Comments on: Why Virginia Left Christianity After 23 Years: An Illustration of Cognitive Dissonance http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/why-virginia-left-christianity-after-23-years-an-illustration-of-cognitive-dissonance/ Making Theology Accessible Sun, 21 Mar 2010 10:42:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Vladimir http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/why-virginia-left-christianity-after-23-years-an-illustration-of-cognitive-dissonance/comment-page-1/#comment-4574 Vladimir Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:26:52 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=513#comment-4574 Sometimes the only Bible people will read is Y-O-U. Valdimir Sometimes the only Bible people will read is Y-O-U.

Valdimir

]]> By: britphil http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/why-virginia-left-christianity-after-23-years-an-illustration-of-cognitive-dissonance/comment-page-1/#comment-4573 britphil Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:24:22 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=513#comment-4573 "Jared nails it. Every professing Christian here should be appalled and squirming in his or her pew. Where was the Christ’s church when Virginia came to them? Why did she experience nothing but hypocrisy? Where was the Love that is supposed to be the first fruit of the Holy Spirit?" "Ouch! There it is again. Hypocrisy. I hate this. Christians often make the worst Christians, I know. But does this provide evidence that Christ did not raise from the dead? Does hypocrisy have a stranglehold on truth?!" Michael. No. I don't believe Christian hypocrisy negates the fact that Christ rose from the dead, but it sure does blunt its impact big style. Don't get me wrong, we are all capable of it, me as much as anyobne else, but it is when such hypocrisy is so blindingly obvious to non-Christians or those who are struggling with their faith that it can become the biggst bar to continuing in the faith, or coming to faith at all. On the community issue, I think there is a necessary see-change taking place in the church. There are many people who will actually need to "belong" before they "believe" asnd should be encouraged. We are so set in our exclusivist church membership systems of believng before you can belong, or even worse , believing this, this ,this oh yes and this too and only then you can belong! Yes, of course there is a danger of belonging and not believing but I think there is another equally as dangerous issue, the issue we often shirk, that of "believing", but not really belonging. The hypocrisy issue raises the prospect that there may be many in our churches who "believe" (by all outward indicators) but don't actually belong. “Jared nails it. Every professing Christian here should be appalled and squirming in his or her pew. Where was the Christ’s church when Virginia came to them? Why did she experience nothing but hypocrisy? Where was the Love that is supposed to be the first fruit of the Holy Spirit?”

“Ouch! There it is again. Hypocrisy. I hate this. Christians often make the worst Christians, I know. But does this provide evidence that Christ did not raise from the dead? Does hypocrisy have a stranglehold on truth?!”

Michael.

No. I don’t believe Christian hypocrisy negates the fact that Christ rose from the dead, but it sure does blunt its impact big style. Don’t get me wrong, we are all capable of it, me as much as anyobne else, but it is when such hypocrisy is so blindingly obvious to non-Christians or those who are struggling with their faith that it can become the biggst bar to continuing in the faith, or coming to faith at all.

On the community issue, I think there is a necessary see-change taking place in the church. There are many people who will actually need to “belong” before they “believe” asnd should be encouraged. We are so set in our exclusivist church membership systems of believng before you can belong, or even worse , believing this, this ,this oh yes and this too and only then you can belong!

Yes, of course there is a danger of belonging and not believing but I think there is another equally as dangerous issue, the issue we often shirk, that of “believing”, but not really belonging.

The hypocrisy issue raises the prospect that there may be many in our churches who “believe” (by all outward indicators) but don’t actually belong.

]]> By: Rampert http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/why-virginia-left-christianity-after-23-years-an-illustration-of-cognitive-dissonance/comment-page-1/#comment-4572 Rampert Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:32:40 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=513#comment-4572 Hi Scott.. saw your post and felt the need to clarify my position. I don’t know about the others who had responded - but let me please speak for myself. Like Virginia, I too came to Christ at a point of crisis – though my situation was different. I was a professional musician, an agnostic, given to lapses into alcoholism and drug abuse. I perceived my condition as bondage since the good that I wanted to do I was mostly unable to do and compulsive behaviors that shackled me I was unable to escape. I came to Christ and I experienced the forgiveness of sins and freedom from the things that once held me captive. In my journey, I have found that to a Christian, a return to past patterns of behavior is not impossible. I have been amazed time and time again to see that I have a propensity to desire the things that can potentially destroy me. I have however found another fact. I have a Friend in all this who holds me when I skid and heals me when I fall. Well, I have experienced His never failing forgiveness and emotional/physical/spiritual restoration during the past thirty years and the demons of the past are but a faint memory now. I know what I am capable of and I see no other hope outside of the solution offered by Christ. This is the backdrop to my post. Regards Rampert Hi Scott.. saw your post and felt the need to clarify my position. I don’t know about the others who had responded – but let me please speak for myself. Like Virginia, I too came to Christ at a point of crisis – though my situation was different. I was a professional musician, an agnostic, given to lapses into alcoholism and drug abuse. I perceived my condition as bondage since the good that I wanted to do I was mostly unable to do and compulsive behaviors that shackled me I was unable to escape. I came to Christ and I experienced the forgiveness of sins and freedom from the things that once held me captive. In my journey, I have found that to a Christian, a return to past patterns of behavior is not impossible. I have been amazed time and time again to see that I have a propensity to desire the things that can potentially destroy me. I have however found another fact. I have a Friend in all this who holds me when I skid and heals me when I fall. Well, I have experienced His never failing forgiveness and emotional/physical/spiritual restoration during the past thirty years and the demons of the past are but a faint memory now. I know what I am capable of and I see no other hope outside of the solution offered by Christ. This is the backdrop to my post.
Regards
Rampert

]]> By: Scott Ferguson http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/why-virginia-left-christianity-after-23-years-an-illustration-of-cognitive-dissonance/comment-page-1/#comment-4571 Scott Ferguson Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:02:46 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=513#comment-4571 Most of these comments seem to run like Rampert's, to wit: <i>If she had seen in truth the depravity of the sinful nature...</i>. I am taken aback by the need to blame Virginia. The undertone of self-congratulation masquerading as sin-soaked humility is almost palpable. Most of the commenters are content to sit back and theorize about why she was never "one of us" and therefore remain comfortable. Jared nails it. Every professing Christian here should be appalled and squirming in his or her pew. Where was the Christ's church when Virginia came to them? Why did she experience nothing but hypocrisy? Where was the Love that is supposed to be the first fruit of the Holy Spirit? If you believe that the Bride of Christ is his instrument in the world then she has a lot of 'splainin' to do when Ricky gets home. I know the response I am likely to get: She was probably shown God's love but her heart was hardened to the <i>real</i> Gospel. How convenient. Most of these comments seem to run like Rampert’s, to wit: If she had seen in truth the depravity of the sinful nature…. I am taken aback by the need to blame Virginia. The undertone of self-congratulation masquerading as sin-soaked humility is almost palpable. Most of the commenters are content to sit back and theorize about why she was never “one of us” and therefore remain comfortable.

Jared nails it. Every professing Christian here should be appalled and squirming in his or her pew. Where was the Christ’s church when Virginia came to them? Why did she experience nothing but hypocrisy? Where was the Love that is supposed to be the first fruit of the Holy Spirit?

If you believe that the Bride of Christ is his instrument in the world then she has a lot of ’splainin’ to do when Ricky gets home.

I know the response I am likely to get: She was probably shown God’s love but her heart was hardened to the real Gospel. How convenient.

]]> By: Vijai http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/why-virginia-left-christianity-after-23-years-an-illustration-of-cognitive-dissonance/comment-page-1/#comment-4570 Vijai Tue, 19 Aug 2008 17:51:03 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=513#comment-4570 Michael- It is interesting that she took the time to write to you. An atheist who simply wants to trump a Christian apologist? I do not think so. I agree with Ranger's post on most points. But I do think she is lacking something in her newfound faith in scientism and hence the email. CS Lewis said that God constantly changes our ideas and notions of himself and that this is a painful process. For Virginia to know God as someone more than the god of the gaps or the reason for community it would necessarily take a lot of soul-searching. Who among us knows if this could happen to us? After all God is inexhaustible as the fount of wisdom. I believe we should pray for her committing herself to Christ. Michael- It is interesting that she took the time to write to you. An atheist who simply wants to trump a Christian apologist? I do not think so.

I agree with Ranger’s post on most points. But I do think she is lacking something in her newfound faith in scientism and hence the email.

CS Lewis said that God constantly changes our ideas and notions of himself and that this is a painful process. For Virginia to know God as someone more than the god of the gaps or the reason for community it would necessarily take a lot of soul-searching. Who among us knows if this could happen to us? After all God is inexhaustible as the fount of wisdom. I believe we should pray for her committing herself to Christ.

]]> By: Rampert http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/why-virginia-left-christianity-after-23-years-an-illustration-of-cognitive-dissonance/comment-page-1/#comment-4569 Rampert Mon, 18 Aug 2008 08:50:45 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=513#comment-4569 To me it seems to be a sad case of a “Pilgrim’s Regress.” In over 20 years of Christian service, I have seen many come to Christ seeking relief from their immediate predicament – health needs, family crisis etc. I do not doubt their sincerity. However, the reason Jesus came was not for aiding people who are going through crises but to save them from their sins. Some unfortunately never get to see sin for what it is. I read somewhere that Martin Luther had made the statement “sinner is my name; sinner is my surname.” Having seen our sinful nature like that, the cross of Christ becomes our only hope. Thereafter the situation becomes “where else can we go?” Maybe Virginia had never got to see herself as a hopeless sinner in need of a Savior – she had definitely sought God as a refuge in times of trouble. If she had seen in truth the depravity of the sinful nature the situation probably may have ended differently. To me it seems to be a sad case of a “Pilgrim’s Regress.” In over 20 years of Christian service, I have seen many come to Christ seeking relief from their immediate predicament – health needs, family crisis etc. I do not doubt their sincerity. However, the reason Jesus came was not for aiding people who are going through crises but to save them from their sins. Some unfortunately never get to see sin for what it is. I read somewhere that Martin Luther had made the statement “sinner is my name; sinner is my surname.” Having seen our sinful nature like that, the cross of Christ becomes our only hope. Thereafter the situation becomes “where else can we go?” Maybe Virginia had never got to see herself as a hopeless sinner in need of a Savior – she had definitely sought God as a refuge in times of trouble. If she had seen in truth the depravity of the sinful nature the situation probably may have ended differently.

]]> By: Eric W http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/why-virginia-left-christianity-after-23-years-an-illustration-of-cognitive-dissonance/comment-page-1/#comment-4568 Eric W Fri, 15 Aug 2008 21:12:14 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=513#comment-4568 <i>A literal reading of Hebrews 6 says I am without hope but I keep hoping that it was not Christ whom I denied but the fundamentalist way of thinking.</i> There were several papers on Hebrews 6 at an ETS conference a few years ago (either San Antonio or Valley Forge, the two I've attended), and one of the more intriguing ones argued that parapiptô, since it's related to paraptôma (sin/trespass), should not be translated as "and then have fallen away" but "and then have sinned." One of the earliest church controversies had to do with Christians who had sinned after they had been baptized, and whether or not or how they could be received back into the church or whether or not they could be rebaptized. (The Nicene Creed says "I profess ONE baptism for the remission of sins," and that may relate to this idea that one can only be baptized once.) The context and language of the first few verses of Hebrews 6 lends itself to a sacramental and eucharistic and baptismal/initiatory understanding, esp. since "enlightened" was a term for baptism (I think Justin Martyr uses it), and the eating/tasting language is reminiscent of communion, and being made a partaker of the Holy Spirit relates to what would later be called chrismation. (The "parapiptô" presentation didn't say anything about what I just wrote re: sacramental language or the question of postbaptismal sin, IIRC, though.) A literal reading of Hebrews 6 says I am without hope but I keep hoping
that it was not Christ whom I denied but the fundamentalist way of thinking.

There were several papers on Hebrews 6 at an ETS conference a few years ago (either San Antonio or Valley Forge, the two I’ve attended), and one of the more intriguing ones argued that parapiptô, since it’s related to paraptôma (sin/trespass), should not be translated as “and then have fallen away” but “and then have sinned.”

One of the earliest church controversies had to do with Christians who had sinned after they had been baptized, and whether or not or how they could be received back into the church or whether or not they could be rebaptized. (The Nicene Creed says “I profess ONE baptism for the remission of sins,” and that may relate to this idea that one can only be baptized once.) The context and language of the first few verses of Hebrews 6 lends itself to a sacramental and eucharistic and baptismal/initiatory understanding, esp. since “enlightened” was a term for baptism (I think Justin Martyr uses it), and the eating/tasting language is reminiscent of communion, and being made a partaker of the Holy Spirit relates to what would later be called chrismation.

(The “parapiptô” presentation didn’t say anything about what I just wrote
re: sacramental language or the question of postbaptismal sin, IIRC, though.)

]]> By: Ruben http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/why-virginia-left-christianity-after-23-years-an-illustration-of-cognitive-dissonance/comment-page-1/#comment-4567 Ruben Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:13:43 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=513#comment-4567 I think in the end, it is mysterious - who stays and who leaves. I once left the faith (or what I thought the faith was) became an agnostic and God called me back. A literal reading of Hebrews 6 says I am without hope but I keep hoping that it was not Christ whom I denied but the fundamentalist way of thinking. I saw a movie on abortion (Lake of Fire) and the Christians they represented were of the cooky and downright scary variety, I don't blame anyone who leaves this kind of "faith". I think in the end, it is mysterious – who stays and who leaves. I once left the
faith (or what I thought the faith was) became an agnostic and God called me
back. A literal reading of Hebrews 6 says I am without hope but I keep hoping
that it was not Christ whom I denied but the fundamentalist way of thinking.
I saw a movie on abortion (Lake of Fire) and the Christians they represented
were of the cooky and downright scary variety, I don’t blame anyone who
leaves this kind of “faith”.

]]> By: A Cognitively Dissonant Faith « Samsen’s Blog http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/why-virginia-left-christianity-after-23-years-an-illustration-of-cognitive-dissonance/comment-page-1/#comment-4566 A Cognitively Dissonant Faith « Samsen’s Blog Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:29:44 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=513#comment-4566 [...] August 15, 2008 — samsen Over at Parchment and Pen, Michael Patton had an interesting post about a person Virginia who apparently was “de-converted” from Christianity after 23 years of cognitively [...] [...] August 15, 2008 — samsen Over at Parchment and Pen, Michael Patton had an interesting post about a person Virginia who apparently was “de-converted” from Christianity after 23 years of cognitively [...]

]]> By: Peter http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/08/why-virginia-left-christianity-after-23-years-an-illustration-of-cognitive-dissonance/comment-page-1/#comment-4565 Peter Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:47:37 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=513#comment-4565 I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I'm saying it doesn't always matter. Some people get married because they did all the marriage courses, compatibility courses, pre-marriage counciling etc. Others just get married with little forethought. Both are equally married. In the latter case they'll probably find stuff out later that the others found out earlier. In both cases, knowing your partner is "important", but its not a pre-requisite to being married. I use the marriage analogy, because we're talking about a relationship, not a university degree. The former you enter into and maybe, hopefully learn. The latter you can't get till you pass the exams. You're just as married whether the reasons you got in were good, bad or indifferent. I’m not saying it doesn’t matter, I’m saying it doesn’t always matter. Some people get married because they did all the marriage courses, compatibility courses, pre-marriage counciling etc. Others just get married with little forethought. Both are equally married. In the latter case they’ll probably find stuff out later that the others found out earlier. In both cases, knowing your partner is “important”, but its not a pre-requisite to being married.

I use the marriage analogy, because we’re talking about a relationship, not a university degree. The former you enter into and maybe, hopefully learn. The latter you can’t get till you pass the exams. You’re just as married whether the reasons you got in were good, bad or indifferent.

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