Why George Left the Faith

# on 23 Sep 2008
Losing Faith

Comments (52)

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52 Responses to “Why George Left the Faith”

1. Steve in Toronto on 23 Sep 2008 at 2:52 pm #

   When I read an account like this I always say to my self “there but for the grace of God go I”. When I found my self in a similar situation almost twenty years ago I was introduced by a family friend (a missionary who was on furlough from a very evangelical mission in Africa) to a circle of Liberal/Moderate neo-Calvinist Christens that were centered on a local Christian Reformed graduate school (the Institute for Christian Studies in Toronto). It opens up a new world of Christian faith and experience to me that helped me move beyond the more conventional and some what naive evangelical religion of my youth to a more mature and nuance faith that has seen me through a decade of personal and spiritual trauma that my twenty year old self could not have imagined. I dearly wish that more orthodox christens would encourage young men like your friend George to explore more liberal denomination (I found my spiritual home in the Anglican Church) that will help them learn to love God and follow Christ in spite of some times overwhelming feelings of doubt.

   God Bless
   Steve in Toronto

2. Scott Ferguson on 23 Sep 2008 at 3:17 pm #

   They are praying for me, which is a huge condescending act, and showing that they don’t accept me as-is

   It is easy to imagine why non-believers find this condescending. It is the ultimate judgment – you are stupid/evil/broken!

   Let’s face it. No atheist or Christian I know would call George a Christian. He never had the rebirth experience must evangelicals expect. It sounds more like 25 years of denial.

   They simply can’t tolerate doctrinally having a close friend who isn’t a believer.
   Do Christians need to respect the decisions and doubts of the “fallen” in order to remain in contact with them and minister to them? Can they even do that without violating the Great Commission? When discussing the topic of “witnessing” at work or whatever, I am always put in mind of the hymn, “They will know we are Christians by our Love.” If Christians really have the power of the Holy Spirit working in their lives their joy, demeanor and, yes, Love would attract someone like George. This Love must be for the human being, not for their soul or as a notch on their crucifix. Unfortunately, George’s friends sound like they are reacting more out of fear than love.

   Gee, I wish my thoughts weren’t so muddled

3. Scott Ferguson on 23 Sep 2008 at 3:24 pm #

   Michael (Do you go by Michael?),

   Do you get these letters directly or from another source – blog, article, friend, …

   Just curious

4. Wonders for Oyarsa on 23 Sep 2008 at 3:26 pm #

   I’ll take a stab at this…

   Does this typlify anything that Christians are doing wrong?

   I think it does, Michael. The biggest problem I see is the ferocity to which many evangelicals hold to a fundamentalist approach to the Bible or key doctrines. What I mean is the idea that when you defend, say, young-earth Creationism, you are defending nothing less than the core of the Christian faith itself. Thus, when that falls, the whole edifice built upon it falls with it. There are few things indeed which I would defend with this kind of tenacity – the resurrection of Christ perhaps, but few doctrinal formulations really warrant the “if you don’t believe this, you might as well be an atheist” status.

   One of the most liberating and fruitful things I learned in college was a class on ancient literature, where we read the Bible alongside other ancient texts. While, say, the Genesis passages look a lot like the other mythology, there were some profound and striking (and deeply moving) differences. The class underscored for me (and to some non-believers present as well) what the Bible would have looked like to the ancients – here is a supreme god who surprisingly has this reckless head-over-heels love of humanity, and who also has a firm commitment to goodness and justice.

   So I gained two things in an appreciation for the world of antiquity and what things meant to them. First, I saw the futility of trying to cram the text of antiquity into modern categories, and defend myths as if they were modern journalism. Second, I was able to see a sublime beauty that has been hidden for me from over-familiarity.

   I grant that not every Christian will take such an approach. Not every Christian is going to read Gilgamesh, Homer, Plato, etc. For some Christians the more fundamentalist way of reading the Bible is sustaining to their faith. But do these Christians realize that for others, such readings do not satisfy, and are actually intellectual and morally unsustainable? Would these Christians really rather people lose their faith altogether than gain an understanding more like C. S. Lewis on issues like ancient language in Genesis and revelation, and the doctrine of Hell? Even granted that fundamentalism is right, would not the person be better off as a C. S. Lewis who believes he is saved by Christ’s death on the cross in Heaven, and who is then chastised for his errors, then a former fundamentalist in Hell?

   Yeah. We’re doing something wrong here. A lot wrong.

   Does his rejection of Christianity seem to be more emotional or intellectual?

   I would say 90% intellectual. This seems to be someone who wants to believe, but simply can’t. The formulation he has been raised with will not hold up morally or intellectually. He wants to believe in a good God, but is offered one who looks evil and absurd, and is invited to call him good anyway.

   Anyway, when I read this sort of thing, I do wish I could talk to George, and assure him that there are other options out there. I mean, if I hadn’t found writers like Lewis and Chesterton, I most certainly would have lost my faith for very similar reasons. My brother lost his faith for a while for the same reasons, and I was able to help him through it.

5. Ken on 23 Sep 2008 at 3:30 pm #

   Not to be flippant (I am being serious), but he did not leave the faith. If he actually walked away then he was never really in it to begin with – appearances and feelings notwithstanding. A tare among the wheat is still a tare.

6. C Michael Patton on 23 Sep 2008 at 3:35 pm #

   Scott, yes I go by Michael. I get them from all over the place, books, conversation, and, with this particular on, an email list I subscribe to. There is also a good place called Letters From Leavers (www.lettersfromleavers.com).

   Wonders, very interesting observation about the love of God vs. the Old Testament picture. I too agree that many of us live in such a doctrinally ridged Christianity that it, from a human perspective, can be seen as a major reason why these problems occur.

   Ken, I agree. This guy was never really converted (can I do otherwise, I am a Calvinist!). Yet, he does believe that he was a part of the Christian faith and he believes he left. It is interesting and important to hear his perspective…at least I believe it is.

7. Scott Ferguson on 23 Sep 2008 at 3:37 pm #

   In light of the responses from Steve and “Wonders” (Stevie Wonders?) I would be interested in whether the fall from fundamentalism makes a louder thump than that from a more liberal Christian position. It appears to me that the stricter interpretations would be harder to hold on to and its loss, perhaps, less forgiving among one’s former fellow travelers. On the other hand, I fell from the Episcopal Church and the thud of a twenty year old me rang my bell for some time.

8. Wonders for Oyarsa on 23 Sep 2008 at 3:42 pm #

   Hi Scott,

   I have no way of knowing. I certainly don’t have much more love for liberal Christianity than I do for fundamentalism – I see them as opposite sides of the same error. I guess I know what falling away from a fundamentalist faith looks like, and I’m not really familiar with that many former liberal Christians. My bigoted suspicion is that liberals like Spong are so close to being secular humanists that it is a slight step rather than much of a fall, but you may knock down my caricature with your actual experience if you like.

   As to whether George was one of the bonafide elect whom God predestined for glory before the foundation of the world, is that ours to judge even now? I’m not a Calvinist, but I’m just sayin’ is all…

9. Jason on 23 Sep 2008 at 4:11 pm #

   So lets see.

   He never believed in God. Check

   He did Christian things because he wanted to fit in. Check

   He did whatever he pleased without concern for others. Check

   He justified himself by critiquing Christian apologists who I have no doubt are infinitely intellectually superior to him. Check

   He became an atheist. Oh wait he always was one. Check

   Sorry Michael, this guy is just a joke.

   Oh and Wonders, even atheists have figured out that without a literal Adam and Eve and a literal fall there is really no point in a literal Jesus and a literal crucifixion for the sins of the world. By one man all men died, by one man all men live.

10. Jason on 23 Sep 2008 at 4:15 pm #

    Scott, you can’t fall from the Episcopalians, they’ll accept anyone. Muslim, Hindu, atheist, they’re all part of the happy Episcopalian family.

11. Wonders for Oyarsa on 23 Sep 2008 at 4:19 pm #

    So Jason, you’d rather me be an atheist?

12. Cadis on 23 Sep 2008 at 4:28 pm #

    Does this typlify anything that Christians are doing wrong?

    Which Christian in this account do you mean?
    The wife (“any would do”)whom he decieved and married for selfish reasons. The wife who forgave him(obviously) of adultery. The freinds of 25 yrs who supposedly cannot tolerate doctrinal difference from a man who can’t understand the tower of Babel(do you think his friends didn’t notice)They tolerated his ‘crisis of faith’

    Does his rejection of Christianity seem to be more emotional or intellectual?
    He threw himself into Christian apologetics, did all kinds of reading and then went out for a drink and probably bumped into his old honey.

    What are your thoughts on George’s attempts to force himself to believe?
    I believe he wanted to be good.

    Why does George think his friends “praying for him” is condescending?
    He doesn’t. He’s frustrated that they still believe and he thinks they’re wrong

    I think Jason and I saw the same things.
    This man was living a lie because he is a liar.

    I’m sorry I still don’t get these letters
    or what they are supposed to accomplish

13. Jason on 23 Sep 2008 at 4:32 pm #

    No Wonders! God forbid! All I’ve pointed out is that your position is cognitively dissonant. You hold to one position (the correct one) that Jesus is Saviour and Lord, but have difficulties with the other (creation and the fall) that provides the foundation for the former.

    Atheists target the latter in order to discredit the former.

14. Steve on 23 Sep 2008 at 4:40 pm #

    I’m with Scott – the fall from fundamentalism is from a lofty height and when people fall, it’s going to be painful. Not to bash unnecessarily, but young-earth creationism is a great example of a pseudo-doctrine that takes on the trappings of The Truth of Scripture. Once that is undermined by solid scriptural exegesis and scientific observation, the YEC/believer might easily question all they’ve been taught. I’m generalizing, of course, but I think the principle is valid – fundamentalists fall farther and harder. Can we rig up a scientific test to measure it?

15. Wonders for Oyarsa on 23 Sep 2008 at 4:46 pm #

    But the thing is Jason, in Christian theology there is great diversity in understanding surrounding the interpretation of Genesis. The Church fathers themselves – particularly those of the Alexandrian school of interpretation – cared very little about the “literal” meaning of the stories in Genesis. You think my position (and that of Lewis, Tolkien, Chesterton, etc.) isn’t coherent, and that is your privilege. I think yours isn’t particularly capable of sustaining a fruitful relationship with modern science and biblical/historical scholarship. Fine. We can have that discussion.

    What I wish is that folks on your side would be willing to guide people like George toward mine, if it meant either that or apostasy. But instead folks like George are told that these non-essentials are the things upon which the faith lives or dies, and so they, with sorrow, pay their respects and leave the graveyard. And then when they leave, they are maligned and mocked, when their issues were very very real.

16. Jason on 23 Sep 2008 at 4:54 pm #

    Sorry Steve, solid biblical exegesis, that which correctly allows scripture to speak for itself rather than forcing it to say what you want, is on the side of young earth creationists.

    Scientific observation is often driven by the assumption of “deep time” which results in incongruities such as the discovery of soft tissues in dinosaur bones leading to the researcher’s comment that they can’t be blood cells because they wouldn’t last 65 million years. When after study they appear to be blood cells, they reach the conclusion that blood cells can survive 65 million years. They never question the 65 million years part.

17. Jason on 23 Sep 2008 at 5:10 pm #

    Wonders, George never left the faith because he wasn’t a Christian to begin with.

    Fathers like Augustine may have wondered why God took as long as six days to create, but he was equally willing to mock pagans who believed in an endlessly old universe when the Earth is less than six thousand years old (book 12 chapter 10) and he also believed that death was the penal punishment for the sin of Adam (book 13). (City of God)

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1201.htm

    If by fruitful you mean “Christians fall at the feet of the noble scientists who declare to us such profundities as ‘dead men don’t rise’” then no, there isn’t much room for a fruitful relationship. If you mean that scientists engage in study of the world that is and how it works (which is really the only fruitful part of science) and refrain from presenting untestable speculations about the ultimate origins of the world as though they were facts then I have no argument with them.

18. Joshua on 23 Sep 2008 at 5:10 pm #

    At the risk of high jacking this thread (sorry Michael), Jason, if modern science is totally wrong about the age of the earth and the universe (i.e. the starlight problem) why insert any system of inquiry into the Bible?

    Isn’t it better just to leave everything to a “mystery of God”?

19. Wonders for Oyarsa on 23 Sep 2008 at 5:27 pm #

    Jason, George may have never left the faith. I almost did and my brother did for a time. And the issues sound quite similar. I’m saying this is a problem, and brushing these folks off as bad when their questions are serious moral and intellectual ones is not productive.

    On science, the issues are much more complex then you make out. What I’m really talking about is what about Christians IN the scientific disciplines? Must Christian astrophysicists deny the theories surrounding the speed of light to accommodate six day creation? Must Christian biologists presume that someone intentionally put false evidence for common descent in the genomes of living organisms? On the historical level, must Christians deny any evidence of influence (even if it be polemic against) of texts like Gilgamesh in Genesis? When it gets to that point, you really are saying that Christians cannot do the work of these disciplines.

    Anyway, you are not convinced here. But the vast majority of Christians in these fields think the evidence is convincing, and understand their faith from a non-fundamentalist framework. Like it or not, young Christians going to college are losing their faith by the tens of thousands as they are exposed to such things, and I don’t think the bunker response is cutting it for them.

20. Steve on 23 Sep 2008 at 5:37 pm #

    brushing these folks off as bad when their questions are serious moral and intellectual ones is not productive.

    Wonders,
    At the risk of overgeneralizing, it seems that is exactly what we do. With the exception of the theologs, it seems that conservative Christianity is almost by definition anti-intellectual. “You have faith, by gum, so why think?”

    We are given an intellect, but we subvert it in the name of faith.

21. Truth Unites... and Divides on 23 Sep 2008 at 5:56 pm #

    Contrarian here:

    We are given saving faith, and we do glorify and love God with the intellect of the minds He has given us.

22. Wonders for Oyarsa on 23 Sep 2008 at 6:02 pm #

    Steve, fundamentalism does have an anti-intellectual tinge to it – as it was founded in reaction to what the liberal academy was doing in the mainline denominations. But conservative Christianity is anything but anti-intellectual, as it was in Europe the foundation for the worldview that made science possible. The giants of the faith – Augustine, Aquinas, Chrysostom and the newer Christian academics like Pascal, Lewis, and the current Pope are anything but anti-intellectual.

23. Steve on 23 Sep 2008 at 6:08 pm #

    Oyarsa,
    I don’t disagree at all, but where is that “conservative intellectualism” today? Where is it in those areas where faith and science intersect? I would contend that fundamentalism and to a lesser degree evangelicalism have abandoned it.

24. Wonders for Oyarsa on 23 Sep 2008 at 6:50 pm #

    The Catholic Church does a pretty darn good job of it, Steve. Have you ever read Humanae Vitae and Fdes et Ratio by Pope John Paul II? They paint a rich picture of the way forward for humanity in the modern world. In this area, I think the Catholics can be a good model for us evangelicals, even if we might take exception in some of our historic theological differences.

    In my own experience in graduate school, I have a good many conservative Christian friends in the physical sciences. They are a delight to be around, and their clarity of vision and their courage to wrestle with some of the toughest ethical questions of our day is downright inspiring – much more so than the short sightedness and moral confusion of their secular colleagues.

25. Jonathan Bartlett on 23 Sep 2008 at 9:28 pm #

    I think the problem that fundamentalism has had is a difficulty of fessing up to real problems. As a self-declared fundamentalist, I see that one of our big problems is to assume that we’ve got everything worked out. It is that self-deception which really causes us difficulties. I believe that _God_ has it all worked out, and that He has provided what is necessary in scripture, but it does not necessarily follow that _I_ have everything worked out just because I believe them. I trust that God knows, and by studying God’s word I can get closer to it.

    What’s exciting about Creationism (for example) this century is that (a) it is becoming much more rigorous, and (b) in doing so, it is becoming a lot more open about it’s own shortcomings and issues, and (c) is actually much more in conversation with the secular world than in the early-to-mid 1900s.

    Of course, this is just one part of Conservative/fundamentalism, but I see the same thing happening in the arts and other areas of culture. In the 1920’s the conservative Church turned inward, and really harmed itself. It wasn’t until the 90’s that it started opening itself back up and re-engaging the world.

    It is an exciting time.

26. curt on 23 Sep 2008 at 9:46 pm #

    Response to #3 above…

    I think many of these stories come from http://exchristian.net/
    There is a wide variety of experiences shared in the archive of testimonials – both the form of Christianity that is being left and the route taken out differ greatly.

    Another site with occasional de-con stories is:
    http://de-conversion.com/index/

27. Steve on 23 Sep 2008 at 10:07 pm #

    Jonathan,
    Well said. It will be interesting to see if fundamentalism can meet that challenge.

28. Steve Myers on 23 Sep 2008 at 10:13 pm #

    I agree that a true conversion never took place. What is disturbing is the lack of discernment on the part of his Christian friends. Does not God give us wisdom and discernment? There seems to be a terrible disconnection on their part and lack of true relationship. Where is the passion to love each other, carry each other’s burdens and strengthen the weak? The real question is where were they throughout all these years? The story seems to reveal more about those who were around George.

29. Oz on 23 Sep 2008 at 10:16 pm #

    In reading George’s account, the main thing that struck me was the three “things that disturb me”, which showed a very human-centric approach to faith, i.e. “I won’t believe it unless it makes absolute sense to me.” A God-centred approach might say “I can’t understand this completely due to cultural & historical distance, but God has said it and I need to grapple with what he is saying to me, and then change.”
    Humans have to adapt to realities that they can’t control all the time (e.g. laws of nature like gravity) but fight against spiritual realities as if they should be in control. More and more, we need to DEPEND on God, accept him and his sovereignty for what he says he is, not rebel against him as if our puny intellects will prevail.

30. Steve on 23 Sep 2008 at 10:16 pm #

    Steve,
    Maybe true, but we’re also just getting his version of the events.

31. Truth Unites... and Divides on 23 Sep 2008 at 10:18 pm #

    CMP: “Ken, I agree. This guy was never really converted (can I do otherwise, I am a Calvinist!). ”

    Me three. I agree with both Ken and CMP.

    From another perspective, this is actually a double blessing when George and other “de-converters” like him leave the Church. It’s a blessing to the Church. And it’s a blessing to George! No more pretense!

    Whether he’s an ex-Christian or a never-was-Christian, it doesn’t matter, because the bottom line is that George can state that he’s NOT a Christian.

    This refreshing honesty removes self-deception from where he stands in relationship to God and to himself. And if his heart hasn’t already been too hardened, then perhaps one day the True Gospel will penetrate George’s soul and he will be genuinely regenerated.

    Therefore, no need for excessive handwringing by Christians when never-was-Christians announce they are not Christians. It is a blessing in disguise, or arguably, an overt blessing for all concerned.

32. Steve on 23 Sep 2008 at 10:46 pm #

    TU…AD,
    So to paraphrase the Calvinist perspective, “Screw him. He wasn’t really saved anyway and was just taking up valuable pew space that realChristians could be using.”

    Did I miss it?

33. bethyada on 24 Sep 2008 at 5:17 am #

    I am not certain whether the issue is intellectual or emotional. We are taking what he says at face value but the is much that can be left out in these stories. I think real intellectual difficulties should be dealt with but if the real issue is underlying sin that the person does not wish to deal with, resolving the intellectual difficulties may not resolve anything. They will reject the solution or come up with another problem, then another.

    His approach to the 3 examples he gave was not very rigorous. His doctrine of hell is messed up. He fails to see punishment is for wickedness, not struggling to love enough, and he misses the point of man’s intentions at Babel (as well as not understanding that there is no other viable explanation for the origin of various languages).

    I think if people are going to be intellectually rigorous they should be so as a Christian, not just when they question the faith. It seems they will read good arguments against Christianity (though many of them are very poor, eg. God Delusion) but they don’t read the best Christian defences. This may not be the situation here given his comments.

    While some people who label themselves fundamentalists may not be intellectual, fundamentalism is. Some here claim that the fall from fundamentalism is large. That may be true, but what is more important is truth. If liberalism is at a distance from the truth there is less intrinsic distance to fall.

    I am not certain how this derailed to YEC, this was not mentioned by George. I won’t make much of a response, my ideas are similar to Jason’s. I will say that your comments about astrophysics and biology Wonders for Oyrasa suggest you are not aware of the thinking in YEC in respect to these areas, nor aware of the problems that are as big for the secularist scientists.

34. Chuck F on 24 Sep 2008 at 5:47 am #

    I am getting started to work and haven’t taken time to read other responses, so forgive if redundant.

    It is hard for me to say George “left the faith” or was “deconverted.” There doesn’t sound like there is much like conversion that happened in someone that pretty much doubted God’s existence from the start and just wanted to “fit in” with “cool” friends and then tried a little harder to believe when he needed to “fix his life.”

    What are Christians doing wrong? Young Life emotionalism (revivalism) might play a part (though challenging someone to take seriously the claims of the Gospel – a holy God, our depravity and a Christ who died on the cross to save us – is not something that is necessary a calm, cerebral proposition!). The most troubling comment is that George’s Christian friends cannot stand a close relationship with someone who disagrees with them.

    It is a bit appalling that someone can spend his whole adult life trying to make real something he never believed in – even marrying a Christian woman – “Any would do.” I applaud George’s honesty and self-awareness, but he sounds to me like someone who decided to “get rid of” something he never has really had: genuine faith in Christ.

35. Truth Unites... and Divides on 24 Sep 2008 at 7:14 am #

    Steve: “Did I miss it?”

    Yes. It’s a blessing to leave behind self-deception, wouldn’t you agree?

36. stephen on 24 Sep 2008 at 7:42 am #

    Hey Michael, hope you are feeling better!!

    Christians are not doing anything wrong. We need to be more thorough in our understanding of theology regarding the doctrines. Because, understanding the doctrines bring internal knowledge making us able to be more compassionate to a poor soul such as Greg. (I know! that sounds condescending)
    Greg has never gotten past the emotional and superficial and it’s still not to late, even now! That George has attempted to make himself believe is proof that what I have just said is true.
    One other point about this, I have had great difficulty my whole
    life in regards the faith in every aspect in similiarity with Greg.
    However, I always was the sinner realizing that it is I, and the problem lies with me the sinner and not, GOD MY SAVIOR.
    God can save Greg, and his faithful friends hopefully will keep praying for him.

37. Cadis on 24 Sep 2008 at 9:34 am #

    Michael is sick? that explains where came the idea for “Evangelicals “going green” ”

    Sorry Michael , hope you feel better soon!

38. C. Barton on 24 Sep 2008 at 2:31 pm #

    Oh boy! What do we as Christians do wrong? Waht can you say absolutely that we do right?
    Do we need a perfect scorecard to be effective ministers – no! Can we do somethings that would seem to disqualify us from being effective ministers – absolutely!
    But God adds new members to His body daily in spite of our worst screw-ups. I believe that if we realize that it is not us but is God’s miraculous power and Spirit within us that makes effective ministry, we might relax from all of our agenda building and flopping around in the funk of guilt and compulsion which Jesus removed on the cross!
    My question is, if George had met Jesus and heard Him say, “Follw Me”, would George be in the same place today?
    It seems that George (Michael’s first question) didn’t have the full conversion experience, with full knowledge of the HS working in him to transform him into a new person. Hopefully, he will.

39. Vladimir on 24 Sep 2008 at 6:45 pm #

    The funny thing about George is that what he allows for himself he denies to God.

    O sure, George may watch porno films or sci-fi thrillers, but for God to inspire such a symbolic book as Revelation, well it is forbidden.

    Its ok for George to judge God and condemn other people and perhaps even punch them in the face or whatever, but for God to condemn and judge is unspeakable.

    In George’s appraisal of things, God can’t be Himself and rule His creation, but in George’s world without God, suicide bombers slapp-down the twin towers in their fideistic distemper of having 70 virgins in the future life on the pain and pleasure of inflicting pain upon others.

    Vladimir

40. Kara P. on 24 Sep 2008 at 9:41 pm #

    …….Awe, he’ll be back! I think his letter was 90% emotional. He wants attention and answers. We all have to put up a good fight at one time or another. I think he is a believer but struggling. Sorry…….I know I am going against the status quo. I am sure his friends aren’t pushing him away. He feels like they are rubbing their beliefs in his face, so he is backing away. I hope he continues on his search to disprove Christianity! Isn’t that how so many great Christians came to faith? And hating Hell isn’t a bad thing. I have many questions myself that I know God can only answer. Won’t it be great when George shares his story about how he came back to the Church?

41. C. Barton on 25 Sep 2008 at 10:51 am #

    That’s why I love the story of Paul of Tarsus: he was like the Terminator, “I’ll be back to kill the Christians!” He was the Nazi Gestapo of his time.
    But look what happened: Jesus spoke directly from Heaven to Paul: “Hey, Paul, what do you think you’re doing? Don’t you know who I Am???”
    The transformation in Paul’s life is the most dramatic in the New Testament, I think, and he referred to himself as the chief of sinners. Paul’s story, if nothing else, confirms the miraculous power of Christ to change a life forever.

42. Scott Ferguson on 25 Sep 2008 at 3:02 pm #

    Kara,

    You may be right. It’s like seeing a couple holding hands right after our own bad break up. We want to yell, “Get a room!”

43. David Null on 25 Sep 2008 at 5:41 pm #

    Sounds like a real cry baby! I have close friends who have gone through terrible tragedy and their faith is even stronger.
    I don’t have much compassion for this story. Most of the
    ex-christian stories I’ve read over at ex-christian.net read the
    same way or worse. They all seem to have a chip on their shoulder about something God hasn’t done for them.

    Believers in other countries have awful things happen to them
    and their faith only grows much stronger. I don’t have
    any desire to “evangelize” the apostate nor do I think we
    should give them any room to vent about how terrible their
    “Christian” experience has been.

    Let them go on a missions trip with my friend to India and see
    little Christian girls who were burned up by Buddhist monks or
    Muslims and yet these families always seem to hold on to
    a very vibrant and growing faith.

    I don’t have time for their moaning and groaning and I don’t
    think God does either.

    This mentality happens because the church teaches people that God owes them a living and has a wonderful plan for
    our life.

44. Scott Ferguson on 26 Sep 2008 at 9:41 am #

    David,

    At first I was going to lament the lack of compassion among some Christians in cases like this but your wrap up struck me.

    This mentality happens because the church teaches people that God owes them a living and has a wonderful plan for
    our life.

    The church I attend is screening “Fire Proof” next month so I checked it out. The jubilation among most churchgoers that a “Christian Movie” is coming out has been perplexing. Even the positive reviews I read point out that the theology in this flick is simplistic. Fire Proof’s predecessor “Facing the Giants” was similarly infested with a God-will-get-you-a-raise-cure-your-infertility-and-win-the-State-Championship-for-you theology. At first I thought that it was a real shame that this pablum is all that the Christian-in-the-pew seems to want or get instead of the meat of a mature faith. But now I think that it crosses over into the dangerous delusion that, as you said, once you accept Jesus your life will be honky-dorey. The real irony is that, no one gets that when they are saved but they insist that portrayals of it promote the Gospel.

45. David Null on 26 Sep 2008 at 10:25 am #

    Scott,

    Thanks for understanding my point and not bashing me for
    being without compassion. I like what Dr. James White said
    once in a video blog. He said, “what you win them with is what
    you win them to..”

    I’m just tired of the ex-Christians getting the spotlight while
    the Christians who suffered through great trials and tribulations
    and still have a strong walk with God get no attention.

    The Gospel is that you are God’s enemy but through His son,
    He is reconciling the world back unto Himself.

    The Gospel is not Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan
    for your life. God doesn’t have a wonderful plan for your life.
    God is wonderful and that can make life worth the living
    even when times get tough, you get fired, you are accused
    falsely, you become sick, a father-in-law gets killed in a car
    wreck, you don’t get that raise, you aren’t voted most likely
    to succeed and your personal dreams don’t come true.

    God is wonderful and this life leads to the best of all possible worlds. If we can just realize that fact and know this life last a nanosecond in light of eternity, I think we will be okay.
    God is transforming us into the image of His Son, Jesus Christ
    and that is the true purpose of life. The Son learned obedience through the things He suffered. Why should we be any different. Are we better that the Son?

    God is our reward!!!

46. Kara P. on 26 Sep 2008 at 11:35 am #

    Scott- that is funny.

    David- I agree with you 100%. Out lives are going to be difficult. There’s no doubt about that. I don’t like the health, wealth, and prosperity message.

    However, I don’t think George left because he was having a bad life. He left because he didn’t understand questions regarding Hell, election, the story of the Tower of Babel….

    I think we all struggle with these concepts, stories, and doctrines. We have to be sensitive and careful when we discuss certain topics with others. And we can’t act like we know all the answers!

    We have to go and find that lost sheep, even if we are irritated with him for whining.

    Some people tend to focus on God’s goodness, love, mercy, and grace while others focus on God’s justice, wrath, and judgement. You have to look at the whole picture or you’ll be confused, like George (the guy who wrote the letter) or Joel Osteen (hahah). J/K

47. David Null on 26 Sep 2008 at 12:46 pm #

    Kara,

    Great points!!! I agree with your evaluation and
    judgement of the situation.

    Here is a link at youtube detailing real suffering!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzKZql62Cts

    Secondly, I’m also learning to say, “I don’t know”.

    David

48. Kara P. on 26 Sep 2008 at 5:50 pm #

    David- I know! This is heartbreaking. This is the stuff I don’t get. This is when I say,”I don’t know”. God knows
    and that’s about as comforting as it gets for me sometimes.

    And when you see a child suffer it’s even more difficult to stomach……….literally

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26Z7QIkoHhw

    You either draw close to God when you don’t understand the suffering (either temporal or eternal) or you try to run from Him. I can’t imagine turning away from God. What else would I have- some fickle theology that changes daily?

    Kara

49. whoschad on 27 Sep 2008 at 3:19 am #

    I think that nearly every point this guy makes is bad or hypocritical. Maybe he just didn’t write his thoughts down clearly, but these reasons and his subsequent reassurances are almost ridiculous.

    Consider these points in his letter:
    He says: “I really for the first time in my life read the Bible thoroughly”

    Then he sites 3 examples of things that appalled him – His doctrine of hell is childish nonsense, he apparently thinks that Revelations (with an ’s’) is all literal, and he almost INTENTIONALLY gets the entire point of Babel wrong.

    For him to say that this is ‘thorough’ study of the bible is a joke. Because of this, I find it hard to believe him when he says he read any books on apologetics. His level of study is practically non-existent.

    After this, he puts down his friends by saying of them: ‘they don’t accept me as-is – they need me to change in order for them to accept me’. AND THEN IN THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE HE DECLARES THAT HE WANTS TO CHANGE THEM! ‘Hopefully that will wear off’.

    Does he not see the hypocrisy in this? How can he fault his friends for doing the same thing he is doing?

    Finally he declares that he is ‘more Christian than ever’. Here is his proof: His wife has a Bible Study and since he shares a house with his wife, this apparently counts as being ‘more Christian than ever’. How in the world can it be said that this guy has done a lot of ’study’ on Christianity? The things he says are so backwards they’re ANTI-christian. From the sound of this letter this guy not only was never a Christian, but he never even understood Christianity. He keeps insisting that people sometimes do good things and that should count for something when weighed against the bad things. This is PROFOUNDLY anti-Christian.

    I can’t imagine that this person looked into Christianity at all when he was going through his crisis. Also, it sounds to me like this guy never even heard the gospel. If he had heard it and understood it he would not say the kinds of things he says in this letter.

    In the end I’d say this:
    1. Someone needs to tell him the gospel.
    2. Someone needs to tell him to put down whatever apologetics book he’s reading and get him some decent study materials.

50. Scott Ferguson on 29 Sep 2008 at 4:32 pm #

    whoschad: I think everyone agrees that George just didn’t “get it.” The question for Christians, I think, is how did he spend so many years faking/misunderstanding it and never get caught?

    I don’t mean to make light of it. This is a serious question. Church pews are filled with people who don’t get it: people who come for programs, to sing in the choir (who you looking at?!) and sell insurance. These might be relatively easy to spot but there are also many who think they get it or are like George. How does the ministry locate these people and how do they reach them? How do you move people from a superficial religion to a more mature one? Didn’t Willow Creek just figure out that there high and mighty plans to make disciples had fallen completely flat?

    I forget what blog brought up the topic of “discernment” but this is supposed to be a spiritual tool, right? Can it be developed? What is it exactly? These, I think, are the kinds of questions that Michael was trying to get at (hit me over the head if necessary, M.)

    BTW: There may be some sensitive souls who will be moved by being told that you are praying for them. However, the many non-believers will be, at best, bemused and, at worst, annoyed. By all means pray for us if you will but realize that confronting us with the fact may backfire.

51. gfsomsel on 05 Oct 2008 at 11:20 am #

    When I was in seminary I was on the verge of chucking the whole thing. I had trouble reconciling conservative dogma with scientific findings regarding the universe and critical views of the scripture. Conservatism tends to generate this sort of bind. Either you accept the statements of scripture as historically and scientifically true or you don’t believe the bible. It also tends to reduce faith to an acceptance of propositions. This is perhaps the most insidious thing of all. Get into a discussion in any group regarding “the faith” and they will begin discussing dogmas. Faith is not dogma but rather a trust in God as he has revealed himself in Jesus Christ set forth in the NT as loving his creation. It is thus a commitment to God and not a commitment to propositions about God. Sometimes I think our dogmatics constitutes the creation of a graven image since we attempt to set forth what God must be and do. We need to return to that very familiar verse

    For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

    We also need to follow that up with the next verses, especially the 2nd verse following it

    Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

    Man creates his own hell right here and right now through his failure to trust in the God who created the universe to be favorably inclined toward him and accepting.

    Fortunately, this George (yes, that’s my name) didn’t leave the faith. It was impossible for me to do so

    28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 What my Father has given me is greater than all else, and no one can snatch it out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

    Jn 10.28-30

    Admittedly, many today might question my credentials as a Christian since I don’t hold to a “verbal, plenary inspiration” and even regard some passages as being less than authoritative. It seems that the Church is ready to confess with the mouth that there is a progress to revelation, but, when it comes to any practical examples of this, they deny it.

52. Zach in Arizona on 17 Jan 2009 at 12:08 am #

    I would come to the conclusion it is mostly an emotional pride and lack of understanding of God’s Law.

    I feel sorry though that his friends would abandon him if that is the case, although he didnt specify to the degree of their withdrawl. I think it comes off as condescending because they dont understand their own fallen state.

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