Toward a Theology of Homosexuality
I have been asked this quite a few times over the years and the issue was brought up again recently. Can homosexuals be Christians? Or, better, is there such a thing as a “homosexual Christian.” Many would believe that someone who engages in a homosexual life style is necessarily excluded from the Kingdom of God unless they repent. Repentance here would mean a change of thinking about and, shortly following, action to change this lifestyle. In other words, while some would be willing to say that a homosexual can be saved, their salvation guarantees their change of lifestyle within a short period of time.
While I agree with those who say that homosexuality is a terrible sin (Lev. 18:22, 20:13 Rom. 1:27; 1 Cor. 6:6; 1 Tim. 1:10), I do not believe it is one that is outside the realm of a believer’s carnality. Neither do I believe that if one practices in homosexuality their entire life that they are necessarily excluded from the Kingdom of God. I hope that people do not misunderstand my purpose here. I, in no way endorse homosexual behavior or seek to relativise its abominable standing before the Lord. But I do think that we who are not tempted in such a way often fail to see the seriousness of the struggle that people go through who engage in this sin.
Sexual sin and temptation is part of everyone’s life. We are born with a drive toward fulfillment of this God-given part of our humanity. Some will deny this drive because of God’s calling in their lives (e.g. singleness). Yet sin has corrupted this drive and we are all born infected with sin. Because of upbringing, genetics, cultural influences, and other factors, people will experience this corruption to greater and lesser degrees. I personally have never felt any inclination toward expressing my sexual corruption in a way that was focused on the same sex. Why? Not necessarily because of good choices I have made, but because the genetics, upbringing, and influences were not there. I have just never had that sinful bent within me that compels me to lust after someone of the same sex. Don’t get me wrong. I have a sinful sexual bent, but it is of the more natural kind. This does not justify it or make me more innately righteous than the homosexual, it is just a fact that this is not a sin that I have ever had to deal with.
I thank God that this is the case because I know that whatever sinful bent I have it will get the better of me sometime. It is just the way it goes living with corruption. I also know that I will not be alleviated of my bents until the restoration of my body at the resurrection. I just have to do whatever I can to master it until then. And as the U2 song goes, “some days are better than others.” I can identify with sinners because I am one. I can identify with those who have a bent, because I have one (many actually). Therefore, when I see someone giving in to the bent of homosexuality, I am saddened. My heart goes out to them because their problem is essentially the same as mine. We have a corrupted nature that causes us to give in to our bents.
Now, back to the question of the hour. Can homosexuals be Christians? This is really a theological question that evidences a lack of understanding about sin and redemption. It reveals a major misconception about the nature of sin, placing homosexuality in its own category because of its depraved nature. While I do believe that homosexuality is a worse sin than many others (that is right, not all sins are equal like some would have us believe), I don’t believe that those who have that bent should be seen differently than others.
We could ask the question this way: Can people who have sinful bents be Christians? Of course. Who else can be? Christ was the only one that did not have a sinful bent. Okay then, how about this: Can people who have really bad sinful bents be Christians? Again, the only biblical answer is yes. People who have really bad sinful bents can be Christians. Really, the question that is being asked is this: Can sinners be Christians? Again, I say, is there any other kind?
Some would respond and say that while they are willing to concede that homosexuals can be Christians, they must be in the process of overcoming this sinful behavior. In other words, they must have consistent and perpetual victory over this bent. Hold on there. While I agree that homosexuals can and many times do have victory over this bent to the point where they redeem themselves completely from this lifestyle, I don’t necessarily think that this is always going to happen. I would say that in my life there are some bents that I feel I have had victory over, and some that remain as a nagging persistent web. This web is one of deception and destruction that can easily trip us up. Listen to the writer of the book of Hebrews:
“Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith” (Hebrews 12:1-2).
The writer of Hebrews says that it is “easy” to get entangled in this web. The passage warns of the ten euperistaton hamartian–literally, “the easy ensnaring sin.” I believe that the primary referent for “the easily ensnaring sin” is the sin of unbelief (the subject of the book), but this sin of unbelief expresses itself in the sin of the hour. In other words, the sin of unbelief leads forth to our practicing of our particular bent. Most importantly, it is “easy” to fall into this.
Again, while I agree that homosexuals can and should be overcoming this sin, it could be the case that they have become entangled in it. This entanglement may be the very acts of homosexuality or it might be the plight of struggling with it until redemption. It is no different for those of us who are not bent toward a homosexual lifestyle. Some of our most serious bents may plague us, literally, until Kingdom come.
Many refer to Paul admonishing the Corinthians to look back to their victory over sin, implying that they did not practice such things any longer or were completely delivered from them. One of these sins is homosexuality.
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
While this seems straight forward upon a cursory reading, I don’t believe that it supports the case that homosexuals can’t be Christians for two primary reasons. First, the people to whom Paul was writing were sinners and were in the process of being rebuked by Paul. Notice here just three chapters back:
“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?” (1 Cor. 3:1-3).
They were fleshly. The sins described in 6:9-10 are fleshly sins. This means that the Corinthians were not necessarily doing well. Yet Paul says they were washed and sanctified. Now either Paul has a slight case of amnesia or we have to understand 6:9-11 differently which brings me to the second reason I believe that this passage cannot be used in support of the person who says homosexuals cannot be Christians. Paul identifies Christians with Christ, not with their sinful disposition. In Pauline thought, people who are clothed in Christ’s righteousness are no longer named according to their sinful bent, even if that bent may continue to entangle them. The Corinthians were entangled in their bents to be sure, but Paul sees them through the righteousness of Christ. This is why Paul could say “such were some of you.” This does not make their sinfulness any less severe, but it does say that Christ’s redemption, in Pauline theology, has redeemed the sinner, while still in a sinning state. Those without the covering of Christ’s righteousness are still identified with their sin in the eyes of God. Therefore, understanding this context, it is true, fornicators, thieves, covetous, homosexuals and all unrighteous people (those not covered by Christ’s righteousness) will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But thankfully, we have been covered by His righteousness and set apart, even though we are still sinners.
One more thing. I often hear this concession: While I believe that homosexuals can be saved, they cannot believe that homosexuality is approved by God or attempt to justify their sin. While I understand and agree with this to some degree, I still hold back and say that this is not always the case. We all have ways of justifying our bents, whatever they may be. Sometimes we minimize their seriousness, while other times we outright deny them. It is also often the case that we just do not ever deal with them. Peter lived twelve years after the resurrection of Christ justifying his belief that Jews were better than Gentiles. He lived twelve years after becoming a Christian believing that he, by virtue of being a Jew, was so much better than Gentiles that he would not even set foot in their house. Speaking to the Gentile Cornelius and his family, he said, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean” (Acts 10:28). What if Peter had died in year eleven? He would have died living his entire Christian life as a prideful racist. Racism is spoken of more in the New Testament as a mark of ungodliness than homosexuality. Therefore, while I believe that the conviction of the Holy Spirit should be there and it should change our hearts, we have this uncanny bent to justify our sinfulness to ourselves and to others or to just ignore it.
Having said all this, we all need to recognize the utter sinfulness of sexual perversion. Homosexuality is a sin, and a terribly destructive one at that. But we need to be careful and gracious with those who struggle with this sin, understanding that the struggle against sin is in the plight of us all. The solution is for us to be non-compromising to the political correct agenda of our culture to turn all sin into a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice, but at the same time to be gracious, knowing that the only hope that anyone has is to be covered in Christ’s righteousness, not our own.
Can a homosexual be Christian. Yes. All sinners can be Christians. Indeed, all Christians are sinners. Let us all view this important issue in light of a deep understanding of the plight of sinfulness and may God help us to overcome the resulting bents.
“Sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it” (Genesis 4:7).
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- The Future of Justification: A Review (Part 2)
- Where I stand on all things 3
- Sin is Fun
- Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? - Part 5 - Are You Emerging?
- Thank You God for Imputing Adam’s Sin to Me

bethyada on 22 Sep 2008 at 5:10 am #
I am in agreement with the general thrust of this post. My issue lies in the latter paragraphs. Christianity is about a life lived for God. That means that even those who struggle with sin will be offended by it. They will gain pleasure from sin, else they are less likely to be tempted, but there is often a sense of guilt, if not while sinning, in times of asking for victory or forgiveness.
While we cannot know our every last sin, the sinner who knows Christ will have his Spirit working within them. God will have his reasons as to what he wishes to deal with first but it seems unlikely that we will be completely unaware of grievous sins our whole lives while despairing over the odd cigarette.
I doubt those who claim that God approves of their homosexuality, or try to change the church’s stance on it, are saved. Becoming more Christlike, even if very slowly, is the mark of salvation; glorying in our shame is not.
Just Asking on 22 Sep 2008 at 8:18 am #
Is adultery a sin or not?
Adultery = sex outside a Christian marriage of 1 man and 1 woman.
Hetero or Homo is irrelevant.
Unfortunately, in our culture, sexual prefernece = identity, and acting out sexual urges = virtue.
Hot potato links « lingamish.com on 22 Sep 2008 at 8:32 am #
[...] C. Michael Patton: Toward a Theology of Homosexuality [...]
Steve Myers on 22 Sep 2008 at 9:06 am #
There is one more aspect to your post that is fundamentally important to those Christians who struggle with sinful behavior, particularly with this difficult sin.
A justified believer is a new creature in Christ. When one becomes a child of God they take on a new nature, leaving the old behind. Baptism is required by the Lord to signify this change.
Therefore, as a new creature in Christ one no longer is a homosexual. Although the sinful desire may still be there, and even acted on, it is most important for the believer to know who they are in Christ. Further, Romans clearly declares the legal obligation to sin has been broken by Christ and we are free.
Again, Romans tells us to let God transform us into a new person by the changing the way we think. For a person, in this case, to still see themselves as a homosexual is contrary to what God has done in them. Confusing the sinful desire with a continued identification to the past is a fatal mistake that leads to a continued struggle and failure to be delivered from their sin.
Thankfully, 1 John 1 tells us that Jesus died for our sins, past, present and future, thereby assuring us even if we fall and confess, we are forgiven. No wonder Paul was able to make such a powerful declaration in Romans 8:31-39 about never being separated from God’s love!
For the past 32 years in ministry and having a number of brethren in counseling with this sin, I have found that by establishing who they are in Christ helps lead many to living an overcoming life in freedom.
What a wonderful Father we have that saves us and never abandons us in the sins we struggle with!
stephen on 22 Sep 2008 at 9:32 am #
You comments are generous to the understanding of the homosexual lifestyle. In terms of the Church it is an acceptable opinion. The problem then arises how does our society deal with the issue. Because, now homosexuals want the right to marry each other and have acceptance recognized by the state. This would grant them tax status as a married couple insurance benefits at companies they work for. What would be is the homosexuals changing the world to fit their sinful lifestyle. And as you know scripture teaches that, it is the Christians who are supposed to be turning the world upside down.
C. Barton on 22 Sep 2008 at 10:06 am #
Perhaps the distinction is more than trivial: being saved vs. being Christian. In the letter from James, I believe that he is saying, “You say that you’re a Christian by your faith (belief and intellectual assent), but I would rather prove my faith by how I live (external works based on faith).” In other words, what good is faith if you have nothing to show for it?
This, I believe, is the tension between faith (being saved) and the transformation of a life into Christ-Likeness (being Christian).
If a secular doctor called me into her office, sat me down, and told me I had a fatal disease, I would naturally expect her to discuss treatment and remediation.
So, Christ, being our spiritual “doctor”, has given us a diagnosis. Sin is deadly!
How long does it take to cure sin? An hour? A year? Perhaps a lifetime?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 22 Sep 2008 at 11:08 am #
What seems to differentiate the sin of same-sex behavior from other sins is the militant degree to which proponents and aiders-and-abetters of same-sex behavior will utterly and staunchly declare that same-sex behavior is NOT a sin.
I wonder if CMP notices this.
ScottL on 22 Sep 2008 at 11:27 am #
Michael -
You stated - ‘Really, the question that is being asked is this: Can sinners be Christians? Again, I say, is there any other kind?’
I think you read some of my blogging on Theologica, but I really struggle with the statement: sinners are Christians. I am not sure this allows for us to embrace the FULL gospel. The great reformed theologian, John Murray, in Principles of Conduct, stated it this way:
‘The old man is the unregenerate man; the new man is the regenerate man created in Christ Jesus unto good works. It is no more feasible to call the believer a new man and an old man, than it is to call him a regenerate man and an unregenerate.’
The radical nature of the gospel says we are have been changed into new creations, given new hearts, indwelt by the third person of the Godhead Himself, with a radically new disposition within. I don’t claim perfectionism for any Christian, but we are either a new man or old man, regenerate or unregenerate, saint of sinner. It is impossible to be both, as John Murray makes clear above.
I know many will point to Paul’s statement in 1 Timothy 1:15 - ‘The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.’ But consider that this is the ONLY time referred to himself as a sinner post-conversion, and compare that with the overwhelming testimony of his references about who we are in Christ.
I think it is healthy to, at times, recognize who we are apart from Christ, which I believe Paul was doing in 1 Timothy 1:15. But, in all, the radical nature of the gospel says we are not just ’sinners saved by grace’, but rather ‘we were sinners, Christ made us new creations and saints, and now we are able to walk out His calling in our lives.’ Yet, again, not embracing perfectionism.
So, for those struggling with homosexuality (as the article is about), one’s confession should be that they are new creations in Christ, but still learning to submit this part of their life to Christ on a daily basis, instead of ‘I am a homosexual Christian.’ The confession is not, ‘I am an alcoholic Christian’, but rather I have become a new creation in Him and I am submitting this struggle with alcohol to Him on a daily basis.
If a person keeps getting told hundreds of times that he is stupid, guess what, he will believe it. And he will begin to confess it himself. But Christ says, ‘You are mine, a saint, transformed by my power, a new creation. Go and live it.’
I hope you understand my heart.
M. Jay Bennett on 22 Sep 2008 at 11:31 am #
I recommend this work on sanctification: John Owen, On the Mortification of Sin in Believers
anonymous on 22 Sep 2008 at 11:46 am #
anonymous
Wow Michael you are touching on some heavy stuff here
Let me describe two Christians to you and your readers both are Gay (or perhaps bisexual) and I have every reason to believe are (or were) God fearing:
One man fights the passions that he believes are sinful but occasionally falls to temptation. When he fails it is inevitably in cheep casual relationships of the most sorted type. After each affair he is overcome with guilt repents and promises God and Himself he will not fall again. Sadly he does again and again.
The Second Man accepted that his homosexuality was the result of a broken and fallen world where no mere human being could hope to be truly holy in the sight of God apart from Christ’s sacrificial blood. He determined to live a life of love and faithfulness to a man that he loves and try’s to be faithful to him.
I knew both of these men the first was my Uncle the Second was (for a brief time my Priest). The first man dead of Aids nearly 20 years ago he left a wife and three children behind and he was as an aside a pillar in his local Baptist Church.
The Second Man ministers to a small working class Anglo Catholic inner-city parish and is a chaplain at a local mental hospital. To this day he serves faithfully his partner, His church and his community.
Which of these men are the most faithfully Christian. I was once sure and am now no longer.
God Bless
I am not useing my name since I do not wish to jeopardize the reputation of either man.
M. Jay Bennett on 22 Sep 2008 at 11:51 am #
I think a better question than
“What sin can I do and still be saved?”
is
“How can I live my life in a way that honors the person and work of Jesus Christ on my behalf? In other words, how can I live in a manner that honors the great salvation Christ has purchased with his own blood for me?”
Homosexual behavior dishonors Christ. It is not a viable option for the redeemed.
Chuck Thomas on 22 Sep 2008 at 12:01 pm #
Michael: A very thoughtful piece. And irenic to boot.
Perhaps I missed it in the article, or simply misunderstood, but given your views above, it seems to beg the question then, how should the church respond to the current struggles over the ordination of practicing homosexuals, and the performance of same sex marriages (in the states where they have been legalized)? Since a complete turning away from this lifestyle is not conditional for salvation as I undertand your article, it would seem to suggest that as long as a homosexual person claims salvation, although continuing to struggle with their “bent”, they are as qualified as the heterosexual who is equally saved yet struggling with THEIR “bent” to be trained and ordained, or, married in the church.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 22 Sep 2008 at 12:14 pm #
Homosexual behavior dishonors Christ.
M. Jay Bennett, please see my #3 post. Would you agree that there are many professing Christians who declare that same-sex behavior is NOT a sin?
And if these professing Christians declare that same-sex behavior is NOT a sin, then your statement above does not hold…. according to them.
Capisce?
It is not a viable option for the redeemed.
I agree. But see my comments directly above.
johnMark on 22 Sep 2008 at 12:29 pm #
Could we take some context from Scripture, change the topic and ask some similar questions?
Toward A Theology of Sexual Immorality: Is there such a thing as a “Sexual Immoral Christian?”
Toward A Theology of Idolatery: Is there such a thing as an “Idolater Christian?”
Toward A Theology of Adultery: Is there such a thing as an “Adulterer Christian?”
Toward A Theology of Male Prostitutes: Is there such a thing as a “Male Prostitute Christian?”
Toward A Theology of Thieves: Is there such a thing as a “Thieving Christian?”
Toward A Theology of Greed: Is there such a thing as a “Greedy Christian?”
Toward A Theology of Drunkards: Is there such a thing as “Drunkard Christians?”
Toward A Theology of Slanderers: Is there such a thing as “Slanderer Christians?”
Toward A Theology of Swindlers: Is there such a thing as “Swindler Christians?”
Those are the words used in the NIV translation in 1 Cor. 6:9-10. Yes, it may be a little overboard, but it makes the point. Or, atleast makes one think, I hope.
Would these topics inserted in the original post change the appeal? Get a different reaction? I just don’t see people defending (used loosely) the other “life styles.” Those are not life identifiers we are comfortable allowing people to remain in so why homosexuality?
Just raising some questions.
Mark
Anonymous on 22 Sep 2008 at 12:39 pm #
I recognize that salvation does not necessarily entail the removal of our sinful bents, and thus I think one can be a Christian all the while continuing to struggle with same-sex attraction. Having said that, regeneration does empower us to mortify the sins of the flesh. Someone who is living their faith (rather than making a historic confession) like James speaks of, should have evidence of that faith, both in the kind of person they become, and the things they do or don’t do. I fail to see how someone can “practice…homosexuality their entire life” and yet “not necessarily be excluded from the kingdom of God.” I fail to see how that person is living in faith.
Like many people today, I did not marry until late in my 20s. My hormones were raging for 15 years. You may or may not know how desperately I wanted to have sex. It was a constant struggle. Sometimes I think I may have had sexual obsessions. I wanted sex so badly that I contemplated going to a prostitute (so no one in the church would know). But I never did. I retained my sexual purity until the day of my wedding. There is nothing special about same-sex attraction. I’m sure it is strong (especially for men), but it’s not stronger than heterosexual attraction. It’s just directed towards a different gender. If I, by the power of the Spirit, can overcome my sinful bent, then there is no excuse for those struggling with same-sex attraction. The power to overcome the bent is not within ourselves. It is within God. If we fail to overcome our bent, it is a failure of yielding to the Spirit, which is a failure of faith. That’s not to say we’ll never have failures, but a life that is characterized by failure is not a life of faith.
Marvin the Martian on 22 Sep 2008 at 1:02 pm #
Homosexual behavior dishonors Christ. It is not a viable option for the redeemed.
With all due respect M. Jay, couldn’t it be argued that ANY sinful behavior dishonors Christ and therefore is not a viable option for the redeemed?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 22 Sep 2008 at 1:02 pm #
JohnMark in #9,
Thank you for supporting my comments in #3 and #8.
People who are committing other sins are not campaigning ardently like the GLBTers are when it comes to getting their behavior recognized and accepted socially and culturally as being NOT a sin.
The Church, and many leaders and spokesmen within the broader Church, are losing the Salt and Light that Christ calls them to be when they fail to recognize that there are people, even professing Christians, who are declaring that a sin is not a sin.
“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil.”
(Isaiah 5:20a)
Marvin the Martian on 22 Sep 2008 at 1:29 pm #
People who are committing other sins are not campaigning ardently like the GLBTers are when it comes to getting their behavior recognized and accepted socially and culturally as being NOT a sin.
I think the line of distinction has to be drawn with regards to this very line of thinking. I don’t have a problem with a homosexual who professes faith in Christ, as long as that homosexual also agrees with God vis a vis the sinfullness of the lifestyle, and does all that is within him/her to repent of said lifestyle. Some will struggle with varying degrees of success. But we CANNOT look into their heart and see what is going on there. We cannot know if their spirit is tormented by their struggle with the sin.
I believe we must excercise extreme caution and mercy towards this issue. It is so easy to sit in the seat of judgement, but if a “hardline” approach is taken here, then those who struggle with other sexual sin that are considered more “normal” are by definition also excluded from the faith.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 22 Sep 2008 at 1:47 pm #
I believe we must exercise truth-in-love in upholding and proclaiming the Word of God towards this issue.
It is so easy to not uphold God’s Word, and to shrink back from proclaiming what the Word teaches in order to become people-pleasers, and if a “softline” approach is taken here, then the Authority of God’s Word is diluted and neutered… by the very same people charged to be Salt and Light in a broken and fallen world.
How sad is it when professing, self-identified Christians enable sin, and aid-and-abet sin to occur because of an unwillingness to proclaim God’s Word, perhaps due to a spiritually unhealthy desire to be a people-pleaser.
The Church is hollowed out from the inside with these “softline” sin-enabler Christians. And what’s worse, the people who need the true gospel the most, are unwittingly denied the true gospel by these “softline” sin-enabler Christians. How sad.
Marvin the Martian on 22 Sep 2008 at 1:53 pm #
It is so easy to not uphold God’s Word, and to shrink back from proclaiming what the Word teaches in order to become people-pleasers, and if a “softline” approach is taken here, then the Authority of God’s Word is diluted and neutered… by the very same people charged to be Salt and Light in a broken and fallen world.
TUAD
Are you implying that I am a “softliner” diluting the Word?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:04 pm #
MTM,
Are you implying that I am a “hardliner” for affirming God’s Word with truth-in-love?
Marvin the Martian on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:09 pm #
TUAD,
I asked you first.
ScottL on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:09 pm #
I think Chuck’s inquiry is a very good one to ponder -
‘Since a complete turning away from this lifestyle is not conditional for salvation as I understand your article, it would seem to suggest that as long as a homosexual person claims salvation, although continuing to struggle with their “bent”, they are as qualified as the heterosexual who is equally saved yet struggling with THEIR “bent” to be trained and ordained, or, married in the church.’
But, I believe in the end, it has to do with a person’s disposition about their own personal sin. Are they humbly and willingly looking to submit to Christ and others in the body of Christ to be a support to them. The same is true for one who is regularly struggling with getting drunk, former alcoholic. They need to be renewed in mind that they are now a new creation with a new heart and can come through in this. But they have to have a repentant heart, a change of mind towards the sin, whatever it may be.
Also, we must give time for people to grow in the faith. As Paul said in 1 Tim 5:22 - ‘Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands…’ We have to be careful about appointing leadership too quickly - for the specific sake of the person and the sake of the local church. For some, it might be a few years to walk through something, for others, it might be a couple of decades to reach a place of maturity to lead.
It all takes much pastoral care and spiritual discernment in these matters.
Marvin the Martian on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:16 pm #
But, I believe in the end, it has to do with a person’s disposition about their own personal sin.
I agree. And it begs the question, can someone be in total agreement with God about their own sin, hate their own sin even to the point of hating themselves for their own sin, and yet still be in bondage to that sin?
Crazyupstart on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:32 pm #
I agree with Truth Unites,
I think “Christians” take issue with homo’s very publicly because homo’s make it a public issue.
I agree that a Christian can have a homosexual bent, just like having a fornicational bent, and still be a Christian. I believe the matter comes down to the “go and sin no more” command Christ gave to the person with an adulterous bent. We all are sinners. We all struggle with besetting sins. But the work of Christ in us gives us shame over our sin, not pride in it or open confession that you are struggling with it yet refusal to drop the sin for the name of Christ; which seems to be the way of the homosexual.
Now we can turn this on any of the other sins mentioned, yet the major difference is that no one is campaigning for the others to be broadly acceptable lifestyles while one is “working on it.” Could you approve of a man in the church who openly professed that he had regular fornication problems with girls in the church and wanted it accepted as a part of his Christian makeup, his personal struggle? No. I think 1 Cor. addresses this pretty early. Sexual immorality of any sort must be dealt with immediately.
We are told to go and sin no more, not necessarily go and struggle no more. Struggling is a part of the Christian walk, but there is a difference between pondering (Temptation), struggling (Lust) and action (sin). Those who are still tempted and lusting after homosexuality are different from those who are taking action on it.
So can practicing homo’s be called Christian? No. No more than practicing rapists or murderers.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:35 pm #
MTM,
I don’t think we’re that far apart.
Here’s one of my points (which some grasp): CMP’s article on a theology of homosexuality seems to assume that there’s widespread agreement among Christians that same-sex behavior is a sin.
I am merely pointing out that there are numerous Christians who don’t accept CMP’s assumption that same-sex behavior is a sin. Thus, I argue that his article should start in a different place. He should first establish that Scripture clearly teaches that same-sex behavior is a sin. Only after establishing this critical foundation, then should he go on and talk about how to minister, love, and live out the Great Commission to the GLBT community.
Because if you can’t get widespread agreement on whether the Bible teaches that same-sex behavior is a sin, then how can you expect to get widespread agreement on how to minister to GLBTers who don’t think that same-sex behavior is a sin?
Furthermore, it would also be immensely helpful if CMP were to discuss what and how to address those Christians who staunchly maintain that same-sex behavior is NOT a sin.
ScottL on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:40 pm #
Marvin the Martian, you said -
‘I agree. And it begs the question, can someone be in total agreement with God about their own sin, hate their own sin even to the point of hating themselves for their own sin, and yet still be in bondage to that sin?’
Possibly. Each person and situation is different. I have seen many people seem sorry and sad over their sin, but still never break through. This is where we get into wondering if their is a much deeper bondage, or even demonic oppression in which deliverance from such needs to come. Someone might be saved, but they are so locked up that it is going to take a greater measure of spiritual warfare (and do know I don’t consider myself a way-over-the-top person in this). But even in my young life I have seen people feel sad about their sin and situation but never break through. And sometimes, it goes deep with demonic activity and serious bondage.
But, in the end, each case is different. We need discernment in it all.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:50 pm #
Let’s put on our imagination caps.
Suppose you (or I) are an active homosexual with no relationship with Jesus Christ.
And suppose you want to continue to be an active homosexual and you now want to have a relationship with Jesus Christ.
You have a liberal Protestant friend (or an Emerger friend) who tells you that same-sex behavior is NOT a sin. You also have a biblical Christian friend who loves you just as much as the LibProt or the Emerger, but this biblical Christian lovingly, softly, tearfully informs you in the course of presenting the whole gospel of Christ that the Bible teaches that same-sex behavior is a sin. And that you need to confess, surrender, ask for forgiveness of this sin, and to repent of this sin, along with all your other sins.
Questions:
(1) You want to continue your same-sex behavior and still be called a Christian. Who are you going to want to be with: the LibProt/Emerger or the Biblical Christian?
(2) Who pleased God more: the LibProt/Emerger or the Biblical Christian?
ScottL on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:53 pm #
Hmmm…I guess you are hinting that a ‘liberal Protestant’ and an ‘emerger’ cannot be a biblical Christian?
Marvin the Martian on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:55 pm #
TUAD,
I agree. I do not doubt in any fashion that the Bible is crystal clear that homosexuality is sin, and a grevious sin. I accept this. Any homosexual who seeks to walk with Christ should also.
But I can say from personal experience that I struggle with more “normal” sins, and sometimes (I say this with much shame and tears) it manifests itself in a bondage type situation where the compulsion just feels so strong I feel helpless to resist. I know that is just my sinful nature decieving me, however when the sting of temptation strikes, one rarely thinks rationally.
I empathize with the feelings that a homosexual must feel if they truly are born again. Make no mistake, I know that my personal struggles are utterly sinful and wicked, and I would expect any professing Christian who struggles with homosexuality to think the same way. Personally, it has robbed me of my assurance of salvation. I hate myself for continually feeding my flesh. But I also have to believe that I wouldn’t be feeling any of this if I wasn’t born again. I have to believe that if I wasn’t regenerate, I simply just wouldn’t care.
This is where I am coming from.
ScottL on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:56 pm #
Crazyupstart -
You stated - ‘Struggling is a part of the Christian walk, but there is a difference between pondering (Temptation), struggling (Lust) and action (sin).’
I think it very difficult to refer to struggling as lust, as if lust is not sin. Lust is sin, for Jesus said, ‘but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart’ (Matt 5:28).
Maybe it is more that struggle = temptation; lust = sin.
ScottL on 22 Sep 2008 at 2:59 pm #
Truth Unites -
I think Michael did state what you thought he should start with - ‘While I agree with those who say that homosexuality is a terrible sin (Lev. 18:22, 20:13 Rom. 1:27; 1 Cor. 6:6; 1 Tim. 1:10), I do not believe it is one that is outside the realm of a believer’s carnality.’
Maybe it was too brief for what you wanted. Maybe he has written something else on the topic.
ScottL on 22 Sep 2008 at 3:06 pm #
Marvin
I think the first place to start for all Christians is the realization that we are in Christ, new creations, with new hearts, and a new disposition to follow. I think when we start to truly get a glimpse of the power of the gospel, we know what Christ has done and is doing in us by the third person of the Trinity that indwells us.
Most Christians love to say, ‘I am a sinner.’ But I don’t know if that is the full picture of the gospel. Would you say you are a an unregenerate believer? No, of course not. One can only be a regenerate believer. Thus, one can only be a new creation in Christ, not an old creation in Christ. One cannot have a new nature and an old nature. One is either/or, not both.
Paul teaches our old self was crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20) and our old self died (Rom 6:6; Eph 4:20-24; Col 3:9-10). So we are now new with our sinful nature dead. We continue to submit our fallen flesh to Christ daily. But I am amazed how much change takes place in a person’s behavior when they start realizing the power of God that came and made them completely new!
Truth Unites... and Divides on 22 Sep 2008 at 3:26 pm #
Quoting myself: “Furthermore, it would also be immensely helpful if CMP were to discuss what and how to address those Christians who staunchly maintain that same-sex behavior is NOT a sin.”
If CMP would do this, then we can observe first-hand how CMP expresses doctrinal disagreement to the Glory of God with those Christians who profess that same-sex is NOT a sin.
Vladimir on 22 Sep 2008 at 3:50 pm #
There are many ways to address this issue. It certainly is a major one (but not the only one) that the devil is using to divide Christendom. His enmity against the truth of God is intense and he has had over thousands of years honed his craft and web of deceit.
Jesus made it plain in St Matthew 10:34: “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” (NIV)
With the Einbrechen/intrusion of the Kingdom of Heaven into this fallen realm the enmity and hostility between the two kingdoms is highlighted and acerbated (cf Genesis 3:15, the protevangelium)
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.” (NIV)
But, with regard to this particular issue, the exposition of St Paul in Romans 1 makes it plain that all sins can be forgiven according to God’s gracious plan of redemption. This is in accord with Jesus’s own dicta in St Matthew 12:30-32:
30″He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” (NIV)
True believers sin everyday in “thought, word or deed” and confession and repentance are required according to the Scriptures. But, sanctification is both a progressive work - yet supernatural. It is the office of the Holy Spirit to santify his people (cf Romans 1:4 with 2 Corinthians 1:12 and Hebrews 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21).
In the Greek text of St Matthew the personal reflexive pronoun is used to emphasize who is and does save:
20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he [himself] will save his people from their sins.” (NIV)
No matter how one approaches this ethical issue, the Scriptures make it plain that for those whom God has made willing to struggle, fight and overcome the promise of Christ’s victory for them stands:
19He will not quarrel or cry out;
no one will hear his voice in the streets.
20A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
till he leads justice to victory.
21In his name the nations will put their hope.”
(St Matthew 12:19-21; Isaiah 42:1-4; cf Romans 8:28ff)
Vladimir
Mike J on 22 Sep 2008 at 4:28 pm #
CMP:
I like the Christ-alone Christ-centred Christ-righteousness thrust of the post. That is fantastic.
If I could add one thing, and I think it would alleviate the primary reservations that I would have about what you’ve said, it would be this - although I know you’re speaking generally here:
We should take great care not to implicitly presume upon individual salvation, and should take care to look for biblical evidences that lend to assurance. Many do just fine presuming without our assisting them in the matter.
C Michael Patton on 22 Sep 2008 at 4:34 pm #
Wow! I did not think there were any responses. I normally get emailed when someone responds. I guess I need to look into what is up.
It would seem that many here don’t recognize the degree to which I am saying homosexuality is abominable. You should see the personal emails that I am getting, blasting me for giving in to the liberal agenda and speaking in an unChristian way. I don’t get it. I think the Romans 1 speaks of homosexuality as one of the most depraved sins there is.
As well, I must repeat that I do believe Christians can and should have victory over their sin. But what I am saying is the Romans 7 does not ALWAYS proceed to Romans 8. It should, but it does not. I am sorry that I am not more optimistic about this, but, as of today, I have lived 36 years with these bents (today is my birthday). I can still VERY EASILY get entangled in sin just as much as when I was 20.
Be careful folks that you don’t normalize your experience. Some people struggle much more than you do. This does not justify any fall, but it keeps us able to judge with wisdom.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 22 Sep 2008 at 4:41 pm #
Have a very happy birthday, CMP!
P.S. Although you blogging “many here don’t recognize the degree to which I am saying homosexuality is abominable” wouldn’t be my idea of something that I’d celebrate my birthday with.
Take a break from this blog, CMP! And enjoy your birthday!!
C Micahel Patton on 22 Sep 2008 at 4:58 pm #
Well, I wrote it yesterday!
Susan on 22 Sep 2008 at 5:18 pm #
Happy birthday to you,
happy birthday to you!
happy birthday dear Michael…..
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!!!!!
(so young, but so wise!)
C Michael Patton on 22 Sep 2008 at 5:35 pm #
Thanks Susan!
kwk on 22 Sep 2008 at 6:11 pm #
Several commenters have stated/hinted that homosexual activity is “less bad” or “more forgivable” if the homosexual person in question thinks such actions are wrong and consistently repents, even if they continue to engage in such sin at times. However, noticeably fewer commenters seem to think that those who don’t believe it is sin are saved/forgiven/worthy of the name Christian.
What about those who believe it is not a sin, and yet do not engage in any homosexual acts whatsoever? Are they condemned because they have an incorrect view of sin, even if it doesn’t manifest itself directly in their life? If a particular sin itself can be forgiven, cannot also an incorrect view of that sin?
I think each society (or segment thereof) can have sins to which it is blind. Years ago, slave-taking and -keeping was one such sin in America…are all who participated in keeping and trading slaves, including the Christians among the Founding Fathers, therefore condemned? What about those of us nowadays who are blind to our own materialistic acquisitiveness?
If the Psalmist hadn’t commented on this (”Who can discern his errors? Cleanse me from my hidden sins.”) I would be significantly more worried about losing my own salvation due to my personal “blind spots”. Does that mean sin is any less sinful? Of course not. But if God can forgive our egregious, willful sins, then surely he can forgive our sins of ignorance as well?
Vladimir on 22 Sep 2008 at 7:05 pm #
kwk,
There are many examples of true and false teaching/teachers in the Bible. The bottom line is simple:
19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. 21 Distressed and hungry, they will roam through the land; when they are famished, they will become enraged and, looking upward, will curse their king and their God. (Isaiah 8:19-21 NIV)
St Paul knew what was required of the coming generations and gave directions toward this end:
25″Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood. 29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. 32″Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33I have not coveted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. 34You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. 35In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ 36When he had said this, he knelt down with all of them and prayed. 37They all wept as they embraced him and kissed him. 38What grieved them most was his statement that they would never see his face again. Then they accompanied him to the ship.” (Acts 20:25-35 NIV)
St Paul to Timothy:
13What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. 14Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us. 2 Timothy 1:13f NIV)
as well as
10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:10-17 NIV)
and of course
1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. (2 Timothy 4:1-5 NIV)
There are many other passages that highlight not only the disparity in conduct between the true and false teachers but also their teachings as well.
Now what of your query about forgiveness for those who may have accidently mislead someone else?
St James addresses this:
1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. (St James 3:1f)
St. Augustine was so conscientious about this responsibility that he wrote his retractions (i.e., re-treatments) to better express what he had formally said.
Forgiveness belongs to the one who is rich in mercy and I hear that He is merciful to the merciful (St. Matthew 5:7)
Vladimir
Crazyupstart on 22 Sep 2008 at 7:39 pm #
My earlier comment was to the tune of James 1:14-15
“14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.”
1) We are tempted (in whatever direction, by our flesh)
2) We have the inward battle of the mind (still not yet sin)
3) When we loose the said battle, our hands take action.
I do believe there are sins of the heart and mind, but I recognize the inward battle as more of a battling of the spirit with the flesh. Doing battle isn’t sin, loosing the battle and letting the hate and lust consume us, that is sin.
It is of my opinion that when Christ spoke of looking at a woman lustfully, He was speaking about that thing that men do to bring themselves sexual release. They have to be thinking of someone. I don’t think that the lust He was speaking to in Matt. 5 was simple thought battles.
Neil Damgaard on 22 Sep 2008 at 7:44 pm #
Happy birthday Michael!!! Hope it was a good one for you.
EricW on 22 Sep 2008 at 9:23 pm #
CCM singer/composer Ray Boltz’s “coming out” puts a familiar and well-known (and loved) face on this question:
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2008/9-12/arts/feature/13258.cfm?page=1
Peter on 22 Sep 2008 at 9:39 pm #
What’s more interesting to me is how you think your view should play out in the church. On one extreme would be saying, maybe homosexuals can be saved, but we’re not letting them into church till they repent. On the other extreme seems to be immediately appointing all homosexuals to the bishopric.
C Michael Patton on 23 Sep 2008 at 2:47 am #
Eric, that was a very interesting article (did not think much of the site
)
He said:
“I’d denied it ever since I was a kid. I became a Christian, I thought that was the way to deal with this and I prayed hard and tried for 30-some years and then at the end, I was just going, ‘I’m still gay. I know I am.’ And I just got to the place where I couldn’t take it anymore … when I was going through all this darkness, I thought, ‘Just end this.’”
In my mind I think “yes, of course…you are still a sinner. But this should not be anything new.” Well, maybe that is too much since I understand that some will completely win the battle. But I wonder if we don’t contribute to this problem by acting as if there is a sin recovery program. With other sinners, we simply learn to deal with it, making our pursuit of God greater than the sin.
I guess the question I have is this: Should be we be trying to cure the problem?
ScottL on 23 Sep 2008 at 8:27 am #
Michael -
Do you possibly see a problem with this statement - ‘In my mind I think “yes, of course…you are still a sinner.”‘
How can one continually be called a sinner and then be expected to walk out the calling of God in their life? How can one continue to be called a sinner and expected to walk out a sanctified life in Christ? It’s impossible. They contradict.
I don’t want to lean so far as to embrace perfection for the Christian in this age, or even disregard that people can and do struggle with sin. I have struggled with deep things. But a radical transformation of the mind comes when we know our old self was crucified, God made us completely new in Him, we not only had Christ’s righteousness imputed to us but also infused into us, and we have a new spiritual DNA. Again, we live in a fallen world and must die to the flesh regularly. But we can see the transformation of someone’s mind and disposition when they begin to recognize the power of the gospel.
The cross is not just a place of forgiveness, nor the end of the story (I know you know this). There is the resurrection, the ascension, and pouring out the indwelling power of God through His Spirit. This seems so central to the gospel and Christ’s work.
Aaron Blumer on 23 Sep 2008 at 9:10 am #
I appreciate this thoughtful article.
For those who want to do more reading on the topic, you might find two articles at SharperIron helpful.
http://www.sharperiron.org/2007/07/11/thinking-biblically-about-homosexuality-part-1/
http://sharperiron.org/2007/07/25/thinking-biblically-about-homosexuality-part-2/
It’s so important that we look at this sin in the overall context of what Scripture teaches about sin and desire and not use a couple of particularly dramatic texts to back a distorted view that ultimately helps no one.
SteveT on 23 Sep 2008 at 9:32 am #
I think we’re missing a bit of the issue here. I think Michael makes a very valid point that people can and do still struggle with any sort of sin. The difficulty I have is that the homosexual demands that we celebrate his sin.
I think a homosexual can be a Christian, but he must recognize it as sin. He must repent. If he falls into sin, it should break him. He should be crying out to God for help, asking his brothers to join him in prayer, creating accountability relationships, etc.
There can be alcoholic Christians, but they must stop drinking. If the alcoholic goes out for a drink, do we as the body of Christ celebrate, or do we weep?
This is the conclusion that I think was missing from Michael’s otherwise very reasonable post.
JackNathan on 23 Sep 2008 at 11:48 am #
Romans 1 does make it clear just how abominable the sin of homosexuality is. In fact, Paul asserts that unbelievers are given over to that sin as punishment in this lifetime (Romans 1:26ff “For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions…). It in effect compounds their guilt as well as punishes.
But I believe the this lightning rod issue is forcing the Church to really examine its beliefs on the Imputed Righteousness of Christ (infused righteousness is Roman Catholic dogma, not Protestant) and its beliefs on sanctification (assuming those churches believe that homosexuality is a sin).
In this controversy, we as a Church can proclaim God’s grace. Grace that forgives, grace that declares us to be righteous, grace that creates in us a new creature with new desires, grace that sustains us and never forsakes us. Even this abominable sin is capable of being covered by the blood of the Lamb.
But, the issue is that with this sin especially, the Church preaches a legalistic sanctification. Instead of turning from the sin as exhibiting your true faith and the work of God, it is treated like probation by the church. They put recovering homosexuals on probation, waiting for them to have any form of relapse then they throw the book at them. They are treated with such disdain (by the majority that I have seen).
I think that the LGBT community is the modern day analog to the tax-collectors that Jesus sought out (and was thereby ridiculed by the religious).
Simul Iustus et Peccator
Vladimir on 23 Sep 2008 at 12:15 pm #
A certain demarcation that I would like to see employeed and understood is that between a regenerate believer and that of a hypocrite.
A regenerate believer evidences the longings of the Beatitudes in his/her own heart. These are the qualities that the individuals whom the Spirit of God has prepared for reception of the Gospel possess.
3″Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (St Matthew 5:3-10)
On the other hand, a hypocrite goes about justifying his/her conduct contrary to the Gospel ethic.
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? (Lk 10:29 NIV)
He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight. (St Luke 16:15 NIV)
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3And in their greed they will exploit you(G) with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
(2 Peter 2:1-3)
12These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever. (St Jude 12f ESV)
Remember that the lost are not concerned or troubled by spiritual things. The devil does not bother them because he already has them. It is the godly that he assaults - hence our need for God’s armour.
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak. (Ephesians 6:10-20 ESV)
Vladimir
M. Jay Bennett on 23 Sep 2008 at 12:48 pm #
TUAD,
You wrote:
Would you agree that there are many professing Christians who declare that same-sex behavior is NOT a sin?
I would say this is beside the point.
The question is not how many professing Christians declare homosexuality as acceptable behavior? The question is what does God say? God says homosexuality is sin; therefore it cannot be a stated ideal for Christian behavior, and that is the way the question should be framed.
The question “What sin can I do and still be considered Christian?” is founded on licentiousness. In my opinion, Michael should not have framed the question this way.
In turn, we could frame the question as “What must sin must I avoid in order to be Christian?” But that is legalism.
The question can only properly be asked this way: “How can I live my life in a way that honors the person and work of Jesus Christ on my behalf?” Answer, in order to live my life in a way that honors Christ I should be striving with the power God supplies to mortify sin and live unto God, both of which require accepting the moral law of God as one’s stated ideal. In other words, my life should be marked by a deep repentance for any thought, word, or deed that contradicts the law of God, which includes homosexuality.
SteveT on 23 Sep 2008 at 1:55 pm #
I think that is an excellent point, Jay (#54)
C Michael Patton on 23 Sep 2008 at 1:59 pm #
Vlad,
Didn’t Peter justify his prejudice to the Gentiles for 12 years?
Valdimir on 23 Sep 2008 at 2:26 pm #
Only perhaps if one accepts the Hegelian modal as expounded and applied to early Christianity by F.C. Baur.
Actually, I think the historical narrative in Acts speaks against such an understanding, and again, against Baur St Luke is more than an irenic smotther-overer in Acts.
In fact I think that Galatians was written prior to the Jerusalem council and that the conduct of Peter and Barnabas disclosed by St Paul there was a momentary lapse in conduct - not one of belief or doctrine.
But, what is your point and how does it relate to this topic?
Vladimir
Marvin the Martian on 23 Sep 2008 at 2:37 pm #
#56
Didn’t Peter justify his prejudice to the Gentiles for 12 years?
Thank you Michael for injecting a little humilty into the discussion.
M. Jay Bennett on 23 Sep 2008 at 3:45 pm #
Thanks SteveT.
Valdimir on 23 Sep 2008 at 4:26 pm #
I concur with StevenT to post #54 by Jay.
Valdimir
Jason on 23 Sep 2008 at 4:46 pm #
From the beginning God made the man for the woman and the woman for the man. Homosexuality is a violation of the created order.
As you say Michael, we are all born with a predisposition towards sin. I have to say that as a man who finally has a woman in his life that the sexual temptation is strong.
People tempted in the homosexual form suffer doubly because whereas I have the option of marriage and release from at least one form of temptation there is no such option for the homosexual. (well we could argue that they are free to marry a person of the complimentary gender but most wouldn’t and it doesn’t really answer their situation) Having to face temptation daily with no end except death or miraculous deliverance is something we should have compassion for.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 23 Sep 2008 at 5:47 pm #
“The question is not how many professing Christians declare homosexuality as acceptable behavior? The question is what does God say?”
Okay, M. Jay Bennett. Since you don’t see the import of the question, then please disregard the question of whether there are professing Christians declaring that same-sex behavior is NOT a sin.
Rampert on 23 Sep 2008 at 11:47 pm #
I was rather surprised to find this confused bit of reasoning in an otherwise thought provoking site. What was glaringly evident right from the start is the confusion in terminology that is being abused here. My identity as a believer according to the scriptures is ‘SAINT” not sinner - homosexual, adulterer or otherwise. In Christ, this “sinner (myself and all the redeemed community)” hailing from various backgrounds of depravity have been made a “saint” and the ongoing work of sanctification would continue till the day Jesus returns (Phil 1:6). Therefore the very premise Can homosexuals be Christians? Or, better, is there such a thing as a “homosexual Christian.” is improperly worded from the start. It is not Biblical to call me by my previous identity after my redemption. Christendom from the start has been blind to the riches of our inheritance in Christ - so much so Paul makes it a prayer point that believers eyes will be opened to know the riches they have inherited through the Person and work of Christ (Eph 1:18). Therefore the question itself is invalid because it is wrongly phrased. Further if it is taken to its logical conclusions (as another response points out) the question can be asked in a similar vein ” Can there be “Sexual Immoral Christian?” “Idolater Christian?” “Adulterer Christian?” “Male Prostitute Christian?” “Thieving Christian?” “Greedy Christian?” “Drunkard Christians?” “Slanderer Christians?” “Swindler Christians?” Again in Romans Chapter 1, vs 27, 28, Paul tells us God gave them (homosexuals, adulterers, idolaters etc) up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; Therefore to claim that there is such a thing as “Homosexual Christian” or an “Adulterous Christian” would be more appropriate in http://www.reprobatemind.org
However, the valid aspect of the issue that is dealt with in the posting has to do with the pull of sin in the life of a believer - this is a valid issue - but the question should have been “Can a Saint be tempted by homosexuality and the whole sorry list of depraved activity?” To that the answer is yes. What is the difference between the two questions? Is it just a play of words. No. To a believer the whole issue here is regarding “Which drummer are you marching to? Is it to the Spirit or to the Flesh. In Galatians we find
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:13 For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another.
There is a sober note here warning us against laxity in this area Gal 5:21 ……. that they who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
I am not preaching perfectionism or a theology of works here. I am talking about identity as a “royal priesthood and a holy nation” Is our behavior bringing Him glory or are we by our disobedience bringing dishonor as in Rom 2:24 …For “The name of God is blasphemed among the nations because of you,”
Regards
Rampert
Linkathon 9/24 « BrianD blog on 24 Sep 2008 at 12:14 am #
[...] C. Michael Patton on homosexuality. [...]
Vladimir on 24 Sep 2008 at 8:59 am #
Rampert,
You are correct that there may have been some lack of preciseness in expressing ourselves on this issue, but I think it amounts to nothing more than a terminology issue and perhaps one of perspective (however important).
The Bible does not hide the sins of the saints - whether Moses, Samson, Saul, David, Peter, Thomas, Solomon, Mary Magdalene, Mark et al.
In fact the Scriptures highlight in manifold passages the real stark difference in pre- and post conversion.
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 11Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. (1 Peter 2:9-11)
12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, (Ephesians 2:12-14)
7Therefore do not be partners with them.
8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) (Ephesians 5:7-8)
20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— (Colossians 1:20-22)
We are saints - yes, but as you pointed out from Scripture real Christians still struggle with sin on a daily basis.
It is as Luther phrased it simul iustus et peccator (at the same time justified and a sinner).
However, although I don’t think it is necessary to give great details of one’s past/former self, the designate “sinner” is still an appellation that is righteous and true, yet perhaps “forgiven sinner” “washed sinner” or “redeemed sinner” would be more apropos.
Vladimir
C. Barton on 24 Sep 2008 at 11:13 am #
Yes, let us not forget that the world at large doesn’t really know or understand the power of God to change us inside; the world has “celebration of diversity”, and “religious tolerance”, and all kinds of humanistic constructs that belie the emptiness and spiritual hunger which they have, but of which not all are aware. On the other hand, our life and unity are in Christ, not in our political correctness.
We literally have the miracle of new life in each one of us, so let us not be conformed to the world and what they do in their ignorance and spiritual destitution.
The issue of homosexualtiy is elevated and magnified in the world - should it also be in the church? How about the blog about people leaving the church? Is that not a greater issue?
I don’t know, maybe not.
M. Jay Bennett on 24 Sep 2008 at 5:59 pm #
TUaD,
I didn’t say I didn’t understand the import of the question. I said the question is beside the point. In other words, it has no import with respect to my initial comment (#11), the comment to which you responded (#13) by asking me the question.
Rampert on 25 Sep 2008 at 12:56 am #
Friends, I did agree that people of God do face real struggles in this world with sin. But the emphasis that I wanted to bring out is this. In the familiar verses found in 1 John 2:15-17 we find…
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
C S Lewis put it well when he said “There are two kinds of people: those who say to God ‘Thy will be done’ and those to whom God says, ‘All right then, have it your way.’”
Therefore to continually practice a lifestyle that is identified with any particular brand of sin can hardly be classified under “doing the will of God.” Grace should not be treated as license to sin. If we are overcome by sin at any given point of time, the first verse of the same chapter points to Jesus who intercedes to the Father on our behalf. However we cannot continue to live a lifestyle that identified by that particular brand of sin.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 warns us…
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what SOME OF YOU WERE (emphasis mine)
If the salt loses its savor…
Sincerely
Rampert
britphil on 25 Sep 2008 at 5:47 am #
Having spent a short while away from the P&P Blog, I have been perusing the site to see which post I should earmark to herald my return to the P&P blogosphere…the option was between “play safe Phil” or “in at the deep end” and true to form I have chosen the latter.
However, I am not going to posit a theological stance as such (”get off that fence Phil” I hear many of you scream) but rather from a pastoral/personal perspective as I recount the experiences of several close friends/work colleaguesclose family relatives. All these accounts are true and are not hypothetical in any way.
This is Part 1 of my posting. I say that because there have been several separate issues which I have had to face and work out my own personal response.
Firstly , let me tell you about Dave, a very good college friend of mine, of more than 25 years standing. Dave had no formal church upbringing…in fact his childhood was quite traumatic. His Dad was an alcoholic and is still classed as ‘missing presumed dead’ as when Dave was nine, his Dad left the family home one day never to return. Dave and I had countless deep conversations about the Christian faith during our college days but Dave never made a personal committment during our time at college, although I did invite him to one of the Billy Graham Mission England stadium events that took place in the UK in the early 1980s. At no time during our college discussions did we ever talk about the issue of homosexuality.
About a year after we left college, I received a long letter out of the blue from Dave which concluded with the news that after we had left college he had gone to a Christian based weekend at a local holiday camp, committed his life to Christ and joined a local Baptist church in his home town, to which he had returned after college. A short while after I had received the letter I was at a meeting being addressed by the same Christian a singer/evangelist who had been at the weekend where Dave had made his committment. I mentioned Dave’s experience to him and he recalled that he had been in “quite a mess” but quite rightly did not betray any confidences. Several years passed and we lost touch but out of the blue one evening I received a phone call at home and it was Dave. We had always had the type of friendship where we would just pick up where we had left off several years earlier but Dave had some news to tell me and I could sense that he was was feeling uneasy and quite nervous which was unlike him. He then proceeded to tell me that he was in fact gay, and had moved down to Brighton, a town on the South Coast of England and was now living with his male partner. Thankfully, I have always tried to adopt a pastoral approach i which I try to be “unshockable” and it stood me in good stead here. I listened to his story and tried to ask some open questions. It transpired that he had always struggled with his sexual identity and it got to a point where he sought pastoral help from the leaders of his church. They did not want to know and offered no practical/pastoral help whatsoever, What was even more admirable about Dave was that he explained to me that he had looked at the few Scriptures that there are surrounding the issue of homosexuality and had come to the conclusion that he could not remain a practising Christian and live in a same-sex relationship and he was no longer attending church. Some might argue he had never joined the church ..I personally beg to differ.
A few more years passed when, a couple of years ago there was a bout of heavy rain and severe flooding in parts of the UK. One of the worst affected areas was the suburb where Dave had grew up and where his Mum and sister still lived. The damage to the local area was devastating. Then one night on the main national news I saw a lady being interviewed with her daughter. It turned out to be Dave’s sister and his eleven year old niece. The homes of Dave’s Mum and sister had both been virtually destroyed by the flooding and his niece’s school had been seriously affected . The suburb itself was also a relatively poor, urban area. I managed to contact Dave and found out the whole story in that it would be 18 months at least before his Mum and sister would be able to return to their homes and there were many more like them affected in a similar way.
As it was national news headlines, I actually informed my own church of my friend’s family situation and our church congregeation gave a sum of money which was donated to the National Flood appeal which had been set up for people affected in that suburb of the UK. At no time did I tell the congregation that Dave was gay..they never knew. If I had, I am sure the response would have been very interesting….some would have still donated money anyway, some would not have given but would have remained silent, others would have been openly critical of my sking for financial help from church members on behalf of the family of someone who was a practising homosexual.
I am still Dave’s friend and intend to remain so. The thing which probably saddened me most was because of my evangelical convictions (I was the President of the student Christiian Union during my time at college) he did not feel able or comfortable enough to share with me some of the areas that he was really struggling with.
Part 2 will follow shortly.
britphil on 25 Sep 2008 at 5:52 am #
Before I move on to Part 2, for those who may pour scorn over the “genuineness” of Dave’s initial conversion experience ,shortly after his initial committment, the church which Dve had joined financially supported a link missionary family based in Southern India. They had raised some money and Dave personally volunteered to travel half way round the world and give the money to them inperson which he did, although he had never met them previously. Clearly also, the church leadership felt confident enough in Dave to entrust him with the money for the family.
Part 2 will indeed follow shortly.
britphil on 25 Sep 2008 at 7:23 am #
On to part two.
Can I just begin by saying that these situations are in chronological order.
About seven years ago I transferred section within the company for which I work. Please let me introduce you to another Dave. Dave was adopted as a very tiny baby and brought up by two devoted loving Methodist Christian parents. Dave has consequently had a Methodist upbringing and for a number of years was a keen member of his local Mehodist Church Youth set up. Dave was also my own Line Manager.
Dave has a degenerative eye condition which has required him to undergo several operations on his eyes in an attempt to save as much of his vision as possible. Consequently there are several occasions when he is off work for a prolonged period of time whilst he has an operation and then recuperates for a short while. However, during one of his periods of recovery, he requested, through a third person, for people to know that he was gay and that he wanted people to be aware of this. He had clearly struggled for many years with his sexual orientation and had decided that it was time that he let people know that he was gay.
Unlike Dave in part 1, Dave, as far as I am aware is not in a long-term relationship, and I sense may have had a couple of brief casual encounters but I would not class him as ‘promiscuous’ (ie having many encounters with male partners). Shortly after Dave returned from work, for a short while he was very depressed and eventually, one Friday when there were just the two of us in our office, he broke down (without any questioning or prompting from me) and shared how difficult he was finding things and voluntarily opened up about some of the sexual struggles he was fighting. Again the “remain unshockable at all times if possible” approach (which I often find is the way Jesus tended to tackle delicate situations in the Gospels) really helped. What was clear was how lonely Dave was, and how differently he felt people now treated him and how ‘judged’ he felt, although I tried to reassure him that from my perspective this was more his perception than the reality of the situation. He had joined a group of gay people who met in a local pub but had decided to no longer go as he found it to be a very one-issue (ie gay) focused group, whereas he had a number of interests and was hoping to meet people of a similar ilk. As this group had been his main source of support and he was no longer attending it, I was seriously concerned that he may try to harm himself but thankfully Dave began to pull out of the depression over the next week or two.
Dave has not attended church for many years now but has had a strong Christian upbringing.
Part 3 coming up soon.
britphil on 25 Sep 2008 at 8:24 am #
…and now onto part three and to much more recent times. If I am honest this is the one that came closest to home and which has rocked and affected our immediate family in particular.
You will be relieved to hear that is not about !Dave’….Please let me tell you about John. John is my cousin. I come from a fairly large family on my father’s side and have 8 cousins on the paternal side. John is about five years younger than I am and of all my cousins John is the one who I have always related very well to and whenever we have family gatherings we will chat for ages about all kinds of things. We both studied the same degree subject (ie Economics), have have a fairly similar outlook on life, are both fairly relaxed and laid back. John changed career several years ago and has retrained as a barrister. He practises law in a large Northern city in the UK. What I admire most about John, and here is where I may offend some of the legal fraternity who frequest this site, whereas it would have been very easy for John to have made a small fortune from his legal work (let’s face it, the people who often benefit most from eg divorce law are the barristers/solicitors!!) John chose to specialise in Charity Law and also prosecutes large business corporations when they attempt to flagrantly flout the law in search of an easy buck!. I have much admiration for him in many ways. He is also a really nice guy and is very popular right across the family spectrum. There are very few people who have a bad word to say about him (apart from the high flying business people he prosecutes from time to time!!)
The other thing I need to inform you of is John’s upbringing. He was brought up in an extremely stable, loving Christian home. His Dad is a retired engineering university lecturer and his Mum is a retired business studies secondary school teacher. He has a sister who is married with three children. The whole family for many years have been members of a strongly-evangelical Open Brethern assembly with a relatively strict down-the-line style of leadership
Earlier this year John celebrated his 40th birthday and held a party to celebrate in the Northern UK city in which he grew up, although he now lives and works elsewhere. Family members were all invited. Both my brothers live on the South Coast of the UK and were unable to attend. My younger brother e-mailed John to thank him for the invitation and apologise for not being able to attend the party. John sent a typically pleasant and friendly e-mail in reply which sent reverberations around my immediate family. He responded by saying that he was sorry my brother was unable to attend as it would have been great to see him as it had been quite a while since they had last met. Then came the bombshell completely out of the blue..He then went on to say that my brother would also have been able to meet his new partner Dan. Can I just explain that John had not told my parents, my older brother or myself about Dan. On discussing it as a family, we felt that this was John’s way of saying, please let your family know about Dan before the party.
Now then P&P people…here’s a question for you all. What would you have done in this situation? Politely refuse the invitiation, stating a nebulous reason for not going to veil the real reason? State that you would not be coming because you did not wish to validate a same-sex relationship? Or decide to attend the party? My parents, my wife and myself all chose to go to the party. And guess what, it was a really chilled out, fun, relaxing evening where everyone really enjoyed themselves. John and Dan did not flaunt their relationship. In fact, we are quite sure that a number of more distant family members remained unaware of John’s relationship with Dan. There were a number of gay people/couples at the party but again they were not displaying their sexuality for all to see. I personally had not spoken to John before the party, and although he probably guessed that my brother had informed us of the situation he did not know that for sure. I actually decided to try and be as natural as possible. I introduced myself to Dan and asked him what he did for a living! Are you sitting comfortably….you soon won’t be…he told me quite calmly that he was a vicar in a tough,urban inner city parish! Again I tried to remain unshockable as I was convinced he was going to be a fellow legal professional! Whether I managed to pull off”unshockable” on this occasion I’m not sure! I did not get a chance to talk to John personally until the very end of the evening as I said goodbye to him at the door. He looked nervously for a second at me and I looked equaly anxiously back at him. Sadly I could see deep unease and real fear in his eyes …it was as if he was really worried about how I would take the news and fearfult that I would reject him and kiss goodbye to our friendship. Thankfully we gave each other a warm hug and the tension dissipated almost immediately. We gave each other a knowing look and I just said what a great evening it had been and that we would talk at length some other time.
Finally can I just share something about the more recent faith journey of John and his family. As I shared earlier they had been members of the Open Brethren assembly and my uncle had been on the leadership team for many years up to several years ago. Several years ago John’s Mum and Dad came to a family gathering at my parents house. My Aunty had been ill recently with a stress related illness and was clearly not her strong true self (she is fine now!). I got chatting to my Uncle who is a really interesting guy and during the conversation we talked a abit about the issue of homosexuality and the church. On reflection I am convinced that this is the time when John had told the closst memebrs of his immediately family that he was gay, and I feel this may have contributed to my Aunty’s illness at the time.
Over the last three years gradually the whole family have left the Open Brethren assembly. John had left a number of years earlier as he had been living elsewhere in the UK for quite some time. His sister and brother-in-law had, for completely different reasons been struggling with the rather oppressive and restrictive leadershiop regime at the church and had made the very difficult decision to leave the church. They now attend a local, growing evangelical Anglican Church and help lead the worship in a church plant congregation that has been formed recently in a local school. Their three children are all committed Christians and all adore their Uncle John. Very recently, my Aunty and Uncle, John’s parents have left the church and members of the congregation that worships in the Anglican Cathedral in the city where they live. As for John himself, and I know many of you will not like this, but he is a member of a local liberal Anglo-Catholic Anglican church in the city wher