Taking Calvinism Too Far: R.C. Sproul Jr.’s Evil-Creating Deity
In his book Almighty Over All (Baker, 1999), R.C. Sproul Jr. makes some controversial statements—ones that appear to be sub-biblical. What tipped me off to this was hearing a paper presentation at a conference in April in New Orleans. R.C. Sproul Jr. was being quoted, and I shocked at what I heard. Though the paper presentation came from a reliable source (Dr. Ken Keathley of Southeastern Seminary in Wake Forest), I wanted be like the Bereans of Acts 17 and check out Sproul Jr.’s work myself—especially if I wanted to offer some reflections on this topic.
As I assumed, upon further investigation, Keathley’s assessment was correct: Sproul Jr. has simply taken Calvinism way too far. His father R.C. Sproul Sr., also a Calvinist, has been much more tentative and modest about the question of sin’s starting point; he basically concludes that this is a mysterious matter, stopping well short of attributing the origin of evil to God:
Herein lies the problem. Before a person can commit an act of sin he must first have a desire to perform that act. The Bible tells us that evil actions flow from evil desires. But the presence of an evil desire is already sin. We sin because we are sinners. We were born with a sin nature. We are fallen creatures. But Adam and Eve were not created fallen. They had no sin nature. They were good creatures with a free will. Yet they chose to sin. Why? I don’t know. Nor have I found anyone yet who does know (Chosen by God [1986], p. 30).
Sproul Sr. allows for a libertarian understanding of free will in Eden, which itself is a departure from Calvinism proper. But let that pass.
Sproul Jr., however, wants to get to the bottom of the matter and weigh in on what he takes to be the source of evil: God! Shocked? I certainly hope so. Sproul Jr. lists the range of possible “suspects” in his third chapter, entitled “Who Dunit?” He lays out and discusses the only five possible alternatives: Adam, Eve, Satan, the environment, and God. God created a good environment (“it was very good”), and Adam, Eve, and Satan were originally created good; so their strongest desire or inclination (which dictates how we will choose, Sproul Jr. claims) must also have been originally good. This, then, means that none of the first four candidates can be the source of sin. The “culprit” (Sproul Jr.’s term) is God himself, who “introduced evil into this world” (p. 51). In fact, God acted according his strongest inclination; he acted on what he most wished to come to pass—as he always does (p. 54).
The reason he wanted Adam and Eve to fall into sin was because of God’s eternal attribute of wrath—and “God is as delighted with his wrath as he is with all of his attributes” (52). So in light of this eternal attribute of wrath, God must create objects of wrath: “What I’ll do is create something worthy of my wrath, something on which I can exhibit the glory of my wrath” (pp. 52-53). Without creating human beings (and let’s include fallen angelic beings here too), he would not have had the opportunity to display his glory in this way. So Sproul Jr. affirms something rather startling: “It was [God’s] desire to make his wrath known. He needed, then, something on which to be wrathful. He needed to have sinful creatures” (p. 57).
Anticipating a rejoinder, Sproul Jr. asks: “Isn’t it impossible for God to do evil?” He acknowledges that God can’t sin. This isn’t much of a consolation, as Sproul Jr. goes on to say: “I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that he created sin” (p. 54). Sproul Jr. doesn’t think he’s crossed any line by saying this. Referring to the Westminster Confession’s definition of sin as “any lack of conformity to or transgression of the law of God,” he says that this doesn’t exclude God’s creating evil. It seems that Sproul Jr. is not only using an argument from silence from the Confession, but he is ignoring an important emphasis in Scripture—that God cannot be the author of evil. Let me go into a bit more detail about some problem areas in Sproul Jr.’s theology.
1. “God can do what he wants.” Sproul Jr. appeals to Romans 9 to justify his point (pp. 53, 56). If God is accused of doing evil, Sproul Jr. gives a rough equivalent of what Paul is saying: “Shut up! He’s God, and he can do what he wants” (p. 56). Yes, God can do what he wants, but what God does (and what he wants) will be good and just and reflecting his love and his holiness. We can’t rightly say, “God can break his promise or lie because ‘he’s God, and he can do what he wants.” No, what sets God apart from us fallen, rationalizing, faithless humans is that he alone is true (Romans 3:4). We’re told that it is “impossible for God to lie” (Heb. 6:18; cp. Titus 1:2).
James 1 doesn’t only tell us that God can’t do evil; it also tells us that every good and perfect gift comes from above; that is, God shouldn’t be accused as being the source of evil. God is intrinsically good and so cannot “create evil.” This harks back to what Jesus says about the nature of God—in contrast to fallen humans, who still seek the good of their children: “Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!” (Matthew 7:9-11). In fact, earlier on, God is said to be one who doesn’t simply love those who love him, but he loves the wicked and unrighteous as well, thus showing a perfect love (Mt. 5:48).
2. The Manichean error: Sproul Jr., it seems, has pushed things over the orthodox edge by saying that God is the author or creator of evil. This stands in violation of what 1 Timothy 4:4 tells us: “For everything God created is good.” Of course, Augustine fought against the Manichean heresy, which takes evil as a thing rather than the absence or corruption of goodness, but Sproul Jr. seems to be slipping into some version of Manicheanism.
One side note here: The King James Version can be misleading on this point. The translation sometimes gives the impression that God is the maker or the source of both good and evil: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7); “Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?” (Lamentations 3:37-38); “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?” (Amos 3:6). This rendering is inaccurate. The word for “evil” (ra’ah) can also be translated “trouble,” “disaster,” or “calamity.”
3. A God in need isn’t a God indeed: It is quite startling to read a staunch Calvinist who says that God needs something outside himself—in this case, sinners on whom to pour his wrath! The Scriptures are full of reminders of God’s self-sufficiency and that he needs nothing outside himself. For instance, “If I were hungry I would not tell you, For the world is Mine, and all it contains” (Psalm 50:12). Again, “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become his adviser? Or who has given him something only to have him pay it back? For all things are from him, by him, and for him. Glory belongs to him forever! Amen” (Rom. 11:34-36).
Orthodox Christianity affirms that God did not need to create. He could have chosen not to create. The doctrine of creation out of nothing affirms that God is not in need of, say, pre-existing matter or of human beings. The triune God is content and joyful within himself. His creation of human beings is the result of God’s gracious choice to extend to others his joy, his love, and his community. Sproul Jr.’s view of God’s needing to create human beings diminishes rather than exalts God. According to Sproul Jr., God couldn’t help but create humans upon whom to pour his wrath. (Keep in mind Sproul Jr.’s insistence that God always acts according to his strongest desire.) If wrath is an attribute that is an eternal and necessary aspect to God, then this means God necessarily had to create; he couldn’t help but create. All of this sounds quite troubling to my mind.
In an attempt at philosophical consistency, Sproul Jr., it seems, has taken his causal determinism to some problematic theological conclusions—a direction his father, apparently, feared to go.
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C Michael Patton on 02 Sep 2008 at 11:00 pm #
Paul, great post. As a Calvinist, I am truly sorry to hear that Sproul Jr. has taken such a radical and, what I believe to be, unbiblical position.
You have done a good job here of showing the errors in such a short space. Thanks for taking the time.
Wonders for Oyarsa on 03 Sep 2008 at 12:17 am #
Very troubling stuff. I’m encouraged by this post.
I do wonder, Paul or Michael, if you would be interested in engaging David Hart’s The Doors of the Sea. It is by far the best thing I’ve read on the problem of evil. He does fire quite a few shots at the sort of view Sproul is employing here. I’m not a Calvinist myself, so I wonder if Hart’s theology is something that can be affirmed from a Calvinist perspective or not.
Peter on 03 Sep 2008 at 1:36 am #
As an ex-Calvinist, I think RCj is stating plainly what all Calvinists imply and hint at, but are rarely willing to be so plain about. If there’s no libertarian free will, and everything is deterministic, and by God’s sovereign will, then clearly God did do it. It’s an inevitable result of Calvinist thought.
Historical Orthodox thought has focused on the picture of God painted by Jesus. The father who welcomes back the prodigal son, running to him even while distant.
Now as an Orthodox Christian, I look back at the Calvinist years a bit like Luther looked back at his Roman years. I secretly hated God, or was at least ambivilent to this abstract entity who needed wrath.
Listen to the Pilgrims podcast for discussion:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/pilgrims
bethyada on 03 Sep 2008 at 2:14 am #
I am not so certain Sproul Jr’s ideas are atypical. I wrote a response to the idea the God creates evil recently. Granted my take is an non-Calvinist one: Does God create evil?
I agree that evil should not be seen as an attribute of itself (whether or God or anyone), rather it is a distortion of good.
I am not so certain about wrath being an attribute in and of itself either. It is more an outworking of justice when goodness is broken. God can be just (fair) without evil existing. And if it does come into existence then the reaction of justice against the distortion of good is what wrath is.
As important as logic is, it is subservient to scripture. Not because it lacks in and of itself, rather because we are fallen and therefore our logic is broken. Sproul’s logic has taken him away from Scripture which should be the pointer to go back the Bible and start again.
A further question emerges from this post.
God cannot do evil but could Jesus the man potentially do so? If not, what do the temptations mean?
Charles Page on 03 Sep 2008 at 6:26 am #
I would like to hear what Sr. says about Jr.
When The Doctrinal Pendulum Swings Too Far « Thinking Out Loud on 03 Sep 2008 at 8:15 am #
[...] “Sin” originate with God? According to a post yesterday on Reclaiming The Mind, R. C. Sproul, Jr. may be taking a position that evil originates with God. Hmmmm. [...]
David Di Giacomo on 03 Sep 2008 at 8:16 am #
I have to echo what others have written above: this is not “taking Calvinism too far”, it is merely being consistently calvinist.
johnMark on 03 Sep 2008 at 8:58 am #
What do you think about John Frame’s answer to the question?
Quoting from here.
Yes, well, I discuss a number of these terms at some length in Doctrine of God. Certainly God “permits” evil, and I think it’s legitimate to use that language. People sometimes think that we should say God “permits” evil, but doesn’t bring it about. They think that would alleviate the problem of evil.
The question, though, is whether God merely permits evil, or whether in addition he actually brings evil about in some sense. I think the latter is true. Scripture often says that God brings about sinful decisions of human beings (see above under Question 4). This is a hard teaching, and on one level it makes the problem of evil more difficult. But in another sense, this teaching is reassuring. If evil comes from some source other than God, that would be pretty scary. It would imply that there are forces of evil that are capable of resisting, even overcoming God’s desires. But if evil comes from God, we know that he has a good purpose in bringing it about (Rom. 8:28).
I avoid saying that God “authors” evil, an unclear expression which seems to suggest that God (like the author of a book) not only brings evil about, but approves of it. “Creates” is awkward: evil is a quality, not a thing, and God creates things, not qualities. “Wills” is ambiguous, since it can mean that he approves it or simply that he brings it about. “Incites” suggests that God encourages people to do evil things; Scripture says he does not do this. “Stands behind” can also suggest this. The other terms listed above differ mainly in their connotations. I think any of them are legitimate, depending on the context. I have used all of them, but I tend to prefer plain-English phrases like “brings about” and “makes happen.”
Thanks,
Mark
ChadS on 03 Sep 2008 at 9:12 am #
Michael calling Sproul’s version of God’s nature “unbiblical” is exceedingly kind. It would seem to me to be more properly termed heresy.
If God created evil and evil is just one part of God’s nature then what standard would we have to make judgments or moral decisions if every behavior is part of our God-given make up? How can evil be part of God’s nature, when we believe God to be just, how can evil be just? Can God contain contradictory principles or can he do things that offend his other characteristics? Or perhaps if evil is part of God’s nature as Sproul contends then God is not just.
ChadS
Wonders for Oyarsa on 03 Sep 2008 at 9:17 am #
I have to echo what others have written above: this is not “taking Calvinism too far”, it is merely being consistently calvinist.
If by “consistant” you mean maintaining no mystery between divine sovereignty and human freedom, then I agree.
But what about what the Westminster Confession says?
God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
This is clearly the writing of people who understand that there are certain places theology should not go, and this is put up as poles of a mystery - that whatever we say about God, we must say that he is sovereign and yet also that he is not the author of evil, and that there is genuine creaturely freedom. Call it inconsistent as you like, but I daresay there is more healthy Christian mystery in the confession than in this pop-Calvinism.
Cadis on 03 Sep 2008 at 9:22 am #
“The reason he wanted Adam and Eve to fall into sin was because of God’s eternal attribute of wrath—and “God is as delighted with his wrath as he is with all of his attributes”
I bet Sproul Jr. would have a fit if you suggested God created man to have some one to love and to be loved, yet ,as you point out, speaks of God as creating evil to fufill some twisted “need” to be able to vent upon evil and sin. Wow! He must be very close to God, that God should reveal this side of himself to Sproul jr. God must have reaveled it to him because I cannot imagine from where else he could muster the nerve to say it.
Yet I know many will applaud him and that scares me.
David Di Giacomo, where do you say evil comes from?
Rutledge Kuhn on 03 Sep 2008 at 9:23 am #
Satan tempted Adam and Eve toward rebellion. The question would go back to what caused Satan to rebel.
How about we just say that there isn’t enough information to form a dogmatic conclusion as to why.
From the biblical text we just know what happened, and answering the question of “why?” just leads to confusion, or arguments.
Vance on 03 Sep 2008 at 12:01 pm #
First switching back to young earth creationism and now this position that even makes an Arminian (or at least psuedo-arminian) like me a bit squeamish. My impression is that Sproul is becoming very subjective and basing his views on what he, personally, can imagine or accept or “deal with” internally, rather than accepting the mystery of some of these issues. I could be wrong, of course.
M. Jay Bennett on 03 Sep 2008 at 12:09 pm #
Paul,
You wrote of Sproul, Sr.:
Sproul Sr. allows for a libertarian understanding of free will in Eden, which itself is a departure from Calvinism proper.
Are you deducing this from the quote above or from some other writing? The quote itself doesn’t actually say or necessarily mean this.
Also, I think Sproul, Jr. is getting a bad rap here. Everything you write opposing his position is based on this rather ambiguous statement:
he is ignoring an important emphasis in Scripture—that God cannot be the author of evil.
This idea of “authoring” evil is often cast forth in these sort of discussions but rarely defined with precision. I’m reminded of something Jonathan Edwards wrote in his treatise on free will:
“If by the author of sin, be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing; so it would be a reproach and blasphemy to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin; rejecting such an imputation on the Most High, as what is infinitely to be abhorred; and deny any such thing to be the consequence of what I have laid down. But if, by the author of sin, is meant the permitter, or not a hinderer of sin, and, at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy, and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted, or not hindered, will most certainly and infallibly follow;—I say, if this be all that is meant by being the author of sin, I do not deny that God is the author of sin, (though I dislike and reject the phrase, as that which by use and custom is apt to carry another sense), it is no reproach for the Most High to be thus the author of
sin. This is not to be the actor of sin, but on the contrary, of holiness. What God doth herein is holy, and a glorious exercise of the infinite excellency of his nature” (Yale Edition, 287-88).
I wonder if Sproul, Jr. is understanding the concept of “authoring” evil in this way?
ChadS on 03 Sep 2008 at 12:40 pm #
Jay,
I think Paul’s argument is based upon much more than the one statement from Sproul that you quoted. Paul’s assessment of Sproul’s argument seems to be pretty fair and not really a misrepresentation.
If his whole blog was based on one line from one book then I’d agree, but this case seems pretty clear to me.
ChadS
Carrie on 03 Sep 2008 at 12:46 pm #
Hi Paul,
This is disturbing but sadly not really novel in the world of Calvinism (or well hyper-Calvinism). You can find these concepts peppered throughout Reformed thinking for centuries. It is grossly blasphemous. Thankfully it doesn’t represent a majority view within our (Calvinists) camp.
Let’s hope that Sproul, Jr. comes to his senses on this.
Blessings
Carrie
M. Jay Bennett on 03 Sep 2008 at 1:04 pm #
Hi Chad,
Take another look. That wasn’t a quote from Sproul. It was Chopan’s own words, a summary statement of why he disagrees with Sproul’s position.
Wm Tanksley on 03 Sep 2008 at 3:40 pm #
Disclaimer: I like Sproul Jr.’s take on this point. This message is therefore an attempt at a defense.
As to the question of whether God would be evil if the evil in the world were attributed to Him: let me pull out a metaphor.
Did Shakespeare author the murders in his plays? Is Shakespeare guilty for them? Could his characters be portrayed as justly or properly accusing him of those murders, or of any guilt for the murders?
I claim that even within the framework of the story, even if Shakespeare were to grant a character knowledge about him, that character could not justly accuse S of guilt in the murder. On the contrary, the murder is a necessary part of the story, and although the murder is clearly evil (something S always shows) S’s use of it in the story is clearly good.
If all the world’s a story, and God is the author of it, then even if God _did_ knowingly and deliberately script the evil, that doesn’t make him evil — the question is, what type of story is it, a good one or a bad one? A bad story — if God scripted it — would make God evil. A good one shows His goodness, even if the story has evil (and what story doesn’t?).
Also, separate issue:
“It is quite startling to read a staunch Calvinist who says that God needs something outside himself—in this case, sinners on whom to pour his wrath!”
That’s not what RCJr said. He said that God made objects of wrath for the explicit purpose of displaying his wrath, which is His own purpose. And this is PRECISELY what Paul says in Rom 9:22-23. This doesn’t imply that God NEEDED to do any of this; it simply says that God _did_ it.
So don’t complain to RCJr there — complain to Paul.
M. Jay Bennett on 03 Sep 2008 at 4:57 pm #
Carrie,
If Sproul, Jr. is understanding that God authors evil in the way Jonathan Edwards did (as quoted in my first comment above), then any charge of hyper-Calvinism, due to this one issue, is clearly out-of-bounds.
bethyada on 03 Sep 2008 at 6:46 pm #
Vance First switching back to young earth creationism and now this position that even makes an Arminian (or at least psuedo-arminian) like me a bit squeamish. My impression is that Sproul is becoming very subjective and basing his views on what he, personally, can imagine or accept or “deal with” internally, rather than accepting the mystery of some of these issues. I could be wrong, of course.
I understand that Sproul senior switched to (not back to) creationism.
Sproul junior is the man proposing God creates evil.
2 different people talking about different issues. I would surely hate to be judged on the theological concepts of my relatives.
Vance on 03 Sep 2008 at 7:02 pm #
Whoa! I had no idea there were two of them out there! :0)
Sorry about that!
Wonders for Oyarsa on 03 Sep 2008 at 7:25 pm #
If you don’t want your views to be confused with that of your son’s, you shouldn’t name him your full name.
Terry LaCroix on 03 Sep 2008 at 7:26 pm #
I’m not in any way surprised by this. Sproul The Junior has for years been taking various doctrines to absurd extremes. He is by nature an extremist, and he likes it so.
It astounds me that there are still some who, to this very day, will ardently defend and excuse Sproul The Junior about the abuses over which he was defrocked and declared “unfit for the ministry.”
Having been defrocked, how can he consider himself worthy of any respect to continue expounding the Holy Word of God? Even more significant, why does anyone even bother to listen to what he has to say? Is it only because his last name is Sproul? I suspect so. If his name were John Smith he would have been disregarded and forgotten long ago.
While I do respect many of the opinions of Sproul The Senior, I have no respect at all for his son. The one has often demonstrated wisdom, and the other folly. Apparently the apple fell quite far from the tree.
Where Did Sin Come From « Third Watch on 04 Sep 2008 at 11:09 am #
[...] Paul Copan at Parchment and Pen has a review of the extreme Calvinism RC Sproul, Jr. You can check it out by clicking here. The major problem that Copan has with Sproul’s assertions is Sproul’s position that [...]
Aaron C. Rathburn on 04 Sep 2008 at 3:38 pm #
Wow, this thread is one interesting conversation. Arminians assuming that this is “typical” Calvinism, Calvinists assuming this is wholly “unbiblical,” etc.
Even though I don’t necessarily advocate this position, it is nothing new, and it is centuries old back to the Reformation.
A big debate within Calvinism is “Infralapsarianism” and “Supralapsarianism.” These terms are from the Latin, “Infra” meaning “below, after” and “supra” meaning “above, before.” “Laps” refers to “Fall.” So, the terms mean, “before-Fall,” and “after-Fall.”
The question is, at what stage did God plan election of believers? (Not when did he *carry it out,* which Ephesians makes clear was before the foundations of the world; rather, what was the order of decree). If God decided the process of election *after* the Fall (infralapsarianism), then sin is man’s doing, and men going to Hell is their own doing.
If God decided the process of election *before* the Fall (supralapsarianism), then sin is God’s doing (in order to bring about redemption), and men going to Hell is God’s reprobation of certain people to Hell (Rom 9).
It is a historic belief, just a very debated one.
-ACR
Jonathan on 04 Sep 2008 at 4:16 pm #
Sproul Jr says that God doesn’t sin but creates sin. What does sin look like in its created form?
minnowspeaks on 05 Sep 2008 at 3:50 am #
So how did evil come to be if it was not created?
Cal on 05 Sep 2008 at 9:05 am #
R.C. Sproul, Jr. defrocked? I’ll drink to that!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBE8y7hw9Po
Jonathan on 05 Sep 2008 at 10:04 am #
Evil is a privation of the good. It isn’t some *thing* that comes to exist. Aquinas has a lot of fine things to say about this in his Summa.
Wonders for Oyarsa on 05 Sep 2008 at 9:20 pm #
Cal, as someone who could scarcely disagree more strongly with Sproul Jr.’s views outlined above, which I’m about ready to call a more dangerous heresy than even the early Christological ones, I think the video you linked to here is absolutely shameful. Christians of all people should avoid damaging slander and parading the faults of others for all to see. Shame on you, sir, for contributing to it.
Wm Tanksley on 06 Sep 2008 at 9:58 am #
“I’m about ready to call a more dangerous heresy than even the early Christological ones”
Help me, please — see my post for why I don’t understand that. This “heresy” — if such it is — has been widely accepted as normal variation (aside, of course, from Trent). And “dangerous”? How is it dangerous?
One problem with identifying this as being on a level with the Christological heresies is that it affects only the ‘How’ of creation, not the ‘Who’.
Evan Littlefield on 06 Sep 2008 at 10:13 am #
Thank you Cal for linking to that video. I don’t agree with Wonders that your linking to the video is “shameful.” If anything is shameful it would have to be the conduct in the video itself. If there is cause for shame it would need to be Sproul who should be ashamed.
There have been many allegations of alcohol abuses at RC Sproul Jr’s Highlands Study Center / Saint Peter Presbyterian Church. Defenders have claimed that it’s just a matter of Christian liberty and that any drinking there is always done in moderation. Yet what defines with moderation? Is Sproul entitled to manufacture his own novel definitions and foist them off on us without an argument?
Some have alleged that Sproul has a very twisted understanding of “moderation”, as he has a warped understanding of many other issues, as well. As someone already noted here, Sproul Jr is an extremist and he enjoys being an extremist. Is it logical that an extremist would be skilled in demonstrating moderation in much of anything?
Wonders for Oyarsa on 06 Sep 2008 at 12:57 pm #
Hello Mr. Tanksley,
Obviously you will disagree with me on this - and I’m sorry for having to use such a harsh word for what you consider adiaphora. But there are a lot of implications here that I see as every bit as serious as the Arian heresy - if not more so.
The Christological heresies were serious because they involved the nature of God himself in Christ. This is as serious because we are dealing with the nature of God again - this time in relation to evil. Evil is being called a kind of good, and attributing it to God. Nothing less than the goodness of God himself is at stake here. And a vision of God is being proposed - where for the sake of his eternal attribute of wrath he specifically creates conscious creatures to be tortured - that is indistinguishable from the cruelest of the pagan gods of antiquity. What is being challenged is the orthodox Christian picture of “a good God, who loves mankind” who “hates nothing that he has made”.
This is a big deal.
Wonders for Oyarsa on 06 Sep 2008 at 1:01 pm #
Evan,
The conduct may be shameful. But it is unfaithful to our Lord to delight in parading the shames of others for all to see. The commandment is to love one another - even one’s enemies - even the enemies of the gospel. Never forget that in what you do to the least of these, you do to your Lord - you are mocking Christ, and delighting in it. For the sake of your own soul, repent.
Evan Littlefield on 06 Sep 2008 at 1:41 pm #
“you are mocking Christ, and delighting in it.”
An absolutely outrageous allegation! Funny how Sproul has been accused of being an extremist, and then you pop in to make such an extremist allegation yourself.
1. I take no “delight” in anything I stated. Rather, I grieve over the atrocious example that Sproul sets for his flock. You, apparently, disagree that his atrocious example should be publicly exposed, and you’re entitled to your opinion, as am I entitled to mine. I am not judging your motives or pretending that I can determine the motives of your heart. Why would you presume to do so with me?
2. You are WAY out of line to accuse me of “mocking Christ.” I didn’t even “mock” RC Sproul Jr, let alone my Lord and Savior! Do you dare to call me a blasphemer? An apology for this outrage is in order.
Jonathan on 06 Sep 2008 at 1:42 pm #
Cal, while your, “I’ll drink to that!” comment was temptingly funny, it shouldn’t trump our desire to reach those who may be hurting. I’m sure you didn’t intend to smash Sproul when down. Perhaps, we should all be careful. Take care.
Good post, Paul!
Wonders for Oyarsa on 06 Sep 2008 at 2:45 pm #
Evan,
Insofar as you insist you are not mocking Sproul, or delighting in a scandal of one whom that even I agree seems to be teaching some toxic stuff, I apologize. But Cal’s comment was indeed poking fun at scandal (and the comments on the youtube were atrocious, as was the inline commentary in the movie), and this sort of thing in Christ we should have no tolerance for. I backpeddle not an inch that every careless word we will answer for, and every slight cruelty or smug satisfaction at others failure will be shown as done to none other but the Lord himself. It is him that we mock. It is him that we deride among the tax collectors and sinners. It is him to whom we say “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
The culture we live in is one of voyeurism and sensationalism - of people lapping up scandal like water. It should not be so with us - we should love our neighbors (even our enemies) as ourselves.
Evan Littlefield on 06 Sep 2008 at 5:38 pm #
Wonder, I find Jonathan’s admonishment, “Perhaps, we should all be careful” to be far more measured and gracious than your own.
Quite frankly, I find the manner of your comments against Cal for his link to the You Tube video to conflict directly with what you have expressed on Sproul’s teaching: “dangerous heresy”, “teaching some toxic stuff”, etc. Is that “loving your neighbor”? And yet you say, “every careless word we will answer for.” I think your words here, in every respect, and regardless of who they have been directed at, have been far from carefully measured.
BTW, I happen to agree with you about the dangers of what Sproul teaches. I just don’t think it wise to put it in such “harsh” terms (your own word for it). And then for you to come down so hard on me and Cal?
Please try and show a little more consistency by practicing what you preach. In so doing you might find your opinions to be more warmly received.
Jason on 06 Sep 2008 at 7:39 pm #
In my view God does not normally act to cause any person to make a decision. He can, but in His graciousness He generally allows us to make our decisions for good or ill.
From that perspective God cannot be the author of evil. He can permit us to make the decisions that lead to evil, but that is not the same thing as causing it Himself.
If “good” is the position of being in accord with His will, His commands provide us with the framework to make good decisions. Necessarily of course, if He commands it it becomes good. Israel’s war of annihilation against Amalek is an example. Under normal circumstances “annihilation = bad” but under these particular circumstances God had decreed judgment on Amalek and “annihilation = good”.
Vance, get off your anti-YEC hobbyhorse. YEC is the traditional position of the Church from antiquity and anyone as obsessed with “inerrancy” as you claim to be should accept it.
As I may have said before. “Theological liberals have no problem believing that Genesis describes creation over a period of six days a few thousand years ago. They just don’t believe it. Theological conservatives on the other hand will insist that they believe everything written in Genesis, except the plain reading of it.”
Wonders for Oyarsa on 06 Sep 2008 at 7:54 pm #
I find the manner of your comments against Cal for his link to the You Tube video to conflict directly with what you have expressed on Sproul’s teaching: “dangerous heresy”, “teaching some toxic stuff”, etc. Is that “loving your neighbor”?
I’m attacking the teaching, and not the man. I do not need to love the heresy as myself, just the man.
But I do not withdraw even slightly my vehemence against congregating around scandal involving an opponent. It’s deeply sinful, and a cancer to the soul.
Wm Tanksley on 06 Sep 2008 at 8:10 pm #
There’s a couple of major holes in this argument.
First, your claims are one-sided; the other side does NOT claim to be denying the goodness of God, or anything of the sort. The Arians, in contrast, explicitly denied the eternality of the Son. Thus, you have to actually prove your point, not merely state it: do these doctrines require the denial of the goodness of God, or does RC actually deny that goodness?
Next, you’re singling out an issue which isn’t in any way decided; there’s a lot of variation in this that’s been (aside from Trent) allowed throughout the Church, and held by some of its great leaders.
That’s a horrible slander, and you know it. RC doesn’t claim anything about Hell that you don’t; he doesn’t claim anything about suffering or evil that you don’t. Your use of the word “torture” implies that RC’s God is about to do something that the God of historic Christianity isn’t. And that’s nonsense.
So here’s another rephrasing of your quote: “for the sake of [X] he specifically creates conscious creatures although He knows they will suffer.” I think all Christians at all times would have to agree with this; some would say that we cannot know X, others would assign some ultimate reason. RC says that the ultimate reason is God’s glory; some say the ultimate reason is man’s free will.
Both sides hold that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good. Both sides MUST agree that there is actually evil in the world (the Bible says so!). Neither side holds that there’s more or less actual evil than the other, and both sides agree that God could, if he wanted, make its existence utterly impossible, and by the same token could have created (or not created) in such a way that the evil was not possible.
The clear fact that both sides agree on is that there IS evil and suffering. If one side is to be blamed for a dark god and sacrificial altar, I don’t see how the other side can escape the same blame.
The only difference between the sides is in explaining the exact purpose of the evil. Perhaps it was to allow full free will; perhaps it was to allow God to tell a glorious story that emphasizes His glory. (one with dragons, knights, danger, and eucatastrophe). Perhaps there was some other reason.
What part of the Bible — or creeds — are you quoting from? I don’t recognize either quotation. Did God not make Esau?
Dick on 06 Sep 2008 at 8:59 pm #
Has anyone heard the sermon by John Piper on Ruth(Desiring God Blog) as delivered in the U.K.? He says,in planning for certain events “God ordains sin to pass.” Is this different from Sproul Jr.?
Wonders for Oyarsa on 06 Sep 2008 at 9:53 pm #
The only difference between the sides is in explaining the exact purpose of the evil.
No, the difference is one side IS claiming to attribute evil to God. The other side does not claim that God ordains evil for a purpose, for the other side does not claim that God ordains evil.
Anyway, this is certainly a tired debate, but I’m glad to hear that some Calvinists condemn this stuff.
Cadis on 06 Sep 2008 at 11:11 pm #
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Paul is pretty harsh against those who slandered him. I wonder what he would say to those who slander God in the same way?
Jason on 07 Sep 2008 at 12:11 am #
I don’t agree that God could make evil impossible. I’d take the position that if God is to make a universe in which every moral creature is to have free will then there must be a possibility of some of those free moral agents choosing to do evil.
If there is not at least that possibility then their choices are not free.
Wm Tanksley on 07 Sep 2008 at 1:33 am #
“I don’t agree that God could make evil impossible.”
Of course He could — he doesn’t have to create at all. He could have created automatons, or He could have set the guidelines (somehow) such that they couldn’t be transgressed.
Of course, such a world would be less glorious to God than this one is. THEREFORE, He created this one, with evil in it, for His own glory.
Think about it. Before time He foreknew His church. That means he foreknew their salvation. That means He foreknew their sin, and the Fall. He created _knowing_ that all those things would happen (indeed, I’d say that He created in such a way as to decree those things).
The great plan of salvation includes redemption AND the Fall.
“…there must be a possibility of some of those free moral agents choosing to do evil. If there is not at least that possibility then their choices are not free.”
Is God not free, then? There’s no possibility of Him choosing evil…
No, that’s not a useful definition of freedom, since it excludes God. It would also seem to exclude us once we’re in heaven.
Wm Tanksley on 07 Sep 2008 at 1:36 am #
“Paul is pretty harsh against those who slandered him. I wonder what he would say to those who slander God in the same way?”
Look at those verses — the slander is people claiming that Paul taught that everyone should sin so that grace would abound. This is not even tangentially related to our discussion. Yes, Paul considered THAT slander; this doesn’t mean that you can call RC’s claim also slander, since the two are different.
Wm Tanksley on 07 Sep 2008 at 2:07 am #
“No, the difference is one side IS claiming to attribute evil to God. The other side does not claim that God ordains evil for a purpose, for the other side does not claim that God ordains evil.”
Be very careful there. No, it’s not true that any Calvinist claims that God is evil or performs evil. However, He authored the entire universe, and it all fulfills His plan, including when that fulfillment causes us suffering; and even including when the heart of the king is turned to do evil. God wrote that story. It’s not evil for Him to have done that, because He wrote a good story; it’s about Goodness and Righteousness, not about the evil that they overcome.
Remember, the last enemy to be defeated will be death. Death is evil and an enemy. Yet God planned that defeat, and planned it to be _last_.
Again, God created the universe and made it to have evil in it. You can’t deny that. He Himself claims to control that evil — He took credit for Pharaoh, and claims to hold the heart of the king in His hands. He takes credit for natural disasters (the “I create woe” claim the original post looked at), and every tiny little detail (down to the fall of a sparrow) is part of His plan. Several times He claims to be actively restraining lawlessness, and other times He judges by giving people over to their sinfulness. Even if you manage to argue that there’s some evil that God doesn’t totally control (why would you want evil to triumph over God????), you’re left admitting that at least SOME evil is unmistakably allowed by God, even though He didn’t need to.
And then you have Romans 9. There it looks like God’s wrath is one of His motivations for His patience. There it looks like God prepared some objects specifically for destruction, with the initial purpose of showing His wrath. Pharaoh is again singled out, with detail that makes it very hard to deny that God controlled that entire situation, including the evil that happened — and still blames Pharaoh.
I don’t want to make too strong of a claim. I’m not arguing _against_ libertarian free will — I just think you’re taking it too far to claim that because this view doesn’t fit into libertarian free will, therefore it can’t be orthodox. LFW fits within orthodoxy, but it doesn’t define orthodoxy.
Wm Tanksley on 07 Sep 2008 at 10:23 am #
That’s certainly true; if God or chance altered our decisions from what we truly desired they wouldn’t truly be ours. (This gets a little philosphical rather than Biblical, but so be it.)
I have to affirm that, of course — in the sense that God does not author (i.e. commit) evil. But even if we suppose that the only way for God to plan for an evil thing to happen would be for God to force someone’s decision, your argument only suggests that God doesn’t normally do that. It doesn’t show that He never does, and in fact the Bible shows that He sometimes has done EXACTLY this. Consider, for example, Pharaoh, as described in Romans 9 and many other verses — not only did God harden his heart after he’d decided, God even says that He raised him up _for_ that purpose.
So at least once, God did the thing that you claim he can’t do. Therefore, what you describe is not the correct understanding of authoring evil, since God doesn’t do that. God CAN cause someone to decide to commit evil, without himself incurring guilt.
-Wm
Cadis on 07 Sep 2008 at 11:51 am #
Wm Tanksley,
Do you agree with this statement from Sproul Jr.?
“What I’ll do is create something worthy of my wrath, something on which I can exhibit the glory of my wrath” (pp. 52-53).
Do you agree would you say this?
“It was [God’s] desire to make his wrath known. He needed, then, something on which to be wrathful. He needed to have sinful creatures” (p. 57).
Robert Booth on 07 Sep 2008 at 1:12 pm #
Paul Copan, remarked considerably about Sproul Jr.
But then Paul, you never shown any evidence that God did not create evil. Just openly mocked S’Jr.
So whats your answer Paul, and back it with Scripture, Did God create evil?
Please do not insult my intelligence by chasing a rabbit and going all around the world to say no or yes.
I believe that Scriptures are clear that when they state God created all things, that this infact does include evil. If God did not then show clear evidence of its origin, Please…..
Wm Tanksley on 07 Sep 2008 at 5:32 pm #
I’ve already said that I find them to be reconcilable with Romans 9, and I can’t disagree with that. Can you explain how they differ from Romans 9?
You may philosophically find it unpleasant to think of God as allowing evil; but if the Bible says He does, you can’t fight that with philosophy, and you certainly can’t brand someone a heretic because they oppose your philosophy.
Wm Tanksley on 07 Sep 2008 at 5:58 pm #
Now, a distinct issue: I finally thought of an explanation for something that’s been bugging me: why it’s important to say that God is not the author of evil. The important thing is that no person ever look back on an evil deed they did and say, “well, God authorized that.” No, He did not. He forbade it.
His plan for the world includes the existence of evil (we must all agree), but the purpose of evil in His plan is NOT so that people would do it; the purpose of evil in His plan is to be conquered by God, Christ, and His Body. Anyone committing evil is violating God’s purpose.
Cadis on 07 Sep 2008 at 6:15 pm #
Wm Tanskley,
I have no intention of philosphying. I have no intention of going out side of what scripture tells us
Sproul Jr. is saying man was created to be sinners, I find no where in scripture including Romans Chapter 9 that man was CREATED TO sin…you cannot even say it yourself…
“You may philosophically find it unpleasant to think of God as allowing evil;”
alowing and creating are two different things. I may not fully understand how evil is present. How God planned his plans before the world began. But God did not create man to be cast in hell or to show his wrath…He indured the vessels fitted for destruction with much longsuffering, but he did not create man to be destroyed, nor does he take pleasure in thier death.
That is what is wrong with the quotes from Sproul Jr, he ignores other scripture to have God delighting in the death of the wicked.
Cadis on 07 Sep 2008 at 6:32 pm #
Wm Tanksley,
“Now, a distinct issue: I finally thought of an explanation for something that’s been bugging me: why it’s important to say that God is not the author of evil. The important thing is that no person ever look back on an evil deed they did and say, “well, God authorized that.” No, He did not. He forbade it.
His plan for the world includes the existence of evil (we must all agree), but the purpose of evil in His plan is NOT so that people would do it; the purpose of evil in His plan is to be conquered by God, Christ, and His Body. Anyone committing evil is violating God’s purpose.”
That just negated every post you made prior
????
Wm Tanksley on 07 Sep 2008 at 7:12 pm #
Romans 9 addresses Pharaoh: “for this purpose I have raised you up.” The purpose: to demonstrate His power. Pharaoh was evil. He ignored the word of God, even in the face of miracles. He “touched the apple of God’s eye”. Yet God raised him up! And this tells us to read that as meaning that God raised him up in order to have him do evil, so that God could conquer the evil for His glory.
Now, I do want to mention that I don’t agree with Sproul that St.Paul is claiming that God wanted to do this “to show His wrath”. St. Paul is asking a question, not making a positive statement. But the reason he’s asking that question IS to offer a possible explanation for God wanting to raise up an evil person: what if He wanted to do it in order to demonstrate His wrath? Now, we can’t be dogmatic with a rhetorical question; we could claim that there’s some OTHER reason He raises up evil people. But we can’t call people heretics for accepting St.Paul’s explanation.
And above all, we can’t claim that God didn’t raise up those people. He most certainly DID. St. Paul is quoting from many other verses!
You mean “contradicted”. No, the contradiction is only present in your (mis)interpretation of my statements. I speak truly, and you agree (I know) that God is not to blame for people’s evil actions. But I also speak truly when I say that people’s evil actions don’t take God by surprise. He knew; he planned for them, from before time. Did he know all about Judas? Well, he could have. I think He did.
Cadis on 07 Sep 2008 at 8:23 pm #
Wm,
“You mean “contradicted”.
No I didn’t. I couldn’t summon the correct word. Still can’t.
vangelicmonk on 08 Sep 2008 at 12:30 am #
I have to say that the one thing I am most disturbed by is that this book is published in 1999 and we barely know about it now. I barely know about R Jr.’s position now? That is so weird. Considering that I tackled this issue around 2003 to 2006 and I came out Moderate and probably more Arminian from where I started (essentially I believe it is possible for someone to lose their salvation).
I have to echo what most people are saying. I believe this to be hyper-Calvinism. Despite the best arguments from what some on the comment page are making. From those defending RCS Jr, please provide for me another Calvinist Theologian who clearly has no issue and endorses the idea that God is the author of Evil. From what I understand most (if not almost all) Reformed Theologians will dance around it and/or deny that God is the author of Evil.
Although I think this is the logical conclusion of Reformed thought, I do respect those like RCS Sr who left that conclusion toward mystery.
As far as the debate going on in the comment page. I think this would be a great post to debate in the Theologica. Moreover, I think people should better define their terms. Especially what they mean by evil.
I’m no master Theologian or Philosopher, but it would seem that evil could be one of two things:
1) Evil is the deprivation or the absence of good. The classical Thomist view.
a. If this is true then evil comes about by God “allowing (permitting) the possibility of evil” through man’s free actions.
i. This seems to be Jonathan Edwards view.
b. God (John Marks above comment) actively or directly brings sin about.
2) Or as RCS Jr. and Wm Tanksley’s view that Evil is created indirectly when God directly “creates sin” through Adam. Whether you agree with RCS Jr that it was so God could delight in His wrath or not, lets just focus on the “evil/sin” issue specifically.
a. So please correct me if you think this break down is incorrect. So RCS Jr. does not believe that God allows the possibility or moves upon one the will to Sin after the fall of Adam, but creates a sin nature (the desire to sin) in Adam, Eve, and the Devil before the Fall.
Please correct me if I am misunderstanding RCS Jr’s position or view and please tell me how that view compares and contrasts with scripture. That is so extra-Biblical it is scary. What does this say about Jesus when he is called the new Adam? This has far reaching ripple effects through all of the Gospel and the saying of Christ.
Wm Tanksley on 08 Sep 2008 at 9:10 am #
“No I didn’t. I couldn’t summon the correct word. Still can’t.”
Good enough :-). I’m still trying to cache this out myself.
We were discussing how although God created and purposed all things, and all actions, whether evil or not, he does NOT authorize any evil action, so that nobody is able to make the excuse, “I’m blameless, God was the one who made me do that act.”
Another way of putting my point, since you found it so confusing that you thought it was contradictory, would be to quote Jacob’s words: “You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.” God was behind the act of selling Jacob into slavery, but while it was an act of evil for the brothers, it is an act of good for God. Note that it doesn’t say that God _used_ the evil act for good; it says that God _meant_ the act for good. Before the act was carried out, the brothers purposed to do that act and their heart was evil; and before the act was carried out God purposed for them to do that act and His heart was good.
Yet another bit of support for my argument would be St.Paul’s words in Rom 9:19, where he has a rhetorical questioner make this exact excuse: “Hey, I couldn’t resist God’s will — how can He accuse me?” St. Paul’s answer is complicated, but any way you read the answer, you CAN’T read it as saying either that God is to blame, OR that God’s will doesn’t decree what acts of evil He will use to accomplish His purpose.
Wm Tanksley on 08 Sep 2008 at 9:29 am #
No, it’s not — read Edwards, “The Freedom of the Will” (available online, of course). He exhaustively examines possibilities to decide that the only Biblically and philosophically tenable option is that man’s will is determined by his nature, and God is the creator and controller of that nature.
God doesn’t create sin or evil, since those are not things. He does, however, ordain us to desire sin rather than righteousness, and He has ordained at least SOME people to do at least SOME acts of evil (most Calvinists, including Edwards, believe that God has ordained and directed ALL choices, and nothing, including evil action, is out of His control — but that’s more than this argument requires).
God has a plan. Nothing is outside of His plan, including evil. Yet every actor in His plan is accountable for its own actions.
I think the purpose of evil is to provide something for God and His people to gloriously defeat. I don’t know if God’s wrath is the purpose of evil; St.Paul suggests that it might be, but I think he’s only providing a possibility, not a certainty.
What IS a certainty is that you can’t call someone a heretic for taking St.Paul’s question seriously — although conversely, THEY can’t call anyone a heretic for doubting that perhaps God had some OTHER reason aside from wrath. The point St. Paul was making wasn’t that God told him that wrath was the purpose; the point was that God has a purpose for the evil that people do.
BTW, “hypercalvinism” is usually used to describe the soteriological heresy of fatalism: that because God predestines salvation, therefore it’s pointless to try to save people or even to try to act like a Christian. I think it’s a bad idea to twist the term out of its usual meaning.
Wm Tanksley on 08 Sep 2008 at 11:55 am #
Some more, after close reading:
Not that I can see. That’s certainly not what I believe.
I do believe that God had a plan of salvation before He created Adam, which means that he knew that Adam would fall, which implies that he knew what Adam would do. Furthermore, since He did not stop that, He for some reason intended it. Since He is all-wise, He had a reason for doing that.
This doesn’t imply that Adam had a sin nature before the fall. It simply means that God created him planning that he would fall (and obtain a sin nature).
I see why that conclusion (the creation of Adam with a sin nature) would be scary. Fortunately, it’s not a conclusion you can force onto the quote, at least not without evidence that the author intended it, since there are many interpretations that do NOT require such a horrid contradiction.
Anyhow, the Biblical reason Christ is called the New Adam isn’t that He’s like Adam in all ways; it’s that He’s like Adam in His representation of us.
vangelicmonk on 08 Sep 2008 at 2:17 pm #
Wm Tanksley
Man’s will is determined by his nature and God is controller of that nature.
Man’s nature is to sin (after the fall) so God controls man’s will to sin.
Adam’s will is determined by his nature and God is controller of that nature.
Adam’s nature is not to sin (before the fall), but Adam sinned.
Would it not conclude that God controlled Adam’s nature to go against its normal and natural direction?
Also you said that God did not create evil or sin. Fair enough and I agree. However, Paul quotes RCS Jr directly saying “I’m not accusing God of sinning; I’m suggesting that He created sin” (p. 54).
Now it would probably be best for us to get or check out the book and try to read that statement in its context. However, I am taking Paul Copan at what he seems to be trying to understand. I don’t know if you have the book or not. However, if that isn’t what RCS Jr means isn’t that just bad wording on his part. Also if that isn’t what he means then what did he mean? (I’m assuming you have the book and could you please quote from other passages to clarify what he means?).
Wm Tanksley on 08 Sep 2008 at 6:16 pm #
No. The Bible does not say that “Adam’s nature was not to sin,” nor do I make that claim. Augustine claims that Adam was by nature capable of not sinning, but was also capable of sinning; in practice, we don’t know whether he was actually capable of not sinning, because he *did*. All we know is that unlike us, there was a time when he was not a slave to sin — and yet he chose to serve sin and die to righteousness anyhow.
My point is that God did not need to control Adam against his will; He created Adam’s nature according to His design. If God had wanted to create men who couldn’t sin, He could create them already united with His Son (or some other way I don’t know). For some reason, God chose to create men who fell, so that He could redeem some and punish others.
What bad wording are you talking about? There are a few disconnected passages, which one are you suspecting is bad? I think his meaning is clear enough, and it looks like he’s simply paraphrasing Romans 9. If he’s making any error, it’s assuming that St. Paul meant the rhetorical question Romans 9 as a statement of revelation when it’s actually a statement of possibility — but you can’t claim he’s a heretic for saying something that Scripture also said.
Again, can someone please explain how what he said differs from Romans 9:22?
vangelicmonk on 08 Sep 2008 at 6:29 pm #
The bad wording I am talking about is:
Paul Copan quotes RCS Jr directly saying “I’m not accusing God of sinning; I’m suggesting that He created sin” (p. 54).
You state that God has not created sin or evil. Therefore, you seem to disagree with RCS Jr. What Does RCS Jr. mean by this other than it’s plain meaning? Why would he pick those words?
Wm Tanksley on 08 Sep 2008 at 10:59 pm #
Thank you. Good question.
I don’t know what sense RCJr wanted that to be read, but it seems we have to read it to exclude God committing evil or sin. He could be saying that God is ultimately responsible for all evil, that all evil happens because He created all of its causes (as He is the ultimate cause of everything), and/or that He controls all evil, keeping it in check but nonetheless allowing it to happen in order to form an intentional part of His plan.
God created each of us. We say that even though God didn’t perform a miracle to knit me together in my mother’s womb; but the handicraft is His nonetheless. In a similar way, because God designs how, where, and by whom evil takes place, He creates it. Or that’s how I read it.
I think RC’s comments are intended to highlight God’s control of evil. He owns and controls it in every way — nothing, from the purest angel to the most depraved devil, is out of His control, even at its most rebellious.
Susan on 10 Sep 2008 at 10:58 pm #
Hi Paul, I heard you today with Hank Hanegraaff on the Bible Answer Man Program. I was so glad to hear you on discussing questions answered in your new book: When God Goes to Starbucks. That was a great interview! I may just have to have a copy of that book now. I’m always open to sharing the Gospel with people so I love this sort of guide to get me over the speed-bumps along the way…. so that I can get to the Gospel.
I hope that your book will become very popular now!
A Mind Awake » Blog Archive » Interesting Discussion on the Problem of Evil on 11 Sep 2008 at 7:16 am #
[...] is an interesting post over at Parchment and Pen about taking Calvinism too far and a good post on this subject at Between Two Worlds (an interview [...]
Wm Tanksley on 11 Sep 2008 at 11:44 am #
It’s been two days… Looks like this is dying down.
I don’t think it’s appropriate to claim victory — in particular, no decent argument has been made FOR RCJr’s claim. But I do think the claim that he’s a heretic is completely hollow, and has been demonstrated to be so, until such time as someone can explain how his statements differ from St.Paul’s statements in Romans 9.
Jonathan on 11 Sep 2008 at 7:16 pm #
Wm, Tanksley, I see no resemblance between Sproul Jr. and Paul (Rm 9). Will you unpack the similarity? The only resemblance I sort of see seems to rest in the mind of a reader imposing his western narrative on the text of a 1st century document written to 1st century Greco/Judeo folks. Read any Witherington?
It’s unwise to suggest that because God is sovereign He is therefore the direct cause of every single event in life. God is not the author of evil! In terms of sovereignty, God prior to creation, saw it fit to actualize this possible world. He could have created a different world, one with different people and consequences but He saw it good to create the one we know. There are better ways to discuss sovereignty than to attribute all events to God. Sovereignty is not synonymous with causation.
“In Hebrew thought they have this extraordinarily strong sense of divine sovereignty in which everything that happens in a sense can be attributed to God. But they don’t see this as antithetical or exclusive of human freedom by any means. A beautiful illustration of this is the story of Saul’s suicide in 2 Samuel and Chronicles. In Samuel it describes Saul as he sees the Philistines about to take him and so in order to avoid capture by the Philistines Saul falls on his own sword and commits suicide. In the Chronicles account we have the same story with Saul committing suicide but the Chronicler adds this commentary, “thus the Lord slew Saul” (1 Chronicles 10:14).”
And so there is a sense that both Saul and God are responsible for the suicide - Saul more directly of course. Part of this Jewish manner seems to be an understanding of God’s directive will (a will in which he is the effective cause of an event) and a permissive will (a will in which he permits the acts of his creation).
There are countless Jewish examples of this in scripture. We might remember the Joseph story where he acknowledges both the will of men and God. And I quote, “”As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive” (Gen 50:20). I don’t think we want to interpret a Jewish understanding of sovereignty in such a way as to obliterate human free agency thereby relieving men from responsibility. The Jews didn’t, why should we? Joseph seemed to understand that it was his brothers who sold him into slavery but that God used it for a greater purpose.
Jonathan on 11 Sep 2008 at 7:20 pm #
Can anyone see the incoherence in stating both that God and Saul are the direct cause of one specified event?
Paul Copan on 12 Sep 2008 at 7:55 am #
Wow, this blog posting has taken on a life of its own! Lots of fascinating comments here. Thanks for your contributions. I obviously can’t respond to these numerous comments. I’ll try to pinpoint a few that, in my estimation, could use a response.
For those who may wonder if I’ve cited Sproul Jr. accurately, keep in mind that what I heard at first sounded so troubling that I wanted to check it out for myself. So I would encourage any doubters about this to do the same. I give a number of quotations from Sproul Jr. in order to make my point. (And let me add that the quotation by Sproul Sr. does indeed imply libertarian freedom. That seems evident.)
Bethyada, I try to address the question of Jesus’ temptation in “That’s Just Your Interpretation” and “Loving Wisdom.” I argue that, as part of his mission, gave up having access to the knowledge that it was impossible for him to sin so that he could truly endure the trials of temptation—not as mere play-acting.
Robert Booth, I was surprised to hear you say that I was “slandering” R.C. Sproul Jr.; indeed, I think it unfair. I was quite measured in my response and allowed his words to speak for themselves. Did God create evil? No, I made reference to 1 Tim. 4—that everything God creates is GOOD. The point is the same in James 1. Where did evil come from? It arose from creatures abusing their own God-given freedom. Is that terse enough? There is a difference between God’s permitting evil and creating evil. This is borne out by the possibility that people can—like Israel’s religious leaders—“reject God’s purpose for themselves” (Lk. 7:30).
Some of the comments made on the goodness of God being at stake are quite right. We do not want to attribute evil to God, which is the very point James 1 is making. Every good and perfect gift comes from God, and we shouldn’t consider God as the source of evil in any way.
As for Romans 9, yes, God can work through “vessels of wrath” like Pharaoh. If such vessels persist in their defiance and resist God’s grace (Acts. 7:51), then the outcome However, Paul uses this same language in 2 Tim. 2:21. “Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.” As long as people rebel and disobey God, then they are appointed to doom (1 Pet. 2:8). But if they turn and respond to God’s initiating grace, then they become part of God’s elect people. Let’s also keep in mind God’s great exasperation when he does everything he can and expects fruit from his people, but it doesn’t come (e.g., the song of the vineyard in Isa. 5: “what more was there to do for My vineyard than had been done in it?”). Jesus expects and gives opportunity for the prophetess Jezebel and her followers to repent, but she refuses. As Revelation 2:21 reads: “I gave her time to repent; and she does not want to repent of her immorality.” Indeed, if God commands all people everywhere (not just the elect) to repent, as Paul says in Acts 17, surely he must give them grace to do so.
Finally, Susan, thanks for your comments. I’m glad you got to hear me on the Bible Answer Man program. I hope the book *When God Goes to Starbucks* will be a good tool for people grappling with those difficult questions I’m tackling.
Thanks to you all for your engaging comments and discussion. There’s a lot to take in here. That’s why I blog just once a month!
Paul Copan on 12 Sep 2008 at 9:18 am #
One correction to the typo above (third-to-last paragraph)–an accidental deletion:
As for Romans 9, yes, God can work through “vessels of wrath” like Pharaoh. If such vessels persist in their defiance and resist God’s grace (Acts. 7:51), then the outcome is wrath. Paul, however, uses ….
johnMark on 12 Sep 2008 at 10:48 am #
Paul,
I can’t help but wonder if something is being missed in the definition of terms as Steve Hays pointed out.
Where did evil come from? It arose from creatures abusing their own God-given freedom.
Does “arose” mean created here? Did people create evil out of good? What are you saying exactly? Who would the source be here? And the source of that?
I think this is one of the complaints with your initial post. You leveled a charge against Sproul, Jr. and yet didn’t offer a solution.
As for Romans 9, yes, God can work through “vessels of wrath” like Pharaoh. If such vessels persist in their defiance and resist God’s grace (Acts. 7:51), then the outcome is wrath.
Not only “can” God work through vessels of wrath, but He “does.” In Romans 9 Paul doesn’t tell us that the persistence of Pharoah’s defiance lead to wrath. Paul tells us that it was God’s purpose to use Pharoah to proclaim His name. Also, see Assyria.
Let’s also keep in mind God’s great exasperation when he does everything he can and expects fruit from his people, but it doesn’t come
Unless you’re an open theist or hold to process theology wouldn’t this just be an anthropomorphism?
Indeed, if God commands all people everywhere (not just the elect) to repent, as Paul says in Acts 17, surely he must give them grace to do so.
Isn’t this the same or similar logic to what Sproul, Jr. is using? Just assume the what we think the logic bears out by observation aside from God’s revelation?
Thanks,
Mark
Wm Tanksley on 12 Sep 2008 at 5:08 pm #
No problem, although it seems to me that if someone’s going to make charges of heresy it’s up to them to prove the difference, rather than up to the accused to prove their innocence.
It’s also hard for me to “explain the similarity”, since the two claims are so similar; it’s like being asked to prove that zero is equal to zero. Fortunately, I have in fact proven that 0=0 in my abstract algebra class, so I think I’m up to this ;-). I personally think you’re being a bit hyperbolic when you claim to see “no similarity”; you have to see SOME.
The similarity is apparent in Rom 9:17-18, where Paul says that God “raised up” Pharaoh and hardened him in his evil. Thus, God designed Pharaoh and then hardened him — thus God caused the results that came of Pharaoh’s evil actions, including the suffering they caused. A few verses later a pushback appears; St.Paul imagines someone objecting that if God has willed all the acts of evil, then nobody could possibly be guilty of evil. This constructed pushback indicates that St.Paul expects people to conclude that God attributes moral evil to people even though those specific people were irresistibly willed to perform those morally evil acts by God; and St.Paul’s reply doesn’t object in any way to that conclusion, but instead claims that God has his own good reasons; as one possibility St.Paul offers that God might want to do that in order to show His wrath. The latter possibility is advanced by RCJr as a generalization: he claims that in general, all evil exists because God wants to display His wrath on it.
Thus, we see two direct points of similarity: that God is responsible for the presence of evil, and that God made it be present for a purpose: specifically, for the purpose of wrath (I don’t see RCJr claiming that wrath is the only purpose, just that it’s a generally applicable purpose). To explain God’s responsibility for the presence of evil, RCJr uses the word “created”, which seems reasonable in comparison to how we explain God’s responsibility for the existence of matter.
Although I agree that St. Paul wasn’t a modernist, you also have to agree that he wasn’t a postmodernist; he makes many logical arguments, and although he uses argument forms that we wouldn’t use commonly (for example, I think a fortiriori is rare nowadays), he nonetheless depends on basic logic.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that you’ll have to be more specific if you hope to convince me :-).
Nope. I just now read the Amazon.com reviews for his book on Romans; it looks to be very interesting.
RCJr didn’t claim he was — he said He’s the creator of all things, including evil things, and the disposer of all actions and motives, including evil actions and motives, and that everything serves His good purpose, including evil things, actions, and motives.
I agree, and appears to as well. But Joseph says much more than you claim; he says not that God used it for good, but that God _meant_ it for good. I read this to mean that before Joseph’s brothers ever threw him into a well, God meant for them to do it, and He meant it in order to bring about His redemptive purpose.
The error so many fall into is understanding “human free agency” in a way that undermines the sovereignty of God. They are perfectly compatible — unless you insist that if God disposes our actions, we are not accountable for them. But St.Paul contradicts this in Romans 9:19-22; he says that even if God set you up to fall, you are still responsible for your fall (or more accurately, he says that being set up to fall is not a sufficient excuse for having fallen).
Human free agency (in a libertarian sense) is NOT required in order to earn condemnation. Nor is free agency required in order to earn salvation. God saves those whom He wills, and whom he wills He hardens.
Wm Tanksley on 12 Sep 2008 at 5:55 pm #
“Can anyone see the incoherence in stating both that God and Saul are the direct cause of one specified event?”
No. Can you? God is the direct cause of my body’s coming into existence (He’s given full credit for forming me), and the biochemical processes in my mother’s womb are also given full credit for my body coming into existence. Both are true at the same time; there’s no inherent contradiction.
Jonathan on 12 Sep 2008 at 6:37 pm #
Wm Tanksley, the Witherington shout out serves to dispose of the “means what it says, says what it means” hermeneutic. Again, my argument is that we ought not primarily be governed by word studies (you write: he says not that God used it for good, but that God _meant_ it for good) – unless we’re prepared to accept an incoherent theology (see God/Saul/suicide above). A meta-narrative resembles more the 1st century writer. And yes I’d recommend Witherington’s Romans commentary. Peace
Jonathan on 13 Sep 2008 at 1:39 am #
Wm Tanksley, unless you’re a materialist, I’m at least puzzled by your suggestion that God and biochemical processes are causally responsible for my existence. Beyond that, your example has no relation whatsoever to my earlier point about God and Saul. I was examining two separate Hebrew accounts of the same story attempting to make sense of an apparent contradiction. One account states that Saul commits suicide; the other states that “the Lord slew Saul.” Which is correct? In my view, there is an explicit contradiction teetering toward incoherence or this is a Hebraic way of distinguishing God’s permission for human freedom. Reread my longer post above. Take care
Wm Tanksley on 13 Sep 2008 at 5:12 pm #
An argument serves better to dispose of an argument than a shout-out does. I do respect what Witherington appears to be saying, though, since it is VERY important to understand both the cultural and intentional context of any communication, Romans included.
Nonetheless, the words are relatively clear; the cultural context is very unclear. If the words can engender reasonable arguments, surely then the cultural context even more so.
Although we should always be ready to hear a culturally-based argument, we should be wary of overturning doctrines based on such, and we should be totally against declaring heresy based only on cultural arguments. And the declaration of heresy is what I’m arguing against.
After all, we have (close to) the original text. We don’t have anything close to the original culture. We barely have clues.
What are you talking about? Culture won’t magically remove apparent contradictions in the text! The text actually says both things; it’s not a word study saying both things. A cultural understanding — which we cannot POSSIBLY have dating that far back, by the way — won’t help you if you aren’t willing to try to resolve the tension (or simply allow it to remain).
The only Biblical resolution is to conclude that both God and Saul are in some way responsible for Saul’s death. Different churches explain the responsibility in different ways. The only ones that are heretical are the ones that DENY one of the texts entirely — the fatalists who deny all human responsibility, or the extreme humanists who deny God’s power. Neither heretical side is being displayed here.
Is this a parody of postmodernism? “A meta-narrative resembles …a writer.”??? What??? I studied postmodernism under an ordinary guy who happened to be a convinced postmodernist, and he never said anything like that. I don’t even know what it has to do with the discussion.
I’m puzzled. Do you think materialists attribute responsibility to God? Because you clearly say that I do.
God created me (the individual now talking to you). He designed me and even knit me in my mother’s womb. I praise Him for that. He did all that through the means of chemical processes operating under orderly laws, as well as “coincidental” events. All of those means were entirely under His control, and may have been decreed from before the beginning of time (I don’t press that point, I don’t know).
Why can’t both be correct? God could have slewn Saul by a lightning bolt from a clear sky, but He didn’t. If he’d done that, the atheists would have claimed that lightning bolts sometimes come from clear skies for no reason. If God had slain Saul with a lightning bolt from a cloudy sky, some would have assumed it was just coincidence. If God has slain Saul by instantly driving him mad, causing him to decide to stab himself, the atheist would assume God didn’t exist and Saul was just crazy. Instead God pressured Saul until even a reasonable person could conceivably despair, and so God slew Saul.
You can dive headfirst into philosophy if you want, and declaim about human freedom, but the Bible doesn’t go there, so we can’t declare heresy when someone disagrees from us on that point. What’s certain is that God can and did act through the decisions of some people, according to His determinate purpose. Whether those people were free in their will is a different argument, and not really a Biblical one.
Do you think that Pharaoh was forced by God to act against his will when God hardened his heart? Do you think that when men executed the Son of God “by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God”, they were acting against their will? I don’t think so; I think human will and divine sovereignty are totally compatible.
If you disagree, YOU have to deal with the question of who killed Saul, and how God could have foreknown Christ’s murder without foreknowing that there would be murderers, and how Pharaoh could have been both evil and raised up by God on purpose.
There’s no retreat in simply saying that it’s cultural, UNLESS you’re also saying that one of the verses is merely a cultural token (i.e. they didn’t really mean it, like when an insurance company talks about “acts of God” in their contract). All we can learn by talking about culture is that either one verse is not factual, OR that there exists some way of reconciling the two verses. And that choice is a logical necessity.
-Wm
Wm Tanksley on 13 Sep 2008 at 10:55 pm #
Paul, thank you for your engaging, challenging post. Although I disagree with your point, you make it in a respectful manner. Some of the commenters have taken it much too far in deducing heresy rather than simple error. (Again, I don’t think it’s either, but I’m taking the simpler point of defending against the heresy charge.)
With this post I’ll take on not just defending RCJr against this heresy charge, but also whether the general doctrine he’s teaching is actually correct.
More accurately, it *allows* libertarian freedom, specifically for unfallen man (it doesn’t require it). RC Sr. clearly does NOT believe in libertarian freedom after the fall. I haven’t heard any preaching by RCJr, but I have listened to a fair amount of RCSr.
Paul was talking about purity and impurity, as Peter had been told. The fact that nails are good and driving nails is good doesn’t mean that driving them through Jesus’ hands was good.
Yet… at the same time that driving nails through Jesus’ hands was an act of untold evil, the fact that those nails were going through Jesus’ hands was exactly what God planned, and it was not just good, but perfect.
It is terse, but you’re not quoting James. James didn’t talk about freedom. He did talk about desires. Evil acts come not from “abuse of freedom”, but from following our own desires. This is the point of compatibilism: that our desires are part of us, something that God created as he created each of us. Just as a Down’s Syndrome child was created by God, so also a lost sinner is created by God, and in both cases God knew the sadness that would result, and that sadness is part of God’s plan.
As I’ve said before, you can’t tell a good story without a villain, and even a dragon. Good can exist without evil (that’s God), but you can’t tell a story about good without contrasting it to evil.
Were they free to reject or accept God’s purpose for themselves? No. They did so “because they had not been baptized by John.” Sounds like either God had no control over who John happened to baptize, or He set up the religious leaders to not be able to accept His purpose for them. If God didn’t have control, though, who did?