
My tradition: non-denominational. Thanks for the post on these things Michael. I will share them with my fellow pastoral staff for discussion; and I will keep thinking on my answers.
chels on 11 Oct 2008 at 2:03 am #
1. 1
2. 2
3. 1
4. 5
5. 4
6. 3
7. 3
8. 1
9. 4
10. 2
11. 3
12. 2
13. 1
14. 4
15. 3-4
16. 4
17. 1
18. 1
19. 3
20. 1
21. 3
22. 1
23. 3
24. 2
25. 1
Tradition = Raised Southern Baptist; currently non-denominational.
Reg on 11 Oct 2008 at 10:33 am #
I am an Evangelical with an Open Brethren Background
1-1
2-2
3-1
4-3
5-5
6-2
7-2
8-1
9-3
10-3
11-2
12-1
13-1
14-4
15-1
16-2
17-2
18-1
19-2
20-1
21-1
22-1
23-1
24-2
25-2
chris on 11 Oct 2008 at 11:40 am #
baptist
1-1
2-1
3-1
4-4
5-3
6-2
7-3
8-1
9-2
10-2
11-2
12-2
13-2
14-2
15-2
16-2
17-1
18-1
19-1
20-1
21-1
22-1
23-2
24-2
25-2
Michael Yates on 11 Oct 2008 at 5:57 pm #
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ- 1
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works)-2
3. Belief in the existence of God-1
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church-3
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15 [Open in Libronix (if available)] ) -6 ( I actually think she saw nothing at all and was deceiving Saul for her own benefit.)
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science-2
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep)-2
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man-1
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon-2
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon-2
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false-2
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal)-2
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture-2
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth-3
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind-2
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believer can never lose their salvation)-2
17. Belief that Jesus will come again-2
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave-1
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam)-1
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned)-1
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins)-2
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God)-1
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible)-2
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin-3
25. Belief that abortion is a sin-2
Pentecostal/Evangelical
Bob on 12 Oct 2008 at 3:57 pm #
Evangelical
1. (2)
2. (1)
3. (1)
4. (4)
5. (5)
6. (3)
7. (4)
8. (2)
9. (3)
10. (3)
11. (2)
12. (2)
13. (2)
14. (5)
15. (3)
16. (2)
17. (2)
18. (1)
19. (3)
20. (1)
21. (1)
22. (2)
23. (2)
24. (2)
25. (3)
Kenneth on 12 Oct 2008 at 10:20 pm #
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ-1
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works) -1
3. Belief in the existence of God -1
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church-3
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation 4
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science 2
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection 2
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man 2
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon 2
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon 2
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false 3
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal) 2
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture 1
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth 4
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind 2
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believe can never lose their salvation) 3
17. Belief that Jesus will come again 3
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave 1
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam) 1
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned) 1
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins) 1
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God) 1
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible) 2
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin 2
25. Belief that abortion is a sin 2
Jugulum on 13 Oct 2008 at 11:05 am #
Derek Thompson,
I sympathize with your concern about us “contributing” to our salvation by the rigorous correctness of our belief. I am also sympathetic to your concern about the centrality of the gospel. And this entire post is about exploring the question, “What is actually essential for salvation?” We can’t let ourselves define that more broadly than Scripture does–we can’t pretend to hold people’s salvation hostage to a standard of orthodoxy.
That can be resolved, if right belief is something that God brings us to, rather than it being an achievement of our own. (And we can ask, “Is that what the Bible teaches us about the working of the Holy Spirit?”)
Or it can be resolved by saying that no right belief is necessary for salvation. (And we can ask, “Is that what the Bible teaches us about the relationship between faith and salvation?”)
But… What’s up with the way you marked some items as “1″? Why did you mark theism and monotheism as requirements for salvation? Where’s the consistency?
It’s rather puzzling to read your introductory paragraphs, where you seem to say that a requirement of “right belief” amounts to “achieving” salvation–but you go on to say that “You must believe in God in order to be saved.” You also speak as though hearing the Gospel is necessary in order to be saved. And presumably, you think that the Gospel is something (though it can be expressed in more than one way without changing the content)–that it has some kind of definition. That it’s not infinitely malleable.
So, how do you distinguish? What lets you define “belief in God” as a necessary orthodoxy, while you decry all other definitions of necessary orthodoxy as “Transaction Gospel”?
(If you start defining your criteria for marking things as “1″, I might actually agree–but even if so, I won’t understand how you’re being consistent with your introductory comments.)
Jim on 13 Oct 2008 at 12:22 pm #
1 1
2 1
3 1
4 6
5 4
6 2*
7 3
8 1
9 3
10 3
11 3
12 1
13 2
14 4
15 3
16 2
17 2
18 1
19 2
20 1
21 2
22 1
23 3
24 2
25 2
Tradition: conservative, Baptist
*I have a more liberal view of inerrancy than most conservatives, and so I list it as a 2 (my more liberal version). The number goes up if one begins to speak of a grammatical and/or scientific textbook type of inerrancy.
Jugulum on 13 Oct 2008 at 2:01 pm #
Er… I want to clarify/correct one of my sentences.
“We can’t let ourselves define that more broadly than Scripture does–we can’t pretend to hold people’s salvation hostage to a standard of orthodoxy.”
I did not mean that orthodoxy has nothing to do with salvation. I meant that we must not restrict salvation in any way that Scripture doesn’t. I should have said something like, “hostage to a standard of orthodoxy which Scripture doesn’t hold people to.”
mitchellmckain on 14 Oct 2008 at 4:20 am #
1) 2
2
2) 2
3) 2
4) 4
5) 4
6) 6
7) 4
9) 2
10) 2
11) 4
12) 2
13) 2
14) 6
15) 4
16) 6
17) 2
18) 2
19) 6
20) 2
21) 6
22) 2
23) 3
24) 4
25) 4
None of these rate a 1 because salvation is a work of God and not a work of our belief and because I do not identify being Christian with being saved.
Brian Feaster on 14 Oct 2008 at 10:18 pm #
Here’s what I believe.
Parchment and Pen » Where I stand on all things part 1 on 16 Oct 2008 at 1:57 am #
[...] guess that I will take the test again. I thought that I took it before, but I guess it got lost in the crash. I will break it up [...]
David Di Giacomo on 17 Oct 2008 at 4:13 pm #
1. Belief in the full deity of Christ: 1
2. Belief in sola fide (belief that salvation is by faith alone, without the addition of any works): 6
3. Belief in the existence of God: 1
4. Belief in the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church: 5
5. Belief that the witch of Endor saw the Spirit of Samuel, not a demonic representation (1 Sam. 28:15 ): 4
6. Belief in inerrancy (that the Bible does not have any errors in doctrine, history, or science) : 4
7. Belief that believers, upon death, go to directly into the presence of Christ, not into a state of spiritual unconsciousness until the resurrection (i.e. you deny soul-sleep): 5
8. Belief that Christ is fully God and fully Man: 1
9. Belief that the book of 2 Peter should be part of the New Testament canon: 3
10. Belief that the Gospel of John should be part of the New Testament canon: 3
11. Belief that the doctrine of purgatory is false: 4
12. Belief in the doctrine of the Trinity (i.e. there is one God who eternally exist in three distinct persons, all of which are fully God, all of which are equal): 2
13. Belief in the inspiration of Scripture: 2
14. Beliefs about the age of the earth: 5
15. Belief that Adam and Eve were real people, not simply symbolic of mankind: 2
16. Belief in the eternal security of the believer/perseverance of the saints (i.e. that a true believer can never lose their salvation): 6
17. Belief that Jesus will come again: 1
18. Belief that Jesus rose bodily from the grave: 1
19. Belief in imputed sin (i.e. that we are held guilty by God for the sin of Adam): 6
20. Belief in personal sin (i.e. that all people have sinned): 1
21. Belief in the penal substitutionary view of the atonement (i.e. that Christ death on the cross was a substitute penalty required by God for payment for your sins): 6
22. Belief in monotheism (i.e. there is only one God): 1
23. Belief in sola Scriptura (i.e. that the Scripture is our ultimate and and only infallible authority and that no council or pope is infallible): 6
24. Belief that homosexuality is a sin: 2
25. Belief that abortion is a sin: 2
Random Thoughts - 10/17/2008 | Kubecki.com on 17 Oct 2008 at 4:36 pm #
[...] Patton posts an intriguing test on the theological importance of various doctrines… At some point I may blog further on [...]